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An event in this article is a January 9 selected anniversary
Strictly speaking, Von Sanders(An ottoman Pasha even before World War) was the Turkish commander. I only included Germany as a combatant because they provided machine gunners and artillery(*false batteries over gallipoli was built by Abdulhamit II) . Also submarines, I guess, plus the German crews remained on the Breslau and Goeben even once they became Turkish vessels. Perhaps Germany's role in Gallipoli isn't big enough to warrant a "combatant" tag. If we include them, we probably should include Newfoundland and Malta and the Zion Mule Corps and so on for the Allied side. Gsl 06:33, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hamilton's leadership was distant & incompetent, & the ANZACs were little better. They went ashore against trivial opposition & stopped, evidently not aware (or concerned) their objective was to link up & defeat the Turks. Something needs to be said about this. Something also needs to be said about the poor planning & co-ordination that hamstrung the troops when they did land. Trekphiler 06:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
We also forget the Colonel Şefik Aker, Commander of the 27th Regiment -- 88.245.31.51 ( talk) 14:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this article is that the campaign is never called "the Battle of Gallipoli" in any of the combatant countries. In Britain it is called the Dardanelles Campaign and in Australia and New Zealand it is simply called Gallipoli, or sometimes the Gallipoli Landings. I don't know what it's called in France. I will note this in the intro para, but perhaps this title ought to be redirected. Adam 05:42, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm aware of that, but that doesn't make it the name of the battle. Is an encyclopaedia required to conform to reality or vice versa? Adam 06:10, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree it is an awkward choice. I said "perhaps" it ought to be redirected, but perhaps also it ought not. Adam 06:23, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I have no problems with amee foxs suggestion, but I think on further thought that the problem is that Gallipoli wasn't a "battle" at all, it was a campaign lasting several months, with a series of engagements but no single "battle." I could therefore argue that the Battle of Gallipoli article be dropped and its content shifted to Gallipoli (military campaign) or something like that. Adam 02:32, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree, Adam. Gallipoli campaign or Gallipoli (campaign) or something similar. It isn't called "the Battle of Gallipoli" by anyone, and it wasn't a battle, it was a whole series of them. From the point of view of link-friendliness, most people will want to just link it as Gallipoli, so Gallipoli (campaign) allows the pipe trick. On the other hand, Gallipoli campaign looks better. Or even (shock horror) Battle of Gallipoli? Whichever way you look at it. it's a curly one. Tannin 02:58, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Seems to me "Battle of Gallipoli" is inappropriate. It wasn't a single action, as "battle" implies, but a campaign. I agree, it's rarely called "Dardanelles Campaign", which would be correct; I'd suggest retitle the page & redirect via Gallipol links (the most common usage) from pages that are concerned with it. Others I'd say should go to a disambiguation page. Trekphiler 05:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Gallipoli should be a Campaign, not a Battle! As it is always called in Australia & New Zealand, while in Britain it is the Dardanelles Campaign (not Battle). While said to be against the Wiki naming policy, but the page dealing with the policy does not make any mention of Campaigns or Theatres in a War! Wiki has in WWI “the Sinai-Palestine Campaign” and in the American Civil War the Franklin-Nashville Campaign and the Trans- Mississippi Theatre. Are we going to call them the Sinai-Palestine Battle etc? Hugo999 12:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC) PS: this discussion started in 2004, why not do it!
Just to say that there is a little mistake in the introduction : in France, this battle has only been only known as the « Bataille des Dardanelles » (Dardanelles Battle) and Gallipoli has never been heard as a name for it. I let you change it in the article. Glotz 17:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have the Commonwealth War Graves Commission leaflet (ie an official leaflet): the title is The Gallipoli Campaign, 1915. It starts with a paragraph on the Naval attempt to force the Dardanelles in March 1915. Fred Waite's The New Zealanders at Gallipoli just refers to Gallipoli, but has references to individual battles: Battle of Krithia, Sari Bair, Lone Pine. Hugo999 10:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with most that calling it the "Battle of Gallipoli" is a bit of a misnomer, considering the majority terms used in other countries who participated in the battles of that campaign. "The Gallipoli Campaign" would be more apropos than as such as it is referred to now. Firstly, when you refer to maps regarding the battle, the only sight of the word "Gallipoli" is the town on the western shores of the Dardanelles on the northern part of the peninsula; there was never a battle there during this particular campaign that made this particular event to be known as such. Secondly, the peninsula as a whole is referred to "Gallipoli" (though not shown by cartography), making 'campaign' the proper term for this region of conflict during of WWI. IF one really wants to be technical about it, maybe it should be called the "Gallipoli Peninsula Campaign", but I think "Gallipoli Campaign" would be more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tom ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The Gallipoli campaign was just that - a 'campaign'. Not a battle. A campaign consists of many battles. Some of the battles fought during the Gallipoli campaign were 'The Landing', '1st Krithia', '2nd Krithia', 'Gully Ravine', 'Sari Bair' and 'Hill 60'. A battle could be further broken down into 'actions'. For example, during the Battle of Sari Bair, three well-known actions in Australia and New Zealand were 'Lone Pine', Chunuk Bair' and 'The Nek'. The 'Battles Nomenclature Committee' of the British government decided / decides on the names of battles, and to suggest that this aspect of history be overridden by Wikipedia guidelines seems presumptuous, to say the least. Hayaman ( talk) 11:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
May I just point out that I think this is a rather good article? :) Barneyboo 11:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree. Of all of Wikipedia's Battle pages, this one is exceptionally well written. Anon 8:29 02 Jun 2006 (UTC)
Remarks are too subjective.. and it is not Gallipoly.. Gallipoli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.195.7 ( talk) 02:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
It is an very good article; however, I think it would be more historically accurate to use the word Ottoman wherever possible, instead of "Turkish", except in relation to specific individuals (etc). That is to say, it's possible that two thirds of the Ottoman forces were Arab conscripts. Obviously there were many other ethnic groups in the empire as well. Check this interesting article at al Jazeera's website: "The forgotten Arabs of Gallipoli", by Jonathan Gorvett, 14 January 2004 [1] (By the way, the article doesn't mention that some Arabs -- Egyptians -- served as labourers with the Allied forces.) What do others think? Grant65 (Talk) 11:46, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
There was only one arab regiment at Gallipoli at the beginning(in 19.Division) then as far as I know it has taken back.But there was individual Arab officers. Aozgen54@yahoo.com
I've reverted the use of "Ottoman". If you wish to use "Ottoman" instead of "Turkish", please make the changes consistent through the entire article rather than in one isolated section. Also make the changes in all the sub-articles and the articles of the Sinai and Palestine campaign. Geoff/Gsl 00:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A single website does not convince me about the number of ethnic Arabs in the Ottoman army. That speculation should be removed until someone comes up with more credible references. Basarcenik 14:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable citation for the figures? Turkish Army now seems to say that the 253,000 figure includes all losses and the number of dead is around 60,000. Here's a link to an article discussing this (in Turkish): http://www.canakkale1915.com/sehitsayisi.htm
The numbers above are the most accurate. -- Murat ( talk) 04:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Arabs dind't fought at WWI for Ottoman empire. They joinned the British! see Lawrance of Arabia
It wasn't the German Wehrmacht, was it? Of course it consisted of various ethnic groups and minorities. Still it was the Turkish army, are you objecting to this? In tradition of previous Turkish states (like the Seljuk named after Selçuk Bey), Ottoman (Osman) is just the name of the bey who laid the foundations of the empire, it is not a name that signifies the unification of nations like "United Kingdom" or "United States of America". So what do you think you are actually doing by replacing Ottomans with Turks? What would you do if Turks didn't have such tradition, if it was just the Turkish Empire instead of Ottoman?-- 194.27.64.188 ( talk) 17:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually many young boys were sent from Istanbul itself, it is said that there was no family lef in Istanbul that did not send a son to the front. An Arab regiment I know is the 77th, that was supposed to cover the 27th and 57th of Colonel Şefik Aker and Mustafa Kemal but failed miserably in doing so. eae1983 -- 88.245.31.51 ( talk) 14:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Turkish is the right word. Repeat , Turkish is the right word..
Let me repeat the third time it is not Ottoman , it is Turkish. People is the matter not the corrupt government.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.195.7 ( talk) 02:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Thechncially Ottoman is the right name, but it is no great sin to use "Turk" as most of Europe and the World referred them by that name also.-- Murat ( talk) 04:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Look, if you don't think the link should be there, fine, take it out, but please indicate why in the edit comment. A simple "revert" just isn't appropriate for something that's not actually vandalism. -- Andrew 10:33, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
There are some rumours about a mysterious cloud, which should have kidnapped the 5th Norfolk on August 12th, 1915.
Nothing so exotic. A unit of a couple of hundred soldiers were seen to push on against weak opposition, became cut off and none returned in a campaign where most Allied dead were not identifed. The Graves Commission found the bodies in 1919. Reason the incident was more well known than other incidents was most of them were employed by the English Royal Family at the Sandringham Estate. See http://user.online.be/~snelders/sand.htm
Herne nz 09:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
A dramatic if not convincing film, with David Jason, not in this article though! Hugo999 12:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0220969/
No mystery here. These boys went too fast too far and were cut off. They chose to fight rather than surrender and all perished. A similar thing happened to a small Turkish unit too, having found themselves behind the French rear, fighting the cooks and the nurses, they managed to pull back in the "fog" of war with light losses.-- Murat ( talk) 04:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
A book on this matter was published about 15 years ago, name and author totally escape me. I have the impression, perhaps wrongly+, that rather more than 200 men were involved. However, a couple of points stick in my mind. First both the CO and his son (a platoon comd) were killed. Second a handful of men survived and returned home after the war. They reported what would now be called a major war crime. The Turks took a lot of prisoners and executed them on the spot, the handful who survived were saved by the intercession of a German officer. Nfe ( talk) 04:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
"The Ottoman Empire had been dismissed by Tsar Nicholas I of Russia as "the sick man of Europe" but after victory over the Allies at Gallipoli, Turkey's visions of the empire were renewed." It seems absurd to call turkish military operations as "visions of empire", especially in an article about a british millitary operation in the ottoman territory.
Can somebody identify who actually conceived the operation? It's credited to WSC, here; he didn't actually come up with it, only championed it (& I'd correct it if I knew more...). Trekphiler 05:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The actual genesis for the campaign for the "Dardanelles" was, indeed, Churchill as a part of a very high-level, conceptual aspriation bold enough to break the stalemate that had been created by trench warfare late in 1914 [1]. However, nothing substantive occurred until Secretary to the War Council, Maurice Hankey, suggested that an attack on Constantinople via the Dardanelles by navy and army (75,000 troops) would do the trick. As to the assertion that Churchill underestimated Turkish troop strength, that seems misplaced. It was "Kitchner's confidence in Turkish weakness [that] was the decisive factor in all that followed" [2]. Up to that time, Churchill had been a avid supporter of a strong ground force to consolidate the gains he expected from the initial naval campaign. emesselt ( talk) 01:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The casualty figures in the table on this page definitely don't add up on the total line. Why is there such an obvious error - that is inappropriate. It looks like there may need to be a range for the Turkish casualties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.189.181 ( talk) 19:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Why are there inconsistent casualty figures at the top and bottom of this page? The figures under casulaties look more plausible Nickhk 01:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)nickhk
I have to agree... I was very confused while reading the article. can anyone clarify this and make all numbers equal?
Ah, yes, I'll third the confusion... Samgra 08:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Consider it fourthed. The numbers in the box at the top right of the page seem idiotic. 700,000 turkish dead? 550,000 British empire and french dead? That cant be right. I thought it was about 10,000 apiece -- Will James 05:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I found the numbers. Here they are.
I got that from this site - http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-gallipoli.html . I'm new to the whole wikipedia thing so I'd apprecate it if someone else did the adding of casualty information. Remember to cite it if you need to. -- Will James 07:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The above seems to be the most realisitic. I do not think there is one resource that that gives all the figures accurately. France: 27K killed seems way too high, more likley 10K. 17K wounded. Newfoundland: 49 killed, 93 wounded. Ottomans: 57K battlefield dead, 18K more in the hospitals and disease, 92K wounded. From Turkish military archives. Actuals may be higher due to conditions of the country at the time. One day I will add all these up!-- Murat ( talk) 05:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think there are two issues: 1) What are the most accurate numbers, and 2) the sub(totals) in the table are wrong (the numbers do not add up). It should be easy to at least fix the second issue but perhaps someone should edit the table who's also been researching the right numbers? 212.186.105.130 ( talk) 00:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)dpk
Japanese Minister:
“The war which 6,000 bullets fell on each square meter,Turks were the victorious.You succeed an really impossible.You showed to all world the belief is victorous by challenge the latest technology and rigging.Moreover,the enemies were not one.Entente Powers were 72 nations who fighted with you.”
Note :More than 500,000 people lost their lives and Turkey lost all her quality labours.Therefore,Turkey couldnt close her quality labour needs for years and it influenced economy a lot... Inanna 23:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
we lost 4 million people again in our Independence war and our men population was 1 million and women population was 9 7 million when we got our independence.After all these Mustafa Kemal did great things to our country for our improvement.We are still here bacause of Mustafa Kemal.If he couldnt change the whole war in Gallipoli now you can see a British colonial empire and a republic of ottoman empire defeated by British Colonilization and emperialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.81.104 ( talk) 18:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Middle Eastern theatre of World War I#Rename? -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a trivia section about this campaign.. It can be a ".. in popular culture" section too.. -- Jack o lantern 18:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed an inconsistency in the article: in the intro, it is mentioned that an estimated 500 000 soldiers died, but in the table near the end of the article, it says no more than 130 000 soldiers were killed. Since the number of wounded troops is quite similar in the intro and in the table, I would tend to believe the number of deaths would be roughly 130 000. Plus, rare are the battles leaving more dead than wounded.
There is a Wikipedia:Requested move to move the page Gallipoli to Gallipoli, Turkey because there is a Gallipoli, Italy. I am opposed to the move because I think Gallipoli Turkey is the primary usage of the word and does not need the country postix. If you would like to express an opinion on this please follow the link to Talk:Gallipoli -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the trivia entry that stated Tom Traubert's Blues by Tom Waits is about the Gallipoli campaign. This entry seems totally unsupported by even a cursory review on the internet. Nor is it supported by the lyrics themselves--as ambiguous and rambling as they may be. Schaddm 03:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Can the extensive "What if?" segment that opens the Aftermath section really be considered anything other than original research and thoroughly unencyclopaedic? If someone simply wants to say "X was a significant factor in the failure of the operation," then that statement should be made at the time the factor is discussed. Binabik80 02:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is tempting to suppose the Gallipoli campaign could have had a different outcome by asking "What if?" certain events had followed a different course, whether through luck or leadership.
- The Battle of Gallipoli was a finely balanced struggle with neither side able to exploit any slight advantage. When the Allies achieved a breakthrough, such as at Lone Pine or the second battle of Krithia, they lacked the reserves to continue the advance. Likewise when the Turks halted an Allied attack, their counter-attacks were unable to rout the enemy.
I heard a LOT of paranormal reports about this one battle... like the on posted somewhere above me about the 5th Norfolk. Also I heard that there were supposebly bombs either fired from the ships or dropped by British bombers, not sure which one, that never hit the ground! As I remember these were actual reports by soldiers in the battle! Anyone know anything about this?
Calengurth 00:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I wouldnt use Turkish since there were many ethinical groups. I'd rather see Ottoman or even Muslim to be used in this article. I'v e been to the place and there were pakistani's etc.
Turkish is not just an ethnical definition dude. He, who is a Turkish Citizen, is Turkish. Battle of Gallipoli can said to be the most important section of the Turkish Independency War. And in fact, the commander of this battle was Mustafa Kemal who is honoured by Turkish nation with the name 'Atatürk' that means 'Father of Turks'. Battle of Gallipoli's why he is named so. Gundoganfa 02:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We were already independent!!! This was to stop The Allied force... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.232.22.224 (
talk)
17:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The cloud was Allah's work. Also there was a cannon stil hot that was used in syria wich came in to help at Gallipoli. Its no magic alright. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.53.211.52 ( talk) 23:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
hahahaha!!
I've restored the word "tragically" to this sentence. The Turks launched a major assault at Anzac on 19 May — 42,000 Turks attacked 10,000 Australians and New Zealanders — but the attack tragically miscarried.
An anon removed the word with the following edit summary: "Non neutrol POV - Inappropriate to say "tragically" - one side's tragedy is another side's victory.."
I don't agree with this. To my mind the use of the descriptive word is linked to the attack, not the campaign as a whole. Of course this attack was a tragedy for the Turks, just as the Nek assault was a tragedy for the Australians. NPOV doesn't mean that we have to excise all description or emotion from our writing. -- Pete 19:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
i would say that the 42,000 turks (probably quite reasonably) assumed they would quickly overrun the smaller force, and that it was on this assumption that they charged into battle against the enemy. while it may be unreasonable to suggest that such a seemingly overwhelming attack was the product of hubris, the fact that it ultimately failed means that the assumption of superiority was unrealistic (due to a lack of equipment and initiative or the element of surprise, according to the rest of the paragraph; see also hamartia {and Talk:Tragedy}, and therefore tragic. I'm not going to change anything on the page, but i would say that the definitions of tragic and tragedy both on wiki (certainly the disambiguation page - "A tragedy is a literary work with an unhappy outcome") and the wider web fall short of the specific dramatic and general definitions i was taught in school - in general use, if something is tragic then it happened to someone as a result of something they (or an associated party) did, especially if that thing was something they (or the associated party) should have known not to do or could have prevented. eg your roof suddenly collapses and kills you - bummer, but an accident, not a tragedy; you think your ceiling is unstable so you poke it with a broom handle, and then it collapses on you - tragic. To apply that analogy to this battle, the Turks were very sure they had the right ceiling-poking tools, and that the ceiling wasn't particularly dangerous, but it turned out they didn't and it was - both a bummer and a tragedy, at least as far as they were concerned. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 07:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
By the time of the campaign, the capital had been named Istanbul for over four hundred years. Isn't that the name that should be used? Jontomkittredge 23:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The Western Countries apparently kept referring to Istanbul as Constantinople until the 1930s, when the Turks pressed the issue, but the Turks had used the name Istanbul for a long time. (See: Names of Istanbul.) I suggest that the intro paragraph be changed to talk about the UK-France objective as being "Istanbul (which, at the time, was still called "Constantinople" in the European vernacular.) Then the rest of the article can stand as-is, just because all of the contemporary western documents refer to it as Constantinople. 71.199.122.99 ( talk) 12:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Someone with a less than encylopedic knowledge of history, much less this war, had this entry in the trivia section:
A day's truce was arranged to facilitate the removal of the dead and wounded; this momentary contact led to a strange camaraderie between the armies, and courtesies not observed elsewhere in the war.
To which I can simply reply - "Uh, hello, Christmas truce of 1914?" RoyBatty42 18:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any reliable sources for the casualty figures? Baristarim 19:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I can give you a source for Ottoman casulties:
Andrew Mango, 1999. Ataturk. John Murray. p.156.
He gives a less detailed breakdown of Allied casualty figures at 213,980, citing Encylopedia Brittanica, 15th edn, XIX, 951. -- A.Garnet 19:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed a problem here-Up at the top of the article it says casualties were slightly higher for the British forces then the Turks,then near the end of the article a different set of numbers has the British winning 2-1.Im not sure which is accurate,please make them conform.
Is it just me, or is the final total (533,527) underivable from the other numbers? Derek Chong 12:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
These numbers are in serious error.
Reviewing various sources, my estimate for the Allies is a total casualty of 252K, and killed or lost 53K.
Turkish dead 75K (includes dead in the hospitals), 97K wounded. 55K battlefield loss from Mango seems close to 57K from other Turkish sources. Total casualties: 172K. Due to conditions of the day, actual losses may be higher. Men and lives were spent generously. These are from official Turkish military archives and from other sources. I think these are more accurate.
Why there is no clear and precise number for both sides is a mystery. What is not a mystery is that on either side killed were no more than 60K each.-- Murat ( talk) 04:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence is incorrect:
Based on the figures in the table, France (37%), New Zealand (35%) and Newfoundland (34%) suffered the greatest percentage of dead per total force contributed. However, all nations at Gallipoli suffered losses of over 25%.
The table merely gives the dead to wounded ratio of all casualties. To get the deaths to 'total force contributed', you need to have the number for the total force contributed. This is not included in the table. Michael - 6 Oct 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.164.131 ( talk) 20:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Three new sections should be added to this article: "Cultural Influence" (relating to the battle's notoriety among the general public, particularly in Australia, New Zealand and Turkey), "Political Backlash" (accounting for the immediate political consequnces of Gallipoli, the new cabinet, Churchill's sacking and the Dardenelles Commission) and "Conditions" (describing the notorious conditions suffered by both sides over the 10 months). Nwe 12:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
8 months, now aren't you clever. Nwe 20:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Why does it list Australia under British Empire, Australia became independant in 1901. It also should mention Australia and NZ in the opening line. Unsigned comment at 11:06, 2 July 2007 by user:121.45.52.163
"Dominion" was the name given to all self governing member countries of the British Empire (later British Commonwealth) e.g New Zealand and Canada as well as Australia. Australia did become a self governing country (Federation) in 1901. However, full independance from Britain was a slower process. The Statute of Westminster (1934) which was finally ratified by Australia (the last Dominion to do so) in 1942 afforded a degree of legal independance but it was not until the Australia Act of 1988 that Australian citizens lost the right to appeal legal cases to the British House of Lords. As for conscription, this was also the policy of New Zealand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wombat40 ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I feel this article is too easy on Lord Kitchener.It was clear he knew nothing of the terrain in the Dardanelles,had no proper plan if the navy did not succeed,appointed yes men(Hamilton),and did not even fully inform them properly on the plans. Even Hamilton in his diaries states "My knowledge of the Dardanelles was nil;of the Turk nil; of the strength of our own forces next to nil. Although i have met K. almost every day during the past six months,and although he has twice hinted that imight be sent to Salonika, never once, to the best of my recollection had he mentioned the word Dardanelles." The only reason he was not blamed for the fiasco that followed,as many others were, was his popularity with the public.-- Sandbagger 09:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't Mustafa Kemal relatively low-ranking back then? I'm 100% positive that he had some Turkish superior-in-command. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slntssssn ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe he had his own battalion. But I'm probably wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bryce ( talk • contribs) 11:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
A battalion would make him insignificant in a campaign of this size. In fact, he commanded a division and did play a significant part, albeit subordinate to Sanders. Grant | Talk 10:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC) this is really good for those children who are in secondary learning history it really help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.8.144 ( talk) 18:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Ataturk's CO was East Paşa, who reported to Liman Paşa. M. Kemal was only a Liutenant Colonel until June 1st 1915, when he was made a Colonel. He ended up taking over command of an area and resources that were way above his pay grade, but by that time most, inlcuding Germans and Enver, had recognized his talents.-- Murat ( talk) 05:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this described as decisive?. Gallipoli was a failur but to descibe the battle as decisive is palpably wrong. The British defeated the Ottoman Turks during WW1. See Allenby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.102.105 ( talk) 16:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
yes but this is about the independence war of turkey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.113.224.112 ( talk) 18:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes, I suppose the Ottomans lost anyway, but it still allowed them not collapse early on in the war. It also meant that the Allies could not send supplies to Russia as easily. Paper Toad ( talk) 19:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm afriad that I have quickfailed this for GA as it contains a severe paucity of references. There should be at least one reference per paragrpah and here there is no where near that quantity. There are also substantial prose and layout problems which would probably have prevented promotion, but at this stage there is no chance of the article passing without thorough referencing. Apologies and Regards, -- Jackyd101 ( talk) 19:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we work on this? This article deserves better.-- Murat ( talk) 00:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
In the middle of the page, Anzac goes from being the name of the forces from down under, to a place which is not on any of the maps. It continues to be compared to geographically, which makes many of the battles hard to place. Thanks, 38.119.205.11 ( talk) 16:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Lyle Monster
There is no inconsistency. Both terms are used. 'Anzac' is a place - actually two places : the Anzac sector of Gallipoli, and Anzac Cove, a small inlet within the sector. It is also how the soldiers are referred to - 'Anzacs'. It is also the name of the holiday - 'Anzac Day' observed in Australian and New Zealand, and has a few other applications as well. I'm curious as to how you concluded that 'Anzac Cove' 'is not on any of the maps'. It's certainly on many maps I've seen concerning the campaign. Hayaman 00:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayaman ( talk • contribs)
Galipolli was not a battle it was a series of battles, over a period of time. More properly this is known as a campaign. Therefore this page should be named teh Galipolli Campaign, not the Battle of Galipolli. Any takers? Jtan163 ( talk) I would suggest by comparison The Battle of the Somme, also known as the Somme Offensive, fought from July to November 1916,. I think traditionally it would be called the battle of the somme, despite taking 5 months. Some battles are slow. Sandpiper ( talk) 19:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The Gallipoli campaign was a series of battles on land and sea fought over a period of ten months in four widely dispersed geographic locations. Hayaman 00:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayaman ( talk • contribs)
Something that's only just occurred to me is that Turkey was still using the Julian calendar in 1915, which was 13 days behind the Gregorian. I presume that "25 April" was the date in the Gregorian calendar, and that the Turks called the same day "12 April". Can anyone confirm this? -- JackofOz ( talk) 10:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [2]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have taken the bold but timely step of changing the article name. I have also moved all relevant articles into the new Category:Gallipoli Campaign. I still need to go through and rename the Category:Battle of Gallipoli Victoria Cross recipients and its subcategories. Minor changes to various articles to reflect the name change have also been completed. Glenn Sisson ( talk) 03:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that there is an enormous amount of vandalism going on recently on this article, can we get someone to protect the page? Kortaggio ( talk) 01:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a photo captioned Heavy artillery from the German battlecruiser Roon, 1915 which to me is a little confusing. SMS Roon was only disarmed in 1916, so the dates don't fit. Also, if the dates are sorted out, & it's the same ship, then it might be interesting to put this information in the ship article. GrahamBould ( talk) 05:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
<<< There was no German Battlecruiser called Roon. The Roon was an Armoured Cruiser. Edited the wording.
It says the French battleship Bouvet exploded under mysterious circumstances. If you click on the Bouvet though, the page clearly asserts what happened (a mine blew it up). This fact is cited and sourced. So could someone fix this error? Uberlieder ( talk) 00:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
It is stated that Ottomans while preparing for the defense of Gallipoli, supposedly decided that it was best to defend the high ground. Nothing could be firther from truth. Commanders on the ground had actually decided that it was best not to allow the attackers to land and gain a foothold in the first place. German general on the other hand, whom Enver trusted with the overall theater, decided that it was best to pull back to high ground and wait for the landings. To make matters worse, Liman Pasa made a very wrong bet on where the first attack would be. He kept most of the forces tied far from the main action, while a very thin line of Turkish defenders bore the brunt of the initial allied attacks and landings. As usual, the other side of the story is not well represented here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.158.17 ( talk) 17:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, I added Slim Dusty to the musical part of the article, because he did these very distinct lines: a heritage was carved in blood / and the fighting man was born // on the rugged slopes of Gallipoli / where the digger earned his name / and the admiration of the Turk / Australia is his name. Very good song, by the way, released back in 1983. -andy 92.229.132.145 ( talk) 19:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I have tidied up the end of this section by mentioning that no real advance was made to take advance of the initial landing, allowing for Turk reinforcments to be brought up. I hope this is fine with everyone as i have made it so that it works in with the first battle (with Mustapha Kemal).-- Willski72 ( talk) 10:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I will not attempt to edit the article, there are too many more knowledgable contributors close at hand. I will make the (for me) blatantly obvious remark that the treatment here is extraordinarily one sided: we learn much about British motives, allied advances and British defeats, not to mention the suffering of those soldiers who's homes lay on the other side of the world and who, thus, had no argument with the Turks. We learn far too little about the campaign's effects on Ottomans military policy, politics, etc. Remember there are two sides to every conflict. In this case you shortchange the narrative of victim in order to magnify the role of the aggressor.
-- Philopedia ( talk) 21:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Who's the aggressor and who's the victim. The Ottomman Empire declared War on the British Empire (note Empire) not the other way round, much more information is known on the British side, which is of course very in depth. Apart from the fact that it built up Mustafa Kemal (who would eventually become Ataturk) not many people know what effect it had on the turk side or the effect on the Ottoman Empire. It did divert Ottoman troops from the Egypt area giving British troops there a break but thats all i know.-- Willski72 ( talk) 09:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Philopedia, excellent observation and a few had tried to raise it before. This whole article certainly reads like a pure British history. 90K Turks died there defending their home against "lads" who traveled half way around the World to defend Colonial interests. It is true that there has been more archival info available on the Alled side.
Turks had no beef with UK, on the contrary, some intellectuals of the time and even including some in government sought a British mandate. Churchill was too hungry for the posessions of the sick man of Europe though. Confiscation of a cruiser built for the Ottman navy, paid by public donations, was the last straw. Enver took a gamble. In any case, I have already filled in many missing aspects of the Turkish story and historical details, from naval engagements to some key land battles.
This battle has a lot greater significance for the Turkish nation and state than what is suggested here. Much work is needed and now there is so much material. It will be done. This is a nice article. Deserves it.
Most definately it needs to focus more on the Turkish side of the affair. By "not many people know" i was backing up Kirrages who made the point about the fact that it is understandable that it is British orientated when you take into account who will read and contribute to this article. As Wikipedia is public and does not hire in professionals this is self-evident. However we must be careful to try and keep it neutral. The Ottoman Empire declared war on Britain, not the other way around. And the two countries were already fighting around Egypt and the Levant. The whole point of this campaign as espoused by Churchill was to quickly capture Constantinople and thus force the Ottomans to come to terms, so that the British Empire could focus its troops on the Western Front. It was nothing to do with splitting up the Ottoman Empire and keeping its provinces for British imperialism (this occurred through League mandates and went to France as well. And Russia had offered this before the Crimean War anyway). In a way this battle helped to forge the Turkish nation out of the old Ottoman Empire, possibly more than any other single event. However, unfortunately, we need an expert.
Willski72 (
talk)
20:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It's easy to snipe at the British Empire, who 'who travelled half way around the World to defend Colonial interests' but that's completely wrong. The First World War began due to German expansions and invasion of Neutral Belgium and Austro-Hungary's advances in the Balkan states and the Ottoman Empire was on these two's side. The Ottoman Empire was the aggressor being that it declared war in the first place... Which clearly places it as the aggressor.
And it's not like the Ottoman's are the anti-Imperialist good guys, the Ottoman EMPIRE should give you a clue why not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.56.58 ( talk) 02:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
hear, hear. good luck finding anything NPOV on this subject - it all stinks of BS to me. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 19:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest the addition of the novel "Birds Without Wings" by Louis de Bernières in which he depicts the Gallipoli Campaign from the Turkish soldiers point of view and does so with much truth and compassion. Chris McEvilly (chrlor@sympatico.ca) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.70.119.188 ( talk) 02:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
For a discussion on when it is appropriate and when it is not to fully-capitalise the noun 'Anzac' see the discussion page on the 'Anzac Day' article.
I note in this article, within the Notes/Citations sections, the following:
6^ Bean, C.E.W. (1941) [1921]. Official Histories – First World War. Volume I – The Story of ANZAC from the outbreak of war to the end of the first phase of the Gallipoli Campaign, May 4, 1915 (11th ed.). Canberra: Australian War Memorial. Cover page.
The original title has the word 'Anzac' - referring to the geographic location on the Gallipoli Peninsula ('the Anzac sector'), within the title, NOT 'ANZAC' (referring to the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps). Bean (the author) never referred to ANZAC without 'the' preceding it, as in 'the A&NZAC').
28^ a b ANZAC Day 2008 - The Gallipoli Campaign, Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs. Accessed 24 March 2009.
The link is broken, but observe: http://www.dva.gov.au/DVASearchResults.aspx?k=anzac%20day for the form of the word used by the Department of Veteran's Affairs.
34^ "'ANZAC Day' in London; King, Queen, and General Birdwood at Services in Abbey," New York Times. April 26, 1916.
Following the link to the actual original article reveals the reference to 'Anzac Day' ; Not 'ANZAC Day' as it is indicated here.
37^ "Aussies forget the NZ in ANZAC", AAP.com.au
As for the point above. Unless someone can present a convincing argument as to why these terms have to be altered and cannot be referred to as they were originally written, I intend to alter the links above accordingly. --Hayaman 00:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
There is a extrange chart at the casualties section, from the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs, I have tried to look at the source itself but its a dead link. The chart claims that the allies suffered 141,000 casualties (Too low, most sources agree with 240K-260K figure). Could someone check this now, look for a "realiable source" and replace the chart or look for a updated link??
I think this deserves some revision and augmentation for clarification purposes, listed under the 'Prelude' section of the article:
"First Sea Lord John Fisher opposed the campaign and instead preferred a direct naval landing on the north coast of Germany, but Churchill won the argument."
This is far too simplistic and inaccurate. It implies that Lord Fisher was against the campaign from the beginning which is false and misleading. Lord Fisher was very much in support of the Dardanelles Campaign right up until the point when things began to go awry and thus proclaimed falsely to the War Council, shortly before his resignation as First Sea Lord and departure from the Admiralty, that he had been against the campaign all along. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBlackWhirlwind ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Am I allowed to quote at length from a book, or is this A) a violation of copyright B) not considered a verifiable source or C) both? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBlackWhirlwind ( talk • contribs) 23:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the article name should be changed to the 'Dardanelles Campaign'. It is already referred to as such in the Encyclopedia Britannica and Americana. Thus I think the name should change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.245.55 ( talk) 08:06, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Any chance of a decent caption for the infobox image(s)? I'd add one myself if I knew anything about them, but unfortunately I don't (hence the problem). Cheers, Ranger Steve ( talk) 07:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The article states "Fisher resigned in May after bitter conflict with Churchill over the campaign. The crisis that followed forced the Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith to end his single-party Liberal Government and form a Coalition Government with the Conservative Party." While I do not dispute that Gallipoli had some influence on the change of government, I believe that the Shell Crisis was the driving force. Wikipedia's Shell Crisis of 1915 and Dan van der Vat's " The Dardanelles Disaster" (chapter 8) support this view. Contrary opinions are welcome. Cwelgo ( talk) 18:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I refer to the following statement: "However, an early proposal to use Greek troops to invade the Gallipoli peninsula was vetoed by Russia as its South Slavic allies would feel threatened by an expansion of Greek power and influence."
This statement underlies a couple of inaccurate or at least highly dubious premises, specifically;
1. That Greece was willing in 1914-1915, to join the Allies. The Allies could not "use" Greek forces without a Greek declaration of war, and in 1915 Greece was still neutral. Around this time Greek politics was split between those who supported the German monarchy (lead by the pro-German King of Greece, Constantine I) and those who wanted to join the Allies. It was not until June 1917 - following the abdictation of Constantine I- that the Greek government finally declared war on Germany.
2. That the Greek armed forces of 1914-1915 were sufficiently well-equipped and trained to engage in the Gallipoli campaign. I am of the opinion that the Greek Army of 1915 would not have been large or strong enough to have participated in a major military conflict against Turkey. The Greeks did not have a substantial navy either (in comparison to the other combatants involved at Gallipoli). It is also evident that when Greece actively went to war against Germany in 1918, Greek troops were provided with significant amounts of Allied War material (such as new weapons, French uniforms etc) and were provided with military training from the Allies.
If this statement is "true" (in some manner that is not clear to the casual reader) it needs to be explained. For instance, it may have been possible that the author of this statement was referring to Greek mercenary troops or Greek volunteers, rather than actual Greek government troops. Further, if Russia did vetoe Greek involvement, might it have been for another reason than for fear of expanding Greek influence (e.g. trade agreements?)
Can anyone clear this matter up with the facts ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illdz ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
the way the United Kingdom is listed on this looks a little wierd. France is listed above Frech West Africa, so shouldn't the UK be listed above it's colonies also? And the flag for Newfoundland is wrong Voucherman ( talk) 16:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
There are a couple of references to Anzac as if it were a place, e.g. "launched an offensive at Anzac...", "5 miles north of Anzac..."
I don't know enough about the subject to correct it, but this is surely an error that must be corrected...
92.104.81.253 ( talk) 19:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC) David Crutchley
Does anyone know anything about this public domain image of Turkish bones? [4] If it is casualties from the campaign maybe it can be incorporated into the article. It certainly is striking, but I is seems like a very odd burial practice-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)?
on my casual understanding of the subject the gallipoli campaign, particularly the invasion, was considered a series of incredibly monumental f-ups on both sides even by contemporary military wisdom, and if a military analysis section could be done encyclopedically, with references and maps etc, it would add to the reader's understanding of both this subject and military strategy generally. also on the subject, this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Battle_of_Gallipoli, needs to be looked over. the dates at least may be worth keeping, but since there doesn't seem to be any references it will all have to be redone anyway. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 17:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC) Mistakes are made in all wars.In this case the major British issues were: 1 The campaign was a side show from the start. 2 The lines of supply were very long.(for the first week the ANZACs had very little water.) 3 The allied forces did not have sufficient troops to overcome a dug in opposition.Normally 3:1 advantage is accepted. 4 In the Anzac cove area the Australian troops were landed in the wrong place by the royal navy.-Not surprising as the maps were 2 degrees out and they then had to scale steep crumbling cliff slopes instead of landing on a flat beach. 5 Security in Egypt was non existent-thousand of troops knew where and approx when they were going.(was talked about in letters home several weeks prior to the start).The campaign was refered to in the media.Cairo was crawling with spies. 6 The British overestimated the effect of a naval bombardment which was pretty haphazard(though they did try to use aircrft to direct the fall of shot-but coms were primative, the planes very slow and when they flew low they were often hit by Turkish guns. 7 There was a big shortage of suitable artillary and the ammunition for guns as the Western Front had priority. 8 Virtually no planning was done to take care of casualties.The British actually discouraged nurses initially.The French had a good hospital set up and later the people of NZ sent a fully equipped hospital ship complete with nurses and doctors. 9 During the most important attack at Gallipoli the Wellingtons actually got to the summit of Chunak Bar but Malone and other were then killed by shells being fired from British warships.The British troops, who relieved them, were soon driven off by a Turkish counter attack. 10 The planing staff was about 10% of what would be considered the correct size in later amphibious operations and they had no experience to draw on. 11 Planning time was ridicilously short -only 6 weeks. 12 The British underestimated the Turkish soldiers who, by and large, were far more experienced in combat than the British-especially the Anzacs,(most of the older Turkish soldiers had served through a brutal 2 year campaign)even though the Turkish basic eqipment (boots and clothing)were poor.The Turks did have good rifles and plenty of rifle ammunition and "bombs"(hand grenades)which were used to good effect at Anzac Cove as the ANZAC soldiers were invariably below the Turks. 11 The amphibious part of the operation was very primitive-troops at Gallipoli were usually towed by steam pinnace to about 1 mile from the shore and then they had to row-average speed about 4mph.Sitting ducks .However at least the Australian commander insisted on landing in the dark-whereas the southern landing was in broad daylight .Elsewhere soldiers had to exit via a hole in the side of a ferry-the Turks just lined up MGs on the hole to slaughter the troops. 12 It is telling that before the campaign started many senior British officers said it has no chance of success. 13 The Turks had a lot of technical assistance from German advisors.They had a reasonable time to prepare camps ,tracks roads,wire,mines and MG strong points. They were familiar with the landscape,they had mobile reserves,they had the advantage of height, their lines of communication and logistics were short, and they were defending their homeland (for the second time in a few years). With 20/20 hindsight it wasn't one of Winston's better ideas-and he paid the price. The long term effect was that Britain could not supply the Russian forces with the modern supplies they desparately needed -they fought on gamely but by 1917 were on the point of collapse.It is intersting to ponder what would have happened had the straits been forced and the British maintained a flow of supplies to the Tsar's forces-no communist victory? No surrender? No transfer of German troops for the massive and nearly succesful attack on the Western Front? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.34.4 ( talk) 04:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
We are told "The film Gallipoli (1981) featuring Mel Gibson described the experiences of two Australian sprinters who volunteered and fought at Gallipoli but gave a fairly misleading impression of the roles of the British Armed Forces."
Nothing more. No source. Seems quite a POV statement. I don't know if it's true, but nor will any other reader. I believe we either need a source (and I wouldn't know where to look) or deletion of the words from "but..." onwards. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Wow, this conversation has stretched out over time. Just referring back to my post that started the thread, my suggestion of "deletion of the words from 'but...' onwards" has been implemented. It allows the film to stand on its own. As for the POVness of the film, I suspect every country makes movies that make its own forces look good in war, and it's probably true of this one. Hardly controversial. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
As an FYI. I've uploaded a number of high quality maps that were online at the AWM, in both PNG and JPG formats. They include Ottoman and Entente maps, a couple of which are trench map. See Category:Maps of the Battle of Gallipoli at the commons.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 15:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
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An event in this article is a January 9 selected anniversary
Strictly speaking, Von Sanders(An ottoman Pasha even before World War) was the Turkish commander. I only included Germany as a combatant because they provided machine gunners and artillery(*false batteries over gallipoli was built by Abdulhamit II) . Also submarines, I guess, plus the German crews remained on the Breslau and Goeben even once they became Turkish vessels. Perhaps Germany's role in Gallipoli isn't big enough to warrant a "combatant" tag. If we include them, we probably should include Newfoundland and Malta and the Zion Mule Corps and so on for the Allied side. Gsl 06:33, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hamilton's leadership was distant & incompetent, & the ANZACs were little better. They went ashore against trivial opposition & stopped, evidently not aware (or concerned) their objective was to link up & defeat the Turks. Something needs to be said about this. Something also needs to be said about the poor planning & co-ordination that hamstrung the troops when they did land. Trekphiler 06:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
We also forget the Colonel Şefik Aker, Commander of the 27th Regiment -- 88.245.31.51 ( talk) 14:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this article is that the campaign is never called "the Battle of Gallipoli" in any of the combatant countries. In Britain it is called the Dardanelles Campaign and in Australia and New Zealand it is simply called Gallipoli, or sometimes the Gallipoli Landings. I don't know what it's called in France. I will note this in the intro para, but perhaps this title ought to be redirected. Adam 05:42, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm aware of that, but that doesn't make it the name of the battle. Is an encyclopaedia required to conform to reality or vice versa? Adam 06:10, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree it is an awkward choice. I said "perhaps" it ought to be redirected, but perhaps also it ought not. Adam 06:23, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I have no problems with amee foxs suggestion, but I think on further thought that the problem is that Gallipoli wasn't a "battle" at all, it was a campaign lasting several months, with a series of engagements but no single "battle." I could therefore argue that the Battle of Gallipoli article be dropped and its content shifted to Gallipoli (military campaign) or something like that. Adam 02:32, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree, Adam. Gallipoli campaign or Gallipoli (campaign) or something similar. It isn't called "the Battle of Gallipoli" by anyone, and it wasn't a battle, it was a whole series of them. From the point of view of link-friendliness, most people will want to just link it as Gallipoli, so Gallipoli (campaign) allows the pipe trick. On the other hand, Gallipoli campaign looks better. Or even (shock horror) Battle of Gallipoli? Whichever way you look at it. it's a curly one. Tannin 02:58, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Seems to me "Battle of Gallipoli" is inappropriate. It wasn't a single action, as "battle" implies, but a campaign. I agree, it's rarely called "Dardanelles Campaign", which would be correct; I'd suggest retitle the page & redirect via Gallipol links (the most common usage) from pages that are concerned with it. Others I'd say should go to a disambiguation page. Trekphiler 05:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Gallipoli should be a Campaign, not a Battle! As it is always called in Australia & New Zealand, while in Britain it is the Dardanelles Campaign (not Battle). While said to be against the Wiki naming policy, but the page dealing with the policy does not make any mention of Campaigns or Theatres in a War! Wiki has in WWI “the Sinai-Palestine Campaign” and in the American Civil War the Franklin-Nashville Campaign and the Trans- Mississippi Theatre. Are we going to call them the Sinai-Palestine Battle etc? Hugo999 12:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC) PS: this discussion started in 2004, why not do it!
Just to say that there is a little mistake in the introduction : in France, this battle has only been only known as the « Bataille des Dardanelles » (Dardanelles Battle) and Gallipoli has never been heard as a name for it. I let you change it in the article. Glotz 17:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have the Commonwealth War Graves Commission leaflet (ie an official leaflet): the title is The Gallipoli Campaign, 1915. It starts with a paragraph on the Naval attempt to force the Dardanelles in March 1915. Fred Waite's The New Zealanders at Gallipoli just refers to Gallipoli, but has references to individual battles: Battle of Krithia, Sari Bair, Lone Pine. Hugo999 10:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with most that calling it the "Battle of Gallipoli" is a bit of a misnomer, considering the majority terms used in other countries who participated in the battles of that campaign. "The Gallipoli Campaign" would be more apropos than as such as it is referred to now. Firstly, when you refer to maps regarding the battle, the only sight of the word "Gallipoli" is the town on the western shores of the Dardanelles on the northern part of the peninsula; there was never a battle there during this particular campaign that made this particular event to be known as such. Secondly, the peninsula as a whole is referred to "Gallipoli" (though not shown by cartography), making 'campaign' the proper term for this region of conflict during of WWI. IF one really wants to be technical about it, maybe it should be called the "Gallipoli Peninsula Campaign", but I think "Gallipoli Campaign" would be more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tom ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The Gallipoli campaign was just that - a 'campaign'. Not a battle. A campaign consists of many battles. Some of the battles fought during the Gallipoli campaign were 'The Landing', '1st Krithia', '2nd Krithia', 'Gully Ravine', 'Sari Bair' and 'Hill 60'. A battle could be further broken down into 'actions'. For example, during the Battle of Sari Bair, three well-known actions in Australia and New Zealand were 'Lone Pine', Chunuk Bair' and 'The Nek'. The 'Battles Nomenclature Committee' of the British government decided / decides on the names of battles, and to suggest that this aspect of history be overridden by Wikipedia guidelines seems presumptuous, to say the least. Hayaman ( talk) 11:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
May I just point out that I think this is a rather good article? :) Barneyboo 11:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree. Of all of Wikipedia's Battle pages, this one is exceptionally well written. Anon 8:29 02 Jun 2006 (UTC)
Remarks are too subjective.. and it is not Gallipoly.. Gallipoli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.195.7 ( talk) 02:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
It is an very good article; however, I think it would be more historically accurate to use the word Ottoman wherever possible, instead of "Turkish", except in relation to specific individuals (etc). That is to say, it's possible that two thirds of the Ottoman forces were Arab conscripts. Obviously there were many other ethnic groups in the empire as well. Check this interesting article at al Jazeera's website: "The forgotten Arabs of Gallipoli", by Jonathan Gorvett, 14 January 2004 [1] (By the way, the article doesn't mention that some Arabs -- Egyptians -- served as labourers with the Allied forces.) What do others think? Grant65 (Talk) 11:46, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
There was only one arab regiment at Gallipoli at the beginning(in 19.Division) then as far as I know it has taken back.But there was individual Arab officers. Aozgen54@yahoo.com
I've reverted the use of "Ottoman". If you wish to use "Ottoman" instead of "Turkish", please make the changes consistent through the entire article rather than in one isolated section. Also make the changes in all the sub-articles and the articles of the Sinai and Palestine campaign. Geoff/Gsl 00:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A single website does not convince me about the number of ethnic Arabs in the Ottoman army. That speculation should be removed until someone comes up with more credible references. Basarcenik 14:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reliable citation for the figures? Turkish Army now seems to say that the 253,000 figure includes all losses and the number of dead is around 60,000. Here's a link to an article discussing this (in Turkish): http://www.canakkale1915.com/sehitsayisi.htm
The numbers above are the most accurate. -- Murat ( talk) 04:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Arabs dind't fought at WWI for Ottoman empire. They joinned the British! see Lawrance of Arabia
It wasn't the German Wehrmacht, was it? Of course it consisted of various ethnic groups and minorities. Still it was the Turkish army, are you objecting to this? In tradition of previous Turkish states (like the Seljuk named after Selçuk Bey), Ottoman (Osman) is just the name of the bey who laid the foundations of the empire, it is not a name that signifies the unification of nations like "United Kingdom" or "United States of America". So what do you think you are actually doing by replacing Ottomans with Turks? What would you do if Turks didn't have such tradition, if it was just the Turkish Empire instead of Ottoman?-- 194.27.64.188 ( talk) 17:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually many young boys were sent from Istanbul itself, it is said that there was no family lef in Istanbul that did not send a son to the front. An Arab regiment I know is the 77th, that was supposed to cover the 27th and 57th of Colonel Şefik Aker and Mustafa Kemal but failed miserably in doing so. eae1983 -- 88.245.31.51 ( talk) 14:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Turkish is the right word. Repeat , Turkish is the right word..
Let me repeat the third time it is not Ottoman , it is Turkish. People is the matter not the corrupt government.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.195.7 ( talk) 02:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Thechncially Ottoman is the right name, but it is no great sin to use "Turk" as most of Europe and the World referred them by that name also.-- Murat ( talk) 04:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Look, if you don't think the link should be there, fine, take it out, but please indicate why in the edit comment. A simple "revert" just isn't appropriate for something that's not actually vandalism. -- Andrew 10:33, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
There are some rumours about a mysterious cloud, which should have kidnapped the 5th Norfolk on August 12th, 1915.
Nothing so exotic. A unit of a couple of hundred soldiers were seen to push on against weak opposition, became cut off and none returned in a campaign where most Allied dead were not identifed. The Graves Commission found the bodies in 1919. Reason the incident was more well known than other incidents was most of them were employed by the English Royal Family at the Sandringham Estate. See http://user.online.be/~snelders/sand.htm
Herne nz 09:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
A dramatic if not convincing film, with David Jason, not in this article though! Hugo999 12:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0220969/
No mystery here. These boys went too fast too far and were cut off. They chose to fight rather than surrender and all perished. A similar thing happened to a small Turkish unit too, having found themselves behind the French rear, fighting the cooks and the nurses, they managed to pull back in the "fog" of war with light losses.-- Murat ( talk) 04:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
A book on this matter was published about 15 years ago, name and author totally escape me. I have the impression, perhaps wrongly+, that rather more than 200 men were involved. However, a couple of points stick in my mind. First both the CO and his son (a platoon comd) were killed. Second a handful of men survived and returned home after the war. They reported what would now be called a major war crime. The Turks took a lot of prisoners and executed them on the spot, the handful who survived were saved by the intercession of a German officer. Nfe ( talk) 04:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
"The Ottoman Empire had been dismissed by Tsar Nicholas I of Russia as "the sick man of Europe" but after victory over the Allies at Gallipoli, Turkey's visions of the empire were renewed." It seems absurd to call turkish military operations as "visions of empire", especially in an article about a british millitary operation in the ottoman territory.
Can somebody identify who actually conceived the operation? It's credited to WSC, here; he didn't actually come up with it, only championed it (& I'd correct it if I knew more...). Trekphiler 05:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The actual genesis for the campaign for the "Dardanelles" was, indeed, Churchill as a part of a very high-level, conceptual aspriation bold enough to break the stalemate that had been created by trench warfare late in 1914 [1]. However, nothing substantive occurred until Secretary to the War Council, Maurice Hankey, suggested that an attack on Constantinople via the Dardanelles by navy and army (75,000 troops) would do the trick. As to the assertion that Churchill underestimated Turkish troop strength, that seems misplaced. It was "Kitchner's confidence in Turkish weakness [that] was the decisive factor in all that followed" [2]. Up to that time, Churchill had been a avid supporter of a strong ground force to consolidate the gains he expected from the initial naval campaign. emesselt ( talk) 01:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The casualty figures in the table on this page definitely don't add up on the total line. Why is there such an obvious error - that is inappropriate. It looks like there may need to be a range for the Turkish casualties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.189.181 ( talk) 19:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Why are there inconsistent casualty figures at the top and bottom of this page? The figures under casulaties look more plausible Nickhk 01:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)nickhk
I have to agree... I was very confused while reading the article. can anyone clarify this and make all numbers equal?
Ah, yes, I'll third the confusion... Samgra 08:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Consider it fourthed. The numbers in the box at the top right of the page seem idiotic. 700,000 turkish dead? 550,000 British empire and french dead? That cant be right. I thought it was about 10,000 apiece -- Will James 05:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I found the numbers. Here they are.
I got that from this site - http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-gallipoli.html . I'm new to the whole wikipedia thing so I'd apprecate it if someone else did the adding of casualty information. Remember to cite it if you need to. -- Will James 07:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The above seems to be the most realisitic. I do not think there is one resource that that gives all the figures accurately. France: 27K killed seems way too high, more likley 10K. 17K wounded. Newfoundland: 49 killed, 93 wounded. Ottomans: 57K battlefield dead, 18K more in the hospitals and disease, 92K wounded. From Turkish military archives. Actuals may be higher due to conditions of the country at the time. One day I will add all these up!-- Murat ( talk) 05:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think there are two issues: 1) What are the most accurate numbers, and 2) the sub(totals) in the table are wrong (the numbers do not add up). It should be easy to at least fix the second issue but perhaps someone should edit the table who's also been researching the right numbers? 212.186.105.130 ( talk) 00:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)dpk
Japanese Minister:
“The war which 6,000 bullets fell on each square meter,Turks were the victorious.You succeed an really impossible.You showed to all world the belief is victorous by challenge the latest technology and rigging.Moreover,the enemies were not one.Entente Powers were 72 nations who fighted with you.”
Note :More than 500,000 people lost their lives and Turkey lost all her quality labours.Therefore,Turkey couldnt close her quality labour needs for years and it influenced economy a lot... Inanna 23:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
we lost 4 million people again in our Independence war and our men population was 1 million and women population was 9 7 million when we got our independence.After all these Mustafa Kemal did great things to our country for our improvement.We are still here bacause of Mustafa Kemal.If he couldnt change the whole war in Gallipoli now you can see a British colonial empire and a republic of ottoman empire defeated by British Colonilization and emperialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.81.104 ( talk) 18:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Middle Eastern theatre of World War I#Rename? -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a trivia section about this campaign.. It can be a ".. in popular culture" section too.. -- Jack o lantern 18:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed an inconsistency in the article: in the intro, it is mentioned that an estimated 500 000 soldiers died, but in the table near the end of the article, it says no more than 130 000 soldiers were killed. Since the number of wounded troops is quite similar in the intro and in the table, I would tend to believe the number of deaths would be roughly 130 000. Plus, rare are the battles leaving more dead than wounded.
There is a Wikipedia:Requested move to move the page Gallipoli to Gallipoli, Turkey because there is a Gallipoli, Italy. I am opposed to the move because I think Gallipoli Turkey is the primary usage of the word and does not need the country postix. If you would like to express an opinion on this please follow the link to Talk:Gallipoli -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the trivia entry that stated Tom Traubert's Blues by Tom Waits is about the Gallipoli campaign. This entry seems totally unsupported by even a cursory review on the internet. Nor is it supported by the lyrics themselves--as ambiguous and rambling as they may be. Schaddm 03:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Can the extensive "What if?" segment that opens the Aftermath section really be considered anything other than original research and thoroughly unencyclopaedic? If someone simply wants to say "X was a significant factor in the failure of the operation," then that statement should be made at the time the factor is discussed. Binabik80 02:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is tempting to suppose the Gallipoli campaign could have had a different outcome by asking "What if?" certain events had followed a different course, whether through luck or leadership.
- The Battle of Gallipoli was a finely balanced struggle with neither side able to exploit any slight advantage. When the Allies achieved a breakthrough, such as at Lone Pine or the second battle of Krithia, they lacked the reserves to continue the advance. Likewise when the Turks halted an Allied attack, their counter-attacks were unable to rout the enemy.
I heard a LOT of paranormal reports about this one battle... like the on posted somewhere above me about the 5th Norfolk. Also I heard that there were supposebly bombs either fired from the ships or dropped by British bombers, not sure which one, that never hit the ground! As I remember these were actual reports by soldiers in the battle! Anyone know anything about this?
Calengurth 00:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I wouldnt use Turkish since there were many ethinical groups. I'd rather see Ottoman or even Muslim to be used in this article. I'v e been to the place and there were pakistani's etc.
Turkish is not just an ethnical definition dude. He, who is a Turkish Citizen, is Turkish. Battle of Gallipoli can said to be the most important section of the Turkish Independency War. And in fact, the commander of this battle was Mustafa Kemal who is honoured by Turkish nation with the name 'Atatürk' that means 'Father of Turks'. Battle of Gallipoli's why he is named so. Gundoganfa 02:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We were already independent!!! This was to stop The Allied force... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.232.22.224 (
talk)
17:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The cloud was Allah's work. Also there was a cannon stil hot that was used in syria wich came in to help at Gallipoli. Its no magic alright. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.53.211.52 ( talk) 23:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
hahahaha!!
I've restored the word "tragically" to this sentence. The Turks launched a major assault at Anzac on 19 May — 42,000 Turks attacked 10,000 Australians and New Zealanders — but the attack tragically miscarried.
An anon removed the word with the following edit summary: "Non neutrol POV - Inappropriate to say "tragically" - one side's tragedy is another side's victory.."
I don't agree with this. To my mind the use of the descriptive word is linked to the attack, not the campaign as a whole. Of course this attack was a tragedy for the Turks, just as the Nek assault was a tragedy for the Australians. NPOV doesn't mean that we have to excise all description or emotion from our writing. -- Pete 19:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
i would say that the 42,000 turks (probably quite reasonably) assumed they would quickly overrun the smaller force, and that it was on this assumption that they charged into battle against the enemy. while it may be unreasonable to suggest that such a seemingly overwhelming attack was the product of hubris, the fact that it ultimately failed means that the assumption of superiority was unrealistic (due to a lack of equipment and initiative or the element of surprise, according to the rest of the paragraph; see also hamartia {and Talk:Tragedy}, and therefore tragic. I'm not going to change anything on the page, but i would say that the definitions of tragic and tragedy both on wiki (certainly the disambiguation page - "A tragedy is a literary work with an unhappy outcome") and the wider web fall short of the specific dramatic and general definitions i was taught in school - in general use, if something is tragic then it happened to someone as a result of something they (or an associated party) did, especially if that thing was something they (or the associated party) should have known not to do or could have prevented. eg your roof suddenly collapses and kills you - bummer, but an accident, not a tragedy; you think your ceiling is unstable so you poke it with a broom handle, and then it collapses on you - tragic. To apply that analogy to this battle, the Turks were very sure they had the right ceiling-poking tools, and that the ceiling wasn't particularly dangerous, but it turned out they didn't and it was - both a bummer and a tragedy, at least as far as they were concerned. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 07:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
By the time of the campaign, the capital had been named Istanbul for over four hundred years. Isn't that the name that should be used? Jontomkittredge 23:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The Western Countries apparently kept referring to Istanbul as Constantinople until the 1930s, when the Turks pressed the issue, but the Turks had used the name Istanbul for a long time. (See: Names of Istanbul.) I suggest that the intro paragraph be changed to talk about the UK-France objective as being "Istanbul (which, at the time, was still called "Constantinople" in the European vernacular.) Then the rest of the article can stand as-is, just because all of the contemporary western documents refer to it as Constantinople. 71.199.122.99 ( talk) 12:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Someone with a less than encylopedic knowledge of history, much less this war, had this entry in the trivia section:
A day's truce was arranged to facilitate the removal of the dead and wounded; this momentary contact led to a strange camaraderie between the armies, and courtesies not observed elsewhere in the war.
To which I can simply reply - "Uh, hello, Christmas truce of 1914?" RoyBatty42 18:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any reliable sources for the casualty figures? Baristarim 19:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I can give you a source for Ottoman casulties:
Andrew Mango, 1999. Ataturk. John Murray. p.156.
He gives a less detailed breakdown of Allied casualty figures at 213,980, citing Encylopedia Brittanica, 15th edn, XIX, 951. -- A.Garnet 19:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed a problem here-Up at the top of the article it says casualties were slightly higher for the British forces then the Turks,then near the end of the article a different set of numbers has the British winning 2-1.Im not sure which is accurate,please make them conform.
Is it just me, or is the final total (533,527) underivable from the other numbers? Derek Chong 12:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
These numbers are in serious error.
Reviewing various sources, my estimate for the Allies is a total casualty of 252K, and killed or lost 53K.
Turkish dead 75K (includes dead in the hospitals), 97K wounded. 55K battlefield loss from Mango seems close to 57K from other Turkish sources. Total casualties: 172K. Due to conditions of the day, actual losses may be higher. Men and lives were spent generously. These are from official Turkish military archives and from other sources. I think these are more accurate.
Why there is no clear and precise number for both sides is a mystery. What is not a mystery is that on either side killed were no more than 60K each.-- Murat ( talk) 04:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence is incorrect:
Based on the figures in the table, France (37%), New Zealand (35%) and Newfoundland (34%) suffered the greatest percentage of dead per total force contributed. However, all nations at Gallipoli suffered losses of over 25%.
The table merely gives the dead to wounded ratio of all casualties. To get the deaths to 'total force contributed', you need to have the number for the total force contributed. This is not included in the table. Michael - 6 Oct 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.164.131 ( talk) 20:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Three new sections should be added to this article: "Cultural Influence" (relating to the battle's notoriety among the general public, particularly in Australia, New Zealand and Turkey), "Political Backlash" (accounting for the immediate political consequnces of Gallipoli, the new cabinet, Churchill's sacking and the Dardenelles Commission) and "Conditions" (describing the notorious conditions suffered by both sides over the 10 months). Nwe 12:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
8 months, now aren't you clever. Nwe 20:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Why does it list Australia under British Empire, Australia became independant in 1901. It also should mention Australia and NZ in the opening line. Unsigned comment at 11:06, 2 July 2007 by user:121.45.52.163
"Dominion" was the name given to all self governing member countries of the British Empire (later British Commonwealth) e.g New Zealand and Canada as well as Australia. Australia did become a self governing country (Federation) in 1901. However, full independance from Britain was a slower process. The Statute of Westminster (1934) which was finally ratified by Australia (the last Dominion to do so) in 1942 afforded a degree of legal independance but it was not until the Australia Act of 1988 that Australian citizens lost the right to appeal legal cases to the British House of Lords. As for conscription, this was also the policy of New Zealand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wombat40 ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I feel this article is too easy on Lord Kitchener.It was clear he knew nothing of the terrain in the Dardanelles,had no proper plan if the navy did not succeed,appointed yes men(Hamilton),and did not even fully inform them properly on the plans. Even Hamilton in his diaries states "My knowledge of the Dardanelles was nil;of the Turk nil; of the strength of our own forces next to nil. Although i have met K. almost every day during the past six months,and although he has twice hinted that imight be sent to Salonika, never once, to the best of my recollection had he mentioned the word Dardanelles." The only reason he was not blamed for the fiasco that followed,as many others were, was his popularity with the public.-- Sandbagger 09:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't Mustafa Kemal relatively low-ranking back then? I'm 100% positive that he had some Turkish superior-in-command. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slntssssn ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe he had his own battalion. But I'm probably wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bryce ( talk • contribs) 11:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
A battalion would make him insignificant in a campaign of this size. In fact, he commanded a division and did play a significant part, albeit subordinate to Sanders. Grant | Talk 10:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC) this is really good for those children who are in secondary learning history it really help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.8.144 ( talk) 18:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Ataturk's CO was East Paşa, who reported to Liman Paşa. M. Kemal was only a Liutenant Colonel until June 1st 1915, when he was made a Colonel. He ended up taking over command of an area and resources that were way above his pay grade, but by that time most, inlcuding Germans and Enver, had recognized his talents.-- Murat ( talk) 05:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this described as decisive?. Gallipoli was a failur but to descibe the battle as decisive is palpably wrong. The British defeated the Ottoman Turks during WW1. See Allenby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.102.105 ( talk) 16:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
yes but this is about the independence war of turkey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.113.224.112 ( talk) 18:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes, I suppose the Ottomans lost anyway, but it still allowed them not collapse early on in the war. It also meant that the Allies could not send supplies to Russia as easily. Paper Toad ( talk) 19:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm afriad that I have quickfailed this for GA as it contains a severe paucity of references. There should be at least one reference per paragrpah and here there is no where near that quantity. There are also substantial prose and layout problems which would probably have prevented promotion, but at this stage there is no chance of the article passing without thorough referencing. Apologies and Regards, -- Jackyd101 ( talk) 19:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we work on this? This article deserves better.-- Murat ( talk) 00:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
In the middle of the page, Anzac goes from being the name of the forces from down under, to a place which is not on any of the maps. It continues to be compared to geographically, which makes many of the battles hard to place. Thanks, 38.119.205.11 ( talk) 16:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Lyle Monster
There is no inconsistency. Both terms are used. 'Anzac' is a place - actually two places : the Anzac sector of Gallipoli, and Anzac Cove, a small inlet within the sector. It is also how the soldiers are referred to - 'Anzacs'. It is also the name of the holiday - 'Anzac Day' observed in Australian and New Zealand, and has a few other applications as well. I'm curious as to how you concluded that 'Anzac Cove' 'is not on any of the maps'. It's certainly on many maps I've seen concerning the campaign. Hayaman 00:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayaman ( talk • contribs)
Galipolli was not a battle it was a series of battles, over a period of time. More properly this is known as a campaign. Therefore this page should be named teh Galipolli Campaign, not the Battle of Galipolli. Any takers? Jtan163 ( talk) I would suggest by comparison The Battle of the Somme, also known as the Somme Offensive, fought from July to November 1916,. I think traditionally it would be called the battle of the somme, despite taking 5 months. Some battles are slow. Sandpiper ( talk) 19:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The Gallipoli campaign was a series of battles on land and sea fought over a period of ten months in four widely dispersed geographic locations. Hayaman 00:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayaman ( talk • contribs)
Something that's only just occurred to me is that Turkey was still using the Julian calendar in 1915, which was 13 days behind the Gregorian. I presume that "25 April" was the date in the Gregorian calendar, and that the Turks called the same day "12 April". Can anyone confirm this? -- JackofOz ( talk) 10:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [2]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have taken the bold but timely step of changing the article name. I have also moved all relevant articles into the new Category:Gallipoli Campaign. I still need to go through and rename the Category:Battle of Gallipoli Victoria Cross recipients and its subcategories. Minor changes to various articles to reflect the name change have also been completed. Glenn Sisson ( talk) 03:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that there is an enormous amount of vandalism going on recently on this article, can we get someone to protect the page? Kortaggio ( talk) 01:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a photo captioned Heavy artillery from the German battlecruiser Roon, 1915 which to me is a little confusing. SMS Roon was only disarmed in 1916, so the dates don't fit. Also, if the dates are sorted out, & it's the same ship, then it might be interesting to put this information in the ship article. GrahamBould ( talk) 05:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
<<< There was no German Battlecruiser called Roon. The Roon was an Armoured Cruiser. Edited the wording.
It says the French battleship Bouvet exploded under mysterious circumstances. If you click on the Bouvet though, the page clearly asserts what happened (a mine blew it up). This fact is cited and sourced. So could someone fix this error? Uberlieder ( talk) 00:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
It is stated that Ottomans while preparing for the defense of Gallipoli, supposedly decided that it was best to defend the high ground. Nothing could be firther from truth. Commanders on the ground had actually decided that it was best not to allow the attackers to land and gain a foothold in the first place. German general on the other hand, whom Enver trusted with the overall theater, decided that it was best to pull back to high ground and wait for the landings. To make matters worse, Liman Pasa made a very wrong bet on where the first attack would be. He kept most of the forces tied far from the main action, while a very thin line of Turkish defenders bore the brunt of the initial allied attacks and landings. As usual, the other side of the story is not well represented here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.158.17 ( talk) 17:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, I added Slim Dusty to the musical part of the article, because he did these very distinct lines: a heritage was carved in blood / and the fighting man was born // on the rugged slopes of Gallipoli / where the digger earned his name / and the admiration of the Turk / Australia is his name. Very good song, by the way, released back in 1983. -andy 92.229.132.145 ( talk) 19:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I have tidied up the end of this section by mentioning that no real advance was made to take advance of the initial landing, allowing for Turk reinforcments to be brought up. I hope this is fine with everyone as i have made it so that it works in with the first battle (with Mustapha Kemal).-- Willski72 ( talk) 10:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I will not attempt to edit the article, there are too many more knowledgable contributors close at hand. I will make the (for me) blatantly obvious remark that the treatment here is extraordinarily one sided: we learn much about British motives, allied advances and British defeats, not to mention the suffering of those soldiers who's homes lay on the other side of the world and who, thus, had no argument with the Turks. We learn far too little about the campaign's effects on Ottomans military policy, politics, etc. Remember there are two sides to every conflict. In this case you shortchange the narrative of victim in order to magnify the role of the aggressor.
-- Philopedia ( talk) 21:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Who's the aggressor and who's the victim. The Ottomman Empire declared War on the British Empire (note Empire) not the other way round, much more information is known on the British side, which is of course very in depth. Apart from the fact that it built up Mustafa Kemal (who would eventually become Ataturk) not many people know what effect it had on the turk side or the effect on the Ottoman Empire. It did divert Ottoman troops from the Egypt area giving British troops there a break but thats all i know.-- Willski72 ( talk) 09:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Philopedia, excellent observation and a few had tried to raise it before. This whole article certainly reads like a pure British history. 90K Turks died there defending their home against "lads" who traveled half way around the World to defend Colonial interests. It is true that there has been more archival info available on the Alled side.
Turks had no beef with UK, on the contrary, some intellectuals of the time and even including some in government sought a British mandate. Churchill was too hungry for the posessions of the sick man of Europe though. Confiscation of a cruiser built for the Ottman navy, paid by public donations, was the last straw. Enver took a gamble. In any case, I have already filled in many missing aspects of the Turkish story and historical details, from naval engagements to some key land battles.
This battle has a lot greater significance for the Turkish nation and state than what is suggested here. Much work is needed and now there is so much material. It will be done. This is a nice article. Deserves it.
Most definately it needs to focus more on the Turkish side of the affair. By "not many people know" i was backing up Kirrages who made the point about the fact that it is understandable that it is British orientated when you take into account who will read and contribute to this article. As Wikipedia is public and does not hire in professionals this is self-evident. However we must be careful to try and keep it neutral. The Ottoman Empire declared war on Britain, not the other way around. And the two countries were already fighting around Egypt and the Levant. The whole point of this campaign as espoused by Churchill was to quickly capture Constantinople and thus force the Ottomans to come to terms, so that the British Empire could focus its troops on the Western Front. It was nothing to do with splitting up the Ottoman Empire and keeping its provinces for British imperialism (this occurred through League mandates and went to France as well. And Russia had offered this before the Crimean War anyway). In a way this battle helped to forge the Turkish nation out of the old Ottoman Empire, possibly more than any other single event. However, unfortunately, we need an expert.
Willski72 (
talk)
20:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It's easy to snipe at the British Empire, who 'who travelled half way around the World to defend Colonial interests' but that's completely wrong. The First World War began due to German expansions and invasion of Neutral Belgium and Austro-Hungary's advances in the Balkan states and the Ottoman Empire was on these two's side. The Ottoman Empire was the aggressor being that it declared war in the first place... Which clearly places it as the aggressor.
And it's not like the Ottoman's are the anti-Imperialist good guys, the Ottoman EMPIRE should give you a clue why not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.56.58 ( talk) 02:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
hear, hear. good luck finding anything NPOV on this subject - it all stinks of BS to me. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 19:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest the addition of the novel "Birds Without Wings" by Louis de Bernières in which he depicts the Gallipoli Campaign from the Turkish soldiers point of view and does so with much truth and compassion. Chris McEvilly (chrlor@sympatico.ca) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.70.119.188 ( talk) 02:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
For a discussion on when it is appropriate and when it is not to fully-capitalise the noun 'Anzac' see the discussion page on the 'Anzac Day' article.
I note in this article, within the Notes/Citations sections, the following:
6^ Bean, C.E.W. (1941) [1921]. Official Histories – First World War. Volume I – The Story of ANZAC from the outbreak of war to the end of the first phase of the Gallipoli Campaign, May 4, 1915 (11th ed.). Canberra: Australian War Memorial. Cover page.
The original title has the word 'Anzac' - referring to the geographic location on the Gallipoli Peninsula ('the Anzac sector'), within the title, NOT 'ANZAC' (referring to the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps). Bean (the author) never referred to ANZAC without 'the' preceding it, as in 'the A&NZAC').
28^ a b ANZAC Day 2008 - The Gallipoli Campaign, Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs. Accessed 24 March 2009.
The link is broken, but observe: http://www.dva.gov.au/DVASearchResults.aspx?k=anzac%20day for the form of the word used by the Department of Veteran's Affairs.
34^ "'ANZAC Day' in London; King, Queen, and General Birdwood at Services in Abbey," New York Times. April 26, 1916.
Following the link to the actual original article reveals the reference to 'Anzac Day' ; Not 'ANZAC Day' as it is indicated here.
37^ "Aussies forget the NZ in ANZAC", AAP.com.au
As for the point above. Unless someone can present a convincing argument as to why these terms have to be altered and cannot be referred to as they were originally written, I intend to alter the links above accordingly. --Hayaman 00:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
There is a extrange chart at the casualties section, from the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs, I have tried to look at the source itself but its a dead link. The chart claims that the allies suffered 141,000 casualties (Too low, most sources agree with 240K-260K figure). Could someone check this now, look for a "realiable source" and replace the chart or look for a updated link??
I think this deserves some revision and augmentation for clarification purposes, listed under the 'Prelude' section of the article:
"First Sea Lord John Fisher opposed the campaign and instead preferred a direct naval landing on the north coast of Germany, but Churchill won the argument."
This is far too simplistic and inaccurate. It implies that Lord Fisher was against the campaign from the beginning which is false and misleading. Lord Fisher was very much in support of the Dardanelles Campaign right up until the point when things began to go awry and thus proclaimed falsely to the War Council, shortly before his resignation as First Sea Lord and departure from the Admiralty, that he had been against the campaign all along. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBlackWhirlwind ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Am I allowed to quote at length from a book, or is this A) a violation of copyright B) not considered a verifiable source or C) both? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBlackWhirlwind ( talk • contribs) 23:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the article name should be changed to the 'Dardanelles Campaign'. It is already referred to as such in the Encyclopedia Britannica and Americana. Thus I think the name should change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.245.55 ( talk) 08:06, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Any chance of a decent caption for the infobox image(s)? I'd add one myself if I knew anything about them, but unfortunately I don't (hence the problem). Cheers, Ranger Steve ( talk) 07:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The article states "Fisher resigned in May after bitter conflict with Churchill over the campaign. The crisis that followed forced the Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith to end his single-party Liberal Government and form a Coalition Government with the Conservative Party." While I do not dispute that Gallipoli had some influence on the change of government, I believe that the Shell Crisis was the driving force. Wikipedia's Shell Crisis of 1915 and Dan van der Vat's " The Dardanelles Disaster" (chapter 8) support this view. Contrary opinions are welcome. Cwelgo ( talk) 18:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I refer to the following statement: "However, an early proposal to use Greek troops to invade the Gallipoli peninsula was vetoed by Russia as its South Slavic allies would feel threatened by an expansion of Greek power and influence."
This statement underlies a couple of inaccurate or at least highly dubious premises, specifically;
1. That Greece was willing in 1914-1915, to join the Allies. The Allies could not "use" Greek forces without a Greek declaration of war, and in 1915 Greece was still neutral. Around this time Greek politics was split between those who supported the German monarchy (lead by the pro-German King of Greece, Constantine I) and those who wanted to join the Allies. It was not until June 1917 - following the abdictation of Constantine I- that the Greek government finally declared war on Germany.
2. That the Greek armed forces of 1914-1915 were sufficiently well-equipped and trained to engage in the Gallipoli campaign. I am of the opinion that the Greek Army of 1915 would not have been large or strong enough to have participated in a major military conflict against Turkey. The Greeks did not have a substantial navy either (in comparison to the other combatants involved at Gallipoli). It is also evident that when Greece actively went to war against Germany in 1918, Greek troops were provided with significant amounts of Allied War material (such as new weapons, French uniforms etc) and were provided with military training from the Allies.
If this statement is "true" (in some manner that is not clear to the casual reader) it needs to be explained. For instance, it may have been possible that the author of this statement was referring to Greek mercenary troops or Greek volunteers, rather than actual Greek government troops. Further, if Russia did vetoe Greek involvement, might it have been for another reason than for fear of expanding Greek influence (e.g. trade agreements?)
Can anyone clear this matter up with the facts ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illdz ( talk • contribs) 02:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
the way the United Kingdom is listed on this looks a little wierd. France is listed above Frech West Africa, so shouldn't the UK be listed above it's colonies also? And the flag for Newfoundland is wrong Voucherman ( talk) 16:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
There are a couple of references to Anzac as if it were a place, e.g. "launched an offensive at Anzac...", "5 miles north of Anzac..."
I don't know enough about the subject to correct it, but this is surely an error that must be corrected...
92.104.81.253 ( talk) 19:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC) David Crutchley
Does anyone know anything about this public domain image of Turkish bones? [4] If it is casualties from the campaign maybe it can be incorporated into the article. It certainly is striking, but I is seems like a very odd burial practice-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)?
on my casual understanding of the subject the gallipoli campaign, particularly the invasion, was considered a series of incredibly monumental f-ups on both sides even by contemporary military wisdom, and if a military analysis section could be done encyclopedically, with references and maps etc, it would add to the reader's understanding of both this subject and military strategy generally. also on the subject, this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Battle_of_Gallipoli, needs to be looked over. the dates at least may be worth keeping, but since there doesn't seem to be any references it will all have to be redone anyway. 203.206.42.213 ( talk) 17:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC) Mistakes are made in all wars.In this case the major British issues were: 1 The campaign was a side show from the start. 2 The lines of supply were very long.(for the first week the ANZACs had very little water.) 3 The allied forces did not have sufficient troops to overcome a dug in opposition.Normally 3:1 advantage is accepted. 4 In the Anzac cove area the Australian troops were landed in the wrong place by the royal navy.-Not surprising as the maps were 2 degrees out and they then had to scale steep crumbling cliff slopes instead of landing on a flat beach. 5 Security in Egypt was non existent-thousand of troops knew where and approx when they were going.(was talked about in letters home several weeks prior to the start).The campaign was refered to in the media.Cairo was crawling with spies. 6 The British overestimated the effect of a naval bombardment which was pretty haphazard(though they did try to use aircrft to direct the fall of shot-but coms were primative, the planes very slow and when they flew low they were often hit by Turkish guns. 7 There was a big shortage of suitable artillary and the ammunition for guns as the Western Front had priority. 8 Virtually no planning was done to take care of casualties.The British actually discouraged nurses initially.The French had a good hospital set up and later the people of NZ sent a fully equipped hospital ship complete with nurses and doctors. 9 During the most important attack at Gallipoli the Wellingtons actually got to the summit of Chunak Bar but Malone and other were then killed by shells being fired from British warships.The British troops, who relieved them, were soon driven off by a Turkish counter attack. 10 The planing staff was about 10% of what would be considered the correct size in later amphibious operations and they had no experience to draw on. 11 Planning time was ridicilously short -only 6 weeks. 12 The British underestimated the Turkish soldiers who, by and large, were far more experienced in combat than the British-especially the Anzacs,(most of the older Turkish soldiers had served through a brutal 2 year campaign)even though the Turkish basic eqipment (boots and clothing)were poor.The Turks did have good rifles and plenty of rifle ammunition and "bombs"(hand grenades)which were used to good effect at Anzac Cove as the ANZAC soldiers were invariably below the Turks. 11 The amphibious part of the operation was very primitive-troops at Gallipoli were usually towed by steam pinnace to about 1 mile from the shore and then they had to row-average speed about 4mph.Sitting ducks .However at least the Australian commander insisted on landing in the dark-whereas the southern landing was in broad daylight .Elsewhere soldiers had to exit via a hole in the side of a ferry-the Turks just lined up MGs on the hole to slaughter the troops. 12 It is telling that before the campaign started many senior British officers said it has no chance of success. 13 The Turks had a lot of technical assistance from German advisors.They had a reasonable time to prepare camps ,tracks roads,wire,mines and MG strong points. They were familiar with the landscape,they had mobile reserves,they had the advantage of height, their lines of communication and logistics were short, and they were defending their homeland (for the second time in a few years). With 20/20 hindsight it wasn't one of Winston's better ideas-and he paid the price. The long term effect was that Britain could not supply the Russian forces with the modern supplies they desparately needed -they fought on gamely but by 1917 were on the point of collapse.It is intersting to ponder what would have happened had the straits been forced and the British maintained a flow of supplies to the Tsar's forces-no communist victory? No surrender? No transfer of German troops for the massive and nearly succesful attack on the Western Front? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.34.4 ( talk) 04:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
We are told "The film Gallipoli (1981) featuring Mel Gibson described the experiences of two Australian sprinters who volunteered and fought at Gallipoli but gave a fairly misleading impression of the roles of the British Armed Forces."
Nothing more. No source. Seems quite a POV statement. I don't know if it's true, but nor will any other reader. I believe we either need a source (and I wouldn't know where to look) or deletion of the words from "but..." onwards. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Wow, this conversation has stretched out over time. Just referring back to my post that started the thread, my suggestion of "deletion of the words from 'but...' onwards" has been implemented. It allows the film to stand on its own. As for the POVness of the film, I suspect every country makes movies that make its own forces look good in war, and it's probably true of this one. Hardly controversial. HiLo48 ( talk) 04:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
As an FYI. I've uploaded a number of high quality maps that were online at the AWM, in both PNG and JPG formats. They include Ottoman and Entente maps, a couple of which are trench map. See Category:Maps of the Battle of Gallipoli at the commons.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 15:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)