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when ruler of Kijevian Ruthenia took over Red Cities... Is the Kievan Rus' being referred to here? I hesitate to correct it. "Red Cities" is a phrase that could be lightly explained to an English-speaking readership. Perhaps with some reference to history... Wetman 19:34, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Material collected from elsewhere on this page, without editing)
Question to contributors: I was wondering, is it still very popular in SW Ukraine and SE Poland to refer to the area as "Halychyna/Galicia". Should this article be separated into one for the original Eastern section, and one for the Austrian broader area?
Continuing the dialogue with Halibutt (Hail, Halibutt!)
Well, My perception too, was that Galicia was still in the area's consciousness. My point in bringing up the 'narrow' sense (my own label, but accurate, I think) is just to point out that a smart burgher in Tarnow in say, 1750 would have known he was not Galician, and that to meet one, he'd have to hail a west-bound wagon or take a long walk toward the sunrise. (and, au-contraire for a town burgher in say, Sambir/Sambor). But in 1820, his son would be living in Galicia!!!
Also, when did the historical settlement by the Poles into the Eastern portions start? Any particular landmarks to be offered here? Any traces pre-"Ruthenian Voievodship?" Let me know; I'm open to learning. Halibutt
Oh, and what was the border area from 1240 to 1349?
I was wondering, how to incorporate the important role this region played in the development of the Polish nation from 1400 on, esp 1400-1772?
I think that these question lie at the root of an effort to arrive at a NPOV article between the two sides of the issue, Polish vs. Ukrainian.
Sincerely, 24.105.197.133
I can't say NOBODY knows when influence on both sides start. Facts are plentiful, for example about Ukrainian/Ruthenian, control in 981, and the founding of places like Halych about then, and Lviv in the 1200s, but Polish historical monuments in the area from say, Sianok to the region of Kamianets-Podilsky seem to be pretty much absent. Or, maybe just unknown to me.
As for 1860, many Poles were already there, especially in the big cities and larger towns. But they kept coming after 1860 too, markedly changing the settlement patterns over the next 80 years.
I'm not sure what better word than settlement would fit here. The Poles arrived founding many castles, some major cities, even. They didn't slowly extend their nation farm by farm from Sandomierz and Lublin, they travelled past miles of Ukrainians and set up outposts! They eventually created heavily Polish islands in a Ukrainian sea. And they made a peninsula from Peremsyl'/Przemyshl to L'viv/Lwow!
And, yes, some cities became very multi-ethnic later! One reason among many: The Polish authorities recruited Jews from around the more anti-Semitic areas of Europe to take up tax-farming in Ukraine.
So, Halibutt, keep up the flow of information, but nothing too fishy please! 204.105.197.133 - Feb 22 2004
I wonder, why is the Cyrillic letter Г being transliterated as H, and not G? At least in Serbian Cyrillic it's that way, and it makes more sense with reference to the Polish and the English spellings... do the Ukrainians really pronounce it as [x]? (I believe that might be the right phonetic spelling, correct me if I'm wrong...) -- Shallot 21:56, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I don't see any treatment of this issue (called "Transliteration" by linguists) on our Ukrainian language article site. Shallot, I'll take your word on the Serbian language, and yes, you are correct that using "G" is more consistent with Polish language patterns. In Ukrainian, however, there is almost no use of the "G" sound. The letter you asked about is essentially the "H" sound. In the 1920s and 30s, during the renaissance of the Ukrainian language, Orthographic Congresses in Soviet-ruled Ukraine resurrected a letter from some three centuries prior for the very rare times a "G" sound occured. The letter was essentially the same as the one you inquire about, except for a small upward hook at the right end. The Soviet authorities banned this letter, arguing that this further distinguished Ukrainian from Russian. The letter was accepted in the emigration, however, and has gradually been re-introduced since independence. Since Russian has essentially no "H" sound (except for the southern dialect, influenced by Ukrainian, it is only speakers whose primary language is Russian that pronounce the "H" as an "X." Genyo 20:43, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, there Halibutt, I see your point--but I don't know what "Cyrillic X" means, and I don't think most readers do either, although the issue can be looked up on the "Cyrillic" site. Genyo 01:08, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Halibutt's quote was somehow corrupted to mention letter Х twice rather than Г, the article's sentence is consistent. Although, I'm still not sure that it implies that they also say the word "Galicia" with the G sounding like a H... it would be good if a native speaker could confirm it. -- Shallot 12:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I am writing as a native speaker of Ukrainian and one familiar with linguistics in general as well as other Slavic languages. First off, let's recall that there is no a single Cyrillic alphabet, as many western sources imply, typically while quoting the modern Russian alphabet, but several variants, since each language saw fit to modify and improvise. Regarding Cyrillic "Х", to me this velar fricative is indistinguishable from the sound spelled "ch" in Polish and German (and I know each language to some degree). One may argue about whether it is pronounced more (IPA [χ]) or less [ç] harshly, but all Ukrainian speakers will recognize this sound as being written as "Х".
Second, the letter "Г"/"г" is pronounced [h] in Ukrainian. (Again, arguments about the degree of voicing may be had, but these are really regionalisms and not significant to cause any confusion.) The letter for the [g] sound is "Ґ"/"ґ". (I hope your browser is displaying these correctly; my Firefox is not.) As mentioned elsewhere, "Г"/"г" did double-duty under the Soviets since "Ґ"/"ґ", a letter not present in Russian, was declared to be bourgeois-nationalist.
Where is the source of confusion? It is several-fold.
This is probably more than anyone really wants to know on the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bejmark ( talk • contribs)
The map (Galicia.jpg) seems to show up fine only when previewing changes to the article, but in the article itself it shows up as a missing image. Help anyone? Livajo
English: Galicia and Lodomeria
Latin: Galicia et Lodomeria
German: Galizien und Lodomerien
Polish: Galicja i Lodomeria (also Golicja i Głodomeria, or "naked and starving")
Ukrainian: Halychyna i Volodymyria (Галичина і Володимирія)
Hungarian: Gácsország és Lodoméria
Ukrainian: Halych (Галич)
Russian: Galich (Галич)
Polish: Halicz
Latin: Galic
German: Halitsch / Galitsch
Ukrainian: Volodymyr Volyns'kyi (Володимир Волинський)
Russian: Vladimir Volynskii (Владимир Волынский)
Polish: Włodzimierz Wołyński
–
Kpalion
(talk) 11:00, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Shallot, listen. Like in the Russian empire, Ukrainians were also discriminated in the Polish empire. Therefore a lot of ukrainian words are twisted around. In English, the word you're asking about is pronounced as "Huh-lich" by Ukrainians. Russians pronounce it as Galich because of plain translation of the word jackdaw, which is the symbol of the city. I'm suspecting the same goes for Poles as I have quite limited knowledge of their languege. And the rest of the world just go with the flow.
Now, Halibutt. Ukrainian X IS the cyrillic X, because that is the alphabet that Ukrainians write with and they both are pronounced in Polish as "ch". But Ukrainian G is pronounced more like the english H. The link that you provided was written by the confused "russofil". Now Genyo perfectly explains what this author failed to do about the reason why the Ukrainian G differs from the Russian one. There was no Old East Slavic language. There was an Old Slavic language that contained the cyrillic alphabet and was incorporated into Kievan Rus. And there also was Peter the Great, whom the author don't recall. Please also note that the Rus and Russia two diffrent concepts, yet Kiev ramains as a capital to its loyal people.
OK. I was born in the city of
Brody. Today it's a small town of the Lvivian region (just over 20K). Later I resided in
Ivano-Frankivsk, which is around an hour away from
Halich.
The first recallection of that city you can find no later than in 898. At the beginning it was a capital of a big principality of
Halich, which at one point of time has reached the
Black sea coast. There one of the graet Dukes of this pricipality has found the city of Maliy Halich (small Halich), which today is the city of
Galati on Dunube in Romanian
Dobrudja. You can find this fact in the book "History of Ukraine-Rus" by the Ukrainian historian, folklorist, ethnograph, and politician
Mikhaylo Hrushevskiy.
At that time the Halich pricipality became part of the huge state of
Kievan Rus. After internal conflicts of the
Graeter(Kievan) Rus and the invasion of the
Mongol-Tatars in the 13 century,
Halich together with
Volyn existed as a
separate state for a short period of time before becoming part of the
Polish throne. The
Polish empire at that time was so strong that it even conquered Moscow and tried to annex the Moscovites to the
Rzeczpospolita.
Anyway since than and up until the
first partition of Poland(18th century), Halich was part of the great
Polish empire that streched from the Baltic sea to the "shining" Black sea (wid morze do morze, pardon my Polish). But even than Polish culture was very popular in the area.
We can argue about the same thing for ages, but the important thing that the city's name is Ukrainian (even though some call it
Ruthenian, which is simply Latinized version of
Rusian - series of lands that were a part of the
Kievan Rus) and is called
Галич and the area - Галичина
[2](Halichina). And as I said before the name comes from the city's symbol. Now I'm not sure how you translate and pronounce
jackdaw in Polish, so I'm sorry if I was mistaken. I thought it's galka as in Russian.
Interesting fact was shown in the recent movie about king Arthur
"King Arthur" where he was
Sarmatian, from the Ukrainian steppes. Maybe this is why today's
France was called
Gaul as a lot of
Sarmatians were defending the borders of the
Roman empire, maybe that was the reason why the
Gaul's army was the strongest in the empire.
From the article "...Others claim that the name is of Slavic origin – either from halytsa / galitsa meaning "a naked (forestless) hill",... " - I truely doubt that, but if it would mean "a naked (forestless) hill", it is more like holytsa / golitsa at least in the eastern Slavic languages. I'm very curious about what lead the author to this meaning.
From the article "...The jackdaw was used as a charge in the city's coat-of-arms and later also in the coat-of-arms of Galicia. The name, however, predates the coat-of-arms which may represent folk etymology..." - This part seams to be more logical, however the city's symbol also could predate the coat-of-arms, and which probably did. The name also could draw its roots based on the old Slavic religion.
In Salt: A World History (p. 54), Mark Kurlansky writes about the Celts:
He refers to salt mines at Wieliczka and Bochnia (is that in Galicia?).
This neatly connects the names of Gauls and Galicia, although note that the name isn't Celtic, but Greco-Roman in origin. It's conceivable that the jackdaw was chosen as a symbol because its local name resembled an original place name with a different etymology.
Anyone know if there's any other support for Kurlansky's version? — Michael Z. 2005-05-27 19:16 Z
Galicia means very different things to different people. The Spanish region aside, Galicia is still an ambiguous name even if we know we're talking about central Europe:
I just come back from a holiday there "Krakow" and I could have gone to the salt mine which was near by, but didnt have time, but I did walk up to Krakow mound which reminded me of a Celtic fort, the likes I have seen in England and Wales, also there is a Krakow Dragon myth just like the Celtic mytology of Britain, ie the welsh Dragon. oh also I read just recently they discoverd a Celtic village just 4 km from krakow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.237.142.20 ( talk) 13:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I support Michael's suggestion. The current article for Galicia-1 and Galicia-2 is already Galicia (Central Europe). It's lead should be modified to say that it's not only "the largest and northernmost province of Austria from 1772 until 1918" but a historic territory that changed hands in history as that article says further down anyway. -- Irpen 21:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with splitting this article but I agree with expanding of other existing articles or even creating the new ones as per below. Let's be consistent first of all. Galicia is a historical territory whose borders were moving but it is still more or less defined. This article is supposed to be about the territory. For Galicia-1 above in the narrow sense, one could expand the "Województwo Ruskie" or other voivodships articles. I won't object even to acreation of a new article about the history of the territory under the PLC period if it cannot be logically described in voivodship articles. For Galicia-2, an article called Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria would be in order. But the "Galicia" article could just follow briefly on the history of the region and refer on the way to the Galician-Volhynian Principality (a proposed namechange for current Halych-Vohlynia), the voivodship(s) and the kingdom articles as {{main}} for appropriate period.
Of course much should be done, but a quick and immediate accomodation to address my suggestion would simply be a rewrite of the lead to state clearly, that G. is a historic territory rather than this or that administrative unit of this or that state. AND we will theh have separate article for the statehood units. How does this sound? -- Irpen 00:44, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I should probably be wary about wading into Eastern European ethnic complexities, but is there any reason that the awkward slash contstruction "Ukranian/Ruthenian" is used so much in this article? Can't we just use one term throughout, with a note on the first use that "the language/ethnicity that we would today call 'Ukranian' was through the 17 and 1800s generally referred to as 'Ruthenian'?" -- Jfruh 22:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jfruh:
Your suggestion has some merit, and, indeed, some historians writing in Ukrainian do use the term "Ukrainian" throughout with such an initial explanation. After all, the vast majority of Galician Ruthenians who were Greek Catholics did turn into nationally conscious Ukrainians by 1914, certainly by the establishment of the Second Polish Republic in the early 20s. The problem arises, however, that some of the Muscophiles actually came to consider themselves to be Russians and rejected a modern Ukrainian national identity. By 1914, they were a very small minority but they did, in fact, exist. I think that it would be awkward to refer to them as Muscophile 'Ukrainians', since they so abhorred this name. A similar problem in nomenclature exists among Transcarpathian Ruthenians who emigrated in large numbers to the Unites States during the Great Economic Emigration. Their descendants, or, at least some of them, to this day reject the Ukrainian name and form a community separate from the Ukrainian Americans. So the problem is a complex one with no easy way out. I remain open with regard to resolving it. Regards, Author
Would there be merit to using Rusin (Rusyn?) instead of the Latinized "Ruthenian"? logologist 04:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jfruh: I have ammended the article along the lines which you suggested. You might also be interested in knowing that a similar situation existed among the Polish peasantry which lacked a national consciousness at this time as well. The Polish aristocracy and gentry generally called themselves "Poles" while the peasantry were often referred to as "Mazurs", and, we know that in 1846 they turned sharply against their masters and rejected the Polish patriotism of the insurgents. But they too with the advent of democratic and egalitarian ideas were eventually integrated into the Polish political nation, just as the Ruthenian peasantry became integrated into the Ukrainian political nation. I am given to understand that even in today's Poland there are some "Goraly" or mountainfolk who reject the Polish name just as certain modern Ruthenians, if I may be permitted to use the term (see Rusyns), do the same for the Ukrainian name and identity.
By the way, I deleted the title by A.J.P.Taylor from the bibliography and replaced it with more pertinent titles because it does not deal specifically with Galicia, and, moreover, is filled with glib and misleading generalizations. Taylor certainly did not know much about Galicia and had little respect for its inhabitants. Regards, Author.
To whoever keeps inserting the term "Russophiles" into the final paragraph of the Galician Autonomy section: My original wording of "other Ruthenian groups" as contenders for political power with the Poles is, in my opinion, at present the only fair wording here, as the Russophiles were never a real contender for power in Galicia and remained a very small group right until the beginning of the Russian occupation in 1914. At that time, with the support of the Russian occupation authorities they for the first time, I believe, became important. The phrase "Other Ruthenian groups" is , I know, more vague, but I think, more accurate. One problem here is that a definitive general political history of these events still remains to be written, even in Ukrainian, so we have to tread very cautiously here. I suggest that you put your ideas about Russophiles down here on the 'Talk' page for now so that we can work something reasonable out. Regards, Author
Why is there a revert war over "Russophiles"/"other Ukrainian groups"? Anonymous, are you implying that other groups are included, or do you have a problem with the label Russophiles? Русофіли is an accepted name in general histories of the period. Please explain a change before reverting more than once, or you just waste all of our time. — Michael Z. 2006-01-3 17:32 Z
Here's what I removed from Galicia and Ludomaria, which I made into a redirect.
It does not seem very useful. I don't see how it agrees with what is written it this article. Piet 10:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
"[[Frank E. Sysy]]n": is something going on here with a declined form of a name in some language I'm unfamiliar with? Or is this a badly formed link? (and is this person worth a link at all?) - Jmabel | Talk 18:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The expression "historical region currently split between Poland and Ukraine." is highly confusing, as the Austrian Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria included a large portion of Lesser Poland, that never formed a part of the duchy of Galicia and Lodomeria. The sentence should be altered to become more correct. Corelli
[3]? Perhaps I'm not following the terminology correctly, but this seems like it adds a redundancy and/or jumps around in chronological order. Before this edit, we already had "[Galicia] was created from the territories taken from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the partitions of Poland and lasted until the dissolution of Austria-Hungary at the end of World War I." Lysy added (somewhat before that) "For several centuries the territory belonged to the Crown of the Polish Kingdom." Is there a relevant distinction between the Crown of the Polish Kingdom and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? And, if so, is there a reason not to put the two statements adjacent to one another? - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Normally, when I come through these articles, I see a few small problems like this and I can get enough from context to clean them up. But, in this case, the problems with these two new paragraphs are so large that I don't trust my guesses, because with so many problems I could be misunderstanding entirely; in the case of the first sentence of the first paragraph here, I don't even have a guess.
First problematic paragraph:
The fall of Poland and its eventual dissolution were not only a consequence of the internal disorder; it offered also a welcome way for the rising European great powers Prussia, Austria and Russia. With support of Prussia and Russia Stanislaus Poniatowski was selected to the king in 1764, with whom these countries wanted to secure themselves influence on Poland.
I can't even parse most of this. Depending how I try to read the first sentence:
If no one can paraphrase this coherently, we should simply delete this sentence.
As for the second sentence, the only way I can make sense of it is to assume that "whom" refers back to Stanislaus Poniatowski, but the grammar of the sentence pretty much rules out that possibility. If I have understood this sentence correctly, one correct way to say this would be:
With support of Prussia and Russia, Stanislaus Poniatowski was selected king in 1764; through him, these countries wanted to secure influence on Poland for themselves.
Second problematic paragraph:
From June 1782 by January 1786 so 14,735 colonists came into the country. They either settled in either existing villages or founded their own. In East Galicia, where under the still more backward agriculture of the Ruthenians an improvement appeared still more desirable by the settlement of immigrants from the German countries, no national country was available. The Austrian administration therefore successfully tried to energize the Polish large land owners to settle also on its goods German colonists under similar conditions (Private colonisation so mentioned).
- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
As I wrote above, "the problems with these two new paragraphs are so large that I don't trust my guesses, because with so many problems I could be misunderstanding entirely." I came here because I was hoping to point up the problems so that someone more knowledgable on the topic might be able to sort this out. How is the {{ sofixit}} you addressed to me supposed to help? I have just done what I could to help. If you like, I will simply delete the paragraphs: that is the only way I can "fix" this. I was trying to be more cooperative than that: why does that earn me a rebuke? - Jmabel | Talk 01:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Second World War and Distrikt Galizien is also really ugly, but I'm not qualified to prettify it as I know nothing about the history... Gilded Lily 03:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Roman Shukhevych, leader of UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), was removed without comment from the list of names. I have no idea what this is about. Perhaps someone else does. - Jmabel | Talk 19:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following from the section Galicia and Lodomeria in different languages:
Please note that both hallstadt and la tene celtic cultures were prevelent in this region before roman or later tribes hence the celtic/GALLIC name simple really!
It's almost incoherent, it was obviously at best misplaced. If there is something meaningful (and citable) here, please feel free to restore more appropriately. - Jmabel | Talk 08:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I see no reason to divide the personalities into national sections. This is problematic at least for some personalities of both Polish and Jewish afiliation and, for example, Polish minister appears under Jewish heading. There are some other cases too. I think that usually in list of this type (personalities from a multinational city or region) we give names and professions, sometimes nationalities too (see e.g. Wroclaw, Strassburg..), all in one section ordered alphabetically. So I rework it here as well. -- Beaumont (@) 17:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
...done. By the way, I expanded the list and it seems that it is still incomplete. When it grows it could be convenient to move it to a separate article, just as it was done for Strassburg, for exapmle. -- Beaumont (@) 23:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the list to a separate article, hope nobody minds. Quantpole 10:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
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Is there a special name for this process in Polish and Ukrainian historiography?
Are there any special reasons for this migration?
Similar one happened in Croatia, at that time, particularly in Dalmatia, because of peronospora and Wine Charter later, two things that destroyed local prosperous export good, wine.
Kubura (
talk)
10:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is filled with factual mistakes and clearly exhibits the Nazi nostalgia that still plagues this part of the world. 92.16.226.13 ( talk) 22:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed this info on the events of 1846 from the page since it is somewhat of a tangent: Interesting things is, that there was a plan, made by Hotel Lambert agents, that also considered the possible uprising in Slovakia and Croatia. Conspiracy was discovered thanks to treachery of agent Antoni Rieth, the very author of the plan of the uprising. Austrian authorities have finally discovered whole net of these agents acting on Balkans. Important role had the Croatian journal Branislav, finally banned in 1845. [1] Mike Stoyik ( talk) 03:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm puzzled with this map, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galiz18.gif , presented in the article. Do we have any evidence that "West Galicia" existed back in 18th century ? I thought it was a more recent invention. -- Lysy talk 16:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Many thanks. I wonder if this/such explanation could make it somehow to the article ? -- Lysy talk 20:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I must confess that I have learnt about the Galicia from this article. Being a student of history, I got interested in it. I read bit of it and simultaneously checked it on Google Earth. Simple query 'Galicia' on the Google Map Search, took me to a place in Spain. After that I tried to locate it in Poland and Ukraine. However, I am still struggling with the exact geographical region to which the area belongs.
My humble submission is that those who have direct knowledge and it is discernible from the contents of the Discussion on this page, that there are people who have direct knowledge of the place, must bring out a better map of the area. Mere a suggestion!!!--Sumir 12:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumir Sharma ( talk • contribs)
Just Galitzia, to avoid homonimy with Galicia in Spain, a.k.a. Galiza in Galician ( the Galician and the Portuguese are basically the same language). The Spanish Galicia/Galiza is named after Gallaecia, that in turn seems to be named after the Gauls (like Gaul and Galatia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 ( talk) 10:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Ronhjones (Talk) 18:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Galicia (eastern Europe) →
Galicia (Eastern Europe) — The article has been moved back and forth a number of times, the main question being how to describe the location of Galicia:
Eastern Europe,
Central Europe or
East-Central Europe. All of these terms (according to respective articles) are quite oblique, mean different regions in different sources and may be considered derogatory. While I try to be neutral on socio-political issues and would accede to anything in paranthesis, the present title with lowercase e is certainly improper. —
94.29.52.50 (
talk)
17:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
For convenience, here is the sequence of titles:
Also note that the respetive category is Category:Galicia (Central Europe), with several subcats, and on commons:Category:Galicia (Central Europe). Unless the present article is restored to original title, these cats should be renamed. 94.29.52.50 ( talk) 17:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Now that the article suggests Galicia lies in Eastern Europe I'm tempted to add more info on that in the header. The problem is that Galicia has always been part of Central Europe, both geographically, culturally and architecturally. The article on Austria-Hungary places it in Central Europe - and rightfully so. And Galicia is Austro-Hungarian creation in all possible aspects.
Go to Krakow or Lvov and you'll see buildings reminiscent of Vienna and Munich and not Moscow, Austro-Hungarian cuisine (and not Eastern Slavic), you'll encounter people using gallicisms in their daily speech (in this context meaning mostly borrowings from other languages of former Austria-Hungary like German, Hungarian and even Italian), and so on. Not to mention the fact that the Geographical centre of Europe is either north, south or even east of Galicia, but not to the west (note that one of the pretending towns is actually in Galicia).
Having said that, I believe East-Central Europe could be acceptable if Central Europe hurts someone (?), but Eastern? Come on, this version doesn't hold much water (and judging by the books available from Google Books English-speaking scholars think likewise). Alternatively we could modify the articles on Austria, Hungary, Poland and Germany to call them Eastern European countries. Of course this would be counter-factual, but that at least would be consistent. // Halibu tt 23:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
One thing that we can be sure of is that it's definitely not in Western Europe. So how about Galicia (not Western Europe). Or, even better, Galicia (not the one in Spain)? — Kpalion (talk) 16:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Please verify with Yiddish Typewriter. Regards · לערי ריינהארט· T· m: Th· T· email me· 20:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the only proper way the article should be named. The division between Central, or rather Western and Eastern Europe was tradicionally and historically based on the Latin (Roman Catholic Church, baptized by Vatican) vs Greek (East Orthodox Church, baptized by Byznatium) speheres of influence. Likewise, this obviously implicates the differences in culture, language spoken during religious rituals (latin/greek). Finally, the distinction can be made also upon the terms of West Slavic (tradicionally roman-catholic) and East Slavic (east-orthodox) nations, where West Slavs inhabited Galicia and East Slavs inhabitet East Galicia. That's why Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia are always considered as being part of the so called West (not maybe strictly geopgraphically, but culturally) and Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia of the European East.-- 83.12.91.242 ( talk) 13:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Languages on Wikipedia that add geographical region to that term, us it in Central or middle Europe context. -- Rejedef ( talk) 17:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think I got to to object to inclusion of this text [5], at least as it is being presented. The source is pretty clear that this is the point of view of German (in the wide sense)-nationalists at best, and propaganda at worst. It does not portray this information as factual but rather as a reflection of how Austrians justified their administration of conquered territory.
More generally, come on, it's usually the case that a power that conquers another land will justify its occupation by describing the natives as "barbarians" who need to be "civilized". It's how the British justified their empire, how the Americans justified their treatment of Native Americans, how Southern whites justified slavery, and hell, it's probably even how Poles justified their treatment of Ukrainians.
So the passage needs to be rewritten or removed. VolunteerMarek 20:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
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when ruler of Kijevian Ruthenia took over Red Cities... Is the Kievan Rus' being referred to here? I hesitate to correct it. "Red Cities" is a phrase that could be lightly explained to an English-speaking readership. Perhaps with some reference to history... Wetman 19:34, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Material collected from elsewhere on this page, without editing)
Question to contributors: I was wondering, is it still very popular in SW Ukraine and SE Poland to refer to the area as "Halychyna/Galicia". Should this article be separated into one for the original Eastern section, and one for the Austrian broader area?
Continuing the dialogue with Halibutt (Hail, Halibutt!)
Well, My perception too, was that Galicia was still in the area's consciousness. My point in bringing up the 'narrow' sense (my own label, but accurate, I think) is just to point out that a smart burgher in Tarnow in say, 1750 would have known he was not Galician, and that to meet one, he'd have to hail a west-bound wagon or take a long walk toward the sunrise. (and, au-contraire for a town burgher in say, Sambir/Sambor). But in 1820, his son would be living in Galicia!!!
Also, when did the historical settlement by the Poles into the Eastern portions start? Any particular landmarks to be offered here? Any traces pre-"Ruthenian Voievodship?" Let me know; I'm open to learning. Halibutt
Oh, and what was the border area from 1240 to 1349?
I was wondering, how to incorporate the important role this region played in the development of the Polish nation from 1400 on, esp 1400-1772?
I think that these question lie at the root of an effort to arrive at a NPOV article between the two sides of the issue, Polish vs. Ukrainian.
Sincerely, 24.105.197.133
I can't say NOBODY knows when influence on both sides start. Facts are plentiful, for example about Ukrainian/Ruthenian, control in 981, and the founding of places like Halych about then, and Lviv in the 1200s, but Polish historical monuments in the area from say, Sianok to the region of Kamianets-Podilsky seem to be pretty much absent. Or, maybe just unknown to me.
As for 1860, many Poles were already there, especially in the big cities and larger towns. But they kept coming after 1860 too, markedly changing the settlement patterns over the next 80 years.
I'm not sure what better word than settlement would fit here. The Poles arrived founding many castles, some major cities, even. They didn't slowly extend their nation farm by farm from Sandomierz and Lublin, they travelled past miles of Ukrainians and set up outposts! They eventually created heavily Polish islands in a Ukrainian sea. And they made a peninsula from Peremsyl'/Przemyshl to L'viv/Lwow!
And, yes, some cities became very multi-ethnic later! One reason among many: The Polish authorities recruited Jews from around the more anti-Semitic areas of Europe to take up tax-farming in Ukraine.
So, Halibutt, keep up the flow of information, but nothing too fishy please! 204.105.197.133 - Feb 22 2004
I wonder, why is the Cyrillic letter Г being transliterated as H, and not G? At least in Serbian Cyrillic it's that way, and it makes more sense with reference to the Polish and the English spellings... do the Ukrainians really pronounce it as [x]? (I believe that might be the right phonetic spelling, correct me if I'm wrong...) -- Shallot 21:56, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I don't see any treatment of this issue (called "Transliteration" by linguists) on our Ukrainian language article site. Shallot, I'll take your word on the Serbian language, and yes, you are correct that using "G" is more consistent with Polish language patterns. In Ukrainian, however, there is almost no use of the "G" sound. The letter you asked about is essentially the "H" sound. In the 1920s and 30s, during the renaissance of the Ukrainian language, Orthographic Congresses in Soviet-ruled Ukraine resurrected a letter from some three centuries prior for the very rare times a "G" sound occured. The letter was essentially the same as the one you inquire about, except for a small upward hook at the right end. The Soviet authorities banned this letter, arguing that this further distinguished Ukrainian from Russian. The letter was accepted in the emigration, however, and has gradually been re-introduced since independence. Since Russian has essentially no "H" sound (except for the southern dialect, influenced by Ukrainian, it is only speakers whose primary language is Russian that pronounce the "H" as an "X." Genyo 20:43, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, there Halibutt, I see your point--but I don't know what "Cyrillic X" means, and I don't think most readers do either, although the issue can be looked up on the "Cyrillic" site. Genyo 01:08, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Halibutt's quote was somehow corrupted to mention letter Х twice rather than Г, the article's sentence is consistent. Although, I'm still not sure that it implies that they also say the word "Galicia" with the G sounding like a H... it would be good if a native speaker could confirm it. -- Shallot 12:11, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I am writing as a native speaker of Ukrainian and one familiar with linguistics in general as well as other Slavic languages. First off, let's recall that there is no a single Cyrillic alphabet, as many western sources imply, typically while quoting the modern Russian alphabet, but several variants, since each language saw fit to modify and improvise. Regarding Cyrillic "Х", to me this velar fricative is indistinguishable from the sound spelled "ch" in Polish and German (and I know each language to some degree). One may argue about whether it is pronounced more (IPA [χ]) or less [ç] harshly, but all Ukrainian speakers will recognize this sound as being written as "Х".
Second, the letter "Г"/"г" is pronounced [h] in Ukrainian. (Again, arguments about the degree of voicing may be had, but these are really regionalisms and not significant to cause any confusion.) The letter for the [g] sound is "Ґ"/"ґ". (I hope your browser is displaying these correctly; my Firefox is not.) As mentioned elsewhere, "Г"/"г" did double-duty under the Soviets since "Ґ"/"ґ", a letter not present in Russian, was declared to be bourgeois-nationalist.
Where is the source of confusion? It is several-fold.
This is probably more than anyone really wants to know on the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bejmark ( talk • contribs)
The map (Galicia.jpg) seems to show up fine only when previewing changes to the article, but in the article itself it shows up as a missing image. Help anyone? Livajo
English: Galicia and Lodomeria
Latin: Galicia et Lodomeria
German: Galizien und Lodomerien
Polish: Galicja i Lodomeria (also Golicja i Głodomeria, or "naked and starving")
Ukrainian: Halychyna i Volodymyria (Галичина і Володимирія)
Hungarian: Gácsország és Lodoméria
Ukrainian: Halych (Галич)
Russian: Galich (Галич)
Polish: Halicz
Latin: Galic
German: Halitsch / Galitsch
Ukrainian: Volodymyr Volyns'kyi (Володимир Волинський)
Russian: Vladimir Volynskii (Владимир Волынский)
Polish: Włodzimierz Wołyński
–
Kpalion
(talk) 11:00, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Shallot, listen. Like in the Russian empire, Ukrainians were also discriminated in the Polish empire. Therefore a lot of ukrainian words are twisted around. In English, the word you're asking about is pronounced as "Huh-lich" by Ukrainians. Russians pronounce it as Galich because of plain translation of the word jackdaw, which is the symbol of the city. I'm suspecting the same goes for Poles as I have quite limited knowledge of their languege. And the rest of the world just go with the flow.
Now, Halibutt. Ukrainian X IS the cyrillic X, because that is the alphabet that Ukrainians write with and they both are pronounced in Polish as "ch". But Ukrainian G is pronounced more like the english H. The link that you provided was written by the confused "russofil". Now Genyo perfectly explains what this author failed to do about the reason why the Ukrainian G differs from the Russian one. There was no Old East Slavic language. There was an Old Slavic language that contained the cyrillic alphabet and was incorporated into Kievan Rus. And there also was Peter the Great, whom the author don't recall. Please also note that the Rus and Russia two diffrent concepts, yet Kiev ramains as a capital to its loyal people.
OK. I was born in the city of
Brody. Today it's a small town of the Lvivian region (just over 20K). Later I resided in
Ivano-Frankivsk, which is around an hour away from
Halich.
The first recallection of that city you can find no later than in 898. At the beginning it was a capital of a big principality of
Halich, which at one point of time has reached the
Black sea coast. There one of the graet Dukes of this pricipality has found the city of Maliy Halich (small Halich), which today is the city of
Galati on Dunube in Romanian
Dobrudja. You can find this fact in the book "History of Ukraine-Rus" by the Ukrainian historian, folklorist, ethnograph, and politician
Mikhaylo Hrushevskiy.
At that time the Halich pricipality became part of the huge state of
Kievan Rus. After internal conflicts of the
Graeter(Kievan) Rus and the invasion of the
Mongol-Tatars in the 13 century,
Halich together with
Volyn existed as a
separate state for a short period of time before becoming part of the
Polish throne. The
Polish empire at that time was so strong that it even conquered Moscow and tried to annex the Moscovites to the
Rzeczpospolita.
Anyway since than and up until the
first partition of Poland(18th century), Halich was part of the great
Polish empire that streched from the Baltic sea to the "shining" Black sea (wid morze do morze, pardon my Polish). But even than Polish culture was very popular in the area.
We can argue about the same thing for ages, but the important thing that the city's name is Ukrainian (even though some call it
Ruthenian, which is simply Latinized version of
Rusian - series of lands that were a part of the
Kievan Rus) and is called
Галич and the area - Галичина
[2](Halichina). And as I said before the name comes from the city's symbol. Now I'm not sure how you translate and pronounce
jackdaw in Polish, so I'm sorry if I was mistaken. I thought it's galka as in Russian.
Interesting fact was shown in the recent movie about king Arthur
"King Arthur" where he was
Sarmatian, from the Ukrainian steppes. Maybe this is why today's
France was called
Gaul as a lot of
Sarmatians were defending the borders of the
Roman empire, maybe that was the reason why the
Gaul's army was the strongest in the empire.
From the article "...Others claim that the name is of Slavic origin – either from halytsa / galitsa meaning "a naked (forestless) hill",... " - I truely doubt that, but if it would mean "a naked (forestless) hill", it is more like holytsa / golitsa at least in the eastern Slavic languages. I'm very curious about what lead the author to this meaning.
From the article "...The jackdaw was used as a charge in the city's coat-of-arms and later also in the coat-of-arms of Galicia. The name, however, predates the coat-of-arms which may represent folk etymology..." - This part seams to be more logical, however the city's symbol also could predate the coat-of-arms, and which probably did. The name also could draw its roots based on the old Slavic religion.
In Salt: A World History (p. 54), Mark Kurlansky writes about the Celts:
He refers to salt mines at Wieliczka and Bochnia (is that in Galicia?).
This neatly connects the names of Gauls and Galicia, although note that the name isn't Celtic, but Greco-Roman in origin. It's conceivable that the jackdaw was chosen as a symbol because its local name resembled an original place name with a different etymology.
Anyone know if there's any other support for Kurlansky's version? — Michael Z. 2005-05-27 19:16 Z
Galicia means very different things to different people. The Spanish region aside, Galicia is still an ambiguous name even if we know we're talking about central Europe:
I just come back from a holiday there "Krakow" and I could have gone to the salt mine which was near by, but didnt have time, but I did walk up to Krakow mound which reminded me of a Celtic fort, the likes I have seen in England and Wales, also there is a Krakow Dragon myth just like the Celtic mytology of Britain, ie the welsh Dragon. oh also I read just recently they discoverd a Celtic village just 4 km from krakow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.237.142.20 ( talk) 13:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I support Michael's suggestion. The current article for Galicia-1 and Galicia-2 is already Galicia (Central Europe). It's lead should be modified to say that it's not only "the largest and northernmost province of Austria from 1772 until 1918" but a historic territory that changed hands in history as that article says further down anyway. -- Irpen 21:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with splitting this article but I agree with expanding of other existing articles or even creating the new ones as per below. Let's be consistent first of all. Galicia is a historical territory whose borders were moving but it is still more or less defined. This article is supposed to be about the territory. For Galicia-1 above in the narrow sense, one could expand the "Województwo Ruskie" or other voivodships articles. I won't object even to acreation of a new article about the history of the territory under the PLC period if it cannot be logically described in voivodship articles. For Galicia-2, an article called Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria would be in order. But the "Galicia" article could just follow briefly on the history of the region and refer on the way to the Galician-Volhynian Principality (a proposed namechange for current Halych-Vohlynia), the voivodship(s) and the kingdom articles as {{main}} for appropriate period.
Of course much should be done, but a quick and immediate accomodation to address my suggestion would simply be a rewrite of the lead to state clearly, that G. is a historic territory rather than this or that administrative unit of this or that state. AND we will theh have separate article for the statehood units. How does this sound? -- Irpen 00:44, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I should probably be wary about wading into Eastern European ethnic complexities, but is there any reason that the awkward slash contstruction "Ukranian/Ruthenian" is used so much in this article? Can't we just use one term throughout, with a note on the first use that "the language/ethnicity that we would today call 'Ukranian' was through the 17 and 1800s generally referred to as 'Ruthenian'?" -- Jfruh 22:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jfruh:
Your suggestion has some merit, and, indeed, some historians writing in Ukrainian do use the term "Ukrainian" throughout with such an initial explanation. After all, the vast majority of Galician Ruthenians who were Greek Catholics did turn into nationally conscious Ukrainians by 1914, certainly by the establishment of the Second Polish Republic in the early 20s. The problem arises, however, that some of the Muscophiles actually came to consider themselves to be Russians and rejected a modern Ukrainian national identity. By 1914, they were a very small minority but they did, in fact, exist. I think that it would be awkward to refer to them as Muscophile 'Ukrainians', since they so abhorred this name. A similar problem in nomenclature exists among Transcarpathian Ruthenians who emigrated in large numbers to the Unites States during the Great Economic Emigration. Their descendants, or, at least some of them, to this day reject the Ukrainian name and form a community separate from the Ukrainian Americans. So the problem is a complex one with no easy way out. I remain open with regard to resolving it. Regards, Author
Would there be merit to using Rusin (Rusyn?) instead of the Latinized "Ruthenian"? logologist 04:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jfruh: I have ammended the article along the lines which you suggested. You might also be interested in knowing that a similar situation existed among the Polish peasantry which lacked a national consciousness at this time as well. The Polish aristocracy and gentry generally called themselves "Poles" while the peasantry were often referred to as "Mazurs", and, we know that in 1846 they turned sharply against their masters and rejected the Polish patriotism of the insurgents. But they too with the advent of democratic and egalitarian ideas were eventually integrated into the Polish political nation, just as the Ruthenian peasantry became integrated into the Ukrainian political nation. I am given to understand that even in today's Poland there are some "Goraly" or mountainfolk who reject the Polish name just as certain modern Ruthenians, if I may be permitted to use the term (see Rusyns), do the same for the Ukrainian name and identity.
By the way, I deleted the title by A.J.P.Taylor from the bibliography and replaced it with more pertinent titles because it does not deal specifically with Galicia, and, moreover, is filled with glib and misleading generalizations. Taylor certainly did not know much about Galicia and had little respect for its inhabitants. Regards, Author.
To whoever keeps inserting the term "Russophiles" into the final paragraph of the Galician Autonomy section: My original wording of "other Ruthenian groups" as contenders for political power with the Poles is, in my opinion, at present the only fair wording here, as the Russophiles were never a real contender for power in Galicia and remained a very small group right until the beginning of the Russian occupation in 1914. At that time, with the support of the Russian occupation authorities they for the first time, I believe, became important. The phrase "Other Ruthenian groups" is , I know, more vague, but I think, more accurate. One problem here is that a definitive general political history of these events still remains to be written, even in Ukrainian, so we have to tread very cautiously here. I suggest that you put your ideas about Russophiles down here on the 'Talk' page for now so that we can work something reasonable out. Regards, Author
Why is there a revert war over "Russophiles"/"other Ukrainian groups"? Anonymous, are you implying that other groups are included, or do you have a problem with the label Russophiles? Русофіли is an accepted name in general histories of the period. Please explain a change before reverting more than once, or you just waste all of our time. — Michael Z. 2006-01-3 17:32 Z
Here's what I removed from Galicia and Ludomaria, which I made into a redirect.
It does not seem very useful. I don't see how it agrees with what is written it this article. Piet 10:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
"[[Frank E. Sysy]]n": is something going on here with a declined form of a name in some language I'm unfamiliar with? Or is this a badly formed link? (and is this person worth a link at all?) - Jmabel | Talk 18:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The expression "historical region currently split between Poland and Ukraine." is highly confusing, as the Austrian Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria included a large portion of Lesser Poland, that never formed a part of the duchy of Galicia and Lodomeria. The sentence should be altered to become more correct. Corelli
[3]? Perhaps I'm not following the terminology correctly, but this seems like it adds a redundancy and/or jumps around in chronological order. Before this edit, we already had "[Galicia] was created from the territories taken from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the partitions of Poland and lasted until the dissolution of Austria-Hungary at the end of World War I." Lysy added (somewhat before that) "For several centuries the territory belonged to the Crown of the Polish Kingdom." Is there a relevant distinction between the Crown of the Polish Kingdom and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? And, if so, is there a reason not to put the two statements adjacent to one another? - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Normally, when I come through these articles, I see a few small problems like this and I can get enough from context to clean them up. But, in this case, the problems with these two new paragraphs are so large that I don't trust my guesses, because with so many problems I could be misunderstanding entirely; in the case of the first sentence of the first paragraph here, I don't even have a guess.
First problematic paragraph:
The fall of Poland and its eventual dissolution were not only a consequence of the internal disorder; it offered also a welcome way for the rising European great powers Prussia, Austria and Russia. With support of Prussia and Russia Stanislaus Poniatowski was selected to the king in 1764, with whom these countries wanted to secure themselves influence on Poland.
I can't even parse most of this. Depending how I try to read the first sentence:
If no one can paraphrase this coherently, we should simply delete this sentence.
As for the second sentence, the only way I can make sense of it is to assume that "whom" refers back to Stanislaus Poniatowski, but the grammar of the sentence pretty much rules out that possibility. If I have understood this sentence correctly, one correct way to say this would be:
With support of Prussia and Russia, Stanislaus Poniatowski was selected king in 1764; through him, these countries wanted to secure influence on Poland for themselves.
Second problematic paragraph:
From June 1782 by January 1786 so 14,735 colonists came into the country. They either settled in either existing villages or founded their own. In East Galicia, where under the still more backward agriculture of the Ruthenians an improvement appeared still more desirable by the settlement of immigrants from the German countries, no national country was available. The Austrian administration therefore successfully tried to energize the Polish large land owners to settle also on its goods German colonists under similar conditions (Private colonisation so mentioned).
- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
As I wrote above, "the problems with these two new paragraphs are so large that I don't trust my guesses, because with so many problems I could be misunderstanding entirely." I came here because I was hoping to point up the problems so that someone more knowledgable on the topic might be able to sort this out. How is the {{ sofixit}} you addressed to me supposed to help? I have just done what I could to help. If you like, I will simply delete the paragraphs: that is the only way I can "fix" this. I was trying to be more cooperative than that: why does that earn me a rebuke? - Jmabel | Talk 01:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Second World War and Distrikt Galizien is also really ugly, but I'm not qualified to prettify it as I know nothing about the history... Gilded Lily 03:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Roman Shukhevych, leader of UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), was removed without comment from the list of names. I have no idea what this is about. Perhaps someone else does. - Jmabel | Talk 19:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following from the section Galicia and Lodomeria in different languages:
Please note that both hallstadt and la tene celtic cultures were prevelent in this region before roman or later tribes hence the celtic/GALLIC name simple really!
It's almost incoherent, it was obviously at best misplaced. If there is something meaningful (and citable) here, please feel free to restore more appropriately. - Jmabel | Talk 08:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I see no reason to divide the personalities into national sections. This is problematic at least for some personalities of both Polish and Jewish afiliation and, for example, Polish minister appears under Jewish heading. There are some other cases too. I think that usually in list of this type (personalities from a multinational city or region) we give names and professions, sometimes nationalities too (see e.g. Wroclaw, Strassburg..), all in one section ordered alphabetically. So I rework it here as well. -- Beaumont (@) 17:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
...done. By the way, I expanded the list and it seems that it is still incomplete. When it grows it could be convenient to move it to a separate article, just as it was done for Strassburg, for exapmle. -- Beaumont (@) 23:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the list to a separate article, hope nobody minds. Quantpole 10:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
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Is there a special name for this process in Polish and Ukrainian historiography?
Are there any special reasons for this migration?
Similar one happened in Croatia, at that time, particularly in Dalmatia, because of peronospora and Wine Charter later, two things that destroyed local prosperous export good, wine.
Kubura (
talk)
10:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is filled with factual mistakes and clearly exhibits the Nazi nostalgia that still plagues this part of the world. 92.16.226.13 ( talk) 22:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed this info on the events of 1846 from the page since it is somewhat of a tangent: Interesting things is, that there was a plan, made by Hotel Lambert agents, that also considered the possible uprising in Slovakia and Croatia. Conspiracy was discovered thanks to treachery of agent Antoni Rieth, the very author of the plan of the uprising. Austrian authorities have finally discovered whole net of these agents acting on Balkans. Important role had the Croatian journal Branislav, finally banned in 1845. [1] Mike Stoyik ( talk) 03:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm puzzled with this map, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galiz18.gif , presented in the article. Do we have any evidence that "West Galicia" existed back in 18th century ? I thought it was a more recent invention. -- Lysy talk 16:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Many thanks. I wonder if this/such explanation could make it somehow to the article ? -- Lysy talk 20:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I must confess that I have learnt about the Galicia from this article. Being a student of history, I got interested in it. I read bit of it and simultaneously checked it on Google Earth. Simple query 'Galicia' on the Google Map Search, took me to a place in Spain. After that I tried to locate it in Poland and Ukraine. However, I am still struggling with the exact geographical region to which the area belongs.
My humble submission is that those who have direct knowledge and it is discernible from the contents of the Discussion on this page, that there are people who have direct knowledge of the place, must bring out a better map of the area. Mere a suggestion!!!--Sumir 12:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumir Sharma ( talk • contribs)
Just Galitzia, to avoid homonimy with Galicia in Spain, a.k.a. Galiza in Galician ( the Galician and the Portuguese are basically the same language). The Spanish Galicia/Galiza is named after Gallaecia, that in turn seems to be named after the Gauls (like Gaul and Galatia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 ( talk) 10:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Ronhjones (Talk) 18:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Galicia (eastern Europe) →
Galicia (Eastern Europe) — The article has been moved back and forth a number of times, the main question being how to describe the location of Galicia:
Eastern Europe,
Central Europe or
East-Central Europe. All of these terms (according to respective articles) are quite oblique, mean different regions in different sources and may be considered derogatory. While I try to be neutral on socio-political issues and would accede to anything in paranthesis, the present title with lowercase e is certainly improper. —
94.29.52.50 (
talk)
17:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
For convenience, here is the sequence of titles:
Also note that the respetive category is Category:Galicia (Central Europe), with several subcats, and on commons:Category:Galicia (Central Europe). Unless the present article is restored to original title, these cats should be renamed. 94.29.52.50 ( talk) 17:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Now that the article suggests Galicia lies in Eastern Europe I'm tempted to add more info on that in the header. The problem is that Galicia has always been part of Central Europe, both geographically, culturally and architecturally. The article on Austria-Hungary places it in Central Europe - and rightfully so. And Galicia is Austro-Hungarian creation in all possible aspects.
Go to Krakow or Lvov and you'll see buildings reminiscent of Vienna and Munich and not Moscow, Austro-Hungarian cuisine (and not Eastern Slavic), you'll encounter people using gallicisms in their daily speech (in this context meaning mostly borrowings from other languages of former Austria-Hungary like German, Hungarian and even Italian), and so on. Not to mention the fact that the Geographical centre of Europe is either north, south or even east of Galicia, but not to the west (note that one of the pretending towns is actually in Galicia).
Having said that, I believe East-Central Europe could be acceptable if Central Europe hurts someone (?), but Eastern? Come on, this version doesn't hold much water (and judging by the books available from Google Books English-speaking scholars think likewise). Alternatively we could modify the articles on Austria, Hungary, Poland and Germany to call them Eastern European countries. Of course this would be counter-factual, but that at least would be consistent. // Halibu tt 23:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
One thing that we can be sure of is that it's definitely not in Western Europe. So how about Galicia (not Western Europe). Or, even better, Galicia (not the one in Spain)? — Kpalion (talk) 16:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Please verify with Yiddish Typewriter. Regards · לערי ריינהארט· T· m: Th· T· email me· 20:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the only proper way the article should be named. The division between Central, or rather Western and Eastern Europe was tradicionally and historically based on the Latin (Roman Catholic Church, baptized by Vatican) vs Greek (East Orthodox Church, baptized by Byznatium) speheres of influence. Likewise, this obviously implicates the differences in culture, language spoken during religious rituals (latin/greek). Finally, the distinction can be made also upon the terms of West Slavic (tradicionally roman-catholic) and East Slavic (east-orthodox) nations, where West Slavs inhabited Galicia and East Slavs inhabitet East Galicia. That's why Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia are always considered as being part of the so called West (not maybe strictly geopgraphically, but culturally) and Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia of the European East.-- 83.12.91.242 ( talk) 13:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Languages on Wikipedia that add geographical region to that term, us it in Central or middle Europe context. -- Rejedef ( talk) 17:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think I got to to object to inclusion of this text [5], at least as it is being presented. The source is pretty clear that this is the point of view of German (in the wide sense)-nationalists at best, and propaganda at worst. It does not portray this information as factual but rather as a reflection of how Austrians justified their administration of conquered territory.
More generally, come on, it's usually the case that a power that conquers another land will justify its occupation by describing the natives as "barbarians" who need to be "civilized". It's how the British justified their empire, how the Americans justified their treatment of Native Americans, how Southern whites justified slavery, and hell, it's probably even how Poles justified their treatment of Ukrainians.
So the passage needs to be rewritten or removed. VolunteerMarek 20:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)