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Text removed: Possibly another name for the Saxon goddess Freya, but I'm not in a position to confirm this. Frige, Freya and Freo are all given as the origin of the word Friday in this encyclopedia, so be careful what you trust!
Just a fly-by to ask about clarifying the difference intended between "real love" and "erotic love" in the article. I won't be participating in any debate, but just thought it worth while bringing the topic up. As an old married woman, it seems very unclear to me!
Thanks K 89.248.128.66 21:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a side note, Frigg = "real love" and Freya = "erotic love" is just lame. Frigg is connected with "real love"? Where? Which mythological writing suggests that? As I know, Frigg had sexual relationships with her husband's brothers. Real love? Frigg had sex with a slave to steal her husband's gold. Real love? Freya on the other hand is famous for her golden tears for her husband. Erotic love? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.19.44.15 ( talk) 16:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A very difficult case, because of the etymological uncertainties regarding Verschärfung. At present it appears to me that there was a single goddess, Frijjo, who came to be conflated with a female hyopstasis of Freyr to become a Freyja separate from Frigg in Norse mythology specifically. These are ultimately epithets, one is "Lady", in principle applicable to any goddess, and one is "Love" (as it were personified). The problem is that the two words share the same etymology in Germanic. -- dab (𒁳) 12:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Note that Stephan Grundy surveys arguments against the notion of Freyja and Frigg originating from a common goddess in Grundy, Stephan (1998). "Freyja and Frigg" in Billington, Sandra. Green, Miranda (1998). The Concept of the Goddess. Routledge. ISBN 0415197899.
In fact, Grundy (1998:57) states:
- The problem of whether Frigg or Freyja may have been a single goddess originally is a difficult one, made more so by the scantiness of pre-Viking Age references to Germanic goddesses, and the diverse quality of the sources. The best that can be done is to survey the arguments for and against their identity, and to see how well each can be supported.
This article does not reflect these arguments but outright takes it for granted that the two goddesses originate from the same figure. There's a lot of theory here presented as fact. This isn't neutral. A better name for this article would probably be something like " Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis", which would trot out the arguments about whether or not the two deities stem from a single figure. :bloodofox: ( talk) 06:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry - didn't mean to "revert your reversion" like that - you jumped in so quick I thought I had inadvently not registered my edit.
I HAVE read the talk page - and the article, which was extensively modified to make it more neutral during the dispute, which has been "dead" now for over two years.
Plese don't reinsert the tags unless you have issues with the article as it exists (as opposed to the 2009 version), and are prepared to argue the case for further changes. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The hypothetical words seemed to be indicated with an asterisk preceding them, which I am assuming is a standard practice in linguistics. However it was very noisy in the article and made it difficult to read, so in restructuring the article I removed them and tried to make sure each statement was properly phrased as hypothetical - they had been stated as fact with only the asterisk to indicate conjectural nature. Is this the right way to handle it or have I misunderstood/corrupted something? Fixentries ( talk) 17:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Looking at other articles I think these asterisks need to be left in. I will replace them. I wonder if there is a template that explains this to the reader. If not I'll try to make one. Fixentries ( talk) 19:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok I didn't see any template or other treatment about the asterisks meaning unattested words, so I'll assume for now that this is generally obvious to people reading linguistics articles (although it seems like it may not be). Here are is a diff [1] of all the changes I have made so far. I apologize for the number of edits, I kept realizing problems, things I had misunderstood, etc. This was a confusing article to work with because it was phrased as if it was all a known fact. Please make sure I didn't make any mistakes as this reflects a lot of significant changes. Fixentries ( talk) 20:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC) And now [2] for a total addition of 3133 characters. Fixentries ( talk) 20:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC) Currently at [3], sorry for number of edits. Fixentries ( talk) 22:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
If you had bothered to read the article, you would realize that it is not about a common origin of ON Frigg and ON Freyja, but about the undisputed fact that ON Frigg and German Freja / English Frija have the same origin. Moving back. If you want to discuss "common origin hypotheses" of Frijō (Frigg) and Frawjō (Freyja), be my guest, but leave this article alone. -- dab (𒁳) 08:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- The two Old Norse goddesses Freyja and Frigg appear to be reflected by only a single goddess in West Germanic and likely derive from a single Common Germanic goddess, one of whose epithets was *frijjō "beloved" and *frawjō "lady". Frejya "Lady" is thus considered a hypostasis of the chief "Frigg-Frija" goddess, together with other hypostases like Fulla and Nanna derived from skaldic epithets, similar to [[Odhvalent to the Latin dies veneris which is named for the goddess Venus.
What "study from a modern scholar"? Lindow (2001), p. 129? Thanks for that reference, I have just looked at it, and it says exactly what I am saying. Lindow adds that the common identification of Freyja and Frigg "cannot be proven", but he does not cite any scholar disputing the assumption. The unilateral move of this article from a discussion of a West Germanic goddess to a comparison of two Norse goddesses was very close to vandalism. Where "very close" is put here for politneness. The purpose of this article is not the discussion of Norse mythology. Norse mythology is relevant here only to the extent it can illuminate the history and character of a barely-attested West Germanic goddess. -- dab (𒁳) 18:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
well, I have no interest in clowning around with you. You are the one wikistalking me and pulling down my stuff on a whim. Even your Grundy reference clearly takes the Frigg-Freyja identity as the default position, adding caveats to the effect that the question is "difficult". So it is. If you like propose a rephrasing that makes the point that the question is difficult, but stop vandalizing the entire article over this marginal issue. -- dab (𒁳) 10:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- "The two Old Norse goddesses Freyja and Frigg appear to be reflected by only a single goddess in West Germanic and, often taken to derive from a single Common Germanic goddess, one of whose epithets was *frijjō "beloved" and *frawjō "lady". Freyja "Lady" is thus considered a hypostasis of the chief "Frigg-Frija" goddess, together with other hypostases like Fulla and Nanna derived from skaldic epithets, similar to Odhr besides many other aspects in skaldic tradition deriving from Odin."
perhaps if you would pause in attacking me out of pure spite or principle, you would see that I am perfectly willing to incorporate valid points, in best wikipedia fashion. What I will not stand for are your angry blanket reverts. It sometimes take a while to transpire what exactly you are ranting against, as you seem to be guided by some kind of pre-conceived ideology while I am as always just trying to present mainstream opinion. You would certainly be in a position to improve the article if you for once decided not to opt for hard-ball revert warring instead. You need to understand that Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, even for editors who cannot stand one another like we do. You have never seen me blanket-reverting your contributions, unless your "contribution" was a blanket-revert to begin with.
In this case, you are more than welcome to add material to the effect that Stephan Grundy (1998) presents a challenge to the mainstream view. Instead of doing this, improving the article, your approach is to tear down the entire account of the mainstream view as "biased" on grounds that somebody challenged it.
Now with limitless patience and wikiquette, I invite you once again to contribute rather than blank, and to collaborate rather than OWN. -- dab (𒁳) 13:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi just want to bring this [4] up. Most the original linguistics discussion in this article used AS or Anglo-Saxon, as I remember. Just want to ask which is most commonly used in linguistics. I guess English is closer to the self-description and "Anglo-Saxon" comes from other languages. We can't very well use ænglisc in the article, maybe English is better than Anglo-Saxon though. Whatever is used I think all the related articles should be made to agree in case anyone is confused about them referring to the same language. Fixentries ( talk) 00:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Any connection with the Albanian goddess of love, Prende? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prende
Note that she was associated with Friday, although this may have simply been how she was identified at the time, and may not reflect a deep connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.133.202 ( talk) 12:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
This is a much better title and the edits to the text are very much in the right direction. I would like to look at how many scholars feel strongly in favor of a connection, strongly against it, or find it an obscure or intractable question. We also want to avoid SYNTH/OR without being to aggressive about removing material. A total rewrite may be in order but continuing to refine this article could work as well.
I think we need to include one of the existing maps showing Frigg vs.Freyja worship which are quite interesting. I am willing to dedicate some time to this article but in a more incremental manner rather than complete rewrite - although after we look at he sources and discuss what changes need to be made I would be willing to do an encyclopedia grade rewrite with maps, tables etc. because I think this is an example of an important but orphaned articlle. It has been languishing long enough. Obotlig ( talk) 08:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Frigg is in pretty bad shape and I had noticed the better paragraphs in Freyja. Here is what I am envisioning for content for this article:
So if that sounds good I may blank my sandbox article and start filling it in along those lines and anyone is welcome to contribute there. Obotlig ( talk) 05:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I went ahead and did a major cleanup barring time for a more thorough rewrite. This is consistent with the version in my sandbox User:Obotlig/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis. I would like some better sources or more careful inspection of the material but the article was so dirty and had been left that way for so long I felt the need to just attack it with the old battle-axe for now. Hope everyone agrees with the changes. I also removed the POV tag but left the cleanup tag. POV issues seem resolved by removal of the stranger etymological material but cleanup or rewrite still in question. Hope this works for now. The references still need more work and migration to cite templates but at least they are in consistent format and most of the mess seems tidied up. Addition of map seems relevant - it looks nice anyway. Would like to add place names if we can get the citations on those. Obotlig ( talk) 06:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
For crying out loud, this article was supposed to be about the goddess Frijjō, NOT about Freyja. It is difficult enough to deal with both historical and contemporary confusion without making the article explicitly about such confusion. You want to discuss the origins of Freyja, feel free to edit Freyja#Etymology.
It isn't very good manners to rewrite an article so that it is about something completely different, and then rename it so that the title fits the rewritten content. You may as well leave the original article alone and write your own article under your own title. Frankly, I find the question of Freyja as a possible hypostasis of Frigg-Frijjo a question of limited interest. You want to discuss it, either in a section or in a standalone article, that's certainly fine. But pray do not force this marginal discussion on this article by forced renames and rewrites. It is perfectly undisputed that there was a continental goddess Frijjo corresponding to the Viking Age Frigg. This is the article about this goddess. If you have material pertinent to Freyja, you are kindly invited to consider the Freyja article, or possibly the Fraujaz article if the material is etymological. -- dab (𒁳) 15:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Obotlig, you should know that bloodofox has a history of stalking me and generally making life as difficult for me as possible whenever there is any point of content he dislikes. The "rubbish" revision of the article you have seen was the result of these efforts. I am perfectly capable of writing decent articles as long as I am not subjected to malevolent attacks while doing it. If you want to write a "Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis" article, be my guest. The point is that nobody ever wanted to write such an article, it was just the outcome of the reductio ad absurdum of the "Frijjo" article on the part of bloodofox.
So, I appreciate that you are talking down to me as if I was a novice contributor writing in broken English, because this is the impression bloodofox has apparently successfully created to the casual observer.
What I actually planned to do was writing an article about the West Germanic goddess Frija. I have no idea why anyone would hate this goddess so much as to resort to disruption techniques in order to make the compilation of her article impossible. The point is that there was such a goddess, but that such evidence as we have is very limited. Any discussion of this evidence will be highly technical, and will need to go into the historical conflation of the unrelated names Frija and Freyja. No, this is not a "footnote to Frigg", it is a serious philological topic dedicated to the reconstruction of pre-Christian continental traditions.
The title "Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis" fails WP:NAME in basically every respect. I'll leave you to do something constructive under this heading if you want, but I must request that I am left in peace to compile an encylcopedic discussion on the topic of the West Germanic goddess, and I must also request that the disruptive methods of user bloodofox are a matter for administrative intervention, as they are clearly past any kind of bona fide discussion among well-meaning editors. -- dab (𒁳) 12:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
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Text removed: Possibly another name for the Saxon goddess Freya, but I'm not in a position to confirm this. Frige, Freya and Freo are all given as the origin of the word Friday in this encyclopedia, so be careful what you trust!
Just a fly-by to ask about clarifying the difference intended between "real love" and "erotic love" in the article. I won't be participating in any debate, but just thought it worth while bringing the topic up. As an old married woman, it seems very unclear to me!
Thanks K 89.248.128.66 21:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a side note, Frigg = "real love" and Freya = "erotic love" is just lame. Frigg is connected with "real love"? Where? Which mythological writing suggests that? As I know, Frigg had sexual relationships with her husband's brothers. Real love? Frigg had sex with a slave to steal her husband's gold. Real love? Freya on the other hand is famous for her golden tears for her husband. Erotic love? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.19.44.15 ( talk) 16:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A very difficult case, because of the etymological uncertainties regarding Verschärfung. At present it appears to me that there was a single goddess, Frijjo, who came to be conflated with a female hyopstasis of Freyr to become a Freyja separate from Frigg in Norse mythology specifically. These are ultimately epithets, one is "Lady", in principle applicable to any goddess, and one is "Love" (as it were personified). The problem is that the two words share the same etymology in Germanic. -- dab (𒁳) 12:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Note that Stephan Grundy surveys arguments against the notion of Freyja and Frigg originating from a common goddess in Grundy, Stephan (1998). "Freyja and Frigg" in Billington, Sandra. Green, Miranda (1998). The Concept of the Goddess. Routledge. ISBN 0415197899.
In fact, Grundy (1998:57) states:
- The problem of whether Frigg or Freyja may have been a single goddess originally is a difficult one, made more so by the scantiness of pre-Viking Age references to Germanic goddesses, and the diverse quality of the sources. The best that can be done is to survey the arguments for and against their identity, and to see how well each can be supported.
This article does not reflect these arguments but outright takes it for granted that the two goddesses originate from the same figure. There's a lot of theory here presented as fact. This isn't neutral. A better name for this article would probably be something like " Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis", which would trot out the arguments about whether or not the two deities stem from a single figure. :bloodofox: ( talk) 06:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry - didn't mean to "revert your reversion" like that - you jumped in so quick I thought I had inadvently not registered my edit.
I HAVE read the talk page - and the article, which was extensively modified to make it more neutral during the dispute, which has been "dead" now for over two years.
Plese don't reinsert the tags unless you have issues with the article as it exists (as opposed to the 2009 version), and are prepared to argue the case for further changes. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The hypothetical words seemed to be indicated with an asterisk preceding them, which I am assuming is a standard practice in linguistics. However it was very noisy in the article and made it difficult to read, so in restructuring the article I removed them and tried to make sure each statement was properly phrased as hypothetical - they had been stated as fact with only the asterisk to indicate conjectural nature. Is this the right way to handle it or have I misunderstood/corrupted something? Fixentries ( talk) 17:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Looking at other articles I think these asterisks need to be left in. I will replace them. I wonder if there is a template that explains this to the reader. If not I'll try to make one. Fixentries ( talk) 19:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok I didn't see any template or other treatment about the asterisks meaning unattested words, so I'll assume for now that this is generally obvious to people reading linguistics articles (although it seems like it may not be). Here are is a diff [1] of all the changes I have made so far. I apologize for the number of edits, I kept realizing problems, things I had misunderstood, etc. This was a confusing article to work with because it was phrased as if it was all a known fact. Please make sure I didn't make any mistakes as this reflects a lot of significant changes. Fixentries ( talk) 20:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC) And now [2] for a total addition of 3133 characters. Fixentries ( talk) 20:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC) Currently at [3], sorry for number of edits. Fixentries ( talk) 22:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
If you had bothered to read the article, you would realize that it is not about a common origin of ON Frigg and ON Freyja, but about the undisputed fact that ON Frigg and German Freja / English Frija have the same origin. Moving back. If you want to discuss "common origin hypotheses" of Frijō (Frigg) and Frawjō (Freyja), be my guest, but leave this article alone. -- dab (𒁳) 08:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
- The two Old Norse goddesses Freyja and Frigg appear to be reflected by only a single goddess in West Germanic and likely derive from a single Common Germanic goddess, one of whose epithets was *frijjō "beloved" and *frawjō "lady". Frejya "Lady" is thus considered a hypostasis of the chief "Frigg-Frija" goddess, together with other hypostases like Fulla and Nanna derived from skaldic epithets, similar to [[Odhvalent to the Latin dies veneris which is named for the goddess Venus.
What "study from a modern scholar"? Lindow (2001), p. 129? Thanks for that reference, I have just looked at it, and it says exactly what I am saying. Lindow adds that the common identification of Freyja and Frigg "cannot be proven", but he does not cite any scholar disputing the assumption. The unilateral move of this article from a discussion of a West Germanic goddess to a comparison of two Norse goddesses was very close to vandalism. Where "very close" is put here for politneness. The purpose of this article is not the discussion of Norse mythology. Norse mythology is relevant here only to the extent it can illuminate the history and character of a barely-attested West Germanic goddess. -- dab (𒁳) 18:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
well, I have no interest in clowning around with you. You are the one wikistalking me and pulling down my stuff on a whim. Even your Grundy reference clearly takes the Frigg-Freyja identity as the default position, adding caveats to the effect that the question is "difficult". So it is. If you like propose a rephrasing that makes the point that the question is difficult, but stop vandalizing the entire article over this marginal issue. -- dab (𒁳) 10:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- "The two Old Norse goddesses Freyja and Frigg appear to be reflected by only a single goddess in West Germanic and, often taken to derive from a single Common Germanic goddess, one of whose epithets was *frijjō "beloved" and *frawjō "lady". Freyja "Lady" is thus considered a hypostasis of the chief "Frigg-Frija" goddess, together with other hypostases like Fulla and Nanna derived from skaldic epithets, similar to Odhr besides many other aspects in skaldic tradition deriving from Odin."
perhaps if you would pause in attacking me out of pure spite or principle, you would see that I am perfectly willing to incorporate valid points, in best wikipedia fashion. What I will not stand for are your angry blanket reverts. It sometimes take a while to transpire what exactly you are ranting against, as you seem to be guided by some kind of pre-conceived ideology while I am as always just trying to present mainstream opinion. You would certainly be in a position to improve the article if you for once decided not to opt for hard-ball revert warring instead. You need to understand that Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, even for editors who cannot stand one another like we do. You have never seen me blanket-reverting your contributions, unless your "contribution" was a blanket-revert to begin with.
In this case, you are more than welcome to add material to the effect that Stephan Grundy (1998) presents a challenge to the mainstream view. Instead of doing this, improving the article, your approach is to tear down the entire account of the mainstream view as "biased" on grounds that somebody challenged it.
Now with limitless patience and wikiquette, I invite you once again to contribute rather than blank, and to collaborate rather than OWN. -- dab (𒁳) 13:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi just want to bring this [4] up. Most the original linguistics discussion in this article used AS or Anglo-Saxon, as I remember. Just want to ask which is most commonly used in linguistics. I guess English is closer to the self-description and "Anglo-Saxon" comes from other languages. We can't very well use ænglisc in the article, maybe English is better than Anglo-Saxon though. Whatever is used I think all the related articles should be made to agree in case anyone is confused about them referring to the same language. Fixentries ( talk) 00:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Any connection with the Albanian goddess of love, Prende? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prende
Note that she was associated with Friday, although this may have simply been how she was identified at the time, and may not reflect a deep connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.133.202 ( talk) 12:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
This is a much better title and the edits to the text are very much in the right direction. I would like to look at how many scholars feel strongly in favor of a connection, strongly against it, or find it an obscure or intractable question. We also want to avoid SYNTH/OR without being to aggressive about removing material. A total rewrite may be in order but continuing to refine this article could work as well.
I think we need to include one of the existing maps showing Frigg vs.Freyja worship which are quite interesting. I am willing to dedicate some time to this article but in a more incremental manner rather than complete rewrite - although after we look at he sources and discuss what changes need to be made I would be willing to do an encyclopedia grade rewrite with maps, tables etc. because I think this is an example of an important but orphaned articlle. It has been languishing long enough. Obotlig ( talk) 08:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Frigg is in pretty bad shape and I had noticed the better paragraphs in Freyja. Here is what I am envisioning for content for this article:
So if that sounds good I may blank my sandbox article and start filling it in along those lines and anyone is welcome to contribute there. Obotlig ( talk) 05:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I went ahead and did a major cleanup barring time for a more thorough rewrite. This is consistent with the version in my sandbox User:Obotlig/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis. I would like some better sources or more careful inspection of the material but the article was so dirty and had been left that way for so long I felt the need to just attack it with the old battle-axe for now. Hope everyone agrees with the changes. I also removed the POV tag but left the cleanup tag. POV issues seem resolved by removal of the stranger etymological material but cleanup or rewrite still in question. Hope this works for now. The references still need more work and migration to cite templates but at least they are in consistent format and most of the mess seems tidied up. Addition of map seems relevant - it looks nice anyway. Would like to add place names if we can get the citations on those. Obotlig ( talk) 06:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
For crying out loud, this article was supposed to be about the goddess Frijjō, NOT about Freyja. It is difficult enough to deal with both historical and contemporary confusion without making the article explicitly about such confusion. You want to discuss the origins of Freyja, feel free to edit Freyja#Etymology.
It isn't very good manners to rewrite an article so that it is about something completely different, and then rename it so that the title fits the rewritten content. You may as well leave the original article alone and write your own article under your own title. Frankly, I find the question of Freyja as a possible hypostasis of Frigg-Frijjo a question of limited interest. You want to discuss it, either in a section or in a standalone article, that's certainly fine. But pray do not force this marginal discussion on this article by forced renames and rewrites. It is perfectly undisputed that there was a continental goddess Frijjo corresponding to the Viking Age Frigg. This is the article about this goddess. If you have material pertinent to Freyja, you are kindly invited to consider the Freyja article, or possibly the Fraujaz article if the material is etymological. -- dab (𒁳) 15:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Obotlig, you should know that bloodofox has a history of stalking me and generally making life as difficult for me as possible whenever there is any point of content he dislikes. The "rubbish" revision of the article you have seen was the result of these efforts. I am perfectly capable of writing decent articles as long as I am not subjected to malevolent attacks while doing it. If you want to write a "Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis" article, be my guest. The point is that nobody ever wanted to write such an article, it was just the outcome of the reductio ad absurdum of the "Frijjo" article on the part of bloodofox.
So, I appreciate that you are talking down to me as if I was a novice contributor writing in broken English, because this is the impression bloodofox has apparently successfully created to the casual observer.
What I actually planned to do was writing an article about the West Germanic goddess Frija. I have no idea why anyone would hate this goddess so much as to resort to disruption techniques in order to make the compilation of her article impossible. The point is that there was such a goddess, but that such evidence as we have is very limited. Any discussion of this evidence will be highly technical, and will need to go into the historical conflation of the unrelated names Frija and Freyja. No, this is not a "footnote to Frigg", it is a serious philological topic dedicated to the reconstruction of pre-Christian continental traditions.
The title "Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis" fails WP:NAME in basically every respect. I'll leave you to do something constructive under this heading if you want, but I must request that I am left in peace to compile an encylcopedic discussion on the topic of the West Germanic goddess, and I must also request that the disruptive methods of user bloodofox are a matter for administrative intervention, as they are clearly past any kind of bona fide discussion among well-meaning editors. -- dab (𒁳) 12:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
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