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1. The Issue At Hand: On August 1st, user Pedant17 again attempted to edit the line identifying Nietzsche as a German philosopher. He has argued that the label "German philosopher" is vague, simplistic, and misleading to the point that it should not be used in our lead. As of August 2, 2008 he has not offered any good sources, scholarly or otherwise, which support his point of view.
2. "Nietzsche and the German Tradition": Pedant17 has pointed to the essay collection Nietzsche and the German Tradition to support his point of view. I have the book sitting next to me, and I fail to see what part of the book supports Pedant17's view. In fact, in his essay Nietzsche as German Philosopher, Thomas J. Brobjer writes:
The claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers...BUT WITH REGARD TO THE SECOND GROUP OF LESSER KNOWN GERMAN PHILOSOPHERS THIS CLAIM HAS ESSENTIALLY NO VALIDITY...NIETZSCHE, IN SPITE OF HIS CRITIQUE, WAS A GERMAN PHILOSOPHER, SPOKE AND WROTE IN GERMAN, AND LIVED IN A GERMAN CULTURAL CLIMATE (Page 41).
Unless Pedant17 is willing to demonstrate good faith by suppling us with reliable sources to support his opinion, I feel it is time to seek some sort of formal arbitration to prevent him from making this same edit every few months. Fixer1234 ( talk) 02:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not really familiar with the issue as far as how the arguments balance out in the secondary literature. However, my sense is that this is not a question of either/or. As I tried to clarify in one of my edits, the issue seems to relate to the differing contexts in which one could assert whether he was "German". German citizenship, culture, ethnicity and language are four different things. For example, is someone with Austrian citizenship "German"? An Austrian might exist within the German cultural sphere, very generally speaking, and in the sense of language and perhaps shared cultural elements would be "German". But would a writer from the Austo-Hungarian empire be a German? Would such a writer even be an "Austrian" since the state by this name did not exist as such when he or she lived? Kafka is described here in the English Wikipedia as a "German language" writer, of Jewish descent, from Prague, in an attempt to deal with the mixed claims of ethnicity and language. I think the issue here is that the philosopher himself disavowed being a "German", and he frequently mentions the idea of the "good European" alongside derisive attacks on the newly crafted German nation. From this point of view calling Nietzsche a "German" without qualification seems like irresponsible misrepresentation. The number of citations which suggest that Nietzsche was "German" make no matter if qualifications surrounding the context are not offered. The number of people who generally refer to Nietzsche as a "German" in scholarly literature makes no difference in the face of the fact that he was not a German citizen, derided the German nation, and went to considerable and verifiable pains to distance himself from Germany. In this case the weight of the primary literature seems to me most important. If we are to accept Brobjer's argument we should refer to the Swiss and Austrians (and some Poles) as Germans because they spoke, wrote and lived in a "German cultural climate". Nietzsche verifiably became a good European and spent his later years wandering the continent. He also made strong arguments for the idea that a philosopher's life and actions are as important as his writings. In both his writings and his actions he distanced himself from being "German". Are we then to blithely list him as a "German"? Are we to assume that once a person is safely dead we can disregard the way he chose to identify himself? Again, this is a particularly important question given that Nietzsche's life, writings, philosophy and actions verifiably show that the idea of distancing one's self from "nationalism" was critical to his attitude and ideas. In short, should a summary paragraph focus on how others identified the subject of an encyclopedia article, or on how the subject of the article chose to identify (verifiably) his or her self while alive?
In this context, the actual question at hand is:
Does referring to Nietzsche as a "German" in the opening paragraph because of the frequency with which this designation appears in secondary literature violate NPOV policy by disregarding the following verifiable facts:
1. Nietzche chose to identify himself as a European
2. took the affirmative step of annulling his Prussian citizenship
3. never held citizenship in the German Empire
4. advances a philosophy which explicitly dismisses nationalism in general (and "German" nationalism in particular)
That said, as Pedant17 (apparently?) holds a minority view here, he or she has to do the hard work to advance the position. Furthermore, I do not support Pedant17 coming in and repeatedly changing things in the face of contrary arguments. I should also note that the issue of Nietzsche's feelings about being "German" is already addressed in "Notes on Citizenship" in this article (though this is a very clumsy solution, in my opinion). If I may speculate, it seems that Pedant17's concern is that despite the note, the summary paragraph describes Nietzsche as a "German", perpetuating the casual treatment that this subject receives in literature intended for the general public. While I have some sympathy for this point of view, the way in which he or she is dealing with the disagreement is not acceptable. If Pedant 17 wishes to make this a cause, then he or she should do the work of gathering the citations, presenting his or her argument in a clear way. He or she should also be willing to compromise - after all, as I mentioned, the article already discusses this question at length. The issue which everyone should address is whether existing mention is sufficient, and whether or not the summary paragraph's cursory treatment violates NPOV. --
Picatrix (
talk)
11:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer to Wikipedia, but it seems to me that desire to decisively "settle" academic questions should be guarded against. I'm also not sure how to imagine a community being patient or passing judgment. Both those things are the prerogative of individual editors. If I address a question to "the community" I'm certain it will be individual editors who answer. Anyway "the community" is five or six people in this case, so far as I can tell. I have not reviewed all of Pedant17's edits, but the facts adduced suggest to me that someone feels an edit needs to be made and others disagree. I just reviewed his or her apologia pro, and the arguments seem sound. They warrant a coherent response. For this reason I'm striking some of my comments above. It seems that Pedant17 is quite right about being ignored. Ignoring good supporting arguments - and then complaining about a user who continuously attempts to make the edit that those arguments support - strains the assumption of good faith. I also reviewed the request for comment and it seems groundless to me. From my point of view, passing judgement on an editor with a minority opinion because he or she hasn't graciously accepted "defeat", and because he or she continues to suggest a change is as comical as it is counter-productive. While I'm undecided about whether I should expend my energy on arguing the case for putative German identity one way or the other, I certainly support the idea that we should all seriously consider the idea of changing the designation. In that respect you can count this as my vote of support for discussion of the question. I like coming back to questions, again and again. That's what the "show preview" button is for. I suggest that those who support the idea of Nietzsche being German present their argument for keeping the current version in place. I'd like to see a cogent and thorough argument for why he should be called a German. In the absence of any such affirmative argument I suggest we set about drafting a new version here based on consensus. -- Picatrix ( talk) 05:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
It could be argued that Nietzsche should not be regarded as a German philosopher at all. ... Firstly, at the age of twenty-four he 'resigned' his Prussian citizenship and thereafter remained stateless for the rest of his life. Secondly, the strongest early philosophical influences on himn were not German but greek and American in the form of Plato (and other ancient Greeks) and Emerson. He will soon thereafter become strongly influenced by Schopenhauer, Lange and Kant, but this influence he will later reject, which was not true for the influence of Emerson and the Greeks. Thirdly, he never mentions a number of important German philosophers such as Wolff, Mendelssohn, Thomasius, Jacobi and others, and he apparently has not read anything at all, or only very limited amounts of Leibniz, fichte, Schelling, Herbart and others. Fourthly, Nietzsche himself did not want to be a German philosopher. He was the most anti-German of all German philosophers and suggested 'German' as a new four-letter word suitable for something very superficial and he claimed that it would be easier to translate his books into French than into German. Instead, he referreed to himself as a good European. Fifthly, the Germans themselves do not wish to regard him as German, at least in the general sense which is reflected in the fact that many Germans are ashamed of him and that Berlin not only has one , or several, Kant, Schopenhauer and Fichte streets etc., and also one or two Hartmann, Stirner and Treitschke streets, but no Nietzsche street. ... The claim that Nietzsche was not a German philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers discussed in this paper, but on the other hand, the Zeitgeist of the second half of the nineteenth century was so steeped in metaphysical philosophy and the great German philosophers that, even without a first-hand reading, a German student or intellectual would have been relatively well acquainted with them." (pp 40-42).
Wow. I just went over the heaps of back-and-forth recorded in the archive. I apologize for not having better prepared myself, and thereby having made it necessary for you all to have to repeat yourselves. I still have not had a chance to dig into secondary literature but even if a number of citations are found I think it's unlikely that they would support any sort of 'shoe-horning' of a nationality discussion into the opening paragraph, which should be concise and as clear as possible. In the balance of things some ambiguity can, in my opinion, be tolerated. That said it is clear that Pedant17 is not 'wrong' and that his or her argument has merit. Choosing to streamline the biographical information for purposes of a general introduction does in fact introduce significant ambiguity. Pedant17 also seems to feel strongly enough about the subject to hammer away at it for a few years. Instead of initiating requests for comment and all the rest is there some other approach or way of dealing with this issue that will result in a necessary minimum feeling of satisfaction for all parties? I should ask explicitly: Pedant17, can you suggest a solution to the problem that we all recognize, that does not involve removing "German philosopher" from the intro text? Surely we can all figure out an acceptable compromise. It seems positions have ossified here and that it should be easy to find a way to meet in the middle. Note: I do not mean to suggest that a compromise solution is not already in place in the form of the "Notes on Citizenship". -- Picatrix ( talk) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps that the subject of Nietzsche's feelings on citizenship, nationality, and state, might deserve a separate article. I've found a fair amount of material that would support such an endeavor. If Pedant17 wished to work on such an article I would be happy to help, and it would give the subject the attention it deserves. But Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth. How else are we to explain his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle? If we say he is not a German in the opening paragraph we might do justice to his later, intentionally crafted identity, but we'd replace one ambiguity with another: for part of his life Nietzsche was a citizen of a German nation. However, after looking into all of this, I feel that the most important argument in favor of leaving the ethnic description "German" in the introductory text is the definition of the word. My unabridged Websters shows "German" as: "1. A citizen or native of Germany; a person of German stock". My full OED shows German as "Of or pertaining to Germany or its inhabitants. The precise signification depends on the varying extension given to the name Germany." it notes that the earliest meaning of the word, deriving from the Latin, as "the designation of persons belonging to a group of related peoples inhabiting central and northern Europe, and speaking the dialects from which the 'Germanic' or 'Teutonic' languages have been developed." This suggests that in its earliest - and still its recognized primary sense - the word German does precisely serve its function of generally indicating Nietzsche's native land, ethnicity and language. Arguing that a word should not be included because one of its senses - and the most recent - creates ambiguity (citizen of modern Germany) while three other senses are right on the mark - and older - (native of a German land, German ethnicity, German language speaker) is not sufficient reason to introduce confusion or awkward phrasing such as "a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher) who wrote in German" into the opening paragraph. That said I would be willing to see this opening sentence footnoted, or a separate article discussing the issue of his citizenship and nationality. But changing the German designation in the opening paragraph would be the sort of pedantry I cannot support (rare as that is), which is to say the sort that is too clever by half, and cuts off the nose to spite the face. By getting tangled in such niceties at the outset we'll be much more likely to cause confusion for new readers, and in any case the interests of the persons who would be looking for such details are being addressed by the existing note on citizenship. I've really listened to Pedant17's arguments past and present, I recognize their merit, and I've looked into the secondary literature. But I can't support changing the opening paragraph in this case. It is also not longer possible for Pedant17 to claim that he or she is being ignored. I suggest that we harness his or her enthusiasm and energy, and recognize the merit of his or her arguments by supporting the creation of separate article. This would add further clarity and conciseness in the main article, give the subject a full treatment in an appropriate place, and hopefully transform a nuisance (for some) into a constructive contribution. --
Picatrix (
talk)
13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, and for your interest in this subject. The point in this case is not whether you or I could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions, it is rather whether others have in reliable secondary sources. When I refer to Nietzsche as thinking of himself as a German for part of his life I refer to the broadest ethnic and linguistic meaning. I am in full agreement with you regarding the foolishness inherent in retrospectively projecting our current mythos/ethos of "nationalism" backwards in time and speculating that the same assumptions held sway in the past. I do not suggest that he thought of himself as a German in any sense that would require assuming an outlook of "pan-Germanism" on his part. Your point regarding anachronism as regards his military service is also well taken. Against this view (which I feel is quite reasonable), one might suggest that the most fundamental behavioral indicator of a sense of collective identity is the fact of participation in war waged by that collective. From this point of view the ideological justification for participation in struggle is usually a rationalization of a deeply felt sense of obligation to the herd of which one is a part (which is of course a subject that occupied Nietzsche's attention). The "civic or humanitarian" obligations you mention derive from collective identity. Whether that identity was in the past defined as Prussian national identity, or German cultural and linguistic identity is of little consequence, given that we today habitually designate this collective (however Procrustean it may be) as "German". If you wish to campaign against the ignorance inherent in nationalistic assumptions, or the violence that our ill-considered terminology often does to history I applaud you. But this article is not the place to fire the first salvo. Nietzsche struggled on behalf of the people who spoke his mother language (German) and occupied the territory he was then a citizen of. I do not suggest that this is an argument that trumps yours, merely that it is an alternative point of view that should receive the attention it is due. In any case, we are engaging in defense of positions based on our own research and thoughts. Happily we can set this approach aside (while keeping our wits about us) and present the different attested viewpoints available in the secondary literature, in keeping with editorial guidelines.
My own feeling is that we should not confine ourselves to Nietzsche's own views, as this depends upon our own (potentially original) interpretation. Instead we should gather and display all of the primary material which is attested in Nietzsche's writings in the context provided by secondary literature, thereby assuring that we are not presenting original research. By addressing the various facets of the question dealt with by researchers we aim to ensure some facsimile of neutrality. The distinction between collation and organization, which is appropriate work for a Wikipedia editor, and original research, which is not, is sometimes hard to establish. For this reason editors often push for the most conservative interpretations and demand extensive citation and support from secondary sources. I hope it is clear that I am not arguing against original thought and research by individual scholars - rather I'm arguing against accepting it from Wikipedia editors.
I would like to hear what others here think of creating the new article, and what input (if any) they would like to offer regarding its potential structure. There is no shortage of material which deals with the citizenship and nationality question, and Nietzsche's thoughts about it. As a taste here are a few references I pulled when this subject first came up. There's more...
Lester H. Hunt, Nietzsche and the Origin of Virtue, Routledge 1993, p 37 [In section entitled "The Phenomenology of Citizenship"]: "By now it is obvious enough, I hope, why Nietzsche thought culture and the state are antagonistic and why his sympathies were overwhelmingly on the side of culture. His conception of culture is connected more or less by definition with the notion of development toward the ideal, in the he conceives of culture as that which fosters this sort of development. He has a very definite idea of what sort of awareness must be promoted in order for this mission of culture to be achieved. On the basis of an analysis of the sort of consciousness into which those who live in states are liable to fall - on the basis of might be called his phenomenology of citizenship - he believes that states tend by nature to interfere with the development of this sort of awareness. The state is thus antagonistic toward culture and, for all the same reasons, inferior to it."
Paul Van Tongeren, Reinterpreting Modern Culture, Purdue University Press, 2000, p 23 and p26: "Nietzsche was never very excited about either the political or the military events in the Germany of his day. As a matter of fact, Germany hardly existed. Nietzsche lived in Prussia, one of the states that later united with others to form Germany."
[and]
"Nietzsche accepted the appointment and, without any remorse, renounced his Prussian and German citizenship. From this point on Nietzsche was no longer a citizen of any nation. His lack of citizenship allowed him, later on, to call himself the first European (this could be another reason not consider him a German philosopher)."
Lou Andreas-Salome, Nietzsche, University of Illinois Press, 2001, ix, [regarding the photo of Nietzsche, Salome and Ree]: "The photograph's caption - 'Friedrich Nietzsche, formerly professor and now a wandering fugitive' - was mischievously snipped and transposed from a letter to Ree by Nietzsche in 1879, referring to the severance from his ten-year position at the University of Basel. The self-description 'fugitivus errans' had nothing to do with the idea of madness. It suggested Nietzsche's statelessness; he had to relinquish his German citizenship in 1869, but because of "continuous residence" requirements he never became a Swiss citizen either; instead he was pleased to call himself a 'good European'".
Catherine A. Holland,The Body Politic, Routledge, 2001, p175: "Can we break the spell of citizenship? Can we, as Nietzsche put it, conceive of a 'past from which we may spring rather than that from which we seem to have derived?'"
Let your citations do your work for you. -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Self-hatred and hybris have always co-existed quite comfortably in the self-perception of educated Germans (Hoelderlin !). Nietzsche`s idiosyncratic rantings about being a Polish noble don`t change the fact that he was a German. In rejecting democracy and egalitarianism, Nietzsche was more in line with a specific German tradition of thought than any of the "classical" German philosophers. His thinking was the most extreme, albeit somewhat paradox, expression of the deeply anti-liberal and anti-humanitarian environment and tradition he stems from. The "last unpolitical German" who he claimed himself to be - who is the "last unpolitical German" if not the one who rejects Western concepts of liberty and the whole body of liberal ideas ? Nietzsche rightly considered the concept of the nation state as an essential part of the post-1789 liberal tradition.
Does the fact that Emerson was strongly influenced by German philosophy make him any less of an American thinker ? Nietzsche almost always spoke ill of Americans ("airheads") and of Anglo-Saxons in general ("cows, women and Englishmen"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.230.157 ( talk) 16:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
At 1143 hours on 2008-08-01 an editor suggested in an edit-summary of an edit to the article that an "opening line should directly identify the subject: x is a y". I've encountered this sort of prescription before -- without ever seeing an accepted Wikipedia policy or guideline on the matter. Do we know of such a prescription? -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it's important to include Nietzsche's repudiation of egalitarian ideas (besides Christianity) like Democracy, Socialism, so I changed the introduction a little bit. BTW: It's hard to understand why Nietzsche's radical and antifeministic positions on womans were ignored in this article. They are at least as important as his views on democracy and socialism.-- D.H ( talk) 18:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This section was tagged as WP:OR in February of 2008—but the user left no discussion on the talk page. My opinion? : the content is not WP:OR - but the tone in which it is written makes it sound like it is. As we all know there are many, varied interpretations of Nietzsche's thought and this style of writing comes off as too dogmatic. I want this tag gone. I'm thinking of doing a re-write with a less aggressive tone—thinking this is enough. Is it? ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 19:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've begun the restructuring discussed above and would like to ask Picatrix & D.H if they would sort of follow along behind me and make sure nothing gets lost by falling between the cracks—six eyes being better than two. I'd also like to invite anyone to let me know if they think I've missed something or gone awry in any way. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. We now have works organized in a much better way. Thanks for doing the significant work necessary. We now have Biography as a main section with subheadings. I wonder if "will to power", "morality" and the rest should be organized similarly under philosophy? I suspect you may already be thinking this way, based on what you wrote above about expanding core philosophical themes. This would give us a very simple overall structure for the article. I am not suggesting that these sections get moved to separate pages the way that the works were, rather that they become numbered subheadings like 2.3 or 2.4, instead of 3,4,5, etc. Thoughts? -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and used your idea Picatrix, moving the individual topics under the Philosophy head. This is just a first step to make it easier to look at and think about. I've been reconsidering though whether expanding on these is a good idea. This is a general introduction article and the focus of this section should probably remain just that: introductory. Telescoping them might be a better approach and then move our energy over to Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche and re-editing/expanding the core themes there. As D.H mentioned above, the latter article needs much work also. Take a look at the Søren Kierkegaard article. I think it a good model. There the Thought section is relatively small (with the {{main}} link of course to the full version) in comparison to the biographical detail which is interspersed with looks at how his ideas evolved. Let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 01:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Are there any guidelines for whether someone should be included as influenced by Nietzsche? Mention has been made of whether or not the supposedly influenced person has been mentioned in the article, but Kafka and Gibran are included and are not mentioned in the article. RJC has often brought up the fact that the person in the influenced list should be a "philosopher" (and I'm not really sure just what that means). Gibran might be considered a philosopher, but Kafka and Yeats seem like writers and poets to me. Not that a writer or poet cannot be a philosopher, but I'm not seeing a consistent standard here. I ask because a user is trying to place Kundera in the influenced list. Currently there is no mention of Kundera in the article, Kundera would seem not to be a philosopher in any strict sense, and there is no citation for the claim of Nietzsche's influence in the Kundera article itself. I have removed the Kundera addition because there is no citation. But guidelines need to be established here by consensus or reference to editorial standards. Can anyone offer me guidance as regards this issue? -- Picatrix ( talk) 14:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
My own opinion is that this sounds like a very good approach. If this sort of standard is applied, writers like Camus or Mann definitely belong in the "influenced" list. Probably Mencken as well... But London, Kafka, Gibran, Kesey and Yeats really don't strike me as appropriate. Summarizing the input thus far it seems that for inclusion in the "influenced" list:
1. A 'philosophical' context is preferred, but not required.
2. Citable mention of the influenced individual in the context of Nietzsche studies is required.
3. In keeping with #2, mention of Nietzsche's influence upon the individual in question in the context of studies pertaining to that individual is not in itself sufficient to guarantee mention; these candidates for inclusion will be decided on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus and established Wikipedia guidelines.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems like the consensus then is the following: in the philosophers infobox we will limit the "influenced" list strictly to philosophers. "Infuenced by" will have a broader set of inclusion criteria to include those who had a significant impact on N's thought. If this is so we should ask Picatrix to go ahead and prune the "influenced" list per her proposal above. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 15:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and made the edit. Please check my work. There were some close calls and some notability issues seemed to rear up once the list was pruned to a more viewable size. Nothing is fixed in stone. Consider this a first cut. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 00:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the following suggestion has been considered before, but perhaps the two titles could be changed to reflect the above consensus (as to what the titles mean), i.e. each of the following:
The pros of the change would include:
The cons might include:
I'll add mention of the clarified meanings of the two titles, as hidden text visible only to those who edit. (I'll make the additions in due course, unless there's mention of good reason to the contrary). Bo99 ( talk) 01:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
It is disputed whether Nietzsche died of brain cancer, dementia, pneumonia, stroke/cerebrovascular disease, syphilis, or a combination of two or more of those. Was there never a death certificate issued, or has it been lost/destroyed? Was there a post-mortem? Is there no official documentation regarding what he died of? Werdnawerdna ( talk) 23:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the section entitled 'Nietzsche's letters to his sister' be removed. My justifications and suggestions follow:
1. A section title should reflect the content of that section. In this section, the following content is related to the correspondence between Nietzsche and his sister:
"Friedrich Nietzsche wrote many letters to his sister, Elisabeth, throughout his lifetime. [...] (who had written to his sister about the absurdity of the idea) [...] In a letter from Nietzsche to Elisabeth, he warns her 'not to be misled by any friendly—and in this case dangerous—inquisitiveness, into reading the books that I am about to publish now'."
The following has nothing to do with their correspondence:
"Nietzsche's sister was closely affiliated with the anti-Semitic movement in Germany during the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.[66] In the 1880s, Elisabeth (who was, from early on, a believer in a superior Aryan race) married Bernhard Förster, an anti-Semitic activist. The two proceeded to establish an Aryan colony in Paraguay, which they called Nueva Germania.[67] This project did not go well, and Nietzsche [...] was not surprised.[68] [69] Despite such warnings, Nietzsche's sister distorted his meanings to support her ideas.[70] After Nietzsche's mental collapse, Elisabeth took control of his published and unpublished works, editing as she pleased and frequently misinterpreting him—though whether this was by accident or design is not always clear. After Nietzsche’s death she went even further to reword, and, in some cases, rewrite some of his works. Later, she supported the Nazi regime and tried to integrate Nietzsche's work with Nazi ideology."
This section title does not reflect the preponderance of the content the section contains. It's not about 'letters'.
2. This section is positioned arbitrarily in the overall article. It's stuck onto the end as a sort of afterthought.
3. The section title is already misleading simply because it doesn't accurately reflect the content of the section, as noted. However, it is also misleading in the sense that it suggests that this section will address the (apocryphal?) collection of 'Nietzsche's' letters to his sister.
4. This section is redundant. Most of the information it contains is contained in preceding sections. The one or two non-redundant pieces of information it contains can easily be incorporated into existing text sections. Hence:
Suggestion: remove the unnecessary section and incorporate the items of non-redundant information it contains into existing text. -- Picatrix ( talk) 15:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
CABlankenship has recently added material to the article that is not, in my opinion, an improvement. Because of the work done to the article over the past months (particularly the streamlining of the Philosophy section) the ponderousness of the content has been reduced a bit and it is more streamlined. However:
1. Prior to CABlankenship's recent additions we had no large block quotes by authors other than Nietzsche himself. Substantial quotes regarding Nietzsche, from other authors, have accumulated instead in the sub-articles associated with this primary article. This allows us to keep this article short enough to fit the description of an encyclopedia article, while allowing interested parties to dig deeper in sub pages or in citations. These recent edits add significant length, and one is forced to ask: to what end? Again, the reader will note that other than these recent additions, there are no other large block quotes by other authors currently included. This was not an editorial accident, but the result of consideration by contributing editors of the needs an encyclopedia article should attempt to balance and meet.
2. All three postings cast Nietzsche in a negative light. This too, would seem to be something less than an editorial accident, though driven, perhaps, by less neutral motives, assumptions of good faith notwithstanding.
3. In each case where one of these blockquotes on Nietzsche has been included, one could just as easily add a number of blockquotes from other authors with other opinions. This is an encyclopedia article, not a mediaeval manuscript, and so one wonders what end would be served by collating successive layers of commentary akin to marginalia. If there is any value to these additions (and I do not personally feel there is) the general reader would be better served by short summary sentences.
4. I previously removed the redundant Russell blockquote, though I Ieft it on the "Influence and Reception" sub-page where it was more appropriate (while correcting errors and adding the missing citation details). CABlankenship promptly replaced it here, with no explanation or justification. Whence comes this desire to repeatedly broadcast Bertrand Russell's opinions regarding Nietzsche? Surely once is enough? If not, why?
5. Prior to these additions, all sub-sections under the heading "Philosophy" in this article were related to recognized and much-discussed components of N's philosophy. While a case could be made for adding a section on Nietzsche's attitudes towards 'Evolution' I cannot understand on what basis a section on Nietzsche's 'philosophy of women' might proceed. I am aware of no Nietzsche 'philosophy of women'. Nietzsche might have had attitudes towards women which he expressed in his writing, but adding such a sub-section under the philosophy heading, next to recognized themes like "Eternal Return" and "The Overman" seems to be quite a stretch. "On Women" is basically a section on what Bertrand Russell thinks of Nietzsche's occasional remarks about women. "On Evolution" is basically a section on what Dan Dennett happens to think about Nietzsche's understanding of 'Evolution'. These are sub-optimal contributions.
My own feeling is that these sections are something less than the best use of space. Can any other editors offer suggestions? -- Picatrix ( talk) 00:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I also must point out the attempt to downplay the extent of Nietzsche's fixation with degrading women. I have my copies of Kaufmann's "Portable Nietzsche" and "The Will to Power" here with me, and the truth is, it's difficult to flip through either without stumbling across one of Nietzsche's rants about women. Let's go into more detail.
"Thus Spoke Zarathustra: First Part", p.166-167, Portable Nietzsche (a small sample of a long rant about women): "[T]he bitch...leers enviously out of everything they do...And how nicely the bitch...knows how to beg for a piece of spirit when denied a piece of meat."
Nietzsche then rants a bit about the grandeur of war before picking up again on the subject of women on page 169: "Therefore woman is not yet capable of friendship," "Woman's love involves injustice and blindness against everything that she does not love...Woman is not yet capable of friendship: women are still cats and birds. Or at best cows."
After a bit more discourse about the greatness of manly loyalty and conquest, Nietzsche simply cannot resist another diatribe against women again on page 177-179: "[E]verything about woman has one solution: pregnancy...Man should be educated for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly...Let woman be a plaything...The happiness of man is: I will. The happiness of wman is: he wills...You are going to woman? Do not forget the whip! Thus spoke Zarathustra."
I suppose these are the "occasional" remarks to which you refer? Unfortunately, these "occasional" remarks just keep coming. It's almost like he can't resist, page 239: "And because we know so little, the poor in spirit please us heartily, particularly when they are young females"
His philosophy is endlessly bigoted in this fashion. P.73 (notes 1880-81) contains a rather vile discussion on why it is proper for women to be obedient.
P.468 (Twilight of the Idols) "Man has created woman--out of what? Out of a rib of his god--of his 'ideal'" "Among women: 'Truth? Oh, you don't know truth!" p.469 "The perfect woman perpetuates literature as she perpetuates sin: as an experiment, in passing, looking around to see if anybody notices it--and to make sure that somebody does." p.470 "Women are considered profound. Why? Because one never fathoms their depths. Women aren't even shallow" "If a woman has manly virtues, one feels like running away; and if she has no manly virtues, she herself runs away."
I could go on and on. As Russell said, Nietzsche "never tires" of such insults. "Occasional"? Clearly, Nietzsche devoted considerable time and effort to such musings, as they are peppered throughout all of his works. It is, in fact, difficult to flip through his work without finding such quotes. "The Will to Power" alone contains no less than 23 sections devoted to women, all of them negative. These are sections 91, 94, 95, 119, 145, 182, 196, 268, 377, 732, 777, 806, 807, 811, 817, 824, 838, 842, 864, 865, 894, 934, and 1009. Occasional?
Perhaps you feel that a section written by an amateur would be superior and preferable to a section written by one of the 20th centuries greatest philosophers and scholars. I can't agree, however. I believe the Russell block should stand, and the section should be expanded, if anything.
Or perhaps you feel that it's simply not worth a serious mention, despite the fact that one of our greatest scholars considered it an important aspect of his philosophy? Again, I can't concur. CABlankenship ( talk) 01:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the recent edits are, in my opinion, patently inane: "they recognize that however odious his individual opinion of women may have been, he was not advocating it as a model for others" which suggests in no uncertain terms that this is the 'proper' way to view Nietzsche's comments. I don't see any reason at all to believe that he was not advocating it as a model for others, in fact, the opposite surely seems to be the case.
Regardless, I'm fine with the edit as it stands, although I think Pictrix's bias shines through his attempt to be neutral. It's clear from the edit where his sympathies lie. CABlankenship ( talk) 01:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the words of support! I hear there's lots of work remaining to be done on 'hard' scientific articles here at Wikipedia. Biology and whatnot. I'm sure you've got a lot to contribute in that field. Good luck! -- Picatrix ( talk) 01:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks in return! I'm pretty new to wiki and haven't learned all of the formatting procedures, but with the help of scholars like yourself perhaps I can find something of value to contribute. I must however admit that postmodernist philosophy is not my particular taste, and without your learning I would have been unaware of their defense of Nietzsche's comments on women. Who knew he was actually a feminist? Thanks Derrida! What a genius. CABlankenship ( talk) 03:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
In regards to this edit [1]:
You're making a subjective judgment based on what you consider to be part of his philosophy. Many people, including respected scholars and philosophers, consider Nietzsche's apparent bigotry to be an important fact for understanding his overall world-view and philosophy. It's also surely relevant that Nietzsche had a very confused understanding of evolution, particularly since we can hopefully all agree that it was a dominant theme throughout TSZ, at least. Much of TSZ is very near evolutionary philosophy, and this aspect should be discussed. While it's certainly true that my original topics were one-sided (I admitted that I don't like Nietzsche), I felt that these were important issues that deserved front-page attention.
Deleting the material -- which was soundly researched, relevant, and interesting -- is somewhat petulant. It's clear that the three of us have different opinions on the best stylistic design for a page. It's an artistic dispute, perhaps?
Several times now, the argument has been made that Nietzsche's comments on women do not constitute a part of his philosophy. Obviously, reasonable people can differ on this point. Russell seemed to think it right to include these comments in his summary of Nietzsche's philosophy, which surely carries enough weight and authority to grant it access to a wiki section on the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship ( talk • contribs) 02:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I should also add that philosophy is merely a casual interest of mine -- mostly as it relates to biology -- so you will have to assume that professional remarks such as "These subjects form no part of N.' core philosophy" will probably escape my layman knowledge. You will have to expand on these (I'm sure) highly technical points. CABlankenship ( talk) 02:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
For my part, I feel we're getting somewhere. The edits are an improvement. I should also clarify: my dissatisfaction is with the 'Nietzsche on women' going in the philosophy section on the main page. As I stated at the beginning I feel a case can easily be made for discussion of 'Evolution' in relation to Nietzsche's thought. This, in my opinion, deserves attention. I'm going to break my remarks up into two sections below. Before doing so, I'd like to clarify further my problems with your initial edits; hopefully once and for all. I do this only in the interests of setting a foundation for constructive editorial collaboration. What I find so irritating about your initial edits is that they conveyed to me a sense of someone who was 'more sure than right' coming to share a dubious certainty with benighted dimwits. I've done this myself a number of times, and hence feel qualified to recognize it. Second, my own editorial attitude is that one must suspend disbelief to a certain degree when trying to determine the best editorial course. This is why in my discussion (as in the 'German' question on the talk page for this article) I often go back and forth, and I am willing to abandon positions I find are no longer sustainable. I'm happy to admit when I am wrong - it's only necessary that I see it. Most people claim to take this approach, in my experience few actually do. Whether you will credit it or not, I myself feel that Nietzsche's was capable of great intentional subtlety and was inclined to scatter ambiguity like mines. As a result, I tend to regard any editorial approach to his work that fails to take this into account as counterproductive 'noise'. Nietzsche's ambiguity is exacerbated by an intentional and highly provocative style. Bear this in mind while also remembering we are dealing with a man who made the study of where concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' come from the focus of his work. I hope you will recognize the implications of this for anyone who wants to stroll in and take shocking statements at face value, or apply categories such as 'right' and 'wrong' to Nietzsche's work. If one really wants to fiddle about with Nietzsche you have to approach him with an open mind. In my opinion, anyone who is not willing to do so isn't really here to help.
1. Nietzsche and women. I actually looked at the secondary literature. While you posted a citation that suggests Nietzsche was a basically an asshole who had serious problems with women, I cited material that shows a whole range of opinions. There really is a range of opinions. Though you sneer and cry "Derrida"!, they deserve serious attention. After looking over the way in which male and female, active and passive - metaphors - can be mapped to other life-affirming and life-denying metaphors, and thinking about Nietzsche's reiteration of themes related to men and war (killing) and women and pregnancy (giving birth) some of the citations I provided suggesting subtlety made more sense. There is absolutely no shortage of citations suggesting that women play a role in his philosophy. But this is not the same thing as a philosophy of women. I think the main article could benefit from a brief and summary discussion of citable ideas about the role of women in his thought, perhaps linking to a secondary page. But I think only by doing the necessary work can we determine where that would go (under his philosophy, biography, etc.). You and Bertrand Russell feel he was an asshole because he said mean things about the ladies. For my part I think he said mean things about everyone (with an end in mind). By my lights misogyny is trumped by misanthropy. It's hard to say Nietzsche had problems with women in the face of the fact that he had problems with everyone. If, for example, I hate men and women equally can I be said to be a misogynist? We would have to gather together citations in order to see where the preponderance of citable, verifiable opinion lies, then weight a summary paragraph accordingly, and link to whatever sub page is appropriate. Again, women playing a role in his philosophy is not the same as him having a philosophy of women. Nietzsche discusses digestion (perhaps in a Neo-Larckian context, and with considerable significance) far, far more often than he makes arguably derisive remarks about women. And yet no one has suggested we add a summary paragraph on digestion in the philosophy section. If you argue notability and point out that no one is pissed off about digestion, while people are pissed off about 'misogyny' then again the material has no place in the philosophy section, and instead belongs in the 'influence and reception' article because its notability is based on the reaction it caused.
2. Nietzsche and biology (or 'Evolution'). I think this subject really does deserve attention, and a lot of it. However, in its current form the section on Nietzsche and 'evolution' seems to me based on an editorial policy that cannot be supported. I would support a discussion of Nietzsche's 'biological' thinking (and there is a lot of it) contextualized and explicated in the light of what we know today about phylogenesis. I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s. Furthermore, if we are going to dig into this subject it is necessary to clarify a number of issues for the general reader. 'Evolution' in the sense of verifiable, consecutive changes to life over time in response to environmental factors, and the interrelationship of all life on this basis, is not questioned by serious scientists. I've read nothing that suggests Nietzsche questioned it (and I'm sure we can find citations and support for this). But while there are well-established probabilities, as regards exactly what environmental factors exert selective pressure, and how it is exerted, we're still dealing with real live theories - even today. In this respect there still are no 'truths' so thoroughly tested and verified that the possibility of their being called into question does not exist. And, so far as I know, it was in this area of 'the question' that Nietzsche (thought he?) differed from Darwin. I've been gathering citations. I don't want to be 'more sure than right'. As you are a biologist I would be very pleased indeed to have your help in putting together material that relates to Nietzsche and biology. I would even like to see a whole article on just this. But, as far as my vote is concerned, writing up half-assed 'Nietzsche was wrong' paragraphs is a non-starter. The current version that's up says (more-or-less) 'Nietzsche's thinking on biology was out of step and wrong' with a couple of transparent 'neutrality patches'. Can you not see that this is entirely unjustifiable without first describing, from an informed position, just what he thought and how it differed from what is today 'accepted'? Can you not see how partisan (and stupid) these edits appear in the absence of support? The reader should be permitted to make up his or her mind based on a summary of Nietzsche's thought, in a citable, verifiable and neutral context. What were his thoughts on biology? Can you offer me more citations than a regurgitation of Dennett? For my part I'll offer a few that I've dug up:
(John Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism, Oxford University Press, 2004) Richardson argues that Nietzsche was "deeply and pervasively influenced by Darwin", and that some of his ideas have "a clearer and stronger sense when set on the scientific ground he takes from Darwin."
(Jean Gayon, "Nietzsche and Darwin", in Biology and the Foundation of Ethics, Jane Maienschein, Michael Ruse (Eds.), Cambridge University Press, 1999) p160: "Before we turn to [Nietzsche's] criticisms specifically directed at Darwin, we must deal with the embarrassing issue of whether or not Nietzsche ever read Darwin. In spite of a number of studies on this subject, there is no definitive answer. It is certain that Nietzsche read "A Biographical Sketch of an Infant" (Darwin 1877), because he recommended it warmly to Paul Ree in a letter dated 1877, with a precise reference to Mind. But there is no direct evidence that he actually read even one book by Darwin. He never cited a precise quotation or reference, although that was his common pattern regarding almost all authors. It is likely that he consulted The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, for Richter (1911) mentions some sentences that could hardly have come from anywhere else. It also seems hardly possible that he never read The Descent of Man, in view of his repeated criticisms of the Darwinian theory of the origins of moral behavior. As for The Origin of Species, I tend to believe that Nietzsche did not seriously read that work, but again, direct evidence is lacking. In fact, Nietzsche's knowledge of Darwin's ideas relied essentially, if not exclusively, on German accounts and/or criticisms."
(George J. Stack, Lange and Nietzsche, Walter de Gruyter, 1983) p156: "The relation between Nietzsche and Darwin is a curious and complex one. Probably the earliest contact that Nietzsche had with the then new and revolutionary theory of evolution was in reading Lange's critical discussion of Darwinismus und Teleologie. In this discussion Lange is clearly sympathetic with the essentials of Darwin's theory and accepts without quarrel its anti-teleological consequences. As we shall see, Nietzsche adopted a Darwinian understanding of Man's place in nature, his descent from animal forms, his use of tools for defence (reason) and the employment of "dissimulation" for the sake of survival. To be sure, he does not by any means end in a Darwinian standpoint nor does he agree with Darwin that adaptation for the sake of survival alone is the essential characteristic of living beings. In this regard he is justified in mocking the idea that he is a follower of Darwin in Ecce Homo. Nonetheless, there are a number fundamental notions that are retained in Nietzsche's philosophy that are at least related to Darwinian theory."
(F. Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, (trans. by Thomas Common) Courier Dover Publications, 1999) p258: "to understand his position correctly we must show his relationship to the two greatest of modern evolutionists - Darwin and Spencer. As a philosopher, however Nietzsche does not stand or fall by his objections to the Darwinian or Spencerian cosmogony. He never laid claim to a very profound knowledge of biology, and his criticism is far more valuable as the attitude of a fresh mind than as that of a specialist towards the question. Moreover, in his objections many difficulties are raised which are not settled by an appeal to either of the men above mentioned."
(Dan Stone, Breeding Superman: Nietzsche, Race and Eugenics in Edwardian and Interwar Britain, Liverpool University Press, 2002) - Discussing Mügge's work on Nietzsche (M.A. Mügge 1909) p74: "The issue of consciousness in selection was in fact the thing that Nietzsche believed differentiated his idea of evolution from Darwin's. Neitzsche thought that the ideas of 'natrual selection' and the 'survival of the fittest' were too random to be relied upon, if one was interested in human progress. For otherwise 'the fittest' could easily be the herd, whose safety in numbers secures their propagation. In fact, Mügge was perspicacious in recognizing so early on in the history of Darwinism that Nietzsche's ideas are actually closer to Darwin's than he (Nietzsche) thought, and that the Darwin that Nietzsche attacked was more a popularly received Darwin than the ideas of Darwin himself. Mügge's view, that Nietzsche and Darwin were actually rather close, is one that has been recently confirmed." (He cites here Keith Ansell-Pearson, Viroid Life: Perspectives on Nietzsche and the Transhuman Condition, London, Routledge, 1997, p87) -- Picatrix ( talk) 16:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Picatrix: Please examine how we came to a general consensus on the issue of Nietzsche and woman. I gathered a few facts and some Russell and posted it. You came in with a superior edit which I then allowed to stand, with a few minor reservations. I have not quibbled with or contested your edits on this matter at all. We now seem to be in a purely semantical dispute over whether or not it is a part of his philosophy. That this subject belonged in the philosophy section was not controversial until I added a section on the front page. This is question-begging, and leads me to wonder if we are more concerned with providing information, or with marginalizing unpleasant aspects of Nietzsche.
Please consider that if we look at post-enlightenment philosophy, Nietzsche is easily the most misogynistic great intellectual. Only Schopenhauer comes close to challenging him on this claim, but he ranks a distant second in both frequency and vehemence. To find a challenge to Nietzsche in this regard, we can only turn to Islamic, Ancient Hebrew, and Christian philosophy. This is a very noteworthy fact. Regardless, our only dispute now seems to be whether or not there should be a link about this on the front page in the philosophy section. Surely your fine entry dealing with how we might interpret Nietzsche's comments on women constitutes a mostly philosophical discussion. If this is not part of Nietzsche's 'philosophy' it's surely not part of his 'influence and reception' (whatever we might think that means). And if his comments on women were not present in his philosophy, I'm at a loss as to how we might classify them.
Nietzsche's views on evolution simply cannot be understood unless we have a fundamental grasp of several facts.
1) Like every pre-mendelian thinker, he was unaware of the proper unit and means of heredity. The error of assuming Lamarckian inheritance was common until the 20th century.
2) Nietzsche, Darwin, &c, were unaware of the correct age of the earth. Darwin was operating under the assumption that it was several hundred-million years old; we can only guess that Nietzsche accepted this view, as the truth was not known until many years after their deaths. The foremost authority on this subject, Kelvin, actually proclaimed the earth to be only 100 million years old.
These two facts cast doubt during Darwin's time and until the relatively recent present on whether or not Natural Selection could serve as the primary means of explaining the vast variation of species that we see today. Natural Selection is a necessarily slow-moving process by theory and action, and so it was wondered if there was really enough time for Darwin's theory to be a true factor.
In discussing Nietzsche's philosophy on evolution, it's certainly relevant to discuss whether or not he was correct. The fact remains, Nietzsche based his theories on highly flawed and now completely disproved pre-suppositions. The entire backbone of his ideas on how we might create an overman are not simply subjectively wrong, they are objectively wrong. It is not a violation of neutrality to discuss this matter in an article about Nietzsche and his foray into the subject of biology. I seriously wonder if would gain such resistance in an article whose subject was not a hero of the postmodern movement; notorious for its relativistic challenges on rational inquiry and the scientific method.
While it shouldn't matter that Nietzsche himself loudly condemned the notion that he was a Darwinist (since he really didn't understand Darwin at all, so could have been wrong), he most certainly did not qualify as a true Darwinist. His finest comments that agree with modern science are respectfully added to my entry. Nevertheless, I believe it's impossible to understand Nietzsche's position on biology without pointing out his errors. Likewise, an article that discusses purely Nietzsche's opinions does nothing to instruct the layman reader as to whether he was right or wrong. Again, this is not a matter for postmodern relativism, it's simple science. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
John Richardson is a professor of philosophy, but unlike Dennett he speaks with no authority on the subject of biology. This is an obscure source which seems unnecessary.
Jean Gayon is more noteable, but he fundamentally agrees with the position both of myself and Dennett. That is: Nietzsche was ignorant of Darwin. I have no objection to additions from this source.
George Stack is another philosophy professor well-known for his academic work on Nietzsche. Nevertheless, he speaks with zero authority on biology, and we are best to ignore his efforts in this regard. As John Maynard Smith once said "As a biologist, I'm used to being misunderstood by philosophers."
The Thomas Common introduction is telling: he clearly realizes that Nietzsche was simply wrong about biology, and so he encourages us to ignore this error. While he is correct that neither Darwin nor Spencer had the knowledge to refute Nietzsche's claims on biology, we happily have modern science which has thoroughly discredited Nietzsche's views. I see no value in adding this opinion and apologetics.
Dan Stone is correct. Nietzsche did misunderstand Darwin and actually did agree with him on several points where he falsely believed he had disagreement. This fact is already brought to light in my current article. However, on several points (but not all) where Darwin and Nietzsche agreed, both happened to be wrong and were dealing with false assumptions.
My article on this subject already details where Nietzsche agreed with Darwin (and was correct), where he disagreed with Darwin (and was wrong), and where he agreed with Darwin and both men were wrong. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I can only say that you have obviously failed to read my sources on the biology section. Your statement that I have not produced any sources other than your own is odd, considering I only used your sources in support of my own (Darwin, Dennett, and Kaufmann), with additional links to the direct Nietzsche quotes in discussion, including page numbers. Exact page numbers are given for all sources, for you to verify at your leisure. I was hoping that we could increase the civility of this work, but it's now clear that having gotten off on the wrong foot, you are determined to stay there with your misrepresentations and obfuscations.
On the matter of Nietzsche and women, I point out that you wrote the article. You continue to harp on issues where I have long since conceded the point. "With growing frustration", I notice that you are more interested in personal attacks than in improving this article. I will now address a few of your points on biology.
1)"As I am not a biologist, and therefore, according to you, I have nothing to say on the matter" -- To the contrary, I never said "you have nothing to say on the matter", I unequivocally said the opposite. What I did say was that a few of your sources were of lesser value and authority, and that their erroneous opinions on Nietzsche are easily refuted by careful study of my source material, including that from Kaufmann, Nietzsche himself, and Dennett. Pages were given so that you may read these sources for yourself. I will explain them if you wish, but if you do not understand these issues and will not read the sources, perhaps you should retire from the biology section of this article and await someone with a superior understanding of these issues.
2)"I emphasize if, there is any basis for your confident assertion that Nietzsche offered 'wholesale support for Lamarck's doctrine'" -- This is unambiguously true, as backed up by my sources listed at the end of my paragraph. I would be hesitant to point out your "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche on this completely objective point had you only not been so eager to throw this accusation at myself over the subjective matter of Nietzsche's views on women. Only someone who lacked anything even remotely resembling an understanding of the scholarship on the issue of Nietzsche and Biology would not be aware of this point. See Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293 -- Dan Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p.182, 461-467 -- Nietzsche, The Will to Power, s.647-649, 684-686 -- Nietzsche, The Gay Science s.99 -- John Richardson, "Nietzsche's New Darwinism", p.16-18.
In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293
This source is given in my refs at the end of the paragraph.
3)"what then of those who have asserted in recent times that aspects of Lamarck's model probably did (and do) have scientific merit and hence have not been 'proven false'." The idea of a transfer of 'memes' is somewhat Lamarkian, but it has nothing to do with biological inheritance. The idea of acquired traits being heritable by off-spring is completely disproved. One of the more stunning examples of this was the Lysenko debacle: Lysenkoism
4)"Epigenetic inheritance, whatever its significance, would appear to suggest that the door has not been shut upon Lamarck so firmly as you suggest." -- Epigenetic inheritance in Eukaryote cells has no bearing on the question of heritable traits in sexual organisms. Nothing in epigenetics has anything to do with acquired traits such as the ones proposed by Nietzsche. While there is some use in using Lamarckism as a sort of metaphor for memes, this has nothing to do with Nietzsche's position, or the position of other pre-20th century Lamarckists. CABlankenship ( talk) 10:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Further replies to Pictrix's:
Pictrix quoted in italics.
2. Suggesting that Nietzsche was a misogynist of such monstrous dimensions that he can only be compared to "Islamic, Ancient Hebrew or Christian philosophy" not only suggests a fundamental ignorance of Nietzsche's thought, it also shows clearly how your editorial approach is riddled with retrospective value judgments that take no account of historical context. For example, in the cultural sphere in question, with the emergence of Islam, women for the first time were recognized as having legal rights like the ability to initiate a divorce on their own, as well as recognition of property rights and inheritance. I should also point out that you might find other people are less than satisfied with your regular use of the term 'philosophy' in the broadest possible context (e.g. 'attitude', 'assumption', 'religious belief', 'personal feeling'). It makes it difficult to establish shared definition: a critical feature of collaboration. Again, not just a "semantical dispute'.
The suggestion you mention was not a part of my editorials. It was part of this discussion page, offered up for your consideration in making my point. How this reflects on my alleged editorial "retrospective value judgements" is beyond me, as this was never present in my section pieces.
4. Please actually read what has been written. No one has said that Nietzsche's comments about women were not to be found in his philosophical writings. The point instead hinged on whether he had a 'philosophy of women'. I refer you again, with growing frustration, to my mention of the theme of 'digestion'.
Indeed, "with growing frustration", I note that while I am willing to consider and compromise on the issue of placement, you are not. You have yet to respond to my opinion that sections on Nietzsche's writings are misplaced in the "influence and reception" section.
6. As for your latest edits, I'm forced to ask how it is that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin if he had not read him. I also feel obliged to point out (again with a growing sense of frustration) that once again your entry fails to discuss what Nietzsche thought, and instead offers up a trite list of unsupported statements without citation, except for a rather free use of the ones I provided together with your original Dennett, which you seem to feel is sacred and inviolable, and sufficient to establish consensus across the globe. However, I should point out that you went far, far further as an editor than any of those sources allows, without adding any new ones of your own. Please re-read my previous remarks above, wherein I underlined that "I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s." I find the fact that you have been thumping the same two books with zeal to be disconcerting and indicative of a lack of sophistication in your editorial approach. No one said you could not use Dennett or Russell as sources, it has simply been pointed out that you have to balance and contextualize these citations and put your additions in the right places.
Why would having not read an author prevent Nietzsche from misunderstanding him? Surely being unfamiliar with someones direct work would encourage such misunderstandings, and such misunderstandings are transparently documented in my sources. While you are correct that there is some controversy (mostly from creationists) regarding evolution, the scientific consensus on this score is well-known. You are making very little effort to increase your understanding of these issues to the level even of the educated layman on biology and Nietzsche. I must say that these confusions on your part speak to a large degree on the irony of your accusation that I show a "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche. CABlankenship ( talk) 11:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Notice also that while I initially was dubious of your citation of John Richardson's Nietzsche's New Darwinism (where you quoted a review of the book -- you clearly have not read it yourself), I did something that seems alien to you: I read your source. I went out and bought the book, and I'm now reading it. As you can see, I'm now sourcing him in support of my pre-existing citations. Small sample on the points of agreement between all of my sources, including Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 :
Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.
These points have also been sourced (and posted) with agreement from Dan Dennett, Kaufmann, and my other refs. Dispute of my entry has not been, up to this point, at all reasonable or informed. CABlankenship ( talk) 14:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
In recent years it has become known that Friedrich Nietzsche for a periode of his life used a typewriter. In 1882 he bought a so called Hansen Writing Ball from the Danish inventor, Rasmus Malling-Hansen. On several websites on the internet one can read about Nietzsche and his writing ball, that still exists. A German, Dieter Eberwein, has restored and repaired Nietzsche's old typewriter, and has written a book about the machine and published the appr. 60 typescripts that are known to exist. See here: [www.eberwein-typoskriptverlag.de]
Wouldn't it be of interest to the readers of wikipedia to read about this incident in Nietzsche's life? As I have read, Nietzsche himself claimed that the use of a typewriter influenced on his way of expressing himself. I hope I can be allowed to write a little text about Nietzsche and his typewriter.
-- Sverre avnskog ( talk) 16:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Nietzsche simply viewed women as secondary--even saying they have "an instinct for the secondary". What this means is that while Woman does play a very important role in the development of Man into the Superman, Woman herself has no goal other than to help man achieve his goal--a compass, in and of itself, has no purpose except to help someone find their way. Therefore, his argument against feminism was very similiar to his argument against Christianity--that it is a hinderance to the instinctual drives of man and an obstacle in the way of Man becoming Superman.
"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an OVER-GOING and a DOWN-GOING."
In the course of this 'over-going' and 'down-going' women act as a sort of compass. The closer a man is to being the Superman, the more attractive women will find him and the more control he will possess of both females and his own feminity. See: Malakia.
I'd like to add that it doesn't surprise me in the least that CABlankenship is a man--I would be very, very suprised to read a woman making the same arguments.
I think the time has come to discuss what this editing community should be doing about User:CABlankenship and his admitted negative intentions here. Although his behavior smacks of being a troll, I have no definitive proof of this. With my lack of experience in wiki-politics, I frankly have no idea of the what, when and hows of procedure. Yet, as the discussions above show, he is a tendentious editor intent on pursuing a strict agenda: discrediting Nietzsche. On this page he assumes bad faith and adopts a sarcastic and condescending tone, totally unconducive to constructive dialog. I know Picatrix has especially tried to engage him in lengthy discussions which have proved unfruitful.
In my opinion he needs recuse himself from editing here. Barring that I think we need to take some kind of action. Please speak up and let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 17:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. A student of biology, using a source like Richardson only when it comes to biology while writing on Nietzsche? At most times relying on Russell? That's, obviously, in now way good faith. Why on earth is he claiming to watch philosophy students come to a misunderstanding of Nietzsche? A biology student knows Nietzsche well and philosophers don't? Russell as an expert on Nietzsche? Women are a major part of Nietzsche's philosophy? This is utter rubbish. Someone at Wikipedia needs to step in here, clearly. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HAL0002000 (
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contribs)
11:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Your ad hominem attacks don't bother me Mr. Blankenship but do offer a lively example of the kind of tendentious editor traits I alluded to above. Our problem is not with your sources but with your lack of providing a balanced view per: WP:NPOV. Your research method appears to consist of searching out negative critiques and aggregating them together, not granting what's due to the opposing side. I am not going to engage in long extensive debates with you over these things because, since I suspect you are a troll, that would be exactly what you want me to do—of little value either to me or the others here. You really need to recuse yourself but, because I think that unlikely, I have asked others to give us their feedback. Meanwhile, you may flame away. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 18:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sections in question as unbalanced. I am asking for support to avoid the 3RR rule. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 19:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
You have yet to provide a single source, citation, or reason for why my citations are not balanced. You insist that the section is not fair, but refuse to explain why. How am I to proceed against such a thing? Am I merely left to ponder what your objections might mean? CABlankenship ( talk) 19:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have to agreed on CABlanenship as a problem. Just the fact that he openly, and quite proudly actually, relies on Russell when writing an article on Nietzsche is highly suspect. Brushing aside the work of Tille in favor of Russell, on Nietzsche? There is a pretty clear axe grinding case here I'd say. CABlankenship's positions have been dealt with quite well, and it's somewhat ridiculous that he's making accusations of cultism while relying on an openly hostile source. Rutgers, Prince and NYU all leave out any work of Russell, along with other biased philosophers, in regards to Nietzsche. Check with Bruce Willshire at Rutgers, or Howard McGary at Rutgers. Try Elizabeth Harman at Princeton. Elizabeh Harman, a woman, who receieved her PhD from MIT disagrees with CABlankenship's claims on Nietzsche's thoughts and women and the importance of his writing on women. I mean damn, here email her yourself eharman@princeton.edu. Want more sources that disprove CABlankenship's positions? Try John Richardson at NYU. Look at his paper Nietzsche's Freedoms. What John Richardson of NYU is wrong about Nietzsche and CABlankenship is right?
This is somewhat silly when this person is claiming the top minds in the field are incorrect and he's correct. Wikipedia needs to just stop allowing CABlankenship grind his axe here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL0002000 ( talk • contribs) 11:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
It's clear that some people refuse to actually read my sources, and instead insist that my contributions are wrong or biased. Thus far, no reasons for rejection have been given for my impeccable sources, which include the prestigious philosopher and scientist Daniel Dennett, Nietzsche expert Walter Kaufmann, and the philosopher Richardson, who has specialized in Nietzsche research. Here are some sample citations to clear up my article, which are detailed by book and page already in my refs:
In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- 'Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293'
'Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 : Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.
-Note, Richardson is perhaps the most sympathetic of the authorities when speaking on Nietzsche and Darwin, and makes a strained attempt to argue that if Nietzsche were aware of his misunderstandings of Darwin, he might not have been as opposed to the theory. However, this is a personal opinion of Richardson, and is (as he admits) difficult to resolve with the fact that Nietzsche objected to Darwin on several critical points (such as common descent) where there was no such misunderstanding. Richardson merely speculates that Nietzsche might have changed his mind if he hadn't had such a mistaken view of Darwin and evolution. Richardson also correctly points out that on several issues where Nietzsche thought he disagreed with Darwin, they were actually in full agreement. Indeed, on several of these issues, Nietzsche goes further than Darwin. These views are represented in my paragraph.
As I noted in chapter 7, Nietzsche probably never read Darwin...Nietzsche's references to Darwin...reveal that his acquaintance with Darwin's ideas was beset with common misrepresentations and misunderstandings...On the few points of specific criticism he ventures, he gets Darwin utterly wrong, complaining, for instance, that Darwin has ignored the possibility of "unconscious selection," when that was one of Darwin's most important bridging ideas in Origin. -- 'Dennett (1995), Darwin's Dangerous Idea'
But a small sample of my mutually agreeing sources on these subjects. You are wrong to simply delete this improvement and information, when you don't know what you're talking about.
CABlankenship (
talk)
17:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I think Picatrix has a valid point on the question of the word biology in the opening section. Nietzsche was actually quite interested in biology, and even though he was certainly clearly very 'critical' of the subject, this might give a false view of the picture. Nietzsche retained a life-long passion for biology. Also, your point about providing dates for all of the sources are also valid, and I will correct this tomorrow. Other than that Pica, I don't really think you had much of an argument that I could tell. Can you explain your problems with the rest of the paragraph and sources? You only mentioned that one (valid) complaint. I should answer the rest of your various points, though.
You write as though the view we have of biology today was available to Nietzsche in the 1870s and 1880s, else how would it be possible for his understanding to be 'distorted'?
I said that "Nietzsche's view was distorted by his lamarckism". This is surely true, and comes in direct wording from my sources. Richardson: "This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology." So while you have an interesting theory, it does nothing to refute my source.
This is reflected in your belief that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin even if he has not read him. In fact he cannot. He can only misunderstand Darwin's ideas as reported by others. This is far more than a matter of semantics.
Again, this is an interesting theory, but unfortunately my sources don't agree with you. I think we would be wise to side in favor of experts like Dennett, instead of going with the opinions of any one of us. I have cited two sources in agreement on this point. Whether or not you are correct that Dennett and Richardson are "representative of the murky tendencies to half-articulation and distortion", your opinion on this matter does not override my respected sources.
I have now exhausted your substantial points of contention. The rest is mostly appeals to emotion and insults that I had hoped we could move beyond. I posted a message on your talk page specifically apologizing for losing my temper before, albeit after provocation. My offer stands. We can raise the civility of this and work together on this article in a reasonable manner. I apologize again for my uncivil behavior in previous posts. But that has nothing to do with my article now. I think everyone has a bias, surely, and I have simply admitted my points of disagreement with Nietzsche. I also have many agreements with Nietzsche, which I will be getting to soon in this work. I am trying to do balanced work. You were right to criticize my earlier efforts, but I believe that (other than your point about the word 'biology') you have failed to mount a substantive case against the veracity of my section. CABlankenship ( talk) 09:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
With a man like Nietzsche, it's very easy to come away with a bias one way or the other when reading him. Many are so dazzled by his art and prose that they cannot accept anything less than an erroneous and idealized portrait of the man, while others -- disgusted by his more crude and insulting passages -- hold him in contempt. There are few people who are generally neutral on Nietzsche. For this reason, I will stick to neutral sources of scholarship, including the almost always sober Kaufmann, and the relentlessly accurate Dennett. My own views, opinions, and work will not come into play, as this would be a violation of the 'Original Research' rules. I intend on providing balanced and informative summaries on Nietzsche, intended for the lay reader, with frank citations and sources for his triumphs, errors, and controversial writings.
I am collecting quotes from Nietzsche authors on the other subjects in the 'Various Writings' header, and would appreciate any suggestions for books on Nietzsche on these subjects. If someone else wishes to expand these sections, that would be great. Thanks, CABlankenship ( talk) 08:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Picatrix, would you mind leaving that various writings section up for me? I plan on improving all of those sections. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm dubious of any meaningful connection between Nietzsche and memes. I understand that there is some vague talk of this, and I have yet to read Richardson's chapter on this subject--though I will be doing so soon. If enough credible citations can be gathered on this subject, I believe we should add a section for Nietzsche and his insights into memetics. CABlankenship ( talk) 12:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The wording is so bizarre ("their entire racism") I have trouble believing Kaufmann wrote it. Do you have the text, CABlankenship? I was rewriting the article for clarity, but if you have the text and insist on the wording I am okay with it as long as it is put in quote marks. Kjaer ( talk) 21:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This is all in my ref. Please check my citations in the future. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You aren't answering my question. Can you look at the book and confirm that you have quoted Kaufmann correctly? The wording is so awkward, I doubt he would have said something like that. And if those were his actual words, they should be put in quote marks in the article. Kjaer ( talk) 21:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand the problem. I have quoted him correctly in my ref. Quote marks would violate the spirit of Kaufmann's quote, and would not be consistent with my ref. This would come perilously close to POV, which we cannot tolerate. Sources should be interpreted for their intended meaning, not the meanings we want to portray. That would be 'original research'. Editors must simply capture the source, not insert their own opinions into the material. Kaufmann's exact quote is given in my ref. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You'll also need to explain why racism needs quotation marks. How would this improve the article? CABlankenship ( talk) 22:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
How much more simple can I make it? Did you just now go take the book off your shelf and confirm that the exact words "their entire racism." are the ones on the printed page? There is no question of POV here. I assume English is your native language, so I assume you can tell how strange the phrase "their entire racism." sounds. A google search for "entire racism [full stop]" returns not one single example. One would normally say their "entire racist theory" or the like. Please simply look in the book and let me know if these are his exact words. Kjaer ( talk) 22:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You may check the book and page listed for yourself. I have already confirmed that this was his exact quote. How would quote marks on racism improve this article or make Kaufmann's meaning more clear? CABlankenship ( talk) 22:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
My question is, did you just check the text from the source right now. It simply sounds like a possible misquote. I can verify it the next time I go to the bookstore. Until then, since you will not verify that you have just checked the text it is tagged.Kjaer ( talk) 22:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
In all seriousness, saying that something 'sounds like a misquote' is a silly reason to make such a fuss. There is no reason for you to change my article. Check the quote for yourself if you are so sure it's inaccurate, but do not change until you do. You're being silly. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I have here the book right in front of me and I can verify that Blankenship's quotation is word-for-word faithful to Kaufmann. abrhm17 ( talk) 22:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The quote, whose substance I do not dispute, has to be verified by an independent party. Show good faith. I do not want to change the article at all, just make sure the quote is accurate. The tag stays until somenoe other than Blankenship verifies that "their entire racism" is the exact quote. Do not remove the tag, Blankenship or "abrhm17" or it goes to an adimn. The fact that abrhm17 was just created, and that his talk page was Blankenships until the last edit makes me suspect sockpuppetry.Kjaer ( talk) 22:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This guy can't be serious. Ignoring and reverting. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Why? Hey abrhm17, it appears you're my sockpuppet! congrats. Get an admin, this is hilarious. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Zaz, this guy is just trolling me because I inserted an unfavorable Chomsky quote into his precious Ayn Rand page. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Time to put an end to this absurdity. http://books.google.com/books?id=Rw4u68fxYQMC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=kaufmann+nietzsche+philosopher+psychologist+lamarck&source=web&ots=ZgvVVRxS4k&sig=KFqjfH_FHAyitNiBSh8HkacNDhE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result Quote proved. Reverting. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
looks like abrhm beat me to the punch. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Right, but he was being absurd anyway. He was demanding that I "get the book off the shelf" and check it again. When I told him I doubled checked, he demanded that I get the book off of the shelf yet again because it "seemed" like an inaccurate quote. He is now accusing another user of being a sockpuppet, when that person verified my quote. He's a troll. He's mad because I added a citation that casts doubt on the pure genius of his precious Rand, and now he can't get rid of it, despite his best efforts. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
He's STILL refusing to accept the quote. He has reverted my edits again. This guy is a laugh. He's also filed a sockpuppet charge against myself and abrhm17. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
No problem. I'm not sure we're allowed to use googlebooks as a source, though, hence why I didn't add it myself. I think that page might be protected by copyright. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Blankenship, could you please expalin to me how I could possibly have known that it was you who added the Kaufmann quote here? The accusation of trolling is absurd. The fact remains that no matter what our differences, there is a methodology to wikipedia and we all must follow it. I simply requested that you verify very strange wording. You refused to do so, told me to verify it myself, reverted the tag while insisting that you wouldn't bother to get the text = if you had it. All I wanted was your word that you had looked at the text - nothing more. It happens to turn out that the quote was accurate - a simple matter that could have been handled again just by your saying you had looked at the text. But instead you engaged in vandalism, multiple ereversions, and the sudden appearance of a sock puppet whose talk page happened to be your own. Expalin this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Friedrich_Nietzsche&diff=prev&oldid=261335852
It is not the quote, which I simply wanted to make sure was accurate, but your behavior here that has been the problem. Kjaer ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Abrhm already explained the 'edit' you mention Kjaer. He didn't know about the four tilde sig, so he had been copying other peoples sigs and pasting them after his quotes, and then adding his own name over the name of the person from whose quote he had copied. He forgot to paste over one of the CAblankenship names. Your accusation of 'same talk page' was just made up out of the blue, as has been explained to you. CABlankenship ( talk) 00:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
CABlankenship, your apology is not necessary. All of this would have been avoided if you would simply focus on the article. Again, you repeat that I did this to annoy you. I ask, how could I have known that it was you who added that statement "their entire racism"? How could I have known that you would be the one to respond to it? The strangeness of the quote is obvious. No one says anything in english like "it would disprove their entire racism." Maybe "it would disprove their racist theory." But even "disprove their racism" without entire is odd, because "disprove their racism" means to prove that they are not racist! You immediately started hurling accusations of POV. (What possible POV?) Make paranoid accusations that I am trolling - again, you responded to me - bring up the fact that I edit the Rand page as if it has anything to do with this. (Don't you also edit the Rand page, and doesn't that also make you a nut if it makes me one?) You post that I am a proven liar. About what? You post that I made up the same talk page matter out of the blue - but you yourself see the edit - so how is it out of the blue? And none of this had anything to do with the simple request that you look in a book and check to make sure one word is not misread. Next time simply follow procedure, and don't allow your emotions to act as evidence in your head for my supposed evil motives. After all, if it had in fact turned out that "racism" should have been "racist theory," how would this have hurt the article? How? What that I have done here has in any way hurt wikipedia? Kjaer ( talk) 01:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
My charges are not malicious. It was you who reverted a valid tag while outright refusing to answer a very simple and reasonable question. It was you who branded me a troll. I was not fraudulent. I did not make up anything, I did not call you a liar, I called you a possible sockpuppeteer while you made every possible accusation in the book, now including malice and fraud. Even if you are not a sockpuppeteer, which I do not know one way or the other, you committed vandalism by removing the tags. I made a simple inquiry. A 30 second post. You could simply have said you didn't have the text in front of you. You didn't even have to respond. Instead, with you hostility, your refusal to answer an honest question, your improper edits, you insults, you wasted my time and did everything possible to make me sure you are acting in bad faith. You have to show your good faith. I am sure we will have no problems going forward. Let's keep this off this talk page and stop wasting everybody's time.Kjaer ( talk) 02:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The lead paragraph states: "and a repudiation of both Christianity (especially 19th-century) and Egalitarianism (especially in the form of Democracy and Socialism)." Yet the issue of 19th Century Christianity is not discussed further in the article. I think that you could easily say that he repudiates Christianity, and could argue that he criticized aspects of contemporary Christianity. But that would need a citation. Unless there are objections I intend to remove the refernce to 19th century as not yet supported and not relevant to the main text. Kjaer ( talk) 03:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Here is what I have on politics for Nietzsche so far, my sources are Bertrand Russell, "A history of western philosophy", p.760-772 and Walter Kaufmann, "Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist" - various pages which I will list later. Here is my work so far:
Nietzsche admires certain qualities which he believes to be only possible for an aristocratic minority; the majority should be only means to the the creation of an elite, and should not be regarded as having any independent claim to happiness or well-being. He often refers to ordinary human beings as the "bungled and botched," and sees no objection to their suffering, but only if it is necessary for the production of a great man. This is consistent with Nietzsche's praise for Napoleon: "The Revolution made Napoleon possible: that is its justification. We ought to desire the anarchical collapse of the whole of our civilization if such a reward were to be its result." Allowing for his usual hyperbole, Nietzsche believed that "all of the higher hopes of this century" were due to Napoleon.
Nietzsche believed that it was necessary for higher men to make war upon the masses, and resist the democratic tendencies of his age: "Everything that pampers, that softens, and that brings the 'people' or 'woman' to the front, operates in favour of universal suffrage—that is to say, the domination of 'inferior' men." It is not surprising that Nietzsche condemned Socialism. Socialism to Nietzsche was essentially identical in spirit to Christianity. Nietzsche believed that any notion of equality of human beings was manifestly false as an objective point, and foolish romanticism as a political ideology. Nietzsche advocates the protection of artists, poets, and all who happen to be masters of some skill, but only if they are among the best of their order.
Nietzsche is not, however, a worshiper of the state; his views are oftentimes positively anarchist. Nietzsche was a passionate individualist: "The misfortunes of all these small folk do not together constitute a sum-total, except in the feelings of mighty men." Nietzsche is not a nationalist, and shows no admiration for Germany. Nietzsche desired an international ruling race, who are to be the lords of the earth: "a new vast aristocracy based upon the most severe self-discipline, in which the will of philosophical men of power and artist-tyrants will be stamped upon thousands of years." Nietzsche wished to see what he calls the "noble man", which is in no way a universal type, as a governing authority. This "noble man" will be capable of cruelty, and will recognize duties only to his equals. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Needs a lot of cleaning up, I know. But that's an example of my sources so far. I will cite everything like I did in the biology section when I'm done collecting sources and deciding on content. Suggestions and citations are welcome. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
More:
Nietzsche cannot be viewed, however, as a supporter of Capitalism. He was strongly critical of the notion of division of labor, saying: "it does not teach individual autocracy: it makes of many one machine and of every individual an instrument to an end. Its most generalized effect is to teach the utility of centralization." Nietzsche went on to say that it creates a "despairing boredom of the soul, which teaches them idleness in all its varieties." He said that wage earners under capitalism are worse off than slaves because they are at the "mercy of brute need" and of employers who exploit them. Instead, Nietzsche advocated individualist revolt against such measures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What's remarkable about Nietzsche is that there is something in his work for everyone. Are you a Socialist? Nietzsche has poignant arguments against Capitalism. Are you a Capitalist? Nietzsche has cunning arguments against Socialism. Anarchist? You'll find much to agree with in Nietzsche. Fringe hold-out doubter of Darwin and evolution? Nietzsche serves up ammo. Darwinist? Nietzsche has plenty of writings that the Darwinist will love. I can't really think of any other writer in history of whom this can be said. It's probably because Nietzsche basically attacked nearly everything. Except for the French. CABlankenship ( talk) 10:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What is the deal with this reliance on Russell when it comes to Nietzsche? Not trying to be rude here, but what gives? The Cambridge dictionary uses none of his work on Nietzsche, nor does the Standord encyclopedia. —Preceding
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HAL0002000 (
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10:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I've tried to balance the section on evolution a little bit. It now starts with Lamarckism and ends with Nietzsche's criticism on Darwinism. BTW: Should the biology section contain a reference to Nietzsche's position on Eugenics and euthanasia? For example, Alfred Hoche and Karl Binding referred to Nietzsche in their influential paper on eugenics and euthanasia in 1922 (see Life unworthy of life). (A paper called Freigabe der Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens, in English: Release for Annihilation of Life Unworthy of Life), -- D.H ( talk) 12:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Kaufmann states quite strongly that any connection between eugenics and Nietzsche was a Nazi lie. Also, Nietzsche was quite aware of the supporters of eugenics during his own time (Spencer, Galton) and he loudly rejected and mocked them. I currently have only one source on this issue (Kaufmann), but my own reading leads me to believe this is true. It's just too simple. Nietzsche's position on what we ought to do is quite unclear, and he kept himself mostly to criticizing the work of the English biologists (all of whom he despised and insulted regularly, including Darwin, who he referred to as 'stupid'). There is another problem here, namely, what to do about the people who insist on taking Nietzsche out of context. Oftentimes, Nietzsche would lay out the argument of the case he intended to debate, and then in the next paragraph he would utterly attack that position. Darwin and many other 19th century writers would do the same thing. This leads to a lot of examples of taking Nietzsche out of context (which is exactly what the Nazis did), and something we have to watch for, especially in the postmodern work on Nietzsche, as they have admitted contempt for truth, and they have an agenda to distort Nietzsche to fit their own modern liberalism. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
You are too much relying on Kaufmann (like most Americans....). For example, another well known philosopher (at least in Germany), Rüdiger Safranski, tells us that there is (in some way) a connection between Nietzsche's philosophy and the Nazi-Philosophy of Alfred Baeumler and (in a very crude form) the eugenics programs of Hoche/Binding. BTW: Not only the Nazis understood Nietzsche as a Socialdarwinist. For example, see the preface of the first Nietzsche-translation by Alexander Tille in this book (1899). They are based on Nietzsche's comments like his "Morality for physicians" (Twilight of the idols) "The sick man is a parasite of society. In a certain state it is indecent to live longer. To go on vegetating in cowardly dependence on physicians and machinations, after the meaning of life, the right to life, has been lost, that ought to prompt a profound contempt in society. The physicians, in turn, would have to be the mediators of this contempt--not prescriptions, but every day a new dose of nausea with their patients. To create a new responsibility, that of the physician, for all cases in which the highest interest of life, of ascending life, demands the most inconsiderate pushing down and aside of degenerating life--for example, for the right of procreation, for the right to be born, for the right to live." -- D.H ( talk) 11:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Moving past biology (hopefully — even though the section is way too sympathetic to Nietzsche in my opinion), maybe we can move on to his politics. While this is going to be a matter that requires significant debate, I think this time it can be fun. Obviously, pointing out Nietzsche was wrong about a lot of his biology (gasp) was bound to be challenged, but I think we can move past matters that are so clearly a slight to his omnipotence (does this make him less of an Übermensch?), and so maybe we can have an entertaining and witty debate without losing our tempers. I promise to do this.
I have listed my source on Nietzsche's politics, and it is Bertrand Russell. The piece on Capitalism is postmodernist distortion [1], but I would allow it to stand unless someone has a more credible source on how we should view Nietzsche on capitalism. The whole of the other paragraphs capture the spirit of what I would write on him now, and I believe that Russell cannot be contested as a source unless one is willing to argue that he is either wrong or a liar. In either event, considerable evidence will have to be produced for this, in my opinion. Sources will have to be found of enough credibility that they prove my authoritative source is either wrong or a liar.
With that in mind, how could anyone defend Nietzsche's politics? I'm eager to hear someone try. While it's clear that Nietzsche was a controversialist who simply liked stirring the pot, surely we admit that his writing on this subject (while amusing and entertaining) is nothing anyone can take seriously. Russell, a man known for his sobriety, deals with no-one in History of Western Philosophy as harshly as Nietzsche. He clearly despises the man. So from that, we must conclude that Russell took Nietzsche at face value. But how else are we to take him? I'm eager to hear what others have to offer. Was Nietzsche just joking? Is it all some complex metaphorical point that escapes the reading of lesser people like Russell? Perhaps I should study a postmodern Nietzschean Defense of Democracy [2], which tells us of the "Hermeneutical Complications" of interpreting Nietzsche's work on politics, where the author bitterly concedes that Nietzsche "assailed notions of equality, rationality, emancipation, and human rights", and worse still "Nietzsche proposed a politics of power and domination, an aristocratic cultural order meant to generate and support higher types of creative individuals and to counter the leveling tendencies of democratic sentiments", which becomes a "problem" for the "postmodern student" of Nietzsche: most of them strongly support democracy and the very values that Nietzsche so despised. But the author has the answer. A swirl of bewildering ideas struck him and: "converged in a clash that gave me pause: The Greek experience of democracy as an open contest of speeches, Plato's repudiation of democracy, Nietzsche's critique of Plato, Nietzsche's affirmation of contention, and Nietzsche's repudiation of democracy", "Something is wrong here," the author concludes. This is typical of the scholarship in the postmodern takes on Nietzsche's politics that I have read so far. I am open to any other examples that show me that my source is wrong in some way. Otherwise, I think we should begin to open up the section on Nietzsche's politics. Does anyone else have any good sources? CABlankenship ( talk) 06:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Rubbish. 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.' CABlankenship ( talk) 01:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Libertarian hogwash — a republic is a form of democracy. CABlankenship ( talk) 02:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no consensus on this score. Jefferson, for instance, used the terms democracy and republic interchangeably. Others, like Madison, differentiated between a pure democracy and a constitutional republic, which simply contains democratic forms. Plato's Republic was very similar to communism, but not very democratic. As Jefferson said, these terms are vague and mean different things to many different people. You happen to favor using these terms within a libertarian framework. Reminds me of Ron Paul supporters. CABlankenship ( talk) 15:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that I'm sorry that I failed until now to notice a fantastic contribution. The section on Nietzsche's writing ball is excellent! One almost wishes it were a complete fabrication. Without disrespect I can say it's one of the funniest things I've ever read. I also like the voice. Simply reading the section about his writing ball makes the rest of the article unnecessary! I've never in my life come across a better 'summary' memory image for Nietzsche's life and work. And oh, what we can all learn from a restoration of Nietzsche's 'damaged' writing ball! And the mechanic who made it worse! This little section is great. Congratulations! -- Picatrix ( talk) 14:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, it's a great addition. The poem is a fine ending to the article, also. I added an English translation. CABlankenship ( talk) 16:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm done researching Nietzsche, moving on. Good luck with the article. The philosophy of Nietzsche page is a disaster, in my opinion. Like this gem: " Deleuze, arguably the foremost of Nietzsche's interpreters, used the much-maligned 'will to power' thesis in tandem with Marxian notions of commodity surplus and Freudian ideas of desire to articulate concepts such the rhizome and other 'outsides' to state power as traditionally conceived." There is so much pomo nonsense that can reasonably be cited on Nietzsche that I doubt this page could ever offer a sober portrait of him. Shame, but maybe he deserved it. CABlankenship ( talk) 17:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I've done some poking around online and I found references indicating that the typewriter was a gift to Nietzsche from his sister, and that it was delivered to him in Genoa by Rée. Perhaps these are older conclusions that have since been corrected? Can anyone clarify? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I love it, but you're right. My enthusiasm has waned. However, can someone think of a minimally intrusive way of keeping some tiny mention of it somewhere in the main article, just so that it doesn't disappear altogether into another article where folks reading about Nietzsche are not likely to find it? I knew nothing about the device and Nietzsche's use of it until I saw it here. Maybe we could add a half-sentence mention of it placed with discussion of Nietzsche's struggles with his health and eyesight, where it would provide context? While the complete section is trivial, the fact around which it is based has some claim to inclusion. It makes Nietzsche's struggle with illness and his drive to keep on writing in the face of approaching blindness more concrete as an example. -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please add a good audio pronunciation or an english phonetic pronunciation? I would really appreciate it. M00npirate ( talk) 17:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I think that should exist a section about references of Nietzsche´s in popular culture, as exists for other biographies here in English Wikipedia. There are many things about him in movies or television series that can serve to article. Movies like When Nietzsche Wept (based in a best-seller), that are important for people interessed on other form to know Nietzsche´s work out of thw words. There are other film, Saint Ralph, wich explores Nietzsche´s themes such as Übermensch and God is Dead very well. I wrote this section because this edition was reverted, so I think it is better told you these things before create more confusion. Sorry my really bad English. -- Fernando S. Aldado ( talk) 21:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
My own opinion is that references to Neitzsche in 'popular culture' are not appropriate in the Nietzsche article. They seem to be little more than trivial page-clutter and do nothing to advance knowledge of the article's subject. I am strongly against the inclusion of such a section. -- Picatrix ( talk) 20:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Generally, speaking I agree with Picatrix. "Popular culture" sections usually add very little to Wikipedia articles. If you want to include a section on Nietzsche "in popular culture", you'll need to cite third party sources that films or TV shows you reference are (1) notable in and of themselves and (2)that they contribute in someway to our understanding of Nietzsche. Wikipedia requires that we have reliable sources, avoid original research, and establish notability. So if you can find--for instance--an article or book in which a Nietzsche scholar compares popular depictions of Nietzsche's biography and his philosophy with current academic work no Nietzsche, I would support a very brief discussion of the topic. (An extended discussion would need to have it's own article.) Fixer1234 ( talk) 07:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
The second paragraph in the intro seems to sort of hang there and doesn't really add to the preceding paragraph. Nor does it stand in a meaningful way on its own. As a biographical snippet its content seems highly arbitrary. I suggest we expand it slightly or (perhaps more wisely) remove it from the opening and incorporate the biographical information (if/as necessary) into the bio below, which of course immediately follows. Thoughts? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is logical, it would censor all anti-democratic ideologists, esp. one embedded in the literate public mind, like Nietzsche. Democracy is the essence of freedom, and the implicit basis of wikipedia. Nietzsche's worldview would never allow democratic, communitarian/social experiments like Wikipedia to exist, so what's with the moral outrage about twisting his words for the sake of democracy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.148.192 ( talk) 13:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I remember, not too long ago, seeing a section in this article concerning Nietzsche's views on Darwin/evolution. Now the section appears to be missing. What reason, if any, was there for removing it? We're discussing the very topic in my philosophy class right now and so I think it is/was rather useful information. However, I do not want to reinsert the section if there was a decided-upon reason to remove it. - albrozdude ( talk) 05:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
My sources on that section were Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Walter Kaufmann Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, and Richardson Nietzsche's New Darwinism. Most of Nietzsche's remarks regarding evolution and Darwin come in The Will to Power, and precise sections can be found using the index. CABlankenship ( talk) 15:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
While interesting, the space devoted to the typewriter in the article seems wholly out of proportion to its relative importance to the subject. It should be reduced or made its own article or made into an article on the device itself with some touching on Nietzsche. Ekwos ( talk) 01:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 |
1. The Issue At Hand: On August 1st, user Pedant17 again attempted to edit the line identifying Nietzsche as a German philosopher. He has argued that the label "German philosopher" is vague, simplistic, and misleading to the point that it should not be used in our lead. As of August 2, 2008 he has not offered any good sources, scholarly or otherwise, which support his point of view.
2. "Nietzsche and the German Tradition": Pedant17 has pointed to the essay collection Nietzsche and the German Tradition to support his point of view. I have the book sitting next to me, and I fail to see what part of the book supports Pedant17's view. In fact, in his essay Nietzsche as German Philosopher, Thomas J. Brobjer writes:
The claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers...BUT WITH REGARD TO THE SECOND GROUP OF LESSER KNOWN GERMAN PHILOSOPHERS THIS CLAIM HAS ESSENTIALLY NO VALIDITY...NIETZSCHE, IN SPITE OF HIS CRITIQUE, WAS A GERMAN PHILOSOPHER, SPOKE AND WROTE IN GERMAN, AND LIVED IN A GERMAN CULTURAL CLIMATE (Page 41).
Unless Pedant17 is willing to demonstrate good faith by suppling us with reliable sources to support his opinion, I feel it is time to seek some sort of formal arbitration to prevent him from making this same edit every few months. Fixer1234 ( talk) 02:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not really familiar with the issue as far as how the arguments balance out in the secondary literature. However, my sense is that this is not a question of either/or. As I tried to clarify in one of my edits, the issue seems to relate to the differing contexts in which one could assert whether he was "German". German citizenship, culture, ethnicity and language are four different things. For example, is someone with Austrian citizenship "German"? An Austrian might exist within the German cultural sphere, very generally speaking, and in the sense of language and perhaps shared cultural elements would be "German". But would a writer from the Austo-Hungarian empire be a German? Would such a writer even be an "Austrian" since the state by this name did not exist as such when he or she lived? Kafka is described here in the English Wikipedia as a "German language" writer, of Jewish descent, from Prague, in an attempt to deal with the mixed claims of ethnicity and language. I think the issue here is that the philosopher himself disavowed being a "German", and he frequently mentions the idea of the "good European" alongside derisive attacks on the newly crafted German nation. From this point of view calling Nietzsche a "German" without qualification seems like irresponsible misrepresentation. The number of citations which suggest that Nietzsche was "German" make no matter if qualifications surrounding the context are not offered. The number of people who generally refer to Nietzsche as a "German" in scholarly literature makes no difference in the face of the fact that he was not a German citizen, derided the German nation, and went to considerable and verifiable pains to distance himself from Germany. In this case the weight of the primary literature seems to me most important. If we are to accept Brobjer's argument we should refer to the Swiss and Austrians (and some Poles) as Germans because they spoke, wrote and lived in a "German cultural climate". Nietzsche verifiably became a good European and spent his later years wandering the continent. He also made strong arguments for the idea that a philosopher's life and actions are as important as his writings. In both his writings and his actions he distanced himself from being "German". Are we then to blithely list him as a "German"? Are we to assume that once a person is safely dead we can disregard the way he chose to identify himself? Again, this is a particularly important question given that Nietzsche's life, writings, philosophy and actions verifiably show that the idea of distancing one's self from "nationalism" was critical to his attitude and ideas. In short, should a summary paragraph focus on how others identified the subject of an encyclopedia article, or on how the subject of the article chose to identify (verifiably) his or her self while alive?
In this context, the actual question at hand is:
Does referring to Nietzsche as a "German" in the opening paragraph because of the frequency with which this designation appears in secondary literature violate NPOV policy by disregarding the following verifiable facts:
1. Nietzche chose to identify himself as a European
2. took the affirmative step of annulling his Prussian citizenship
3. never held citizenship in the German Empire
4. advances a philosophy which explicitly dismisses nationalism in general (and "German" nationalism in particular)
That said, as Pedant17 (apparently?) holds a minority view here, he or she has to do the hard work to advance the position. Furthermore, I do not support Pedant17 coming in and repeatedly changing things in the face of contrary arguments. I should also note that the issue of Nietzsche's feelings about being "German" is already addressed in "Notes on Citizenship" in this article (though this is a very clumsy solution, in my opinion). If I may speculate, it seems that Pedant17's concern is that despite the note, the summary paragraph describes Nietzsche as a "German", perpetuating the casual treatment that this subject receives in literature intended for the general public. While I have some sympathy for this point of view, the way in which he or she is dealing with the disagreement is not acceptable. If Pedant 17 wishes to make this a cause, then he or she should do the work of gathering the citations, presenting his or her argument in a clear way. He or she should also be willing to compromise - after all, as I mentioned, the article already discusses this question at length. The issue which everyone should address is whether existing mention is sufficient, and whether or not the summary paragraph's cursory treatment violates NPOV. --
Picatrix (
talk)
11:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer to Wikipedia, but it seems to me that desire to decisively "settle" academic questions should be guarded against. I'm also not sure how to imagine a community being patient or passing judgment. Both those things are the prerogative of individual editors. If I address a question to "the community" I'm certain it will be individual editors who answer. Anyway "the community" is five or six people in this case, so far as I can tell. I have not reviewed all of Pedant17's edits, but the facts adduced suggest to me that someone feels an edit needs to be made and others disagree. I just reviewed his or her apologia pro, and the arguments seem sound. They warrant a coherent response. For this reason I'm striking some of my comments above. It seems that Pedant17 is quite right about being ignored. Ignoring good supporting arguments - and then complaining about a user who continuously attempts to make the edit that those arguments support - strains the assumption of good faith. I also reviewed the request for comment and it seems groundless to me. From my point of view, passing judgement on an editor with a minority opinion because he or she hasn't graciously accepted "defeat", and because he or she continues to suggest a change is as comical as it is counter-productive. While I'm undecided about whether I should expend my energy on arguing the case for putative German identity one way or the other, I certainly support the idea that we should all seriously consider the idea of changing the designation. In that respect you can count this as my vote of support for discussion of the question. I like coming back to questions, again and again. That's what the "show preview" button is for. I suggest that those who support the idea of Nietzsche being German present their argument for keeping the current version in place. I'd like to see a cogent and thorough argument for why he should be called a German. In the absence of any such affirmative argument I suggest we set about drafting a new version here based on consensus. -- Picatrix ( talk) 05:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
It could be argued that Nietzsche should not be regarded as a German philosopher at all. ... Firstly, at the age of twenty-four he 'resigned' his Prussian citizenship and thereafter remained stateless for the rest of his life. Secondly, the strongest early philosophical influences on himn were not German but greek and American in the form of Plato (and other ancient Greeks) and Emerson. He will soon thereafter become strongly influenced by Schopenhauer, Lange and Kant, but this influence he will later reject, which was not true for the influence of Emerson and the Greeks. Thirdly, he never mentions a number of important German philosophers such as Wolff, Mendelssohn, Thomasius, Jacobi and others, and he apparently has not read anything at all, or only very limited amounts of Leibniz, fichte, Schelling, Herbart and others. Fourthly, Nietzsche himself did not want to be a German philosopher. He was the most anti-German of all German philosophers and suggested 'German' as a new four-letter word suitable for something very superficial and he claimed that it would be easier to translate his books into French than into German. Instead, he referreed to himself as a good European. Fifthly, the Germans themselves do not wish to regard him as German, at least in the general sense which is reflected in the fact that many Germans are ashamed of him and that Berlin not only has one , or several, Kant, Schopenhauer and Fichte streets etc., and also one or two Hartmann, Stirner and Treitschke streets, but no Nietzsche street. ... The claim that Nietzsche was not a German philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers discussed in this paper, but on the other hand, the Zeitgeist of the second half of the nineteenth century was so steeped in metaphysical philosophy and the great German philosophers that, even without a first-hand reading, a German student or intellectual would have been relatively well acquainted with them." (pp 40-42).
Wow. I just went over the heaps of back-and-forth recorded in the archive. I apologize for not having better prepared myself, and thereby having made it necessary for you all to have to repeat yourselves. I still have not had a chance to dig into secondary literature but even if a number of citations are found I think it's unlikely that they would support any sort of 'shoe-horning' of a nationality discussion into the opening paragraph, which should be concise and as clear as possible. In the balance of things some ambiguity can, in my opinion, be tolerated. That said it is clear that Pedant17 is not 'wrong' and that his or her argument has merit. Choosing to streamline the biographical information for purposes of a general introduction does in fact introduce significant ambiguity. Pedant17 also seems to feel strongly enough about the subject to hammer away at it for a few years. Instead of initiating requests for comment and all the rest is there some other approach or way of dealing with this issue that will result in a necessary minimum feeling of satisfaction for all parties? I should ask explicitly: Pedant17, can you suggest a solution to the problem that we all recognize, that does not involve removing "German philosopher" from the intro text? Surely we can all figure out an acceptable compromise. It seems positions have ossified here and that it should be easy to find a way to meet in the middle. Note: I do not mean to suggest that a compromise solution is not already in place in the form of the "Notes on Citizenship". -- Picatrix ( talk) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps that the subject of Nietzsche's feelings on citizenship, nationality, and state, might deserve a separate article. I've found a fair amount of material that would support such an endeavor. If Pedant17 wished to work on such an article I would be happy to help, and it would give the subject the attention it deserves. But Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth. How else are we to explain his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle? If we say he is not a German in the opening paragraph we might do justice to his later, intentionally crafted identity, but we'd replace one ambiguity with another: for part of his life Nietzsche was a citizen of a German nation. However, after looking into all of this, I feel that the most important argument in favor of leaving the ethnic description "German" in the introductory text is the definition of the word. My unabridged Websters shows "German" as: "1. A citizen or native of Germany; a person of German stock". My full OED shows German as "Of or pertaining to Germany or its inhabitants. The precise signification depends on the varying extension given to the name Germany." it notes that the earliest meaning of the word, deriving from the Latin, as "the designation of persons belonging to a group of related peoples inhabiting central and northern Europe, and speaking the dialects from which the 'Germanic' or 'Teutonic' languages have been developed." This suggests that in its earliest - and still its recognized primary sense - the word German does precisely serve its function of generally indicating Nietzsche's native land, ethnicity and language. Arguing that a word should not be included because one of its senses - and the most recent - creates ambiguity (citizen of modern Germany) while three other senses are right on the mark - and older - (native of a German land, German ethnicity, German language speaker) is not sufficient reason to introduce confusion or awkward phrasing such as "a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher) who wrote in German" into the opening paragraph. That said I would be willing to see this opening sentence footnoted, or a separate article discussing the issue of his citizenship and nationality. But changing the German designation in the opening paragraph would be the sort of pedantry I cannot support (rare as that is), which is to say the sort that is too clever by half, and cuts off the nose to spite the face. By getting tangled in such niceties at the outset we'll be much more likely to cause confusion for new readers, and in any case the interests of the persons who would be looking for such details are being addressed by the existing note on citizenship. I've really listened to Pedant17's arguments past and present, I recognize their merit, and I've looked into the secondary literature. But I can't support changing the opening paragraph in this case. It is also not longer possible for Pedant17 to claim that he or she is being ignored. I suggest that we harness his or her enthusiasm and energy, and recognize the merit of his or her arguments by supporting the creation of separate article. This would add further clarity and conciseness in the main article, give the subject a full treatment in an appropriate place, and hopefully transform a nuisance (for some) into a constructive contribution. --
Picatrix (
talk)
13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, and for your interest in this subject. The point in this case is not whether you or I could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions, it is rather whether others have in reliable secondary sources. When I refer to Nietzsche as thinking of himself as a German for part of his life I refer to the broadest ethnic and linguistic meaning. I am in full agreement with you regarding the foolishness inherent in retrospectively projecting our current mythos/ethos of "nationalism" backwards in time and speculating that the same assumptions held sway in the past. I do not suggest that he thought of himself as a German in any sense that would require assuming an outlook of "pan-Germanism" on his part. Your point regarding anachronism as regards his military service is also well taken. Against this view (which I feel is quite reasonable), one might suggest that the most fundamental behavioral indicator of a sense of collective identity is the fact of participation in war waged by that collective. From this point of view the ideological justification for participation in struggle is usually a rationalization of a deeply felt sense of obligation to the herd of which one is a part (which is of course a subject that occupied Nietzsche's attention). The "civic or humanitarian" obligations you mention derive from collective identity. Whether that identity was in the past defined as Prussian national identity, or German cultural and linguistic identity is of little consequence, given that we today habitually designate this collective (however Procrustean it may be) as "German". If you wish to campaign against the ignorance inherent in nationalistic assumptions, or the violence that our ill-considered terminology often does to history I applaud you. But this article is not the place to fire the first salvo. Nietzsche struggled on behalf of the people who spoke his mother language (German) and occupied the territory he was then a citizen of. I do not suggest that this is an argument that trumps yours, merely that it is an alternative point of view that should receive the attention it is due. In any case, we are engaging in defense of positions based on our own research and thoughts. Happily we can set this approach aside (while keeping our wits about us) and present the different attested viewpoints available in the secondary literature, in keeping with editorial guidelines.
My own feeling is that we should not confine ourselves to Nietzsche's own views, as this depends upon our own (potentially original) interpretation. Instead we should gather and display all of the primary material which is attested in Nietzsche's writings in the context provided by secondary literature, thereby assuring that we are not presenting original research. By addressing the various facets of the question dealt with by researchers we aim to ensure some facsimile of neutrality. The distinction between collation and organization, which is appropriate work for a Wikipedia editor, and original research, which is not, is sometimes hard to establish. For this reason editors often push for the most conservative interpretations and demand extensive citation and support from secondary sources. I hope it is clear that I am not arguing against original thought and research by individual scholars - rather I'm arguing against accepting it from Wikipedia editors.
I would like to hear what others here think of creating the new article, and what input (if any) they would like to offer regarding its potential structure. There is no shortage of material which deals with the citizenship and nationality question, and Nietzsche's thoughts about it. As a taste here are a few references I pulled when this subject first came up. There's more...
Lester H. Hunt, Nietzsche and the Origin of Virtue, Routledge 1993, p 37 [In section entitled "The Phenomenology of Citizenship"]: "By now it is obvious enough, I hope, why Nietzsche thought culture and the state are antagonistic and why his sympathies were overwhelmingly on the side of culture. His conception of culture is connected more or less by definition with the notion of development toward the ideal, in the he conceives of culture as that which fosters this sort of development. He has a very definite idea of what sort of awareness must be promoted in order for this mission of culture to be achieved. On the basis of an analysis of the sort of consciousness into which those who live in states are liable to fall - on the basis of might be called his phenomenology of citizenship - he believes that states tend by nature to interfere with the development of this sort of awareness. The state is thus antagonistic toward culture and, for all the same reasons, inferior to it."
Paul Van Tongeren, Reinterpreting Modern Culture, Purdue University Press, 2000, p 23 and p26: "Nietzsche was never very excited about either the political or the military events in the Germany of his day. As a matter of fact, Germany hardly existed. Nietzsche lived in Prussia, one of the states that later united with others to form Germany."
[and]
"Nietzsche accepted the appointment and, without any remorse, renounced his Prussian and German citizenship. From this point on Nietzsche was no longer a citizen of any nation. His lack of citizenship allowed him, later on, to call himself the first European (this could be another reason not consider him a German philosopher)."
Lou Andreas-Salome, Nietzsche, University of Illinois Press, 2001, ix, [regarding the photo of Nietzsche, Salome and Ree]: "The photograph's caption - 'Friedrich Nietzsche, formerly professor and now a wandering fugitive' - was mischievously snipped and transposed from a letter to Ree by Nietzsche in 1879, referring to the severance from his ten-year position at the University of Basel. The self-description 'fugitivus errans' had nothing to do with the idea of madness. It suggested Nietzsche's statelessness; he had to relinquish his German citizenship in 1869, but because of "continuous residence" requirements he never became a Swiss citizen either; instead he was pleased to call himself a 'good European'".
Catherine A. Holland,The Body Politic, Routledge, 2001, p175: "Can we break the spell of citizenship? Can we, as Nietzsche put it, conceive of a 'past from which we may spring rather than that from which we seem to have derived?'"
Let your citations do your work for you. -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Self-hatred and hybris have always co-existed quite comfortably in the self-perception of educated Germans (Hoelderlin !). Nietzsche`s idiosyncratic rantings about being a Polish noble don`t change the fact that he was a German. In rejecting democracy and egalitarianism, Nietzsche was more in line with a specific German tradition of thought than any of the "classical" German philosophers. His thinking was the most extreme, albeit somewhat paradox, expression of the deeply anti-liberal and anti-humanitarian environment and tradition he stems from. The "last unpolitical German" who he claimed himself to be - who is the "last unpolitical German" if not the one who rejects Western concepts of liberty and the whole body of liberal ideas ? Nietzsche rightly considered the concept of the nation state as an essential part of the post-1789 liberal tradition.
Does the fact that Emerson was strongly influenced by German philosophy make him any less of an American thinker ? Nietzsche almost always spoke ill of Americans ("airheads") and of Anglo-Saxons in general ("cows, women and Englishmen"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.230.157 ( talk) 16:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
At 1143 hours on 2008-08-01 an editor suggested in an edit-summary of an edit to the article that an "opening line should directly identify the subject: x is a y". I've encountered this sort of prescription before -- without ever seeing an accepted Wikipedia policy or guideline on the matter. Do we know of such a prescription? -- Pedant17 ( talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it's important to include Nietzsche's repudiation of egalitarian ideas (besides Christianity) like Democracy, Socialism, so I changed the introduction a little bit. BTW: It's hard to understand why Nietzsche's radical and antifeministic positions on womans were ignored in this article. They are at least as important as his views on democracy and socialism.-- D.H ( talk) 18:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This section was tagged as WP:OR in February of 2008—but the user left no discussion on the talk page. My opinion? : the content is not WP:OR - but the tone in which it is written makes it sound like it is. As we all know there are many, varied interpretations of Nietzsche's thought and this style of writing comes off as too dogmatic. I want this tag gone. I'm thinking of doing a re-write with a less aggressive tone—thinking this is enough. Is it? ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 19:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've begun the restructuring discussed above and would like to ask Picatrix & D.H if they would sort of follow along behind me and make sure nothing gets lost by falling between the cracks—six eyes being better than two. I'd also like to invite anyone to let me know if they think I've missed something or gone awry in any way. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. We now have works organized in a much better way. Thanks for doing the significant work necessary. We now have Biography as a main section with subheadings. I wonder if "will to power", "morality" and the rest should be organized similarly under philosophy? I suspect you may already be thinking this way, based on what you wrote above about expanding core philosophical themes. This would give us a very simple overall structure for the article. I am not suggesting that these sections get moved to separate pages the way that the works were, rather that they become numbered subheadings like 2.3 or 2.4, instead of 3,4,5, etc. Thoughts? -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and used your idea Picatrix, moving the individual topics under the Philosophy head. This is just a first step to make it easier to look at and think about. I've been reconsidering though whether expanding on these is a good idea. This is a general introduction article and the focus of this section should probably remain just that: introductory. Telescoping them might be a better approach and then move our energy over to Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche and re-editing/expanding the core themes there. As D.H mentioned above, the latter article needs much work also. Take a look at the Søren Kierkegaard article. I think it a good model. There the Thought section is relatively small (with the {{main}} link of course to the full version) in comparison to the biographical detail which is interspersed with looks at how his ideas evolved. Let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 01:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Are there any guidelines for whether someone should be included as influenced by Nietzsche? Mention has been made of whether or not the supposedly influenced person has been mentioned in the article, but Kafka and Gibran are included and are not mentioned in the article. RJC has often brought up the fact that the person in the influenced list should be a "philosopher" (and I'm not really sure just what that means). Gibran might be considered a philosopher, but Kafka and Yeats seem like writers and poets to me. Not that a writer or poet cannot be a philosopher, but I'm not seeing a consistent standard here. I ask because a user is trying to place Kundera in the influenced list. Currently there is no mention of Kundera in the article, Kundera would seem not to be a philosopher in any strict sense, and there is no citation for the claim of Nietzsche's influence in the Kundera article itself. I have removed the Kundera addition because there is no citation. But guidelines need to be established here by consensus or reference to editorial standards. Can anyone offer me guidance as regards this issue? -- Picatrix ( talk) 14:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
My own opinion is that this sounds like a very good approach. If this sort of standard is applied, writers like Camus or Mann definitely belong in the "influenced" list. Probably Mencken as well... But London, Kafka, Gibran, Kesey and Yeats really don't strike me as appropriate. Summarizing the input thus far it seems that for inclusion in the "influenced" list:
1. A 'philosophical' context is preferred, but not required.
2. Citable mention of the influenced individual in the context of Nietzsche studies is required.
3. In keeping with #2, mention of Nietzsche's influence upon the individual in question in the context of studies pertaining to that individual is not in itself sufficient to guarantee mention; these candidates for inclusion will be decided on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus and established Wikipedia guidelines.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems like the consensus then is the following: in the philosophers infobox we will limit the "influenced" list strictly to philosophers. "Infuenced by" will have a broader set of inclusion criteria to include those who had a significant impact on N's thought. If this is so we should ask Picatrix to go ahead and prune the "influenced" list per her proposal above. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 15:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and made the edit. Please check my work. There were some close calls and some notability issues seemed to rear up once the list was pruned to a more viewable size. Nothing is fixed in stone. Consider this a first cut. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 00:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the following suggestion has been considered before, but perhaps the two titles could be changed to reflect the above consensus (as to what the titles mean), i.e. each of the following:
The pros of the change would include:
The cons might include:
I'll add mention of the clarified meanings of the two titles, as hidden text visible only to those who edit. (I'll make the additions in due course, unless there's mention of good reason to the contrary). Bo99 ( talk) 01:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
It is disputed whether Nietzsche died of brain cancer, dementia, pneumonia, stroke/cerebrovascular disease, syphilis, or a combination of two or more of those. Was there never a death certificate issued, or has it been lost/destroyed? Was there a post-mortem? Is there no official documentation regarding what he died of? Werdnawerdna ( talk) 23:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the section entitled 'Nietzsche's letters to his sister' be removed. My justifications and suggestions follow:
1. A section title should reflect the content of that section. In this section, the following content is related to the correspondence between Nietzsche and his sister:
"Friedrich Nietzsche wrote many letters to his sister, Elisabeth, throughout his lifetime. [...] (who had written to his sister about the absurdity of the idea) [...] In a letter from Nietzsche to Elisabeth, he warns her 'not to be misled by any friendly—and in this case dangerous—inquisitiveness, into reading the books that I am about to publish now'."
The following has nothing to do with their correspondence:
"Nietzsche's sister was closely affiliated with the anti-Semitic movement in Germany during the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.[66] In the 1880s, Elisabeth (who was, from early on, a believer in a superior Aryan race) married Bernhard Förster, an anti-Semitic activist. The two proceeded to establish an Aryan colony in Paraguay, which they called Nueva Germania.[67] This project did not go well, and Nietzsche [...] was not surprised.[68] [69] Despite such warnings, Nietzsche's sister distorted his meanings to support her ideas.[70] After Nietzsche's mental collapse, Elisabeth took control of his published and unpublished works, editing as she pleased and frequently misinterpreting him—though whether this was by accident or design is not always clear. After Nietzsche’s death she went even further to reword, and, in some cases, rewrite some of his works. Later, she supported the Nazi regime and tried to integrate Nietzsche's work with Nazi ideology."
This section title does not reflect the preponderance of the content the section contains. It's not about 'letters'.
2. This section is positioned arbitrarily in the overall article. It's stuck onto the end as a sort of afterthought.
3. The section title is already misleading simply because it doesn't accurately reflect the content of the section, as noted. However, it is also misleading in the sense that it suggests that this section will address the (apocryphal?) collection of 'Nietzsche's' letters to his sister.
4. This section is redundant. Most of the information it contains is contained in preceding sections. The one or two non-redundant pieces of information it contains can easily be incorporated into existing text sections. Hence:
Suggestion: remove the unnecessary section and incorporate the items of non-redundant information it contains into existing text. -- Picatrix ( talk) 15:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
CABlankenship has recently added material to the article that is not, in my opinion, an improvement. Because of the work done to the article over the past months (particularly the streamlining of the Philosophy section) the ponderousness of the content has been reduced a bit and it is more streamlined. However:
1. Prior to CABlankenship's recent additions we had no large block quotes by authors other than Nietzsche himself. Substantial quotes regarding Nietzsche, from other authors, have accumulated instead in the sub-articles associated with this primary article. This allows us to keep this article short enough to fit the description of an encyclopedia article, while allowing interested parties to dig deeper in sub pages or in citations. These recent edits add significant length, and one is forced to ask: to what end? Again, the reader will note that other than these recent additions, there are no other large block quotes by other authors currently included. This was not an editorial accident, but the result of consideration by contributing editors of the needs an encyclopedia article should attempt to balance and meet.
2. All three postings cast Nietzsche in a negative light. This too, would seem to be something less than an editorial accident, though driven, perhaps, by less neutral motives, assumptions of good faith notwithstanding.
3. In each case where one of these blockquotes on Nietzsche has been included, one could just as easily add a number of blockquotes from other authors with other opinions. This is an encyclopedia article, not a mediaeval manuscript, and so one wonders what end would be served by collating successive layers of commentary akin to marginalia. If there is any value to these additions (and I do not personally feel there is) the general reader would be better served by short summary sentences.
4. I previously removed the redundant Russell blockquote, though I Ieft it on the "Influence and Reception" sub-page where it was more appropriate (while correcting errors and adding the missing citation details). CABlankenship promptly replaced it here, with no explanation or justification. Whence comes this desire to repeatedly broadcast Bertrand Russell's opinions regarding Nietzsche? Surely once is enough? If not, why?
5. Prior to these additions, all sub-sections under the heading "Philosophy" in this article were related to recognized and much-discussed components of N's philosophy. While a case could be made for adding a section on Nietzsche's attitudes towards 'Evolution' I cannot understand on what basis a section on Nietzsche's 'philosophy of women' might proceed. I am aware of no Nietzsche 'philosophy of women'. Nietzsche might have had attitudes towards women which he expressed in his writing, but adding such a sub-section under the philosophy heading, next to recognized themes like "Eternal Return" and "The Overman" seems to be quite a stretch. "On Women" is basically a section on what Bertrand Russell thinks of Nietzsche's occasional remarks about women. "On Evolution" is basically a section on what Dan Dennett happens to think about Nietzsche's understanding of 'Evolution'. These are sub-optimal contributions.
My own feeling is that these sections are something less than the best use of space. Can any other editors offer suggestions? -- Picatrix ( talk) 00:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I also must point out the attempt to downplay the extent of Nietzsche's fixation with degrading women. I have my copies of Kaufmann's "Portable Nietzsche" and "The Will to Power" here with me, and the truth is, it's difficult to flip through either without stumbling across one of Nietzsche's rants about women. Let's go into more detail.
"Thus Spoke Zarathustra: First Part", p.166-167, Portable Nietzsche (a small sample of a long rant about women): "[T]he bitch...leers enviously out of everything they do...And how nicely the bitch...knows how to beg for a piece of spirit when denied a piece of meat."
Nietzsche then rants a bit about the grandeur of war before picking up again on the subject of women on page 169: "Therefore woman is not yet capable of friendship," "Woman's love involves injustice and blindness against everything that she does not love...Woman is not yet capable of friendship: women are still cats and birds. Or at best cows."
After a bit more discourse about the greatness of manly loyalty and conquest, Nietzsche simply cannot resist another diatribe against women again on page 177-179: "[E]verything about woman has one solution: pregnancy...Man should be educated for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly...Let woman be a plaything...The happiness of man is: I will. The happiness of wman is: he wills...You are going to woman? Do not forget the whip! Thus spoke Zarathustra."
I suppose these are the "occasional" remarks to which you refer? Unfortunately, these "occasional" remarks just keep coming. It's almost like he can't resist, page 239: "And because we know so little, the poor in spirit please us heartily, particularly when they are young females"
His philosophy is endlessly bigoted in this fashion. P.73 (notes 1880-81) contains a rather vile discussion on why it is proper for women to be obedient.
P.468 (Twilight of the Idols) "Man has created woman--out of what? Out of a rib of his god--of his 'ideal'" "Among women: 'Truth? Oh, you don't know truth!" p.469 "The perfect woman perpetuates literature as she perpetuates sin: as an experiment, in passing, looking around to see if anybody notices it--and to make sure that somebody does." p.470 "Women are considered profound. Why? Because one never fathoms their depths. Women aren't even shallow" "If a woman has manly virtues, one feels like running away; and if she has no manly virtues, she herself runs away."
I could go on and on. As Russell said, Nietzsche "never tires" of such insults. "Occasional"? Clearly, Nietzsche devoted considerable time and effort to such musings, as they are peppered throughout all of his works. It is, in fact, difficult to flip through his work without finding such quotes. "The Will to Power" alone contains no less than 23 sections devoted to women, all of them negative. These are sections 91, 94, 95, 119, 145, 182, 196, 268, 377, 732, 777, 806, 807, 811, 817, 824, 838, 842, 864, 865, 894, 934, and 1009. Occasional?
Perhaps you feel that a section written by an amateur would be superior and preferable to a section written by one of the 20th centuries greatest philosophers and scholars. I can't agree, however. I believe the Russell block should stand, and the section should be expanded, if anything.
Or perhaps you feel that it's simply not worth a serious mention, despite the fact that one of our greatest scholars considered it an important aspect of his philosophy? Again, I can't concur. CABlankenship ( talk) 01:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the recent edits are, in my opinion, patently inane: "they recognize that however odious his individual opinion of women may have been, he was not advocating it as a model for others" which suggests in no uncertain terms that this is the 'proper' way to view Nietzsche's comments. I don't see any reason at all to believe that he was not advocating it as a model for others, in fact, the opposite surely seems to be the case.
Regardless, I'm fine with the edit as it stands, although I think Pictrix's bias shines through his attempt to be neutral. It's clear from the edit where his sympathies lie. CABlankenship ( talk) 01:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the words of support! I hear there's lots of work remaining to be done on 'hard' scientific articles here at Wikipedia. Biology and whatnot. I'm sure you've got a lot to contribute in that field. Good luck! -- Picatrix ( talk) 01:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks in return! I'm pretty new to wiki and haven't learned all of the formatting procedures, but with the help of scholars like yourself perhaps I can find something of value to contribute. I must however admit that postmodernist philosophy is not my particular taste, and without your learning I would have been unaware of their defense of Nietzsche's comments on women. Who knew he was actually a feminist? Thanks Derrida! What a genius. CABlankenship ( talk) 03:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
In regards to this edit [1]:
You're making a subjective judgment based on what you consider to be part of his philosophy. Many people, including respected scholars and philosophers, consider Nietzsche's apparent bigotry to be an important fact for understanding his overall world-view and philosophy. It's also surely relevant that Nietzsche had a very confused understanding of evolution, particularly since we can hopefully all agree that it was a dominant theme throughout TSZ, at least. Much of TSZ is very near evolutionary philosophy, and this aspect should be discussed. While it's certainly true that my original topics were one-sided (I admitted that I don't like Nietzsche), I felt that these were important issues that deserved front-page attention.
Deleting the material -- which was soundly researched, relevant, and interesting -- is somewhat petulant. It's clear that the three of us have different opinions on the best stylistic design for a page. It's an artistic dispute, perhaps?
Several times now, the argument has been made that Nietzsche's comments on women do not constitute a part of his philosophy. Obviously, reasonable people can differ on this point. Russell seemed to think it right to include these comments in his summary of Nietzsche's philosophy, which surely carries enough weight and authority to grant it access to a wiki section on the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship ( talk • contribs) 02:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I should also add that philosophy is merely a casual interest of mine -- mostly as it relates to biology -- so you will have to assume that professional remarks such as "These subjects form no part of N.' core philosophy" will probably escape my layman knowledge. You will have to expand on these (I'm sure) highly technical points. CABlankenship ( talk) 02:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
For my part, I feel we're getting somewhere. The edits are an improvement. I should also clarify: my dissatisfaction is with the 'Nietzsche on women' going in the philosophy section on the main page. As I stated at the beginning I feel a case can easily be made for discussion of 'Evolution' in relation to Nietzsche's thought. This, in my opinion, deserves attention. I'm going to break my remarks up into two sections below. Before doing so, I'd like to clarify further my problems with your initial edits; hopefully once and for all. I do this only in the interests of setting a foundation for constructive editorial collaboration. What I find so irritating about your initial edits is that they conveyed to me a sense of someone who was 'more sure than right' coming to share a dubious certainty with benighted dimwits. I've done this myself a number of times, and hence feel qualified to recognize it. Second, my own editorial attitude is that one must suspend disbelief to a certain degree when trying to determine the best editorial course. This is why in my discussion (as in the 'German' question on the talk page for this article) I often go back and forth, and I am willing to abandon positions I find are no longer sustainable. I'm happy to admit when I am wrong - it's only necessary that I see it. Most people claim to take this approach, in my experience few actually do. Whether you will credit it or not, I myself feel that Nietzsche's was capable of great intentional subtlety and was inclined to scatter ambiguity like mines. As a result, I tend to regard any editorial approach to his work that fails to take this into account as counterproductive 'noise'. Nietzsche's ambiguity is exacerbated by an intentional and highly provocative style. Bear this in mind while also remembering we are dealing with a man who made the study of where concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' come from the focus of his work. I hope you will recognize the implications of this for anyone who wants to stroll in and take shocking statements at face value, or apply categories such as 'right' and 'wrong' to Nietzsche's work. If one really wants to fiddle about with Nietzsche you have to approach him with an open mind. In my opinion, anyone who is not willing to do so isn't really here to help.
1. Nietzsche and women. I actually looked at the secondary literature. While you posted a citation that suggests Nietzsche was a basically an asshole who had serious problems with women, I cited material that shows a whole range of opinions. There really is a range of opinions. Though you sneer and cry "Derrida"!, they deserve serious attention. After looking over the way in which male and female, active and passive - metaphors - can be mapped to other life-affirming and life-denying metaphors, and thinking about Nietzsche's reiteration of themes related to men and war (killing) and women and pregnancy (giving birth) some of the citations I provided suggesting subtlety made more sense. There is absolutely no shortage of citations suggesting that women play a role in his philosophy. But this is not the same thing as a philosophy of women. I think the main article could benefit from a brief and summary discussion of citable ideas about the role of women in his thought, perhaps linking to a secondary page. But I think only by doing the necessary work can we determine where that would go (under his philosophy, biography, etc.). You and Bertrand Russell feel he was an asshole because he said mean things about the ladies. For my part I think he said mean things about everyone (with an end in mind). By my lights misogyny is trumped by misanthropy. It's hard to say Nietzsche had problems with women in the face of the fact that he had problems with everyone. If, for example, I hate men and women equally can I be said to be a misogynist? We would have to gather together citations in order to see where the preponderance of citable, verifiable opinion lies, then weight a summary paragraph accordingly, and link to whatever sub page is appropriate. Again, women playing a role in his philosophy is not the same as him having a philosophy of women. Nietzsche discusses digestion (perhaps in a Neo-Larckian context, and with considerable significance) far, far more often than he makes arguably derisive remarks about women. And yet no one has suggested we add a summary paragraph on digestion in the philosophy section. If you argue notability and point out that no one is pissed off about digestion, while people are pissed off about 'misogyny' then again the material has no place in the philosophy section, and instead belongs in the 'influence and reception' article because its notability is based on the reaction it caused.
2. Nietzsche and biology (or 'Evolution'). I think this subject really does deserve attention, and a lot of it. However, in its current form the section on Nietzsche and 'evolution' seems to me based on an editorial policy that cannot be supported. I would support a discussion of Nietzsche's 'biological' thinking (and there is a lot of it) contextualized and explicated in the light of what we know today about phylogenesis. I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s. Furthermore, if we are going to dig into this subject it is necessary to clarify a number of issues for the general reader. 'Evolution' in the sense of verifiable, consecutive changes to life over time in response to environmental factors, and the interrelationship of all life on this basis, is not questioned by serious scientists. I've read nothing that suggests Nietzsche questioned it (and I'm sure we can find citations and support for this). But while there are well-established probabilities, as regards exactly what environmental factors exert selective pressure, and how it is exerted, we're still dealing with real live theories - even today. In this respect there still are no 'truths' so thoroughly tested and verified that the possibility of their being called into question does not exist. And, so far as I know, it was in this area of 'the question' that Nietzsche (thought he?) differed from Darwin. I've been gathering citations. I don't want to be 'more sure than right'. As you are a biologist I would be very pleased indeed to have your help in putting together material that relates to Nietzsche and biology. I would even like to see a whole article on just this. But, as far as my vote is concerned, writing up half-assed 'Nietzsche was wrong' paragraphs is a non-starter. The current version that's up says (more-or-less) 'Nietzsche's thinking on biology was out of step and wrong' with a couple of transparent 'neutrality patches'. Can you not see that this is entirely unjustifiable without first describing, from an informed position, just what he thought and how it differed from what is today 'accepted'? Can you not see how partisan (and stupid) these edits appear in the absence of support? The reader should be permitted to make up his or her mind based on a summary of Nietzsche's thought, in a citable, verifiable and neutral context. What were his thoughts on biology? Can you offer me more citations than a regurgitation of Dennett? For my part I'll offer a few that I've dug up:
(John Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism, Oxford University Press, 2004) Richardson argues that Nietzsche was "deeply and pervasively influenced by Darwin", and that some of his ideas have "a clearer and stronger sense when set on the scientific ground he takes from Darwin."
(Jean Gayon, "Nietzsche and Darwin", in Biology and the Foundation of Ethics, Jane Maienschein, Michael Ruse (Eds.), Cambridge University Press, 1999) p160: "Before we turn to [Nietzsche's] criticisms specifically directed at Darwin, we must deal with the embarrassing issue of whether or not Nietzsche ever read Darwin. In spite of a number of studies on this subject, there is no definitive answer. It is certain that Nietzsche read "A Biographical Sketch of an Infant" (Darwin 1877), because he recommended it warmly to Paul Ree in a letter dated 1877, with a precise reference to Mind. But there is no direct evidence that he actually read even one book by Darwin. He never cited a precise quotation or reference, although that was his common pattern regarding almost all authors. It is likely that he consulted The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, for Richter (1911) mentions some sentences that could hardly have come from anywhere else. It also seems hardly possible that he never read The Descent of Man, in view of his repeated criticisms of the Darwinian theory of the origins of moral behavior. As for The Origin of Species, I tend to believe that Nietzsche did not seriously read that work, but again, direct evidence is lacking. In fact, Nietzsche's knowledge of Darwin's ideas relied essentially, if not exclusively, on German accounts and/or criticisms."
(George J. Stack, Lange and Nietzsche, Walter de Gruyter, 1983) p156: "The relation between Nietzsche and Darwin is a curious and complex one. Probably the earliest contact that Nietzsche had with the then new and revolutionary theory of evolution was in reading Lange's critical discussion of Darwinismus und Teleologie. In this discussion Lange is clearly sympathetic with the essentials of Darwin's theory and accepts without quarrel its anti-teleological consequences. As we shall see, Nietzsche adopted a Darwinian understanding of Man's place in nature, his descent from animal forms, his use of tools for defence (reason) and the employment of "dissimulation" for the sake of survival. To be sure, he does not by any means end in a Darwinian standpoint nor does he agree with Darwin that adaptation for the sake of survival alone is the essential characteristic of living beings. In this regard he is justified in mocking the idea that he is a follower of Darwin in Ecce Homo. Nonetheless, there are a number fundamental notions that are retained in Nietzsche's philosophy that are at least related to Darwinian theory."
(F. Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, (trans. by Thomas Common) Courier Dover Publications, 1999) p258: "to understand his position correctly we must show his relationship to the two greatest of modern evolutionists - Darwin and Spencer. As a philosopher, however Nietzsche does not stand or fall by his objections to the Darwinian or Spencerian cosmogony. He never laid claim to a very profound knowledge of biology, and his criticism is far more valuable as the attitude of a fresh mind than as that of a specialist towards the question. Moreover, in his objections many difficulties are raised which are not settled by an appeal to either of the men above mentioned."
(Dan Stone, Breeding Superman: Nietzsche, Race and Eugenics in Edwardian and Interwar Britain, Liverpool University Press, 2002) - Discussing Mügge's work on Nietzsche (M.A. Mügge 1909) p74: "The issue of consciousness in selection was in fact the thing that Nietzsche believed differentiated his idea of evolution from Darwin's. Neitzsche thought that the ideas of 'natrual selection' and the 'survival of the fittest' were too random to be relied upon, if one was interested in human progress. For otherwise 'the fittest' could easily be the herd, whose safety in numbers secures their propagation. In fact, Mügge was perspicacious in recognizing so early on in the history of Darwinism that Nietzsche's ideas are actually closer to Darwin's than he (Nietzsche) thought, and that the Darwin that Nietzsche attacked was more a popularly received Darwin than the ideas of Darwin himself. Mügge's view, that Nietzsche and Darwin were actually rather close, is one that has been recently confirmed." (He cites here Keith Ansell-Pearson, Viroid Life: Perspectives on Nietzsche and the Transhuman Condition, London, Routledge, 1997, p87) -- Picatrix ( talk) 16:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Picatrix: Please examine how we came to a general consensus on the issue of Nietzsche and woman. I gathered a few facts and some Russell and posted it. You came in with a superior edit which I then allowed to stand, with a few minor reservations. I have not quibbled with or contested your edits on this matter at all. We now seem to be in a purely semantical dispute over whether or not it is a part of his philosophy. That this subject belonged in the philosophy section was not controversial until I added a section on the front page. This is question-begging, and leads me to wonder if we are more concerned with providing information, or with marginalizing unpleasant aspects of Nietzsche.
Please consider that if we look at post-enlightenment philosophy, Nietzsche is easily the most misogynistic great intellectual. Only Schopenhauer comes close to challenging him on this claim, but he ranks a distant second in both frequency and vehemence. To find a challenge to Nietzsche in this regard, we can only turn to Islamic, Ancient Hebrew, and Christian philosophy. This is a very noteworthy fact. Regardless, our only dispute now seems to be whether or not there should be a link about this on the front page in the philosophy section. Surely your fine entry dealing with how we might interpret Nietzsche's comments on women constitutes a mostly philosophical discussion. If this is not part of Nietzsche's 'philosophy' it's surely not part of his 'influence and reception' (whatever we might think that means). And if his comments on women were not present in his philosophy, I'm at a loss as to how we might classify them.
Nietzsche's views on evolution simply cannot be understood unless we have a fundamental grasp of several facts.
1) Like every pre-mendelian thinker, he was unaware of the proper unit and means of heredity. The error of assuming Lamarckian inheritance was common until the 20th century.
2) Nietzsche, Darwin, &c, were unaware of the correct age of the earth. Darwin was operating under the assumption that it was several hundred-million years old; we can only guess that Nietzsche accepted this view, as the truth was not known until many years after their deaths. The foremost authority on this subject, Kelvin, actually proclaimed the earth to be only 100 million years old.
These two facts cast doubt during Darwin's time and until the relatively recent present on whether or not Natural Selection could serve as the primary means of explaining the vast variation of species that we see today. Natural Selection is a necessarily slow-moving process by theory and action, and so it was wondered if there was really enough time for Darwin's theory to be a true factor.
In discussing Nietzsche's philosophy on evolution, it's certainly relevant to discuss whether or not he was correct. The fact remains, Nietzsche based his theories on highly flawed and now completely disproved pre-suppositions. The entire backbone of his ideas on how we might create an overman are not simply subjectively wrong, they are objectively wrong. It is not a violation of neutrality to discuss this matter in an article about Nietzsche and his foray into the subject of biology. I seriously wonder if would gain such resistance in an article whose subject was not a hero of the postmodern movement; notorious for its relativistic challenges on rational inquiry and the scientific method.
While it shouldn't matter that Nietzsche himself loudly condemned the notion that he was a Darwinist (since he really didn't understand Darwin at all, so could have been wrong), he most certainly did not qualify as a true Darwinist. His finest comments that agree with modern science are respectfully added to my entry. Nevertheless, I believe it's impossible to understand Nietzsche's position on biology without pointing out his errors. Likewise, an article that discusses purely Nietzsche's opinions does nothing to instruct the layman reader as to whether he was right or wrong. Again, this is not a matter for postmodern relativism, it's simple science. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
John Richardson is a professor of philosophy, but unlike Dennett he speaks with no authority on the subject of biology. This is an obscure source which seems unnecessary.
Jean Gayon is more noteable, but he fundamentally agrees with the position both of myself and Dennett. That is: Nietzsche was ignorant of Darwin. I have no objection to additions from this source.
George Stack is another philosophy professor well-known for his academic work on Nietzsche. Nevertheless, he speaks with zero authority on biology, and we are best to ignore his efforts in this regard. As John Maynard Smith once said "As a biologist, I'm used to being misunderstood by philosophers."
The Thomas Common introduction is telling: he clearly realizes that Nietzsche was simply wrong about biology, and so he encourages us to ignore this error. While he is correct that neither Darwin nor Spencer had the knowledge to refute Nietzsche's claims on biology, we happily have modern science which has thoroughly discredited Nietzsche's views. I see no value in adding this opinion and apologetics.
Dan Stone is correct. Nietzsche did misunderstand Darwin and actually did agree with him on several points where he falsely believed he had disagreement. This fact is already brought to light in my current article. However, on several points (but not all) where Darwin and Nietzsche agreed, both happened to be wrong and were dealing with false assumptions.
My article on this subject already details where Nietzsche agreed with Darwin (and was correct), where he disagreed with Darwin (and was wrong), and where he agreed with Darwin and both men were wrong. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I can only say that you have obviously failed to read my sources on the biology section. Your statement that I have not produced any sources other than your own is odd, considering I only used your sources in support of my own (Darwin, Dennett, and Kaufmann), with additional links to the direct Nietzsche quotes in discussion, including page numbers. Exact page numbers are given for all sources, for you to verify at your leisure. I was hoping that we could increase the civility of this work, but it's now clear that having gotten off on the wrong foot, you are determined to stay there with your misrepresentations and obfuscations.
On the matter of Nietzsche and women, I point out that you wrote the article. You continue to harp on issues where I have long since conceded the point. "With growing frustration", I notice that you are more interested in personal attacks than in improving this article. I will now address a few of your points on biology.
1)"As I am not a biologist, and therefore, according to you, I have nothing to say on the matter" -- To the contrary, I never said "you have nothing to say on the matter", I unequivocally said the opposite. What I did say was that a few of your sources were of lesser value and authority, and that their erroneous opinions on Nietzsche are easily refuted by careful study of my source material, including that from Kaufmann, Nietzsche himself, and Dennett. Pages were given so that you may read these sources for yourself. I will explain them if you wish, but if you do not understand these issues and will not read the sources, perhaps you should retire from the biology section of this article and await someone with a superior understanding of these issues.
2)"I emphasize if, there is any basis for your confident assertion that Nietzsche offered 'wholesale support for Lamarck's doctrine'" -- This is unambiguously true, as backed up by my sources listed at the end of my paragraph. I would be hesitant to point out your "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche on this completely objective point had you only not been so eager to throw this accusation at myself over the subjective matter of Nietzsche's views on women. Only someone who lacked anything even remotely resembling an understanding of the scholarship on the issue of Nietzsche and Biology would not be aware of this point. See Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293 -- Dan Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p.182, 461-467 -- Nietzsche, The Will to Power, s.647-649, 684-686 -- Nietzsche, The Gay Science s.99 -- John Richardson, "Nietzsche's New Darwinism", p.16-18.
In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293
This source is given in my refs at the end of the paragraph.
3)"what then of those who have asserted in recent times that aspects of Lamarck's model probably did (and do) have scientific merit and hence have not been 'proven false'." The idea of a transfer of 'memes' is somewhat Lamarkian, but it has nothing to do with biological inheritance. The idea of acquired traits being heritable by off-spring is completely disproved. One of the more stunning examples of this was the Lysenko debacle: Lysenkoism
4)"Epigenetic inheritance, whatever its significance, would appear to suggest that the door has not been shut upon Lamarck so firmly as you suggest." -- Epigenetic inheritance in Eukaryote cells has no bearing on the question of heritable traits in sexual organisms. Nothing in epigenetics has anything to do with acquired traits such as the ones proposed by Nietzsche. While there is some use in using Lamarckism as a sort of metaphor for memes, this has nothing to do with Nietzsche's position, or the position of other pre-20th century Lamarckists. CABlankenship ( talk) 10:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Further replies to Pictrix's:
Pictrix quoted in italics.
2. Suggesting that Nietzsche was a misogynist of such monstrous dimensions that he can only be compared to "Islamic, Ancient Hebrew or Christian philosophy" not only suggests a fundamental ignorance of Nietzsche's thought, it also shows clearly how your editorial approach is riddled with retrospective value judgments that take no account of historical context. For example, in the cultural sphere in question, with the emergence of Islam, women for the first time were recognized as having legal rights like the ability to initiate a divorce on their own, as well as recognition of property rights and inheritance. I should also point out that you might find other people are less than satisfied with your regular use of the term 'philosophy' in the broadest possible context (e.g. 'attitude', 'assumption', 'religious belief', 'personal feeling'). It makes it difficult to establish shared definition: a critical feature of collaboration. Again, not just a "semantical dispute'.
The suggestion you mention was not a part of my editorials. It was part of this discussion page, offered up for your consideration in making my point. How this reflects on my alleged editorial "retrospective value judgements" is beyond me, as this was never present in my section pieces.
4. Please actually read what has been written. No one has said that Nietzsche's comments about women were not to be found in his philosophical writings. The point instead hinged on whether he had a 'philosophy of women'. I refer you again, with growing frustration, to my mention of the theme of 'digestion'.
Indeed, "with growing frustration", I note that while I am willing to consider and compromise on the issue of placement, you are not. You have yet to respond to my opinion that sections on Nietzsche's writings are misplaced in the "influence and reception" section.
6. As for your latest edits, I'm forced to ask how it is that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin if he had not read him. I also feel obliged to point out (again with a growing sense of frustration) that once again your entry fails to discuss what Nietzsche thought, and instead offers up a trite list of unsupported statements without citation, except for a rather free use of the ones I provided together with your original Dennett, which you seem to feel is sacred and inviolable, and sufficient to establish consensus across the globe. However, I should point out that you went far, far further as an editor than any of those sources allows, without adding any new ones of your own. Please re-read my previous remarks above, wherein I underlined that "I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s." I find the fact that you have been thumping the same two books with zeal to be disconcerting and indicative of a lack of sophistication in your editorial approach. No one said you could not use Dennett or Russell as sources, it has simply been pointed out that you have to balance and contextualize these citations and put your additions in the right places.
Why would having not read an author prevent Nietzsche from misunderstanding him? Surely being unfamiliar with someones direct work would encourage such misunderstandings, and such misunderstandings are transparently documented in my sources. While you are correct that there is some controversy (mostly from creationists) regarding evolution, the scientific consensus on this score is well-known. You are making very little effort to increase your understanding of these issues to the level even of the educated layman on biology and Nietzsche. I must say that these confusions on your part speak to a large degree on the irony of your accusation that I show a "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche. CABlankenship ( talk) 11:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Notice also that while I initially was dubious of your citation of John Richardson's Nietzsche's New Darwinism (where you quoted a review of the book -- you clearly have not read it yourself), I did something that seems alien to you: I read your source. I went out and bought the book, and I'm now reading it. As you can see, I'm now sourcing him in support of my pre-existing citations. Small sample on the points of agreement between all of my sources, including Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 :
Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.
These points have also been sourced (and posted) with agreement from Dan Dennett, Kaufmann, and my other refs. Dispute of my entry has not been, up to this point, at all reasonable or informed. CABlankenship ( talk) 14:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
In recent years it has become known that Friedrich Nietzsche for a periode of his life used a typewriter. In 1882 he bought a so called Hansen Writing Ball from the Danish inventor, Rasmus Malling-Hansen. On several websites on the internet one can read about Nietzsche and his writing ball, that still exists. A German, Dieter Eberwein, has restored and repaired Nietzsche's old typewriter, and has written a book about the machine and published the appr. 60 typescripts that are known to exist. See here: [www.eberwein-typoskriptverlag.de]
Wouldn't it be of interest to the readers of wikipedia to read about this incident in Nietzsche's life? As I have read, Nietzsche himself claimed that the use of a typewriter influenced on his way of expressing himself. I hope I can be allowed to write a little text about Nietzsche and his typewriter.
-- Sverre avnskog ( talk) 16:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Nietzsche simply viewed women as secondary--even saying they have "an instinct for the secondary". What this means is that while Woman does play a very important role in the development of Man into the Superman, Woman herself has no goal other than to help man achieve his goal--a compass, in and of itself, has no purpose except to help someone find their way. Therefore, his argument against feminism was very similiar to his argument against Christianity--that it is a hinderance to the instinctual drives of man and an obstacle in the way of Man becoming Superman.
"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an OVER-GOING and a DOWN-GOING."
In the course of this 'over-going' and 'down-going' women act as a sort of compass. The closer a man is to being the Superman, the more attractive women will find him and the more control he will possess of both females and his own feminity. See: Malakia.
I'd like to add that it doesn't surprise me in the least that CABlankenship is a man--I would be very, very suprised to read a woman making the same arguments.
I think the time has come to discuss what this editing community should be doing about User:CABlankenship and his admitted negative intentions here. Although his behavior smacks of being a troll, I have no definitive proof of this. With my lack of experience in wiki-politics, I frankly have no idea of the what, when and hows of procedure. Yet, as the discussions above show, he is a tendentious editor intent on pursuing a strict agenda: discrediting Nietzsche. On this page he assumes bad faith and adopts a sarcastic and condescending tone, totally unconducive to constructive dialog. I know Picatrix has especially tried to engage him in lengthy discussions which have proved unfruitful.
In my opinion he needs recuse himself from editing here. Barring that I think we need to take some kind of action. Please speak up and let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 17:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. A student of biology, using a source like Richardson only when it comes to biology while writing on Nietzsche? At most times relying on Russell? That's, obviously, in now way good faith. Why on earth is he claiming to watch philosophy students come to a misunderstanding of Nietzsche? A biology student knows Nietzsche well and philosophers don't? Russell as an expert on Nietzsche? Women are a major part of Nietzsche's philosophy? This is utter rubbish. Someone at Wikipedia needs to step in here, clearly. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HAL0002000 (
talk •
contribs)
11:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Your ad hominem attacks don't bother me Mr. Blankenship but do offer a lively example of the kind of tendentious editor traits I alluded to above. Our problem is not with your sources but with your lack of providing a balanced view per: WP:NPOV. Your research method appears to consist of searching out negative critiques and aggregating them together, not granting what's due to the opposing side. I am not going to engage in long extensive debates with you over these things because, since I suspect you are a troll, that would be exactly what you want me to do—of little value either to me or the others here. You really need to recuse yourself but, because I think that unlikely, I have asked others to give us their feedback. Meanwhile, you may flame away. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 18:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sections in question as unbalanced. I am asking for support to avoid the 3RR rule. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 19:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
You have yet to provide a single source, citation, or reason for why my citations are not balanced. You insist that the section is not fair, but refuse to explain why. How am I to proceed against such a thing? Am I merely left to ponder what your objections might mean? CABlankenship ( talk) 19:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have to agreed on CABlanenship as a problem. Just the fact that he openly, and quite proudly actually, relies on Russell when writing an article on Nietzsche is highly suspect. Brushing aside the work of Tille in favor of Russell, on Nietzsche? There is a pretty clear axe grinding case here I'd say. CABlankenship's positions have been dealt with quite well, and it's somewhat ridiculous that he's making accusations of cultism while relying on an openly hostile source. Rutgers, Prince and NYU all leave out any work of Russell, along with other biased philosophers, in regards to Nietzsche. Check with Bruce Willshire at Rutgers, or Howard McGary at Rutgers. Try Elizabeth Harman at Princeton. Elizabeh Harman, a woman, who receieved her PhD from MIT disagrees with CABlankenship's claims on Nietzsche's thoughts and women and the importance of his writing on women. I mean damn, here email her yourself eharman@princeton.edu. Want more sources that disprove CABlankenship's positions? Try John Richardson at NYU. Look at his paper Nietzsche's Freedoms. What John Richardson of NYU is wrong about Nietzsche and CABlankenship is right?
This is somewhat silly when this person is claiming the top minds in the field are incorrect and he's correct. Wikipedia needs to just stop allowing CABlankenship grind his axe here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL0002000 ( talk • contribs) 11:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
It's clear that some people refuse to actually read my sources, and instead insist that my contributions are wrong or biased. Thus far, no reasons for rejection have been given for my impeccable sources, which include the prestigious philosopher and scientist Daniel Dennett, Nietzsche expert Walter Kaufmann, and the philosopher Richardson, who has specialized in Nietzsche research. Here are some sample citations to clear up my article, which are detailed by book and page already in my refs:
In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- 'Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293'
'Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 : Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.
-Note, Richardson is perhaps the most sympathetic of the authorities when speaking on Nietzsche and Darwin, and makes a strained attempt to argue that if Nietzsche were aware of his misunderstandings of Darwin, he might not have been as opposed to the theory. However, this is a personal opinion of Richardson, and is (as he admits) difficult to resolve with the fact that Nietzsche objected to Darwin on several critical points (such as common descent) where there was no such misunderstanding. Richardson merely speculates that Nietzsche might have changed his mind if he hadn't had such a mistaken view of Darwin and evolution. Richardson also correctly points out that on several issues where Nietzsche thought he disagreed with Darwin, they were actually in full agreement. Indeed, on several of these issues, Nietzsche goes further than Darwin. These views are represented in my paragraph.
As I noted in chapter 7, Nietzsche probably never read Darwin...Nietzsche's references to Darwin...reveal that his acquaintance with Darwin's ideas was beset with common misrepresentations and misunderstandings...On the few points of specific criticism he ventures, he gets Darwin utterly wrong, complaining, for instance, that Darwin has ignored the possibility of "unconscious selection," when that was one of Darwin's most important bridging ideas in Origin. -- 'Dennett (1995), Darwin's Dangerous Idea'
But a small sample of my mutually agreeing sources on these subjects. You are wrong to simply delete this improvement and information, when you don't know what you're talking about.
CABlankenship (
talk)
17:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I think Picatrix has a valid point on the question of the word biology in the opening section. Nietzsche was actually quite interested in biology, and even though he was certainly clearly very 'critical' of the subject, this might give a false view of the picture. Nietzsche retained a life-long passion for biology. Also, your point about providing dates for all of the sources are also valid, and I will correct this tomorrow. Other than that Pica, I don't really think you had much of an argument that I could tell. Can you explain your problems with the rest of the paragraph and sources? You only mentioned that one (valid) complaint. I should answer the rest of your various points, though.
You write as though the view we have of biology today was available to Nietzsche in the 1870s and 1880s, else how would it be possible for his understanding to be 'distorted'?
I said that "Nietzsche's view was distorted by his lamarckism". This is surely true, and comes in direct wording from my sources. Richardson: "This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology." So while you have an interesting theory, it does nothing to refute my source.
This is reflected in your belief that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin even if he has not read him. In fact he cannot. He can only misunderstand Darwin's ideas as reported by others. This is far more than a matter of semantics.
Again, this is an interesting theory, but unfortunately my sources don't agree with you. I think we would be wise to side in favor of experts like Dennett, instead of going with the opinions of any one of us. I have cited two sources in agreement on this point. Whether or not you are correct that Dennett and Richardson are "representative of the murky tendencies to half-articulation and distortion", your opinion on this matter does not override my respected sources.
I have now exhausted your substantial points of contention. The rest is mostly appeals to emotion and insults that I had hoped we could move beyond. I posted a message on your talk page specifically apologizing for losing my temper before, albeit after provocation. My offer stands. We can raise the civility of this and work together on this article in a reasonable manner. I apologize again for my uncivil behavior in previous posts. But that has nothing to do with my article now. I think everyone has a bias, surely, and I have simply admitted my points of disagreement with Nietzsche. I also have many agreements with Nietzsche, which I will be getting to soon in this work. I am trying to do balanced work. You were right to criticize my earlier efforts, but I believe that (other than your point about the word 'biology') you have failed to mount a substantive case against the veracity of my section. CABlankenship ( talk) 09:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
With a man like Nietzsche, it's very easy to come away with a bias one way or the other when reading him. Many are so dazzled by his art and prose that they cannot accept anything less than an erroneous and idealized portrait of the man, while others -- disgusted by his more crude and insulting passages -- hold him in contempt. There are few people who are generally neutral on Nietzsche. For this reason, I will stick to neutral sources of scholarship, including the almost always sober Kaufmann, and the relentlessly accurate Dennett. My own views, opinions, and work will not come into play, as this would be a violation of the 'Original Research' rules. I intend on providing balanced and informative summaries on Nietzsche, intended for the lay reader, with frank citations and sources for his triumphs, errors, and controversial writings.
I am collecting quotes from Nietzsche authors on the other subjects in the 'Various Writings' header, and would appreciate any suggestions for books on Nietzsche on these subjects. If someone else wishes to expand these sections, that would be great. Thanks, CABlankenship ( talk) 08:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Picatrix, would you mind leaving that various writings section up for me? I plan on improving all of those sections. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm dubious of any meaningful connection between Nietzsche and memes. I understand that there is some vague talk of this, and I have yet to read Richardson's chapter on this subject--though I will be doing so soon. If enough credible citations can be gathered on this subject, I believe we should add a section for Nietzsche and his insights into memetics. CABlankenship ( talk) 12:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The wording is so bizarre ("their entire racism") I have trouble believing Kaufmann wrote it. Do you have the text, CABlankenship? I was rewriting the article for clarity, but if you have the text and insist on the wording I am okay with it as long as it is put in quote marks. Kjaer ( talk) 21:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This is all in my ref. Please check my citations in the future. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You aren't answering my question. Can you look at the book and confirm that you have quoted Kaufmann correctly? The wording is so awkward, I doubt he would have said something like that. And if those were his actual words, they should be put in quote marks in the article. Kjaer ( talk) 21:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand the problem. I have quoted him correctly in my ref. Quote marks would violate the spirit of Kaufmann's quote, and would not be consistent with my ref. This would come perilously close to POV, which we cannot tolerate. Sources should be interpreted for their intended meaning, not the meanings we want to portray. That would be 'original research'. Editors must simply capture the source, not insert their own opinions into the material. Kaufmann's exact quote is given in my ref. CABlankenship ( talk) 21:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You'll also need to explain why racism needs quotation marks. How would this improve the article? CABlankenship ( talk) 22:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
How much more simple can I make it? Did you just now go take the book off your shelf and confirm that the exact words "their entire racism." are the ones on the printed page? There is no question of POV here. I assume English is your native language, so I assume you can tell how strange the phrase "their entire racism." sounds. A google search for "entire racism [full stop]" returns not one single example. One would normally say their "entire racist theory" or the like. Please simply look in the book and let me know if these are his exact words. Kjaer ( talk) 22:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
You may check the book and page listed for yourself. I have already confirmed that this was his exact quote. How would quote marks on racism improve this article or make Kaufmann's meaning more clear? CABlankenship ( talk) 22:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
My question is, did you just check the text from the source right now. It simply sounds like a possible misquote. I can verify it the next time I go to the bookstore. Until then, since you will not verify that you have just checked the text it is tagged.Kjaer ( talk) 22:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
In all seriousness, saying that something 'sounds like a misquote' is a silly reason to make such a fuss. There is no reason for you to change my article. Check the quote for yourself if you are so sure it's inaccurate, but do not change until you do. You're being silly. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I have here the book right in front of me and I can verify that Blankenship's quotation is word-for-word faithful to Kaufmann. abrhm17 ( talk) 22:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The quote, whose substance I do not dispute, has to be verified by an independent party. Show good faith. I do not want to change the article at all, just make sure the quote is accurate. The tag stays until somenoe other than Blankenship verifies that "their entire racism" is the exact quote. Do not remove the tag, Blankenship or "abrhm17" or it goes to an adimn. The fact that abrhm17 was just created, and that his talk page was Blankenships until the last edit makes me suspect sockpuppetry.Kjaer ( talk) 22:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
This guy can't be serious. Ignoring and reverting. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Why? Hey abrhm17, it appears you're my sockpuppet! congrats. Get an admin, this is hilarious. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Zaz, this guy is just trolling me because I inserted an unfavorable Chomsky quote into his precious Ayn Rand page. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Time to put an end to this absurdity. http://books.google.com/books?id=Rw4u68fxYQMC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=kaufmann+nietzsche+philosopher+psychologist+lamarck&source=web&ots=ZgvVVRxS4k&sig=KFqjfH_FHAyitNiBSh8HkacNDhE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result Quote proved. Reverting. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
looks like abrhm beat me to the punch. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Right, but he was being absurd anyway. He was demanding that I "get the book off the shelf" and check it again. When I told him I doubled checked, he demanded that I get the book off of the shelf yet again because it "seemed" like an inaccurate quote. He is now accusing another user of being a sockpuppet, when that person verified my quote. He's a troll. He's mad because I added a citation that casts doubt on the pure genius of his precious Rand, and now he can't get rid of it, despite his best efforts. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
He's STILL refusing to accept the quote. He has reverted my edits again. This guy is a laugh. He's also filed a sockpuppet charge against myself and abrhm17. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
No problem. I'm not sure we're allowed to use googlebooks as a source, though, hence why I didn't add it myself. I think that page might be protected by copyright. CABlankenship ( talk) 23:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Blankenship, could you please expalin to me how I could possibly have known that it was you who added the Kaufmann quote here? The accusation of trolling is absurd. The fact remains that no matter what our differences, there is a methodology to wikipedia and we all must follow it. I simply requested that you verify very strange wording. You refused to do so, told me to verify it myself, reverted the tag while insisting that you wouldn't bother to get the text = if you had it. All I wanted was your word that you had looked at the text - nothing more. It happens to turn out that the quote was accurate - a simple matter that could have been handled again just by your saying you had looked at the text. But instead you engaged in vandalism, multiple ereversions, and the sudden appearance of a sock puppet whose talk page happened to be your own. Expalin this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Friedrich_Nietzsche&diff=prev&oldid=261335852
It is not the quote, which I simply wanted to make sure was accurate, but your behavior here that has been the problem. Kjaer ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Abrhm already explained the 'edit' you mention Kjaer. He didn't know about the four tilde sig, so he had been copying other peoples sigs and pasting them after his quotes, and then adding his own name over the name of the person from whose quote he had copied. He forgot to paste over one of the CAblankenship names. Your accusation of 'same talk page' was just made up out of the blue, as has been explained to you. CABlankenship ( talk) 00:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
CABlankenship, your apology is not necessary. All of this would have been avoided if you would simply focus on the article. Again, you repeat that I did this to annoy you. I ask, how could I have known that it was you who added that statement "their entire racism"? How could I have known that you would be the one to respond to it? The strangeness of the quote is obvious. No one says anything in english like "it would disprove their entire racism." Maybe "it would disprove their racist theory." But even "disprove their racism" without entire is odd, because "disprove their racism" means to prove that they are not racist! You immediately started hurling accusations of POV. (What possible POV?) Make paranoid accusations that I am trolling - again, you responded to me - bring up the fact that I edit the Rand page as if it has anything to do with this. (Don't you also edit the Rand page, and doesn't that also make you a nut if it makes me one?) You post that I am a proven liar. About what? You post that I made up the same talk page matter out of the blue - but you yourself see the edit - so how is it out of the blue? And none of this had anything to do with the simple request that you look in a book and check to make sure one word is not misread. Next time simply follow procedure, and don't allow your emotions to act as evidence in your head for my supposed evil motives. After all, if it had in fact turned out that "racism" should have been "racist theory," how would this have hurt the article? How? What that I have done here has in any way hurt wikipedia? Kjaer ( talk) 01:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
My charges are not malicious. It was you who reverted a valid tag while outright refusing to answer a very simple and reasonable question. It was you who branded me a troll. I was not fraudulent. I did not make up anything, I did not call you a liar, I called you a possible sockpuppeteer while you made every possible accusation in the book, now including malice and fraud. Even if you are not a sockpuppeteer, which I do not know one way or the other, you committed vandalism by removing the tags. I made a simple inquiry. A 30 second post. You could simply have said you didn't have the text in front of you. You didn't even have to respond. Instead, with you hostility, your refusal to answer an honest question, your improper edits, you insults, you wasted my time and did everything possible to make me sure you are acting in bad faith. You have to show your good faith. I am sure we will have no problems going forward. Let's keep this off this talk page and stop wasting everybody's time.Kjaer ( talk) 02:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The lead paragraph states: "and a repudiation of both Christianity (especially 19th-century) and Egalitarianism (especially in the form of Democracy and Socialism)." Yet the issue of 19th Century Christianity is not discussed further in the article. I think that you could easily say that he repudiates Christianity, and could argue that he criticized aspects of contemporary Christianity. But that would need a citation. Unless there are objections I intend to remove the refernce to 19th century as not yet supported and not relevant to the main text. Kjaer ( talk) 03:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Here is what I have on politics for Nietzsche so far, my sources are Bertrand Russell, "A history of western philosophy", p.760-772 and Walter Kaufmann, "Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist" - various pages which I will list later. Here is my work so far:
Nietzsche admires certain qualities which he believes to be only possible for an aristocratic minority; the majority should be only means to the the creation of an elite, and should not be regarded as having any independent claim to happiness or well-being. He often refers to ordinary human beings as the "bungled and botched," and sees no objection to their suffering, but only if it is necessary for the production of a great man. This is consistent with Nietzsche's praise for Napoleon: "The Revolution made Napoleon possible: that is its justification. We ought to desire the anarchical collapse of the whole of our civilization if such a reward were to be its result." Allowing for his usual hyperbole, Nietzsche believed that "all of the higher hopes of this century" were due to Napoleon.
Nietzsche believed that it was necessary for higher men to make war upon the masses, and resist the democratic tendencies of his age: "Everything that pampers, that softens, and that brings the 'people' or 'woman' to the front, operates in favour of universal suffrage—that is to say, the domination of 'inferior' men." It is not surprising that Nietzsche condemned Socialism. Socialism to Nietzsche was essentially identical in spirit to Christianity. Nietzsche believed that any notion of equality of human beings was manifestly false as an objective point, and foolish romanticism as a political ideology. Nietzsche advocates the protection of artists, poets, and all who happen to be masters of some skill, but only if they are among the best of their order.
Nietzsche is not, however, a worshiper of the state; his views are oftentimes positively anarchist. Nietzsche was a passionate individualist: "The misfortunes of all these small folk do not together constitute a sum-total, except in the feelings of mighty men." Nietzsche is not a nationalist, and shows no admiration for Germany. Nietzsche desired an international ruling race, who are to be the lords of the earth: "a new vast aristocracy based upon the most severe self-discipline, in which the will of philosophical men of power and artist-tyrants will be stamped upon thousands of years." Nietzsche wished to see what he calls the "noble man", which is in no way a universal type, as a governing authority. This "noble man" will be capable of cruelty, and will recognize duties only to his equals. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Needs a lot of cleaning up, I know. But that's an example of my sources so far. I will cite everything like I did in the biology section when I'm done collecting sources and deciding on content. Suggestions and citations are welcome. CABlankenship ( talk) 05:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
More:
Nietzsche cannot be viewed, however, as a supporter of Capitalism. He was strongly critical of the notion of division of labor, saying: "it does not teach individual autocracy: it makes of many one machine and of every individual an instrument to an end. Its most generalized effect is to teach the utility of centralization." Nietzsche went on to say that it creates a "despairing boredom of the soul, which teaches them idleness in all its varieties." He said that wage earners under capitalism are worse off than slaves because they are at the "mercy of brute need" and of employers who exploit them. Instead, Nietzsche advocated individualist revolt against such measures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What's remarkable about Nietzsche is that there is something in his work for everyone. Are you a Socialist? Nietzsche has poignant arguments against Capitalism. Are you a Capitalist? Nietzsche has cunning arguments against Socialism. Anarchist? You'll find much to agree with in Nietzsche. Fringe hold-out doubter of Darwin and evolution? Nietzsche serves up ammo. Darwinist? Nietzsche has plenty of writings that the Darwinist will love. I can't really think of any other writer in history of whom this can be said. It's probably because Nietzsche basically attacked nearly everything. Except for the French. CABlankenship ( talk) 10:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
What is the deal with this reliance on Russell when it comes to Nietzsche? Not trying to be rude here, but what gives? The Cambridge dictionary uses none of his work on Nietzsche, nor does the Standord encyclopedia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HAL0002000 (
talk •
contribs)
10:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I've tried to balance the section on evolution a little bit. It now starts with Lamarckism and ends with Nietzsche's criticism on Darwinism. BTW: Should the biology section contain a reference to Nietzsche's position on Eugenics and euthanasia? For example, Alfred Hoche and Karl Binding referred to Nietzsche in their influential paper on eugenics and euthanasia in 1922 (see Life unworthy of life). (A paper called Freigabe der Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens, in English: Release for Annihilation of Life Unworthy of Life), -- D.H ( talk) 12:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Kaufmann states quite strongly that any connection between eugenics and Nietzsche was a Nazi lie. Also, Nietzsche was quite aware of the supporters of eugenics during his own time (Spencer, Galton) and he loudly rejected and mocked them. I currently have only one source on this issue (Kaufmann), but my own reading leads me to believe this is true. It's just too simple. Nietzsche's position on what we ought to do is quite unclear, and he kept himself mostly to criticizing the work of the English biologists (all of whom he despised and insulted regularly, including Darwin, who he referred to as 'stupid'). There is another problem here, namely, what to do about the people who insist on taking Nietzsche out of context. Oftentimes, Nietzsche would lay out the argument of the case he intended to debate, and then in the next paragraph he would utterly attack that position. Darwin and many other 19th century writers would do the same thing. This leads to a lot of examples of taking Nietzsche out of context (which is exactly what the Nazis did), and something we have to watch for, especially in the postmodern work on Nietzsche, as they have admitted contempt for truth, and they have an agenda to distort Nietzsche to fit their own modern liberalism. CABlankenship ( talk) 22:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
You are too much relying on Kaufmann (like most Americans....). For example, another well known philosopher (at least in Germany), Rüdiger Safranski, tells us that there is (in some way) a connection between Nietzsche's philosophy and the Nazi-Philosophy of Alfred Baeumler and (in a very crude form) the eugenics programs of Hoche/Binding. BTW: Not only the Nazis understood Nietzsche as a Socialdarwinist. For example, see the preface of the first Nietzsche-translation by Alexander Tille in this book (1899). They are based on Nietzsche's comments like his "Morality for physicians" (Twilight of the idols) "The sick man is a parasite of society. In a certain state it is indecent to live longer. To go on vegetating in cowardly dependence on physicians and machinations, after the meaning of life, the right to life, has been lost, that ought to prompt a profound contempt in society. The physicians, in turn, would have to be the mediators of this contempt--not prescriptions, but every day a new dose of nausea with their patients. To create a new responsibility, that of the physician, for all cases in which the highest interest of life, of ascending life, demands the most inconsiderate pushing down and aside of degenerating life--for example, for the right of procreation, for the right to be born, for the right to live." -- D.H ( talk) 11:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Moving past biology (hopefully — even though the section is way too sympathetic to Nietzsche in my opinion), maybe we can move on to his politics. While this is going to be a matter that requires significant debate, I think this time it can be fun. Obviously, pointing out Nietzsche was wrong about a lot of his biology (gasp) was bound to be challenged, but I think we can move past matters that are so clearly a slight to his omnipotence (does this make him less of an Übermensch?), and so maybe we can have an entertaining and witty debate without losing our tempers. I promise to do this.
I have listed my source on Nietzsche's politics, and it is Bertrand Russell. The piece on Capitalism is postmodernist distortion [1], but I would allow it to stand unless someone has a more credible source on how we should view Nietzsche on capitalism. The whole of the other paragraphs capture the spirit of what I would write on him now, and I believe that Russell cannot be contested as a source unless one is willing to argue that he is either wrong or a liar. In either event, considerable evidence will have to be produced for this, in my opinion. Sources will have to be found of enough credibility that they prove my authoritative source is either wrong or a liar.
With that in mind, how could anyone defend Nietzsche's politics? I'm eager to hear someone try. While it's clear that Nietzsche was a controversialist who simply liked stirring the pot, surely we admit that his writing on this subject (while amusing and entertaining) is nothing anyone can take seriously. Russell, a man known for his sobriety, deals with no-one in History of Western Philosophy as harshly as Nietzsche. He clearly despises the man. So from that, we must conclude that Russell took Nietzsche at face value. But how else are we to take him? I'm eager to hear what others have to offer. Was Nietzsche just joking? Is it all some complex metaphorical point that escapes the reading of lesser people like Russell? Perhaps I should study a postmodern Nietzschean Defense of Democracy [2], which tells us of the "Hermeneutical Complications" of interpreting Nietzsche's work on politics, where the author bitterly concedes that Nietzsche "assailed notions of equality, rationality, emancipation, and human rights", and worse still "Nietzsche proposed a politics of power and domination, an aristocratic cultural order meant to generate and support higher types of creative individuals and to counter the leveling tendencies of democratic sentiments", which becomes a "problem" for the "postmodern student" of Nietzsche: most of them strongly support democracy and the very values that Nietzsche so despised. But the author has the answer. A swirl of bewildering ideas struck him and: "converged in a clash that gave me pause: The Greek experience of democracy as an open contest of speeches, Plato's repudiation of democracy, Nietzsche's critique of Plato, Nietzsche's affirmation of contention, and Nietzsche's repudiation of democracy", "Something is wrong here," the author concludes. This is typical of the scholarship in the postmodern takes on Nietzsche's politics that I have read so far. I am open to any other examples that show me that my source is wrong in some way. Otherwise, I think we should begin to open up the section on Nietzsche's politics. Does anyone else have any good sources? CABlankenship ( talk) 06:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Rubbish. 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.' CABlankenship ( talk) 01:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Libertarian hogwash — a republic is a form of democracy. CABlankenship ( talk) 02:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no consensus on this score. Jefferson, for instance, used the terms democracy and republic interchangeably. Others, like Madison, differentiated between a pure democracy and a constitutional republic, which simply contains democratic forms. Plato's Republic was very similar to communism, but not very democratic. As Jefferson said, these terms are vague and mean different things to many different people. You happen to favor using these terms within a libertarian framework. Reminds me of Ron Paul supporters. CABlankenship ( talk) 15:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I have to say that I'm sorry that I failed until now to notice a fantastic contribution. The section on Nietzsche's writing ball is excellent! One almost wishes it were a complete fabrication. Without disrespect I can say it's one of the funniest things I've ever read. I also like the voice. Simply reading the section about his writing ball makes the rest of the article unnecessary! I've never in my life come across a better 'summary' memory image for Nietzsche's life and work. And oh, what we can all learn from a restoration of Nietzsche's 'damaged' writing ball! And the mechanic who made it worse! This little section is great. Congratulations! -- Picatrix ( talk) 14:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, it's a great addition. The poem is a fine ending to the article, also. I added an English translation. CABlankenship ( talk) 16:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm done researching Nietzsche, moving on. Good luck with the article. The philosophy of Nietzsche page is a disaster, in my opinion. Like this gem: " Deleuze, arguably the foremost of Nietzsche's interpreters, used the much-maligned 'will to power' thesis in tandem with Marxian notions of commodity surplus and Freudian ideas of desire to articulate concepts such the rhizome and other 'outsides' to state power as traditionally conceived." There is so much pomo nonsense that can reasonably be cited on Nietzsche that I doubt this page could ever offer a sober portrait of him. Shame, but maybe he deserved it. CABlankenship ( talk) 17:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I've done some poking around online and I found references indicating that the typewriter was a gift to Nietzsche from his sister, and that it was delivered to him in Genoa by Rée. Perhaps these are older conclusions that have since been corrected? Can anyone clarify? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I love it, but you're right. My enthusiasm has waned. However, can someone think of a minimally intrusive way of keeping some tiny mention of it somewhere in the main article, just so that it doesn't disappear altogether into another article where folks reading about Nietzsche are not likely to find it? I knew nothing about the device and Nietzsche's use of it until I saw it here. Maybe we could add a half-sentence mention of it placed with discussion of Nietzsche's struggles with his health and eyesight, where it would provide context? While the complete section is trivial, the fact around which it is based has some claim to inclusion. It makes Nietzsche's struggle with illness and his drive to keep on writing in the face of approaching blindness more concrete as an example. -- Picatrix ( talk) 13:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please add a good audio pronunciation or an english phonetic pronunciation? I would really appreciate it. M00npirate ( talk) 17:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I think that should exist a section about references of Nietzsche´s in popular culture, as exists for other biographies here in English Wikipedia. There are many things about him in movies or television series that can serve to article. Movies like When Nietzsche Wept (based in a best-seller), that are important for people interessed on other form to know Nietzsche´s work out of thw words. There are other film, Saint Ralph, wich explores Nietzsche´s themes such as Übermensch and God is Dead very well. I wrote this section because this edition was reverted, so I think it is better told you these things before create more confusion. Sorry my really bad English. -- Fernando S. Aldado ( talk) 21:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
My own opinion is that references to Neitzsche in 'popular culture' are not appropriate in the Nietzsche article. They seem to be little more than trivial page-clutter and do nothing to advance knowledge of the article's subject. I am strongly against the inclusion of such a section. -- Picatrix ( talk) 20:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Generally, speaking I agree with Picatrix. "Popular culture" sections usually add very little to Wikipedia articles. If you want to include a section on Nietzsche "in popular culture", you'll need to cite third party sources that films or TV shows you reference are (1) notable in and of themselves and (2)that they contribute in someway to our understanding of Nietzsche. Wikipedia requires that we have reliable sources, avoid original research, and establish notability. So if you can find--for instance--an article or book in which a Nietzsche scholar compares popular depictions of Nietzsche's biography and his philosophy with current academic work no Nietzsche, I would support a very brief discussion of the topic. (An extended discussion would need to have it's own article.) Fixer1234 ( talk) 07:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
The second paragraph in the intro seems to sort of hang there and doesn't really add to the preceding paragraph. Nor does it stand in a meaningful way on its own. As a biographical snippet its content seems highly arbitrary. I suggest we expand it slightly or (perhaps more wisely) remove it from the opening and incorporate the biographical information (if/as necessary) into the bio below, which of course immediately follows. Thoughts? -- Picatrix ( talk) 12:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is logical, it would censor all anti-democratic ideologists, esp. one embedded in the literate public mind, like Nietzsche. Democracy is the essence of freedom, and the implicit basis of wikipedia. Nietzsche's worldview would never allow democratic, communitarian/social experiments like Wikipedia to exist, so what's with the moral outrage about twisting his words for the sake of democracy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.148.192 ( talk) 13:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I remember, not too long ago, seeing a section in this article concerning Nietzsche's views on Darwin/evolution. Now the section appears to be missing. What reason, if any, was there for removing it? We're discussing the very topic in my philosophy class right now and so I think it is/was rather useful information. However, I do not want to reinsert the section if there was a decided-upon reason to remove it. - albrozdude ( talk) 05:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
My sources on that section were Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Walter Kaufmann Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, and Richardson Nietzsche's New Darwinism. Most of Nietzsche's remarks regarding evolution and Darwin come in The Will to Power, and precise sections can be found using the index. CABlankenship ( talk) 15:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
While interesting, the space devoted to the typewriter in the article seems wholly out of proportion to its relative importance to the subject. It should be reduced or made its own article or made into an article on the device itself with some touching on Nietzsche. Ekwos ( talk) 01:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)