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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:French Quarter which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 22:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is it that our readers should know that French Quarter refers to the one in New Orleans and not the generic phenomenon, or the one in Toronto or several other cities. What is it about the NOFQ that makes it so grand that it occupies an ambiguous unmarked space. Very irritating to readers, I'd say. The article needs to be named properly: French Quarter (New Orleans). Tony (talk) 10:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I restored the reformatting the page, in line with guidance at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(disambiguation_pages)#Linking_to_a_primary_topic. Dohn joe ( talk) 22:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
As for referring to New Orleans in the dab page, that again is in line with normal Wikipedia practice. Where a primary topic has been determined, you describe that article at the beginning of the dab page: "[[Whatever]] is a something that means something. Whatever may also refer to:" Even though French Quarter is the title of the article about the New Orleans district, other people coming to the dab page may not know that. Primary topic does not entail universal awareness.
In short, I'd leave the page (or at least the first sentence) as is, for those reasons. Dohn joe ( talk) 23:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Note that The Oxford English Dictionary says the term refers to a particular one, which is in Louisiana. Accordingly, I think the current solution (at least this perma-linked version) where the article means the one in Louisiana (without a parenthetical) and there is a link to a disambiguation page for other places is the best solution. Greg L ( talk) 23:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
[13] b. A division or district of a town or city, esp. that occupied by a certain group or community, or having a particular character or use. Sometimes with modifying word, as Chinese, French, Jewish, etc.
Many wikipedia articles are placed at titles without a definite article, even when in natural language the article is typically used. There seems nothing remarkable about that. As far as I can tell, the only reason N is making a fuss about it here is because he didn't get his way in the RM. older ≠ wiser 00:30, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I have been busy with other things, but now have time to answer comments here.
Dohn: Of course I concede that in the normal course of events many noun phrases can appear with or without the definite article at the start, depending on the context. But honestly, when people express a preference for vagueness over pinpoint clarity – where that clarity can be achieved at minimal cost – I wonder whether this is the normal course of events. I accepted the verdict in the RM: issued without a word of explanation, and leaving a phrase that looks plainly generic referring rather to some place that is plainly specific. I gave my thanks at the admin's talkpage, even though I said there that the decision seemed "deeply wrong". So why the concern over this DAB page? Well, if we were talking about London, or Sun, or Australia, or Brooklyn Bridge, there would be no problem. But we are talking about some place in New Orleans that locals, and others in the know, naturally refer to with a generic, descriptive term. I am looking for a way to work for consistency after the bizarre elevation of that local term to the title of a Wikipedia article, and its even more bizarre ratification by strange application of strangely worded provisions (some re-worded not long ago, interestingly). Alas, nothing seems able to achieve that consistency. In logic we learn that from an inconsistency anything can follow. (A contradiction entails every proposition, yes?) Similarly, expect odd-looking consequences after even odder-looking beginnings.
≠: Earlier I wrote this: "I cannot think that omitting '(New Orleans)' from 'French Quarter (New Orleans)' helps anyone. (Can you? Really?)" I see that you have chosen to ignore the question. Later, Tony wrote this: "You haven't answered the question: how will making the title vague help anyone?" You again did not answer, saying only: "The question is irrelevant", before advancing to your own preferred irrelevancies. I am glad to have it on record that you think such questions irrelevant, in deciding on the article titles readers are confronted with. When we lose sight of actual needs, especially the readers' needs, something has gone seriously wrong. This is not the place to remedy that; so I will prefer to waste no more time here. It is not a question of "beating my head" against anything, wall-like and unyielding as people here might make themselves by a narrow vision of what is encyclopedic. I will take this up where it can make a difference, using this as evidence.
Greg: Very many articles work differently from the way you seem to prefer. Consider Collins Street, Melbourne. There are many streets called "Collins Street" in the world, including a few in Australia. Accept for the sake of argument that the one in Melbourne is better known and more written about than any other (true, in fact). Should I attempt to prove in an RM that this Melbourne street is the "primary topic", and have the article moved to Collins Street? (That is currently a disambiguation page.) I see no benefit to anyone in such a move, but if you can, then I suggest you initiate the RM. Go ahead, please. The responses will be interesting, and give further evidence for possible reforms to policies and guidelines. I sincerely hope that you will do that. I will address issues there, be sure of that. But I prefer no more here.
Noetica Tea? 06:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
BTW, I just did some Google searches and, if your problem is over “ Collins Street, Melbourne”, I would support removal of the “Melbourne”. I don’t understand the history behind that Collins Street disambiguation page, but all those red links appear to be a contrivance to justify the “Melbourne” specificity. When I search on "Collins Street" Melbourne -Wikipedia, I get 2.75 million hits. When I search on "French Quarter" Lousiana -Wikipedia, I get 8.16 million hits. Thus, there are two facts: “Collins Street” is quite notable in comparison to “French Quarter,” and all those red links on Wikipedia’s diambiguation page show that the other “Collin Streets” are not very notable. I can only imagine that the apparent contrivance I see on the “Collins Street” disambiguation page is the result of some sort of power struggle amongst wikipedians with big egos (this is where someone new jumps in to assail me for lack of AGF and professes great insult and injury for my stating precisely and honestly what I think… waaa). Greg L ( talk) 18:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I’m sorry, but I see no need to solve problems with inconsistencies (which abound on Wikipedia) by changing “French Quarter” to “French Quarter, Louisiana.” There is but one “French Quarter" for the vast majority of typed inquiries, just as “Earth” usually means the planet and seldom refers to soil (thus “ Earth (planet)” merely redirects to “ Earth”, as it ought to).
I have no big problem with “Collins Street, Melbourne” but think that there is generally just one in mind for the vast majority of typed searches so the “Melbourne” is unnecessary specificity. The disambiguation page (or “index article”) for “ Collins Street” only drives home the fact that there is but one “Collins Street” for probably 99.5% of our visitors.
Wikipedia is best when text does not draw undo attention to itself and reads fluidly. And that, as it applies to article titles, springs by abiding to common sense interpretations of common usage of the Wikipedia product. Trying to apply military-style rigor to procedures on something as varied as Wikipedia (Writings>Debate>Wikipedia>WP-space>Article talk page>French Quarter-disambiguation>02:41, 10 October 2011 Post by Greg L MIL-T-28800E) makes programmer-types happy, but unduly calls attention to itself when it is unnecessary because it reads awkwardly. Greg L ( talk) 02:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Charleston has a "French Quarter", but Hanoi has a "French quarter"? What is the basis for this distinction? For today's Vietnamese, the section of Hanoi is just Quận Ba Đình and they don't know anything about a French Quarter. But the travel industry promotes it: "Much of the appeal of Hanoi's French Quarter is in its colonial architecture" ( Lonely Planet, 2007). "In a central location in Hanoi's French Quarter stands the handsome and well-patronized Quan Su Pagoda" ( Hanoi: biography of a city, 2000). This agent offers tours of "The French Quarter of Hanoi". (Nice pictures. Somehow they managed to make this urban district look like a countryside estate.) Here is a story from VNA, the official news agency: " French Quarter in Hanoi to be preserved". Kauffner ( talk) 21:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:French Quarter which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 22:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is it that our readers should know that French Quarter refers to the one in New Orleans and not the generic phenomenon, or the one in Toronto or several other cities. What is it about the NOFQ that makes it so grand that it occupies an ambiguous unmarked space. Very irritating to readers, I'd say. The article needs to be named properly: French Quarter (New Orleans). Tony (talk) 10:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I restored the reformatting the page, in line with guidance at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(disambiguation_pages)#Linking_to_a_primary_topic. Dohn joe ( talk) 22:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
As for referring to New Orleans in the dab page, that again is in line with normal Wikipedia practice. Where a primary topic has been determined, you describe that article at the beginning of the dab page: "[[Whatever]] is a something that means something. Whatever may also refer to:" Even though French Quarter is the title of the article about the New Orleans district, other people coming to the dab page may not know that. Primary topic does not entail universal awareness.
In short, I'd leave the page (or at least the first sentence) as is, for those reasons. Dohn joe ( talk) 23:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Note that The Oxford English Dictionary says the term refers to a particular one, which is in Louisiana. Accordingly, I think the current solution (at least this perma-linked version) where the article means the one in Louisiana (without a parenthetical) and there is a link to a disambiguation page for other places is the best solution. Greg L ( talk) 23:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
[13] b. A division or district of a town or city, esp. that occupied by a certain group or community, or having a particular character or use. Sometimes with modifying word, as Chinese, French, Jewish, etc.
Many wikipedia articles are placed at titles without a definite article, even when in natural language the article is typically used. There seems nothing remarkable about that. As far as I can tell, the only reason N is making a fuss about it here is because he didn't get his way in the RM. older ≠ wiser 00:30, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I have been busy with other things, but now have time to answer comments here.
Dohn: Of course I concede that in the normal course of events many noun phrases can appear with or without the definite article at the start, depending on the context. But honestly, when people express a preference for vagueness over pinpoint clarity – where that clarity can be achieved at minimal cost – I wonder whether this is the normal course of events. I accepted the verdict in the RM: issued without a word of explanation, and leaving a phrase that looks plainly generic referring rather to some place that is plainly specific. I gave my thanks at the admin's talkpage, even though I said there that the decision seemed "deeply wrong". So why the concern over this DAB page? Well, if we were talking about London, or Sun, or Australia, or Brooklyn Bridge, there would be no problem. But we are talking about some place in New Orleans that locals, and others in the know, naturally refer to with a generic, descriptive term. I am looking for a way to work for consistency after the bizarre elevation of that local term to the title of a Wikipedia article, and its even more bizarre ratification by strange application of strangely worded provisions (some re-worded not long ago, interestingly). Alas, nothing seems able to achieve that consistency. In logic we learn that from an inconsistency anything can follow. (A contradiction entails every proposition, yes?) Similarly, expect odd-looking consequences after even odder-looking beginnings.
≠: Earlier I wrote this: "I cannot think that omitting '(New Orleans)' from 'French Quarter (New Orleans)' helps anyone. (Can you? Really?)" I see that you have chosen to ignore the question. Later, Tony wrote this: "You haven't answered the question: how will making the title vague help anyone?" You again did not answer, saying only: "The question is irrelevant", before advancing to your own preferred irrelevancies. I am glad to have it on record that you think such questions irrelevant, in deciding on the article titles readers are confronted with. When we lose sight of actual needs, especially the readers' needs, something has gone seriously wrong. This is not the place to remedy that; so I will prefer to waste no more time here. It is not a question of "beating my head" against anything, wall-like and unyielding as people here might make themselves by a narrow vision of what is encyclopedic. I will take this up where it can make a difference, using this as evidence.
Greg: Very many articles work differently from the way you seem to prefer. Consider Collins Street, Melbourne. There are many streets called "Collins Street" in the world, including a few in Australia. Accept for the sake of argument that the one in Melbourne is better known and more written about than any other (true, in fact). Should I attempt to prove in an RM that this Melbourne street is the "primary topic", and have the article moved to Collins Street? (That is currently a disambiguation page.) I see no benefit to anyone in such a move, but if you can, then I suggest you initiate the RM. Go ahead, please. The responses will be interesting, and give further evidence for possible reforms to policies and guidelines. I sincerely hope that you will do that. I will address issues there, be sure of that. But I prefer no more here.
Noetica Tea? 06:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
BTW, I just did some Google searches and, if your problem is over “ Collins Street, Melbourne”, I would support removal of the “Melbourne”. I don’t understand the history behind that Collins Street disambiguation page, but all those red links appear to be a contrivance to justify the “Melbourne” specificity. When I search on "Collins Street" Melbourne -Wikipedia, I get 2.75 million hits. When I search on "French Quarter" Lousiana -Wikipedia, I get 8.16 million hits. Thus, there are two facts: “Collins Street” is quite notable in comparison to “French Quarter,” and all those red links on Wikipedia’s diambiguation page show that the other “Collin Streets” are not very notable. I can only imagine that the apparent contrivance I see on the “Collins Street” disambiguation page is the result of some sort of power struggle amongst wikipedians with big egos (this is where someone new jumps in to assail me for lack of AGF and professes great insult and injury for my stating precisely and honestly what I think… waaa). Greg L ( talk) 18:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I’m sorry, but I see no need to solve problems with inconsistencies (which abound on Wikipedia) by changing “French Quarter” to “French Quarter, Louisiana.” There is but one “French Quarter" for the vast majority of typed inquiries, just as “Earth” usually means the planet and seldom refers to soil (thus “ Earth (planet)” merely redirects to “ Earth”, as it ought to).
I have no big problem with “Collins Street, Melbourne” but think that there is generally just one in mind for the vast majority of typed searches so the “Melbourne” is unnecessary specificity. The disambiguation page (or “index article”) for “ Collins Street” only drives home the fact that there is but one “Collins Street” for probably 99.5% of our visitors.
Wikipedia is best when text does not draw undo attention to itself and reads fluidly. And that, as it applies to article titles, springs by abiding to common sense interpretations of common usage of the Wikipedia product. Trying to apply military-style rigor to procedures on something as varied as Wikipedia (Writings>Debate>Wikipedia>WP-space>Article talk page>French Quarter-disambiguation>02:41, 10 October 2011 Post by Greg L MIL-T-28800E) makes programmer-types happy, but unduly calls attention to itself when it is unnecessary because it reads awkwardly. Greg L ( talk) 02:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Charleston has a "French Quarter", but Hanoi has a "French quarter"? What is the basis for this distinction? For today's Vietnamese, the section of Hanoi is just Quận Ba Đình and they don't know anything about a French Quarter. But the travel industry promotes it: "Much of the appeal of Hanoi's French Quarter is in its colonial architecture" ( Lonely Planet, 2007). "In a central location in Hanoi's French Quarter stands the handsome and well-patronized Quan Su Pagoda" ( Hanoi: biography of a city, 2000). This agent offers tours of "The French Quarter of Hanoi". (Nice pictures. Somehow they managed to make this urban district look like a countryside estate.) Here is a story from VNA, the official news agency: " French Quarter in Hanoi to be preserved". Kauffner ( talk) 21:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)