![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archived talkpage. Please discuss on the active talkpage. WegianWarrior 19:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
We seem to be going in circles on whether to include or exclude the UGLE and GLS websites in the external links. As a compromise, I have shifted them to the Bibliography section. Blueboar 16:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi All; some one needs to check and review the external links, some seem to be broken such as the link to Masonic books on-line. Thanks, JDAyer
Moved to Talk:Scottish_Rite#Rose_Croix
I reverted these because they violate WP formatting policies. External links is always External links, and I don't know what that other stuff was. This is a general article on Freemasonry, and to start adding very country-specific info skews the article away from its purpose, which is a general introduction ot Freemasonry in general. MSJapan 16:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not happy with the introduction to this section. It is far too long and not up to Wiki standards. I have replaced it with the introduction from the Anti-Masonry page which I feel is far better, at least until something approaching readablity is achieved on these two paragraphs. Literaryagent 16:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Done it for you :-) Generic Character 20:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Literaryagent has many ideal points that this part of the article is biased as it is trying to to avoid Neutrality by being more as if it is freemason-pro. It suggest that the freemason were a subject of being victimised and making readers seem feel sorrow for their suppression which is an attribute of a non-nuetral Author and/or article. It would please me and many others if the first two paragraphs of this article would be re-written in a more appropriate form such as removing words such as "supposedly". Also it bothers me that their is no information on what is said in the agreemnt of oaths taken in this society at any "level". I am not anit-masonary but it proves there is nothing to be hidden or oppose the freemasons supposed focus on good morality. Thanks. -- Gundiy3 09:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Ů
Towards the end of the cultural references list it is mentioned that the album Holy Wood by Marilyn Manson alludes to Freemasonry in song titles, lyrics, and sounds. The only reference I see is the title of the song King Kill 33, which is named after the essay King-Kill 33: Masonic Symbolism in the Assassination of John F.Kennedy. The rest of the lyrics and song titles don't seem to make any references to Freemasonry at all. As for making references using sounds, what could that possibly be? Any thoughts?
Here we go. From MetroActive Music:
Continuing in the Kennedy vein, the militant Ministry-styled "King Kill 33°" is titled after an in-depth analysis by James Shelby Downard and Michael A. Hoffman II that speculates on the Masonic symbolism of the Kennedy assasination. The rare tract (which can be purchased online at www.hoffman-info.com) seems to be the work of conspiracy analysts with vast references to sorcery, mysticism, rituals and the science of names.
The work says that the 33rd degree is the highest in Freemasonry and that Kennedy was killed only 10 miles from the 33rd degree of latitude. It also states that "it is a prime tenet of Masonry that its assassins come in threes," disputing the lone gunman theory. It goes on to say "Something died in the American people on November 22, 1963--call it idealism, innocence or the quest for moral excellence." This statement proposes that in only one day, American society took a dramatic turn for the worse, a concept that likely struck Manson's fancy.
"King Kill 33°" suggests that in alchemy--a subject that Manson has been studying--the "Killing of the King" was symbolized by a crucified snake on a tau cross, a T-shaped cross like the one on which Jesus was crucified. The inside of Holy Wood's cover is lined with tarot cards, and the Magician card reveals Manson holding a variation of that very image with a snake wrapped around an image of Christ on a crucifix.
Therefore, it's really quite questionable as to the accuracy of the statement - Manson was talking about alchemy and ideals, and the cross is not a Masonic symbol. Even the reviewer isn't making a judgment on it either way. I'd remove the statement. MSJapan 20:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Brethren... In response to a request at the Freemasonry Project, I started the (Sub?) article Ye Antient Order of Noble Corks. This has attracted a Wiki-lawter from the off - so if you want to save it from deletion, why not have a go at supporting it, and if possible provide third party references, etc. (Gives 3º distress sign) :-( Generic Character 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I find the following two paragraphs needlessly prejudicial to the critics of Freemasonry. It paints all criticism of Freemasonry in the light of these two fringe groupings. The second paragraph is quoting a Masonic Researcher whose intent seems to be to cast the critics of Masonry in as poor as light as possible. The first paragraph is really a bit silly. Mainstream critiques of Freemasonry today come from Civil and Religious concerns, not this sort of thing. Literaryagent 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Freemasonry has long been a target associated with the New World Order and other "agents", such as the Illuminati - seen by conspiracy theorists, as either bent on world domination, or already secretly in control of world politics. Historically it has attracted criticism - and suppression - from both the politically extreme right (i.e. Nazi Germany [4] [5]) and the extreme left (i.e. the former Communist states in Eastern Europe). The Fraternity has encountered both applause for “founding”, and opposition for supposedly thwarting, liberal democracy (such as the United States of America).
In some countries anti-Masonry is often related to Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism. Andrew Prescott, of the University of Sheffield, writes: "Since at least the time of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, anti-semitism has gone hand in hand with anti-masonry, so it is not surprising that allegations that 11 September was a Zionist plot have been accompanied by suggestions that the attacks were inspired by a masonic world order." [3]
Just for the record: Literaryagent has been confirmed as a sock of the banned Lightbringer. Not really shocking news... WegianWarrior 19:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not particularly interested in this subject, but someone may want to enter something about a recent mini-scandal in the Alabama gubernatorial election and Bob R. Riley which may have some bearing on the question of Freemasonry and segregation:
In August 2006, a [[Birmingham, Alabama]] radio talk show publicized the Governor, [[Bob R. Riley|Riley's]] membership in the all-white [[Grand Lodge of Alabama]]. The issue was explored in a widely-published [[Associated Press]] article where Riley and other Grand Lodge members denied that the group discriminates. The Grand Lodge Master, Frank Little said that he knew of no blacks among its 32,000+ members statewide, he vowed in the article to dissolve any lodge that barred their admission.<ref>{{cite web | url = http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-24/1159551248101570.xml&storylist=alabamanews | title = Ala. governor defends membership in white Masonic lodge | accessdate = 2006-10-08 | date = [[2006-09-29]] | work = | publisher = NewFlash, AP }}</ref>
I did a fair bit of research on Kipling two years ago for a University course, a good portion of my research specifically on The Man Who Would Be King, which is referenced in this article. The Kipling section of this article notes that Kipling was a freemason.
Though it seems that considering the nature of the masons we might not be able to know for sure, all sources that I have read (these being books on Kipling from the university library; not much is available online) indicate that Kipling was in fact not a mason. He was apparently fascinated with freemasonry, hence its inclusion in many of his works, but was denied entry (possibly more than once) when he applied to join the local lodge while working at the Civil and Military Gazette newspaper in what was then Lahore, India. His time there and his work at the newspaper inspired The Man Who Would Be King, and thus it follows that things that interested him while he was there (e.g. freemasonry) would make it into the story.
I won't edit the article because I don't have the sources handy, but maybe it should be changed anyway (perhaps by simply removing the sentence, though this may leave the question of Kipling being a mason too ambiguous) since whoever wrote that Kipling was a mason didn't leave a source either.
Hello, I'm just wondering, as i herd it off a person somewhere, that there are some form of female lodges and female freemasonry, allthough its not fully acepted by the grand lodges, and i was wondering if there was any substance to this (Sorry about mistakes if any, as i don't know how free masonry works)
Oz
Hello, Thanks For clearing that up, wasnt too sure myself
Oz
Hi All. This article is pretty weak on describing the various "Masonic" organizations of which there are many and it seems to focus on a couple such as GLE. Some "Masonic" organizations recognize each other and some do not, which the article does point out, although it gives the idea that there are just a couple. Some "Masonic" organizations have strict and specific membership rules and some do not. The "Masonic" organizations which derive their beginnings from the Grand Lodge of England are probably what most people think of as "Masonic", however, there are hundreds of groups which call themselves "Masons" which have no relationship to nor derive their beginnings from the GLE. In fact I have read anti-Masonic articles which reference by-laws from non-GLE organizations and relate them to GLE organizations. If that does not confuse things enough there are so many stories about “drinking blood out of a skull” around (which I hear rumored is actually part of a ritual in a “lodge” not associated with the GLE) that it becomes near impossible for a non-Mason to understand or define what a "Masonic" organization is. For example, a GLE lodge recognizes itself and other recognized lodges as "Masonic" and anyone else calling themselves "Masonic" is really a "Profane", but, to another "Masonic" organization with different rules and rituals the exact opposite is true. Thanks JDA.
Balongnaking recently made this edit. As it involves a cited line, I have reverted on the general principle that such edits should be discussed first. It actually looks like a good edit to me (the line is a bit out of place in the paragraph), but I wanted to make sure people saw it and had a chance to comment. Does anyone object, or can Bk go ahead and re-cut the line? Blueboar 02:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we clarify what these objections are? I really don't think the sentence from the article BB quoted above is very clear and this discussion bears that out. I understand the complaint BB describes but I'm still not sure what MSJ is talking about. I think getting rid of the word "patrimony" might be a start; I followed that link and it was absolutely unhelpful. -- Bolognaking 22:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar 01:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Bolognaking 05:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me and please let me know if this is not an appropriate use, but I wondered if anyone can make heads or tails of this page. Features a masonic emblem and meaningless text in low contrast, but nothing else I can find. http://www.alltheconspiracies.com/
It's fun, even though I can't get past 'whatdoestheeyewant.html' because I suck. :( Jachin 01:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Just came across the proposed guideline: Wikipedia:Articles about ongoing enterprises and thought "hey, this relates to the various Freemasonry articles". It is an off shoot of the WP:BLP guideline that treats active organizations in a similar way to living persons. While not yet an official guideline, it is a step in the right direction. I thought I should share it with everyone. Blueboar 14:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I note that User:Mamalujo has returned and is seeking to insert a slight modification to the form of words related to the Morgan affair that we agreed was inappropriate in the article. Example from 14th July with associated discussion here.
ISTR that consensus was that it could reasonably go into the Morgan article but was probably too much detail in this article. ALR 19:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi All: Morgan was actually a Mason, although I am not sure he was a Mason of the Third Degree or Master Mason. My understanding is that Morgan was not so much anti-Masonic as greedy. My understanding is that Morgan submitted a "Masonic Manual" for printing and the outrage among Masons was more regarding the inaccuracies than the publication of "Masonic Secrets". The manual was so inaccurate that it has not survived the years when others have. In fact, the inaccuracies in Morgan’s manual led to the publication of several other manuals by Masons which were and are accurate enough to have survived. Duncan’s is probably the most respected and reprinted.
It should be also noted that in an age where methods of communication were very limited "secret" passwords and signs enabled people who did not know each other to "know" that they had each been chosen by unanimous decision of a group as being "on the square". Publication of the "secrets" of Masonry, which had happened before Morgan and did happen again after Morgan, destroyed the ability of Masons to instantly trust each other on contact. This kind of lost "instant trust" would upset people who depended on that trust. It does not take much common sense to understand that the people who would lose the most from this "lost trust" would be non-Masons who represented themselves as Masons after learning the secrets and then used that trust to engage in criminal activities such as confidence games. It would not surprise me if it was discovered that those who attacked Morgan and represented themselves as Masons were just con-men upset at losing their "game". Real Masons generally have friends and acquaintances in common and have no trouble establishing themselves without secrets, so the secrets are of value only to the “boy” in the man and certainly not worth killing over.
I suppose though that propaganda and conspiracy theories being as popular today as they were in Morgan’s day the idea that there are fraternal secrets worth killing over will always appeal to the kind of people who enjoy soap operas. There will always be those who take advantage of that love of soap operas for their own reasons and to achieve their own goals in spite of reality. Thanks JDAyer
I am missing some words about the Inquisition that murdered loads of Freemasons.
Catholicism and Freemasonry#Freemasonry and The Inquisiton - But this is also very short and is more apologetic. -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 19:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The case of Crudeli and Coustos is just one example in Portugal. Additionally to this "event", two more autodafés followed the same year. Persecution continued by Josef I. Maria I cooperated with the inquisitor Alvara José Radelhan and the Freemasons were committed the inquisition. Even before, the Grand Inquisitor Orbe y Larreategui put through an edict against Freemasonry and Philip V of Spain banned all Freemasons from Spain. After the second papal bull Ferdinand VII of Spain was accused by José Torrubi, censor and revisor of the highest authority in the Curia, so the King stated that he will "wipe out this order with all its reputation". Luckily he didn't follow Torrubi's demand to burn the Freemasons "for the greater glorification of the faith and to strengthen the faith in an autodafé".
In 1775, the inquisitor P. Mabile attacked the Mother Lodge in Avignon. In 1785, several Freemasons were burned in Venice and the state inquisitor Girolamo Diedo ordered to search for Freemasons in Verona. The French Worshipful Master of a Lodge was imprisoned. In Rome and Padua, there were other attacks. There was also a public Book burning of Cagliostro's book about Egyptian Freemasonry. On September 25, 1814, 25 Freemasons were incarcerated of the prison of the inquision for six years in Madrid. In 1815, five Freemasons were hanged, in 1819 two Freemasons died under torture in Madrid. In 1825, seven Freemasons were executed, the following February, Antonio Caro died with the shout "Long life Freemasonry" and after his execution they cut off his right hand.
Just to list a few examples of my masonic encyclopedia.
"Not the norm" and the inquision was just "involved in assisting the supression", they did not murder lots of Freemasons and this "did not play a much of roll in the developement of Freemasonry"? -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Freemasonry and the Catholic Church have been at odds for hundreds of years and this has undoubtedly resulted in the inquisition, torture and murder of Freemasons. Freemasons believe strongly in Freedom of Religion and Non-Denominational Public Education. Any review of the ritual of the Order of Demolay, a Masonic youth organization, gives the reader a good understanding of the historical position of Freemasonry on Public Education. The Freedom to worship “the One true God” as one pleases is evident in any common Masonic ritual, such as Duncan's. Since religious organizations derive their power and authority by controlling how "God" (or "Gods" if you prefer) must be worshipped the idea that you can worship as you choose will always be attacked by those to whom control of religion is a goal. For reference I suggest that you review the Catholic Church's political position concerning the United States during the time period from the mid 1770's to the early 1800's. Not commonly understood nor cited and well worth the research, although you will have to go a little deeper than common propaganda to gain an understanding of the politics and reality and that is difficult when working with an organization whose damage control operation has people referring to the “Spanish Inquisition”. I appreciate the fact that this section refers to the Inquisition as a whole.
That said, an overview should touch on and not detail any specific issue. I am of the opinion that a well written paragraph on the objection to the Freedom of Religion espoused by Freemasonry by a variety of strict religious organizations which commonly attack Freemasonry would suffice. Thanks JDAyer
Hey all. I'm just wondering if we have a list of things to resolve before we can resubmit this for featured article status. I'm willing to put in some time to make this page just sparkle and hope that one of the frequent contributors may be able to show me the task list. :) Thanks all! Bdevoe 18:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've been away for some time tending to my studies, only to return to find the opening few paragraphs of the FM article filled with drivel and uneccesary quadruple citations and other odd behaviour. Can someone fill me in as to why we're lowering article quality in essence whilst being overly-citatious?
Furthermore, all I have to say is wtf: --
Dr. Dieter Anton Binder,[8] a historian (and not a Freemason) who is a professor at the University of Graz (Austria) describes Freemasonry as a "confidential" society in contrast to a secret society in his book Die diskrete Gesellschaft.[9]
Who? Why? What? We care because? This applies to the article how? Too much discussion about 'secret society' 'society with secrets' for an opening paragraph, needs some hefty trimming. I'm guessing this has come about by visiting editors wanting to contribute things that -they- personally see as cornerstones and something that needs to be waved. Furthermore I am sure we have opposing POV anti-mason agenda pushers who're also adding to the disunity, confusion and mess of the article. :/
I'll go through and nerf out some (obvious) crap over the next few days and reduce citations to a single (the better of the options) citation. There is no need to list more than one reference for any statement that may be brought into question, if there are multiple, choose the higher quality of the lot and use it. Jachin 22:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed [1] the category "German Freemason" from Friedrich Schiller since there is no proof that he was a Freemason, although was in contact with Freemasons. The Freemason Christian Gottfried Körner asked his friend Schiller to write a poem for the Masonic table dinner of the Lodge „Zu den drei Schwertern“ in Dresden. This was the Ode to Joy.
There's still no proof that Ludwig van Beethoven was a Freemason, but there are rumors that he was a member until he was deaf. In 1955, the Freemason (Humanitas Lodge, Vienna) Richard Nikolaus Graf Coudenhove-Kalergi proposed Beethoven's Ode to Joy as the new European Anthem. -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Gosh! The same IP added those context-less race mixing cites, to that article of Graf von Coudenhove-Kalergi, too. :-( -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the discussion here (as well as the discussion below it), the exact same policies that Opus Dei follows are precisely what Freemasonry follows, thus, Freemasonry is by evidence not a secret society. That should put that to rest. MSJapan 15:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I came across this article today: Lodge 2... I am not sure about the validity of some of the statements made (it needs citations), but I think it is someone's attempt to write a legit article. In any case it needs a lot of work. Blueboar 14:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Just saw the article on Freemasons at uncyclopedia... who told them the truth?... come on, fess up. Blueboar 14:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The Freemasons work today in the underground and finance themselves by selling certain authors explosive information, which are mostly absolute nonsense, nevertheless it can be used wonderful in a novel.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archived talkpage. Please discuss on the active talkpage. WegianWarrior 19:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
We seem to be going in circles on whether to include or exclude the UGLE and GLS websites in the external links. As a compromise, I have shifted them to the Bibliography section. Blueboar 16:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi All; some one needs to check and review the external links, some seem to be broken such as the link to Masonic books on-line. Thanks, JDAyer
Moved to Talk:Scottish_Rite#Rose_Croix
I reverted these because they violate WP formatting policies. External links is always External links, and I don't know what that other stuff was. This is a general article on Freemasonry, and to start adding very country-specific info skews the article away from its purpose, which is a general introduction ot Freemasonry in general. MSJapan 16:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not happy with the introduction to this section. It is far too long and not up to Wiki standards. I have replaced it with the introduction from the Anti-Masonry page which I feel is far better, at least until something approaching readablity is achieved on these two paragraphs. Literaryagent 16:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Done it for you :-) Generic Character 20:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Literaryagent has many ideal points that this part of the article is biased as it is trying to to avoid Neutrality by being more as if it is freemason-pro. It suggest that the freemason were a subject of being victimised and making readers seem feel sorrow for their suppression which is an attribute of a non-nuetral Author and/or article. It would please me and many others if the first two paragraphs of this article would be re-written in a more appropriate form such as removing words such as "supposedly". Also it bothers me that their is no information on what is said in the agreemnt of oaths taken in this society at any "level". I am not anit-masonary but it proves there is nothing to be hidden or oppose the freemasons supposed focus on good morality. Thanks. -- Gundiy3 09:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Ů
Towards the end of the cultural references list it is mentioned that the album Holy Wood by Marilyn Manson alludes to Freemasonry in song titles, lyrics, and sounds. The only reference I see is the title of the song King Kill 33, which is named after the essay King-Kill 33: Masonic Symbolism in the Assassination of John F.Kennedy. The rest of the lyrics and song titles don't seem to make any references to Freemasonry at all. As for making references using sounds, what could that possibly be? Any thoughts?
Here we go. From MetroActive Music:
Continuing in the Kennedy vein, the militant Ministry-styled "King Kill 33°" is titled after an in-depth analysis by James Shelby Downard and Michael A. Hoffman II that speculates on the Masonic symbolism of the Kennedy assasination. The rare tract (which can be purchased online at www.hoffman-info.com) seems to be the work of conspiracy analysts with vast references to sorcery, mysticism, rituals and the science of names.
The work says that the 33rd degree is the highest in Freemasonry and that Kennedy was killed only 10 miles from the 33rd degree of latitude. It also states that "it is a prime tenet of Masonry that its assassins come in threes," disputing the lone gunman theory. It goes on to say "Something died in the American people on November 22, 1963--call it idealism, innocence or the quest for moral excellence." This statement proposes that in only one day, American society took a dramatic turn for the worse, a concept that likely struck Manson's fancy.
"King Kill 33°" suggests that in alchemy--a subject that Manson has been studying--the "Killing of the King" was symbolized by a crucified snake on a tau cross, a T-shaped cross like the one on which Jesus was crucified. The inside of Holy Wood's cover is lined with tarot cards, and the Magician card reveals Manson holding a variation of that very image with a snake wrapped around an image of Christ on a crucifix.
Therefore, it's really quite questionable as to the accuracy of the statement - Manson was talking about alchemy and ideals, and the cross is not a Masonic symbol. Even the reviewer isn't making a judgment on it either way. I'd remove the statement. MSJapan 20:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Brethren... In response to a request at the Freemasonry Project, I started the (Sub?) article Ye Antient Order of Noble Corks. This has attracted a Wiki-lawter from the off - so if you want to save it from deletion, why not have a go at supporting it, and if possible provide third party references, etc. (Gives 3º distress sign) :-( Generic Character 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I find the following two paragraphs needlessly prejudicial to the critics of Freemasonry. It paints all criticism of Freemasonry in the light of these two fringe groupings. The second paragraph is quoting a Masonic Researcher whose intent seems to be to cast the critics of Masonry in as poor as light as possible. The first paragraph is really a bit silly. Mainstream critiques of Freemasonry today come from Civil and Religious concerns, not this sort of thing. Literaryagent 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Freemasonry has long been a target associated with the New World Order and other "agents", such as the Illuminati - seen by conspiracy theorists, as either bent on world domination, or already secretly in control of world politics. Historically it has attracted criticism - and suppression - from both the politically extreme right (i.e. Nazi Germany [4] [5]) and the extreme left (i.e. the former Communist states in Eastern Europe). The Fraternity has encountered both applause for “founding”, and opposition for supposedly thwarting, liberal democracy (such as the United States of America).
In some countries anti-Masonry is often related to Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism. Andrew Prescott, of the University of Sheffield, writes: "Since at least the time of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, anti-semitism has gone hand in hand with anti-masonry, so it is not surprising that allegations that 11 September was a Zionist plot have been accompanied by suggestions that the attacks were inspired by a masonic world order." [3]
Just for the record: Literaryagent has been confirmed as a sock of the banned Lightbringer. Not really shocking news... WegianWarrior 19:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not particularly interested in this subject, but someone may want to enter something about a recent mini-scandal in the Alabama gubernatorial election and Bob R. Riley which may have some bearing on the question of Freemasonry and segregation:
In August 2006, a [[Birmingham, Alabama]] radio talk show publicized the Governor, [[Bob R. Riley|Riley's]] membership in the all-white [[Grand Lodge of Alabama]]. The issue was explored in a widely-published [[Associated Press]] article where Riley and other Grand Lodge members denied that the group discriminates. The Grand Lodge Master, Frank Little said that he knew of no blacks among its 32,000+ members statewide, he vowed in the article to dissolve any lodge that barred their admission.<ref>{{cite web | url = http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-24/1159551248101570.xml&storylist=alabamanews | title = Ala. governor defends membership in white Masonic lodge | accessdate = 2006-10-08 | date = [[2006-09-29]] | work = | publisher = NewFlash, AP }}</ref>
I did a fair bit of research on Kipling two years ago for a University course, a good portion of my research specifically on The Man Who Would Be King, which is referenced in this article. The Kipling section of this article notes that Kipling was a freemason.
Though it seems that considering the nature of the masons we might not be able to know for sure, all sources that I have read (these being books on Kipling from the university library; not much is available online) indicate that Kipling was in fact not a mason. He was apparently fascinated with freemasonry, hence its inclusion in many of his works, but was denied entry (possibly more than once) when he applied to join the local lodge while working at the Civil and Military Gazette newspaper in what was then Lahore, India. His time there and his work at the newspaper inspired The Man Who Would Be King, and thus it follows that things that interested him while he was there (e.g. freemasonry) would make it into the story.
I won't edit the article because I don't have the sources handy, but maybe it should be changed anyway (perhaps by simply removing the sentence, though this may leave the question of Kipling being a mason too ambiguous) since whoever wrote that Kipling was a mason didn't leave a source either.
Hello, I'm just wondering, as i herd it off a person somewhere, that there are some form of female lodges and female freemasonry, allthough its not fully acepted by the grand lodges, and i was wondering if there was any substance to this (Sorry about mistakes if any, as i don't know how free masonry works)
Oz
Hello, Thanks For clearing that up, wasnt too sure myself
Oz
Hi All. This article is pretty weak on describing the various "Masonic" organizations of which there are many and it seems to focus on a couple such as GLE. Some "Masonic" organizations recognize each other and some do not, which the article does point out, although it gives the idea that there are just a couple. Some "Masonic" organizations have strict and specific membership rules and some do not. The "Masonic" organizations which derive their beginnings from the Grand Lodge of England are probably what most people think of as "Masonic", however, there are hundreds of groups which call themselves "Masons" which have no relationship to nor derive their beginnings from the GLE. In fact I have read anti-Masonic articles which reference by-laws from non-GLE organizations and relate them to GLE organizations. If that does not confuse things enough there are so many stories about “drinking blood out of a skull” around (which I hear rumored is actually part of a ritual in a “lodge” not associated with the GLE) that it becomes near impossible for a non-Mason to understand or define what a "Masonic" organization is. For example, a GLE lodge recognizes itself and other recognized lodges as "Masonic" and anyone else calling themselves "Masonic" is really a "Profane", but, to another "Masonic" organization with different rules and rituals the exact opposite is true. Thanks JDA.
Balongnaking recently made this edit. As it involves a cited line, I have reverted on the general principle that such edits should be discussed first. It actually looks like a good edit to me (the line is a bit out of place in the paragraph), but I wanted to make sure people saw it and had a chance to comment. Does anyone object, or can Bk go ahead and re-cut the line? Blueboar 02:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we clarify what these objections are? I really don't think the sentence from the article BB quoted above is very clear and this discussion bears that out. I understand the complaint BB describes but I'm still not sure what MSJ is talking about. I think getting rid of the word "patrimony" might be a start; I followed that link and it was absolutely unhelpful. -- Bolognaking 22:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar 01:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Bolognaking 05:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me and please let me know if this is not an appropriate use, but I wondered if anyone can make heads or tails of this page. Features a masonic emblem and meaningless text in low contrast, but nothing else I can find. http://www.alltheconspiracies.com/
It's fun, even though I can't get past 'whatdoestheeyewant.html' because I suck. :( Jachin 01:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Just came across the proposed guideline: Wikipedia:Articles about ongoing enterprises and thought "hey, this relates to the various Freemasonry articles". It is an off shoot of the WP:BLP guideline that treats active organizations in a similar way to living persons. While not yet an official guideline, it is a step in the right direction. I thought I should share it with everyone. Blueboar 14:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I note that User:Mamalujo has returned and is seeking to insert a slight modification to the form of words related to the Morgan affair that we agreed was inappropriate in the article. Example from 14th July with associated discussion here.
ISTR that consensus was that it could reasonably go into the Morgan article but was probably too much detail in this article. ALR 19:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi All: Morgan was actually a Mason, although I am not sure he was a Mason of the Third Degree or Master Mason. My understanding is that Morgan was not so much anti-Masonic as greedy. My understanding is that Morgan submitted a "Masonic Manual" for printing and the outrage among Masons was more regarding the inaccuracies than the publication of "Masonic Secrets". The manual was so inaccurate that it has not survived the years when others have. In fact, the inaccuracies in Morgan’s manual led to the publication of several other manuals by Masons which were and are accurate enough to have survived. Duncan’s is probably the most respected and reprinted.
It should be also noted that in an age where methods of communication were very limited "secret" passwords and signs enabled people who did not know each other to "know" that they had each been chosen by unanimous decision of a group as being "on the square". Publication of the "secrets" of Masonry, which had happened before Morgan and did happen again after Morgan, destroyed the ability of Masons to instantly trust each other on contact. This kind of lost "instant trust" would upset people who depended on that trust. It does not take much common sense to understand that the people who would lose the most from this "lost trust" would be non-Masons who represented themselves as Masons after learning the secrets and then used that trust to engage in criminal activities such as confidence games. It would not surprise me if it was discovered that those who attacked Morgan and represented themselves as Masons were just con-men upset at losing their "game". Real Masons generally have friends and acquaintances in common and have no trouble establishing themselves without secrets, so the secrets are of value only to the “boy” in the man and certainly not worth killing over.
I suppose though that propaganda and conspiracy theories being as popular today as they were in Morgan’s day the idea that there are fraternal secrets worth killing over will always appeal to the kind of people who enjoy soap operas. There will always be those who take advantage of that love of soap operas for their own reasons and to achieve their own goals in spite of reality. Thanks JDAyer
I am missing some words about the Inquisition that murdered loads of Freemasons.
Catholicism and Freemasonry#Freemasonry and The Inquisiton - But this is also very short and is more apologetic. -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 19:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The case of Crudeli and Coustos is just one example in Portugal. Additionally to this "event", two more autodafés followed the same year. Persecution continued by Josef I. Maria I cooperated with the inquisitor Alvara José Radelhan and the Freemasons were committed the inquisition. Even before, the Grand Inquisitor Orbe y Larreategui put through an edict against Freemasonry and Philip V of Spain banned all Freemasons from Spain. After the second papal bull Ferdinand VII of Spain was accused by José Torrubi, censor and revisor of the highest authority in the Curia, so the King stated that he will "wipe out this order with all its reputation". Luckily he didn't follow Torrubi's demand to burn the Freemasons "for the greater glorification of the faith and to strengthen the faith in an autodafé".
In 1775, the inquisitor P. Mabile attacked the Mother Lodge in Avignon. In 1785, several Freemasons were burned in Venice and the state inquisitor Girolamo Diedo ordered to search for Freemasons in Verona. The French Worshipful Master of a Lodge was imprisoned. In Rome and Padua, there were other attacks. There was also a public Book burning of Cagliostro's book about Egyptian Freemasonry. On September 25, 1814, 25 Freemasons were incarcerated of the prison of the inquision for six years in Madrid. In 1815, five Freemasons were hanged, in 1819 two Freemasons died under torture in Madrid. In 1825, seven Freemasons were executed, the following February, Antonio Caro died with the shout "Long life Freemasonry" and after his execution they cut off his right hand.
Just to list a few examples of my masonic encyclopedia.
"Not the norm" and the inquision was just "involved in assisting the supression", they did not murder lots of Freemasons and this "did not play a much of roll in the developement of Freemasonry"? -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Freemasonry and the Catholic Church have been at odds for hundreds of years and this has undoubtedly resulted in the inquisition, torture and murder of Freemasons. Freemasons believe strongly in Freedom of Religion and Non-Denominational Public Education. Any review of the ritual of the Order of Demolay, a Masonic youth organization, gives the reader a good understanding of the historical position of Freemasonry on Public Education. The Freedom to worship “the One true God” as one pleases is evident in any common Masonic ritual, such as Duncan's. Since religious organizations derive their power and authority by controlling how "God" (or "Gods" if you prefer) must be worshipped the idea that you can worship as you choose will always be attacked by those to whom control of religion is a goal. For reference I suggest that you review the Catholic Church's political position concerning the United States during the time period from the mid 1770's to the early 1800's. Not commonly understood nor cited and well worth the research, although you will have to go a little deeper than common propaganda to gain an understanding of the politics and reality and that is difficult when working with an organization whose damage control operation has people referring to the “Spanish Inquisition”. I appreciate the fact that this section refers to the Inquisition as a whole.
That said, an overview should touch on and not detail any specific issue. I am of the opinion that a well written paragraph on the objection to the Freedom of Religion espoused by Freemasonry by a variety of strict religious organizations which commonly attack Freemasonry would suffice. Thanks JDAyer
Hey all. I'm just wondering if we have a list of things to resolve before we can resubmit this for featured article status. I'm willing to put in some time to make this page just sparkle and hope that one of the frequent contributors may be able to show me the task list. :) Thanks all! Bdevoe 18:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've been away for some time tending to my studies, only to return to find the opening few paragraphs of the FM article filled with drivel and uneccesary quadruple citations and other odd behaviour. Can someone fill me in as to why we're lowering article quality in essence whilst being overly-citatious?
Furthermore, all I have to say is wtf: --
Dr. Dieter Anton Binder,[8] a historian (and not a Freemason) who is a professor at the University of Graz (Austria) describes Freemasonry as a "confidential" society in contrast to a secret society in his book Die diskrete Gesellschaft.[9]
Who? Why? What? We care because? This applies to the article how? Too much discussion about 'secret society' 'society with secrets' for an opening paragraph, needs some hefty trimming. I'm guessing this has come about by visiting editors wanting to contribute things that -they- personally see as cornerstones and something that needs to be waved. Furthermore I am sure we have opposing POV anti-mason agenda pushers who're also adding to the disunity, confusion and mess of the article. :/
I'll go through and nerf out some (obvious) crap over the next few days and reduce citations to a single (the better of the options) citation. There is no need to list more than one reference for any statement that may be brought into question, if there are multiple, choose the higher quality of the lot and use it. Jachin 22:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed [1] the category "German Freemason" from Friedrich Schiller since there is no proof that he was a Freemason, although was in contact with Freemasons. The Freemason Christian Gottfried Körner asked his friend Schiller to write a poem for the Masonic table dinner of the Lodge „Zu den drei Schwertern“ in Dresden. This was the Ode to Joy.
There's still no proof that Ludwig van Beethoven was a Freemason, but there are rumors that he was a member until he was deaf. In 1955, the Freemason (Humanitas Lodge, Vienna) Richard Nikolaus Graf Coudenhove-Kalergi proposed Beethoven's Ode to Joy as the new European Anthem. -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Gosh! The same IP added those context-less race mixing cites, to that article of Graf von Coudenhove-Kalergi, too. :-( -- Liberal Freemason ( talk) 02:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the discussion here (as well as the discussion below it), the exact same policies that Opus Dei follows are precisely what Freemasonry follows, thus, Freemasonry is by evidence not a secret society. That should put that to rest. MSJapan 15:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I came across this article today: Lodge 2... I am not sure about the validity of some of the statements made (it needs citations), but I think it is someone's attempt to write a legit article. In any case it needs a lot of work. Blueboar 14:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Just saw the article on Freemasons at uncyclopedia... who told them the truth?... come on, fess up. Blueboar 14:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The Freemasons work today in the underground and finance themselves by selling certain authors explosive information, which are mostly absolute nonsense, nevertheless it can be used wonderful in a novel.