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I have been asked by one of the involved editors, to assist as an informal mediator. Before I commit the time and effort that will be required, and to help me understand the basis of dispute, I would appreciate if each side can make a succinct description of the dispute. Note that my acceptance of this role, would be very much based on the ability of editors to express their viewpoints concisely and devoid of personal comments about other editors' motivations, POVs or the like. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The dispute is that the members of Free Republic who are present here as editors think that the WP:RS and WP:V sources of criticism in the present article are unbalanced and paint FR in a negative light, and that this makes the article NNPOV. However they cannot find any WP:RS and WP:V articles praising FR to add. Therefore they want the criticism deleted. I believe that if the only reliable and verifiable sources paint a negative view of something, then that negative view must represent the truth, or at least, the mainstream point of view on that thing. Therefore all of the criticism ought to remain. Basically, they want the piece to read like a whitewashed bright and shiny PR piece. I refuse to let that happen. I also refuse to acknowledge a consensus made up of probable sock puppets. Especially who flout the rules of Wikipedia by deleting notifications properly placed on their pages in accord with WP:SOCK -- BenBurch 23:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, allowing a community of nearly 100,000 partisan, but law-abiding people to be characterized by the actions of a handful of criminals like Chad Castagana and a malcontent like the Bahraini individual. who demands nothing less than a federal government violation of the First Amendment rights of that entire community, is clearly a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Posting self-published articles by William Rivers Pitt and Michael Niman that do exactly that -- characterize Free Republic by the actions of a handful of criminals -- and were published on opposing partisan websites, is obviously a violation of WP:V#Self. It is true that Pitt does have a few works that are not self-published; but those aren't the ones that BenBurch and FAAFA keep re-posting. BenBurch and FAAFA have demanded that I obey the dictates of a consensus when it was the two of them against me; but now that it's five of us against two of them, they ignore it and revert the changes that the new consensus has created.
Regarding the claim that these edits would remove all criticism, BenBurch and FAAFA have themselves removed three paragraphs of material that I have absolutely no objection to. They cleverly moved it to a different section, to make it look as though the five of us don't want any criticism posted at all. These three paragraphs are: (1) the observation that many FR posts are devoted to the ridicule of people or causes that the authors find are anathema to conservatives; (2) Jim Robinson's own statements about gays, the teaching of evolution in our schools, and other topics, which illustrate his own extremism; and (3) a brief passage from an article in the Globe and Mail. Those belong in the article under "Criticism" because they are fair criticism of Free Republic. Throwing in every bad thing that ever happened that can be remotely linked with Free Republic unbalances the article.
I join the new members in requesting a complete investigation of BenBurch's sock puppet accusations. I believe that DP1976's claim will be found to be correct. -- BryanFromPalatine 00:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Comments What I think about Free Republic or what editors who happen to be members or supporters of Free Republic are not germaine to an encyclopedia that mainly relies on secondary and tertiary sources. Some of the editors new to this article and Wiki do not seem to realize this. The fact of the matter is that the 'majority view' of inclusionable RS V third party sources, including many conservative sources like Sean Hannity and others assert that Free Republic is an extremist fringe site and primarily note the extremism, death threats, and level of hateful vitriol. From 1999: "Drudge, Goldberg and several other [conservative] Free Republic stars have left; visits are reportedly down to less than half what they were a year ago; Free Republic's founding guru, Jim Robinson, has been sued by the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times; and a swelling number of haters have turned up the volume of death threats, gay-bashing, name-calling and conspiracy theories tying the father of Republican front-runner George W. Bush to drug-dealing by the CIA." I allege there is an active effort by certain editors (most of them who joined in the last three days) to introduce a POV that does not reflect reality, and the 'majority view' of RS V sources. These same editors are also making spurious claims to support their deletions like arguing that Will Pitt's articles on Truthout are self published. I look forward to Jossi's informal mediation. - F.A.A.F.A. 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments, although I would have preferred to have your comments " devoid of personal comments about other editors' motivations, POVs or the like." Nonetheless, I think that I have just enough information to try and lend a hand.
Some issues you may want to consider:
I would also want to dispel any misunderstandings about consensus. Consensus is not 5 to 3 or even 5 to 1 as I have seen people describing it in edit summaries and in this page. Consensus is the way that Wikipedia works: we building consensus through polite discussion and negotiation, with the caveat that editor's consensus cannot trump Wikipedia guidelines of WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR (or any other policy).
From reading the discussions in this page, one could assume that there are editors that may be associated with the website itself. If that is the case, a warning may be needed: you may be in a conflict of interest. (See WP:COI). A conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia to produce a neutral encyclopedia and the concerns or aims of editors who are involved with the subject of an article. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict can or might be justifiably assumed based on the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged.
Other editors may be "too close to the subject" (e.g. notable critics), and although this does not mean they are incapable of being neutral, they need to be aware that it may incline them in that direction.
As for the accusations of sockpuppetry, please note that it is remarkably simple to find out if there is such abuse (See WP:RFCU), and although using sockpuppets may be useful in some situations, using that as a subterfuge to bypass the three revert rule, is considered disruptive and may be basis from removing your editing privileges.
Hope the above is useful information.
Having said all of that, a first step for involved editors would be to agree on some basic ground rules:
In my experience, if such ground rules are not accepted, editing articles about which there is controversy and strong POVs, is not only very unpleasant, but seldom achieves anything (besides stress and anger, that is).
Once editors agree to these ground rules, we could proceed to do some research to find out what secondary sources say about this subject and clean up the article from poorly sourced material.
If there are any questions about the above, I will be happy to address them.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi you wrote:
My looking for RS V secondary sources has found that the vast majority of them (even from conservatives) are critical or negative and that, IMHO, this constitutes the 'majority view'. I'm know that FR has done some good things like send gifts to troops in Iraq, but these do not get covered by RS V secondary sources, as opposed to a Freeper making a death threat against the Clintons, the person that got Jenna Bush arrested for underage drinking, or the recent case of Chad Castagana the Freeper who mailed fake anthrax and death threats to 13 individuals. How is the editing of article handled when the vast majority of RS V secondary sources are negative and critical of the subject? Is this considered that 'majority view'? Thanks - F.A.A.F.A. 01:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi - I am not actually clear that this website is notable enough to warrant its own Wikipedia page at all. There are a very few sources, and as FAAFA has already noted, they are almost universally critical of the web site. I could support an AfD process for this page if you think that would be the best action to take, but I would prefer a neutral and unbiased article based upon the few RS and V sources we do have. I believe that we should find somebody with Lexis/Nexis access to see if there are some printed sources that cannot be found by internet search engines. -- BenBurch 01:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
As the site is really an open (although moderated) online forum, we should not attempt to describe the opinions of the posters, but the opinion of the site owners, their aims, objectives, etc. That is what may be so challenging with this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I observe that the objectionable material is being pared down, but not entirely removed. For example, the person who posted personal info about the manager of Chuy's was promptly banned, even though the information was in the public domain (due to bankruptcy filings posted at http://www.thesmokinggun.com ); the fact that he was banned has been somehow overlooked. But the fact that he did briefly participate at FR is stated clearly. Jossi, I will restate my objection: that the inclusion of such material unfairly identifies nearly 100,000 law-abiding people with the misconduct of a tiny number of outcasts. It is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If John Wayne Gacy, William Jefferson, Mel Reynolds, Austin J. Murphy, Dan Rostenkowski and the other 19 Democratic congressmen convicted of crimes in the past 40 years don't belong in the Democratic Party (United States) article, then the Chuy's incident, the Chad Castagana information and the death threats to the Clintons don't belong here. No one who engaged in that misconduct held positions of trust or authority at FR, and all of them were banned promptly; Castagana has been banned repeatedly. The website's TOS forbids such misconduct. What more can a website's administrators do except forbid misconduct, and ban those who are guilty of such misconduct? -- BryanFromPalatine 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That notice properly links to the evidence page as required by the rules. If you delete that sock puppet investigation notice again, I will see to it that you are blocked. I have followed all of the forms of this process. You do the same. -- BenBurch 23:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe that RWR would remove these, but here they are again, with sources.
His 1999 views:
"the top extremist, in the estimate of the disenchanted, is its founder, Robinson, a wheelchair-bound Navy veteran of the Vietnam War who operates the site with his son and an unpaid helper from his home in Fresno, Calif. When Robinson unleashed a windy jeremiad linking Texas Gov. Bush with alleged CIA-connected drug-running under his father, a former CIA director (1975-77), vice president (1981-89) and president of the United States (1989-93), all cyber-hell broke loose.
Meanwhile, Robinson says he'll continue to make his own points about the Bush-CIA past.
"The theories of the CIA's involvement with drug runners and terrorists in Southeast Asia and Central and South America are well known and have been around for many years," he answered a query from Salon News. "And many of the stories we've heard are probably true or at least are grounded in fact and I, for one, would like to get to the bottom of it and put a stop to it."
Here's a 1999 post by Jim Robinson crticising George Bush:
His post 9/11 views: (his words)
"Lots of grumbling lately about deleted posts. Well, my friends, the simple truth is the game has changed. We are now at war. We have been attacked by a vicious cold-blooded force of international terrorists who want to destroy our nation, our freedom and our way of life. There is no doubt about this. Knowing this, I am alarmed to read some of the stuff that has been posted to FR in the last few days. This is not the time to raise doubts about our leaders. This is not the time to raise conspiracy theories. This is not the time to second guess our intelligence agencies. This is war. This is survival of our way of life. We must unite behind our Commander-in-chief and do all we possibly can to support him and our war efforts. We do not have a choice in this matter. [...]" [www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/602045/posts?page=314 SOURCE]
CA 2003 "Bill and Hillary Clinton and their minions still wield a tremendous amount of power and influence over the Democrat Party, the socialist movement and the national press. Their goals are to completely eliminate our rights to free speech, free religion, freedom to keep and bear arms, etc., and these are just for starters."
"I believe the overall goal of their movement is to completely do away with the U.S. Constitution and in its place, install socialist/totalitarian rule over America. Furthermore, I believe they wish to do away with our national sovereignty altogether and subject America to domination by the U.N. and other world bodies."
"Now you may call me a nutcase if you wish, but that's the way I see it....I believe that as long as Bill and Hillary Clinton and their like minded socialist minions have any influence or power over the government or either of the two major political parties, our nation and all of our freedoms are in extreme danger.
[www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1004710/posts source]
Are these relevant? Do they reflect the views of FR? If Jim alleged in 1999 that Bush I and II were involved CIA drug running, does that make him a Conspiracy Theorist? - F.A.A.F.A. 04:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: When discussing living people, please be aware of our policy about living people. Thank you for your consideration to this matter. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed all unverified quotes you assert are from Jim Robinson per WP:BLP. Do not reinsert them in the article or the talk page until you provide reliable sources linking to them.
I have started a page at Talk:Free_Republic/Informal_mediation to keep track of our progress and record agreements.
The next steps I propose is as follows:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You should "Stubify" the current article immediately. Then start replacing sections that everyone can agree on. It looks like more than half of the article isn't even disputed. 12ptHelvetica 00:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
First, let me thank you for your prompt and positive response so far. Now, we need to roll our sleeves and do some copyediting. A proposed structure is now available at Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, as follows
My proposal to move forward with the editing of these section is to use the technique of writing for the enemy. The idea is that supporters of Free Republic amongst involved editors, get to edit the section on "Controversial Aspects", and critics of Free Republic get to edit the Origin, Jargon, and Political influence sections. We will do this over the next two days, with the understanding that editors will not revert any other editor's contributions in the Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, and will refrain from editing those sections not assigned to them.
This may be a bit unorthodox, but will give editors a chance to show/sharpen their skills in NPOV editing, and will assist greatly in moving towards consensus. Please avoid commenting on other editors edits for the next 48 hrs, after which point we will caucus in talk page and assess the progress we have made. Needles to say, make efforts to make your edits compliant with our content policies and use as brilliant a prose as you can.
If you have any questions for me, please place them at Talk:Free_Republic/Questions for informal mediator
Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
When adding references to the article in the Sandbox please use the appropriate templates:
Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Bryan. I would advise some patience, and if the 48hrs expire, we could extend it for another 48hrs. We are all volunteers and sometimes things happen that do not allow us to indulge in Wikipedia editing. There is no rush, is it? The whole idea is to gain buy-in from all editors for the result of collaboration by actively engaging in editing. Lack of collaboration could mean two things (a) some people are busy and did not have the time ( WP:AGF); or (b) By not participating they "reserve the right" to attack the article later when we are done with the editing. Let's assume good faith and make time and space so that all editors engage. If they do not engage now, and engage later as per (b), we will all know how to deal with it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Lawyer2B, I am opposed to including the "Bahrain Centre for Human Rights," "Death Threats" and "Cyber Stalking" sections as violations of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. The entire organization should not be characterized by the actions of a handful of eccentrics who violated FR policy and were immediately banned for it. FR has done everything that any reasonable person could expect to protect its reputation. Also, I think the lawsuit by The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times might deserve further scrutiny. The plaintiffs won over $2,000,000 through summary judgment; and then it was appealed; and after oral arguments but before the appellate court decided the case, the newspapers' attorneys settled for $10,000. That's a reduction of over 99.5% of the summary judgment. Something happened in the appellate court that scared the hell out of the newspapers' attorneys. They thought they were going to lose. That is the only possible explanation for a reduction of over 99.5% in a negotiated settlement. -- BryanFromPalatine 02:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
A summary of the these controversial posts can be added to the "Controversial actions by members" without having subsections for each case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI)I urge the editors here to look at the articles on Democratic Underground and Daily Kos - they both include claims about contoversial statements and actions by their members - BECAUSE these statements or actions were so notable that OTHER sources documented them. The inclusion of info on Castagana, Chuy's, Islamophobia and Clinton Death threats is similarly documented and inclusionable. I encourage Bryan to look to articles like THESE and other political blogs-forums for precedent, not the article on the democratic party which has no similarity to an article on a blog. - F.A.A.F.A. 21:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI) In those links Fahey seems to be alleging some kind of high level government, or CIA conspiracy..... just like Jim Robinson did!
"the top extremist, in the estimate of the disenchanted, is its founder, Robinson, a wheelchair-bound Navy veteran of the Vietnam War who operates the site with his son and an unpaid helper from his home in Fresno, Calif. When Robinson unleashed a windy jeremiad linking Texas Gov. Bush with alleged CIA-connected drug-running under his father, a former CIA director (1975-77), vice president (1981-89) and president of the United States (1989-93), all cyber-hell broke loose.
Meanwhile, Robinson says he'll continue to make his own points about the Bush-CIA past.
"The theories of the CIA's involvement with drug runners and terrorists in Southeast Asia and Central and South America are well known and have been around for many years," he answered a query from Salon News. "And many of the stories we've heard are probably true or at least are grounded in fact and I, for one, would like to get to the bottom of it and put a stop to it." SOURCE - F.A.A.F.A. 02:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
We agreed a few days ago that "supporters of Free Republic amongst involved editors, get to edit the section on 'Controversial Aspects', and critics of Free Republic get to edit the Origin, Jargon, and Political influence sections."
In checking the status of Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, I see that the sections "Jargon, modus operandi and user terminology" and "Political influence" are still void of content.
How do you want to proceed from here? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the empty section written by critics as agreed. Then we can take a look and engage on a debate based on the material available in the sandbox. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
FR only banned castagana after he was arrested. Wrong. FR repeatedly banned Castagana. The last time they did it was indeed at the time he was arrested. He was posting on FR with a sig line that said name your poison ... In your neighborhood bar, that means, "What can I get you to drink, Sir? Your usual Jack and Coke?" By itself that remark means nothing. ... while mocking the people he himself had sent the terrorist threats to ... Mockery is a cornerstone of DU and Kos. ... and making light of people receiving death threats filled with what they thought was anthrax. Indefensible! Castagana's overall conduct is indeed indefensible. But did he reveal, in his FR posts, that he had sent the death threats?
There is no proof or even any valid suspicion that the Chuy's info was posted by a DU Mole. Ask the Sysops and administrators at FR. Believe it or not, when you click on a link at DU that takes you to FR and you start posting, the FR Sysops can tell that you're from DU. It's a software thing, maybe you wouldn't understand. DU locked the threads on the tsunami conspiracy theories, and actively DIScourages such posts see not 'embraces' them ... But did they ban the members who posted tsunami theories?
I will not add to this re-write until all editors agree that notable posts and actions which were covered by RS V secondary sources will be included to roughly the same extent that they are covered in other similar articles, like DU and Kos. Well, if you want to hold the editing process hostage to your demands, I don't think you're participating in the mediation process in good faith. But let's do this. The section containing Jim Robinson's controversial posts is 112 words long. The section containing the MSM criticism in the Globe and Mail is 118 words long. The section containing the LA Times lawsuit is 267 words long. Let's follow the 25% rule you suggested.
FAAFA, you need to write 1,491 words of nothing but sweetness and light about FR to match all of the criticism and controversy that we're already including. If you can write 1,581 words, we might squeeze in a 30-word sentence about the Chuy's incident, the death threat incident, and the fact that the people who posted that stuff were banned.
One editor has repeatedly asserted that such criticism will be limited to 'one sentence'. I am not going to participate in an article that is designed to 'whitewash' Free Republic. And I'm not going to participate in an article that is designed as a hit piece against Free Republic -- which is exactly what this was until I showed up. If we can all agree to that, I'm amenable to moving the criticism out of the lead paragragh ... That isn't even negotiable. It is a precondition to anything else, since the Kos and DU articles never contained such negative press in their lead paragraphs. I'm removing the negative press from the lead right freaking now, along with your ridiculous Todd Brendan Fahey sourcing, and I never want to see it there again.
Huh? What statements by Jim Robinson? ... Where are these 'statements by JimRob' you refer to? Somebody took them out. I've just put them back in. Robinson hangs himself with his own rope. He is the founder of the website and it reflects his personal views. His remarks belong in the article. Everyone agreed? Wrong! RW and L2B DON'T think that Jim Rob's views and comments belong in the article. RWR is a DU member with thousands of posts, just like you and BenBurch. [6] He shouldn't even be working on what Tex calls "C&C." Furthermore, RWR and L2b are outvoted by me, 12pt and Tex. And by you. After all, the person who first put Robinson's comments into this article was named FAAFA. I know I can count on your vote in consensus, since you've previously fought so hard to include them. Thank you. -- BryanFromPalatine 02:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI) I'm officially withdrawing from the re-write and mediation. Write whatever you want. I'll edit it after. - F.A.A.F.A. 05:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Update: IMHO this mediation has been 'hijacked' and is no longer workable. When and if some semblance of order returns, I may participate further. - F.A.A.F.A. 19:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I have been asked by one of the involved editors, to assist as an informal mediator. Before I commit the time and effort that will be required, and to help me understand the basis of dispute, I would appreciate if each side can make a succinct description of the dispute. Note that my acceptance of this role, would be very much based on the ability of editors to express their viewpoints concisely and devoid of personal comments about other editors' motivations, POVs or the like. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The dispute is that the members of Free Republic who are present here as editors think that the WP:RS and WP:V sources of criticism in the present article are unbalanced and paint FR in a negative light, and that this makes the article NNPOV. However they cannot find any WP:RS and WP:V articles praising FR to add. Therefore they want the criticism deleted. I believe that if the only reliable and verifiable sources paint a negative view of something, then that negative view must represent the truth, or at least, the mainstream point of view on that thing. Therefore all of the criticism ought to remain. Basically, they want the piece to read like a whitewashed bright and shiny PR piece. I refuse to let that happen. I also refuse to acknowledge a consensus made up of probable sock puppets. Especially who flout the rules of Wikipedia by deleting notifications properly placed on their pages in accord with WP:SOCK -- BenBurch 23:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, allowing a community of nearly 100,000 partisan, but law-abiding people to be characterized by the actions of a handful of criminals like Chad Castagana and a malcontent like the Bahraini individual. who demands nothing less than a federal government violation of the First Amendment rights of that entire community, is clearly a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Posting self-published articles by William Rivers Pitt and Michael Niman that do exactly that -- characterize Free Republic by the actions of a handful of criminals -- and were published on opposing partisan websites, is obviously a violation of WP:V#Self. It is true that Pitt does have a few works that are not self-published; but those aren't the ones that BenBurch and FAAFA keep re-posting. BenBurch and FAAFA have demanded that I obey the dictates of a consensus when it was the two of them against me; but now that it's five of us against two of them, they ignore it and revert the changes that the new consensus has created.
Regarding the claim that these edits would remove all criticism, BenBurch and FAAFA have themselves removed three paragraphs of material that I have absolutely no objection to. They cleverly moved it to a different section, to make it look as though the five of us don't want any criticism posted at all. These three paragraphs are: (1) the observation that many FR posts are devoted to the ridicule of people or causes that the authors find are anathema to conservatives; (2) Jim Robinson's own statements about gays, the teaching of evolution in our schools, and other topics, which illustrate his own extremism; and (3) a brief passage from an article in the Globe and Mail. Those belong in the article under "Criticism" because they are fair criticism of Free Republic. Throwing in every bad thing that ever happened that can be remotely linked with Free Republic unbalances the article.
I join the new members in requesting a complete investigation of BenBurch's sock puppet accusations. I believe that DP1976's claim will be found to be correct. -- BryanFromPalatine 00:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Comments What I think about Free Republic or what editors who happen to be members or supporters of Free Republic are not germaine to an encyclopedia that mainly relies on secondary and tertiary sources. Some of the editors new to this article and Wiki do not seem to realize this. The fact of the matter is that the 'majority view' of inclusionable RS V third party sources, including many conservative sources like Sean Hannity and others assert that Free Republic is an extremist fringe site and primarily note the extremism, death threats, and level of hateful vitriol. From 1999: "Drudge, Goldberg and several other [conservative] Free Republic stars have left; visits are reportedly down to less than half what they were a year ago; Free Republic's founding guru, Jim Robinson, has been sued by the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times; and a swelling number of haters have turned up the volume of death threats, gay-bashing, name-calling and conspiracy theories tying the father of Republican front-runner George W. Bush to drug-dealing by the CIA." I allege there is an active effort by certain editors (most of them who joined in the last three days) to introduce a POV that does not reflect reality, and the 'majority view' of RS V sources. These same editors are also making spurious claims to support their deletions like arguing that Will Pitt's articles on Truthout are self published. I look forward to Jossi's informal mediation. - F.A.A.F.A. 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments, although I would have preferred to have your comments " devoid of personal comments about other editors' motivations, POVs or the like." Nonetheless, I think that I have just enough information to try and lend a hand.
Some issues you may want to consider:
I would also want to dispel any misunderstandings about consensus. Consensus is not 5 to 3 or even 5 to 1 as I have seen people describing it in edit summaries and in this page. Consensus is the way that Wikipedia works: we building consensus through polite discussion and negotiation, with the caveat that editor's consensus cannot trump Wikipedia guidelines of WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR (or any other policy).
From reading the discussions in this page, one could assume that there are editors that may be associated with the website itself. If that is the case, a warning may be needed: you may be in a conflict of interest. (See WP:COI). A conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia to produce a neutral encyclopedia and the concerns or aims of editors who are involved with the subject of an article. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict can or might be justifiably assumed based on the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged.
Other editors may be "too close to the subject" (e.g. notable critics), and although this does not mean they are incapable of being neutral, they need to be aware that it may incline them in that direction.
As for the accusations of sockpuppetry, please note that it is remarkably simple to find out if there is such abuse (See WP:RFCU), and although using sockpuppets may be useful in some situations, using that as a subterfuge to bypass the three revert rule, is considered disruptive and may be basis from removing your editing privileges.
Hope the above is useful information.
Having said all of that, a first step for involved editors would be to agree on some basic ground rules:
In my experience, if such ground rules are not accepted, editing articles about which there is controversy and strong POVs, is not only very unpleasant, but seldom achieves anything (besides stress and anger, that is).
Once editors agree to these ground rules, we could proceed to do some research to find out what secondary sources say about this subject and clean up the article from poorly sourced material.
If there are any questions about the above, I will be happy to address them.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi you wrote:
My looking for RS V secondary sources has found that the vast majority of them (even from conservatives) are critical or negative and that, IMHO, this constitutes the 'majority view'. I'm know that FR has done some good things like send gifts to troops in Iraq, but these do not get covered by RS V secondary sources, as opposed to a Freeper making a death threat against the Clintons, the person that got Jenna Bush arrested for underage drinking, or the recent case of Chad Castagana the Freeper who mailed fake anthrax and death threats to 13 individuals. How is the editing of article handled when the vast majority of RS V secondary sources are negative and critical of the subject? Is this considered that 'majority view'? Thanks - F.A.A.F.A. 01:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Jossi - I am not actually clear that this website is notable enough to warrant its own Wikipedia page at all. There are a very few sources, and as FAAFA has already noted, they are almost universally critical of the web site. I could support an AfD process for this page if you think that would be the best action to take, but I would prefer a neutral and unbiased article based upon the few RS and V sources we do have. I believe that we should find somebody with Lexis/Nexis access to see if there are some printed sources that cannot be found by internet search engines. -- BenBurch 01:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
As the site is really an open (although moderated) online forum, we should not attempt to describe the opinions of the posters, but the opinion of the site owners, their aims, objectives, etc. That is what may be so challenging with this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I observe that the objectionable material is being pared down, but not entirely removed. For example, the person who posted personal info about the manager of Chuy's was promptly banned, even though the information was in the public domain (due to bankruptcy filings posted at http://www.thesmokinggun.com ); the fact that he was banned has been somehow overlooked. But the fact that he did briefly participate at FR is stated clearly. Jossi, I will restate my objection: that the inclusion of such material unfairly identifies nearly 100,000 law-abiding people with the misconduct of a tiny number of outcasts. It is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If John Wayne Gacy, William Jefferson, Mel Reynolds, Austin J. Murphy, Dan Rostenkowski and the other 19 Democratic congressmen convicted of crimes in the past 40 years don't belong in the Democratic Party (United States) article, then the Chuy's incident, the Chad Castagana information and the death threats to the Clintons don't belong here. No one who engaged in that misconduct held positions of trust or authority at FR, and all of them were banned promptly; Castagana has been banned repeatedly. The website's TOS forbids such misconduct. What more can a website's administrators do except forbid misconduct, and ban those who are guilty of such misconduct? -- BryanFromPalatine 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That notice properly links to the evidence page as required by the rules. If you delete that sock puppet investigation notice again, I will see to it that you are blocked. I have followed all of the forms of this process. You do the same. -- BenBurch 23:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe that RWR would remove these, but here they are again, with sources.
His 1999 views:
"the top extremist, in the estimate of the disenchanted, is its founder, Robinson, a wheelchair-bound Navy veteran of the Vietnam War who operates the site with his son and an unpaid helper from his home in Fresno, Calif. When Robinson unleashed a windy jeremiad linking Texas Gov. Bush with alleged CIA-connected drug-running under his father, a former CIA director (1975-77), vice president (1981-89) and president of the United States (1989-93), all cyber-hell broke loose.
Meanwhile, Robinson says he'll continue to make his own points about the Bush-CIA past.
"The theories of the CIA's involvement with drug runners and terrorists in Southeast Asia and Central and South America are well known and have been around for many years," he answered a query from Salon News. "And many of the stories we've heard are probably true or at least are grounded in fact and I, for one, would like to get to the bottom of it and put a stop to it."
Here's a 1999 post by Jim Robinson crticising George Bush:
His post 9/11 views: (his words)
"Lots of grumbling lately about deleted posts. Well, my friends, the simple truth is the game has changed. We are now at war. We have been attacked by a vicious cold-blooded force of international terrorists who want to destroy our nation, our freedom and our way of life. There is no doubt about this. Knowing this, I am alarmed to read some of the stuff that has been posted to FR in the last few days. This is not the time to raise doubts about our leaders. This is not the time to raise conspiracy theories. This is not the time to second guess our intelligence agencies. This is war. This is survival of our way of life. We must unite behind our Commander-in-chief and do all we possibly can to support him and our war efforts. We do not have a choice in this matter. [...]" [www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/602045/posts?page=314 SOURCE]
CA 2003 "Bill and Hillary Clinton and their minions still wield a tremendous amount of power and influence over the Democrat Party, the socialist movement and the national press. Their goals are to completely eliminate our rights to free speech, free religion, freedom to keep and bear arms, etc., and these are just for starters."
"I believe the overall goal of their movement is to completely do away with the U.S. Constitution and in its place, install socialist/totalitarian rule over America. Furthermore, I believe they wish to do away with our national sovereignty altogether and subject America to domination by the U.N. and other world bodies."
"Now you may call me a nutcase if you wish, but that's the way I see it....I believe that as long as Bill and Hillary Clinton and their like minded socialist minions have any influence or power over the government or either of the two major political parties, our nation and all of our freedoms are in extreme danger.
[www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1004710/posts source]
Are these relevant? Do they reflect the views of FR? If Jim alleged in 1999 that Bush I and II were involved CIA drug running, does that make him a Conspiracy Theorist? - F.A.A.F.A. 04:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: When discussing living people, please be aware of our policy about living people. Thank you for your consideration to this matter. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed all unverified quotes you assert are from Jim Robinson per WP:BLP. Do not reinsert them in the article or the talk page until you provide reliable sources linking to them.
I have started a page at Talk:Free_Republic/Informal_mediation to keep track of our progress and record agreements.
The next steps I propose is as follows:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You should "Stubify" the current article immediately. Then start replacing sections that everyone can agree on. It looks like more than half of the article isn't even disputed. 12ptHelvetica 00:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
First, let me thank you for your prompt and positive response so far. Now, we need to roll our sleeves and do some copyediting. A proposed structure is now available at Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, as follows
My proposal to move forward with the editing of these section is to use the technique of writing for the enemy. The idea is that supporters of Free Republic amongst involved editors, get to edit the section on "Controversial Aspects", and critics of Free Republic get to edit the Origin, Jargon, and Political influence sections. We will do this over the next two days, with the understanding that editors will not revert any other editor's contributions in the Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, and will refrain from editing those sections not assigned to them.
This may be a bit unorthodox, but will give editors a chance to show/sharpen their skills in NPOV editing, and will assist greatly in moving towards consensus. Please avoid commenting on other editors edits for the next 48 hrs, after which point we will caucus in talk page and assess the progress we have made. Needles to say, make efforts to make your edits compliant with our content policies and use as brilliant a prose as you can.
If you have any questions for me, please place them at Talk:Free_Republic/Questions for informal mediator
Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
When adding references to the article in the Sandbox please use the appropriate templates:
Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Bryan. I would advise some patience, and if the 48hrs expire, we could extend it for another 48hrs. We are all volunteers and sometimes things happen that do not allow us to indulge in Wikipedia editing. There is no rush, is it? The whole idea is to gain buy-in from all editors for the result of collaboration by actively engaging in editing. Lack of collaboration could mean two things (a) some people are busy and did not have the time ( WP:AGF); or (b) By not participating they "reserve the right" to attack the article later when we are done with the editing. Let's assume good faith and make time and space so that all editors engage. If they do not engage now, and engage later as per (b), we will all know how to deal with it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Lawyer2B, I am opposed to including the "Bahrain Centre for Human Rights," "Death Threats" and "Cyber Stalking" sections as violations of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. The entire organization should not be characterized by the actions of a handful of eccentrics who violated FR policy and were immediately banned for it. FR has done everything that any reasonable person could expect to protect its reputation. Also, I think the lawsuit by The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times might deserve further scrutiny. The plaintiffs won over $2,000,000 through summary judgment; and then it was appealed; and after oral arguments but before the appellate court decided the case, the newspapers' attorneys settled for $10,000. That's a reduction of over 99.5% of the summary judgment. Something happened in the appellate court that scared the hell out of the newspapers' attorneys. They thought they were going to lose. That is the only possible explanation for a reduction of over 99.5% in a negotiated settlement. -- BryanFromPalatine 02:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
A summary of the these controversial posts can be added to the "Controversial actions by members" without having subsections for each case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI)I urge the editors here to look at the articles on Democratic Underground and Daily Kos - they both include claims about contoversial statements and actions by their members - BECAUSE these statements or actions were so notable that OTHER sources documented them. The inclusion of info on Castagana, Chuy's, Islamophobia and Clinton Death threats is similarly documented and inclusionable. I encourage Bryan to look to articles like THESE and other political blogs-forums for precedent, not the article on the democratic party which has no similarity to an article on a blog. - F.A.A.F.A. 21:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI) In those links Fahey seems to be alleging some kind of high level government, or CIA conspiracy..... just like Jim Robinson did!
"the top extremist, in the estimate of the disenchanted, is its founder, Robinson, a wheelchair-bound Navy veteran of the Vietnam War who operates the site with his son and an unpaid helper from his home in Fresno, Calif. When Robinson unleashed a windy jeremiad linking Texas Gov. Bush with alleged CIA-connected drug-running under his father, a former CIA director (1975-77), vice president (1981-89) and president of the United States (1989-93), all cyber-hell broke loose.
Meanwhile, Robinson says he'll continue to make his own points about the Bush-CIA past.
"The theories of the CIA's involvement with drug runners and terrorists in Southeast Asia and Central and South America are well known and have been around for many years," he answered a query from Salon News. "And many of the stories we've heard are probably true or at least are grounded in fact and I, for one, would like to get to the bottom of it and put a stop to it." SOURCE - F.A.A.F.A. 02:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
We agreed a few days ago that "supporters of Free Republic amongst involved editors, get to edit the section on 'Controversial Aspects', and critics of Free Republic get to edit the Origin, Jargon, and Political influence sections."
In checking the status of Talk:Free Republic/Sandbox, I see that the sections "Jargon, modus operandi and user terminology" and "Political influence" are still void of content.
How do you want to proceed from here? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see the empty section written by critics as agreed. Then we can take a look and engage on a debate based on the material available in the sandbox. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
FR only banned castagana after he was arrested. Wrong. FR repeatedly banned Castagana. The last time they did it was indeed at the time he was arrested. He was posting on FR with a sig line that said name your poison ... In your neighborhood bar, that means, "What can I get you to drink, Sir? Your usual Jack and Coke?" By itself that remark means nothing. ... while mocking the people he himself had sent the terrorist threats to ... Mockery is a cornerstone of DU and Kos. ... and making light of people receiving death threats filled with what they thought was anthrax. Indefensible! Castagana's overall conduct is indeed indefensible. But did he reveal, in his FR posts, that he had sent the death threats?
There is no proof or even any valid suspicion that the Chuy's info was posted by a DU Mole. Ask the Sysops and administrators at FR. Believe it or not, when you click on a link at DU that takes you to FR and you start posting, the FR Sysops can tell that you're from DU. It's a software thing, maybe you wouldn't understand. DU locked the threads on the tsunami conspiracy theories, and actively DIScourages such posts see not 'embraces' them ... But did they ban the members who posted tsunami theories?
I will not add to this re-write until all editors agree that notable posts and actions which were covered by RS V secondary sources will be included to roughly the same extent that they are covered in other similar articles, like DU and Kos. Well, if you want to hold the editing process hostage to your demands, I don't think you're participating in the mediation process in good faith. But let's do this. The section containing Jim Robinson's controversial posts is 112 words long. The section containing the MSM criticism in the Globe and Mail is 118 words long. The section containing the LA Times lawsuit is 267 words long. Let's follow the 25% rule you suggested.
FAAFA, you need to write 1,491 words of nothing but sweetness and light about FR to match all of the criticism and controversy that we're already including. If you can write 1,581 words, we might squeeze in a 30-word sentence about the Chuy's incident, the death threat incident, and the fact that the people who posted that stuff were banned.
One editor has repeatedly asserted that such criticism will be limited to 'one sentence'. I am not going to participate in an article that is designed to 'whitewash' Free Republic. And I'm not going to participate in an article that is designed as a hit piece against Free Republic -- which is exactly what this was until I showed up. If we can all agree to that, I'm amenable to moving the criticism out of the lead paragragh ... That isn't even negotiable. It is a precondition to anything else, since the Kos and DU articles never contained such negative press in their lead paragraphs. I'm removing the negative press from the lead right freaking now, along with your ridiculous Todd Brendan Fahey sourcing, and I never want to see it there again.
Huh? What statements by Jim Robinson? ... Where are these 'statements by JimRob' you refer to? Somebody took them out. I've just put them back in. Robinson hangs himself with his own rope. He is the founder of the website and it reflects his personal views. His remarks belong in the article. Everyone agreed? Wrong! RW and L2B DON'T think that Jim Rob's views and comments belong in the article. RWR is a DU member with thousands of posts, just like you and BenBurch. [6] He shouldn't even be working on what Tex calls "C&C." Furthermore, RWR and L2b are outvoted by me, 12pt and Tex. And by you. After all, the person who first put Robinson's comments into this article was named FAAFA. I know I can count on your vote in consensus, since you've previously fought so hard to include them. Thank you. -- BryanFromPalatine 02:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
(UI) I'm officially withdrawing from the re-write and mediation. Write whatever you want. I'll edit it after. - F.A.A.F.A. 05:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Update: IMHO this mediation has been 'hijacked' and is no longer workable. When and if some semblance of order returns, I may participate further. - F.A.A.F.A. 19:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)