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What do you mean "there's some evidence" he was an athiest. Every book, article and paper written on him mentions that fact that he ws an athiest. This namby-pamby NPOV, weakly stated bollocks completely changes the charcteristic of the nature of his (or lack of) religious faith. The staement is almost as stupid as the earlier one identifying him as a Roman Catholic.
The article refers to the "11th East Surrey Regiment". This is confusing. Does it mean 11th Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment? DuncanHill ( talk) 14:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
There is some redundancy and somewhat POV language about him I cleared up. Also, the article referenced the North King St. Murders as part of his indictment, but wasn't that a separate incident entirely, one which he was not involved? Also, should he have his own article? We have enough reliable sources on him for a stub. Not sure if there's enough that isn;t already included here, however. - R. fiend ( talk) 19:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I have read and re-read a few times the " Arrest and murder" section, and I just can't find at what point he was actually murdered. The section implies, somewhat loosely, that Bowen-Colthurst's raiding party was indeed attacked (as he perhaps hoped), and that Bowen-Colthurst himself then shot Sheehy-Skeffington. (When? Where?) The last paragraph of the section doesn't specifically say this; it indicates that Bowen-Colthurst shot several other people in an unrelated situation. Unfortunately, the only reference in this section is not available. Could someone with knowledge (and references!) clarify? HorsePunchKid ( talk) 2009-03-11 03:17:06 Z
Also during the Easter Rising, members of the British 11th East Surrey Regiment at Portobello Bridge arrested the pacifist Francis Sheehy-Skeffington on 25 April for no obvious reason, while returning to his home in Rathmines. He was taken to Portobello Barracks, where he was held as an enemy sympathizer. Later that evening, he was taken out as a hostage with a raiding party led by Captain J.C. Bowen-Colthurst to the home and shop of Alderman James Kelly, at the corner of Camden Street and Harcourt Road (from which the name "Kelly's Corner" derives). Mistaking the Alderman (a conservative) for a rebel, the soldiers destroyed the shop with grenades. On the way back to Rathmines, Skeffington was the witness to two murders committed by Bowen-Colthurst and his party on two unarmed civilians (one of them a 17-year-old boy from Mountpleasant Avenue returning from Rathmines church).
The following morning Bowen-Colthurst ordered his sergeant to organise a firing party to shoot dead Sheehy-Skeffington and two pro-British journalists—Thomas Dixon (a disabled Scotsman) and Patrick McIntyre—who were unlucky enough to have been in Kelly's shop when it was raided. The three were shot in the back as they walked towards a wall in the barracks yard. Hohenloh 03:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Sadly there are still (30 March 2016) a number of inaccuracies and citation errors about Captain John Bowen-Colthurst in this article, but I am not technically competent enough to fix them. I would recommend more technically adept, prospective contributors read either Bryan Bacon's ebook A Terrible Duty or the forthcoming book by the historian, James Taylor, Guilty But Insane, before amending the article. CanK9 ( talk) 00:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Re Captain John Bowen-Colthurst
My spouse suggests that even if I cannot add content to the article, I should at least spell out its possible errors, so that other more technically adept contributors could amend the article. So here goes:
The Simon Royal Commission limited itself to investigating the deaths of Jim Coade, Thomas Dickson, Patrick MacIntyre, and Francis Sheehy Skeffington.
Colthurst was released from Broadmoor (under medical supervision) on 21 January 1918. He emigrated to Terrace, British Columbia in April 1919. Besides Terrace, he lived in Sooke (near Victoria) from 1929-1942, and in Naramata (near Penticton) from 1942 till his death in 1965.
There appears to be no mention of his obituary in either of the sources cited in the Wiki article. (It would be really helpful if Wiki articles when citing books,could include page numbers in their references.) CanK9 ( talk) 03:38, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
In the 'Aftermath' section, it is stated that Bowen-Colthurst's obituary omitted mention of the Easter Rising. The citations given for this information are Dara Redmond's Irish Times 26 August 2006 article and Max Caulfield's book "The Easter Rebellion". Neither citation is correct.
Obituaries appeared in The Vancouver Sun, 15 December 1965 ("Warrior Dies") and in The Penticton Herald, 14 December 1965 ("Colorful Figure Dies, Was Original Socred"). The fact that The Vancouver Sun did not mention the Rising was noted in Bryan Bacon's book "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst", which reproduced (with permission) the full Vancouver Sun obituary on its first page. CanK9 ( talk) 21:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I have now added in the details about Bowen-Colthurst's later years, provided by user CanK9, into a footnote. And cited them as referenced by CanK9. Wwallacee ( talk) 05:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The section on Sheehy-Skeffington's death and its aftermath now takes up two thirds of the article, making the article totally lopsided. I don't agree with the assertion recently added to the lead that he is principally remembered for his killing. He is notable as a suffragist, as a pacifist and as a nationalist. Possibly that section should be split off into a separate article, Death of Francis Sheehy-Skeffington. -- Scolaire ( talk) 14:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Can anyone find further verification on the shooting of Richard O'Carroll by Bowen-Colthurst? This is not mentioned in the Royal Commission Report, but I have seen it cited in several sources. I will try to add some more citations. But none of these sources cites its own source. Wwallacee ( talk) 18:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Neil Richardson in his "According to their lights: stories of Irishmen in the British Army, Easter 1916" gives an account of O'Carroll's death. Mr Richardson's source (unpublished) is Gerald Keatinge's "Some experiences of a cadet during the Irish Rebellion of Easter Week, 1916". Some of the details are a bit hazy (eg Who did the shooting?)but the account rings true. Timothy Healing raised the issue of O'Carroll's murder on the first day (August 23) of the Royal Commission, but Sir John Simon stopped him from reading the second half of Bowen-Colthurst's April 26 report which briefly described O'Carroll's capture and wounding (without naming O'Carroll). This information is from the discussion of the Simon Commission in Bryan Bacon's "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst". Incidentally, this same source describes Lieutenant Wilson's recounting of Colthurst's prayer for Sheehy-Skeffington (Day 1 of Colthurst's court martial). CanK9 ( talk) 04:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
As I read Hanna's lecture "British Militarism", I am increasingly realising that many details of Francis's last hours in their various versions are probably traceable to this document. However, the document presents significant problems as a reliable source, not least of which the fact that Hanna herself did not witness many of the events she describes (e.g. Bowen-Colthurst's alleged prayers on Francis's behalf, and his saying "You'll be next."). Moreover the document shows Hanna to have been very politically motivated in her retelling of the events. The problems with this source would seem then to contaminate many other accounts of the story, including Barry and the Irish Times article. Wwallacee ( talk) 07:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I have reinstated (with corrections) some text about the difference between Francis and Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington's response to the violence of Easter 1916. It is clear that Hanna actively sympathized with the rebels while Francis did not. Francis's first act was to go to the rescue of an English soldier; his next was to try to stop looting by inner-city paupers. He at no point offered to help the insurrectionists. Hanna, in contrast, did help the insurrectionists. Hanna revealed in a later comment that she deemed the looters to be "British sympathizers" (see Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington, British Militarism as I have known it, a lecture given during a lecture tour of America). This remark which casts significant light on her own views! The looters were nothing more than inner city paupers who were greedy and apolitical. Wwallacee ( talk) 05:36, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
CanK9, you who know all - is there a good source for the detail that Sheehy-Skeffington protested against the shooting of James Coade, and Bowen-Colthurst then turned to him and said: "You'll be next!" ?? - Wwallacee ( talk) 06:16, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I haven't come across any first-hand account of Colthurst making this threat. CanK9 ( talk) 19:22, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
@ User Talk:CanK9, can you source anything on whether a debate actually occurred between FSS and Countess M? This would seem to be a highly entertaining possibility to imagine. - Wwallacee ( talk) 10:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC) I don't know about whether the debate occurred or not. My apologies for not responding sooner to the question. I only just discovered it. CanK9 ( talk) 04:31, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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What do you mean "there's some evidence" he was an athiest. Every book, article and paper written on him mentions that fact that he ws an athiest. This namby-pamby NPOV, weakly stated bollocks completely changes the charcteristic of the nature of his (or lack of) religious faith. The staement is almost as stupid as the earlier one identifying him as a Roman Catholic.
The article refers to the "11th East Surrey Regiment". This is confusing. Does it mean 11th Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment? DuncanHill ( talk) 14:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
There is some redundancy and somewhat POV language about him I cleared up. Also, the article referenced the North King St. Murders as part of his indictment, but wasn't that a separate incident entirely, one which he was not involved? Also, should he have his own article? We have enough reliable sources on him for a stub. Not sure if there's enough that isn;t already included here, however. - R. fiend ( talk) 19:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I have read and re-read a few times the " Arrest and murder" section, and I just can't find at what point he was actually murdered. The section implies, somewhat loosely, that Bowen-Colthurst's raiding party was indeed attacked (as he perhaps hoped), and that Bowen-Colthurst himself then shot Sheehy-Skeffington. (When? Where?) The last paragraph of the section doesn't specifically say this; it indicates that Bowen-Colthurst shot several other people in an unrelated situation. Unfortunately, the only reference in this section is not available. Could someone with knowledge (and references!) clarify? HorsePunchKid ( talk) 2009-03-11 03:17:06 Z
Also during the Easter Rising, members of the British 11th East Surrey Regiment at Portobello Bridge arrested the pacifist Francis Sheehy-Skeffington on 25 April for no obvious reason, while returning to his home in Rathmines. He was taken to Portobello Barracks, where he was held as an enemy sympathizer. Later that evening, he was taken out as a hostage with a raiding party led by Captain J.C. Bowen-Colthurst to the home and shop of Alderman James Kelly, at the corner of Camden Street and Harcourt Road (from which the name "Kelly's Corner" derives). Mistaking the Alderman (a conservative) for a rebel, the soldiers destroyed the shop with grenades. On the way back to Rathmines, Skeffington was the witness to two murders committed by Bowen-Colthurst and his party on two unarmed civilians (one of them a 17-year-old boy from Mountpleasant Avenue returning from Rathmines church).
The following morning Bowen-Colthurst ordered his sergeant to organise a firing party to shoot dead Sheehy-Skeffington and two pro-British journalists—Thomas Dixon (a disabled Scotsman) and Patrick McIntyre—who were unlucky enough to have been in Kelly's shop when it was raided. The three were shot in the back as they walked towards a wall in the barracks yard. Hohenloh 03:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Sadly there are still (30 March 2016) a number of inaccuracies and citation errors about Captain John Bowen-Colthurst in this article, but I am not technically competent enough to fix them. I would recommend more technically adept, prospective contributors read either Bryan Bacon's ebook A Terrible Duty or the forthcoming book by the historian, James Taylor, Guilty But Insane, before amending the article. CanK9 ( talk) 00:52, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Re Captain John Bowen-Colthurst
My spouse suggests that even if I cannot add content to the article, I should at least spell out its possible errors, so that other more technically adept contributors could amend the article. So here goes:
The Simon Royal Commission limited itself to investigating the deaths of Jim Coade, Thomas Dickson, Patrick MacIntyre, and Francis Sheehy Skeffington.
Colthurst was released from Broadmoor (under medical supervision) on 21 January 1918. He emigrated to Terrace, British Columbia in April 1919. Besides Terrace, he lived in Sooke (near Victoria) from 1929-1942, and in Naramata (near Penticton) from 1942 till his death in 1965.
There appears to be no mention of his obituary in either of the sources cited in the Wiki article. (It would be really helpful if Wiki articles when citing books,could include page numbers in their references.) CanK9 ( talk) 03:38, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
In the 'Aftermath' section, it is stated that Bowen-Colthurst's obituary omitted mention of the Easter Rising. The citations given for this information are Dara Redmond's Irish Times 26 August 2006 article and Max Caulfield's book "The Easter Rebellion". Neither citation is correct.
Obituaries appeared in The Vancouver Sun, 15 December 1965 ("Warrior Dies") and in The Penticton Herald, 14 December 1965 ("Colorful Figure Dies, Was Original Socred"). The fact that The Vancouver Sun did not mention the Rising was noted in Bryan Bacon's book "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst", which reproduced (with permission) the full Vancouver Sun obituary on its first page. CanK9 ( talk) 21:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I have now added in the details about Bowen-Colthurst's later years, provided by user CanK9, into a footnote. And cited them as referenced by CanK9. Wwallacee ( talk) 05:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The section on Sheehy-Skeffington's death and its aftermath now takes up two thirds of the article, making the article totally lopsided. I don't agree with the assertion recently added to the lead that he is principally remembered for his killing. He is notable as a suffragist, as a pacifist and as a nationalist. Possibly that section should be split off into a separate article, Death of Francis Sheehy-Skeffington. -- Scolaire ( talk) 14:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Can anyone find further verification on the shooting of Richard O'Carroll by Bowen-Colthurst? This is not mentioned in the Royal Commission Report, but I have seen it cited in several sources. I will try to add some more citations. But none of these sources cites its own source. Wwallacee ( talk) 18:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Neil Richardson in his "According to their lights: stories of Irishmen in the British Army, Easter 1916" gives an account of O'Carroll's death. Mr Richardson's source (unpublished) is Gerald Keatinge's "Some experiences of a cadet during the Irish Rebellion of Easter Week, 1916". Some of the details are a bit hazy (eg Who did the shooting?)but the account rings true. Timothy Healing raised the issue of O'Carroll's murder on the first day (August 23) of the Royal Commission, but Sir John Simon stopped him from reading the second half of Bowen-Colthurst's April 26 report which briefly described O'Carroll's capture and wounding (without naming O'Carroll). This information is from the discussion of the Simon Commission in Bryan Bacon's "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst". Incidentally, this same source describes Lieutenant Wilson's recounting of Colthurst's prayer for Sheehy-Skeffington (Day 1 of Colthurst's court martial). CanK9 ( talk) 04:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
As I read Hanna's lecture "British Militarism", I am increasingly realising that many details of Francis's last hours in their various versions are probably traceable to this document. However, the document presents significant problems as a reliable source, not least of which the fact that Hanna herself did not witness many of the events she describes (e.g. Bowen-Colthurst's alleged prayers on Francis's behalf, and his saying "You'll be next."). Moreover the document shows Hanna to have been very politically motivated in her retelling of the events. The problems with this source would seem then to contaminate many other accounts of the story, including Barry and the Irish Times article. Wwallacee ( talk) 07:50, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I have reinstated (with corrections) some text about the difference between Francis and Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington's response to the violence of Easter 1916. It is clear that Hanna actively sympathized with the rebels while Francis did not. Francis's first act was to go to the rescue of an English soldier; his next was to try to stop looting by inner-city paupers. He at no point offered to help the insurrectionists. Hanna, in contrast, did help the insurrectionists. Hanna revealed in a later comment that she deemed the looters to be "British sympathizers" (see Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington, British Militarism as I have known it, a lecture given during a lecture tour of America). This remark which casts significant light on her own views! The looters were nothing more than inner city paupers who were greedy and apolitical. Wwallacee ( talk) 05:36, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
CanK9, you who know all - is there a good source for the detail that Sheehy-Skeffington protested against the shooting of James Coade, and Bowen-Colthurst then turned to him and said: "You'll be next!" ?? - Wwallacee ( talk) 06:16, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I haven't come across any first-hand account of Colthurst making this threat. CanK9 ( talk) 19:22, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
@ User Talk:CanK9, can you source anything on whether a debate actually occurred between FSS and Countess M? This would seem to be a highly entertaining possibility to imagine. - Wwallacee ( talk) 10:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC) I don't know about whether the debate occurred or not. My apologies for not responding sooner to the question. I only just discovered it. CanK9 ( talk) 04:31, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Francis Sheehy-Skeffington. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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