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I am curious as to why this citation has been added, by Beagel Kennywpara ( talk) 19:30, 1 November 2014 (UTC). I have written a lot of the stuff, and it cannot be called 'shale gas production in the UK' as currently there is none.this article uses the term 'hydraulic fracturing' as a synonym of unconventional gas (shale gas) production. It contains a wide amount of material that covers the whole debate of shale gas/geothermal/ (which involves fracking) various drilling issues (which were part of the debate at the Preese Hall no 1 well, which is the only fracked HV well so far and misunderstandings of this are rife), climate change as it refers to UK issues and policy, CBM (which can involve fracking) traditional fracking history, political issues, government publications, opposition etc etc. As such this citation seems baseless.
The second part of the citation is It includes subsection about shale gas areas, horizontal drilling, well cementing, etc issues which are not issues of hydraulic fracturing or which belong to the shale gas articles. I again would like to see a justification for that. Try to find a brief description for horizontal drilling directional drilling and you get an article that has had multiple citations for years and is highly technical. It is one of the main things that relate to fracking (especially in stages) as a technology. Well cementing as it pertains to fracturing is also part of the debate, with so many concerns about methane and frac fluids causing pollution (and also is part of the debate for traditional wells)
I would appreciate comments from other editors. This comment has been added by one person. Looking at a variety of other Wiki sites there is scope for a wide range of material as it relates to the subject. That is what this site has as well. It brings together well sourced references and comment to inform those curious about the whole HF debate as it is currently in the UK.
I do not mind the citation for 'unclear citation style' from Rock Magnetist, as I have been guilty of not really understanding how to use the simple drop down menu. In addition, RM has been trying hard to improve this. Is this citation an attempt to remove well sourced and relevant information from public view? Or to cast doubt on the validity of the content. I would hope not. If there is question about content I would appreciate a mature discussion on that, (as we recently did on the Climate Change chapter. Kennywpara ( talk) 16:40, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I am particularly concerned when I see some of the none NPOV nonsense in parts of the Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing. Now that does need a citation. ( I see there was lots of discussion on that but its still full of poorly referenced, badly written stuff.) The initial section is far too long and needs a total rewrite, but its not cited. Kennywpara ( talk) 17:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Beagel has cited this article. It is about HF in the UK. This umbrella covers 1. CBM possibly, 2. Geothermal, 3.low volume tight formation fracking, 4. HV tight formation, 5. Gas fracking. 6. Gel fracking, 7. Light tight oil, and.... oh yes, shale gas fracking, which is probably the most likely one to take place. All of these are in HF in the UK currently They are all HF, and all in the UK and so this is the right umbrella to be under.
Underneath that is an umbrella covering specific concerns about the process, this would be chemicals, spread of fractures, earthquakes, and frac specific items.
There is another umbrella covering concerns about the process of drilling, whether for HF or not, methane, well leaks, air pollution, traffic, regulation etc etc.
Then there is another umbrella that concerns none drilling or HF related concerns, protest, politics, house values, climate change etc.
The problem I have with Beagels proposal is that the situation is already complicated enough, with many of the issues that could be classed under several umbrellas. Thats why the public are confused with a barrage of good info, but loads of bad info. Taking shale gas out as a separate category has no logical basis. Having a 'Shale Gas HF in the UK' page would logically mean another page called 'HF in the UK but definitely no shale gas'. Many of these umbrella issues would apply to both putative pages. Does this mean duplication? What a waste of everyones time. Shale gas is firmly an HF process and so the only place for it is in the page it already is in, HF in the UK. I have spent a lot of time making a clear structure, taking advice from others as can be seen above. To destroy that (which is what Beagel proposes) has no sense. Wikipedia protocols are based on common sense, and I do not know which one this is in breach of, but in view of shale gas definitely involving HF, this is the place to stay. This means the citation is baseless. If I do not hear any other comments then I will remove the citation in a day or so. talk) 17:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Beagel The shale gas sections for all countries are almost entirely devoted to evaluations of reserves, not the wider debate. As such it is an unsuitable place to put an article about the wider debate. You seem to have suggested that shale gas can be produced (commercially) without HF. I have not seen any information that supports that. As such shale gas (as I thought I made clear in my umbrellas piece) is intrinsically linked with HF as it is the process necessary to extract it and it is sensible that it is included under HF in the UK. All of the 'wider debate' stuff is in the articles on HF, notably the US, the UK and less so in South Africa. Indeed the US article has (like the UK) wide ranging discussions about different types of fracking and the wider debate. I think you will see that the US article is broadly similar to the UK one, with a lot of content about gas (like the UK one). So is it a case that everyone else is out of step? Do you propose to put a maintainance tag on the US site? It clearly deserves one by your logic. In terms of WP:POVFORK then if the other articles were up to scratch (which the Environment section is not) and had a section on UK policy I would not have an issue with a link that takes you straight there, provided it is properly written and referenced. I would want to see a massive rewrite, especially of the introduction. Kennywpara ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
All very interesting Beagel except that all of the methods are either about fracturing, by various techniques or 'at the concept stage'. So you are still unable to provide evidence that shale products should NOT go in an article about fracking. And that gives you justication for deleting posts that involve shale gas/oil fracking in an article about fracking? Again you are not presenting a logical case. Kennywpara ( talk) 22:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Would it help this discussion to state what the disputed text is? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
I have renamed 'this to 'Areas with hydrocarbon potential' so this now covers the LTO issue, This means no POVFORK Kennywpara ( talk) 15:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
This could be very easily solved by changing the title of the 'Shale Gas by country' pages to 'Shale Gas RESERVES by country', seeing as that is what they are about. Then there would be little reason to split this article up. I want people to be able to access the areas of concern, many of which may seem peripheral, but they are part of the wider debate. I thought that was the purpose of Wikipedia. The fact that the whole country appears confused about all aspects of this, with anti frack, (and fracking is always the clarion call) at limestone oil wells and CBM wells where no fracking is planned, tells me it is wrong to split this page up. Especially as the rationale for doing this is that 'shale gas is not synonymous with fracking'. Currently all (not most)shale gas wells are fracked, period. Putting 'peripheral' concerns such as drilling issues in a shale gas article is illogical as it concerns other types of wells drilled. It is lumped in with the many misunderstandings about the whole hydrocarbon business, and as such shuffling this information into loads of difficult to find cul de sacs seems very poor. Kennywpara ( talk) 10:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
To avoid the problems perceived above, a section named 'Public Perceptions of HF' would be appropriate, This would mean that rather than removing information that many people are confused about, it would allow sections like, well leaks, climate change, traffic issues, etc, to be presented. These issues are part of the HF debate, even though they may be peripheral, or not even related at all. Kennywpara ( talk) 17:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC) Am away at present (white water kayaking) but will look at this next week. Could I ask Beagel not to start moving sections out until this has been discussed. I personally cannot see this to be a problem and it would reflect what Rock Magnetist seemed to be saying Kennywpara ( talk) 17:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and could I ask you Beagel not to move any shale gas articles on the basis that shale gas is not synonymous with HF. I have looked for the paper you referred to Beagel but cannot find the link. Could you possibly repost it for other editors to evaluate? From what I could see from research, there will be no production of shale gas without fracking. (I have 12 years working in the industry and shale most definitely is not a permeable formation, and certainly not producible commercially) To restructure an article based upon a false premise would seem perverse. All shale gas wells are HF, but not all HF wells are shale. As such I have asked several times but an estimated 99% 'I dont know' does not indicate current thinking AFAIK. Kennywpara ( talk) 20:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I moved all of the drilling issues stuff in to a new section called the 'Fracking' Debate. There is other stuff that could go in there. As RM noted, these things are all confused in the public mind anyway, and this would seem a suitable place to put them. What do you think? Martin Hogbin ( talk) Beagel ( talk) plazak ( talk) Kennywpara ( talk) 12:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC) RockMagnetist( talk Kennywpara ( talk) 12:52, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Jytdog ( talk) Kennywpara ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I have removed this section pending discussion as it seems to me to contain significant pro-fracking OR.
The first reference cites a householder who was refused insurance by a named company because of proximity to a fracking site. There is no source challenging this fact. The section went on to say that earthquake is covered by home insurance, quoting from two companies. This is OR, we cannot make general statements about insurance from our own research into insurance documents. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 14:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I googled house insurance fracking and got loads. A selection
Mentioned at the end... http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/23/fracking-undermine-value-home
Backs up previous.... http://www.homeprotect.co.uk/home-insurance-articles/subsidence/what-is-fracking
Scaremongering.... http://stopfyldefracking.org.uk/latest-news/further-update-on-property-insurance-and-potential-damage-caused-by-fracking/
Yet more... http://frack-off.org.uk/resource/20-impacts-of-shale-oil-gas/ Kennywpara ( talk) 18:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Comment made by an MP...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-25713163
There is loads more. Surely if a false story is being spread around one of the functions of Wiki is to disabuse people of that misconception with good outside sources. I thought the original did that, with no interpretation necessary from me. Re 'widely reported, I could have put all of these references on, but put one good one. Hiscox Insurance is the one that was reported to have denied insurance yet they specifically have put a statement up. Surely thats enough? Kennywpara ( talk) 18:53, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
When I say disabuse, I mean exactly what you mean! Provide proper content, argument, and reliable sources. The truth speaks for itself very eloquently I find. This says something on P 6, but is not good enough IMHO. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/283832/Planning_v3.pdf. There was a new policy issued to underwriters (BIBA)in Sept 2014. Unfortunately the policy is only available to BIBA members, and I cannot see any reporting on that. Having said that the Hiscox and the Avantia links still says the same, ie no issues, and no denial of insurance. Not what many would have you believe. Will try to see if BIBA can release that policy for public view. Kennywpara ( talk) 16:43, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Martin Hogbin ( talk), I have found a link from UKOOG, quoting the Association of British Insurers. I cannot get a reply from the ABI, or BIBA. I think this is fine. What do you think MH, (or anyone else? Kennywpara ( talk) 16:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not clear to me why there is an image of a wireline composite log from a well in Alaska in this article. Mikenorton ( talk) 10:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about the UK non-toxicity requirement. Shale gas is not yet being commercially developed in the UK and there are no final regulations. Here is what the DECC report that is cited for this claim actually says: "Chemicals used in drilling and frack fluids are assessed for hazards on a case-by-case basis for each well by the appropriate environmental regulator (EA, NRW or SEPA). Operators must declare the full details of the chemicals to the regulator and will publish a brief description of the chemical’s purpose and any hazards it may pose to the environment, subject to appropriate protection for commercially sensitivity." It then goes on to refer to the non-toxic chemicals used by Cuadrilla, the only company to hydraulically fracture for shale gas in the UK. This anecdote has little bearing on industry practices and regulations should large scale shale gas development go forward and it certainly provides no indication of a non-toxicity requirement. The DECC report cited says nothing about mandatory public disclosure for all chemicals (including proprietary ones), nor anything about a non-toxicity requirement. Further, even if there was such a requirement most risks to groundwater would still exist because they have to do with what comes back up the well, not what goes into the well. The most likely mechanisms for contamination are well casing failure and wastewater disposal. Flowback and produced waters contain heavy metals (e.g., arsenic), naturally occurring radioactive materials (e.g., radium), and other substances that present clear risks to public health. Hays452 ( talk) 17:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I found the following images to be misleading as they are not about HF in the UK but these photos are taken in the United States:
As this article is about HF in the UK, not about HF in general or HF in the US, these emages should be removed. Beagel ( talk) 17:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I would welcome comments on the edit I have just done re the recent Medact report. I have held off from commenting on this and other health scares that there have been from the US, often reported in the UK press, as the science often seemed very poor. As a scientist and enginner, I found the Medact Report seemed to be a very weak and biased analysis. That of course was my opinion, and as such has no place in an encyclopedia. HPE have however reviewed this data in the recent Lancs CC Planning Dept report, and it seems fair to present this, as it is a criticism from an impeccable source.
It could be seen as contentious, and as such I would welcome comment. I firmly feel that this page should avoid bull s""t, that seems to be everywhere, regarding fracking. Certainly none of that gets on to this page, and I know many other editors have been involved in policing the occasional attack Kennywpara ( talk) 09:46, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I have just looked through this article again and the tone is somewhat promotional wuth many sections explaining how HF in the UK does not cause various problems. I am not sure what should be done abou this but I would be interested in comments from others. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I've also noticed a subtle pro-fracking tone eg the Infographic - showing drilling depth to scale - says "Big Ben would need to be stacked ~25 time to reach this depth" as if it were a long way down. You might as well say that a molecule of air travelling in a straight line would cover the distance in an average of ~5 seconds. They're both true and both utterly irrelevant beyond spin and perception. 217.37.166.142 ( talk) 16:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
This section does not clearly state the concerns of the anti-fracking lobby. It seems to consist mainly of a pre-emptive defence against these claims.
This was recently removed
'Problems associated with the process include pressure on infrastructure, including roads and emergency services, air pollution from vehicles and machinery, the use of huge quantities of water which cannot easily be decontaminated, noise and light pollution, contamination of aquifers, rivers and streams, serious damage to human and animal health, economic damage, especially to agricultural, food production and tourism industries and the social costs of boom and bust industries'.
I agree that, as written, it is not appropriate content for WP but we should state the anti-HF case, not in the voice of WP but as a summary of the case put forward by the anti-HF lobby.
We should then give the response to that case by the HF industry, as a response by them. We should not though be putting up our own arguments for either side in this section. Perhaps we could say:
'Anti-fracking protesters say that there are various problems associated with the process include pressure on local transport infrastructure, air and water pollution, the use of huge quantities of water, and potential economic damage to agricultural, food production and tourism industries'.
Note that we are not confirming that these claims are valid, only that they are being made, which is undoubtedly true. We should not be sayining that these claims are false either but we should include a similar weight of response from the HF industry.
Clearly established and well-sourced facts about the process, from which the readers might draw their own conclusions, should of course, be included in the article but not in the 'debate section'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link for this as this is an anti piece from a long standing author of this type of rhetoric. It does not stand up to scrutiny in the UK context, which is why it received such a panning from UKOOG. UKOOG do work with this stuff on a day to day basis and so know the law and requirements. http://www.ukoog.org.uk/about-ukoog/press-releases/151-ukoog-response-to-chemtrust-report-on-fracking Kennywpara ( talk) 09:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC) The piece about EU is fine, as it is an impeccable source. This is 18+ months old and there are various groups looking into this so when those conclusions are reached that would be appropriate for an update. Kennywpara ( talk) 09:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
each well by the appropriate environmental regulator (EA, NRW or SEPA). Operators must declare the full details of the chemicals to the regulator and will publish a brief description of the chemical’s purpose and any hazards it may pose to the environment, subject to appropriate protection for commercially sensitivity' Commercial sensitivity to me means concentration. The nature of the chemical cannot be concealed.
I would ask to avoid editing and changing comments, particularly comments of other editors per WP:TALK. Beagel ( talk) 20:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that all posts should be made according to Wiki protocols. There has been a lot of unpleasantness, and accusations which have breached WP:CIV. There is a need for specialist input, as it is a technical subject, however WP:COI is only a problem if there is an underlying promotional undertone. I have not seen any. I am pleased that the general content of the article is generally sound, and I know it did need some maintenance, and link tidying. However, the opinions of a single editor need consensus if major or critical update is to be made. I think all of the maintainance tags are cleared now. Could I suggest the tags be cleared if the perceived problem has been cleared. It did allow me to add a very important new publication as a source, namely the very recent OOGSG document which postdates several earlier links. I have updated several links. I also learned how to do a 'ref' link, which was easy. Please remember that we all bring different things to the table. I would hope I bring subject knowledge, integrity, and no COI. Kennywpara ( talk) 10:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Flaring of gas is not something which is caused by hydraulic fracturing. This is a common to oil and gas industry in general notwithstanding if the well is just drilled of hydraulically fractured. Therefore, this information about gas flaring does not belong here but rather in Oil and gas industry in the United Kingdom. Beagel ( talk) 18:03, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
This publication is also specific to shale gas, and covers the issues https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/277219/Air.pdf As such, this is pertinent to the issues of air quality/green completions/ and should remain in the page. Kennywpara ( talk) 18:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Should the lead contain the words 'The larger of the earthquakes caused minor deformation of the wellbore[7] and was strong enough to be felt.' Luther Blissetts thinks it should and has reverted my edit several times, with no justification or consensus. The previous sentence reported the felt seismicity, and the minor issue of a 0.1 inch deformation in the perforated production zone that was not even discovered for 6 months is something that seems design to cause unease rather than present the bare facts of the subject. As such that would indicate problems with WP:NPOV I know any engineer would consider it a problem, but not a safety issue. Could you please comment Beagel and Mikenorton Kennywpara ( talk) 13:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
the minor issue of a 0.1 inch deformation in the perforated production zone that was not even discovered for 6 months is something that seems design to cause unease rather than present the bare facts of the subject. As such that would indicate problems with WP:NPOV I know any engineer would consider it a problem, but not a safety issue.
There is crossover between this site and others. All shale gas wells would be subject to HF. Not all HF wells will be gas. HF can be performed on horizontal wells, and vertical, but there are horizontal wells with no HF in the N Sea, old traditional wells could later be subject to HF, and so on. If a section is considered to be in the wrong place, could I suggest that it be moved, but a brief link be made. I did this on Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Flaring after Beagel comment. Kennywpara ( talk) 08:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
There are two section headings which were changed currently and which are incorrect after these changes. First, the title "Areas where hydraulic fracturing used" is incorrect as it talks about the potential and not about the current HF areas. Therefore, the previous title "Areas with hydrocarbon potential" is more correct. Second, title "Geothermal hydraulic fracturing" is somehow nonsense as it suggest that there is a specific hydraulic fracturing method which uses geothermal energy. Which is not the case. Correct title should be "Geothermal wells" or "Hydraulic fracturing of geothermal wells". Beagel ( talk) 08:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I am afraid I spent ages trying to sort out the method of quotation used by Luther Blissetts. I have put the reference OOGSG1 as a link for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/545924/LIT_10495.pdf This seems to be the go to reference for many areas of environmental issues. (there was a link about NORMS that was referenced but this new publication gives all details on OOGSG1, so I deleted it LB as its redundant) In Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Reuse_in_hydraulic_fracturing_and_injection_in_disposal_wells I copied the text I wanted to quote from page 46. There is much useful info on the protocols for disposals of what types of fluid into what types of formation. It explained a lot to me, and as its a final thing and recent it should be here. It would be useful if each subsection could have a quoted link, so you can see the key points by looking at the reference. The trouble is that when I do it that way it seems to try to add that to all the citations, and there is a conflict, and 2 versions of OOGSG1 appear in the 'named references'. Big red letters saying 'cite error' appear, and its a big annoying mess. I had to delete all of the references. Any advice on how this can be done? I spent about an hour with the MOS and learned loads, but not what I want to do. Kennywpara ( talk) 15:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Hi Kennywpara, If you want to add a quote, add |quote="quoted text here"| to the citation. If more than one instance of that citation is used, give a unique ref name for the citation-with-quote (e.g. OOGSG1). I fixed your attempt, but didn't change your ref name. You were on the right track, and hopefully that fix is what you were trying to achieve. If not, I think you'll be able to fix yourself. If you can't make it work, let me know. Hope that helps. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 11:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I reverted an edit by Luther Blissetts in https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom&diff=738322765&oldid=738322154 This referred to a call from the EU for regulations to protect the environment. After the publication of the EA paper of August 18 2016 that would appear superfluous. The regulatory system has done huge amounts of work to create systems that protect the environment etc as per EU concerns. The date however cannot be the sole decider. Some of the DECC papers explaining fracking go back to 2013, yet they are still 'live' and presumably would be updated if there were any change. I have not seen any conflicts, though would happily modify that position if one appeared. Kennywpara ( talk) 07:15, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
However, the European Commission's impact assessment of potential new regulations on fracking concluded that the current situation "is not effective in addressing environmental risks and impacts, nor in providing legal clarity / certainty nor allaying public concerns", and that a new Directive setting specific requirements for fracking would be the most beneficial option. [2]
In January 2014, an impact assessment by the European Commission concluded that existing legal and regulatory environments were insufficient, and recommended a new directive with specific requirements for high volume hydraulic fracturing to address: "environmental risks and impacts"; allay "public concerns", and; "enable investments". [3]
I counted 64 instances of the use of 'this' in the text. I intend to go through the article and alter the wording to reduce that count. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 21:56, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
First, I am going to reorder the existing text so that it reads in chronological order. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 07:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
The M 4.8 Alberta event lead to the suspension of operations by the regulator. It was reported that there had been many events up to M 3 in 2015. [4] In British Columbia Oil and Gas Commission reported that a 4.6-magnitude earthquake in northeastern British Columbia has been linked to the largest earthquake in the province that’s already been attributed to fracking – a 4.4-magnitude earthquake that was felt in Fort St. John and Fort Nelson in August 2014. [5]
Luther Blissetts ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Luther Blissetts ( talk) 15:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)Mentioned on Flowback Fluid above, seismic events with the potential to initiate damage (up to M 5.6) have been associated with some water disposal wells in the US. This is often attributed to flowback water from fracking. "Thousands of disposal wells operate aseismically, four of the highest-rate wells are capable of inducing 20% of 2008 to 2013 central U.S. seismicity" [6]
One reference, name="PI 07Jul2011">{cite news |url= http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/30348/igas-energy-starts-construction-at-doe-green-3-site-well-to-spud-mid-july-30348.html |title=Igas Energy starts construction at Doe Green 3 site, well to spud mid-July |author=Andre Lamberti |date=7 July 2011 |agency=Proactiveinvestors |accessdate=29 February 2012} was included in the history of HF in the UK and describes IGas' intent to drill a new (CBM) well at Doe Green. I tried searching for another reliable secondary source but all I can find is that in 2015 IGas have said that HF has not been used at Doe Green:
"We are not fracking at Doe Green and none of the wells that currently produce gas from the coal seams have actually been fracked." [7]
. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 16:40, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
"We are not fracking at Doe Green and none of the wells that currently produce gas from the coal seams have actually been fracked." "We have stimulated one well at Doe Green with water prior to 2011."
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I am curious as to why this citation has been added, by Beagel Kennywpara ( talk) 19:30, 1 November 2014 (UTC). I have written a lot of the stuff, and it cannot be called 'shale gas production in the UK' as currently there is none.this article uses the term 'hydraulic fracturing' as a synonym of unconventional gas (shale gas) production. It contains a wide amount of material that covers the whole debate of shale gas/geothermal/ (which involves fracking) various drilling issues (which were part of the debate at the Preese Hall no 1 well, which is the only fracked HV well so far and misunderstandings of this are rife), climate change as it refers to UK issues and policy, CBM (which can involve fracking) traditional fracking history, political issues, government publications, opposition etc etc. As such this citation seems baseless.
The second part of the citation is It includes subsection about shale gas areas, horizontal drilling, well cementing, etc issues which are not issues of hydraulic fracturing or which belong to the shale gas articles. I again would like to see a justification for that. Try to find a brief description for horizontal drilling directional drilling and you get an article that has had multiple citations for years and is highly technical. It is one of the main things that relate to fracking (especially in stages) as a technology. Well cementing as it pertains to fracturing is also part of the debate, with so many concerns about methane and frac fluids causing pollution (and also is part of the debate for traditional wells)
I would appreciate comments from other editors. This comment has been added by one person. Looking at a variety of other Wiki sites there is scope for a wide range of material as it relates to the subject. That is what this site has as well. It brings together well sourced references and comment to inform those curious about the whole HF debate as it is currently in the UK.
I do not mind the citation for 'unclear citation style' from Rock Magnetist, as I have been guilty of not really understanding how to use the simple drop down menu. In addition, RM has been trying hard to improve this. Is this citation an attempt to remove well sourced and relevant information from public view? Or to cast doubt on the validity of the content. I would hope not. If there is question about content I would appreciate a mature discussion on that, (as we recently did on the Climate Change chapter. Kennywpara ( talk) 16:40, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I am particularly concerned when I see some of the none NPOV nonsense in parts of the Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing. Now that does need a citation. ( I see there was lots of discussion on that but its still full of poorly referenced, badly written stuff.) The initial section is far too long and needs a total rewrite, but its not cited. Kennywpara ( talk) 17:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Beagel has cited this article. It is about HF in the UK. This umbrella covers 1. CBM possibly, 2. Geothermal, 3.low volume tight formation fracking, 4. HV tight formation, 5. Gas fracking. 6. Gel fracking, 7. Light tight oil, and.... oh yes, shale gas fracking, which is probably the most likely one to take place. All of these are in HF in the UK currently They are all HF, and all in the UK and so this is the right umbrella to be under.
Underneath that is an umbrella covering specific concerns about the process, this would be chemicals, spread of fractures, earthquakes, and frac specific items.
There is another umbrella covering concerns about the process of drilling, whether for HF or not, methane, well leaks, air pollution, traffic, regulation etc etc.
Then there is another umbrella that concerns none drilling or HF related concerns, protest, politics, house values, climate change etc.
The problem I have with Beagels proposal is that the situation is already complicated enough, with many of the issues that could be classed under several umbrellas. Thats why the public are confused with a barrage of good info, but loads of bad info. Taking shale gas out as a separate category has no logical basis. Having a 'Shale Gas HF in the UK' page would logically mean another page called 'HF in the UK but definitely no shale gas'. Many of these umbrella issues would apply to both putative pages. Does this mean duplication? What a waste of everyones time. Shale gas is firmly an HF process and so the only place for it is in the page it already is in, HF in the UK. I have spent a lot of time making a clear structure, taking advice from others as can be seen above. To destroy that (which is what Beagel proposes) has no sense. Wikipedia protocols are based on common sense, and I do not know which one this is in breach of, but in view of shale gas definitely involving HF, this is the place to stay. This means the citation is baseless. If I do not hear any other comments then I will remove the citation in a day or so. talk) 17:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Beagel The shale gas sections for all countries are almost entirely devoted to evaluations of reserves, not the wider debate. As such it is an unsuitable place to put an article about the wider debate. You seem to have suggested that shale gas can be produced (commercially) without HF. I have not seen any information that supports that. As such shale gas (as I thought I made clear in my umbrellas piece) is intrinsically linked with HF as it is the process necessary to extract it and it is sensible that it is included under HF in the UK. All of the 'wider debate' stuff is in the articles on HF, notably the US, the UK and less so in South Africa. Indeed the US article has (like the UK) wide ranging discussions about different types of fracking and the wider debate. I think you will see that the US article is broadly similar to the UK one, with a lot of content about gas (like the UK one). So is it a case that everyone else is out of step? Do you propose to put a maintainance tag on the US site? It clearly deserves one by your logic. In terms of WP:POVFORK then if the other articles were up to scratch (which the Environment section is not) and had a section on UK policy I would not have an issue with a link that takes you straight there, provided it is properly written and referenced. I would want to see a massive rewrite, especially of the introduction. Kennywpara ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
All very interesting Beagel except that all of the methods are either about fracturing, by various techniques or 'at the concept stage'. So you are still unable to provide evidence that shale products should NOT go in an article about fracking. And that gives you justication for deleting posts that involve shale gas/oil fracking in an article about fracking? Again you are not presenting a logical case. Kennywpara ( talk) 22:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Would it help this discussion to state what the disputed text is? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
I have renamed 'this to 'Areas with hydrocarbon potential' so this now covers the LTO issue, This means no POVFORK Kennywpara ( talk) 15:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
This could be very easily solved by changing the title of the 'Shale Gas by country' pages to 'Shale Gas RESERVES by country', seeing as that is what they are about. Then there would be little reason to split this article up. I want people to be able to access the areas of concern, many of which may seem peripheral, but they are part of the wider debate. I thought that was the purpose of Wikipedia. The fact that the whole country appears confused about all aspects of this, with anti frack, (and fracking is always the clarion call) at limestone oil wells and CBM wells where no fracking is planned, tells me it is wrong to split this page up. Especially as the rationale for doing this is that 'shale gas is not synonymous with fracking'. Currently all (not most)shale gas wells are fracked, period. Putting 'peripheral' concerns such as drilling issues in a shale gas article is illogical as it concerns other types of wells drilled. It is lumped in with the many misunderstandings about the whole hydrocarbon business, and as such shuffling this information into loads of difficult to find cul de sacs seems very poor. Kennywpara ( talk) 10:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
To avoid the problems perceived above, a section named 'Public Perceptions of HF' would be appropriate, This would mean that rather than removing information that many people are confused about, it would allow sections like, well leaks, climate change, traffic issues, etc, to be presented. These issues are part of the HF debate, even though they may be peripheral, or not even related at all. Kennywpara ( talk) 17:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC) Am away at present (white water kayaking) but will look at this next week. Could I ask Beagel not to start moving sections out until this has been discussed. I personally cannot see this to be a problem and it would reflect what Rock Magnetist seemed to be saying Kennywpara ( talk) 17:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and could I ask you Beagel not to move any shale gas articles on the basis that shale gas is not synonymous with HF. I have looked for the paper you referred to Beagel but cannot find the link. Could you possibly repost it for other editors to evaluate? From what I could see from research, there will be no production of shale gas without fracking. (I have 12 years working in the industry and shale most definitely is not a permeable formation, and certainly not producible commercially) To restructure an article based upon a false premise would seem perverse. All shale gas wells are HF, but not all HF wells are shale. As such I have asked several times but an estimated 99% 'I dont know' does not indicate current thinking AFAIK. Kennywpara ( talk) 20:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I moved all of the drilling issues stuff in to a new section called the 'Fracking' Debate. There is other stuff that could go in there. As RM noted, these things are all confused in the public mind anyway, and this would seem a suitable place to put them. What do you think? Martin Hogbin ( talk) Beagel ( talk) plazak ( talk) Kennywpara ( talk) 12:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC) RockMagnetist( talk Kennywpara ( talk) 12:52, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Jytdog ( talk) Kennywpara ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I have removed this section pending discussion as it seems to me to contain significant pro-fracking OR.
The first reference cites a householder who was refused insurance by a named company because of proximity to a fracking site. There is no source challenging this fact. The section went on to say that earthquake is covered by home insurance, quoting from two companies. This is OR, we cannot make general statements about insurance from our own research into insurance documents. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 14:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I googled house insurance fracking and got loads. A selection
Mentioned at the end... http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/23/fracking-undermine-value-home
Backs up previous.... http://www.homeprotect.co.uk/home-insurance-articles/subsidence/what-is-fracking
Scaremongering.... http://stopfyldefracking.org.uk/latest-news/further-update-on-property-insurance-and-potential-damage-caused-by-fracking/
Yet more... http://frack-off.org.uk/resource/20-impacts-of-shale-oil-gas/ Kennywpara ( talk) 18:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Comment made by an MP...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-25713163
There is loads more. Surely if a false story is being spread around one of the functions of Wiki is to disabuse people of that misconception with good outside sources. I thought the original did that, with no interpretation necessary from me. Re 'widely reported, I could have put all of these references on, but put one good one. Hiscox Insurance is the one that was reported to have denied insurance yet they specifically have put a statement up. Surely thats enough? Kennywpara ( talk) 18:53, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
When I say disabuse, I mean exactly what you mean! Provide proper content, argument, and reliable sources. The truth speaks for itself very eloquently I find. This says something on P 6, but is not good enough IMHO. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/283832/Planning_v3.pdf. There was a new policy issued to underwriters (BIBA)in Sept 2014. Unfortunately the policy is only available to BIBA members, and I cannot see any reporting on that. Having said that the Hiscox and the Avantia links still says the same, ie no issues, and no denial of insurance. Not what many would have you believe. Will try to see if BIBA can release that policy for public view. Kennywpara ( talk) 16:43, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Martin Hogbin ( talk), I have found a link from UKOOG, quoting the Association of British Insurers. I cannot get a reply from the ABI, or BIBA. I think this is fine. What do you think MH, (or anyone else? Kennywpara ( talk) 16:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not clear to me why there is an image of a wireline composite log from a well in Alaska in this article. Mikenorton ( talk) 10:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about the UK non-toxicity requirement. Shale gas is not yet being commercially developed in the UK and there are no final regulations. Here is what the DECC report that is cited for this claim actually says: "Chemicals used in drilling and frack fluids are assessed for hazards on a case-by-case basis for each well by the appropriate environmental regulator (EA, NRW or SEPA). Operators must declare the full details of the chemicals to the regulator and will publish a brief description of the chemical’s purpose and any hazards it may pose to the environment, subject to appropriate protection for commercially sensitivity." It then goes on to refer to the non-toxic chemicals used by Cuadrilla, the only company to hydraulically fracture for shale gas in the UK. This anecdote has little bearing on industry practices and regulations should large scale shale gas development go forward and it certainly provides no indication of a non-toxicity requirement. The DECC report cited says nothing about mandatory public disclosure for all chemicals (including proprietary ones), nor anything about a non-toxicity requirement. Further, even if there was such a requirement most risks to groundwater would still exist because they have to do with what comes back up the well, not what goes into the well. The most likely mechanisms for contamination are well casing failure and wastewater disposal. Flowback and produced waters contain heavy metals (e.g., arsenic), naturally occurring radioactive materials (e.g., radium), and other substances that present clear risks to public health. Hays452 ( talk) 17:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I found the following images to be misleading as they are not about HF in the UK but these photos are taken in the United States:
As this article is about HF in the UK, not about HF in general or HF in the US, these emages should be removed. Beagel ( talk) 17:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
I would welcome comments on the edit I have just done re the recent Medact report. I have held off from commenting on this and other health scares that there have been from the US, often reported in the UK press, as the science often seemed very poor. As a scientist and enginner, I found the Medact Report seemed to be a very weak and biased analysis. That of course was my opinion, and as such has no place in an encyclopedia. HPE have however reviewed this data in the recent Lancs CC Planning Dept report, and it seems fair to present this, as it is a criticism from an impeccable source.
It could be seen as contentious, and as such I would welcome comment. I firmly feel that this page should avoid bull s""t, that seems to be everywhere, regarding fracking. Certainly none of that gets on to this page, and I know many other editors have been involved in policing the occasional attack Kennywpara ( talk) 09:46, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I have just looked through this article again and the tone is somewhat promotional wuth many sections explaining how HF in the UK does not cause various problems. I am not sure what should be done abou this but I would be interested in comments from others. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I've also noticed a subtle pro-fracking tone eg the Infographic - showing drilling depth to scale - says "Big Ben would need to be stacked ~25 time to reach this depth" as if it were a long way down. You might as well say that a molecule of air travelling in a straight line would cover the distance in an average of ~5 seconds. They're both true and both utterly irrelevant beyond spin and perception. 217.37.166.142 ( talk) 16:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
This section does not clearly state the concerns of the anti-fracking lobby. It seems to consist mainly of a pre-emptive defence against these claims.
This was recently removed
'Problems associated with the process include pressure on infrastructure, including roads and emergency services, air pollution from vehicles and machinery, the use of huge quantities of water which cannot easily be decontaminated, noise and light pollution, contamination of aquifers, rivers and streams, serious damage to human and animal health, economic damage, especially to agricultural, food production and tourism industries and the social costs of boom and bust industries'.
I agree that, as written, it is not appropriate content for WP but we should state the anti-HF case, not in the voice of WP but as a summary of the case put forward by the anti-HF lobby.
We should then give the response to that case by the HF industry, as a response by them. We should not though be putting up our own arguments for either side in this section. Perhaps we could say:
'Anti-fracking protesters say that there are various problems associated with the process include pressure on local transport infrastructure, air and water pollution, the use of huge quantities of water, and potential economic damage to agricultural, food production and tourism industries'.
Note that we are not confirming that these claims are valid, only that they are being made, which is undoubtedly true. We should not be sayining that these claims are false either but we should include a similar weight of response from the HF industry.
Clearly established and well-sourced facts about the process, from which the readers might draw their own conclusions, should of course, be included in the article but not in the 'debate section'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I removed a link for this as this is an anti piece from a long standing author of this type of rhetoric. It does not stand up to scrutiny in the UK context, which is why it received such a panning from UKOOG. UKOOG do work with this stuff on a day to day basis and so know the law and requirements. http://www.ukoog.org.uk/about-ukoog/press-releases/151-ukoog-response-to-chemtrust-report-on-fracking Kennywpara ( talk) 09:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC) The piece about EU is fine, as it is an impeccable source. This is 18+ months old and there are various groups looking into this so when those conclusions are reached that would be appropriate for an update. Kennywpara ( talk) 09:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
each well by the appropriate environmental regulator (EA, NRW or SEPA). Operators must declare the full details of the chemicals to the regulator and will publish a brief description of the chemical’s purpose and any hazards it may pose to the environment, subject to appropriate protection for commercially sensitivity' Commercial sensitivity to me means concentration. The nature of the chemical cannot be concealed.
I would ask to avoid editing and changing comments, particularly comments of other editors per WP:TALK. Beagel ( talk) 20:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that all posts should be made according to Wiki protocols. There has been a lot of unpleasantness, and accusations which have breached WP:CIV. There is a need for specialist input, as it is a technical subject, however WP:COI is only a problem if there is an underlying promotional undertone. I have not seen any. I am pleased that the general content of the article is generally sound, and I know it did need some maintenance, and link tidying. However, the opinions of a single editor need consensus if major or critical update is to be made. I think all of the maintainance tags are cleared now. Could I suggest the tags be cleared if the perceived problem has been cleared. It did allow me to add a very important new publication as a source, namely the very recent OOGSG document which postdates several earlier links. I have updated several links. I also learned how to do a 'ref' link, which was easy. Please remember that we all bring different things to the table. I would hope I bring subject knowledge, integrity, and no COI. Kennywpara ( talk) 10:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Flaring of gas is not something which is caused by hydraulic fracturing. This is a common to oil and gas industry in general notwithstanding if the well is just drilled of hydraulically fractured. Therefore, this information about gas flaring does not belong here but rather in Oil and gas industry in the United Kingdom. Beagel ( talk) 18:03, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
This publication is also specific to shale gas, and covers the issues https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/277219/Air.pdf As such, this is pertinent to the issues of air quality/green completions/ and should remain in the page. Kennywpara ( talk) 18:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Should the lead contain the words 'The larger of the earthquakes caused minor deformation of the wellbore[7] and was strong enough to be felt.' Luther Blissetts thinks it should and has reverted my edit several times, with no justification or consensus. The previous sentence reported the felt seismicity, and the minor issue of a 0.1 inch deformation in the perforated production zone that was not even discovered for 6 months is something that seems design to cause unease rather than present the bare facts of the subject. As such that would indicate problems with WP:NPOV I know any engineer would consider it a problem, but not a safety issue. Could you please comment Beagel and Mikenorton Kennywpara ( talk) 13:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
the minor issue of a 0.1 inch deformation in the perforated production zone that was not even discovered for 6 months is something that seems design to cause unease rather than present the bare facts of the subject. As such that would indicate problems with WP:NPOV I know any engineer would consider it a problem, but not a safety issue.
There is crossover between this site and others. All shale gas wells would be subject to HF. Not all HF wells will be gas. HF can be performed on horizontal wells, and vertical, but there are horizontal wells with no HF in the N Sea, old traditional wells could later be subject to HF, and so on. If a section is considered to be in the wrong place, could I suggest that it be moved, but a brief link be made. I did this on Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Flaring after Beagel comment. Kennywpara ( talk) 08:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
There are two section headings which were changed currently and which are incorrect after these changes. First, the title "Areas where hydraulic fracturing used" is incorrect as it talks about the potential and not about the current HF areas. Therefore, the previous title "Areas with hydrocarbon potential" is more correct. Second, title "Geothermal hydraulic fracturing" is somehow nonsense as it suggest that there is a specific hydraulic fracturing method which uses geothermal energy. Which is not the case. Correct title should be "Geothermal wells" or "Hydraulic fracturing of geothermal wells". Beagel ( talk) 08:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I am afraid I spent ages trying to sort out the method of quotation used by Luther Blissetts. I have put the reference OOGSG1 as a link for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/545924/LIT_10495.pdf This seems to be the go to reference for many areas of environmental issues. (there was a link about NORMS that was referenced but this new publication gives all details on OOGSG1, so I deleted it LB as its redundant) In Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Reuse_in_hydraulic_fracturing_and_injection_in_disposal_wells I copied the text I wanted to quote from page 46. There is much useful info on the protocols for disposals of what types of fluid into what types of formation. It explained a lot to me, and as its a final thing and recent it should be here. It would be useful if each subsection could have a quoted link, so you can see the key points by looking at the reference. The trouble is that when I do it that way it seems to try to add that to all the citations, and there is a conflict, and 2 versions of OOGSG1 appear in the 'named references'. Big red letters saying 'cite error' appear, and its a big annoying mess. I had to delete all of the references. Any advice on how this can be done? I spent about an hour with the MOS and learned loads, but not what I want to do. Kennywpara ( talk) 15:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Hi Kennywpara, If you want to add a quote, add |quote="quoted text here"| to the citation. If more than one instance of that citation is used, give a unique ref name for the citation-with-quote (e.g. OOGSG1). I fixed your attempt, but didn't change your ref name. You were on the right track, and hopefully that fix is what you were trying to achieve. If not, I think you'll be able to fix yourself. If you can't make it work, let me know. Hope that helps. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 11:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I reverted an edit by Luther Blissetts in https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom&diff=738322765&oldid=738322154 This referred to a call from the EU for regulations to protect the environment. After the publication of the EA paper of August 18 2016 that would appear superfluous. The regulatory system has done huge amounts of work to create systems that protect the environment etc as per EU concerns. The date however cannot be the sole decider. Some of the DECC papers explaining fracking go back to 2013, yet they are still 'live' and presumably would be updated if there were any change. I have not seen any conflicts, though would happily modify that position if one appeared. Kennywpara ( talk) 07:15, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
However, the European Commission's impact assessment of potential new regulations on fracking concluded that the current situation "is not effective in addressing environmental risks and impacts, nor in providing legal clarity / certainty nor allaying public concerns", and that a new Directive setting specific requirements for fracking would be the most beneficial option. [2]
In January 2014, an impact assessment by the European Commission concluded that existing legal and regulatory environments were insufficient, and recommended a new directive with specific requirements for high volume hydraulic fracturing to address: "environmental risks and impacts"; allay "public concerns", and; "enable investments". [3]
I counted 64 instances of the use of 'this' in the text. I intend to go through the article and alter the wording to reduce that count. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 21:56, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
First, I am going to reorder the existing text so that it reads in chronological order. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 07:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
The M 4.8 Alberta event lead to the suspension of operations by the regulator. It was reported that there had been many events up to M 3 in 2015. [4] In British Columbia Oil and Gas Commission reported that a 4.6-magnitude earthquake in northeastern British Columbia has been linked to the largest earthquake in the province that’s already been attributed to fracking – a 4.4-magnitude earthquake that was felt in Fort St. John and Fort Nelson in August 2014. [5]
Luther Blissetts ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Luther Blissetts ( talk) 15:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)Mentioned on Flowback Fluid above, seismic events with the potential to initiate damage (up to M 5.6) have been associated with some water disposal wells in the US. This is often attributed to flowback water from fracking. "Thousands of disposal wells operate aseismically, four of the highest-rate wells are capable of inducing 20% of 2008 to 2013 central U.S. seismicity" [6]
One reference, name="PI 07Jul2011">{cite news |url= http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/30348/igas-energy-starts-construction-at-doe-green-3-site-well-to-spud-mid-july-30348.html |title=Igas Energy starts construction at Doe Green 3 site, well to spud mid-July |author=Andre Lamberti |date=7 July 2011 |agency=Proactiveinvestors |accessdate=29 February 2012} was included in the history of HF in the UK and describes IGas' intent to drill a new (CBM) well at Doe Green. I tried searching for another reliable secondary source but all I can find is that in 2015 IGas have said that HF has not been used at Doe Green:
"We are not fracking at Doe Green and none of the wells that currently produce gas from the coal seams have actually been fracked." [7]
. Luther Blissetts ( talk) 16:40, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
"We are not fracking at Doe Green and none of the wells that currently produce gas from the coal seams have actually been fracked." "We have stimulated one well at Doe Green with water prior to 2011."