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Why is this word in scare quotes? Surely it is a bloodsport, and I don't think its proponants would deny this - whether that is a good thing or not is a matter for debate, but I would not have thought that this term was disputed? Trollderella 03:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
"Bloodsport" is usually used as a derogatory term for brutal forms of unregulated fighting and animal baiting. It is considered derogatory by one side (the hunters) and is generally only found in anti-hunting literature. The word simply reflects POV, and gives no useful information. "Hunting" already implies the possibility of death for the hunted animal. David A. Flory 06:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
As Canderra pointed out, a term can be lexically accurate and still POV. Hunting groups don't use the term; anti-hunting groups do. Hunters would argue that the term falsely suggests that point of hunting is to shed blood for sport, rather than to test one's riding, see the dogs' breeding and training in action, experience the excitement of the chase and the uncertainty of whether the fox will be caught or get away... Anti-hunting groups would say this is rubbish. It's a matter of POV. David A. Flory 04:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Bloodsport isn't derogatory. Its the way such sports are categorised. I disagree hunting already says that; many people go fishing but don't kill the fish. Catching butterflies in nets is a form of hunting even.-- Him and a dog 14:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I just looked it up at http://dictionary.cambridge.org and there is no suggestion it is derogatory. 81.154.181.177 ( talk) 11:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this text from the article:
While such claims are made, there is no evidence cited to suggest that the claims have any basis in fact. This article should be more than a series of claims if it is to be encyclopaedic. MikeHobday 06:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have twice removed this text from the article:
Without evidence that this problem is addressed by hunting foxes with pack of hounds in Australia, this cannot be a supporting argument for fox hunting. Perhaps it should be in the spotlighting article instead? MikeHobday 09:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've re-added a section on pest control, for the reason that the hunting of foxes with firearms in Australia is referred to as "Fox Hunting", and it is practiced as a sport (by calling foxes in with a fox whistle or spotlighting them). Granted, it doesn't have the attendant pomp and circumstance of English fox hunts, but the reality is that in this part of the world, foxes are hunted with firearms, not dogs, and it is still considered both a sporting pursuit AND a form of pest control. I have, however, deliberately left out references to baiting or poisoning foxes, as it doesn't really qualify as "hunting" (or even "sporting") in the traditional sense of the word. -- Commander Zulu 08:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey MikeHobday, I don't understand your rv comment. I suppose we agree that State sponsored fox hunting is in itself a valuable addition to this article. How can we improve the section? Perhaps you object to the pov or the place in the article, maybe lack of cites? Bye, Sander123 09:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
As i SAID main techniques used in Australia are baits and shooting. and perhaps this bounty, My problem is the confusion of the word fox hunt, MANY MANY austalians who go out to KILL (pest) fox spp would say they are "fox hunting". AS i also said below, there is harldy a tradition of fox hunting in asutralia AT ALL. I had never heard of it, and its not like im out of the loop, duck hunts are a HUGE issue here ever autumn, Fox hunting (else where is reported well. BUt not the hound fox hunt. And as i grew up in fox territoys ( ie the country) i feel i should know. Your revsion seems POV : "indeed that was the cause of the problem!" arn't we suposed to be unbiased, neither good nor bad???? Problem or not. Cilstr 06:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
"Variation: Drag hunting" is mentioned in the artical, you havn't taken it upon your self to remove that but yet, it is a from that which trained dogs DO NOT pursue Red Foxes. I thought the issue would be the of the foxes, and perhaps their welfare and that of the dogs and horses. The whole issue, not some (polical) agenda some have. NOt that i am pro hunt. i am most certainly NOT. (i mostly hate ebing reverted with out disscusion) (3 hours!!). Cilstr 15:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Incidently, how many active fox hunt clubs are there in australia? And whom is running the anti campain?? They are being very quiet... (perhaps because foxes(and cats) are eating our natives) Cilstr 16:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I recently made an edit to the one sentanace section "pest controll". ONe sentance!- hardly encolpedia worthy.. And yes i am annoyed my addtion was reverted with out a message to me. ( its on my watch list but wikipedia watch list only shows recent edits - not the ones to do with ,me....)
IN summation., 1) one sentance BEGGS to be elaborated on! 2) Further when one mentions "Fox hunting" to an australian- they will talk to you about SPOTLIGHTING and pest control, NOT the hunt with hounds, thus ( as an international encylopedia ) needs to be elaborated on. 3) UNtill i did a quick look up i (as an australian the grew up in the country regions had not ever heard of the so called sport (with hounds) ever occuring in australia. It seems there are about 6 clubs in australia- not a huge deal. I think is vitally important to mention the devestation that foxes do in australia - if you are to lump australia in with the rest of the fox hunting nations. eg "PM - Tasmania's fox hunt begins" :talking about shooting, www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s351581.htm Cilstr 06:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
From the article....
"The fox, or "Tod," as it is known in the British sport..."
Charley, Charles, Reynard, Red Rover - I've seen and heard these names used, but Tod? Can anyone provide more info on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanW ( talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
I found this english recipe for Fox Pasta. I wonder if we could put it in this listing -as it has to do with fox hunting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/4853388.stm
How many humans eat children? Besides I thought we were talking about speciesm, do sharks matter less than foxes and dogs? And yes plenty of people spend time in sharks territory, and they do get eaten, -- Michael Johnson 05:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
comment What? you're telling me you live in the stone age?... 21st century buddy. While wild animals may pose a passing threat to modern human animals, they are no great danger and in fact it is the wild animals who are actually now in danger from humans. My philosophical position is fine, however, I don't have time to be constantly arguing with everyone over simple facts. As to Owain. you're wrong, humans neither need or particuarly benefit from the consumption of animal protein, you'll find that plant protein is superior for a number of reasons, while I won't go into specifics, suffice to say that you can decrease the chances of getting numerous different types of cancer and life threatening disease by abstaining from the consumption of meat. Perhaps you would benefit from doing some proper reading on the health, environmental and social benefits of a vegan lifestyle. -- Librarianofages 15:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It is not very hard to be a healthy vegan without supplements these days (10, 20 years ago, you would have a point), most people I know manage fine. I don't need to defend my position, I just suggested to him that if his problem is that he can't get around the fact that murdering others is wrong then he should seek counseling: this was because I was running out of time to discuss, not because of any lack of substance in my argument. If you eat the flesh of another, are you not as good as a murderer? While you might want to continue this little discussion, I don't have time, look at it this way. In the instances where sharks attack humans, again, it is a case of mistaken identity, they generally mistake humans for seals. OTOH, While Massi society has not yet evolved enough to no longer need meat it is not a relevant argument to make as to the validity of eating meat, and no, it is not Okay for a Massi Tribesman to kill any other animal. Thank you for your time, I'm off on a field trip. -- Librarianofages 02:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Any way, aslong as people are still paying attention to this article, let me just add that this article should probably mention the crulty not only endured by fox but also the dogs that kill them. After all, training an animal to kill something thats not a usual part of there diet (an probably shares a few chromazoams with) must be mentally damageing to the dogs. And the physical strain they must endure to catch the quarry. I reminds me of the roman ampitheater were they would pit animal against animal, or victorian britain, were they pit a pack of dogs against bear or some other large animal. It all seems very primitive & reminds of the Fox and the hound, which was a sad story... 69.250.142.218 01:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I must apologise if you thought that I was being racist, there was no intention there at all. I was talking about the way that they live, not the people themselves, please excuse me! -- Librarianofages 01:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I have become interested recently in creating or helping to create a possible WikiProject covering Hunting, Shooting, Game animals etc. If anyone is interested, please sign your name at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Hunting. Cheers Greenfinch100 15:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to help bring together some disparate threads in this article, and reduce confusion, i propose changing the article name to "Hunting with hounds" or some similar title, which would enable the expansion of the sections on beagle and stag packs whilst keeping them in a sensible place. We could then create a separate "Fox hunting (shooting)" article to discuss the use of fox hunting in Australia along with lamping etc. and "Fox hunting" itself would become a DAB redirect page.
Most of all, it would allow the arguments (less POV!) on all the related hunting with hounds sports to be laid out in one place without repetition, and move this article towards GA or even FA status.
Any thoughts on this?
Owain.davies 05:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that "Fox Hunting" is the activity's common name; I've never heard it referred to as "Hunting with Hounds" outside the works of Kipling et al. There'd be a significant amount of confusion if the article was split, IMHO. -- Commander Zulu 10:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose as per Commander Zulu, there's no problem referring to the separate existing articles beagling and deer hunting. MikeHobday 12:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree It's absurd to have a section on various quarry animals, as well as a section on drag-hunting, yet have the title 'Fox hunting'. You can always have a redirect entry for Fox hunting (redirecting to 'Hunting with hounds' or more accurately, 'Hunting with scenthounds' as there's also hunting with sighthounds), but it shouldn't be the actual encyclopedia title. I think much of the problem is that MikeHobday is focused on English-style (originally French-style) hunting, and there are no coyotes or bears (or any other predator larger than a fox) in England. This is simply not true in the rest of the world where foxhounds are used for hunting animals other than foxes. There is also the confusion of hunting foxes using other means in other parts of the world, such as lamping. imo that's why this article wanders about so much and strays so far off topic. Flatterworld 01:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment And don't forget to include basset packs with the rest of the scenthounds. Flatterworld 20:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations to Owain.davies for merging the pro and anti sections so well. As I said above, this was a mess before. I have started to copy-edit, removing some arguments which are frankly irrelevant, but would welcome others to help address and improve this section. Hopefully, we can soon remove the POV tag from the article. MikeHobday 19:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Give the large amount of citations now added (although more are needed, admittedly) and the removal of large amounts of POV material, does anyone still feel that the article needs the large tag at the top regarding neutrality and factual accuracy? Personally, i feel we are about at the stage where it can be removed, and any last wrinkles ironed out with citations, with remaining contentious claims (if any???) removed. Owain.davies 12:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm assuming these sections are accurate for the US. Because they're not for the UK: Masters are not staff, whippers-in are often voluntary; There is no such thing as members invited/not invited to wear colours. MikeHobday ( talk) 18:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it is a generally bad idea to put uncited, potentially controversial information in to an article this contentious, even with the cop out of a fact tag. If you believe it can be cited, then provide the reference, otherwise the article will end up as a mass of POV again. Owain.davies ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Following Mike's reversion of a change from animal welfare to animal rights as he felt it is pejorative. I have read both Wikipedia pages (and before commenting, i would suggest anyone else does the same) and feel that the original edit was justified by the full descriptions in both articles. My understanding is that animal rights focuses on the concept of 'civil rights' of all animals, such as humans enjoy (such as freedom from being hunted, whereas animal welfare focuses on looking after animals who are under the care of humans. Based on this, an argument about the mistreatment of hounds would be animal welfare, whereas the hunting of foxes is clearly animal rights. I appreciate there may be overlap, but the very well sourced animal rights article makes no mention of pejorative usage, and i have to say i've never considered it to be such. Therefore I have changed back animal welfare to animal rights in the first instance. I would suggest that this is the only sensible option barring substantive changes to the two contribtary articles. Owain.davies 12:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the suggestion, made somewhere recently, that the Burns Inquiry should have a separate section. I probably think we need to revisit the order of sections of the article at the moment, not least because we are currently referencing the inquiry before it has been explained, which does not make sense. Finally, in the light of this source, [1], referencing a Guardian article which I cannot find (perhaps Guardian archives do not go back to 2000?), I think that the references to the status of individual Burns Inquiry memebrs is overblown to the point of POV. MikeHobday ( talk) 13:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It is my intention to soon list this article for consideration as a featured article, as I believe it meets the criteria quite well. Does anyone have any comments on the page before I list it. Sadly, it seems that Peer Review is largely ignored now, so I think it will have to go straight to FA.
Comments welcome. OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 18:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The article has been nominated for a FAC review. Apparently, it has not been nominated for a GA review. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Heh. I'll try to find time to address some of my concerns too (ducks) I know I'm picky! Ealdgyth | Talk 23:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Result: Not promoted. The FAC is archived here. -- Una Smith ( talk) 22:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I recently removed this information about there being unregistered, as well as registered packs from the article, principally because despite extensive searching I can't find a reference, and it is the nature of unregulated entities not to have reliable sources. It has been reinserted, but I am having trouble seeing how this will meet WP:V in the future.
Their existence is inferred in articles by the master of foxhounds association of the US, as this gives the benefits of being a member, but never explicitly mentions it.
I suggest, that unless anyone has a good idea about where to find a source that isn't a blog or forum, we are going to have to remove the information.
All suggestion welcome, OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 12:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It is POV to mention only one of several normal fates of hounds after their fox hunting days. It is POV regardless of which fate(s) are mentioned and which are omitted. Let's have some facts, please, from reliable, verified sources. How many hounds are retired per year, and where do they go? Euthanasia (and then? renderer? cremation? burial? fed to other hounds?), breeding programs, retirement homes, others? Lets do some research, get some facts, and leave emotions at the door. -- Una Smith ( talk) 22:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence for the time being for two reasons: 1) I read the references and found that the number (3,000) was suggested but was then lowered allowing for other 'fates,' and 2) the information was from the UK and does not reflect US practices in general. The information did not appear precise enough to be included here. We can do better. -- AeronM ( talk) 00:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this is the position. Burns says MFHA hunts put down 3,000 per year. This source [9] are the UK hare hunts saying they put down an additional 900 hounds per year, suggetsing around 4,000 is the right figure. I will reinstate. MikeHobday ( talk) 20:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
A minor point, hence merely Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Institutions. MikeHobday ( talk) 15:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
how did foxes surve during the big fox hunting era if any one has any info i have a school prject any help would be much appreshated. many fanks from confused nerd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.134.212 ( talk) 18:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
A member of IFAW ( User Talk:212.240.148.42) posted a couple of images to the article, one of which showed a mutilated fox. I don't think they're necessary, but I was reverted by MikeHobday. I'm going to remove them again until we have consensus. Should we Keep or Remove? -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 12:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Remove. Photographs of dead animals are not suitable for an encyclopedia, unless maybe the entry is "Dead Animals." We can describe the existing controversy without adding gratuitous gore meant to incite more controversy. -- AeronM ( talk) 02:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: I checked out a few other articles with controversial subjects, and "shock photos" were not allowed (see abortion for example). I believe the same principle applies here. -- AeronM ( talk) 14:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
It looks like it may be necessary to file an RfC as it does not appear we are going to reach a consensus on this one. In the mean time, per
Wikipedia:Image use policy (specifically "Do not place shocking or explicit pictures into an article unless they have been approved by a consensus of editors for that article.") I am removing the photo. --
AeronM (
talk) 23:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Owain has added that young foxes "are full size by autumn season as they are born in spring" using what looks like a pro-hunt source. I wonder if this is insufficiently nuanced? The academic source already quoted, [15] says "Mother and pups remain together until the autumn after the birth. Sexual maturity is reached by 10 months." In either case, I am not sure that this implies the degree of maturity that "full size" implies. Especially as autumn hunting sometimes starts in August, well before the Autumn. If the implication is that the foxes are no longer dependent cubs but are fully independent in their own right, that may not be true. If the claim is merely one about body length, I am not sure this is relevant. MikeHobday ( talk) 07:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Just finished the book, 'memoirs of a foxhunting man' and was interested to read that traditional hunting encourages farmers to looks after their hedges (and avoid using barbed wires) which helps protect butterflies and other hedge dwelling animals. Obviously, this is not an adequate source, however, i wonder whether the conservation benefits of fox hunting might be added to this article? (If we get some good sources together) ( Captain hoek ( talk) 19:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
I don't have a source for this - but I thought 'ratcatcher' was a tweed jacket and cloth cap and that the black coat is called 'black coat'. In the UK anyway. [16] Fainites barley 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I corrected that ratcatcher mention, but I think the whole attire section needs a rewrite. Tangledweb ( talk) 14:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The attire section seems to be a bit thin, poorly sourced and innaccurate in places or at least ignoring regional differences. I'll stay out of the controversial sections, but is anybody very attached to attire and likely to be offended if I rewrite it? Tangledweb ( talk) 14:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Following copied from user talk page of Captainclegg:
For the anti-hunting support and RSPCA ban, the cites don't support the statement, and so they can't stay.
For the movement through parliament, there is no citation for 'overwhelming public support', and i'm not entirely sure that the vote numbers are strictly relevant? If you could justify why you think they're relevant?
Thanks OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 19:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The RSPCA ban is a matter of fact and I wish to put that back in. The overwhelming support is borne out in nearly every opinion poll done before and after (see Advertising Standard Authority ruling). I assume you believe in democracy, so the Free Vote in the House and the huge majority is symptomatic of a representative sample of the population. That is the democracy we have where the MP's are our representatives. If you don't approve of that then that should be in a different article. I am VERY concerned at the general tenure of this article and it reads like a strong support for hunting and no counter-balance, which is what I am trying to inject. Captainclegg ( talk) 19:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Further discussion below:
Thank you. We now seem to be getting to the nub of the matter. OwainDavies is now dictating how old citations may be. Is that fair? He does not think that Parliament is representative... well its what we have and have had for a very long time. The vote was Free (no whips) and the huge majority came out against hunting. If you feel that Parliament is not representative of the wider population (supply citation please), I wonder if you would alter your opinion if the matter had been reversed! Captainclegg ( talk) 19:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
No, in no way is this approaching a personal attack and I apologise if you took it that way. Its just that I am new to Wikipedia + feel rather strongly about this subject! I just find the ability to override an edit is similar to bullying and not pleasant. I will stand down on this, otherwise I will just get really het up! Can you tell me if I am 'blocked'? I was unaware of that rule. I'm sorry. I just reacted strongly. Captainclegg ( talk) 19:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks. A considerable and considered improvement. Captainclegg ( talk) 22:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Whilst reading on-line, I happened upon this article by Professor Roger Scruton.
http://www.huntingmagazine.co.uk/pf_huntingban.htm . He talks about the ambiguity of words used in law, especially the English Language. He argues that "In English usage the verb ‘to hunt’ describes four quite different activities. Used intransitively, as in ‘Sarah hunts’, or ‘John hunts with the Old Berkshire’, it describes what we hunt followers do. We follow packs of hounds as they comb the open countryside in search of a scent. Nothing in the Act can conceivably be understood as forbidding that activity, which is after all a favourite pursuit among members of the League Against Cruel Sports. Hunting, in this sense, involves no intention to kill or even to chase an animal, but only an intention to keep up with a pack of hounds."
Could this article, in quite a prominent Hunting magazine, give reason to add another controversy with the law itself?
p.s. I am new to wikipedia for adding information and whatnot, hoping to help with this presumably new piece. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.86.94.80 (
talk) 03:14, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Please view this film from an online youth magazine as I would like to submit it as an external link. Thanks Willsmore ( talk) 16:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why is this word in scare quotes? Surely it is a bloodsport, and I don't think its proponants would deny this - whether that is a good thing or not is a matter for debate, but I would not have thought that this term was disputed? Trollderella 03:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
"Bloodsport" is usually used as a derogatory term for brutal forms of unregulated fighting and animal baiting. It is considered derogatory by one side (the hunters) and is generally only found in anti-hunting literature. The word simply reflects POV, and gives no useful information. "Hunting" already implies the possibility of death for the hunted animal. David A. Flory 06:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
As Canderra pointed out, a term can be lexically accurate and still POV. Hunting groups don't use the term; anti-hunting groups do. Hunters would argue that the term falsely suggests that point of hunting is to shed blood for sport, rather than to test one's riding, see the dogs' breeding and training in action, experience the excitement of the chase and the uncertainty of whether the fox will be caught or get away... Anti-hunting groups would say this is rubbish. It's a matter of POV. David A. Flory 04:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Bloodsport isn't derogatory. Its the way such sports are categorised. I disagree hunting already says that; many people go fishing but don't kill the fish. Catching butterflies in nets is a form of hunting even.-- Him and a dog 14:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I just looked it up at http://dictionary.cambridge.org and there is no suggestion it is derogatory. 81.154.181.177 ( talk) 11:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this text from the article:
While such claims are made, there is no evidence cited to suggest that the claims have any basis in fact. This article should be more than a series of claims if it is to be encyclopaedic. MikeHobday 06:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have twice removed this text from the article:
Without evidence that this problem is addressed by hunting foxes with pack of hounds in Australia, this cannot be a supporting argument for fox hunting. Perhaps it should be in the spotlighting article instead? MikeHobday 09:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've re-added a section on pest control, for the reason that the hunting of foxes with firearms in Australia is referred to as "Fox Hunting", and it is practiced as a sport (by calling foxes in with a fox whistle or spotlighting them). Granted, it doesn't have the attendant pomp and circumstance of English fox hunts, but the reality is that in this part of the world, foxes are hunted with firearms, not dogs, and it is still considered both a sporting pursuit AND a form of pest control. I have, however, deliberately left out references to baiting or poisoning foxes, as it doesn't really qualify as "hunting" (or even "sporting") in the traditional sense of the word. -- Commander Zulu 08:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey MikeHobday, I don't understand your rv comment. I suppose we agree that State sponsored fox hunting is in itself a valuable addition to this article. How can we improve the section? Perhaps you object to the pov or the place in the article, maybe lack of cites? Bye, Sander123 09:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
As i SAID main techniques used in Australia are baits and shooting. and perhaps this bounty, My problem is the confusion of the word fox hunt, MANY MANY austalians who go out to KILL (pest) fox spp would say they are "fox hunting". AS i also said below, there is harldy a tradition of fox hunting in asutralia AT ALL. I had never heard of it, and its not like im out of the loop, duck hunts are a HUGE issue here ever autumn, Fox hunting (else where is reported well. BUt not the hound fox hunt. And as i grew up in fox territoys ( ie the country) i feel i should know. Your revsion seems POV : "indeed that was the cause of the problem!" arn't we suposed to be unbiased, neither good nor bad???? Problem or not. Cilstr 06:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
"Variation: Drag hunting" is mentioned in the artical, you havn't taken it upon your self to remove that but yet, it is a from that which trained dogs DO NOT pursue Red Foxes. I thought the issue would be the of the foxes, and perhaps their welfare and that of the dogs and horses. The whole issue, not some (polical) agenda some have. NOt that i am pro hunt. i am most certainly NOT. (i mostly hate ebing reverted with out disscusion) (3 hours!!). Cilstr 15:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Incidently, how many active fox hunt clubs are there in australia? And whom is running the anti campain?? They are being very quiet... (perhaps because foxes(and cats) are eating our natives) Cilstr 16:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I recently made an edit to the one sentanace section "pest controll". ONe sentance!- hardly encolpedia worthy.. And yes i am annoyed my addtion was reverted with out a message to me. ( its on my watch list but wikipedia watch list only shows recent edits - not the ones to do with ,me....)
IN summation., 1) one sentance BEGGS to be elaborated on! 2) Further when one mentions "Fox hunting" to an australian- they will talk to you about SPOTLIGHTING and pest control, NOT the hunt with hounds, thus ( as an international encylopedia ) needs to be elaborated on. 3) UNtill i did a quick look up i (as an australian the grew up in the country regions had not ever heard of the so called sport (with hounds) ever occuring in australia. It seems there are about 6 clubs in australia- not a huge deal. I think is vitally important to mention the devestation that foxes do in australia - if you are to lump australia in with the rest of the fox hunting nations. eg "PM - Tasmania's fox hunt begins" :talking about shooting, www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s351581.htm Cilstr 06:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
From the article....
"The fox, or "Tod," as it is known in the British sport..."
Charley, Charles, Reynard, Red Rover - I've seen and heard these names used, but Tod? Can anyone provide more info on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanW ( talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
I found this english recipe for Fox Pasta. I wonder if we could put it in this listing -as it has to do with fox hunting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/4853388.stm
How many humans eat children? Besides I thought we were talking about speciesm, do sharks matter less than foxes and dogs? And yes plenty of people spend time in sharks territory, and they do get eaten, -- Michael Johnson 05:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
comment What? you're telling me you live in the stone age?... 21st century buddy. While wild animals may pose a passing threat to modern human animals, they are no great danger and in fact it is the wild animals who are actually now in danger from humans. My philosophical position is fine, however, I don't have time to be constantly arguing with everyone over simple facts. As to Owain. you're wrong, humans neither need or particuarly benefit from the consumption of animal protein, you'll find that plant protein is superior for a number of reasons, while I won't go into specifics, suffice to say that you can decrease the chances of getting numerous different types of cancer and life threatening disease by abstaining from the consumption of meat. Perhaps you would benefit from doing some proper reading on the health, environmental and social benefits of a vegan lifestyle. -- Librarianofages 15:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It is not very hard to be a healthy vegan without supplements these days (10, 20 years ago, you would have a point), most people I know manage fine. I don't need to defend my position, I just suggested to him that if his problem is that he can't get around the fact that murdering others is wrong then he should seek counseling: this was because I was running out of time to discuss, not because of any lack of substance in my argument. If you eat the flesh of another, are you not as good as a murderer? While you might want to continue this little discussion, I don't have time, look at it this way. In the instances where sharks attack humans, again, it is a case of mistaken identity, they generally mistake humans for seals. OTOH, While Massi society has not yet evolved enough to no longer need meat it is not a relevant argument to make as to the validity of eating meat, and no, it is not Okay for a Massi Tribesman to kill any other animal. Thank you for your time, I'm off on a field trip. -- Librarianofages 02:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Any way, aslong as people are still paying attention to this article, let me just add that this article should probably mention the crulty not only endured by fox but also the dogs that kill them. After all, training an animal to kill something thats not a usual part of there diet (an probably shares a few chromazoams with) must be mentally damageing to the dogs. And the physical strain they must endure to catch the quarry. I reminds me of the roman ampitheater were they would pit animal against animal, or victorian britain, were they pit a pack of dogs against bear or some other large animal. It all seems very primitive & reminds of the Fox and the hound, which was a sad story... 69.250.142.218 01:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I must apologise if you thought that I was being racist, there was no intention there at all. I was talking about the way that they live, not the people themselves, please excuse me! -- Librarianofages 01:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I have become interested recently in creating or helping to create a possible WikiProject covering Hunting, Shooting, Game animals etc. If anyone is interested, please sign your name at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Hunting. Cheers Greenfinch100 15:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to help bring together some disparate threads in this article, and reduce confusion, i propose changing the article name to "Hunting with hounds" or some similar title, which would enable the expansion of the sections on beagle and stag packs whilst keeping them in a sensible place. We could then create a separate "Fox hunting (shooting)" article to discuss the use of fox hunting in Australia along with lamping etc. and "Fox hunting" itself would become a DAB redirect page.
Most of all, it would allow the arguments (less POV!) on all the related hunting with hounds sports to be laid out in one place without repetition, and move this article towards GA or even FA status.
Any thoughts on this?
Owain.davies 05:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that "Fox Hunting" is the activity's common name; I've never heard it referred to as "Hunting with Hounds" outside the works of Kipling et al. There'd be a significant amount of confusion if the article was split, IMHO. -- Commander Zulu 10:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose as per Commander Zulu, there's no problem referring to the separate existing articles beagling and deer hunting. MikeHobday 12:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree It's absurd to have a section on various quarry animals, as well as a section on drag-hunting, yet have the title 'Fox hunting'. You can always have a redirect entry for Fox hunting (redirecting to 'Hunting with hounds' or more accurately, 'Hunting with scenthounds' as there's also hunting with sighthounds), but it shouldn't be the actual encyclopedia title. I think much of the problem is that MikeHobday is focused on English-style (originally French-style) hunting, and there are no coyotes or bears (or any other predator larger than a fox) in England. This is simply not true in the rest of the world where foxhounds are used for hunting animals other than foxes. There is also the confusion of hunting foxes using other means in other parts of the world, such as lamping. imo that's why this article wanders about so much and strays so far off topic. Flatterworld 01:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment And don't forget to include basset packs with the rest of the scenthounds. Flatterworld 20:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations to Owain.davies for merging the pro and anti sections so well. As I said above, this was a mess before. I have started to copy-edit, removing some arguments which are frankly irrelevant, but would welcome others to help address and improve this section. Hopefully, we can soon remove the POV tag from the article. MikeHobday 19:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Give the large amount of citations now added (although more are needed, admittedly) and the removal of large amounts of POV material, does anyone still feel that the article needs the large tag at the top regarding neutrality and factual accuracy? Personally, i feel we are about at the stage where it can be removed, and any last wrinkles ironed out with citations, with remaining contentious claims (if any???) removed. Owain.davies 12:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm assuming these sections are accurate for the US. Because they're not for the UK: Masters are not staff, whippers-in are often voluntary; There is no such thing as members invited/not invited to wear colours. MikeHobday ( talk) 18:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it is a generally bad idea to put uncited, potentially controversial information in to an article this contentious, even with the cop out of a fact tag. If you believe it can be cited, then provide the reference, otherwise the article will end up as a mass of POV again. Owain.davies ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Following Mike's reversion of a change from animal welfare to animal rights as he felt it is pejorative. I have read both Wikipedia pages (and before commenting, i would suggest anyone else does the same) and feel that the original edit was justified by the full descriptions in both articles. My understanding is that animal rights focuses on the concept of 'civil rights' of all animals, such as humans enjoy (such as freedom from being hunted, whereas animal welfare focuses on looking after animals who are under the care of humans. Based on this, an argument about the mistreatment of hounds would be animal welfare, whereas the hunting of foxes is clearly animal rights. I appreciate there may be overlap, but the very well sourced animal rights article makes no mention of pejorative usage, and i have to say i've never considered it to be such. Therefore I have changed back animal welfare to animal rights in the first instance. I would suggest that this is the only sensible option barring substantive changes to the two contribtary articles. Owain.davies 12:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the suggestion, made somewhere recently, that the Burns Inquiry should have a separate section. I probably think we need to revisit the order of sections of the article at the moment, not least because we are currently referencing the inquiry before it has been explained, which does not make sense. Finally, in the light of this source, [1], referencing a Guardian article which I cannot find (perhaps Guardian archives do not go back to 2000?), I think that the references to the status of individual Burns Inquiry memebrs is overblown to the point of POV. MikeHobday ( talk) 13:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It is my intention to soon list this article for consideration as a featured article, as I believe it meets the criteria quite well. Does anyone have any comments on the page before I list it. Sadly, it seems that Peer Review is largely ignored now, so I think it will have to go straight to FA.
Comments welcome. OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 18:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The article has been nominated for a FAC review. Apparently, it has not been nominated for a GA review. -- Una Smith ( talk) 04:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Heh. I'll try to find time to address some of my concerns too (ducks) I know I'm picky! Ealdgyth | Talk 23:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Result: Not promoted. The FAC is archived here. -- Una Smith ( talk) 22:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I recently removed this information about there being unregistered, as well as registered packs from the article, principally because despite extensive searching I can't find a reference, and it is the nature of unregulated entities not to have reliable sources. It has been reinserted, but I am having trouble seeing how this will meet WP:V in the future.
Their existence is inferred in articles by the master of foxhounds association of the US, as this gives the benefits of being a member, but never explicitly mentions it.
I suggest, that unless anyone has a good idea about where to find a source that isn't a blog or forum, we are going to have to remove the information.
All suggestion welcome, OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 12:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It is POV to mention only one of several normal fates of hounds after their fox hunting days. It is POV regardless of which fate(s) are mentioned and which are omitted. Let's have some facts, please, from reliable, verified sources. How many hounds are retired per year, and where do they go? Euthanasia (and then? renderer? cremation? burial? fed to other hounds?), breeding programs, retirement homes, others? Lets do some research, get some facts, and leave emotions at the door. -- Una Smith ( talk) 22:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence for the time being for two reasons: 1) I read the references and found that the number (3,000) was suggested but was then lowered allowing for other 'fates,' and 2) the information was from the UK and does not reflect US practices in general. The information did not appear precise enough to be included here. We can do better. -- AeronM ( talk) 00:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this is the position. Burns says MFHA hunts put down 3,000 per year. This source [9] are the UK hare hunts saying they put down an additional 900 hounds per year, suggetsing around 4,000 is the right figure. I will reinstate. MikeHobday ( talk) 20:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
A minor point, hence merely Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Institutions. MikeHobday ( talk) 15:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
how did foxes surve during the big fox hunting era if any one has any info i have a school prject any help would be much appreshated. many fanks from confused nerd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.134.212 ( talk) 18:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
A member of IFAW ( User Talk:212.240.148.42) posted a couple of images to the article, one of which showed a mutilated fox. I don't think they're necessary, but I was reverted by MikeHobday. I'm going to remove them again until we have consensus. Should we Keep or Remove? -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 12:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Remove. Photographs of dead animals are not suitable for an encyclopedia, unless maybe the entry is "Dead Animals." We can describe the existing controversy without adding gratuitous gore meant to incite more controversy. -- AeronM ( talk) 02:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: I checked out a few other articles with controversial subjects, and "shock photos" were not allowed (see abortion for example). I believe the same principle applies here. -- AeronM ( talk) 14:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
It looks like it may be necessary to file an RfC as it does not appear we are going to reach a consensus on this one. In the mean time, per
Wikipedia:Image use policy (specifically "Do not place shocking or explicit pictures into an article unless they have been approved by a consensus of editors for that article.") I am removing the photo. --
AeronM (
talk) 23:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Owain has added that young foxes "are full size by autumn season as they are born in spring" using what looks like a pro-hunt source. I wonder if this is insufficiently nuanced? The academic source already quoted, [15] says "Mother and pups remain together until the autumn after the birth. Sexual maturity is reached by 10 months." In either case, I am not sure that this implies the degree of maturity that "full size" implies. Especially as autumn hunting sometimes starts in August, well before the Autumn. If the implication is that the foxes are no longer dependent cubs but are fully independent in their own right, that may not be true. If the claim is merely one about body length, I am not sure this is relevant. MikeHobday ( talk) 07:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Just finished the book, 'memoirs of a foxhunting man' and was interested to read that traditional hunting encourages farmers to looks after their hedges (and avoid using barbed wires) which helps protect butterflies and other hedge dwelling animals. Obviously, this is not an adequate source, however, i wonder whether the conservation benefits of fox hunting might be added to this article? (If we get some good sources together) ( Captain hoek ( talk) 19:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
I don't have a source for this - but I thought 'ratcatcher' was a tweed jacket and cloth cap and that the black coat is called 'black coat'. In the UK anyway. [16] Fainites barley 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I corrected that ratcatcher mention, but I think the whole attire section needs a rewrite. Tangledweb ( talk) 14:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The attire section seems to be a bit thin, poorly sourced and innaccurate in places or at least ignoring regional differences. I'll stay out of the controversial sections, but is anybody very attached to attire and likely to be offended if I rewrite it? Tangledweb ( talk) 14:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Following copied from user talk page of Captainclegg:
For the anti-hunting support and RSPCA ban, the cites don't support the statement, and so they can't stay.
For the movement through parliament, there is no citation for 'overwhelming public support', and i'm not entirely sure that the vote numbers are strictly relevant? If you could justify why you think they're relevant?
Thanks OwainDavies ( about)( talk) edited at 19:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The RSPCA ban is a matter of fact and I wish to put that back in. The overwhelming support is borne out in nearly every opinion poll done before and after (see Advertising Standard Authority ruling). I assume you believe in democracy, so the Free Vote in the House and the huge majority is symptomatic of a representative sample of the population. That is the democracy we have where the MP's are our representatives. If you don't approve of that then that should be in a different article. I am VERY concerned at the general tenure of this article and it reads like a strong support for hunting and no counter-balance, which is what I am trying to inject. Captainclegg ( talk) 19:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Further discussion below:
Thank you. We now seem to be getting to the nub of the matter. OwainDavies is now dictating how old citations may be. Is that fair? He does not think that Parliament is representative... well its what we have and have had for a very long time. The vote was Free (no whips) and the huge majority came out against hunting. If you feel that Parliament is not representative of the wider population (supply citation please), I wonder if you would alter your opinion if the matter had been reversed! Captainclegg ( talk) 19:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
No, in no way is this approaching a personal attack and I apologise if you took it that way. Its just that I am new to Wikipedia + feel rather strongly about this subject! I just find the ability to override an edit is similar to bullying and not pleasant. I will stand down on this, otherwise I will just get really het up! Can you tell me if I am 'blocked'? I was unaware of that rule. I'm sorry. I just reacted strongly. Captainclegg ( talk) 19:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks. A considerable and considered improvement. Captainclegg ( talk) 22:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Whilst reading on-line, I happened upon this article by Professor Roger Scruton.
http://www.huntingmagazine.co.uk/pf_huntingban.htm . He talks about the ambiguity of words used in law, especially the English Language. He argues that "In English usage the verb ‘to hunt’ describes four quite different activities. Used intransitively, as in ‘Sarah hunts’, or ‘John hunts with the Old Berkshire’, it describes what we hunt followers do. We follow packs of hounds as they comb the open countryside in search of a scent. Nothing in the Act can conceivably be understood as forbidding that activity, which is after all a favourite pursuit among members of the League Against Cruel Sports. Hunting, in this sense, involves no intention to kill or even to chase an animal, but only an intention to keep up with a pack of hounds."
Could this article, in quite a prominent Hunting magazine, give reason to add another controversy with the law itself?
p.s. I am new to wikipedia for adding information and whatnot, hoping to help with this presumably new piece. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.86.94.80 (
talk) 03:14, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Please view this film from an online youth magazine as I would like to submit it as an external link. Thanks Willsmore ( talk) 16:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)