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I hope that this comment will be of interest and value to other editors, whether you agree with what I say here or not. I will only say what I see as wrong with this article, and not present a way forward to solve it, nor will I attempt an RfC at this stage. I think that was one of the things I got wrong before in the long collapsed discussions above. The starting point is to decide if they are issues first.
The ideas in the article are presented in some detail and to explain what I see as wrong with them requires a similarly detailed reply. These points are not easy to follow if split over a thread consisting of many comments, and I see that as one of the other main things that I got wrong in the previous discussions. So, to avoid breaking up and confusing this exposition, please add any comments in the #4. Discussion section below. Your co-operation in this is much appreciated. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The Four Noble Truths of the old lede have been replaced by four statements which describe a non Buddhist aim to end rebirth back into the "mundane world" of Samsara.
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 12:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
In detail:
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The
previous lede stated the truths correctly as the truths of suffering (or more generally unsatisfactoriness), origin, cessation and path.
[1]. This is how most books, articles and online
WP:RS sources introduce them, followed by a detailed exposition of each truth in turn
[2]
Cite error: A One of the most distinctive features of Buddhism is that Buddha taught that cessation is something you can realize in this very lifetime. This can be challenging for readers who come to it with the background of another religion. Indeed, though we can all directly realize what suffering and dissatisfaction is from our own experience, according to the Pali Canon, only one of Buddha's first disciples, venerable Kondañña, directly realized the truth of what he was saying about cessation right away when he first taught them [9]. Several readers posted to the talk page complaining that they didn't understand the four truths, not surprisingly, and that is why the lede got rewritten. Unfortunately, this rewrite turned them into statements describing a way of escape from "this mundane world" at death. This may indeed make them more familiar to you, and so easier to understand, if you are used to other religions. However, that doesn't make them more correct. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Professor Walpola Rahula's book "What the Buddha Taught" is widely regarded as one of the best expositions of the central teachings in the Pali canon by both Eastern and Western scholars alike. By way of example, Richard Gombrich in the preface to his new book "What the Buddha Thought" says "The title of this book is a gesture of homage to the late Ven. Dr Walpola Rahula, who taught me much of what I understand of early Buddhism" [2]. It has 67 citations in google scholar in the last year alone [3]. He was a Pali expert thoroughly familiar with the canon of the Therevadhan sutras. He put it like this in his exposition of the Third Noble Truth [4]:
The four truths are understood in this way in all the main sutra traditions, Zen [5], Tibetan [6], Therevadhan [7], etc. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Far from the Buddha having to die to reach enlightenment, the Pali Canon also states in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that Buddha didn't have to enter paranirvana either when he did. Ananda could have asked him to remain to the end of this world period, but he didn't get the hint. [8]
Although the historical Buddha entered paranirvana when he died, in the Tibetan traditions at least they also have the idea that other Buddhas can "emanate" after they die and take birth as young babies again over and over [9] (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) It's also worth noting that the wheel turning sutra [10] does not include the word "rebirth" in any form. Instead the teachings are based around dukkha. This is makes them far more accessible, as all that is required of the practitioner is to recognize the truth of suffering or unsatisfactoriness, which is a truth easy of access to anyone. After that, all that is needed to follow the path is an open mind, and a dedication to seeing the truth and to recognize clearly what you know and what you don't know. That open mind also applies to what happens when you die. If the truths were based around an aim to end rebirth, then you would need to affirm a belief first, such as "I believe in rebirth", before you could start on the path. This would close your mind to other possibilities. It would be a way of declaring that you are have decided in advance that any other ideas about what happens when you die are wrong. But Buddhists don't have any such creed, even in the Tibetan traditions, which have the strongest emphasis of any on the process of rebirth, including recognition of reborn Tulkus. Instead, you commit to an open mind when you become a Buddhist. See for instance Trungpa Rinpoche's exposition of requirements for taking refuge [11], in the ceremony during which one affirms that one has chosen to follow the Buddhist path. I know that there is a movement amongst some Westerners to try to identify what they take to be the original authentic teachings and to reinterpret the sutras. In the previous discussion then the other editors provided cites which they claimed presented the view that when Buddha became enlightened, all that happened is that he got an intimation that after death he would never be reborn again. But they were cites to densely argued complex technical discussions in the academic literature, and I was not convinced that these discussions were interpreted correctly. Whether or not any WP:RS present such views, this is certainly not how the four truths are presented by most Buddhist scholars or teachers, nor is it how Buddhist practitioners understand them, and nor is it how they are presented in the original wheel turning sutra in the Pali canon. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) None of the editors in the previous discussion found a Buddhist sutra cite for this word (mentioned in note 1 in the current version). It is used in Hindu and pre Buddhist texts but these texts are not recognized as sutras by Buddhists. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Instead they gave cites to the Pali phrase agatigati, where agati means coming and gati means going. This is translated as
Most Buddhist readers will not be familiar with the term "redeath". If I can take myself as an example reader, I have listened to teachers from many traditions including Therevadhan, Korean Zen and three branches of Tibetan Buddhism (Nyingmapa, Gelugpa and Kagyupa), over a period of 30 years. I have never heard any of them use it. Nor have I ever heard any fellow Buddhists use the word. The word "rebirth" is familiar to most but not the word "redeath". Another Buddhist who responded to the RfC was also not familiar with the term. Perhaps it is only familiar to those who have read many Western scholarly papers on the topic. If one needs a translation of agatigati, what is wrong with "rebirth and death" which avoids need for this technical term at all? The article currently has ten uses of the word "redeath". All of those could be replaced by "death" with no loss of meaning. As evidence that "redeath" is a rare word in English, and therefore WP:TECHNICAL, it's not found in these online dictionaries: (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) In the Pali Canon, in the Kalama sutta, Buddha made a clean break with the past, saying that scriptures and other sources such as the Vedas must not be followed just because they are scriptures but must be tested by "the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise." (quoting the translator's note). This makes it different from the situation of Christianity or Islam which both treat the Old Testament as sacred. For Buddhists, the Vedas are not sacred in this sense. So, should the article use the the word Punarmrtyu in note 1? That note gives it as an internal link to Saṃsāra#Punarmrityu:_redeath which is pre-Buddhist. Wikipedia describes it as
In more detail it is described here "Buddhist rituals of Death and Rebirth":
This is a historical section called "Some historical roots : time of death". It is not describing Buddhist ideas at this point. The four statements in the new lede seem to be based on this idea. Buddhists don't have this idea of heaven as a state between death and rebirth. The sutras do describe states of bliss that one can enter, in this life or future lives, or rather many such, each more refined than the last. Some are described with "luminous bodies" [15], and some as just pure mind. But all this is a part of the cycle of rebirth. These blissful realms, are treated as another rebirth of the many possible in the cycle of Samsara. They are not thought of as separate from Samsara. The new lede describes a way of escaping Samsara through somehow "stopping karma" so that you no longer have to take rebirth back into this "mundane world". This would seem to have close parallels with this non Buddhist idea of Punarmrtyu or stopping "redeath from heaven":
These four statements do not occur in this form in any Buddhist source. Though that section is heavily cited to the Buddhist literature, it is a WP:SYNTHESIS made up of ideas from many Buddhist sources combined together to make a whole that is no longer Buddhist. Compare the four truths as they were stated in the previous lede:
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Therevadhans don't have the idea of an intermediate state between death and the next rebirth at all. Instead, they say that the next thought-moment after your death is the first thought-moment of your new rebirth. Here is professor Walpola Rahula describing this Therevadhan view on death and rebirth in "THE SECOND NOBLE TRUTH: SAMUDAYA: THE ARISING OF DUKKHA".
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Some Buddhists do think in terms of an intermediate state between death and the next rebirth, for instance in the Tibetan teachings. However, it is not described as a heavenly state. Rather, it is described for most beings as like being overwhelmed by exceedingly bright lights and loud noises like the loudest thunder, which most beings run away from, terrified, at that point and so take rebirth again. In the Tibetan Book of the Dead (translation by Chogyam Trungpa with Francesca Fremantle)
This could hardly be further from the pre-Buddhist Vedic idea of alternating between this life and a heavenly state with the aim of avoiding redeath in order to remain in the heavenly state. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Tibetans do have the idea of a Bardo state between death and rebirth, but the aim is not at all to remain within Bardo which is seen as terrifying and bewildering for most beings, and not a heavenly state at all. Rather the idea in the Tibetan Book of the Dead is to find a way to awaken from the Bardo, to awaken to those bright lights and loud sounds, or failing that, to find your way to a fortunate rebirth where you may be able to awaken as Buddha did during that lifetime. Therevadhans don't have the idea of an intermediate state between death and rebirth. For them your last moment of death is followed immediately by the first moment of the process of rebirth in another lifetime. So, the idea behind Punamrtyu of avoiding "redeath" from an intermediate state between death and rebirth can't even be stated in a Therevadhan context. The note doesn't make it clear that this is a non Buddhist idea. I think this is another reason to avoid the use of the technical word "redeath" in the article in translations of Agatigati. Scholars can be expected to understand "rebirth and redeath" in a Buddhist context as meaning repeated ordinary deaths, with each "redeath" leading to the start of the next rebirth in the next moment of thought (in the Pali canon at least). However, a non scholar reader could easily confuse this with the non Buddhist idea of death leading to heaven and "redeath" leading from heaven back to Samsara. This confusion seems especially likely to happen since the footnote links to a passage in wikipedia describing "redeath" in the non Buddhist sense. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) This article presents the view according to which the Four Noble Truths are a later development and were not taught by the historical Buddha. This is a view at one end of a continuum. At the other end of the continuum is the view of Prayudh Payutto and several other scholars according to which the teachings of the Pali canon for the most part consist of the words recorded at the time of the Great Council after Buddha died. The only exceptions are some obviously later texts. This is not a view based on faith but rather on scholarship. In the Pali Canon it's said that after the death of Vardhamana, or as Buddhists refer to him, Nirgrantha, leader of the Jains, Buddha's followers noticed that his followers fell into discussion and dispute about what his teachings were. They didn't want that to happen to Buddha's teachings. At the time Northern India didn't have writing. However, as scholars generally agree, the Brahmins were able to preserve the Vedas word for word through memorization, and many of Buddha's disciples were Brahmins trained to do this. So, the sutras say, they committed his teachings to memory while he was still alive. After he died, then they held a great council during which they agreed on the material in the Pali Canon and recited each sutra in unison. With this internal evidence from within the sutras themselves, it is at least possible that what we have preserved are the teachings as memorized in the first great council, pretty much word for word. After all, it is generally agreed that the Brahmins achieved that with the Vedas. In support of this view they present these main reasons:
For the details of this view, see
Many scholars hold intermediate views. For example: Peter Harvey, "Introduction to Buddhism: teachings, history and practices", says
Richard Gombrich says in an interview [16]
By presenting only one view, and such an extreme view in the debate, the current article is very WP:POV. The wikipedia article on the Pali Canon under: Attribution according to scholars presents the full range of views on this matter, in a WP:NPOV way. Surely the approach used in the Pali Canon article is more in accord with wikipedia guidelines. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Once again, if anyone reading this objects to this post, please just let me know. I have no wish to post here if my posts are unwelcome, thanks. It's six days since my last post so hopefully this is not seen as excessive. And probably this is all that I have to say at this stage but I felt I should post a bit more after reading Gombrich's book which gave me some more insight into what I think the issue may be here. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC) I've just been reading Gombrich's "What the Buddha Thought" [17] and was surprised to find that he presents an "escape from this mundane world" interpretation. He is a top scholar in the field of Western academic Buddhism, though he admits that he doesn't have Walpola Rahula's depth of understanding of the vast encyclopedia sized Pali Canon - few Westerners do. Richard Gombrich's main thesis (if I understand it right) is that:
He also presents this thesis in short form on his Oxford home page [18]. The basic message according to him is
As I said above, at least for someone approaching this as a Buddhist in the sutra traditions, what he says seems to be inconsistent in almost all respects with the way that Walpola Rahula and other modern Buddhist scholars and teachers in these traditions present it. He seems to be of the view that these interpretations don't quite make sense as is, but that with his humanist reinterpretation they can be transformed into something that does make sense. Please correct me if I have made any mistakes in this summary of his views. His approach can be especialy hard to understand if you are used to the way the four truths are traditionally understood and explained in the main sutra traditions, perhaps just as hard to understand as the traditional approach clearly is for those who approach this in the other direction.. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC) |
In summary:
So first, is this an accurate summary of the present day situation, of what is said in the WP:RS that I summarized?
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
What should we do if those conclusions about what is said in the WP:RS on this subject are correct? I think we can learn a lot by looking at the articles on Christianity. Most Buddhists don't speak English (over half are Chinese, and the next most common by population are the Thai and Japanese [19]), and there are only 535 million Buddhists world wide compared with 2.2. billion Christians. Also, the majority of English speaking editors of Wikipedia are much more familiar with Christianity than Buddhism. The wikipedia articles on theology are of a high standard.
So, let's take a similarly central article in Christianity: Resurrection of Jesus. In the section on Historicity and origin you learn that there is a wide range of scholarly views about whether this event happened and what the event was. However, the lede relies on the biblical account, and there is no suggestion that the lede be rewritten to mention these views.
In a similar way, the old lede presented the four truths as they are presented in the canon. As with the lede for Resurrection of Jesus, this is not taking a WP:POV on the scholarly debate about what Buddha originally taught, it just gives the teachings as they are presented in the sutras, just as the lede for Resurrection of Jesus gives the teachings as presented in the Bible. Of course Richard Gombrich's views are notable, and interesting, and need to be mentioned. It's a matter of where and how this is done.
Whatever the decision is, as a modern Buddhist reader myself, I feel that it is especially important that the lede does not give the false view that most modern Buddhists aim to escape from this "mundane world" and to prevent rebirth when they die. That is so different from the views and practice of most Buddhist practitioners including many of the most respected Buddhist scholars and teachers like Walpola Rahula as described in many WP:RS. It is as if the lede of Resurrection of Jesus falsely promulgated the idea that most Christians don't believe in the resurrection.
The way it is done at present in the lede for Four Noble Truths is a bit like someone rewriting the lede of Resurrection of Jesus to attempt a coherent "best account" of what "really happened" according to the views of theologians that the wikipedia author of the lede thinks "got it right". That surely can't be the right way to do it, and the way that it is handled in theological articles on wikipedia may show the way to an alternative approach to this issue.
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Please discuss here to avoid breaking up and confusing the exposition above. Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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I thought I'd just briefly state the main points again, perhaps I went into too much detail. Check the collapsed sections above for the sources, quotes and details for what I say below and if you have any questions do say.
I think it can't be denied that Walpola Rahula said that Buddha reached cessation in the sense of the four truths, already in his own lifetime. Also it can't be denied that Walpola Rahula is highly respected by Western and Eastern academics alike as an expert on Therevadha Buddhism and the Pali Canon. And Richard Gombrich also agreed that this is the view of modern Buddhists. I gave cites and quotes that support this without question, in the collapsed section above.
Then, it's true that Richard Gombrich says that in his view this is the result of later authors rewriting some of the Pali Canon and is inauthentic, not the view of the Buddha himself. He doesn't deny that it is the view of modern sutra tradition Buddhists. He just finds it puzzling and thinks that Buddha's original teachings must have been misunderstood and rewritten.
On rebirth and redeath, then it's true that the sutras use a phrase "coming and going" that can be translated this way. But it is just ordinary death and rebirth within samsara. No evidence at all has been given that Buddhists have the idea of redeath from a heavenly state from Hinduism. Cites to the Vedas can't establish this as the Vedas are not sacred texts for Buddhists. Also the word is not used in the wheel turning sutras.
On the view of inauthenticity of the Pāli Canon, Anderson's view is at an extreme range of a spectrum. And even she, as a Buddhist herself, agrees that the sutras are the basis for the practices of modern Buddhists, whatever it is that Buddha himself orignally said.
The Pāli Canon article here presents the full range of views. That includes the view of authenticity, held by many scholars, that most of the Pali Canon, apart from some obviously later texts, was memorized by the same process used to memorize the Vedas and records nearly word for word what the monks recited together in the first great council after Buddha died, and that they started to memorize his teachings before he died, as recorded in the Pāli Canon. All are agreed that Mahayana texts are a later composition, and that some Pāli Canon texts are too. But for many internal reasons, also supported by archaeology, many scholars are of the view that much of the Pāli Canon dates back to shortly after the death of the Buddha and records events that happened during his lifetime, the technology of his lifetime, and surely also, the speeches of the Buddha as they were memorized by monks during his lifetime.
So, given that, then the earlier version of this article was much more mainstream. It presented the four truths as they are undestoood by modern Buddhists in the sutra traditions, as Gombrich himself agrees. It is true that it did not present Richard Gombrich's views or Anderson's views and the views of a few other Western Buddhist scholars. But surely the solution is not to rewrite the article so that it only presents the views of Gombrich and Anderson. The previous article did not discuss the authenticity of the sutras. Again surely the solution, if such a section is needed, is to include the entire range of views on this matter rather than just the views of Gombrich and Anderson. I am sure that Gombrich and Anderson themselves, as good scholars, would not want an article on the Four Noble Truths to present only their views.
Robert Walker ( talk) 11:16, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi @ Joshua Jonathan: first glad to hear you have agreed on the need to make some changes so that the article briefly mentions some views of Walpola Rahula on modern Therevadhan Buddhism, in one short sentence in the historical section and in a footnote. But the article is still entirely from the WP:POV of Western academic Buddhism, and even those statements about the views of Walpola Rahula are presented as "incorrect", filtered through the lens of Gombrich.
In your concluding statement in that footnote, you say: (emphasis mine).
"Since truth can only be a property of propositions, which have subjects and predicates, and nirvana is not a proposition, it makes no sense in English to say that nirvana is truth.".
This contrast between "According to Rahula" and "Gombrich notes that" implies editorial approval of Gombrich's statement as a truth. But it is just Gombrich's view that "Nirvana IS TRUTH" makes no sense. After all Keats in his Ode on a Grecian Urn wrote
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," – that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. (lines 49–50)
Is he implying that Keats didn't understand how to use the English language? "Beauty" is not a proposition. So even the small changes you have made, as read by a modern Buddhist, are still highly WP:POV because of the way you give the Western viewpoint the last word and present it as correct.
It's the same all the way through that footnote:
Whenever you approve of an author's views you say that they note whatever their view is.
I hope you can appreciate that it will take a fair number of words to respond to your many points in the post you made a few days ago. My next post will be about secondary sources however as I think that is the most important thing to address first. Should the articles be based on authors like Gombrich and Anderson etc primarily or should they be based on authors like Walpola Rahula and the Dalia Lama mainly? Also, I'll add a POV tag. I'll also do a very short bullet list summary of my later replies which I can add later. Robert Walker ( talk) 14:27, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@Robertinventor: Presenting Rahula's views and other scholars (Gombrich) disagreements with Rahula is important for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, I read part of that draft on reliable sources in Buddhism; I suggest you come with concrete proposals for additions and/or changes, like RegentsPark suggested:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:23, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
The essay is ready now. As it is relevant to many articles in the project, please discuss here: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to the article. The edit summary is:
"POV tag - Bias towards western academics - Gombrich etc - to detriment of recognized and well-regarded Buddhist authors Walpola Rahula, Dalai Lama, etc. No details on view of authenticity of sutras. Rewrite of four truths in lede is WP:SYNTHESIS"
For the issues in detail, please see #Short summary of the issues with this article above.
(preceding line added as a result of the POV tag redirection [21]) Robert Walker ( talk) 21:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
As a reminder, you may remove this template whenever any of the following is true:
(see Template:POV#When_to_remove).
We don't have a consensus to remove it at present, as I think will be clear to almost anyone reading this talk page. Your recent edits have not solved these problems in my view @ Joshua Jonathan:. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning my edit summary of the main issues in the tag - but you just redirected the tag from #Short summary of the issues with this article to this post. I've therefore edited my post above to link back to the short summary of the issues which is what I intended the tag to link to originally. It does make sense to redirect it here, but of course the reader has to get to the list of issues with the article. So this seems one of those situations where you have to edit your comment after it has been repleid to.
I have made plenty of comments today so will leave replies to your further posts above to later. I already have a backlog of many other things to reply to as well from your previous post, below and will do so when I get the time, thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 21:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Just to say - I do have concrete proposals, not just for this article but for several affected articles. I've mentioned them several times on this page - here is the link again: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal Robert Walker ( talk) 23:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@Robertinventor: We have been through this last year. Your explanation for the tag does not make sense, and I will remove it shortly if you do not address, "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given". For example, you write in "Three things wrong with this article" section, a wall of text which includes allegations that are simply wrong because what you claim does not verify. You wrote in "Details" section, as an illustration:
If you read Harvey's explanation of the primary text carefully, he uses the word "rebirth" five times!
Peter Harvey's publications such as An Introduction to Buddhism, published in 2013 by Cambridge University Press clearly link and extensively discuss 4NT with rebirth (pages 32-43, 50-87), citing numerous Suttas. Please explain your alleged claims against Peter Harvey? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I think answering you on this particular point in which you are referring to an old discussion from long ago may not be the most productive way ahead. I do have replies to all that but I have already made those replies long ago, and you replied to them and we would just replay an old discussion here. And it is also a minute detail and doesn't address the main issues mentioned in the tag. Also it is better to talk about such things at a higher level, about the conclusions of Walpola Rahula etc rather than to try to argue the point ourselves from scratch which risks verging into WP:OR. Will make a longer reply later. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC) Robert Walker ( talk) 11:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
(I think many of these points are tangential to the main point under discussion)
I will answer the other points you raised above gradually over the next few days in order to avoid any possibility of being taken back to WP:ANI for verboseness, and also to make it easier for anyone watching this page to follow our conversation. I hope you can understand that in the circumstances, which we all know so no need to repeat them.
I will focus my replies on these four main points, because they seem to be important to you.
Your edits and replies above do not address these points. But to explain so, I will need to go into detail on each of those points. I have already replied to them in the collapsed section above. But it seems I need to say the same again in more detail.
Also, the points I gave in the summary above remain, and you haven't yet answered them. Indeed I think there probably is no way to answer them. See #Short summary of the issues with this article. You raised so many points in your very long reply #Reply by JJ that it was hard to know where to start. I chose the list of four above as a starting pint, because they seemed to be key points for you.
I think myself that the issue here is a difference of WP:POV and that many of these problems would be solved if we had separate articles for the WP:SUBPOV of western academics and the very different WP:SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhist. Otherwise we could easily go on endlessly trying to answer each other, rather like Christians and Muslims trying to work out the best way to write an article on the Resurrection of Jesus. Perhaps the reason we get so much fruitless discussion here is because what we are attempting is impossible?
The issues you raised are issues for western academics who are attempting a humanistic reintepretation of the Buddhist teachings, also informed by ideas from Indian Vedic religions (which sutra based Buddhism is not of course). When I answer these issues, I of course talk about how WP:RS in the sutra traditions of Buddhism think about such ideas. They simply don't have these issues. Because they think about the teachings differently. But my answers may well not be satisfactory to you, because they won't answer them in ways that western academics find helpful in this topic area because they won't be answers based on a humanistic and Vedic interpretation of the Buddhist ideas based around ideas of an afterlife, of "getting out of Samsara", and other ideas that are quite foreign to how Buddhists think about it all.
I think it is possible that my Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal has a chance to resolve many of these issues, by just recognizing these as valid distinct WP:SUBPOV, and so making two versions of each article according to the distinct WP:SUBPOVs. If that happens, then perhaps it may simplify many things and I wont need to do all these replies to your points :). Robert Walker ( talk) 21:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I will also add a post about quotes. This was your original stated reason for doing a major rewrite of this article. But there was no consensus. We had a discussion during which you said the quotes needed to be removed, @ Dorje108: wanted to retain them but as a compromise suggested doing paraphrases. He asked for time to do this as the quotes were succint statements by experts in the sutra traditions and not easy to summarize because they already used carefully chosen words to express their points. So we had three options here under discussion - to remove the quotes, to paraphrase them, and to keep them. All these options were actively under discussion when you chose to remove them all, and when asked to revert and discuss first, ignored what he said. This is not what editing by consensus means! We didn't even have an RfC on the matter.
Meanwhile we discovered later, a few weeks later, that you had written other articles that consisted almost entirely of quotes, when another editor took you to ARE on a charge of Copyvio. The admins gave you only a mild rebuke, "Joshua Jonathan is advised to use quotation marks or to paraphrase content from external source [23], and you weren't sanctioned by the admins. But the action was rather striking to those of us who had just recently watched you remove all of @ Dorje108:'s quote from this article.
Since you and other editors continue to remove quotes from Buddhism articles here whenever they are added I think that it may be useful to do a similar study of use of quotes in articles on religion, similarly to my essay on reliable secondary sources. I'll look at the guidelines, and I'll also look at actual practice in articles in the topic area of religion here in Wikipedia. These essays take a fair bit of my time, though I think well worth doing. I'll do that maybe a week or two from now. It may help. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
My plan is to post about these issues, one at a time, on separate days, to minimize the risk of being taken back to WP:ANI. It will also help readers here to follow the discussions. To post so much in one go and then to have comments on them would surely be rather overwheliming. I'll probably start on it some time next week. Robert Walker ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's focus on the positive. I hope to write an essay on use of quotes in articles on religion as applied to Buddhism. Perhaps we can return to this topic when I write that essay. It won't be for a week or two probably. Robert Walker ( talk) 22:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welsh: when we take the mnemonic set, samudaya has a double meaning, referring to '_bound together with_ this fleeting world and its unsatisfactoriness [is] longing for this fleeting world (which is utterly foolish, un-arya)', and to the continuation of samsara by this craving (pratitya-samutpada), right? And nirodha refers to the cessation of craving, but also, similar to the previous second meaning, to the reversal of pratitya-samutpada. With other words, the basic set is confusing: dukkha-samutpada is to easily interpreted as "craving causes suffering," while it also means "craving co es with dukkha." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:06, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
We use her a lot in this article. According to [24] it´s Carol S. Anderson. Carol Anderson doesn´t seem to fit. If she can´t wikilinked, we should at least cite "professor of whatever at wherever" or somesuch. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I've added the following comment: "[This full set,] which is most commonly used in modern expositions,". Together with that comment, I re-inserted part of an old note b by Dorje108, in response to a comment by Robert at Talk:Four Noble Truths#What's wrong - short summary - Four Truths incorrectly stated, Redeath technical, and POV statements on authenticity, subsection "Background - How the Four Noble Truths came to be stated incorrectly in this article":
Robert was at least partly correct here: most books etc. do present the four truths in this way. It is how they are presented in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, which figures prominently at the opening of the article: Four Noble Truths#Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. But saying that this is how the Buddha presented them needs a qualification; and there are Sutras which present them in another way. As Norman and Anderson, and others, make clear, the four truths probably were not part of the oldest versions of this sutra; there are several versions of the four truths, mnemonic and more expanded; and the four truths may refer to various subjects, not only dukkha. Ironically, Dorje108 stated in that note:
Actually, they have all presented a quite similar translation of just one list, what Norman called the "full list," with just one subject, namely dukkha. The idea that this is "the essential list" may be a personal conclusion.
So, it's not a matter of stating "the" truths "correctly," as if thre is only one set and one fixed meaning. It's matter of selection from a range of sets, subjects and meanings; only one set with only one subject is usually being presented; and only one translation c.q. interpretation is usually being given. It shows the consequences of relying one-sidedly at one's own understanding of popular sources, and ignoring the scholarly literature, which can give a much broader background. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it is the interpretation/meaning where the colors and hues emerge, not the "correct statement". The above was clear in this article version last month, and this further clarification is welcome. Let us keep the article size, and the subject focus in perspective, as JimRenge rightly reminds in various Buddhism space articles. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:30, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: I think that a few lines have to be added about the Viapssana movement; that's probably from where comes this emphasis om happiness. See:
What do you think? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
JJ: Your intent is good, but the article may be better and more stable if we avoid SPS and blogs such as vividness.live, and instead summarize some peer reviewed RS on this. There was a chapter by Fronsdal in a book edited by Charles Prebish about Vipassana for happiness, with complete silence on rebirth/wheel/hungry ghosts/realms of existence etc. I will locate it, check if he mentioned 4NT, and then update the source/etc later today. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 11:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
JJ: Why do we have Fake Buddha Quotes? Wouldn't something from some RS be better as refn notes? I left that in for now, but am wondering, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
As a lay-person, who doesn´t know a lot about buddhism, I find the lead of this article very hard to read and enjoy (I haven´t read beyond the lead, it was sort of discouraging). It seems to be written for an audience of people with in-depth knowledge, but that is not the usual WP-way.
Take the first section:
The Four Noble Truths (Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni) are "the truths of the Noble Ones,"[1] the truths or realities which are understood by the "worthy ones"[web 1] who have attained Nirvana.[2][web 1] The truths are dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, and the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.
Apart from "Nirvana", these are all unfamiliar concepts to me, and reading it gives me very little. It doesn´t mention buddhism, or what dukkha is, that comes later, the "painful incapableness of satisfying". So this lead seems to state that the four truths (buddhistic concept) are: painful incapableness of satisfying exists, where it comes from, that it can cease, and how to make it cease.
I could go into more detail, but, editors who know the subject, please read the lead from the POV of a reader who´ve heard of buddhism, but not the sutras (or think it´s spelled "suras"), the Pali canon, the entire dhamma matrix, prajna, dhyana, Theravada tradition, Mahayana tradition, or the Bodhisattva-path. I guess what I´m asking is much less "insider-language" in the lead, leave this (with explananations) more for the body of the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 05:52, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Gråbergs Gråa Sång: I've changed "formulaic" into "simple"; I'd rather leave "propositional" os it is, since this is the term that Anderson uses, and keeps coming back in the article.
Regarding the interpretation of the four truths: it's worthwhile to reflect on the multiple meanings of the terms. Especially samudaya, and dukkha-samudaya. Samudaya may mean "cause, origin," but also "coming up together with," or "joined to," or "existing together" (see also Pratītyasamutpāda): together with dukkha there is the craving towards "things" that are dukkha, incapable of giving us satisfaction. And that's really unworthy, says he: longing for things which won't last. That's for fools, not for noble persons. let go of it! Unfortunately, the terms being used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta apparently uses the term dukkha-samudaya, and is almost commonly translated as "the origin of suffering": craving causes suffering. Right; so when you've got cancer, this is caused by craving. Sounds like Ronda Byrne's The Secret, doesn't it? So, it's worthwhile to ponder on this. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Why has this section been removed?
However, Nanavina Thera explains this recursion as an interplay of avijja, which he defines as ignorance of the four noble truths, and sammadiththi, which he defines as knowledge of the four noble truths [note 1].
References
Trutheyeness ( talk) 21:03, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding this addition,
Vetter bases his assertion that the liberation being sought was the calm that arises from Dhayana on Bareau's work, that states that the account of the Buddha learning the Dhaynas under Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta has no basis in historical fact [1]. However according to Wynn, the claim that the Buddha was taught by these two teachers is authentic. Wynn, instead, notes that it is easy to see how the the Buddha's liberating knowledge could have been a non conceptual, existential grasp of the fact that ‘delight is the root of suffering’. He further notes that while Schmithausen asserts that the four truths in their present form seem to be an intellectual form of insight that is psychologically implausible, they nonetheless sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way [2]. Thanissaro Bikkhu states that at a certain point in the practice, each of the four truths becomes synonymous with the others, and Dhayana and discernment coalesce to become one and the same thing. [3].
References
...a serious attempt [...] to consider one, long recognized, inconsistency found within the most ancient doctrines of Buddhism and to explain it as a development of the Buddha's thought (p. 196-197,213-214). The gist ofthe problem is that in the doctrine ofthe four noble truths, rebirth and suffering are derived from craving ("thirst", S. trisna, P .tanha). However, according to the
twelvefold chain ofdependent origination, ignorance (S. avidya, P. avijja is the root cause of rebirth and suffering; craving is only a secondary cause.
* Firstly, one is freed from all cankers-and later released from·rebirth and suffering-when one has progressed through four stages ofdhyana-meditation and, at the fourth stage, realized three kinds of knowledge, or at least one kind, namely the knowledge of the four noble truths.
* Secondly, one is freed from all cankers-and later released from rebirth and suffering-when one has progressed through four stages of dhyana-meditation and subsequently gone to four' stages of formless meditation and when one finally achieves the cessation of apperceptions and feelings (P.. saiiiiii-vedayita-nirodha).
* Thirdly, one is freed from all desire-and thereby later from rebirth and suffering when, with discriminating insight (P. panna; one segments oneselfin five constituents and recognizes each as being transient and therefore suffering, i.e. unsatisfactory, and, consequently, as not worthy ofbeing called self or mine.
...which one is the oldest of the three above-mentioned paths to salvation and are these paths originally preached by the Buddha himself?
That being said, this part could be worthwhile:
Wynn, instead, notes that it is easy to see how the the Buddha's liberating knowledge could have been a non conceptual, existential grasp of the fact that ‘delight is the root of suffering’. He further notes that while Schmithausen asserts that the four truths in their present form seem to be an intellectual form of insight that is psychologically implausible, they nonetheless sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way [1].
References
Yet... The insight that ‘delight is the root of suffering’ is not the same as postulating that the Buddha's awakening happened when gained insight into the four noble truths. Wynne does seem to implicate this point, when he states that the four noble truths 'sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way'. Unfortunately, I can't verify his statement; "pg 3 107" is meaningless. You mean p.102-107? Note, by the way, that the section "An early Buddhist controversy: meditation or intellectualism?" starts with
La Vallée Poussin claimed that two different versions of the path are outlined in Indian Buddhist texts: one in which liberation was considered to be achieved by intellectual means, and the other in which liberation was achieved by concentration alone, the gradual suppression of all mental activity.
So, the way you added this info is incoherent, out of context, and not accpetable. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:23, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Ah, this is what Wynne writes:
It is easy to see why some early Buddhists conceived liberating insight to be a correct knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, for this list sums up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way.
That's not the same as how you referred to Wynne (p.107). Worse, Wynne actually agrees with Schmithausen that the notion of what constituted the Buddha's liberating insight changed over time in the Budhist tradition:
...the scheme of jhana's became a support for different versions of intellectual insight; meditation became the means for an increasingly elaborate set of mental gymnastics. And in the end some Buddhists dispensed with meditation altogether.
Not good, my friend; you've misunderstoof]d, and misrepresented, these sources. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
And Wynne further writes:
Elsewhere, according to the MnjlapariyƗya Sutta the content of a Tathagata’s liberating knowledge is the understanding ‘Delight is the root of suffering’ (nandi dukkhassa mulanti). It is easy to imagine that in the very beginning, liberating insight was imagined to be a nonconceptual, existential grasp of this fact.
Note the difference between "see" and imagine"? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Despite this, the earliest portions of Milinda Panha, a conversation with the Greek king Menandar and Buddhist sage Nàgasena dated to the 1st century BC, mentions that wisdom is the result of insight into the four noble truths [1]. In addition, Thanissaro Bikkhu notes that the very name of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (lit. Setting the Wheel of the Dhamma in Motion) which is not part of the Vinaya, is a reference to its arrangement of the four noble truths and three levels of knowledge appropriate to each, as such an arrangement in Indian legal and philosophical traditions is called a 'wheel' [2].
References
is
WP:OR. "Despite" reflects a conclusion or statement; not the conclusion or statement of the (primary) source, but of the editor. And a faulty one; more accurate would be: "Indeed, the earliest [etc.]", given the dating of the Milipanda at the first century BCE; it reflects the development that took place during the precding centuries.
Thanissaro's statement is unclear. The proper reference here is
...the wheel used as a symbol of the Dhamma has twelve spokes, uniting at the hub, symbolizing the twelve permutations that merge into a singularity — knowledge and vision of things as they have come to be — at the still point of non-fashioning in the midst of the cycle of kamma.
The same is stated in the previous paragraph, where he states that "jhāna and discernment become one and the same thing." Yeah, well, standard Theravada orthodoxy, as refelected in the lead:
The four truths became of central importance in the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, [1] [2] which holds to the idea that insight into the four truths is liberating in itself. [3]
References
This is exactly what a host of scholars have analyzed, concluding that there is a tension between jhana and insight in the sutras; jhana was first, then came insight. This is also refelcted in the lead:
The function of the four truths, and their importance, developed over time, when prajna, or "liberating insight," came to be regarded as liberating in itself, [1] [2] instead of or in addition to the practice of dhyana, meditation. [1] This "liberating insight" gained a prominent place in the sutras, and the four truths came to represent this liberating insight, as part of the enlightenment story of the Buddha. [3] [4]
References
I think the lead, and the article, are quite clear on this. Please remember: this is an encyclopedia, reflecting scholarly sources, not a manual of faith. And definitely not a venture for your own research and conclusions. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Wynn observes that the Pali Cannon arrived in Sri Lanka in the 3rd century BC, but that there is no trace of the Sinhalese dialect within it. He offers that if the language of the Cannon was not changed subsequent to its arrival, it is reasonable to assume its content has not changed either. [1]
References
Read the introduction of Anderson; she is not merely referring to Buddhaghosa, but to the oldest sutras, in which the four truths do not occupy the central place in the Theravada tradition. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article asserts that the noble truths are a later development in Buddhism and uses a few arguments to do so. Below, I outline how these arguments are flawed:
1) The argument that Vetter etc. makes that the Buddha could not possibly have gained an insight into the noble truths at the stage he did, because he would have already had to know and follow the eight fold path in order to reach said stage (as presented in the following sentence of this article "Oddly, the four truths refer here to the eightfold path as the means to gain liberation, while the attainment of insight into the four truths is portrayed as liberating in itself.") This argument is based on a seemingly irrefutable logic. I show [ | here]that this logic does not hold. However, note that I am not arguing that my line of logic be incorporated as WP:OR. Rather, I wish to show that sources which use such a line of logic should not be given elevated precedence, as it is nowhere near incontrovertible. Note that the interdependence of the eight fold path that I pointed out in this conversation was also observed by Anderson [1]
2) Inconsistencies in the presentations of the Buddha's enlightenment, and the Buddhist path to liberation, pointed out by Bronkhorst -
This is directly addressed in Anderson's 'The four noble truths in the Therevada Buddhist Cannon'. Anderson's line of logic is as follows:
2a) There is no reason to doubt that the Pali cannon was written down in the first century BCE [2]
2b) The four noble truths were widely recognised as a central teaching of the Buddha by the first millenium. [3]
2c) The original form of the four noble truths was a basic set in short form. [4]
2d) Schmithausen and Bronkhorst do not conclude that the four noble truths were a later addition into the cannon. Rather, that they were not as central in early Buddhism's history (a very different assertion to saying that it was later added due to the influence of other Indian thought). [5]
2e) Having established that the four noble truths as they currently appear in the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta may not have been in its earliest strata, Anderson articulates that the four noble truths are significant "for more reasons than their appearance in the... sutta". In addition, he states that the rest of his book is dedicated to providing this point. [6]
2f) Anderson makes an argument to the effect that the noble eight fold path is not out of place within the context of 'right view', despite being seemingly anomalous elsewhere. [7]
2g) In the introduction, Anderson states that one of the reasons that it is believed by Scholars that the noble truths are a later addition to the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, is that almost all versions found are identical and the homogeneity of different sutta versions point to a deliberate effort to align them by early Buddhists. Later on, Anderson shows that the four noble truths are scattered throughout the cannon in varying formats, indicating that they are an integral part of the cannon [8]
2h) One such example of the above is the Bhayabherava-sutta, of which the four noble truths are an integral part. [9]
2i) Anderson reiterates that although the extended forms of the four noble truths seem to be later additions, the four noble truths themselves are integral to the cannon (some arguments around whether the noble truths are an addition to the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta center around the idea that the extended forms of the noble truths are grammatically incorrect and therefore later additions - yet it seems Anderson is inclined to believe that the short form of this was originally part of the sutta - see 2c). He provides further supporting evidence in the form of the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, Bhayabherava-sutta and Ariyapariyesana-sutta, each of which overlaps with the others in at least one aspect with regard to the Buddha's enlightenment narrative. He shows the interlocking nature of the narratives as non self contradictory, and as different angles of the Buddha's enlightenment experience. [10]
2j) Despite Bronkhorst etc. asserting that the four noble truths may not have been central to the pali cannon (see 2d), Anderson has a different view. In Anderson's view, the notion of a 'path' is central to the cannon, and the noble truths have a large part to play in this. [11]
3) On liberating insight. Arguments by Bronkhorst with respect to the noble truths were not originally synonymous with liberating insight seem to only be accepted by Anderson the basis of the illogic cited in (1) above
[12]. However, I have shown in (1) how that line of reasoning does not hold and is not, in fact, in line with the teachings of the cannon. Given this, and other statements made by Anderson above, it seems that he had to settle for proving that just that the noble truths were integral to the cannon - rather than proving the the four truths were synonymous with liberating insight. So what are we to do in this situation? Most other scholars such as Piadassi Thera do not question the authenticity of the noble truths. In addition, when all literary scholarly work on Buddhism is taken in aggregate (including the commentaries), almost all accept the four noble truths as being synonymous with liberating insight. Given this, it seems, that Bronkhorst and Vetter's view are a minor view, as defined in
WP:RS and should not be given undue weight, or should simply omitted - if only because their logic is flawed and the opinion of other scholars in the history of Buddhism is contrary to theirs.
As you can see from the points above, the logical arguments of Vetter etc. do not hold, and such cannot be given precedence with respect to other scholarly work. In addition, Anderson's work is more complex and varied than the current article would suggest. As such, I believe that these pages are in need of correction. @ Joshua Jonathan: Trutheyeness ( talk) 11:33, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
References
This Wikipedia article asserts that the noble truths are a later development in Buddhism and uses a few arguments to do so.
The function of the four truths, and their importance, developed over time, when prajna, or "liberating insight," came to be regarded as liberating in itself, [1] [2] instead of or in addition to the practice of dhyana, meditation. [1] This "liberating insight" gained a prominent place in the sutras, and the four truths came to represent this liberating insight, as part of the enlightenment story of the Buddha. [3] [4]
According to Bronkhorst, the four truths may already have been formulated in earliest Buddhism, but did not have the central place they acquired in later buddhism. [5] According to Anderson, only by the time of the commentaries, in the fifth century CE, did the four truths come to be identified in the Theravada tradition as the central teaching of the Buddha. [6]
According to the Japanese scholar Ui, the four truths are not the earliest representation of the Buddha's enlightenment. Instead, they are a rather late theory on the content of the Buddha's enlightenment. [7] According to Vetter and Bronkhorst, the earliest Buddhist path consisted of a set of practices which culminate in the practice of dhyana, leading to a calm of mind which according to Vetter is the liberation which is being sought. [8] [4] Later on, "liberating insight" came to be regarded as equally liberating. [3] [4] This "liberating insight" came to be exemplified by prajna, or the insight in the "four truths," [3] [4] but also by other elements of the Buddhist teachings. [8] [9] According to Vetter and Bronkhorst, this growing importance of "liberating insight" was a response to other religious groups in India, which held that a liberating insight was indispensable for moksha, liberation from rebirth. [10] [11]
References
...the Buddha could not possibly have gained an insight into the noble truths at the stage he did, because he would have already had to know and follow the eight fold path in order to reach said stage
Oddly, the four truths refer here to the eightfold path as the means to gain liberation, while the attainment of insight into the four truths is portrayed as liberating in itself.
In contrast, here this insight serves as the starting point to path-entry for his audience. [1] [2]
References
Further, Bronkhorst argues that it's not logical to present the eightfold path as the means to liberation, while similarly presenting insight into this path as the means to liberation. Compare it to baking cookies: you've got a recipe; understanding how the recipe works, does not instantly give you a plate of cookies. You still have to bake them.
References
the burden of proof is still on Bronkhorst and similar scholars to prove that insight into four noble truths cannot be synonymous with awakening (this is because the suttas, commentaries and scholarly works spanning 2 millennia all agree that they are synonymous with each other)
The ideas on what exactly constituted this "liberating insight" was not fixed but developed over time. [1] [2] According to Bronkhorst, in earliest Buddhism the four truths did not serve as a description of "liberating insight". [3] Initially the term prajna served to denote this "liberating insight." Later on, prajna was replaced in the suttas by the "four truths." [4] [5] [...] The four truths were superseded by pratityasamutpada, and still later, in the Hinayana schools, by the doctrine of the non-existence of a substantial self or person. [6] Schmithausen states that still other descriptions of this "liberating insight" exist in the Buddhist canon: "that the five Skandhas are impermanent, disagreeable, and neither the Self nor belonging to oneself"; [note 2] "the contemplation of the arising and disappearance (udayabbaya) of the five Skandhas"; [note 3] "the realisation of the Skandhas as empty (rittaka), vain (tucchaka) and without any pith or substance (asaraka). [note 4] [7]
References
commentaries and scholarly works spanning 2 millennia all agree that they [the four truths and awakening] are synonymous with each other)
I believe that the reason for that Bronkhorst etc. did not consider alternative explanations, such as the above, is that they were not sufficiently skilled practitioners and did not have access to such practitioners.
many scholars of Buddhism [are]...'outsiders' with a rigorous academic training, who are able to take into account a lot of "alternative explanations" which are untenable for religious practitioners who operate 'within a religious system, and cannot afford to deviate from that system.
References
Trutheyeness: I will let JJ continue his discussions with you. About your last para on Bronkhorst (pp 99-102 etc), please note that I struggled with the same issue long ago when I was reviewing / verifying / assisting JJ in matters related this article (see the talk page archives). There are several versions of Bronkhorst publication, where the page numbers vary significantly. It is chapter 8 and in part chapter 7, regardless of the version. There you find the context and relevant discussion on 4NT (for example, I see one patch of Bronkhorst discussions about 4NT on pp. 80-85 of the hard copy in my library). Those chapters do rely on the context set by the earlier chapters. Before signing off, I note my agreement with JJ in general above and about what we can include in this article per the wikipedia content guidelines, and my disagreement with you that "the opinions of even scholars need to be cross-examined before including their conclusions in articles" because that is a slippery slope, leads to cherrypicking and edit wars, more importantly it violates our NPOV, OR etc guidelines. Wikipedia can at best follow and "not lead" the scholarship curve, inform the diversity of views in peer-reviewed sources, both majority and significant minority, but that does not mean readers should not reflect, question the sides, decide for themselves, and continue the journey of knowledge and compassion. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:14, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
See note 21 for sources. That the primacy of insight is a later development is a given fact, for scholars. A really interesting point is: did the Buddha believe in rebirth, or did he teach release from dukkha here and now? The four truths seem to center on ending rebirth; that too may be a sign that their primacy is a later development. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding Nanavira Thera: did he reject the concept of rebirth? His Wiki-page is not clear on this. NB: avijja does not only refer to the four truths; that's typical Theravada scholasticism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Thus I think we can discount the notion that the earliest conception of liberating insight was the insight into the Four Noble Truths. The content of liberating insight in the earliest teaching is unclear.
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/ should point to
http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer. This might be needed else where also hence it might be good to get a bot to do the URL change. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sirinath (
talk •
contribs)
15:03, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
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it
I hope that this comment will be of interest and value to other editors, whether you agree with what I say here or not. I will only say what I see as wrong with this article, and not present a way forward to solve it, nor will I attempt an RfC at this stage. I think that was one of the things I got wrong before in the long collapsed discussions above. The starting point is to decide if they are issues first.
The ideas in the article are presented in some detail and to explain what I see as wrong with them requires a similarly detailed reply. These points are not easy to follow if split over a thread consisting of many comments, and I see that as one of the other main things that I got wrong in the previous discussions. So, to avoid breaking up and confusing this exposition, please add any comments in the #4. Discussion section below. Your co-operation in this is much appreciated. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The Four Noble Truths of the old lede have been replaced by four statements which describe a non Buddhist aim to end rebirth back into the "mundane world" of Samsara.
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 12:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
In detail:
Details
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The
previous lede stated the truths correctly as the truths of suffering (or more generally unsatisfactoriness), origin, cessation and path.
[1]. This is how most books, articles and online
WP:RS sources introduce them, followed by a detailed exposition of each truth in turn
[2]
Cite error: A One of the most distinctive features of Buddhism is that Buddha taught that cessation is something you can realize in this very lifetime. This can be challenging for readers who come to it with the background of another religion. Indeed, though we can all directly realize what suffering and dissatisfaction is from our own experience, according to the Pali Canon, only one of Buddha's first disciples, venerable Kondañña, directly realized the truth of what he was saying about cessation right away when he first taught them [9]. Several readers posted to the talk page complaining that they didn't understand the four truths, not surprisingly, and that is why the lede got rewritten. Unfortunately, this rewrite turned them into statements describing a way of escape from "this mundane world" at death. This may indeed make them more familiar to you, and so easier to understand, if you are used to other religions. However, that doesn't make them more correct. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Professor Walpola Rahula's book "What the Buddha Taught" is widely regarded as one of the best expositions of the central teachings in the Pali canon by both Eastern and Western scholars alike. By way of example, Richard Gombrich in the preface to his new book "What the Buddha Thought" says "The title of this book is a gesture of homage to the late Ven. Dr Walpola Rahula, who taught me much of what I understand of early Buddhism" [2]. It has 67 citations in google scholar in the last year alone [3]. He was a Pali expert thoroughly familiar with the canon of the Therevadhan sutras. He put it like this in his exposition of the Third Noble Truth [4]:
The four truths are understood in this way in all the main sutra traditions, Zen [5], Tibetan [6], Therevadhan [7], etc. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Far from the Buddha having to die to reach enlightenment, the Pali Canon also states in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that Buddha didn't have to enter paranirvana either when he did. Ananda could have asked him to remain to the end of this world period, but he didn't get the hint. [8]
Although the historical Buddha entered paranirvana when he died, in the Tibetan traditions at least they also have the idea that other Buddhas can "emanate" after they die and take birth as young babies again over and over [9] (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) It's also worth noting that the wheel turning sutra [10] does not include the word "rebirth" in any form. Instead the teachings are based around dukkha. This is makes them far more accessible, as all that is required of the practitioner is to recognize the truth of suffering or unsatisfactoriness, which is a truth easy of access to anyone. After that, all that is needed to follow the path is an open mind, and a dedication to seeing the truth and to recognize clearly what you know and what you don't know. That open mind also applies to what happens when you die. If the truths were based around an aim to end rebirth, then you would need to affirm a belief first, such as "I believe in rebirth", before you could start on the path. This would close your mind to other possibilities. It would be a way of declaring that you are have decided in advance that any other ideas about what happens when you die are wrong. But Buddhists don't have any such creed, even in the Tibetan traditions, which have the strongest emphasis of any on the process of rebirth, including recognition of reborn Tulkus. Instead, you commit to an open mind when you become a Buddhist. See for instance Trungpa Rinpoche's exposition of requirements for taking refuge [11], in the ceremony during which one affirms that one has chosen to follow the Buddhist path. I know that there is a movement amongst some Westerners to try to identify what they take to be the original authentic teachings and to reinterpret the sutras. In the previous discussion then the other editors provided cites which they claimed presented the view that when Buddha became enlightened, all that happened is that he got an intimation that after death he would never be reborn again. But they were cites to densely argued complex technical discussions in the academic literature, and I was not convinced that these discussions were interpreted correctly. Whether or not any WP:RS present such views, this is certainly not how the four truths are presented by most Buddhist scholars or teachers, nor is it how Buddhist practitioners understand them, and nor is it how they are presented in the original wheel turning sutra in the Pali canon. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) None of the editors in the previous discussion found a Buddhist sutra cite for this word (mentioned in note 1 in the current version). It is used in Hindu and pre Buddhist texts but these texts are not recognized as sutras by Buddhists. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Instead they gave cites to the Pali phrase agatigati, where agati means coming and gati means going. This is translated as
Most Buddhist readers will not be familiar with the term "redeath". If I can take myself as an example reader, I have listened to teachers from many traditions including Therevadhan, Korean Zen and three branches of Tibetan Buddhism (Nyingmapa, Gelugpa and Kagyupa), over a period of 30 years. I have never heard any of them use it. Nor have I ever heard any fellow Buddhists use the word. The word "rebirth" is familiar to most but not the word "redeath". Another Buddhist who responded to the RfC was also not familiar with the term. Perhaps it is only familiar to those who have read many Western scholarly papers on the topic. If one needs a translation of agatigati, what is wrong with "rebirth and death" which avoids need for this technical term at all? The article currently has ten uses of the word "redeath". All of those could be replaced by "death" with no loss of meaning. As evidence that "redeath" is a rare word in English, and therefore WP:TECHNICAL, it's not found in these online dictionaries: (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) In the Pali Canon, in the Kalama sutta, Buddha made a clean break with the past, saying that scriptures and other sources such as the Vedas must not be followed just because they are scriptures but must be tested by "the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise." (quoting the translator's note). This makes it different from the situation of Christianity or Islam which both treat the Old Testament as sacred. For Buddhists, the Vedas are not sacred in this sense. So, should the article use the the word Punarmrtyu in note 1? That note gives it as an internal link to Saṃsāra#Punarmrityu:_redeath which is pre-Buddhist. Wikipedia describes it as
In more detail it is described here "Buddhist rituals of Death and Rebirth":
This is a historical section called "Some historical roots : time of death". It is not describing Buddhist ideas at this point. The four statements in the new lede seem to be based on this idea. Buddhists don't have this idea of heaven as a state between death and rebirth. The sutras do describe states of bliss that one can enter, in this life or future lives, or rather many such, each more refined than the last. Some are described with "luminous bodies" [15], and some as just pure mind. But all this is a part of the cycle of rebirth. These blissful realms, are treated as another rebirth of the many possible in the cycle of Samsara. They are not thought of as separate from Samsara. The new lede describes a way of escaping Samsara through somehow "stopping karma" so that you no longer have to take rebirth back into this "mundane world". This would seem to have close parallels with this non Buddhist idea of Punarmrtyu or stopping "redeath from heaven":
These four statements do not occur in this form in any Buddhist source. Though that section is heavily cited to the Buddhist literature, it is a WP:SYNTHESIS made up of ideas from many Buddhist sources combined together to make a whole that is no longer Buddhist. Compare the four truths as they were stated in the previous lede:
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Therevadhans don't have the idea of an intermediate state between death and the next rebirth at all. Instead, they say that the next thought-moment after your death is the first thought-moment of your new rebirth. Here is professor Walpola Rahula describing this Therevadhan view on death and rebirth in "THE SECOND NOBLE TRUTH: SAMUDAYA: THE ARISING OF DUKKHA".
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Some Buddhists do think in terms of an intermediate state between death and the next rebirth, for instance in the Tibetan teachings. However, it is not described as a heavenly state. Rather, it is described for most beings as like being overwhelmed by exceedingly bright lights and loud noises like the loudest thunder, which most beings run away from, terrified, at that point and so take rebirth again. In the Tibetan Book of the Dead (translation by Chogyam Trungpa with Francesca Fremantle)
This could hardly be further from the pre-Buddhist Vedic idea of alternating between this life and a heavenly state with the aim of avoiding redeath in order to remain in the heavenly state. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Tibetans do have the idea of a Bardo state between death and rebirth, but the aim is not at all to remain within Bardo which is seen as terrifying and bewildering for most beings, and not a heavenly state at all. Rather the idea in the Tibetan Book of the Dead is to find a way to awaken from the Bardo, to awaken to those bright lights and loud sounds, or failing that, to find your way to a fortunate rebirth where you may be able to awaken as Buddha did during that lifetime. Therevadhans don't have the idea of an intermediate state between death and rebirth. For them your last moment of death is followed immediately by the first moment of the process of rebirth in another lifetime. So, the idea behind Punamrtyu of avoiding "redeath" from an intermediate state between death and rebirth can't even be stated in a Therevadhan context. The note doesn't make it clear that this is a non Buddhist idea. I think this is another reason to avoid the use of the technical word "redeath" in the article in translations of Agatigati. Scholars can be expected to understand "rebirth and redeath" in a Buddhist context as meaning repeated ordinary deaths, with each "redeath" leading to the start of the next rebirth in the next moment of thought (in the Pali canon at least). However, a non scholar reader could easily confuse this with the non Buddhist idea of death leading to heaven and "redeath" leading from heaven back to Samsara. This confusion seems especially likely to happen since the footnote links to a passage in wikipedia describing "redeath" in the non Buddhist sense. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) This article presents the view according to which the Four Noble Truths are a later development and were not taught by the historical Buddha. This is a view at one end of a continuum. At the other end of the continuum is the view of Prayudh Payutto and several other scholars according to which the teachings of the Pali canon for the most part consist of the words recorded at the time of the Great Council after Buddha died. The only exceptions are some obviously later texts. This is not a view based on faith but rather on scholarship. In the Pali Canon it's said that after the death of Vardhamana, or as Buddhists refer to him, Nirgrantha, leader of the Jains, Buddha's followers noticed that his followers fell into discussion and dispute about what his teachings were. They didn't want that to happen to Buddha's teachings. At the time Northern India didn't have writing. However, as scholars generally agree, the Brahmins were able to preserve the Vedas word for word through memorization, and many of Buddha's disciples were Brahmins trained to do this. So, the sutras say, they committed his teachings to memory while he was still alive. After he died, then they held a great council during which they agreed on the material in the Pali Canon and recited each sutra in unison. With this internal evidence from within the sutras themselves, it is at least possible that what we have preserved are the teachings as memorized in the first great council, pretty much word for word. After all, it is generally agreed that the Brahmins achieved that with the Vedas. In support of this view they present these main reasons:
For the details of this view, see
Many scholars hold intermediate views. For example: Peter Harvey, "Introduction to Buddhism: teachings, history and practices", says
Richard Gombrich says in an interview [16]
By presenting only one view, and such an extreme view in the debate, the current article is very WP:POV. The wikipedia article on the Pali Canon under: Attribution according to scholars presents the full range of views on this matter, in a WP:NPOV way. Surely the approach used in the Pali Canon article is more in accord with wikipedia guidelines. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC) Once again, if anyone reading this objects to this post, please just let me know. I have no wish to post here if my posts are unwelcome, thanks. It's six days since my last post so hopefully this is not seen as excessive. And probably this is all that I have to say at this stage but I felt I should post a bit more after reading Gombrich's book which gave me some more insight into what I think the issue may be here. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC) I've just been reading Gombrich's "What the Buddha Thought" [17] and was surprised to find that he presents an "escape from this mundane world" interpretation. He is a top scholar in the field of Western academic Buddhism, though he admits that he doesn't have Walpola Rahula's depth of understanding of the vast encyclopedia sized Pali Canon - few Westerners do. Richard Gombrich's main thesis (if I understand it right) is that:
He also presents this thesis in short form on his Oxford home page [18]. The basic message according to him is
As I said above, at least for someone approaching this as a Buddhist in the sutra traditions, what he says seems to be inconsistent in almost all respects with the way that Walpola Rahula and other modern Buddhist scholars and teachers in these traditions present it. He seems to be of the view that these interpretations don't quite make sense as is, but that with his humanist reinterpretation they can be transformed into something that does make sense. Please correct me if I have made any mistakes in this summary of his views. His approach can be especialy hard to understand if you are used to the way the four truths are traditionally understood and explained in the main sutra traditions, perhaps just as hard to understand as the traditional approach clearly is for those who approach this in the other direction.. (If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC) |
In summary:
So first, is this an accurate summary of the present day situation, of what is said in the WP:RS that I summarized?
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
What should we do if those conclusions about what is said in the WP:RS on this subject are correct? I think we can learn a lot by looking at the articles on Christianity. Most Buddhists don't speak English (over half are Chinese, and the next most common by population are the Thai and Japanese [19]), and there are only 535 million Buddhists world wide compared with 2.2. billion Christians. Also, the majority of English speaking editors of Wikipedia are much more familiar with Christianity than Buddhism. The wikipedia articles on theology are of a high standard.
So, let's take a similarly central article in Christianity: Resurrection of Jesus. In the section on Historicity and origin you learn that there is a wide range of scholarly views about whether this event happened and what the event was. However, the lede relies on the biblical account, and there is no suggestion that the lede be rewritten to mention these views.
In a similar way, the old lede presented the four truths as they are presented in the canon. As with the lede for Resurrection of Jesus, this is not taking a WP:POV on the scholarly debate about what Buddha originally taught, it just gives the teachings as they are presented in the sutras, just as the lede for Resurrection of Jesus gives the teachings as presented in the Bible. Of course Richard Gombrich's views are notable, and interesting, and need to be mentioned. It's a matter of where and how this is done.
Whatever the decision is, as a modern Buddhist reader myself, I feel that it is especially important that the lede does not give the false view that most modern Buddhists aim to escape from this "mundane world" and to prevent rebirth when they die. That is so different from the views and practice of most Buddhist practitioners including many of the most respected Buddhist scholars and teachers like Walpola Rahula as described in many WP:RS. It is as if the lede of Resurrection of Jesus falsely promulgated the idea that most Christians don't believe in the resurrection.
The way it is done at present in the lede for Four Noble Truths is a bit like someone rewriting the lede of Resurrection of Jesus to attempt a coherent "best account" of what "really happened" according to the views of theologians that the wikipedia author of the lede thinks "got it right". That surely can't be the right way to do it, and the way that it is handled in theological articles on wikipedia may show the way to an alternative approach to this issue.
(If you wish to comment, please use the section #4. Discussion below). Robert Walker ( talk) 11:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Please discuss here to avoid breaking up and confusing the exposition above. Robert Walker ( talk) 02:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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I thought I'd just briefly state the main points again, perhaps I went into too much detail. Check the collapsed sections above for the sources, quotes and details for what I say below and if you have any questions do say.
I think it can't be denied that Walpola Rahula said that Buddha reached cessation in the sense of the four truths, already in his own lifetime. Also it can't be denied that Walpola Rahula is highly respected by Western and Eastern academics alike as an expert on Therevadha Buddhism and the Pali Canon. And Richard Gombrich also agreed that this is the view of modern Buddhists. I gave cites and quotes that support this without question, in the collapsed section above.
Then, it's true that Richard Gombrich says that in his view this is the result of later authors rewriting some of the Pali Canon and is inauthentic, not the view of the Buddha himself. He doesn't deny that it is the view of modern sutra tradition Buddhists. He just finds it puzzling and thinks that Buddha's original teachings must have been misunderstood and rewritten.
On rebirth and redeath, then it's true that the sutras use a phrase "coming and going" that can be translated this way. But it is just ordinary death and rebirth within samsara. No evidence at all has been given that Buddhists have the idea of redeath from a heavenly state from Hinduism. Cites to the Vedas can't establish this as the Vedas are not sacred texts for Buddhists. Also the word is not used in the wheel turning sutras.
On the view of inauthenticity of the Pāli Canon, Anderson's view is at an extreme range of a spectrum. And even she, as a Buddhist herself, agrees that the sutras are the basis for the practices of modern Buddhists, whatever it is that Buddha himself orignally said.
The Pāli Canon article here presents the full range of views. That includes the view of authenticity, held by many scholars, that most of the Pali Canon, apart from some obviously later texts, was memorized by the same process used to memorize the Vedas and records nearly word for word what the monks recited together in the first great council after Buddha died, and that they started to memorize his teachings before he died, as recorded in the Pāli Canon. All are agreed that Mahayana texts are a later composition, and that some Pāli Canon texts are too. But for many internal reasons, also supported by archaeology, many scholars are of the view that much of the Pāli Canon dates back to shortly after the death of the Buddha and records events that happened during his lifetime, the technology of his lifetime, and surely also, the speeches of the Buddha as they were memorized by monks during his lifetime.
So, given that, then the earlier version of this article was much more mainstream. It presented the four truths as they are undestoood by modern Buddhists in the sutra traditions, as Gombrich himself agrees. It is true that it did not present Richard Gombrich's views or Anderson's views and the views of a few other Western Buddhist scholars. But surely the solution is not to rewrite the article so that it only presents the views of Gombrich and Anderson. The previous article did not discuss the authenticity of the sutras. Again surely the solution, if such a section is needed, is to include the entire range of views on this matter rather than just the views of Gombrich and Anderson. I am sure that Gombrich and Anderson themselves, as good scholars, would not want an article on the Four Noble Truths to present only their views.
Robert Walker ( talk) 11:16, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi @ Joshua Jonathan: first glad to hear you have agreed on the need to make some changes so that the article briefly mentions some views of Walpola Rahula on modern Therevadhan Buddhism, in one short sentence in the historical section and in a footnote. But the article is still entirely from the WP:POV of Western academic Buddhism, and even those statements about the views of Walpola Rahula are presented as "incorrect", filtered through the lens of Gombrich.
In your concluding statement in that footnote, you say: (emphasis mine).
"Since truth can only be a property of propositions, which have subjects and predicates, and nirvana is not a proposition, it makes no sense in English to say that nirvana is truth.".
This contrast between "According to Rahula" and "Gombrich notes that" implies editorial approval of Gombrich's statement as a truth. But it is just Gombrich's view that "Nirvana IS TRUTH" makes no sense. After all Keats in his Ode on a Grecian Urn wrote
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," – that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. (lines 49–50)
Is he implying that Keats didn't understand how to use the English language? "Beauty" is not a proposition. So even the small changes you have made, as read by a modern Buddhist, are still highly WP:POV because of the way you give the Western viewpoint the last word and present it as correct.
It's the same all the way through that footnote:
Whenever you approve of an author's views you say that they note whatever their view is.
I hope you can appreciate that it will take a fair number of words to respond to your many points in the post you made a few days ago. My next post will be about secondary sources however as I think that is the most important thing to address first. Should the articles be based on authors like Gombrich and Anderson etc primarily or should they be based on authors like Walpola Rahula and the Dalia Lama mainly? Also, I'll add a POV tag. I'll also do a very short bullet list summary of my later replies which I can add later. Robert Walker ( talk) 14:27, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@Robertinventor: Presenting Rahula's views and other scholars (Gombrich) disagreements with Rahula is important for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, I read part of that draft on reliable sources in Buddhism; I suggest you come with concrete proposals for additions and/or changes, like RegentsPark suggested:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:23, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
The essay is ready now. As it is relevant to many articles in the project, please discuss here: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to the article. The edit summary is:
"POV tag - Bias towards western academics - Gombrich etc - to detriment of recognized and well-regarded Buddhist authors Walpola Rahula, Dalai Lama, etc. No details on view of authenticity of sutras. Rewrite of four truths in lede is WP:SYNTHESIS"
For the issues in detail, please see #Short summary of the issues with this article above.
(preceding line added as a result of the POV tag redirection [21]) Robert Walker ( talk) 21:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
As a reminder, you may remove this template whenever any of the following is true:
(see Template:POV#When_to_remove).
We don't have a consensus to remove it at present, as I think will be clear to almost anyone reading this talk page. Your recent edits have not solved these problems in my view @ Joshua Jonathan:. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning my edit summary of the main issues in the tag - but you just redirected the tag from #Short summary of the issues with this article to this post. I've therefore edited my post above to link back to the short summary of the issues which is what I intended the tag to link to originally. It does make sense to redirect it here, but of course the reader has to get to the list of issues with the article. So this seems one of those situations where you have to edit your comment after it has been repleid to.
I have made plenty of comments today so will leave replies to your further posts above to later. I already have a backlog of many other things to reply to as well from your previous post, below and will do so when I get the time, thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 21:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Just to say - I do have concrete proposals, not just for this article but for several affected articles. I've mentioned them several times on this page - here is the link again: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal Robert Walker ( talk) 23:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@Robertinventor: We have been through this last year. Your explanation for the tag does not make sense, and I will remove it shortly if you do not address, "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given". For example, you write in "Three things wrong with this article" section, a wall of text which includes allegations that are simply wrong because what you claim does not verify. You wrote in "Details" section, as an illustration:
If you read Harvey's explanation of the primary text carefully, he uses the word "rebirth" five times!
Peter Harvey's publications such as An Introduction to Buddhism, published in 2013 by Cambridge University Press clearly link and extensively discuss 4NT with rebirth (pages 32-43, 50-87), citing numerous Suttas. Please explain your alleged claims against Peter Harvey? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I think answering you on this particular point in which you are referring to an old discussion from long ago may not be the most productive way ahead. I do have replies to all that but I have already made those replies long ago, and you replied to them and we would just replay an old discussion here. And it is also a minute detail and doesn't address the main issues mentioned in the tag. Also it is better to talk about such things at a higher level, about the conclusions of Walpola Rahula etc rather than to try to argue the point ourselves from scratch which risks verging into WP:OR. Will make a longer reply later. Robert Walker ( talk) 11:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC) Robert Walker ( talk) 11:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Robert Walker ( talk) 07:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
(I think many of these points are tangential to the main point under discussion)
I will answer the other points you raised above gradually over the next few days in order to avoid any possibility of being taken back to WP:ANI for verboseness, and also to make it easier for anyone watching this page to follow our conversation. I hope you can understand that in the circumstances, which we all know so no need to repeat them.
I will focus my replies on these four main points, because they seem to be important to you.
Your edits and replies above do not address these points. But to explain so, I will need to go into detail on each of those points. I have already replied to them in the collapsed section above. But it seems I need to say the same again in more detail.
Also, the points I gave in the summary above remain, and you haven't yet answered them. Indeed I think there probably is no way to answer them. See #Short summary of the issues with this article. You raised so many points in your very long reply #Reply by JJ that it was hard to know where to start. I chose the list of four above as a starting pint, because they seemed to be key points for you.
I think myself that the issue here is a difference of WP:POV and that many of these problems would be solved if we had separate articles for the WP:SUBPOV of western academics and the very different WP:SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhist. Otherwise we could easily go on endlessly trying to answer each other, rather like Christians and Muslims trying to work out the best way to write an article on the Resurrection of Jesus. Perhaps the reason we get so much fruitless discussion here is because what we are attempting is impossible?
The issues you raised are issues for western academics who are attempting a humanistic reintepretation of the Buddhist teachings, also informed by ideas from Indian Vedic religions (which sutra based Buddhism is not of course). When I answer these issues, I of course talk about how WP:RS in the sutra traditions of Buddhism think about such ideas. They simply don't have these issues. Because they think about the teachings differently. But my answers may well not be satisfactory to you, because they won't answer them in ways that western academics find helpful in this topic area because they won't be answers based on a humanistic and Vedic interpretation of the Buddhist ideas based around ideas of an afterlife, of "getting out of Samsara", and other ideas that are quite foreign to how Buddhists think about it all.
I think it is possible that my Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal has a chance to resolve many of these issues, by just recognizing these as valid distinct WP:SUBPOV, and so making two versions of each article according to the distinct WP:SUBPOVs. If that happens, then perhaps it may simplify many things and I wont need to do all these replies to your points :). Robert Walker ( talk) 21:04, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I will also add a post about quotes. This was your original stated reason for doing a major rewrite of this article. But there was no consensus. We had a discussion during which you said the quotes needed to be removed, @ Dorje108: wanted to retain them but as a compromise suggested doing paraphrases. He asked for time to do this as the quotes were succint statements by experts in the sutra traditions and not easy to summarize because they already used carefully chosen words to express their points. So we had three options here under discussion - to remove the quotes, to paraphrase them, and to keep them. All these options were actively under discussion when you chose to remove them all, and when asked to revert and discuss first, ignored what he said. This is not what editing by consensus means! We didn't even have an RfC on the matter.
Meanwhile we discovered later, a few weeks later, that you had written other articles that consisted almost entirely of quotes, when another editor took you to ARE on a charge of Copyvio. The admins gave you only a mild rebuke, "Joshua Jonathan is advised to use quotation marks or to paraphrase content from external source [23], and you weren't sanctioned by the admins. But the action was rather striking to those of us who had just recently watched you remove all of @ Dorje108:'s quote from this article.
Since you and other editors continue to remove quotes from Buddhism articles here whenever they are added I think that it may be useful to do a similar study of use of quotes in articles on religion, similarly to my essay on reliable secondary sources. I'll look at the guidelines, and I'll also look at actual practice in articles in the topic area of religion here in Wikipedia. These essays take a fair bit of my time, though I think well worth doing. I'll do that maybe a week or two from now. It may help. Thanks! Robert Walker ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
My plan is to post about these issues, one at a time, on separate days, to minimize the risk of being taken back to WP:ANI. It will also help readers here to follow the discussions. To post so much in one go and then to have comments on them would surely be rather overwheliming. I'll probably start on it some time next week. Robert Walker ( talk) 20:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's focus on the positive. I hope to write an essay on use of quotes in articles on religion as applied to Buddhism. Perhaps we can return to this topic when I write that essay. It won't be for a week or two probably. Robert Walker ( talk) 22:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welsh: when we take the mnemonic set, samudaya has a double meaning, referring to '_bound together with_ this fleeting world and its unsatisfactoriness [is] longing for this fleeting world (which is utterly foolish, un-arya)', and to the continuation of samsara by this craving (pratitya-samutpada), right? And nirodha refers to the cessation of craving, but also, similar to the previous second meaning, to the reversal of pratitya-samutpada. With other words, the basic set is confusing: dukkha-samutpada is to easily interpreted as "craving causes suffering," while it also means "craving co es with dukkha." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:06, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
We use her a lot in this article. According to [24] it´s Carol S. Anderson. Carol Anderson doesn´t seem to fit. If she can´t wikilinked, we should at least cite "professor of whatever at wherever" or somesuch. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I've added the following comment: "[This full set,] which is most commonly used in modern expositions,". Together with that comment, I re-inserted part of an old note b by Dorje108, in response to a comment by Robert at Talk:Four Noble Truths#What's wrong - short summary - Four Truths incorrectly stated, Redeath technical, and POV statements on authenticity, subsection "Background - How the Four Noble Truths came to be stated incorrectly in this article":
Robert was at least partly correct here: most books etc. do present the four truths in this way. It is how they are presented in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, which figures prominently at the opening of the article: Four Noble Truths#Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. But saying that this is how the Buddha presented them needs a qualification; and there are Sutras which present them in another way. As Norman and Anderson, and others, make clear, the four truths probably were not part of the oldest versions of this sutra; there are several versions of the four truths, mnemonic and more expanded; and the four truths may refer to various subjects, not only dukkha. Ironically, Dorje108 stated in that note:
Actually, they have all presented a quite similar translation of just one list, what Norman called the "full list," with just one subject, namely dukkha. The idea that this is "the essential list" may be a personal conclusion.
So, it's not a matter of stating "the" truths "correctly," as if thre is only one set and one fixed meaning. It's matter of selection from a range of sets, subjects and meanings; only one set with only one subject is usually being presented; and only one translation c.q. interpretation is usually being given. It shows the consequences of relying one-sidedly at one's own understanding of popular sources, and ignoring the scholarly literature, which can give a much broader background. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:19, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it is the interpretation/meaning where the colors and hues emerge, not the "correct statement". The above was clear in this article version last month, and this further clarification is welcome. Let us keep the article size, and the subject focus in perspective, as JimRenge rightly reminds in various Buddhism space articles. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:30, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: I think that a few lines have to be added about the Viapssana movement; that's probably from where comes this emphasis om happiness. See:
What do you think? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
JJ: Your intent is good, but the article may be better and more stable if we avoid SPS and blogs such as vividness.live, and instead summarize some peer reviewed RS on this. There was a chapter by Fronsdal in a book edited by Charles Prebish about Vipassana for happiness, with complete silence on rebirth/wheel/hungry ghosts/realms of existence etc. I will locate it, check if he mentioned 4NT, and then update the source/etc later today. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 11:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
JJ: Why do we have Fake Buddha Quotes? Wouldn't something from some RS be better as refn notes? I left that in for now, but am wondering, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
As a lay-person, who doesn´t know a lot about buddhism, I find the lead of this article very hard to read and enjoy (I haven´t read beyond the lead, it was sort of discouraging). It seems to be written for an audience of people with in-depth knowledge, but that is not the usual WP-way.
Take the first section:
The Four Noble Truths (Sanskrit: catvāri āryasatyāni; Pali: cattāri ariyasaccāni) are "the truths of the Noble Ones,"[1] the truths or realities which are understood by the "worthy ones"[web 1] who have attained Nirvana.[2][web 1] The truths are dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, and the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.
Apart from "Nirvana", these are all unfamiliar concepts to me, and reading it gives me very little. It doesn´t mention buddhism, or what dukkha is, that comes later, the "painful incapableness of satisfying". So this lead seems to state that the four truths (buddhistic concept) are: painful incapableness of satisfying exists, where it comes from, that it can cease, and how to make it cease.
I could go into more detail, but, editors who know the subject, please read the lead from the POV of a reader who´ve heard of buddhism, but not the sutras (or think it´s spelled "suras"), the Pali canon, the entire dhamma matrix, prajna, dhyana, Theravada tradition, Mahayana tradition, or the Bodhisattva-path. I guess what I´m asking is much less "insider-language" in the lead, leave this (with explananations) more for the body of the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 05:52, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Gråbergs Gråa Sång: I've changed "formulaic" into "simple"; I'd rather leave "propositional" os it is, since this is the term that Anderson uses, and keeps coming back in the article.
Regarding the interpretation of the four truths: it's worthwhile to reflect on the multiple meanings of the terms. Especially samudaya, and dukkha-samudaya. Samudaya may mean "cause, origin," but also "coming up together with," or "joined to," or "existing together" (see also Pratītyasamutpāda): together with dukkha there is the craving towards "things" that are dukkha, incapable of giving us satisfaction. And that's really unworthy, says he: longing for things which won't last. That's for fools, not for noble persons. let go of it! Unfortunately, the terms being used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta apparently uses the term dukkha-samudaya, and is almost commonly translated as "the origin of suffering": craving causes suffering. Right; so when you've got cancer, this is caused by craving. Sounds like Ronda Byrne's The Secret, doesn't it? So, it's worthwhile to ponder on this. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Why has this section been removed?
However, Nanavina Thera explains this recursion as an interplay of avijja, which he defines as ignorance of the four noble truths, and sammadiththi, which he defines as knowledge of the four noble truths [note 1].
References
Trutheyeness ( talk) 21:03, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding this addition,
Vetter bases his assertion that the liberation being sought was the calm that arises from Dhayana on Bareau's work, that states that the account of the Buddha learning the Dhaynas under Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta has no basis in historical fact [1]. However according to Wynn, the claim that the Buddha was taught by these two teachers is authentic. Wynn, instead, notes that it is easy to see how the the Buddha's liberating knowledge could have been a non conceptual, existential grasp of the fact that ‘delight is the root of suffering’. He further notes that while Schmithausen asserts that the four truths in their present form seem to be an intellectual form of insight that is psychologically implausible, they nonetheless sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way [2]. Thanissaro Bikkhu states that at a certain point in the practice, each of the four truths becomes synonymous with the others, and Dhayana and discernment coalesce to become one and the same thing. [3].
References
...a serious attempt [...] to consider one, long recognized, inconsistency found within the most ancient doctrines of Buddhism and to explain it as a development of the Buddha's thought (p. 196-197,213-214). The gist ofthe problem is that in the doctrine ofthe four noble truths, rebirth and suffering are derived from craving ("thirst", S. trisna, P .tanha). However, according to the
twelvefold chain ofdependent origination, ignorance (S. avidya, P. avijja is the root cause of rebirth and suffering; craving is only a secondary cause.
* Firstly, one is freed from all cankers-and later released from·rebirth and suffering-when one has progressed through four stages ofdhyana-meditation and, at the fourth stage, realized three kinds of knowledge, or at least one kind, namely the knowledge of the four noble truths.
* Secondly, one is freed from all cankers-and later released from rebirth and suffering-when one has progressed through four stages of dhyana-meditation and subsequently gone to four' stages of formless meditation and when one finally achieves the cessation of apperceptions and feelings (P.. saiiiiii-vedayita-nirodha).
* Thirdly, one is freed from all desire-and thereby later from rebirth and suffering when, with discriminating insight (P. panna; one segments oneselfin five constituents and recognizes each as being transient and therefore suffering, i.e. unsatisfactory, and, consequently, as not worthy ofbeing called self or mine.
...which one is the oldest of the three above-mentioned paths to salvation and are these paths originally preached by the Buddha himself?
That being said, this part could be worthwhile:
Wynn, instead, notes that it is easy to see how the the Buddha's liberating knowledge could have been a non conceptual, existential grasp of the fact that ‘delight is the root of suffering’. He further notes that while Schmithausen asserts that the four truths in their present form seem to be an intellectual form of insight that is psychologically implausible, they nonetheless sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way [1].
References
Yet... The insight that ‘delight is the root of suffering’ is not the same as postulating that the Buddha's awakening happened when gained insight into the four noble truths. Wynne does seem to implicate this point, when he states that the four noble truths 'sum up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way'. Unfortunately, I can't verify his statement; "pg 3 107" is meaningless. You mean p.102-107? Note, by the way, that the section "An early Buddhist controversy: meditation or intellectualism?" starts with
La Vallée Poussin claimed that two different versions of the path are outlined in Indian Buddhist texts: one in which liberation was considered to be achieved by intellectual means, and the other in which liberation was achieved by concentration alone, the gradual suppression of all mental activity.
So, the way you added this info is incoherent, out of context, and not accpetable. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:23, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Ah, this is what Wynne writes:
It is easy to see why some early Buddhists conceived liberating insight to be a correct knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, for this list sums up Buddhism in a most coherent and simple way.
That's not the same as how you referred to Wynne (p.107). Worse, Wynne actually agrees with Schmithausen that the notion of what constituted the Buddha's liberating insight changed over time in the Budhist tradition:
...the scheme of jhana's became a support for different versions of intellectual insight; meditation became the means for an increasingly elaborate set of mental gymnastics. And in the end some Buddhists dispensed with meditation altogether.
Not good, my friend; you've misunderstoof]d, and misrepresented, these sources. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
And Wynne further writes:
Elsewhere, according to the MnjlapariyƗya Sutta the content of a Tathagata’s liberating knowledge is the understanding ‘Delight is the root of suffering’ (nandi dukkhassa mulanti). It is easy to imagine that in the very beginning, liberating insight was imagined to be a nonconceptual, existential grasp of this fact.
Note the difference between "see" and imagine"? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Despite this, the earliest portions of Milinda Panha, a conversation with the Greek king Menandar and Buddhist sage Nàgasena dated to the 1st century BC, mentions that wisdom is the result of insight into the four noble truths [1]. In addition, Thanissaro Bikkhu notes that the very name of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (lit. Setting the Wheel of the Dhamma in Motion) which is not part of the Vinaya, is a reference to its arrangement of the four noble truths and three levels of knowledge appropriate to each, as such an arrangement in Indian legal and philosophical traditions is called a 'wheel' [2].
References
is
WP:OR. "Despite" reflects a conclusion or statement; not the conclusion or statement of the (primary) source, but of the editor. And a faulty one; more accurate would be: "Indeed, the earliest [etc.]", given the dating of the Milipanda at the first century BCE; it reflects the development that took place during the precding centuries.
Thanissaro's statement is unclear. The proper reference here is
...the wheel used as a symbol of the Dhamma has twelve spokes, uniting at the hub, symbolizing the twelve permutations that merge into a singularity — knowledge and vision of things as they have come to be — at the still point of non-fashioning in the midst of the cycle of kamma.
The same is stated in the previous paragraph, where he states that "jhāna and discernment become one and the same thing." Yeah, well, standard Theravada orthodoxy, as refelected in the lead:
The four truths became of central importance in the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, [1] [2] which holds to the idea that insight into the four truths is liberating in itself. [3]
References
This is exactly what a host of scholars have analyzed, concluding that there is a tension between jhana and insight in the sutras; jhana was first, then came insight. This is also refelcted in the lead:
The function of the four truths, and their importance, developed over time, when prajna, or "liberating insight," came to be regarded as liberating in itself, [1] [2] instead of or in addition to the practice of dhyana, meditation. [1] This "liberating insight" gained a prominent place in the sutras, and the four truths came to represent this liberating insight, as part of the enlightenment story of the Buddha. [3] [4]
References
I think the lead, and the article, are quite clear on this. Please remember: this is an encyclopedia, reflecting scholarly sources, not a manual of faith. And definitely not a venture for your own research and conclusions. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Wynn observes that the Pali Cannon arrived in Sri Lanka in the 3rd century BC, but that there is no trace of the Sinhalese dialect within it. He offers that if the language of the Cannon was not changed subsequent to its arrival, it is reasonable to assume its content has not changed either. [1]
References
Read the introduction of Anderson; she is not merely referring to Buddhaghosa, but to the oldest sutras, in which the four truths do not occupy the central place in the Theravada tradition. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article asserts that the noble truths are a later development in Buddhism and uses a few arguments to do so. Below, I outline how these arguments are flawed:
1) The argument that Vetter etc. makes that the Buddha could not possibly have gained an insight into the noble truths at the stage he did, because he would have already had to know and follow the eight fold path in order to reach said stage (as presented in the following sentence of this article "Oddly, the four truths refer here to the eightfold path as the means to gain liberation, while the attainment of insight into the four truths is portrayed as liberating in itself.") This argument is based on a seemingly irrefutable logic. I show [ | here]that this logic does not hold. However, note that I am not arguing that my line of logic be incorporated as WP:OR. Rather, I wish to show that sources which use such a line of logic should not be given elevated precedence, as it is nowhere near incontrovertible. Note that the interdependence of the eight fold path that I pointed out in this conversation was also observed by Anderson [1]
2) Inconsistencies in the presentations of the Buddha's enlightenment, and the Buddhist path to liberation, pointed out by Bronkhorst -
This is directly addressed in Anderson's 'The four noble truths in the Therevada Buddhist Cannon'. Anderson's line of logic is as follows:
2a) There is no reason to doubt that the Pali cannon was written down in the first century BCE [2]
2b) The four noble truths were widely recognised as a central teaching of the Buddha by the first millenium. [3]
2c) The original form of the four noble truths was a basic set in short form. [4]
2d) Schmithausen and Bronkhorst do not conclude that the four noble truths were a later addition into the cannon. Rather, that they were not as central in early Buddhism's history (a very different assertion to saying that it was later added due to the influence of other Indian thought). [5]
2e) Having established that the four noble truths as they currently appear in the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta may not have been in its earliest strata, Anderson articulates that the four noble truths are significant "for more reasons than their appearance in the... sutta". In addition, he states that the rest of his book is dedicated to providing this point. [6]
2f) Anderson makes an argument to the effect that the noble eight fold path is not out of place within the context of 'right view', despite being seemingly anomalous elsewhere. [7]
2g) In the introduction, Anderson states that one of the reasons that it is believed by Scholars that the noble truths are a later addition to the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, is that almost all versions found are identical and the homogeneity of different sutta versions point to a deliberate effort to align them by early Buddhists. Later on, Anderson shows that the four noble truths are scattered throughout the cannon in varying formats, indicating that they are an integral part of the cannon [8]
2h) One such example of the above is the Bhayabherava-sutta, of which the four noble truths are an integral part. [9]
2i) Anderson reiterates that although the extended forms of the four noble truths seem to be later additions, the four noble truths themselves are integral to the cannon (some arguments around whether the noble truths are an addition to the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta center around the idea that the extended forms of the noble truths are grammatically incorrect and therefore later additions - yet it seems Anderson is inclined to believe that the short form of this was originally part of the sutta - see 2c). He provides further supporting evidence in the form of the Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, Bhayabherava-sutta and Ariyapariyesana-sutta, each of which overlaps with the others in at least one aspect with regard to the Buddha's enlightenment narrative. He shows the interlocking nature of the narratives as non self contradictory, and as different angles of the Buddha's enlightenment experience. [10]
2j) Despite Bronkhorst etc. asserting that the four noble truths may not have been central to the pali cannon (see 2d), Anderson has a different view. In Anderson's view, the notion of a 'path' is central to the cannon, and the noble truths have a large part to play in this. [11]
3) On liberating insight. Arguments by Bronkhorst with respect to the noble truths were not originally synonymous with liberating insight seem to only be accepted by Anderson the basis of the illogic cited in (1) above
[12]. However, I have shown in (1) how that line of reasoning does not hold and is not, in fact, in line with the teachings of the cannon. Given this, and other statements made by Anderson above, it seems that he had to settle for proving that just that the noble truths were integral to the cannon - rather than proving the the four truths were synonymous with liberating insight. So what are we to do in this situation? Most other scholars such as Piadassi Thera do not question the authenticity of the noble truths. In addition, when all literary scholarly work on Buddhism is taken in aggregate (including the commentaries), almost all accept the four noble truths as being synonymous with liberating insight. Given this, it seems, that Bronkhorst and Vetter's view are a minor view, as defined in
WP:RS and should not be given undue weight, or should simply omitted - if only because their logic is flawed and the opinion of other scholars in the history of Buddhism is contrary to theirs.
As you can see from the points above, the logical arguments of Vetter etc. do not hold, and such cannot be given precedence with respect to other scholarly work. In addition, Anderson's work is more complex and varied than the current article would suggest. As such, I believe that these pages are in need of correction. @ Joshua Jonathan: Trutheyeness ( talk) 11:33, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
References
This Wikipedia article asserts that the noble truths are a later development in Buddhism and uses a few arguments to do so.
The function of the four truths, and their importance, developed over time, when prajna, or "liberating insight," came to be regarded as liberating in itself, [1] [2] instead of or in addition to the practice of dhyana, meditation. [1] This "liberating insight" gained a prominent place in the sutras, and the four truths came to represent this liberating insight, as part of the enlightenment story of the Buddha. [3] [4]
According to Bronkhorst, the four truths may already have been formulated in earliest Buddhism, but did not have the central place they acquired in later buddhism. [5] According to Anderson, only by the time of the commentaries, in the fifth century CE, did the four truths come to be identified in the Theravada tradition as the central teaching of the Buddha. [6]
According to the Japanese scholar Ui, the four truths are not the earliest representation of the Buddha's enlightenment. Instead, they are a rather late theory on the content of the Buddha's enlightenment. [7] According to Vetter and Bronkhorst, the earliest Buddhist path consisted of a set of practices which culminate in the practice of dhyana, leading to a calm of mind which according to Vetter is the liberation which is being sought. [8] [4] Later on, "liberating insight" came to be regarded as equally liberating. [3] [4] This "liberating insight" came to be exemplified by prajna, or the insight in the "four truths," [3] [4] but also by other elements of the Buddhist teachings. [8] [9] According to Vetter and Bronkhorst, this growing importance of "liberating insight" was a response to other religious groups in India, which held that a liberating insight was indispensable for moksha, liberation from rebirth. [10] [11]
References
...the Buddha could not possibly have gained an insight into the noble truths at the stage he did, because he would have already had to know and follow the eight fold path in order to reach said stage
Oddly, the four truths refer here to the eightfold path as the means to gain liberation, while the attainment of insight into the four truths is portrayed as liberating in itself.
In contrast, here this insight serves as the starting point to path-entry for his audience. [1] [2]
References
Further, Bronkhorst argues that it's not logical to present the eightfold path as the means to liberation, while similarly presenting insight into this path as the means to liberation. Compare it to baking cookies: you've got a recipe; understanding how the recipe works, does not instantly give you a plate of cookies. You still have to bake them.
References
the burden of proof is still on Bronkhorst and similar scholars to prove that insight into four noble truths cannot be synonymous with awakening (this is because the suttas, commentaries and scholarly works spanning 2 millennia all agree that they are synonymous with each other)
The ideas on what exactly constituted this "liberating insight" was not fixed but developed over time. [1] [2] According to Bronkhorst, in earliest Buddhism the four truths did not serve as a description of "liberating insight". [3] Initially the term prajna served to denote this "liberating insight." Later on, prajna was replaced in the suttas by the "four truths." [4] [5] [...] The four truths were superseded by pratityasamutpada, and still later, in the Hinayana schools, by the doctrine of the non-existence of a substantial self or person. [6] Schmithausen states that still other descriptions of this "liberating insight" exist in the Buddhist canon: "that the five Skandhas are impermanent, disagreeable, and neither the Self nor belonging to oneself"; [note 2] "the contemplation of the arising and disappearance (udayabbaya) of the five Skandhas"; [note 3] "the realisation of the Skandhas as empty (rittaka), vain (tucchaka) and without any pith or substance (asaraka). [note 4] [7]
References
commentaries and scholarly works spanning 2 millennia all agree that they [the four truths and awakening] are synonymous with each other)
I believe that the reason for that Bronkhorst etc. did not consider alternative explanations, such as the above, is that they were not sufficiently skilled practitioners and did not have access to such practitioners.
many scholars of Buddhism [are]...'outsiders' with a rigorous academic training, who are able to take into account a lot of "alternative explanations" which are untenable for religious practitioners who operate 'within a religious system, and cannot afford to deviate from that system.
References
Trutheyeness: I will let JJ continue his discussions with you. About your last para on Bronkhorst (pp 99-102 etc), please note that I struggled with the same issue long ago when I was reviewing / verifying / assisting JJ in matters related this article (see the talk page archives). There are several versions of Bronkhorst publication, where the page numbers vary significantly. It is chapter 8 and in part chapter 7, regardless of the version. There you find the context and relevant discussion on 4NT (for example, I see one patch of Bronkhorst discussions about 4NT on pp. 80-85 of the hard copy in my library). Those chapters do rely on the context set by the earlier chapters. Before signing off, I note my agreement with JJ in general above and about what we can include in this article per the wikipedia content guidelines, and my disagreement with you that "the opinions of even scholars need to be cross-examined before including their conclusions in articles" because that is a slippery slope, leads to cherrypicking and edit wars, more importantly it violates our NPOV, OR etc guidelines. Wikipedia can at best follow and "not lead" the scholarship curve, inform the diversity of views in peer-reviewed sources, both majority and significant minority, but that does not mean readers should not reflect, question the sides, decide for themselves, and continue the journey of knowledge and compassion. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:14, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
See note 21 for sources. That the primacy of insight is a later development is a given fact, for scholars. A really interesting point is: did the Buddha believe in rebirth, or did he teach release from dukkha here and now? The four truths seem to center on ending rebirth; that too may be a sign that their primacy is a later development. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding Nanavira Thera: did he reject the concept of rebirth? His Wiki-page is not clear on this. NB: avijja does not only refer to the four truths; that's typical Theravada scholasticism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Thus I think we can discount the notion that the earliest conception of liberating insight was the insight into the Four Noble Truths. The content of liberating insight in the earliest teaching is unclear.
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/ should point to
http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer. This might be needed else where also hence it might be good to get a bot to do the URL change. — Preceding
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Sirinath (
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15:03, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
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