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Coldcreation has been edit-warring to revert these changes, which attempt to summarize what the rest of the article says about the controversy over who created this piece ( reported today in BoingBoing, but ongoing in other sources for much longer). Coldcreation's preferred lead states flatly that it was produced by Duchamp, while the text later in the article reports on multiple possible theories for who the pseudonymous creator might be, including both Duchamp and two women. Can we have additional opinions on which lead to keep or what additional changes to the lead might be appropriate, please? In their reversions, Coldcreation cites a supposed ongoing discussion of the issue, but I see no such discussion (the last edits on this talk were a week ago), so maybe we can discuss it here. Note that I am currently taking no position on the title of the article (the subject of earlier discussions), only on what its lead should say. I note that the previous discussion of the title did include a sentiment that this issue be mentioned in the lead, and that Coldcreation's opposition there to any changes mostly focused on bad-faith accusations against proponents of change rather than on the substantive issues of the case. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:01, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
References
the lead serves as a summary of [the article's] most important contents. The only question is, therefore, whether the alternative hypothesis is supported amply enough for a mention in the text. That question seems to have already been answered since no editor has come foward demanding the relevant claims be removed from the main text.
We keep having discussions on this that peter out without reaching a clear consensus, so it is my hope that a formal RFC will bring in a broader set of editors and improve the state of affairs.
Historically this artwork has been credited as being by Marcel Duchamp. But, it was originally signed under a pseudonym and in the 1980s a letter was discovered in which Duchamp credited an unnamed female friend for the work. Many recent sources, including both popular press, academic journal articles, and the Tate Museum (see discussion), have felt it necessary to at least mention this issue. Several of these sources outline alternative theories for its authorship and the identity of this friend, including Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven, Louise Norton, or a female alter ego of Duchamp himself. Our article, too, describes these alternative theories in its body, but the lead (which by MOS:LEAD should accurately summarize the body) instead flatly says "produced by Marcel Duchamp") and the lead image (redundantly) also says "by Marcel Duchamp" without qualification. We have had multiple past discussions on this issue but they have tended to peter out inconclusively, and then their lack of conclusion has been used repeatedly by editors Coldcreation and Modernist as a reason for keeping the status quo, with any changes to the lead being reverted with edit summaries like "needs to be settled at talk page" or "per talk". In the meantime, another editor Trishcan has entered the debate with an alternative lead that in my mind goes too far in another direction, going into excessive detail in the lead about the authorship question and choosing sides in favor of Elsa.
So, can we have a wider discussion, please, on the following five questions:
We have also had discussions here about whether "(Duchamp)" is an accurate disambiguator for the article title but I would prefer to keep that out of the RFC for now. For the record, my own answers to these questions are (1) yes, with no additional changes needed; (2) yes, (3) no, (4) yes, (5) no. (In more detail re 4 vs 5: We should teach the controversy rather than picking sides, per WP:NPOV. And I don't think it is currently the consensus of art scholarship that EvFL created it. Rather, there are still many scholars who hold to the Duchamp theory, and others who would more likely say that it's unclear rather than picking any alternative theory. So until such a consensus is formed I think saying so here is premature.) — David Eppstein ( talk) 21:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Hiplibrarianship and Coldcreation have found a new and uninteresting thing to edit-war about: whether a source labeled as a "blog" on seeallthis.com can be used as a reliable source. So in an effort to cut this off, I'd like to start a discussion here instead. Coldcreation's position appears to be that it's a blog and therefore unreliable. However, that's an overly strict reading of our policy. Per WP:RS "Some news outlets host interactive columns that they call "blogs", and these may be acceptable as sources if the writers are professional journalists or professionals in the field on which they write, and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." Seeallthis.com appears to be a Dutch art magazine with the usual level of editorial control that one would expect of an art magazine. However, it's a minor-enough magazine that we don't have an article on it. Can we maybe agree that (1) it's not inherently unreliable, but (2) because the same material is already covered by sources that are more well known and at least as reliable, there is no good reason to use this as a source? That is, even though (I believe) this source is not forbidden by policy, I think it would be preferable not to use it. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
180, not 90, shurely? -- A.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.186.140 ( talk) 21:21, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and "around it's axis" seems weird as well. Lisiate ( talk) 08:26, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
@ David Eppstein: There is one axis about which the object is rotated ninety degrees. Art historians are correct. (Like a coffee cup placed on its side). Coldcreation ( talk) 07:06, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's an interesting find, by a professor of art history at the University of Iowa, Craig Adcock:
A central part of the Fountain's geometry is its inversion—a rotation that changes it from a drain into a fountain. Moreover, its 90° rotation can be taken as a reference to the flipflops involved in four-dimensional rotation. As we have seen, such a rotation through the fourth dimension results in a left-right reversal and an inside–outside transformation. If an object such as the Fountain were so rotated, it would undergo, at least in metaphorical terms, a concavity-convexity transposition. [...] the Fountain can only be rotated ninety degrees; it cannot take a full demi-tour through the fourth dimension and thereby have its "female" concavity transformed into "male" convexity. (Source: Adcock, Craig. Duchamp's Eroticism: A Mathematical Analysis, Dada/Surrealism 16 (1987): 149-167).
Coldcreation ( talk) 16:28, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Right now, in the lead it is written: "In Duchamp's presentation the urinal's orientation was altered from its usual positioning." That is fine for the lead. In the main body: "reoriented it 90 degrees from its originally intended position of use"... per references. Fine! Coldcreation ( talk) 19:11, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Coldcreation ( talk) 19:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Coldcreation ( talk) 19:51, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
The animation is obviously not the rotation that David Eppstein has described, starting with his very first comment in this section. I mean, really obviously. XOR'easter ( talk) 20:20, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
he also rotated the form 180 degrees and mounted it on a pedestal
the urinal Fountain was exhibited rotated by 180 degrees
Consisting of a readymade urinal purchased from Fifth Avenue's J. L. Mott Iron Works, rotated 180 degrees, and tagged with a pseudonym
Notice for lurkers and future historians specializing in Wikipedia discussion pages, this topic now has a break-off section, 90° rotation, two sections below Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
@
Lisiate,
David Eppstein,
Coldcreation,
Bus stop,
XOR'easter,
Randy Kryn, and
Tamfang:
Here is a simple diagram presenting how one can turn an urinal into the Fountain by 90° or 180° rotation (images in the upper and the lower row, respectively) with appropriate choice of the rotation axis (fat red lines).
Best regards, CiaPan ( talk) 14:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Huh, that went further than I'd expected. Thanks everyone for clearing that up. (Personally I think 'tipped on it's back' would be how I'd describe it). Lisiate ( talk) 20:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
The lead states “Some scholars have suggested that the original work was by a female artist rather than Duchamp, but this is a minority view among historians”. Which sources in the article body support the claim that this is minority view? Might this be reworded to something more neutral? JeroenHoek ( talk) 18:09, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Art historians generally refer to the position of Duchamp's Fountain as rotated 90° from its originally intended position. Other solutions exist, such as a rotation of 180° (about a diagonal axis), but the 90° rotation is preferred for it's simplicity, clarity, beauty, and elegance. The rotation is important because it represents a modification of the ready-made object. By choosing the urinal, signing it, and repositioning it, the found object became art. The 90° rotation was sufficient to satisfy the artists goal. (Some historians consider only the un-altered objects to be readymades). The diagrams below exemplify why the vast majority of art historians speak correctly of a 90° transformation, with respect to Fountain:
For a more detailed description see the file pages at Commons. Coldcreation ( talk) 08:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Would you care to explain why?My intended answer, now obsolete was this:
Please, allow for some time, especially, since the pic has changed meanwhile, to compose an appropriate explanation, void of WP:OR and fitting to the artsy-fartsy imagery of serious geometry in higher dimensions, sketched in the thread above. As a first hint, I point to the misleading arc, labeled 90°, between two lines, insinuating to be Cartesian axes belonging to a rotated body, which they do not. BTW, the last, now new, pic in the triptychon seems to involve an additional 180° rotation. I am not sure if this makes up for 270° in art-circles.
And those sources above that mention 180 degrees are not WP:RELIABLE— Why not? Because they mention 180 degrees? (The Adcock source you insisted upon adding to the article was manifestly unreliable, as far as mathematics is concerned, since everything it does not copy out of an earlier popularization of mathematics is in error.)
There is no preferred frame of reference when observing a 3-dimensional work of art.Untrue. Frames of reference in which the floor is horizontal are preferred in a very practical sense, for example. It would be more justified to say that there are no preferred axes around which to rotate a work of art, and consequently, the statement "Duchamp ... reoriented it 90 degrees", which includes no specification of the axis of rotation, is meaningless. XOR'easter ( talk) 17:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
How is it possible that these people continue to believe that "tipping it backwards through the wall" completes the transformation? It doesn't. If you do it that way, you still have to rotate it 180 degrees (or, the same thing by relativity, walk around it) to get to the usual view. So the tipping part of it has saved you zero effort because the 180 degree rotation is still needed. Or, you could just do the 180 degree rotation in the correct axis to begin with. Alternatively, if you somehow believe that the walking around part should not be counted as a transformation (because reasons), then just put it down on the ground in its normal position and loom over it from behind and above, looking down on it. Voila! You now see the sculpture in its sculpture position with zero transformations. — David Eppstein ( talk) 18:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Not Coldcreation ( talk) 20:40, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
"artsy-fartsy"is as poorly defined as the notion of there being a proper frame of reference for a three-dimensional object. Bus stop ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The 2-D photo is not a work of art. Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen. The work represented is 3-D and thus meant to be seen from any angle. There is no addition of (or "plus") a 180° rotation in planes parallel to the floor required. Coldcreation ( talk) 11:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The 2-D photo is not a work of art.That seems rather to insult the entire art of photography. Checking the caption: "Marcel Duchamp Fountain, 1917, photograph by Alfred Stieglitz" ... clicking the link for Alfred Stieglitz... "who was instrumental over his fifty-year career in making photography an accepted art form." Huh. And since the original is lost, we ought to talk about the art we do have, oughtn't we?
Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen.No, but it is the view from which the object is seen, while reading this article. Any description that implies a frontal view which is inconsistent with the photo is a poor integration of picture and text, and is apt to be confusing to any reader who pauses to think about it. We don't have the freedom to walk around the photograph. (In the distance, I hear the cries of all the graphic designers who were told by their clients, "Just flip it in Photoshop so we can see the back!") To make a deliberate pun of the matter: the photograph establishes a preferred frame.
If the angle compared to what it is - a new and unmounted urinal - must be mentioned— I am more and more convinced that it isn't necessary. Without specifying an axis of rotation, giving a number of degrees is incomplete. An attempt to complete the description (e.g., "so that it lies flat on its wall-plate") ends up making the number of degrees redundant. If we actually try to be good expositors and integrate picture with text (while also benefiting readers with poor vision), we might eschew the digits altogether. For example, "The artist brought the urinal to his studio at 33 West 67th Street, reoriented it from its originally intended position of use to lie flat on its wall-plate instead, and signed it "R. Mutt 1917". In the frontal view photographed by Alfred Stieglitz, the water inflow pipe of the urinal, which is normally vertical, instead faces the viewer." XOR'easter ( talk) 17:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
@ XOR'easter: Your first point is the logical fallacy of appeal to probability: assuming all photographs must be artworks, since some are. Your argument lacks deductive validity since your premise is false. The second point is the proof by assertion fallacy: the Stieglitz view-point is the preferred reference frame is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction. Your third point is a slippery slope argument: that the inclusion of "90°" is likely to result in unintended consequences, and to avoid such a catastrophe, should not be included in the article. Coldcreation ( talk) 19:35, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Some sculptures do have a natural "front" side even if others do not. Regarding this particular sculpture, you don't see in Google images anyone photographing it from the "back". Gabn1 ( talk) 20:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
For Beatrice Wood, indeed, Fountain was not only the "Madonna of the Bathroom", but also comparable to "a Brancusi, with curved lines of genuine sensitivity", a formal logic perhaps informed by the fact that Fountain and a version of Princess X were both slated to appear at the 1917 New York Independents exhibition. But Fountain is also a "female object" according to another of Duchamp's randy quip. ( [4])
I read recently about the beauty of all side of Fountain. I will search for that text. Meanwhile, the above describes the types of 3-D objects that are appealing, or at least should be seen, from all sides, like a madonna. Who would dream of not rotating around a female object? Edit: Beatrice Wood's text dates to 1917. Indeed, from its inception, Fountain was seen for what it was, and was to become. Coldcreation ( talk) 20:43, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
This articles is and will continue to be based on reliable third-party published sources with a reputation for accuracy. The opinions of reliable authors are published, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted (or misinterpreted) primary source material for themselves: Per WP:RS Coldcreation ( talk) 23:34, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Lisiate, David Eppstein, Coldcreation, Bus stop, XOR'easter, Randy Kryn, and Tamfang: Here is a simple diagram presenting how one can turn an urinal into the Fountain by 90° or 180° rotation (images in the upper and the lower row, respecively) with appropriate choice of the rotation axis (fat red lines).
Best regards, CiaPan ( talk) 14:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
the most important concept moving forward is to explainthe significance of choosing a new position, then why not simply describe the repositioning and the accompanying photograph in plain words, and then in the "Interpretations" section, go on to summarize the metaphors people have read into it about gender inversion and so forth? (I should say the conjectural repositioning, since all we have is a story to begin with, and it's entirely possible that Duchamp just saw it in the shop that way, because a guy at the iron works was afraid it would tip over if he stored it vertically, and Duchamp thought, "Hey, it looks different like that" — or, rather, Cela semble un peu nouvel! Choosing to take the unfamiliar and not make it ordinary is still a choice, after all.) XOR'easter ( talk) 15:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Rudolf E. Kuenzli states, in Dada and Surrealist Film (1996), after describing how various readymades are presented or displayed: "This decontextualization of the object's functional place draws attention to the creation of its artistic meaning by the choice of the setting and positioning ascribed to the object." He goes on to explain the importance of naming the object (ascribing a title). At least three factors came into play: the choice of object, the title, and how it was modified, if at all, from its 'normal' position or location. By virtue of placing a urinal on a pedestal in an art exhibition, the illusion of an artwork was created. Rudolf E. Kuenzli, Dada and Surrealist Film, MIT Press, 1996, p. 47. Coldcreation ( talk) 08:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
jesus christ yall he just put it on its side, yall sound like the artist pharisees that wouldnt let him submit this stolen stolen idea in the first place — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Hotdurger (
talk •
contribs)
06:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
DavidEppstein the most recent edits correcting the history are being removed by David Eppstein, who has removed other ones on this subject also. There is now conclusive proof that the work was created by F-L, including the letter from Duchamp himself and that she was using the alias Richard Mutt for some time before sending the work to Duchamp. Further the use of found objects was a key aspect of her work and not of Duchamps at the time. Eppstein states that this is a 'minority view amongst scholars'. It might have been once but, speaking as someone with connections to the arts, unlike Eppstein, the history has now moved on & wiki should reflect that. To rely only on past research, and research that was it has to be said from a patriarchal reading of the history, is highly problematic. The correct origins of the work are now part of academic curriculums, collections have adjusted their archives to reflect the origins and the majority view within the arts supports the facts around F-L's involvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Do let me know whose name I have not spelt correctly. I'm afraid the view that because a lot of papers claim Duchamp created the work is not reliable proof that he did either. Let me detail this; the view that Duchamp created it is based on zero evidence except for one story he told, later, that is seen aa a further attempt to 'play' with the works history (connecting it to a popular cartoon of the time). Art history is full of papers that discredit the work of female artists or fail to include them & that has to now be taken into account when looking for facts around any contested work. Duchamp has no history of working with found objects at the time, F-L did. Duchamp had no interest in plumbing objects at the time, F-L did, creating very similar works prior to fountain. Duchamp was not prevented from submitting to the exhibition as he was male & therefore had no need to use an alias, F-L was and therefore often submitted works using her alias of Richard Mutt. The work was sent to the exhibition from a city and a person with whom Duchamp had had no face-to-face contact with for sometime prior to it arriving. F-L on the other hand refers to her plumbing object works in correspondence prior to 1917. F-L's work 'God' serves as another part of the proof that she created fountain. Given that an alias was used and despite the fact that it was the one F-L had been using for some time, it is not 'history' to simply stick to one unsupported version when new evidence and a new reading of the history is established. Since the works first exhibition in 1917 there have been a large number of papers, books, articles on it of course but to continue to deny that they were created, and still are to some extent, within a culture that is based on patriarchal attitudes is not history but a refusal to accept the progression of it. Taking recent papers most are by students with a limited knowledge of the subject (overviews of Duchamp or Dada) but of the ones written by acknowledged experts on Duchamp and Dada all now accept that F-L created the work. User:JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 06:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
please do stop removing edits that correct the problematic history of this piece. There is now conclusive proof that the piece was by F-L (see her page on wiki for other examples of her working with found objects, including items of plumping, prior to the exhibition of fountain). This is now the widely accepted origins of the work and academic texts are being updated, catalogues & archives in galleries corrected and curriculums changed. Arguments put forward state that there was no proof that F-L created the work but there is also no proof that Duchamp did either. There is however significant proof now that F-L did and as part of a series of works. A forthcoming biography will detail the research in full. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I thought I would include a link to this substantive discussion around fountain which contains numerous references to the work of established experts, galleries and friends of both artists. It needs to be included in the main page & I will try to do that but as any readers will see there is a lot that could be referenced. http://www.thejackdaw.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Duchamp-Fountain-II1.pdf User: JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 11:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
in reply to the most recent comments above. I did cite an extensive article (9) which also references all of the key sources of fact and research on this matter. It is often hard to know who editors are of course so when comments like 'there is no consensus in the arts' it is not possible to know from what position they are speaking. It is now widely accepted that F-L was responsible for the work and galleries that own one of the later versions reference this in exhibitions. The attribution has been added to most of the major academic sources used in teaching this area of art. I note that editors mention an earlier consensus but also that none of them seem to want to discuss the additional research that either wasn't referenced at that time or has been published since. As such it does appear not that there is an attempt to ensure the page is factual but rather only that it maintains the assertion that it was created by Duchamp & even if some refuse to accept all of the facts as discussed in citation 9 there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and never has been, that proves Duchamp was responsible, save for one story he told some 40 years later and that is proved to be unreliable in said research. At the very least the page should now reflect the proof that the work is not by Duchamp. Of the 5 or so leading experts on Dada and Duchamp all accept that he did not originate the work. As I have stated already I would ask editors to read the research cited (9) and note all of the sources cited in it User: JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
ref. the comment from freshacconci about my comment on sexist distortion. It is actually himself that I am referring to as he has a history of removing corrective edits on the work of female artists. I note that he sees this as an attack but I would counter that by saying that denying female artists the recognition they deserve is an attack not only on said artists but on art history, and wiki itself. I have attempted, repeatedly, to discuss the various edits and pages with him but he refuses to do so in any detail. There is a growing concern in the arts that wiki is a site controlled by men who remove attempts to correct histories, including on subjects such as classical music and science where they're have been extensive wiki-editing events that have then seen their work removed without good reason. Again, the sources have been cited, and they have been removed. How can any consensus be arrived at when almost all of the research on this matter is ignored? I say 'almost all' because apart from some very old articles and books even most of the ones already cited on the page cast doubt on Duchamp and several argue that it was a work by F-L.
User: JrFedit —Preceding
undated comment added
14:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Hesperian Nguyen: All I would add in reply here is that the Jackdaw article discussed a large number of sources and logistical facts that were not already part of the page. Further your comment about my edits on other pages continues to show that whatever ref’s are provided on edits the opinions of ‘more senior’ editors takes precedent even over artists themselves or the work of highly respected academics, foundations and in catalogue raisonne's . ‘Sloppy’, whilst a needlessly insulting word, I will admit that in the first edits I attempted on other pages it did take me a week or so to work out some of the methods used for inserting citations for example. The ref.’s to F-L using Richard Mutt as an alias are not new and are contained in numerous papers that have emerged since the expansion of research into her in the 1980’s. Duchamp himself mentions that she used the name ‘Richard’ in archived letters. The monograph on F-L’s work clearly shows that she was working with found objects for some years before Duchamp, and before he used the term ‘ready mades’ (the first use of this term by him in print is in a 1916 letter to his sister, as outlined in the MoMA archives however as another ref. mentioned below indicates he did not invent the term). As for sources various aspects of this are detailed in Gammel, Jones (Irrational Modernism) & Beagles, as well as in more recent papers available online. Rather than continuing to dismiss fact based research please read the detailed reply to this ongoing issue about the research on fountain at the end of these other comments to individual editors.
other comment (the user name is not visible to me for some reason);
F-L’s use of found objects pre-dates that of Duchamp, not to mention that F-L is widely acknowledged to have been a significant influence on Duchamp and others involved in Dada. It had been part of her work in various forms throughout her activity in the arts. Other artists were also using found objects and the invention of ‘ready made’ as a term by Duchamp, and how it is being used here, is indicative of the problem of male artists, intentionally or not, colonising techniques by naming them and by having more access to profile than female artists. My comment ‘at the time’ refers to the time when F-L was using found objects.
David E; edits by MelanieN and SerialNumber54129 occurred after my comments about male editors so I am unsure why they are included but it does seem obvious that there is an attempt to mislead by doing this. Much of your comment is classic gas lighting and does not take into account that I was referring to clearly patriarchal distortion of art history in general and how it is the basis for lots of wiki pages. I would add that whilst its often not possible to know whether any editor identifies as male, female or neither, some of the attitdes, across multiple pages, do tend to suggest an opposition to correcting patriarchal distortions of art history. It's possible that women could stand against that in a similar way but I doubt it.
yamla: its not that I failed on the talk page, its that none of the other editors discussed the research or the various points put forward when I commented. If you read through the talk page there is no discussion before that comment. What there is is defensive attacks that repeatedly refuse to indicate in depth knowledge of the range of research on the subject and merely dismiss what is now the widely accepted research. Rather than continuing to dismiss fact based research please read the detailed reply to this ongoing issue about the research on fountain at the end of these other comments to individual editors.
Basic points on Fountain and this ongoing issue of attribution; Not since the 1980’s, when research into F-L’s work, including her connection to Fountain, has the consensus in the art world been that Duchamp created the original work. Further prior to that there has never been consensus that he did as there was never any corroborated proof of the identity of the artist. This is an important example of how, without any proof, patriarchal bias and position allows a male artist, Duchamp in this instance, to be assumed to have created a work with, at the very least, far less proof that he created it than there is for a female artists having done so. This issue sits at the core of the patriarchal systems across all subjects areas that have allowed credit to be given to men over the decades without any proof of it and how those assumed histories eventually become the ‘accepted’ history by some. In this example there is not one single authorised source or catalogue that ascribes the original work to Duchamp without question that has been published since the 80s. As I would like to think most editors on art pages know there is a system of attribution that involves the definitions; by, from the school of, from the studio of, after, ascribed to and disputed. Where there are disagreements it is the catalogue raisonne that is regarded as a pivotal reference. All versions of Duchamp’s are archived at the Kandinsky Library of the Centre Pompidou. Not one of these claims that the original fountain was ‘by’ Duchamp and since the revised 1997 edition the original work has been officially referred to as either disputed or with the explanation that whilst later versions were produced from his studio the original is not proven to be by Duchamp.
Concerning the term ready-made that is used in defence of Duchamp by some editors, ascribing an incorrect timeline for its use, the following passage from ‘Ready Made Century’ (Daniels) states that ‘Bicycle Wheel’ which some editors claim to prove his use of the technique and term in 1913 (it is not a readymade but a assemblage as it consists of two parts put together by Duchamp) “Accordingly, it is not classified as a readymade by Duchamp in his Boîte-en-valise. In later interviews he always stressed that when he first mounted the Bicycle Wheel in his studio, it had no connection to the term readymade, which he would only hear later in the US. “The word did not exist—the thought did not exist…”
The Guardian article exposes the problems around Duchamp, some years after F-L had passed and almost 40 years after Fountain was exhibited, starting to claim the work as his in the 1950’s, though he only did this once in a conversation that included a blatant untruth that he purchased the urinal from Mott Works despite the fact that it did not manufacture that model of urinal at the time. There are other important points in this text, such as that the handwriting of ‘R. Mutt’ matches F-L’s used in her poetic works and differs significantly from any by Duchamp. There are also (in said article and more detailed research) points about aspects of the style & meaning of the work being at odds with anything else Duchamp created but central to much of F-L's work. The extensive research is also contained in the mentioned Glyn Thompson and Julian Spalding 2015 exhibition A Lady’s Not a Gent’s, aspects of it in Gamell’s book on F-L and also in ‘Stranger Than We Can Imagine: Making Sense of the Twentieth Century' by John Higgs. The problem here is that a small number of editors on wiki are deciding what the consensus is in very stark contrast to the reality of that consensus outside of wiki. I understand why allowing editors to remain anonymous can be useful but when it comes to significant and important issues around misattribution or prejudice in the arts (or any subject) the problem is that it's not possible to know whether those editing have in-depth knowledge of the subject, have kept up with the research or indeed have a problematic attitude generally and I would say that some such attitudes are obvious in this discussion (inc. gas lighting, sexism, misrepresentation of the sequence of edits etc). I note in the discussion on this page from 2018 that some of those arguing against changing the page offer no proof whatsoever that Duchamp created the work & it has been the same in this more recent discussion. There is no proof that he did yet wiki editors insist the work is attributed to him and any doubt only discussed as a side-theory. Given the extensive research that is now available (and much has been since the 80’s, almost 40 years ago) the continued insistence that the work be credited to Duchamp on an important public information site is very clearly part of the refusal of some to accept the patriarchal bias it represents.
It should also be noted here that the estate of Duchamp does not consider the original Fountain to have been by him, only the copies. To put all of this another way; given that there is no corroborated proof or fact based research (fact based as in research that looks at logistical aspects, earlier work, photographs, letters and papers from the time etc) that Duchamp created Fountain but that since the 1980’s at least there has been more and more evidence that Duchamp did not create it, what would it take for that to be properly reflected in how the work is referred to on the entire wiki page? On that research the view put forward on wiki, and that seems to be being allowed to remain no matter what, is that there is controversy around the work, and further that one of 3 possible women might have created it. That was the widely held view for some years after research into feminist art history, and into this work and the women mentioned began, but it hasn’t been for some years now. We aren’t talking 2 or 3 years but almost 40. Nowhere else in the arts discusses the work in the way wiki does.
One other way to look at all of this (and this goes for other examples in the arts where the work of female artists is either ignored, suppressed or dismissed) is that if the page properly reflected the doubt around the work by, for example, not referring to it as 'by Duchamp' that would not diminish the work or Duchamp’s reputation at all but it would allow students and other interested parties a further source of information that fits in with the widely held view and expands on the important move within the arts to reflect the feminist research that has taken place since the 1970's (to clarify; feminist as in attempting to fully research the role of previously unknown, ignored or suppressed female artists) As it stands reading this wiki page, and lots of others on the site connected to the arts, is like stepping back in time to an era before feminism and feminist research.
On a set of scales the evidence for not Duchamp & for F-L far outweighs the narrow evidence, based entirely on supposition, for his involvement. All of the established facts around both artists, the era and the logistical aspects (facts not opinions such as it being mailed from where F-L was living, her use of various plays on the sound of R.Mutt & its connections to german words) support that he didn’t or couldn’t have created the work. All other assertions are opinions based on the old assumption that he created the work but without any proof.
When it comes to the view that significant changes to the page should be agreed upon on the talk page first perhaps some of you will reflect on the fact that this hasn’t worked before, not only on this post but on others attempting to correct problematic content on art & artworks. I'm referring here to major articles where proven facts have been removed and unproven ones allowed to remain. If current editors want other, perhaps newer editors, or those with more direct, up to date connection to the research, to be involved, shutting down attempts to correct problematic content is not ideal. I accept my initial attempt to edit the page was activism based but the system has not worked for this work or for 1000's of other wiki pages (classical composer pages where 18 year old male students are listed but attempts to edit in significant female composers are constantly removed, Sound Art page which is, frankly, something of a joke seeing as how it includes mostly male musicians (some who never use the term Sound Art of have it ascribed to their work) but again where significant female artists are removed or not listed)
Wiki of course allows anyone to edit pages and so there is always going to be an issue around the accuracy of contentious works as a very small number of editors decide on what should be allowed to be stated as fact, even when such views are unsupported by the research. I am sure some editors involved in this discussion, as they have stated, accept that there is doubt and controversy and yet the unsupported credit given to Duchamp remains (and the page is now locked to prevent others from editing unless approved by certain other editors). That can only be seen as patriarchal bias and therefore adds to the widely held view that wiki is actively complicit in the ongoing issue of sexism across various subjects. There are numerous examples across wiki of carefully researched and cited refs being removed based on nothing but the power of some editors to do so and that is a significant problem. The only way to counter such bias is to ensure that where there is at least proof of doubt about a work or of the involvement of female artists that that is fully included and that unsupported attribution of work is not allowed to lead and dominate an article. I don't expect any of the proof & research mentioned to be discussed here so i'm stepping out of this issue now. If editors are ok with wiki being incorrect or biased then that is up to them but students / younger art interested people, perhaps without access to large libraries or the time to go into all the research deserve to have access to sites that keep up with the research and do not reinforce problematic attribution of work User: JrFedits — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
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in reply; unfortunately this editor is blatantly refusing to accept any of the research, either on Duchamp or on F-L, the catalogue raissone or the Duchamp Foundation itself. There is a large amount of research on F-L now & on the attribution to Duchamp. Again, there is nothing in any book on Duchamp or paper on fountain that contains any factual evidence that he created the work. This is not 'opinion' but hard research around such things as her use of 'Richard' and 'Mutt', the postal address the work was sent from etc. Insulting me or any editor doesn't detract from this editors arrogance and refusal to acknowledge facts or highly respected research.
It's also worth pointing out that the French wiki page ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontaine_(Duchamp) ), and most other international versions, do not attribute the work to Duchamp in the same way anymore, because they reflect only actual research that has ever been done on the piece (prior to 1979 there was no research on it that didn't start from the assumption that he did based only on patriarchy and his false statement in the 50's). Instead it says "Fontaine (in English: Fountain ) is a ready-made by Marcel Duchamp or Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven" & goes on to reference some of the research repeatedly removed from this wiki page. ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
everything I have stated is based on the research that is contained in numerous books & papers. All you seem to do is refuse to accept research whilst sticking to a version of the story that has had even less research done on it, whilst throwing insults around. I forgot to add another key fact; Duchamp has stopped exhibiting and creating physical works at that point, working only with text, and did not start again until some years after 'Fountain'. ( User talk:JrFedit)
all of which are some years after Fountain, except for The Large Glass which was worked on but not shown until 1923. As is included in most of the key books on Duchamp he had stopped exhibiting objects, except for textbased works (including L.H.O.O.Q.), for some years between 1914/15 & the 1920's & this is also included as a supporting piece of evidence in the research into F-L & Fountain since then 1980's. Editors who refuse to acknowledge the research, the findings of the Catalogue Raissone and the Duchamp estate / foundation need to have a think about their motives for constantly refusing to accept any of it, and its interesting that the same editors do similar things on other pages where there have been attempts to correctly include female artists User:JrFedit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.207.142.205 ( talk) 17:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
well, i've been involved in positive activism & curation within the arts in terms of female artists for a few decades now so i'm not going to take any suggestions from someone who has an edit history that involves conflict of interest & other problematic behaviour and who shows obvious signs of sexism in their selective understanding of research and refusal to accept any of the more recent research that contradicts their biased views. I've also worked on projects with the Duchamp archives and estate, on a project to highlight the important work of female dada-ist artists, the work of several of whom Duchamp tried to suppress, as indeed did others at the time. So far my experience of editing on wiki, which I have done on a few pages, all about key female artists, has been one of constant refusal by male editors to allow properly referenced edits and to insult and dismiss the work of said artists. There are 10's of 1000's of pages that are blatantly problematic & there comes a point where it becomes obvious not that work needs to be done but that problematic work is constantly been done. You can't keep defending a system that excludes some research but allows only other research, or indeed opinions not based on any research (no research has ever proved Duchamp created the work). user:JrFedit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.207.142.205 ( talk) 21:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I have, if you bothered to read things carefully, already admitted that it has taken me awhile to get used to certain aspects of wiki editing. The 'revision warring' I dispute as I attempted to correctly adjust the page to reflect the wide ranging consensus on this work. The warring came from others refusing to accept that or discuss the various items of research. Again, if you bothered to read the history you would see that all of the research has been mentioned inc. the research that has been removed from the page despite being published widely. You claim I have provided 0 usable citations but the majority of the points I have made are already in research referenced on the page. I have mentioned the catalogue raisonne, which is the definitive source on the work of an artist. I have mentioned & ref. the French wiki page that more accurately reflects the research. The wider point here is that it is obvious to me that even if a letter from Duchamp was found saying 'Else did it' with a photo of her taking Fountain to be shipped you would argue against it. It doesn't matter the number of times the research is mentioned you refuse to accept it. Seriously, google F-L & get reading. There are numerous papers available as pdf's for example & I attempted to get some of these included on the page but they were rejected & removed & the page locked to all but 'approved editors'. Do the research. Doing anything else is complicity in the sexist distortion of art history. JrFedit ( talk) 22:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
the 'reliable sources' do not support the firm belief that Duchamp created the work. As already mentioned in the art world the definitive source is the catalogie raissone & it does not list Fountain as being 'by' Duchamp. The 1997 edition lists it as 'attributed to' and the more recent edition states only that his studio produced later replica's. To anyone outside of the small cabal of editors attempting to dismiss the more recent research the locking of the main page, the constant dismissal of research here, the removal of citations on the main page & now this request to archive this 'pointless discussion' are all part of the problem. I am not at my base so this is only a partial list but here are some of the key texts that contain the various elements of the research that supports that Duchamp did not create the original work & that F-L did. Again, this particular version of Wiki is in the vast minority, as almost all others correctly reflect the research now &, as on the French version, use both artists as possible creators of the work or F-L for the original & Duchamp for the copies.
Catalogie Raissone Marcel Duchamp (1997 & later revisions) Duchamp - various letters (archive) F-L - archive (held at the Uni of M-Land) William Carlos Williams - letters (archive) & published autobiography & paper by A. Allkins Gammel - Baroness Elsa: Gender, Dada, and Everyday Modernity—A Cultural Biography (revised edition) Gammel - ‘Body Sweats’ (2016) Jones - ‘Irrational Modernism’ (2004) Jones - Postmodernism and the En-gendering of Marcel Duchamp (1994) Steinke - ‘Holy Skirts’ (2005) Franklin - Women in Dada (1998) Gale ‘Dada & Surrealism’ (1997) Hemus - ‘Dada’s Women’ (2009) Smith / Watson - ‘Interfaces: Women, Autobiography, Image, Performnce (2005) Gammel - “Breaking the Bonds of Discretion: Baroness Elsa and the Female Sexual Confession.” (1995) Gammel - “’She Strips Naked’ (2003) Gammel - “Taking off her Chemise in Public: New York Dada, Irrational Modernism, and the Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven” (2005) Gammel / Zelazo. "’Harpsichords Metallic Howl’ (2011) Goddard - ‘The perils of Baroness Elsa. (2005) Lappin - “Dada Queen in the Bad Boys' Club’ (2004) McKible - ‘Life is Real and Life is Earnest’ (2005) Scott - ‘The Art of Madness.’ Werth - ‘Mama-Dada’ (1999) Wetzsteon - ‘The Baroness of Greenwich Village’ (1996) Beagles - ‘Putting Dada Flesh on the Bone’ (2006) Various - ‘The Politics of Cultural Mediation: Baroness Elsa Von Freytag-Loringhoven and Felix Paul Greve’ (2003) Reilly - ‘Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven’ (Women’s Art Journal, 1997) Maaswinkel - ‘The Enigma of the Urinal’ (2017) Czaki - ‘The Baroness is all Hands’ (2015) Giepert - published letter on the Baroness (2016) & ‘Who Did It?’ (Jackdaw)
JrFedit ( talk) 07:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I wish to highlight the following entry in the Origin section:
Whether Mr Mutt with his own hands made the fountain or not has no importance. He CHOSE it. He took an ordinary article of life, placed it so that its useful significance disappeared under the new title and point of view – created a new thought for that object. [2]
In a number of sources the entirety of these are pages not attributed to Louis Norton. Instead the attribute The Richard Mutt Case to Beatrice Wood and the essay below – there is also a clear page break –, Buddha of the Bathroom, to Louis Norton. Note the detailed Tate Modern entry that mentions Woods biography: [5] https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duchamp-fountain-t07573.
Hesperian Nguyen ( talk) 01:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Not sure if this contains new evidence, which is why I’m adding the link here: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/oct/15/conceptualist-art-fountain-is-fake-say-historians-marcel-duchamp Breston ( talk) 13:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
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Coldcreation has been edit-warring to revert these changes, which attempt to summarize what the rest of the article says about the controversy over who created this piece ( reported today in BoingBoing, but ongoing in other sources for much longer). Coldcreation's preferred lead states flatly that it was produced by Duchamp, while the text later in the article reports on multiple possible theories for who the pseudonymous creator might be, including both Duchamp and two women. Can we have additional opinions on which lead to keep or what additional changes to the lead might be appropriate, please? In their reversions, Coldcreation cites a supposed ongoing discussion of the issue, but I see no such discussion (the last edits on this talk were a week ago), so maybe we can discuss it here. Note that I am currently taking no position on the title of the article (the subject of earlier discussions), only on what its lead should say. I note that the previous discussion of the title did include a sentiment that this issue be mentioned in the lead, and that Coldcreation's opposition there to any changes mostly focused on bad-faith accusations against proponents of change rather than on the substantive issues of the case. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:01, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
References
the lead serves as a summary of [the article's] most important contents. The only question is, therefore, whether the alternative hypothesis is supported amply enough for a mention in the text. That question seems to have already been answered since no editor has come foward demanding the relevant claims be removed from the main text.
We keep having discussions on this that peter out without reaching a clear consensus, so it is my hope that a formal RFC will bring in a broader set of editors and improve the state of affairs.
Historically this artwork has been credited as being by Marcel Duchamp. But, it was originally signed under a pseudonym and in the 1980s a letter was discovered in which Duchamp credited an unnamed female friend for the work. Many recent sources, including both popular press, academic journal articles, and the Tate Museum (see discussion), have felt it necessary to at least mention this issue. Several of these sources outline alternative theories for its authorship and the identity of this friend, including Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven, Louise Norton, or a female alter ego of Duchamp himself. Our article, too, describes these alternative theories in its body, but the lead (which by MOS:LEAD should accurately summarize the body) instead flatly says "produced by Marcel Duchamp") and the lead image (redundantly) also says "by Marcel Duchamp" without qualification. We have had multiple past discussions on this issue but they have tended to peter out inconclusively, and then their lack of conclusion has been used repeatedly by editors Coldcreation and Modernist as a reason for keeping the status quo, with any changes to the lead being reverted with edit summaries like "needs to be settled at talk page" or "per talk". In the meantime, another editor Trishcan has entered the debate with an alternative lead that in my mind goes too far in another direction, going into excessive detail in the lead about the authorship question and choosing sides in favor of Elsa.
So, can we have a wider discussion, please, on the following five questions:
We have also had discussions here about whether "(Duchamp)" is an accurate disambiguator for the article title but I would prefer to keep that out of the RFC for now. For the record, my own answers to these questions are (1) yes, with no additional changes needed; (2) yes, (3) no, (4) yes, (5) no. (In more detail re 4 vs 5: We should teach the controversy rather than picking sides, per WP:NPOV. And I don't think it is currently the consensus of art scholarship that EvFL created it. Rather, there are still many scholars who hold to the Duchamp theory, and others who would more likely say that it's unclear rather than picking any alternative theory. So until such a consensus is formed I think saying so here is premature.) — David Eppstein ( talk) 21:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Hiplibrarianship and Coldcreation have found a new and uninteresting thing to edit-war about: whether a source labeled as a "blog" on seeallthis.com can be used as a reliable source. So in an effort to cut this off, I'd like to start a discussion here instead. Coldcreation's position appears to be that it's a blog and therefore unreliable. However, that's an overly strict reading of our policy. Per WP:RS "Some news outlets host interactive columns that they call "blogs", and these may be acceptable as sources if the writers are professional journalists or professionals in the field on which they write, and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." Seeallthis.com appears to be a Dutch art magazine with the usual level of editorial control that one would expect of an art magazine. However, it's a minor-enough magazine that we don't have an article on it. Can we maybe agree that (1) it's not inherently unreliable, but (2) because the same material is already covered by sources that are more well known and at least as reliable, there is no good reason to use this as a source? That is, even though (I believe) this source is not forbidden by policy, I think it would be preferable not to use it. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
180, not 90, shurely? -- A.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.186.140 ( talk) 21:21, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and "around it's axis" seems weird as well. Lisiate ( talk) 08:26, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
@ David Eppstein: There is one axis about which the object is rotated ninety degrees. Art historians are correct. (Like a coffee cup placed on its side). Coldcreation ( talk) 07:06, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's an interesting find, by a professor of art history at the University of Iowa, Craig Adcock:
A central part of the Fountain's geometry is its inversion—a rotation that changes it from a drain into a fountain. Moreover, its 90° rotation can be taken as a reference to the flipflops involved in four-dimensional rotation. As we have seen, such a rotation through the fourth dimension results in a left-right reversal and an inside–outside transformation. If an object such as the Fountain were so rotated, it would undergo, at least in metaphorical terms, a concavity-convexity transposition. [...] the Fountain can only be rotated ninety degrees; it cannot take a full demi-tour through the fourth dimension and thereby have its "female" concavity transformed into "male" convexity. (Source: Adcock, Craig. Duchamp's Eroticism: A Mathematical Analysis, Dada/Surrealism 16 (1987): 149-167).
Coldcreation ( talk) 16:28, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Right now, in the lead it is written: "In Duchamp's presentation the urinal's orientation was altered from its usual positioning." That is fine for the lead. In the main body: "reoriented it 90 degrees from its originally intended position of use"... per references. Fine! Coldcreation ( talk) 19:11, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Coldcreation ( talk) 19:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Coldcreation ( talk) 19:51, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
The animation is obviously not the rotation that David Eppstein has described, starting with his very first comment in this section. I mean, really obviously. XOR'easter ( talk) 20:20, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
he also rotated the form 180 degrees and mounted it on a pedestal
the urinal Fountain was exhibited rotated by 180 degrees
Consisting of a readymade urinal purchased from Fifth Avenue's J. L. Mott Iron Works, rotated 180 degrees, and tagged with a pseudonym
Notice for lurkers and future historians specializing in Wikipedia discussion pages, this topic now has a break-off section, 90° rotation, two sections below Randy Kryn ( talk) 14:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
@
Lisiate,
David Eppstein,
Coldcreation,
Bus stop,
XOR'easter,
Randy Kryn, and
Tamfang:
Here is a simple diagram presenting how one can turn an urinal into the Fountain by 90° or 180° rotation (images in the upper and the lower row, respectively) with appropriate choice of the rotation axis (fat red lines).
Best regards, CiaPan ( talk) 14:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Huh, that went further than I'd expected. Thanks everyone for clearing that up. (Personally I think 'tipped on it's back' would be how I'd describe it). Lisiate ( talk) 20:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
The lead states “Some scholars have suggested that the original work was by a female artist rather than Duchamp, but this is a minority view among historians”. Which sources in the article body support the claim that this is minority view? Might this be reworded to something more neutral? JeroenHoek ( talk) 18:09, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Art historians generally refer to the position of Duchamp's Fountain as rotated 90° from its originally intended position. Other solutions exist, such as a rotation of 180° (about a diagonal axis), but the 90° rotation is preferred for it's simplicity, clarity, beauty, and elegance. The rotation is important because it represents a modification of the ready-made object. By choosing the urinal, signing it, and repositioning it, the found object became art. The 90° rotation was sufficient to satisfy the artists goal. (Some historians consider only the un-altered objects to be readymades). The diagrams below exemplify why the vast majority of art historians speak correctly of a 90° transformation, with respect to Fountain:
For a more detailed description see the file pages at Commons. Coldcreation ( talk) 08:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Would you care to explain why?My intended answer, now obsolete was this:
Please, allow for some time, especially, since the pic has changed meanwhile, to compose an appropriate explanation, void of WP:OR and fitting to the artsy-fartsy imagery of serious geometry in higher dimensions, sketched in the thread above. As a first hint, I point to the misleading arc, labeled 90°, between two lines, insinuating to be Cartesian axes belonging to a rotated body, which they do not. BTW, the last, now new, pic in the triptychon seems to involve an additional 180° rotation. I am not sure if this makes up for 270° in art-circles.
And those sources above that mention 180 degrees are not WP:RELIABLE— Why not? Because they mention 180 degrees? (The Adcock source you insisted upon adding to the article was manifestly unreliable, as far as mathematics is concerned, since everything it does not copy out of an earlier popularization of mathematics is in error.)
There is no preferred frame of reference when observing a 3-dimensional work of art.Untrue. Frames of reference in which the floor is horizontal are preferred in a very practical sense, for example. It would be more justified to say that there are no preferred axes around which to rotate a work of art, and consequently, the statement "Duchamp ... reoriented it 90 degrees", which includes no specification of the axis of rotation, is meaningless. XOR'easter ( talk) 17:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
How is it possible that these people continue to believe that "tipping it backwards through the wall" completes the transformation? It doesn't. If you do it that way, you still have to rotate it 180 degrees (or, the same thing by relativity, walk around it) to get to the usual view. So the tipping part of it has saved you zero effort because the 180 degree rotation is still needed. Or, you could just do the 180 degree rotation in the correct axis to begin with. Alternatively, if you somehow believe that the walking around part should not be counted as a transformation (because reasons), then just put it down on the ground in its normal position and loom over it from behind and above, looking down on it. Voila! You now see the sculpture in its sculpture position with zero transformations. — David Eppstein ( talk) 18:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Not Coldcreation ( talk) 20:40, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
"artsy-fartsy"is as poorly defined as the notion of there being a proper frame of reference for a three-dimensional object. Bus stop ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The 2-D photo is not a work of art. Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen. The work represented is 3-D and thus meant to be seen from any angle. There is no addition of (or "plus") a 180° rotation in planes parallel to the floor required. Coldcreation ( talk) 11:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The 2-D photo is not a work of art.That seems rather to insult the entire art of photography. Checking the caption: "Marcel Duchamp Fountain, 1917, photograph by Alfred Stieglitz" ... clicking the link for Alfred Stieglitz... "who was instrumental over his fifty-year career in making photography an accepted art form." Huh. And since the original is lost, we ought to talk about the art we do have, oughtn't we?
Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen.No, but it is the view from which the object is seen, while reading this article. Any description that implies a frontal view which is inconsistent with the photo is a poor integration of picture and text, and is apt to be confusing to any reader who pauses to think about it. We don't have the freedom to walk around the photograph. (In the distance, I hear the cries of all the graphic designers who were told by their clients, "Just flip it in Photoshop so we can see the back!") To make a deliberate pun of the matter: the photograph establishes a preferred frame.
If the angle compared to what it is - a new and unmounted urinal - must be mentioned— I am more and more convinced that it isn't necessary. Without specifying an axis of rotation, giving a number of degrees is incomplete. An attempt to complete the description (e.g., "so that it lies flat on its wall-plate") ends up making the number of degrees redundant. If we actually try to be good expositors and integrate picture with text (while also benefiting readers with poor vision), we might eschew the digits altogether. For example, "The artist brought the urinal to his studio at 33 West 67th Street, reoriented it from its originally intended position of use to lie flat on its wall-plate instead, and signed it "R. Mutt 1917". In the frontal view photographed by Alfred Stieglitz, the water inflow pipe of the urinal, which is normally vertical, instead faces the viewer." XOR'easter ( talk) 17:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
@ XOR'easter: Your first point is the logical fallacy of appeal to probability: assuming all photographs must be artworks, since some are. Your argument lacks deductive validity since your premise is false. The second point is the proof by assertion fallacy: the Stieglitz view-point is the preferred reference frame is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction. Your third point is a slippery slope argument: that the inclusion of "90°" is likely to result in unintended consequences, and to avoid such a catastrophe, should not be included in the article. Coldcreation ( talk) 19:35, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Some sculptures do have a natural "front" side even if others do not. Regarding this particular sculpture, you don't see in Google images anyone photographing it from the "back". Gabn1 ( talk) 20:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
For Beatrice Wood, indeed, Fountain was not only the "Madonna of the Bathroom", but also comparable to "a Brancusi, with curved lines of genuine sensitivity", a formal logic perhaps informed by the fact that Fountain and a version of Princess X were both slated to appear at the 1917 New York Independents exhibition. But Fountain is also a "female object" according to another of Duchamp's randy quip. ( [4])
I read recently about the beauty of all side of Fountain. I will search for that text. Meanwhile, the above describes the types of 3-D objects that are appealing, or at least should be seen, from all sides, like a madonna. Who would dream of not rotating around a female object? Edit: Beatrice Wood's text dates to 1917. Indeed, from its inception, Fountain was seen for what it was, and was to become. Coldcreation ( talk) 20:43, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
This articles is and will continue to be based on reliable third-party published sources with a reputation for accuracy. The opinions of reliable authors are published, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted (or misinterpreted) primary source material for themselves: Per WP:RS Coldcreation ( talk) 23:34, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
@ Lisiate, David Eppstein, Coldcreation, Bus stop, XOR'easter, Randy Kryn, and Tamfang: Here is a simple diagram presenting how one can turn an urinal into the Fountain by 90° or 180° rotation (images in the upper and the lower row, respecively) with appropriate choice of the rotation axis (fat red lines).
Best regards, CiaPan ( talk) 14:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
the most important concept moving forward is to explainthe significance of choosing a new position, then why not simply describe the repositioning and the accompanying photograph in plain words, and then in the "Interpretations" section, go on to summarize the metaphors people have read into it about gender inversion and so forth? (I should say the conjectural repositioning, since all we have is a story to begin with, and it's entirely possible that Duchamp just saw it in the shop that way, because a guy at the iron works was afraid it would tip over if he stored it vertically, and Duchamp thought, "Hey, it looks different like that" — or, rather, Cela semble un peu nouvel! Choosing to take the unfamiliar and not make it ordinary is still a choice, after all.) XOR'easter ( talk) 15:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Rudolf E. Kuenzli states, in Dada and Surrealist Film (1996), after describing how various readymades are presented or displayed: "This decontextualization of the object's functional place draws attention to the creation of its artistic meaning by the choice of the setting and positioning ascribed to the object." He goes on to explain the importance of naming the object (ascribing a title). At least three factors came into play: the choice of object, the title, and how it was modified, if at all, from its 'normal' position or location. By virtue of placing a urinal on a pedestal in an art exhibition, the illusion of an artwork was created. Rudolf E. Kuenzli, Dada and Surrealist Film, MIT Press, 1996, p. 47. Coldcreation ( talk) 08:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
jesus christ yall he just put it on its side, yall sound like the artist pharisees that wouldnt let him submit this stolen stolen idea in the first place — Preceding
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Hotdurger (
talk •
contribs)
06:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
DavidEppstein the most recent edits correcting the history are being removed by David Eppstein, who has removed other ones on this subject also. There is now conclusive proof that the work was created by F-L, including the letter from Duchamp himself and that she was using the alias Richard Mutt for some time before sending the work to Duchamp. Further the use of found objects was a key aspect of her work and not of Duchamps at the time. Eppstein states that this is a 'minority view amongst scholars'. It might have been once but, speaking as someone with connections to the arts, unlike Eppstein, the history has now moved on & wiki should reflect that. To rely only on past research, and research that was it has to be said from a patriarchal reading of the history, is highly problematic. The correct origins of the work are now part of academic curriculums, collections have adjusted their archives to reflect the origins and the majority view within the arts supports the facts around F-L's involvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Do let me know whose name I have not spelt correctly. I'm afraid the view that because a lot of papers claim Duchamp created the work is not reliable proof that he did either. Let me detail this; the view that Duchamp created it is based on zero evidence except for one story he told, later, that is seen aa a further attempt to 'play' with the works history (connecting it to a popular cartoon of the time). Art history is full of papers that discredit the work of female artists or fail to include them & that has to now be taken into account when looking for facts around any contested work. Duchamp has no history of working with found objects at the time, F-L did. Duchamp had no interest in plumbing objects at the time, F-L did, creating very similar works prior to fountain. Duchamp was not prevented from submitting to the exhibition as he was male & therefore had no need to use an alias, F-L was and therefore often submitted works using her alias of Richard Mutt. The work was sent to the exhibition from a city and a person with whom Duchamp had had no face-to-face contact with for sometime prior to it arriving. F-L on the other hand refers to her plumbing object works in correspondence prior to 1917. F-L's work 'God' serves as another part of the proof that she created fountain. Given that an alias was used and despite the fact that it was the one F-L had been using for some time, it is not 'history' to simply stick to one unsupported version when new evidence and a new reading of the history is established. Since the works first exhibition in 1917 there have been a large number of papers, books, articles on it of course but to continue to deny that they were created, and still are to some extent, within a culture that is based on patriarchal attitudes is not history but a refusal to accept the progression of it. Taking recent papers most are by students with a limited knowledge of the subject (overviews of Duchamp or Dada) but of the ones written by acknowledged experts on Duchamp and Dada all now accept that F-L created the work. User:JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 06:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
please do stop removing edits that correct the problematic history of this piece. There is now conclusive proof that the piece was by F-L (see her page on wiki for other examples of her working with found objects, including items of plumping, prior to the exhibition of fountain). This is now the widely accepted origins of the work and academic texts are being updated, catalogues & archives in galleries corrected and curriculums changed. Arguments put forward state that there was no proof that F-L created the work but there is also no proof that Duchamp did either. There is however significant proof now that F-L did and as part of a series of works. A forthcoming biography will detail the research in full. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I thought I would include a link to this substantive discussion around fountain which contains numerous references to the work of established experts, galleries and friends of both artists. It needs to be included in the main page & I will try to do that but as any readers will see there is a lot that could be referenced. http://www.thejackdaw.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Duchamp-Fountain-II1.pdf User: JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 11:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
in reply to the most recent comments above. I did cite an extensive article (9) which also references all of the key sources of fact and research on this matter. It is often hard to know who editors are of course so when comments like 'there is no consensus in the arts' it is not possible to know from what position they are speaking. It is now widely accepted that F-L was responsible for the work and galleries that own one of the later versions reference this in exhibitions. The attribution has been added to most of the major academic sources used in teaching this area of art. I note that editors mention an earlier consensus but also that none of them seem to want to discuss the additional research that either wasn't referenced at that time or has been published since. As such it does appear not that there is an attempt to ensure the page is factual but rather only that it maintains the assertion that it was created by Duchamp & even if some refuse to accept all of the facts as discussed in citation 9 there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and never has been, that proves Duchamp was responsible, save for one story he told some 40 years later and that is proved to be unreliable in said research. At the very least the page should now reflect the proof that the work is not by Duchamp. Of the 5 or so leading experts on Dada and Duchamp all accept that he did not originate the work. As I have stated already I would ask editors to read the research cited (9) and note all of the sources cited in it User: JrFedit —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
ref. the comment from freshacconci about my comment on sexist distortion. It is actually himself that I am referring to as he has a history of removing corrective edits on the work of female artists. I note that he sees this as an attack but I would counter that by saying that denying female artists the recognition they deserve is an attack not only on said artists but on art history, and wiki itself. I have attempted, repeatedly, to discuss the various edits and pages with him but he refuses to do so in any detail. There is a growing concern in the arts that wiki is a site controlled by men who remove attempts to correct histories, including on subjects such as classical music and science where they're have been extensive wiki-editing events that have then seen their work removed without good reason. Again, the sources have been cited, and they have been removed. How can any consensus be arrived at when almost all of the research on this matter is ignored? I say 'almost all' because apart from some very old articles and books even most of the ones already cited on the page cast doubt on Duchamp and several argue that it was a work by F-L.
User: JrFedit —Preceding
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14:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Hesperian Nguyen: All I would add in reply here is that the Jackdaw article discussed a large number of sources and logistical facts that were not already part of the page. Further your comment about my edits on other pages continues to show that whatever ref’s are provided on edits the opinions of ‘more senior’ editors takes precedent even over artists themselves or the work of highly respected academics, foundations and in catalogue raisonne's . ‘Sloppy’, whilst a needlessly insulting word, I will admit that in the first edits I attempted on other pages it did take me a week or so to work out some of the methods used for inserting citations for example. The ref.’s to F-L using Richard Mutt as an alias are not new and are contained in numerous papers that have emerged since the expansion of research into her in the 1980’s. Duchamp himself mentions that she used the name ‘Richard’ in archived letters. The monograph on F-L’s work clearly shows that she was working with found objects for some years before Duchamp, and before he used the term ‘ready mades’ (the first use of this term by him in print is in a 1916 letter to his sister, as outlined in the MoMA archives however as another ref. mentioned below indicates he did not invent the term). As for sources various aspects of this are detailed in Gammel, Jones (Irrational Modernism) & Beagles, as well as in more recent papers available online. Rather than continuing to dismiss fact based research please read the detailed reply to this ongoing issue about the research on fountain at the end of these other comments to individual editors.
other comment (the user name is not visible to me for some reason);
F-L’s use of found objects pre-dates that of Duchamp, not to mention that F-L is widely acknowledged to have been a significant influence on Duchamp and others involved in Dada. It had been part of her work in various forms throughout her activity in the arts. Other artists were also using found objects and the invention of ‘ready made’ as a term by Duchamp, and how it is being used here, is indicative of the problem of male artists, intentionally or not, colonising techniques by naming them and by having more access to profile than female artists. My comment ‘at the time’ refers to the time when F-L was using found objects.
David E; edits by MelanieN and SerialNumber54129 occurred after my comments about male editors so I am unsure why they are included but it does seem obvious that there is an attempt to mislead by doing this. Much of your comment is classic gas lighting and does not take into account that I was referring to clearly patriarchal distortion of art history in general and how it is the basis for lots of wiki pages. I would add that whilst its often not possible to know whether any editor identifies as male, female or neither, some of the attitdes, across multiple pages, do tend to suggest an opposition to correcting patriarchal distortions of art history. It's possible that women could stand against that in a similar way but I doubt it.
yamla: its not that I failed on the talk page, its that none of the other editors discussed the research or the various points put forward when I commented. If you read through the talk page there is no discussion before that comment. What there is is defensive attacks that repeatedly refuse to indicate in depth knowledge of the range of research on the subject and merely dismiss what is now the widely accepted research. Rather than continuing to dismiss fact based research please read the detailed reply to this ongoing issue about the research on fountain at the end of these other comments to individual editors.
Basic points on Fountain and this ongoing issue of attribution; Not since the 1980’s, when research into F-L’s work, including her connection to Fountain, has the consensus in the art world been that Duchamp created the original work. Further prior to that there has never been consensus that he did as there was never any corroborated proof of the identity of the artist. This is an important example of how, without any proof, patriarchal bias and position allows a male artist, Duchamp in this instance, to be assumed to have created a work with, at the very least, far less proof that he created it than there is for a female artists having done so. This issue sits at the core of the patriarchal systems across all subjects areas that have allowed credit to be given to men over the decades without any proof of it and how those assumed histories eventually become the ‘accepted’ history by some. In this example there is not one single authorised source or catalogue that ascribes the original work to Duchamp without question that has been published since the 80s. As I would like to think most editors on art pages know there is a system of attribution that involves the definitions; by, from the school of, from the studio of, after, ascribed to and disputed. Where there are disagreements it is the catalogue raisonne that is regarded as a pivotal reference. All versions of Duchamp’s are archived at the Kandinsky Library of the Centre Pompidou. Not one of these claims that the original fountain was ‘by’ Duchamp and since the revised 1997 edition the original work has been officially referred to as either disputed or with the explanation that whilst later versions were produced from his studio the original is not proven to be by Duchamp.
Concerning the term ready-made that is used in defence of Duchamp by some editors, ascribing an incorrect timeline for its use, the following passage from ‘Ready Made Century’ (Daniels) states that ‘Bicycle Wheel’ which some editors claim to prove his use of the technique and term in 1913 (it is not a readymade but a assemblage as it consists of two parts put together by Duchamp) “Accordingly, it is not classified as a readymade by Duchamp in his Boîte-en-valise. In later interviews he always stressed that when he first mounted the Bicycle Wheel in his studio, it had no connection to the term readymade, which he would only hear later in the US. “The word did not exist—the thought did not exist…”
The Guardian article exposes the problems around Duchamp, some years after F-L had passed and almost 40 years after Fountain was exhibited, starting to claim the work as his in the 1950’s, though he only did this once in a conversation that included a blatant untruth that he purchased the urinal from Mott Works despite the fact that it did not manufacture that model of urinal at the time. There are other important points in this text, such as that the handwriting of ‘R. Mutt’ matches F-L’s used in her poetic works and differs significantly from any by Duchamp. There are also (in said article and more detailed research) points about aspects of the style & meaning of the work being at odds with anything else Duchamp created but central to much of F-L's work. The extensive research is also contained in the mentioned Glyn Thompson and Julian Spalding 2015 exhibition A Lady’s Not a Gent’s, aspects of it in Gamell’s book on F-L and also in ‘Stranger Than We Can Imagine: Making Sense of the Twentieth Century' by John Higgs. The problem here is that a small number of editors on wiki are deciding what the consensus is in very stark contrast to the reality of that consensus outside of wiki. I understand why allowing editors to remain anonymous can be useful but when it comes to significant and important issues around misattribution or prejudice in the arts (or any subject) the problem is that it's not possible to know whether those editing have in-depth knowledge of the subject, have kept up with the research or indeed have a problematic attitude generally and I would say that some such attitudes are obvious in this discussion (inc. gas lighting, sexism, misrepresentation of the sequence of edits etc). I note in the discussion on this page from 2018 that some of those arguing against changing the page offer no proof whatsoever that Duchamp created the work & it has been the same in this more recent discussion. There is no proof that he did yet wiki editors insist the work is attributed to him and any doubt only discussed as a side-theory. Given the extensive research that is now available (and much has been since the 80’s, almost 40 years ago) the continued insistence that the work be credited to Duchamp on an important public information site is very clearly part of the refusal of some to accept the patriarchal bias it represents.
It should also be noted here that the estate of Duchamp does not consider the original Fountain to have been by him, only the copies. To put all of this another way; given that there is no corroborated proof or fact based research (fact based as in research that looks at logistical aspects, earlier work, photographs, letters and papers from the time etc) that Duchamp created Fountain but that since the 1980’s at least there has been more and more evidence that Duchamp did not create it, what would it take for that to be properly reflected in how the work is referred to on the entire wiki page? On that research the view put forward on wiki, and that seems to be being allowed to remain no matter what, is that there is controversy around the work, and further that one of 3 possible women might have created it. That was the widely held view for some years after research into feminist art history, and into this work and the women mentioned began, but it hasn’t been for some years now. We aren’t talking 2 or 3 years but almost 40. Nowhere else in the arts discusses the work in the way wiki does.
One other way to look at all of this (and this goes for other examples in the arts where the work of female artists is either ignored, suppressed or dismissed) is that if the page properly reflected the doubt around the work by, for example, not referring to it as 'by Duchamp' that would not diminish the work or Duchamp’s reputation at all but it would allow students and other interested parties a further source of information that fits in with the widely held view and expands on the important move within the arts to reflect the feminist research that has taken place since the 1970's (to clarify; feminist as in attempting to fully research the role of previously unknown, ignored or suppressed female artists) As it stands reading this wiki page, and lots of others on the site connected to the arts, is like stepping back in time to an era before feminism and feminist research.
On a set of scales the evidence for not Duchamp & for F-L far outweighs the narrow evidence, based entirely on supposition, for his involvement. All of the established facts around both artists, the era and the logistical aspects (facts not opinions such as it being mailed from where F-L was living, her use of various plays on the sound of R.Mutt & its connections to german words) support that he didn’t or couldn’t have created the work. All other assertions are opinions based on the old assumption that he created the work but without any proof.
When it comes to the view that significant changes to the page should be agreed upon on the talk page first perhaps some of you will reflect on the fact that this hasn’t worked before, not only on this post but on others attempting to correct problematic content on art & artworks. I'm referring here to major articles where proven facts have been removed and unproven ones allowed to remain. If current editors want other, perhaps newer editors, or those with more direct, up to date connection to the research, to be involved, shutting down attempts to correct problematic content is not ideal. I accept my initial attempt to edit the page was activism based but the system has not worked for this work or for 1000's of other wiki pages (classical composer pages where 18 year old male students are listed but attempts to edit in significant female composers are constantly removed, Sound Art page which is, frankly, something of a joke seeing as how it includes mostly male musicians (some who never use the term Sound Art of have it ascribed to their work) but again where significant female artists are removed or not listed)
Wiki of course allows anyone to edit pages and so there is always going to be an issue around the accuracy of contentious works as a very small number of editors decide on what should be allowed to be stated as fact, even when such views are unsupported by the research. I am sure some editors involved in this discussion, as they have stated, accept that there is doubt and controversy and yet the unsupported credit given to Duchamp remains (and the page is now locked to prevent others from editing unless approved by certain other editors). That can only be seen as patriarchal bias and therefore adds to the widely held view that wiki is actively complicit in the ongoing issue of sexism across various subjects. There are numerous examples across wiki of carefully researched and cited refs being removed based on nothing but the power of some editors to do so and that is a significant problem. The only way to counter such bias is to ensure that where there is at least proof of doubt about a work or of the involvement of female artists that that is fully included and that unsupported attribution of work is not allowed to lead and dominate an article. I don't expect any of the proof & research mentioned to be discussed here so i'm stepping out of this issue now. If editors are ok with wiki being incorrect or biased then that is up to them but students / younger art interested people, perhaps without access to large libraries or the time to go into all the research deserve to have access to sites that keep up with the research and do not reinforce problematic attribution of work User: JrFedits — Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFedit ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
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in reply; unfortunately this editor is blatantly refusing to accept any of the research, either on Duchamp or on F-L, the catalogue raissone or the Duchamp Foundation itself. There is a large amount of research on F-L now & on the attribution to Duchamp. Again, there is nothing in any book on Duchamp or paper on fountain that contains any factual evidence that he created the work. This is not 'opinion' but hard research around such things as her use of 'Richard' and 'Mutt', the postal address the work was sent from etc. Insulting me or any editor doesn't detract from this editors arrogance and refusal to acknowledge facts or highly respected research.
It's also worth pointing out that the French wiki page ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontaine_(Duchamp) ), and most other international versions, do not attribute the work to Duchamp in the same way anymore, because they reflect only actual research that has ever been done on the piece (prior to 1979 there was no research on it that didn't start from the assumption that he did based only on patriarchy and his false statement in the 50's). Instead it says "Fontaine (in English: Fountain ) is a ready-made by Marcel Duchamp or Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven" & goes on to reference some of the research repeatedly removed from this wiki page. ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
everything I have stated is based on the research that is contained in numerous books & papers. All you seem to do is refuse to accept research whilst sticking to a version of the story that has had even less research done on it, whilst throwing insults around. I forgot to add another key fact; Duchamp has stopped exhibiting and creating physical works at that point, working only with text, and did not start again until some years after 'Fountain'. ( User talk:JrFedit)
all of which are some years after Fountain, except for The Large Glass which was worked on but not shown until 1923. As is included in most of the key books on Duchamp he had stopped exhibiting objects, except for textbased works (including L.H.O.O.Q.), for some years between 1914/15 & the 1920's & this is also included as a supporting piece of evidence in the research into F-L & Fountain since then 1980's. Editors who refuse to acknowledge the research, the findings of the Catalogue Raissone and the Duchamp estate / foundation need to have a think about their motives for constantly refusing to accept any of it, and its interesting that the same editors do similar things on other pages where there have been attempts to correctly include female artists User:JrFedit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.207.142.205 ( talk) 17:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
well, i've been involved in positive activism & curation within the arts in terms of female artists for a few decades now so i'm not going to take any suggestions from someone who has an edit history that involves conflict of interest & other problematic behaviour and who shows obvious signs of sexism in their selective understanding of research and refusal to accept any of the more recent research that contradicts their biased views. I've also worked on projects with the Duchamp archives and estate, on a project to highlight the important work of female dada-ist artists, the work of several of whom Duchamp tried to suppress, as indeed did others at the time. So far my experience of editing on wiki, which I have done on a few pages, all about key female artists, has been one of constant refusal by male editors to allow properly referenced edits and to insult and dismiss the work of said artists. There are 10's of 1000's of pages that are blatantly problematic & there comes a point where it becomes obvious not that work needs to be done but that problematic work is constantly been done. You can't keep defending a system that excludes some research but allows only other research, or indeed opinions not based on any research (no research has ever proved Duchamp created the work). user:JrFedit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.207.142.205 ( talk) 21:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I have, if you bothered to read things carefully, already admitted that it has taken me awhile to get used to certain aspects of wiki editing. The 'revision warring' I dispute as I attempted to correctly adjust the page to reflect the wide ranging consensus on this work. The warring came from others refusing to accept that or discuss the various items of research. Again, if you bothered to read the history you would see that all of the research has been mentioned inc. the research that has been removed from the page despite being published widely. You claim I have provided 0 usable citations but the majority of the points I have made are already in research referenced on the page. I have mentioned the catalogue raisonne, which is the definitive source on the work of an artist. I have mentioned & ref. the French wiki page that more accurately reflects the research. The wider point here is that it is obvious to me that even if a letter from Duchamp was found saying 'Else did it' with a photo of her taking Fountain to be shipped you would argue against it. It doesn't matter the number of times the research is mentioned you refuse to accept it. Seriously, google F-L & get reading. There are numerous papers available as pdf's for example & I attempted to get some of these included on the page but they were rejected & removed & the page locked to all but 'approved editors'. Do the research. Doing anything else is complicity in the sexist distortion of art history. JrFedit ( talk) 22:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
the 'reliable sources' do not support the firm belief that Duchamp created the work. As already mentioned in the art world the definitive source is the catalogie raissone & it does not list Fountain as being 'by' Duchamp. The 1997 edition lists it as 'attributed to' and the more recent edition states only that his studio produced later replica's. To anyone outside of the small cabal of editors attempting to dismiss the more recent research the locking of the main page, the constant dismissal of research here, the removal of citations on the main page & now this request to archive this 'pointless discussion' are all part of the problem. I am not at my base so this is only a partial list but here are some of the key texts that contain the various elements of the research that supports that Duchamp did not create the original work & that F-L did. Again, this particular version of Wiki is in the vast minority, as almost all others correctly reflect the research now &, as on the French version, use both artists as possible creators of the work or F-L for the original & Duchamp for the copies.
Catalogie Raissone Marcel Duchamp (1997 & later revisions) Duchamp - various letters (archive) F-L - archive (held at the Uni of M-Land) William Carlos Williams - letters (archive) & published autobiography & paper by A. Allkins Gammel - Baroness Elsa: Gender, Dada, and Everyday Modernity—A Cultural Biography (revised edition) Gammel - ‘Body Sweats’ (2016) Jones - ‘Irrational Modernism’ (2004) Jones - Postmodernism and the En-gendering of Marcel Duchamp (1994) Steinke - ‘Holy Skirts’ (2005) Franklin - Women in Dada (1998) Gale ‘Dada & Surrealism’ (1997) Hemus - ‘Dada’s Women’ (2009) Smith / Watson - ‘Interfaces: Women, Autobiography, Image, Performnce (2005) Gammel - “Breaking the Bonds of Discretion: Baroness Elsa and the Female Sexual Confession.” (1995) Gammel - “’She Strips Naked’ (2003) Gammel - “Taking off her Chemise in Public: New York Dada, Irrational Modernism, and the Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven” (2005) Gammel / Zelazo. "’Harpsichords Metallic Howl’ (2011) Goddard - ‘The perils of Baroness Elsa. (2005) Lappin - “Dada Queen in the Bad Boys' Club’ (2004) McKible - ‘Life is Real and Life is Earnest’ (2005) Scott - ‘The Art of Madness.’ Werth - ‘Mama-Dada’ (1999) Wetzsteon - ‘The Baroness of Greenwich Village’ (1996) Beagles - ‘Putting Dada Flesh on the Bone’ (2006) Various - ‘The Politics of Cultural Mediation: Baroness Elsa Von Freytag-Loringhoven and Felix Paul Greve’ (2003) Reilly - ‘Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven’ (Women’s Art Journal, 1997) Maaswinkel - ‘The Enigma of the Urinal’ (2017) Czaki - ‘The Baroness is all Hands’ (2015) Giepert - published letter on the Baroness (2016) & ‘Who Did It?’ (Jackdaw)
JrFedit ( talk) 07:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I wish to highlight the following entry in the Origin section:
Whether Mr Mutt with his own hands made the fountain or not has no importance. He CHOSE it. He took an ordinary article of life, placed it so that its useful significance disappeared under the new title and point of view – created a new thought for that object. [2]
In a number of sources the entirety of these are pages not attributed to Louis Norton. Instead the attribute The Richard Mutt Case to Beatrice Wood and the essay below – there is also a clear page break –, Buddha of the Bathroom, to Louis Norton. Note the detailed Tate Modern entry that mentions Woods biography: [5] https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duchamp-fountain-t07573.
Hesperian Nguyen ( talk) 01:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Not sure if this contains new evidence, which is why I’m adding the link here: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/oct/15/conceptualist-art-fountain-is-fake-say-historians-marcel-duchamp Breston ( talk) 13:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)