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Victorian RUles is a relatively minor and small variation of football. I suggest that another image should be used for people trying to understand the bigger international variations like Rugby(both codes), soccer and American football.
06:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
13:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
I think that that would be a good round-up.
04:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
-- Raresaturn 11:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC) While the compliment is appreciated, it's really not neccasary. Everyone knows that our great game originated in Victoria before spreading to the rest of the continent, so calling it 'Victorian Rules' is a bit redundant and somewhat confusing. At first I thought you were referring to some obscure code that originated in Victorian London, rather than the Australian game.
Australian Rules very obviously comes from Victoria. The variation is a Vicotrian variation. I am not questioning that its name is Aussie Rules, just that it is a game whose rules variation originated from Victoria like the two rugby codes originated from Rugby school, and soccer originated from its annagram association football. All the best.
06:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
I wouldn't waste my time with this anti-Aussie rules troll. Take a look at the Australian rules football attendance records and compare them with rugby in Australia and it's no wonder you are jealous of Aussie rules' continued growth and increased standing. R o gerthat Talk 11:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Rugby League started at Rugby school and not at Yorkshire. The split-away governing body than started to make rule changes that differentiated it from the IRB code, but it is inarguable to say that it did not start at Rugby school. I beieve you have the wrong conception of Rugby League. It was just a professional code of the game that over time developed its own distinct rules. Neither Rugby Union or Rugby today really resemble the nature of game when it was first codified.
11:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
I am not arguing that that it does not call itself Aussie Rules, what I am saying is that it is a distinctly Victorian version of the game. To call it an Australian variation as opposed to this would be misleading for non-Australians who do not understand the regional nature of both Rugby and Aussie Rules. Nor am I disputing that it is more popular as you mistakenly concluded and decided to leave on my discussion page. I just feel that to refer to it as a Victorian variety is better for international users who are trying to understand the differences in Australian football sports. All the best
13:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
Now please do not be silly, it is hardly played in Sydney etc., to say it has travelled the breadth of Australia is an exaggeration. But my point is that it is a Victorian variation of football, not an Australian variation. As I will reiterate, it is misleading for non-Australians visiting the page to say that it is an Australian variation because it is simply no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby League.
03:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Ah Grant65, once again you make sweaping comment that are not factual. Aussie Rules is not "popular" in Sydney, nor in most of NSW. Also the night we qualified for German 2006, thousands of people filled Sydney's streets until the next morning. This has never happened for Aussie Rules or Rugby league in Sydney. And many people in Sydney would totally understand the term "Victorian Rules' Tancred 06:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh come on. Please. One decent t.v. rating does not amount to considerable interest etc., it is hardly played in Sydney. It is not really an Australian game per se, though it is played exclusively by Australians. It is a Victorian variety of football.
All the best
04:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
-- Raresaturn 11:38, 4 March 2006 (UTC) I lived in Sydney for 3 years and never once heard the term 'Victorian Rules'. The term simply does not exist.
I have protected this article because of the edit wars. So use talk page to find a solution. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 17:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
05:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
What is being said is that is a Victorian variety of football like how there were Rugby varieties of football and soccer being the acronym for association rules. It is no more an Australian variety of football than Rugby League. Therefore I think it is misleading for non-Australians, to refer to it as an Australian variety of football because it is both historically and presently a predominately Victorian type of football as opposed to Rugby in the northern states. It has nothing to do with whether Australia was a continent or not, just emphasis that it both originated in Victoria, and is still a regional game in Australia even today. Therefore I feel to refer to it as an Australian variety of football is a little incoherent, factually incorrect, especially when there is a more apt manner to refer to it as, Victorian football.
Therefore I am unreservedly for the change of the name to a Victorian variety of football.
11:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.200.50
I feel that it is a Victorian variety of football and should be referred to as such in the disputed entence "Australian and Irish varieties"
11:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
I was talking very specifically about it being referred to a "Victorian variety" in the sentence disputed. I am not disputing it being called Australian Rules, please don't count me there, I just felt that in that sentence Victorian variety is more apt, as my understanding of the dispute is.
12:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
This is largely about weather the game can be referred to as 'Australian'. Perhaps other arguments have been put forward aswell but it has been specifically suggested that the game is victorian because it was invented in the colony of victoria before that colony was part of Austalia. Pointing out that the colony of victoria was part of Australia is more than relevant. Please view the comments left on my talk page Factoid Killer 09:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand the problem. I agree that Victorian football sounds like a reference to the Victorian era. I don't understand why Australian Rules Football can't be called 'Australian Rules Football'. Even if the federation didn't exist at that time, it does now and the AFL have the right to choose their own name. I'd object to rugby league being called a Yorkshire form of rugby. GordyB 21:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone apart from Licinius/60.225.202.61 think that the current picture is not the best one available? I have searched, but haven't found anything better in illustrating football games in general, than the current one. As I have said before, a better solution is that we get someone with the technical ability to do a collage like the one at the top of (e.g.) World War II. But until (and if) we have a better pic, I think the current one should stand. Grant65 | Talk 18:26, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It would be more appropriate to have an image that better represents the multitude of football codes or at least what the majority of ppl in the world consider to be football. I'd be happy for someone to replace it with a better suited picture however, the current picture is way better than having nothing at all. I am totally against the image being removed without replacement. Factoid Killer 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I did not really make my argument very coherent, so I shall put it here as succintly as possible.
I believe the heading "Australian and Irish variations" should be changed to "games descended from Melbourne club rules and Gaelic rules". This is in line with the previous entries "games descended from rugby school rules" and "games descended from fa rules".
I feel that this is a better representation of not only the Victorian game but also a clearer outline of its support within Australia. I also feel that it is more inline with how the article was presented.
All the best
08:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius 08:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Licinus,
That is not what you were saying at all when you sent me this message...
'The Victorian Rules folk ar trying to claim that Aussie Rules is an Australian variety of the game when it is very distinctly a Victorian variation of the football and was codified in Victoria many years before the beginning of Australia. If you share the same opinion I would love for you to come to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Football and give your opinion.
All the best
03:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Licinius '
I'm a Queenslander and a Rugby League/Union supporter. In fact I don't care much for aussie rules at all but trying to tamper with a page out of pure hatred for the game makes you no better than those British Rugby fans who were trying to have the Rugby League article removed through claims that it was a minor sport. Aussie rules is more popular in Australia and always will be. That's because of the religious nature of its following. Also because the game transcends gender and socio-economic barriers. Rugby League will always be the greatest game on earth but it will never be the most popular.
Factoid Killer 14:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes there are many reasons I dispute the right of the game to be called "Australian", but that is it. That is the disputed piece. I am not great arguer. haha
and I am not trying to have the AFL removed factoid killer, please be reasonable and thnk about the actually disputed piece. Grant never mentioned it and continually accused me of motives I never had.
Grant I do not care about them or dispute the AFL is the most supported league in Australia. But it is a Victorian game and it is supported in the Southern states.
06:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Victoria may be dominant, (modulo the latest grandfinal) but the sport is wider than Victoria. Very strong in SA and WA and a reasonable following in QLD, NT. (And Tas, I think.) Some following in NSW, and growing. It's arguable that the AFL is really just the VFL plus a few teams taken from/exported to other states, but the rules of the game are national, not Victorian. Regards, Ben Aveling 10:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Licinius, this "southern" thing is nonsense. Australian rules has been the dominant code in the NT for generations. The support for rugby league is far more limited, in geographical terms. And since there are no other major football codes that originated in Australia, I can't see the problem with Australian rules being referred to as an "Australian code" etc. Unless you think Victoria is somehow not part of Australia. Grant65 | Talk 05:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Well Grant, despite your attempts to malign me, you are correct. It should be referred to as a game descended from Melbourne Rules. That is clear enough and in line with the presentation of the article. Though it is debatable that it deserves a mention as a game descended from Rugby rules or miscellaneous due to the fact that it is a relatively minor Southern Australian regional game that was pretty much a copy of rugby and Sheffield Rules, (unlike the international codes of Rugby, the American football and of cause soccer) for the present moment I feel that it should be "Games descended from Melbourne Rules ....".
Please stop trying to attribute sentiments that I do not have, Grant, you have accused me of bad faith from the beginning and it reflects on your bias.
To call it a game descended from Australian variety is as silly to call it a game descended from Oceania variety, Australasian variety or outhern hemisphere variety. It is very distinctly a Victorian game and as such it should be referred to as Melbourne Rules.
12:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Licinius said: 'To call it a game descended from Australian variety is as silly to call it a game descended from Oceania variety, Australasian variety or outhern hemisphere variety'... Aren't we getting a little petty here? Why leave it at melbourne. Whoever wrote down the rules must have been in a specific suburb of melbourne! Even a suburb is pretty general, why not write down the address in which the original rules were written down. Why not call it 10 launceston dve, St Kilda, Melbourne, Victoria, Australian rules? Why stop there? Lets get the exact GPS coordinates! Factoid Killer 12:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Does "Aussie Rules" deserve its own heading in this specific section at all? This whole page is far too Victorian and needs to be completely be re-edited by someone with a clear perspective, good record and proven integrity. AFL has far more prominence that it should rightly have on a page dedicated to "football". In the interests of more coherent descriptions, I feel that this page should be rewritten to put the different codes of football in a better perspective. It is not good enough to say that the "AFL" game is a generic picture of football from the era because modern football was mostly an English creation(all codes). I see plenty of better pictures throughout the page that could be used instead of it.
In the specific line, I personally feel it is indisputable not to refer to it as "Australian" per se because it is simply not an Australian game any more than Rugby. The heading I feel should be a clear indicator of the origins of the networked games just as the others are. Also the games from the AFL are more than superfluous and if it was done with the precedents created in the AFL section, there would be far too many games under both the Rugby and soccer areas.
Also there is far too much on the origins of AFL compared to the games of higher precedence like Rugby, American football and soccer. Remember people this is not just an Australian page, it is for all people who speak English who wish to know about "football".
13:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
I have to admit, I was very surprised to arrive at this page and see it dominated by Aussie Rules. I agree with replacing the image with something more appropriate. I know the victorians have that major inferiority complex to get over but this isn't their page. Factoid Killer 13:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to chip in with my opinion on the use of the term football.
English has become an international language, and millions of people, regardless of their mother tongue, speak it for a variety of uses, such as surfing the 'net. In most languages other than english, I assume, football is that sport which is played with the feet. Usually this word is not translated, but rather, adapted phonetically to the speakers' native language; for example, in spanish: futbol. I think that the correct terminology for this sport should be football. However, in my opinion, it should always be qualified with the soccer term in parenthesis to avoid confusion.
That's a good start JPD. I would like to see a bigger/clearer portion representing American/Canadian football. And given the different colour balances, maybe the whole thing would look better in black and white? Grant65 | Talk 00:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The introduction of the article should state, in absolute black and white, the different forms of football. The opening phrase could be a list of all football types, including:
Thoughts on this? R o gerthat Talk 11:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Aussie Rules, Gaelic and International are all relatively small games compared to the NFL, international rugby of both codes and most of all soccer. Should they realistically have more than a minor page dedicated to them?...
I am sorry, I am new to this program. I meant a smaller area of the page as compared to the major sports in order to better certify their relative size compared to the codes I mentioned.
Do the arguments above make sense to anyone?...
13:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Surely this montage needs futsol which is much bigger than AFL or Gaelic, a better differentiation between Rugby Union and Rugby League(the scrum is irrelevant in League and their are many differences of style between both forms of Rugby). To be honest, it is a bit much to have AFL or Gaelic in it. What is wrong with the people here? We need more Europeans and Americans to contribute to this. AFL is a joke compared to the major codes. What the hell is going on here?
13:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
The scrum isn't irrelevant in league but Rugby League and Rugby considered as separate sports are also much bigger sports than Aussie Rules. Factoid Killer 13:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, you need a pretty severe bias to think Rugby and League should be grouped as 1 sport and then list Aussie Rules and International rules as separate sports. This is the level of Inferiority Complex we're dealing with here. Factoid Killer 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
There aren't any pictures of Futsal, either, but even if there were it would be harder to justify considering it separately from soccer.
Re: Factoid killer,
The scrum might not be irrelevant(arguably) but a scrum with breakaways is not Rugby League.
More and more people are seeing that the Victorian football supporters have a strange attitude to this which is not constructive to wikipedia.
"Aussie Rules" is no more an Australian variety of football than Rugby or Union and they seem to refuse to accept it. The montage, as J is me pointed out, is a farce.
Grant seems to be unable to make any sound argument above the AFL is the most popular League in Australia as far as I can understand which is at best only mildly relevant, and now a whole host of contributors are surely just taking the piss. I second fellow shire boy, the man from oz and say that we need to employ the services of a non Australian administrator interested in all forms of football to sort this out reasonably. All the best to all contributors
05:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
OK, let me repeat my opening comment: "The opening phrase could be a list of all football types, including:". Including is the key word. Now read the start of this argument again. R o gerthat Talk 11:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting how Licinius, "Man from Oz" and "J is me" all make the very same mistake with their signature. If these "individuals" all try to vote in a poll, I will report it to administrators as a suspected case of sockpuppets. Along with any others I suspect of abusing user registration.
Pippu, you're right, I'm from Perth.
I bet the kids in Bomber or Lions jumpers in strongholds of the game like Hobart, Alice Springs, the Tiwi Islands, Papua New Guinea and Nauru couldn't give a fat rat's clacker where their game originated. And they certainly don't call it "AFL", "Victorian rules", "Melbourne rules" or any such name. Australian rules football is the full name recogised by both those who follow it (who outnumber the followers of any other sport in Australia) and by non-followers in other countries. If the detractors of Australian rules have a coherent argument against the international historical significance of Australian rules, I have yet to hear it. I will argue with them when they come with something other than the fact the game originated in Victoria. Grant65 | Talk-
I have read through your transcripts and you seem to often try to accuse those that disagree with you of acting in bad faith. I suggest you stop it. Yes I know the man from oz and Licinius and I in fact sometimes even share a computer with them, so report me all you like. Your argument seems to lack any substance so I suggest you stop basely insulting me.
07:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
05:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Re: Grant65 You claim that I make comments in bad faith and than you make a comment like that? You seem to have no point and are now trying to attack people who do not agree in an effort to dis-credit them. Stick to the argument please, or do you know that you are wrong? 11:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
For those who doubt that Australian rules football does not deserve a decent mention in this article, allow me to quote from the renowned Australian historian, Geoffrey Blainey: Of the main codes of football played in the world, Australian Rules is one of the oldest. By the normal definition of age, it is older than American football or Gridiron, older than Rugby League, older than the modern version of Gaelic Football from which it is widely said to have been descended, a little older than Association Football or Soccer, but younger than Rugby. Few of the world's famous football clubs, irrespective of the specific code they play, are as old s the senior Australian football clubs such as Melbourne, Geelong and Carlton. Even young clubs in the Victorian Football League such as Fitzroy and Footscray are older than any football club in such celebrated sporting nations as Italy and Germany and Argentina.
I know from personal experience that rugby diehards from either rugby code have trouble with this notion: they have trouble believing that Aussie rules was codified in 1859 and that Melbourne Football Club, formed in the same year, is older than virtually every other football club of any code on Earth. So for an article that is about the origins of the modern football codes, and their early inter-connectedness, Aussie rules has an important place in that. Also, remembering that the initial tension of the early forms of football was between running with the ball and kicking it, Australian and Gaelic football occupy an interesting middle road between these two early footballing philosophies, and thus a discussion on football generally is not complete without them. But don't take my word for it, I encourage you to do your own research. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 09:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I would dispute your comment, older than rugby league-It should be older than "the" rugby league. Which is irrelevant anyway. Age is no indicator of prominence otherwise there would be a section dedicated entirely and purely to the Sheffield club. It is no more Austrlaian football than Rugby, though rugby be international and supported.
12:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Anyway the issue is that AFL is too prominent and needs to be downgraded. It is irrelevant for the most part to the developement of the more popular international codes of football and the NFL, which is what most English speakers associate with the word football and is what this article should be more about. Again I call for a non-Australian person interested in all codes of football to help re-write this.
12:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
But it is irrelevant to the developement of the large international codes of footy and of cause the biggest average attendance per game league in the world, the NFL. It should be dramatically downgraded. I agree with Licinius, it is a mostly irrelevant code of football.
07:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
'Great and noble alien creature, as mayor of the fine planet of Australia, I welcome you to our fine...planet of Australia!' -South Park Factoid Killer 09:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Licinius and J is me that in terms of the modern world, on a global scale, Aussie rules is a mostly irrelevant code of football. I'd say the same thing about Gaelic football, rugby league and Candian football. However, an encyclopedia like this is meant to be informative, not just speak about the most common things. It should describe variations in different parts of the world. As Pippu says, it should describe the history of all the codes, giving a bit of perspective even when the codes aren't directly related. Obviously this should be done in reasonable manner, not giving undue prominence to a relatively unknown code, but I find it very hard to see why you say that the article does this, especially since you haven't answered numerous requests to say exactly what the problem is. JPD ( talk) 12:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Rugby League is not irrelevant internationally. Of cause it's golden international age was perhaps from 1930-1960 but for the past 5 years, the Russian Rugby League has attracted large audiences in Moscow(one game had 30,000 supporters watch the Russians beat the Americans), has got a 4.2 million dollar sponsorship in Jamaica, attracted decent audiences in Lebanon(>10000) for international games, attracted an audience of 5,000 in America for the Kangaroo-Tomahawks game in 2004 etc. and the Catalans in France recieved 11,000 spectators in their first match in the super league in a relatively small French coastal town of Perpignan. Hardly huge but I personally would not deem it irrelevant. That is not to mention the game's growth and organisation of conferences in areas the game did not previously exist(the English south and Home nations as well as in Holland, Serbia, Italy, Germany, etc.)
Furthermore the game is growing Internationally once more throughout its main nations through the Anzac test and the tri-nations tournament.
To pippu, Rugby Union is throughout many countries and its domestic leagues are normally secondary to the International games of which there is not a huge amount of. Rugby League in 1948-49 had more spectators in Northern England than the AFL has ever had in any one year,
Of which this is mostly irrelevant.
05:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Pippu, by my count the NRL is the seventeenth most supported football league in the world, but Rugby is played throughout many countries. I feel that the way you present information is irresponsible and borders on a deliberate attempt to manipulate truth in this debate.
05:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
The Southern game is no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby. This has already been said and is indeniable. I believe the heading should be changed to rectify this, or else be coherent with the rest of the article and refer to those games as games descended from "Melbourne Rules" specifically. That is the micro of the specific argument.
Also I feel that it needs to be rewritten as their is too much emphasis on AFL when it is an irrelevant game to most speakers of English when they refer to football. This makes the article misleading to people researching football. I feel it should be a small paragraph as compared to the other codes.
11:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
Dude, give it up. Aussie Rules was invented in Australia, is played by Australians and has a strong following in Australia and no other country. If that doesn't make it an Australian sport I don't know what does. Let it go.
I doubt anyone outside this forum has ever even heard of the term "Melbourne Rules". The game is officially called "Australian Rules" so let's just stick with that and be done. Still not convinced? Googlefight has the final word! :) 220.253.50.104 18:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
07:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
-- Raresaturn 03:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC) "The Southern game is no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby." This is a ridiculous statement and blatantly untrue. Australian Rules football originated in Australia, Rugby League and Union did not. It's that simple.
The Hobbits from The Shire seem to have given up. Is it safe to have the page unprotected? Grant65 | Talk 11:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Personnel insults are superfluous Grant. The term "Rugby League" and most of the modern rule changes to it originated in Australia. Australian Rules did not originate in Australia, but was a combination of different English games including Rugby and was made by foreigners. It is a distinctly Southern game with most of its top League teams being originally Victorian. It is a third rate game in the most populated state and the third most populated states of Australia, played by virtually noone in Sydney. It is hardly an Australian variety, definitely no more than Rugby League.
Which, for my small impart, still makes it a third rate sport compared to Rugby, Rugby Union and of cause soccer which have all recorded higher audiences, Rugby and Rugby Union on several occasions. By any reasoning that rating was a one off, unlikely to be repeated, many times more people have attended the Sydney AFL team than in fact have watched it on T.V.
Just my small say, you can keep talking crap Grant and Licinius, haha.
12:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
Propositions:
1. That the name "Australian rules football" be retained wherever it occurs in the article.
2. That the section dealing with varieties of Australian rules football and Gaelic football continues to be headed "Irish and Australian varieties of football".
Grant you are full of "crap"(for want of a better word) and have been from since the dialogue began. I have read through all your contributions to this discussion and you have contravened Wikipedia policy on several occasions. Also you continually tried to accuse others who do not agree with you of dishonesty which is bordering on bad faith. I suggest you stop it or I will report you to an administrator. 04:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC) J is me
The vote of 130.130.37.6 is not admissable as it does not come from a registered user. Neither is 60.225.200, and another user suspects that it is also used by The man from OZ (see User talk:60.225.200.50). On 24 February, J is me said: '"Yes I know the man from oz and Licinius and I in fact sometimes even share a computer with them..."' This means that they, at the very least, fit the technical definition of sockpuppets and are disqualified from voting. (I have reported all of the suspected/self-confessed sockpuppets.) Therefore all but one of the "disagree" votes may be disregarded. The vote so far is four to one in favour of the proposition. Grant65 | Talk 03:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
All on your say so Grant. To make such comments would normally need a very clear indication of where the basis of them is in Wikipedian policy. Such as "technical sockpuppetry" and disqualifying non users from voting. What proof is there that you and Pippu are not one and the same yourself? Definitely Raresaturn is probably a sockpuppet of yours. You are both obviously saying the same thing. Personally I am surprised that you have not accused 130.130.37.6 of being a sockpuppet as well, seeing that he does not agree with you. -- The man from OZ 07:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
3. That the section dealing with varieties of rugby football continues to be headed "Games descended from Rugby School rules".
As an aside, in future, let us be sure that whenever someone queries what is written in this article (to which I have contributed nothing), that they actually do have a thorough understanding of the history of all the football codes before we get into any debates. Anyone who truly understands this history would see nothing out of the ordinary mentioned in this article, and it is as good a summation as you are likely to find anywhere. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 05:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm unprotecting this because it's been protected for week and weeks and weeks. -- Tony Sidaway 01:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Raresaturn 23:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC) It seems vandalism has prevailed, the article has disappeared.
If you use protection for too long, two things happen:
I'm going again to unprotect to give editing a chance. The article has been protected for nearly four weeks, which makes it the longest period of protection on the wiki for an article that isn't actually the subject of an arbitration case (and I regard that as a poor excuse for prolonged protections, too).
Be good, I'll be watching and I've got plenty of yellow and red cards for people who can't edit cooperatively. -- Tony Sidaway 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Interesting article in today's SMH on the use of the term "Football" in Australia. Quite pertinent. If I didn't know any better, I would almost swear that the writer has frequented this talk page and other talk pages where this subject has arisen. Also interesting that an article in a Sydney newspaper should essentially be reinforcing many of the points we have made above on the historical significance of aussie rules. What do you all think? ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering since the official page for soccer is football (soccer), should everything pointing to other codes of football be named in the convention such as football (Australian rules), football (rugby union), football (rugby league) etc, or should we have the pages by their official real-world title - ie, Australian rules football, Association football, Rugby union, Rugby league etc? Seems a case of double standards if the official Wikipedia association football page is located at football (soccer) when that is not the official name of the sport. R o gerthat Talk 10:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
-- 202.7.176.133 22:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Agreed. Also the line in the article "In most English-speaking countries, the word "football" usually refers to Association football, also known as soccer (soccer originally being a slang abbreviation of Association)." Is clearly wrong. Most English speaking countries are refering to their own code when the say Football. The UK is the only English speaking country which means soccer when they say football. Australia, NZ, South Africa, USA & Canada all use the term Football to mean something else. I propose that this be amended in the article.
Due to the manner in which Grant65 has changed what the actual dispute was about, I will reannounce a new poll tomorrow to clearly outline the issue. -- Licinius 06:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not lose the last poll, it was clearly won, but they were not even what the issue was about and you manipulated them to distort the argument deliberately. In line with a long list of bad faith things you have done. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Poll
That the section featuring games that are descended from Victorian Rules and Gaelic Rules should be headed "Games descended from Victorian (Australia) and Gaelic Rules" keeping it in line with the other descriptions of games descended from an original set of rules. -- Licinius 05:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The point I am trying to make is that the game is descended from a distinct set of rules and to present it as such would be in line with how the other codes of football are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Marn Crook could go down as an Australian variation of football as this is how the other ancient codes are presented. However although this game might perhaps have inspired the original Melbourne rules to some extent, the other codes are presented as from a distinct code of rules and so should the AFL be presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is also quite rare for American football to be reffered to as a game descended from Rugby Rules, but this is how the article is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It must be hard for you to fathom Grant, but noone outside Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia really care about AFL. Swans supporters and Brisbane supporters are mostly immigrants from those states, sons of immigrants from those states and rent a crowd type of ignorants. In NSW and QLD, Rugby is the national game, oh and curiously the most supported club in Australia was the Brisbane Broncos according to a poll done 2 years ago. The very term "Rugby League" is Australian, which makes it as Australian as the Victorian game which really did not create any distinct aspect to football diferent to how it was played at the time. But this is irrelevant:
The question only asks that AFL should be presented in line with how the other codes such as American football are presented. -- Licinius 04:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
And why is user User:130.130.37.6 a suspected sockpuppet of mine? What evidence do you have except that that IP number voted against you in the last poll. The record of that IP is literally huge which probably means that it is also a public computer. I would sincerely like to know the process here of the investigation but, others have asked for it and now I would ike to know it considering that they are all meant to be my sockpuppets, right down to NSWelshman or whatever the name is. Please outline it. -- Licinius 05:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
That is what the game is descended from, just like Rugby school Rules and FA rules. It also has after it (Australia) to help clarify it. I hardly think it would be clear to most people that Gridirion descended from Rugby Rules but it is was never disputed. Surely a clear sign of the impartiality of Grant65 and Pippu. -- Licinius 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Might I also suggest to the impartial that timtim's vote be deleted and that his comment and the adjoining response by me be either ignored or deleted. Given the accusations of sockpuppeting being thrown around, I would also suggest that no new i.d.s be permitted to vote. Pippu, I am thinking you, or Grant65 -- Licinius 14:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Another bad faith comment. Anyway despite this, the issue has nothing to do with a "slightly scary personnel animosity" to you. It clearly puts the heading in perspective with how the other codes are presented as games descended from a set of rules. You have not stated why you object to this yet Grant65, merely put sockpuppet tags on anyone that voted against you. Thanks for reminding me that I have not contributed enough to Rugby so far, which is the reason I got involved. --
Licinius
10:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Also add that on the same basis, wilko29's vote be similiarly ignored.
I asked your vote to be ignored due to the Unwikipedian (in my opinion) conduct of Grant65 who I believe is using your computer as a sockpuppet. This may not be so, but due to the delicate nature of the debate I suggested that no new users be aloowed to vote. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not trying to not call it AFL, just to present it as a game descended from Victorian Rules in line with how the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Initial comment left by Grant65 at my IP number talk page, no not the one that voted "Actually Aussie rules is played in more states and is watched by far more Australians than either of the rugby codes or soccer. Sorry, I know the truth hurts. Grant65 | Talk 18:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)", unwikipedian among other things. Assuming bad faith from the beginning. Since than apart from trying to divert the initial argument, he has accused everybody who voted against him in the last poll of being my sockpuppet? He left the notices on the user talk page of each one. However J_is_me has been banned by a "Western Australian" administrator for doing the same thing? make any sense? I suggest that the administrator snobbygobble or some thing like that, should have his previous bannings examined as well, as the J_is_Me banning does not fit under any Wikipedian policy about sockpuppets or any such thing. That policy states that such accusations should not only be pursued, but that they should be respected. I hope that a serious administrator can take the time to do it properly. -- Licinius 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there any process to this, or is tagging people as sockpuppeters just something you do in the middle of a vote to try and get your way with this. I notice that they still have not been removed after weeks? -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe true Pippu, I see you have done alot of good work for the Sicilian version, but I have been accused of it as well and you have never actually engaged this poll seriously. But this is beside the point that new users should not be allowed to vote to avoid the accusations of sockpuppetry. However they have, but I still dispute their right to vote. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant65, I'm very surprised to see you accuse me of being a sock puppet. This is partly because i've been part of wikipedia for almost a year but also because we've crossed paths many times in the state of origin article. Is everyone with an opposing view to yours going to have their user page vandalised? You may not be a sock puppet but you're looking more and more like a troll every day. Vandalise my user page again and i'll report you. NSWelshman 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant has acted in extreme bad faith from the beginning. That is indisputable. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Why would I be jealous, Rugby is a much better game. It is line with how the article is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The poll is not suggesting that that AFL should be reffered to as Victorian Rules, but that it should be presented as a game descended from those rules in line with how the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This is not a joke, rogerthat, it merely presents it in line with how the other codes are presented as descended from a distinct set of rules. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not calling it Victorian Rules, merely referring it to a game descended from Victorian rules in the manner that the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Collaboration? joke? It is in line with how the other codes are presented though it is arguable that AFL is a game descended from either Rugby School Rules, or Sheffield rules. Do any of you seriously consider that AFL is any more distinctly Australian than the NFL is distinctly American? Do you deny the impact that Australians (born here and abroad) have had on the rules of Rugby League? Which is not any less than the changes that the Victorian Rules were to the manner of football played at the time. Seriously look at the different codes and their rules and the Victorian game as it first was which is not so different? Though those last three points are only slightly relevant and a bit irrelevant to the case in hand, which is that like the different codes of football are presented as games descended from original codes of rules that made them distinct, so should AFL be presented as a game descended in like manner.
The proposed change is in line with how the article is presented, very simply, and most of these comments and accusations are unfair and do not indicate how I feel. Do you think that I am any less disgusted at the cultural cringe that tries to steal the word "football" from it's rightful place. Do you think I am not proud that as an Australian, the code played in the Southern states has a much higher support base per capita and in deed a higher average attendance than the Premier League? Or do not see the day when Rugby League will be the same. Do you think that I do not look in scorn at those that talk in such a manner about football when in fact Sydney is the THIRD BIGGEST FOOTBALL CITY IN THE WORLD and Melbourne the biggest, the second being London which is a vastly bigger population with a much smaller area? I like soccer but it simply cannot arouse support throughout it's heartlands like Rugby and AFL can.
The simple fact is that that is how the article is presented and although I pay AFL out as a relatively minor game, it was only in response to the jest I got orininally. -- Licinius 11:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Licinius, the more you explain your position, the more I think you're reading something into the current wording that just plain isn't there. Saying Aussie Rules is an Australian variety of football does not say that it is more Australian than "gridiron" (NFL is the competition, not the game!) is American. It doesn't say that Australians haven't had great influence on rugby league. The descriptions of the sections don't need to be, and in fact shouldn't be in the same format, since the different groups are not exactly the same sort of groups. The different codes are grouped into sections based on their history and similarities between the codes. There are two very obvious big groups, both easily characterised by their "ancestry" - the kicking games descended from association rules and the carrying games descended from the rugby rules. The rest of the codes, all relatively minor in global terms, cannot be characterised by a single ancestry, and so shouldn't be. They are a group of games, some influenced by both soccer-type games and rugby school rules, with various influences within the group as well, that are most easily characterised by the fact that they are all Australian or Irish in origin. Saying some of them are Australian varieties of football is not saying the rugby codes are "unAustralian" any more than calling Gaelic football an Irish variety implies that Irish soccer players are not Irish/Gaelic! JPD ( talk) 12:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be referred to as a game descended from those rules. But its first code was Rugby Rules and that is how it is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant to the debate. The poll is whether those games should be referred to as descended from Victorian Rules in line with how the other sports are presented.-- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The official name of NFL is American football and it is referred to as a game descended from Rugby Rules. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
VOTE GOES 8-6 FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THE HEADING TO GAMES DESCENDED FROM VICTORIAN RULES IN LINE WITH HOW THE OTHER CODES IN THE ARTICLE ARE PRESENTED.
THIS TALLY IGNORES USERS WHO ARE NEW AND AS SUCH I SAID I WOULD IGNORE. IT INCLUDES BIATCH(WHICH SURELY MAKES A MOCKERY OF JEBUS CHRIST'S BANNING) WHO SEEMS TO HAVE ACCIDENTLY CAST HIS VOTE IN THE LAST POLL. THIS TALLY ALSO INCLUDES JISME WHO WOULD HAVE AGREED BUT HAS BEEN BANNED FOR TRANSGRESSIONS HE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT BY SNOOTYGOBBLE.
SO BE IT. THE HEADING REMAINS AS IT IS IN MY OPINION AS THE PIGS SEEM TO HAVE OVERCOME THE FARM :)
HAPPY EDITING. -- Licinius 03:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As a user who couldn't make edits (under the blocked username of User:Jebus Christ) I have been watching this debate unfold for some time.
I've been refusing to make contributions here out of sheer protest of my username being blocked. Out of sheer disgust, based on what i've seen here i've decided to swallow my pride and come back.
The conduct from people on both sides of the debate has been absolutely Apauling. While I don't necessarily agree with Licinius', the tactics of the power stoned Aussie Rules fraternity have been far more underhanded than any sock puppeteer could ever hope to be.
Am I correct in noting that every single person who voted against the aussie rules fraternity has been accused of being a sock puppet of licinius? For some of these there may be some sort of reason to suspect this but for others there was no reason other than the way they voted. Grant65, I accuse you of making sockpuppet accusations in BAD FAITH.
And why is it that those who make the same accusation against Grant65 have automatically been accused of bad faith? Is it a mere coincidence that the perpetrator of this is none other than an administrator from Grant65's home state and a member of the Aussie Rules fraternity?
Administrator Snottygobble, I accuse you of looking after your mates, of being biased and of not being fit to be a wikipedia administrator.
To the Aussie Rules fraternity in general, I accuse you of partaking in organised bullying and of using bullying tactics to monopolise this article both now and in the past.
Licinius, I think you've been driven to do much of what you're accused of. Maybe you have sockpuppets, maybe you don't. Maybe you acted in bad faith, maybe you didn't. But one thing is for certain, regardless of whether you are right, you didn't have a fair chance to state your case. You've been bullied, outnumbered and railroaded. You've had your words twisted and your vote hijacked. My advice to you is round up as much support for your cause as you can and then accept the final verdict whatever it is. And please don't run off with your tail between your legs if you lose. Stick around and lets try to build the number of non-afl appolegists contributing to this article.
Jimididit 14:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant65 Said 'Maybe he has a split personality rather than sockpuppets.' So was this comment in good faith?
Grant65 Said 'I see Jimididit has attempted to round up support on talk pages relating to codes other than Aussie rules.' The only support i've attempted to round up is for a general contribution to this article. I believe the contributions are unbalanced and that the article could use some contributions from people from other backgrounds. There are too many aussie rules pundits contributing to this article in comparison to supporters of other codes. I have not participated in this vote and don't intend to.
Grant65 said 'Well I'm certainly enjoying being part of majority opinion' Isn't it funny how everyone else with that opinion is a self confessed AFL fan? Where's the mix of opinions? What hapenned to all of the soccer people? Beaten off with a stick no doubt.
Grant65 Said 'Unfortunately for you guys (or guy), its unlikely that non-Australians even understand what we're arguing about,' Well that's irrelevant since I have no intention of dragging people into this argument.
Grant65 Said 'I haven't accused Tancred or Factoid Killer, among others' What others? And what evidence do you have that NSWelshman is a sockpuppet of licinius? Did you even bother to investigate? Suggest you take a look at his user page User:NSWelshman.
Grant65 Said 'Furthermore, J is me has now received an indefinite ban for various transgressions.' Yeah I noticed that. Apparently he visited a different country this time because the new ip address comes from a completely different country to the old one!
Grant65 Said 'Don't complain to me about bad faith. Anyone who is innocent of sockpuppetry has nothing to fear from such an accusation. ' Right. And anyone accusing you of sock puppetry is accused of bad faith and blocked! Everyone else needs to provide evidence. Basically, everyone other than you has to wear a suspected sockpuppet tag until they're investigated. And they're supposed to be happy to ignore it because they have nothing to fear unless they're guilty? Grant65, I accuse you of accusing NSWelshman of being a sockpuppet in BAD FAITH. He even gave you the means to investigate your claim. He pointed you to the state of origin page where he has made edits.
Grant65 said 'I'd love to see evidence that we are bosom buddies, coz it just ain't there' The evidence stronger than your evidence of sock puppeteering. What lead me to this conclusion are the following events/facts...
Since being unfairly blocked for my own username by some admin on a power trip I am making it my mission to hold such people accountable. I'm sure it won't be difficult to round up support from other mistreated wikipedeans Jimididit 17:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GordyB that is a fair point we all signed wrongly. Blame Licinius, he showed me how to sign and than I showed J is me. If you do not believe me you can go to Licinius's talk page where I left a message long before this poll began. What is this crap about technical sockpuppetry? It is not mentioned on either the vote page or the sockpuppet page. Grant65 has just made it up IN BAD FAITH to attempt to manipulate the vote. -- The man from OZ 07:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we'd all be happy to have more non-Australian input to the article. It is already good, but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that an awful lot of non-Australians who see this want to stay well clear because they see a whole load of ridiculous conversations going on on this talk page, mainly about things that aren't worth discussing. I'm not claiming that anyone has been perfect, and it's not worth arguing about who started it, but somehow now most of the discussion seems to be attacking each other rather than discussing the article. There have been, and still are, opportunities for the shire boys to put their points and answer the constructive repsonses that their comments have received, if they want to. However, as I said before, if they and the rest of us keep responding angrily to the more silly statements and accusations (whether they were intended as good faith humour or are the result of users being fed up with the silly arguments), then we're not going to get anywhere. As someone who has been insulted personally or collectively by both "sides" of the argument, can I ask that everyone actually listen to the points other users are making, and not assume that every point made is evidence of a "fraternity" with an agenda - these sort of assumptions are what lead to people taking sides. JPD ( talk) 12:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I dispute the result due to the fact that one user has been banned on no real basis. J is me was banned first for doing no more than what Grant65 had done, though admittedly in my opinion acting in bad faith, and now has been banned for logging in "anonymously" with out any evidence. Snottygobble is out of line. Anyhow this has robbed one potential voter and in my opinion was completely deliberate. Also I object to some of the votes on the basis that they have been ids created since the first poll began. I have already objected to this -- Licinius 06:03, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear. Several of the voters were new identities and as such contestable. Also judging by the comments, very few actually knew what the poll was about. -- Licinius 13:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
There have been two articles that have appeared in the sports section of The Age newspaper over the last two days that are of great interest to us. In yesterday's edition, I read that Australia Post is about to release a series of stamps to celebrate the Socceroos' attempt to embark on the impossible dream (not meaning to be disrespectful, simply an honest assessment). This new series of stamps is entitled "Soccer in Australia". When the General Manager of Australia Post was asked why use the term "soccer", he simply said that it was Australia Post's view that that is the name used by the majority of Australians, and that the word football is saved for the more dominant code of a particular area, i.e. aussie rules or league.
In today's edition, there was a great article about the proposal to heritage list the Melbourne Football Club, the oldest football club in Australia (in any code) and the third oldest in the world (in any code). It was formed in 1858, the year in which we have the first recorded game of aussie rules, the game being codified in the following year, making the game older than Association Football. Interestingly, it was once thought that the Geelong Football Club was the second oldest club in Australia (formed in July 1859), but there is now new evidence indicating that the Castlemaine Football Club was in fact formed in June 1859. That makes it the 5th oldest club in the world, and Geelong the 6th oldest club in the world. I can't recall where we list the oldest football clubs in the world, but this is what The Age says:
(although I would have thought that Carlton Football Club was pre 1862). ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Victorian RUles is a relatively minor and small variation of football. I suggest that another image should be used for people trying to understand the bigger international variations like Rugby(both codes), soccer and American football.
06:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
13:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
I think that that would be a good round-up.
04:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
-- Raresaturn 11:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC) While the compliment is appreciated, it's really not neccasary. Everyone knows that our great game originated in Victoria before spreading to the rest of the continent, so calling it 'Victorian Rules' is a bit redundant and somewhat confusing. At first I thought you were referring to some obscure code that originated in Victorian London, rather than the Australian game.
Australian Rules very obviously comes from Victoria. The variation is a Vicotrian variation. I am not questioning that its name is Aussie Rules, just that it is a game whose rules variation originated from Victoria like the two rugby codes originated from Rugby school, and soccer originated from its annagram association football. All the best.
06:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
I wouldn't waste my time with this anti-Aussie rules troll. Take a look at the Australian rules football attendance records and compare them with rugby in Australia and it's no wonder you are jealous of Aussie rules' continued growth and increased standing. R o gerthat Talk 11:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Rugby League started at Rugby school and not at Yorkshire. The split-away governing body than started to make rule changes that differentiated it from the IRB code, but it is inarguable to say that it did not start at Rugby school. I beieve you have the wrong conception of Rugby League. It was just a professional code of the game that over time developed its own distinct rules. Neither Rugby Union or Rugby today really resemble the nature of game when it was first codified.
11:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
I am not arguing that that it does not call itself Aussie Rules, what I am saying is that it is a distinctly Victorian version of the game. To call it an Australian variation as opposed to this would be misleading for non-Australians who do not understand the regional nature of both Rugby and Aussie Rules. Nor am I disputing that it is more popular as you mistakenly concluded and decided to leave on my discussion page. I just feel that to refer to it as a Victorian variety is better for international users who are trying to understand the differences in Australian football sports. All the best
13:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
Now please do not be silly, it is hardly played in Sydney etc., to say it has travelled the breadth of Australia is an exaggeration. But my point is that it is a Victorian variation of football, not an Australian variation. As I will reiterate, it is misleading for non-Australians visiting the page to say that it is an Australian variation because it is simply no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby League.
03:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Ah Grant65, once again you make sweaping comment that are not factual. Aussie Rules is not "popular" in Sydney, nor in most of NSW. Also the night we qualified for German 2006, thousands of people filled Sydney's streets until the next morning. This has never happened for Aussie Rules or Rugby league in Sydney. And many people in Sydney would totally understand the term "Victorian Rules' Tancred 06:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh come on. Please. One decent t.v. rating does not amount to considerable interest etc., it is hardly played in Sydney. It is not really an Australian game per se, though it is played exclusively by Australians. It is a Victorian variety of football.
All the best
04:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
-- Raresaturn 11:38, 4 March 2006 (UTC) I lived in Sydney for 3 years and never once heard the term 'Victorian Rules'. The term simply does not exist.
I have protected this article because of the edit wars. So use talk page to find a solution. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 17:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
05:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.202.61
What is being said is that is a Victorian variety of football like how there were Rugby varieties of football and soccer being the acronym for association rules. It is no more an Australian variety of football than Rugby League. Therefore I think it is misleading for non-Australians, to refer to it as an Australian variety of football because it is both historically and presently a predominately Victorian type of football as opposed to Rugby in the northern states. It has nothing to do with whether Australia was a continent or not, just emphasis that it both originated in Victoria, and is still a regional game in Australia even today. Therefore I feel to refer to it as an Australian variety of football is a little incoherent, factually incorrect, especially when there is a more apt manner to refer to it as, Victorian football.
Therefore I am unreservedly for the change of the name to a Victorian variety of football.
11:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC) 60.225.200.50
I feel that it is a Victorian variety of football and should be referred to as such in the disputed entence "Australian and Irish varieties"
11:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
I was talking very specifically about it being referred to a "Victorian variety" in the sentence disputed. I am not disputing it being called Australian Rules, please don't count me there, I just felt that in that sentence Victorian variety is more apt, as my understanding of the dispute is.
12:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
This is largely about weather the game can be referred to as 'Australian'. Perhaps other arguments have been put forward aswell but it has been specifically suggested that the game is victorian because it was invented in the colony of victoria before that colony was part of Austalia. Pointing out that the colony of victoria was part of Australia is more than relevant. Please view the comments left on my talk page Factoid Killer 09:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand the problem. I agree that Victorian football sounds like a reference to the Victorian era. I don't understand why Australian Rules Football can't be called 'Australian Rules Football'. Even if the federation didn't exist at that time, it does now and the AFL have the right to choose their own name. I'd object to rugby league being called a Yorkshire form of rugby. GordyB 21:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone apart from Licinius/60.225.202.61 think that the current picture is not the best one available? I have searched, but haven't found anything better in illustrating football games in general, than the current one. As I have said before, a better solution is that we get someone with the technical ability to do a collage like the one at the top of (e.g.) World War II. But until (and if) we have a better pic, I think the current one should stand. Grant65 | Talk 18:26, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It would be more appropriate to have an image that better represents the multitude of football codes or at least what the majority of ppl in the world consider to be football. I'd be happy for someone to replace it with a better suited picture however, the current picture is way better than having nothing at all. I am totally against the image being removed without replacement. Factoid Killer 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I did not really make my argument very coherent, so I shall put it here as succintly as possible.
I believe the heading "Australian and Irish variations" should be changed to "games descended from Melbourne club rules and Gaelic rules". This is in line with the previous entries "games descended from rugby school rules" and "games descended from fa rules".
I feel that this is a better representation of not only the Victorian game but also a clearer outline of its support within Australia. I also feel that it is more inline with how the article was presented.
All the best
08:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius 08:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Licinus,
That is not what you were saying at all when you sent me this message...
'The Victorian Rules folk ar trying to claim that Aussie Rules is an Australian variety of the game when it is very distinctly a Victorian variation of the football and was codified in Victoria many years before the beginning of Australia. If you share the same opinion I would love for you to come to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Football and give your opinion.
All the best
03:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Licinius '
I'm a Queenslander and a Rugby League/Union supporter. In fact I don't care much for aussie rules at all but trying to tamper with a page out of pure hatred for the game makes you no better than those British Rugby fans who were trying to have the Rugby League article removed through claims that it was a minor sport. Aussie rules is more popular in Australia and always will be. That's because of the religious nature of its following. Also because the game transcends gender and socio-economic barriers. Rugby League will always be the greatest game on earth but it will never be the most popular.
Factoid Killer 14:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes there are many reasons I dispute the right of the game to be called "Australian", but that is it. That is the disputed piece. I am not great arguer. haha
and I am not trying to have the AFL removed factoid killer, please be reasonable and thnk about the actually disputed piece. Grant never mentioned it and continually accused me of motives I never had.
Grant I do not care about them or dispute the AFL is the most supported league in Australia. But it is a Victorian game and it is supported in the Southern states.
06:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Victoria may be dominant, (modulo the latest grandfinal) but the sport is wider than Victoria. Very strong in SA and WA and a reasonable following in QLD, NT. (And Tas, I think.) Some following in NSW, and growing. It's arguable that the AFL is really just the VFL plus a few teams taken from/exported to other states, but the rules of the game are national, not Victorian. Regards, Ben Aveling 10:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Licinius, this "southern" thing is nonsense. Australian rules has been the dominant code in the NT for generations. The support for rugby league is far more limited, in geographical terms. And since there are no other major football codes that originated in Australia, I can't see the problem with Australian rules being referred to as an "Australian code" etc. Unless you think Victoria is somehow not part of Australia. Grant65 | Talk 05:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Well Grant, despite your attempts to malign me, you are correct. It should be referred to as a game descended from Melbourne Rules. That is clear enough and in line with the presentation of the article. Though it is debatable that it deserves a mention as a game descended from Rugby rules or miscellaneous due to the fact that it is a relatively minor Southern Australian regional game that was pretty much a copy of rugby and Sheffield Rules, (unlike the international codes of Rugby, the American football and of cause soccer) for the present moment I feel that it should be "Games descended from Melbourne Rules ....".
Please stop trying to attribute sentiments that I do not have, Grant, you have accused me of bad faith from the beginning and it reflects on your bias.
To call it a game descended from Australian variety is as silly to call it a game descended from Oceania variety, Australasian variety or outhern hemisphere variety. It is very distinctly a Victorian game and as such it should be referred to as Melbourne Rules.
12:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Licinius said: 'To call it a game descended from Australian variety is as silly to call it a game descended from Oceania variety, Australasian variety or outhern hemisphere variety'... Aren't we getting a little petty here? Why leave it at melbourne. Whoever wrote down the rules must have been in a specific suburb of melbourne! Even a suburb is pretty general, why not write down the address in which the original rules were written down. Why not call it 10 launceston dve, St Kilda, Melbourne, Victoria, Australian rules? Why stop there? Lets get the exact GPS coordinates! Factoid Killer 12:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Does "Aussie Rules" deserve its own heading in this specific section at all? This whole page is far too Victorian and needs to be completely be re-edited by someone with a clear perspective, good record and proven integrity. AFL has far more prominence that it should rightly have on a page dedicated to "football". In the interests of more coherent descriptions, I feel that this page should be rewritten to put the different codes of football in a better perspective. It is not good enough to say that the "AFL" game is a generic picture of football from the era because modern football was mostly an English creation(all codes). I see plenty of better pictures throughout the page that could be used instead of it.
In the specific line, I personally feel it is indisputable not to refer to it as "Australian" per se because it is simply not an Australian game any more than Rugby. The heading I feel should be a clear indicator of the origins of the networked games just as the others are. Also the games from the AFL are more than superfluous and if it was done with the precedents created in the AFL section, there would be far too many games under both the Rugby and soccer areas.
Also there is far too much on the origins of AFL compared to the games of higher precedence like Rugby, American football and soccer. Remember people this is not just an Australian page, it is for all people who speak English who wish to know about "football".
13:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
I have to admit, I was very surprised to arrive at this page and see it dominated by Aussie Rules. I agree with replacing the image with something more appropriate. I know the victorians have that major inferiority complex to get over but this isn't their page. Factoid Killer 13:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to chip in with my opinion on the use of the term football.
English has become an international language, and millions of people, regardless of their mother tongue, speak it for a variety of uses, such as surfing the 'net. In most languages other than english, I assume, football is that sport which is played with the feet. Usually this word is not translated, but rather, adapted phonetically to the speakers' native language; for example, in spanish: futbol. I think that the correct terminology for this sport should be football. However, in my opinion, it should always be qualified with the soccer term in parenthesis to avoid confusion.
That's a good start JPD. I would like to see a bigger/clearer portion representing American/Canadian football. And given the different colour balances, maybe the whole thing would look better in black and white? Grant65 | Talk 00:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The introduction of the article should state, in absolute black and white, the different forms of football. The opening phrase could be a list of all football types, including:
Thoughts on this? R o gerthat Talk 11:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Aussie Rules, Gaelic and International are all relatively small games compared to the NFL, international rugby of both codes and most of all soccer. Should they realistically have more than a minor page dedicated to them?...
I am sorry, I am new to this program. I meant a smaller area of the page as compared to the major sports in order to better certify their relative size compared to the codes I mentioned.
Do the arguments above make sense to anyone?...
13:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Surely this montage needs futsol which is much bigger than AFL or Gaelic, a better differentiation between Rugby Union and Rugby League(the scrum is irrelevant in League and their are many differences of style between both forms of Rugby). To be honest, it is a bit much to have AFL or Gaelic in it. What is wrong with the people here? We need more Europeans and Americans to contribute to this. AFL is a joke compared to the major codes. What the hell is going on here?
13:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
The scrum isn't irrelevant in league but Rugby League and Rugby considered as separate sports are also much bigger sports than Aussie Rules. Factoid Killer 13:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, you need a pretty severe bias to think Rugby and League should be grouped as 1 sport and then list Aussie Rules and International rules as separate sports. This is the level of Inferiority Complex we're dealing with here. Factoid Killer 13:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
There aren't any pictures of Futsal, either, but even if there were it would be harder to justify considering it separately from soccer.
Re: Factoid killer,
The scrum might not be irrelevant(arguably) but a scrum with breakaways is not Rugby League.
More and more people are seeing that the Victorian football supporters have a strange attitude to this which is not constructive to wikipedia.
"Aussie Rules" is no more an Australian variety of football than Rugby or Union and they seem to refuse to accept it. The montage, as J is me pointed out, is a farce.
Grant seems to be unable to make any sound argument above the AFL is the most popular League in Australia as far as I can understand which is at best only mildly relevant, and now a whole host of contributors are surely just taking the piss. I second fellow shire boy, the man from oz and say that we need to employ the services of a non Australian administrator interested in all forms of football to sort this out reasonably. All the best to all contributors
05:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
OK, let me repeat my opening comment: "The opening phrase could be a list of all football types, including:". Including is the key word. Now read the start of this argument again. R o gerthat Talk 11:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting how Licinius, "Man from Oz" and "J is me" all make the very same mistake with their signature. If these "individuals" all try to vote in a poll, I will report it to administrators as a suspected case of sockpuppets. Along with any others I suspect of abusing user registration.
Pippu, you're right, I'm from Perth.
I bet the kids in Bomber or Lions jumpers in strongholds of the game like Hobart, Alice Springs, the Tiwi Islands, Papua New Guinea and Nauru couldn't give a fat rat's clacker where their game originated. And they certainly don't call it "AFL", "Victorian rules", "Melbourne rules" or any such name. Australian rules football is the full name recogised by both those who follow it (who outnumber the followers of any other sport in Australia) and by non-followers in other countries. If the detractors of Australian rules have a coherent argument against the international historical significance of Australian rules, I have yet to hear it. I will argue with them when they come with something other than the fact the game originated in Victoria. Grant65 | Talk-
I have read through your transcripts and you seem to often try to accuse those that disagree with you of acting in bad faith. I suggest you stop it. Yes I know the man from oz and Licinius and I in fact sometimes even share a computer with them, so report me all you like. Your argument seems to lack any substance so I suggest you stop basely insulting me.
07:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
05:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Re: Grant65 You claim that I make comments in bad faith and than you make a comment like that? You seem to have no point and are now trying to attack people who do not agree in an effort to dis-credit them. Stick to the argument please, or do you know that you are wrong? 11:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
For those who doubt that Australian rules football does not deserve a decent mention in this article, allow me to quote from the renowned Australian historian, Geoffrey Blainey: Of the main codes of football played in the world, Australian Rules is one of the oldest. By the normal definition of age, it is older than American football or Gridiron, older than Rugby League, older than the modern version of Gaelic Football from which it is widely said to have been descended, a little older than Association Football or Soccer, but younger than Rugby. Few of the world's famous football clubs, irrespective of the specific code they play, are as old s the senior Australian football clubs such as Melbourne, Geelong and Carlton. Even young clubs in the Victorian Football League such as Fitzroy and Footscray are older than any football club in such celebrated sporting nations as Italy and Germany and Argentina.
I know from personal experience that rugby diehards from either rugby code have trouble with this notion: they have trouble believing that Aussie rules was codified in 1859 and that Melbourne Football Club, formed in the same year, is older than virtually every other football club of any code on Earth. So for an article that is about the origins of the modern football codes, and their early inter-connectedness, Aussie rules has an important place in that. Also, remembering that the initial tension of the early forms of football was between running with the ball and kicking it, Australian and Gaelic football occupy an interesting middle road between these two early footballing philosophies, and thus a discussion on football generally is not complete without them. But don't take my word for it, I encourage you to do your own research. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 09:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I would dispute your comment, older than rugby league-It should be older than "the" rugby league. Which is irrelevant anyway. Age is no indicator of prominence otherwise there would be a section dedicated entirely and purely to the Sheffield club. It is no more Austrlaian football than Rugby, though rugby be international and supported.
12:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
Anyway the issue is that AFL is too prominent and needs to be downgraded. It is irrelevant for the most part to the developement of the more popular international codes of football and the NFL, which is what most English speakers associate with the word football and is what this article should be more about. Again I call for a non-Australian person interested in all codes of football to help re-write this.
12:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Licinius
But it is irrelevant to the developement of the large international codes of footy and of cause the biggest average attendance per game league in the world, the NFL. It should be dramatically downgraded. I agree with Licinius, it is a mostly irrelevant code of football.
07:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
'Great and noble alien creature, as mayor of the fine planet of Australia, I welcome you to our fine...planet of Australia!' -South Park Factoid Killer 09:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Licinius and J is me that in terms of the modern world, on a global scale, Aussie rules is a mostly irrelevant code of football. I'd say the same thing about Gaelic football, rugby league and Candian football. However, an encyclopedia like this is meant to be informative, not just speak about the most common things. It should describe variations in different parts of the world. As Pippu says, it should describe the history of all the codes, giving a bit of perspective even when the codes aren't directly related. Obviously this should be done in reasonable manner, not giving undue prominence to a relatively unknown code, but I find it very hard to see why you say that the article does this, especially since you haven't answered numerous requests to say exactly what the problem is. JPD ( talk) 12:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Rugby League is not irrelevant internationally. Of cause it's golden international age was perhaps from 1930-1960 but for the past 5 years, the Russian Rugby League has attracted large audiences in Moscow(one game had 30,000 supporters watch the Russians beat the Americans), has got a 4.2 million dollar sponsorship in Jamaica, attracted decent audiences in Lebanon(>10000) for international games, attracted an audience of 5,000 in America for the Kangaroo-Tomahawks game in 2004 etc. and the Catalans in France recieved 11,000 spectators in their first match in the super league in a relatively small French coastal town of Perpignan. Hardly huge but I personally would not deem it irrelevant. That is not to mention the game's growth and organisation of conferences in areas the game did not previously exist(the English south and Home nations as well as in Holland, Serbia, Italy, Germany, etc.)
Furthermore the game is growing Internationally once more throughout its main nations through the Anzac test and the tri-nations tournament.
To pippu, Rugby Union is throughout many countries and its domestic leagues are normally secondary to the International games of which there is not a huge amount of. Rugby League in 1948-49 had more spectators in Northern England than the AFL has ever had in any one year,
Of which this is mostly irrelevant.
05:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
Pippu, by my count the NRL is the seventeenth most supported football league in the world, but Rugby is played throughout many countries. I feel that the way you present information is irresponsible and borders on a deliberate attempt to manipulate truth in this debate.
05:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC) J is me
The Southern game is no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby. This has already been said and is indeniable. I believe the heading should be changed to rectify this, or else be coherent with the rest of the article and refer to those games as games descended from "Melbourne Rules" specifically. That is the micro of the specific argument.
Also I feel that it needs to be rewritten as their is too much emphasis on AFL when it is an irrelevant game to most speakers of English when they refer to football. This makes the article misleading to people researching football. I feel it should be a small paragraph as compared to the other codes.
11:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
Dude, give it up. Aussie Rules was invented in Australia, is played by Australians and has a strong following in Australia and no other country. If that doesn't make it an Australian sport I don't know what does. Let it go.
I doubt anyone outside this forum has ever even heard of the term "Melbourne Rules". The game is officially called "Australian Rules" so let's just stick with that and be done. Still not convinced? Googlefight has the final word! :) 220.253.50.104 18:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
07:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
-- Raresaturn 03:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC) "The Southern game is no more an Australian variation of football than Rugby." This is a ridiculous statement and blatantly untrue. Australian Rules football originated in Australia, Rugby League and Union did not. It's that simple.
The Hobbits from The Shire seem to have given up. Is it safe to have the page unprotected? Grant65 | Talk 11:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Personnel insults are superfluous Grant. The term "Rugby League" and most of the modern rule changes to it originated in Australia. Australian Rules did not originate in Australia, but was a combination of different English games including Rugby and was made by foreigners. It is a distinctly Southern game with most of its top League teams being originally Victorian. It is a third rate game in the most populated state and the third most populated states of Australia, played by virtually noone in Sydney. It is hardly an Australian variety, definitely no more than Rugby League.
Which, for my small impart, still makes it a third rate sport compared to Rugby, Rugby Union and of cause soccer which have all recorded higher audiences, Rugby and Rugby Union on several occasions. By any reasoning that rating was a one off, unlikely to be repeated, many times more people have attended the Sydney AFL team than in fact have watched it on T.V.
Just my small say, you can keep talking crap Grant and Licinius, haha.
12:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC) The man from OZ
Propositions:
1. That the name "Australian rules football" be retained wherever it occurs in the article.
2. That the section dealing with varieties of Australian rules football and Gaelic football continues to be headed "Irish and Australian varieties of football".
Grant you are full of "crap"(for want of a better word) and have been from since the dialogue began. I have read through all your contributions to this discussion and you have contravened Wikipedia policy on several occasions. Also you continually tried to accuse others who do not agree with you of dishonesty which is bordering on bad faith. I suggest you stop it or I will report you to an administrator. 04:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC) J is me
The vote of 130.130.37.6 is not admissable as it does not come from a registered user. Neither is 60.225.200, and another user suspects that it is also used by The man from OZ (see User talk:60.225.200.50). On 24 February, J is me said: '"Yes I know the man from oz and Licinius and I in fact sometimes even share a computer with them..."' This means that they, at the very least, fit the technical definition of sockpuppets and are disqualified from voting. (I have reported all of the suspected/self-confessed sockpuppets.) Therefore all but one of the "disagree" votes may be disregarded. The vote so far is four to one in favour of the proposition. Grant65 | Talk 03:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
All on your say so Grant. To make such comments would normally need a very clear indication of where the basis of them is in Wikipedian policy. Such as "technical sockpuppetry" and disqualifying non users from voting. What proof is there that you and Pippu are not one and the same yourself? Definitely Raresaturn is probably a sockpuppet of yours. You are both obviously saying the same thing. Personally I am surprised that you have not accused 130.130.37.6 of being a sockpuppet as well, seeing that he does not agree with you. -- The man from OZ 07:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
3. That the section dealing with varieties of rugby football continues to be headed "Games descended from Rugby School rules".
As an aside, in future, let us be sure that whenever someone queries what is written in this article (to which I have contributed nothing), that they actually do have a thorough understanding of the history of all the football codes before we get into any debates. Anyone who truly understands this history would see nothing out of the ordinary mentioned in this article, and it is as good a summation as you are likely to find anywhere. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 05:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm unprotecting this because it's been protected for week and weeks and weeks. -- Tony Sidaway 01:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Raresaturn 23:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC) It seems vandalism has prevailed, the article has disappeared.
If you use protection for too long, two things happen:
I'm going again to unprotect to give editing a chance. The article has been protected for nearly four weeks, which makes it the longest period of protection on the wiki for an article that isn't actually the subject of an arbitration case (and I regard that as a poor excuse for prolonged protections, too).
Be good, I'll be watching and I've got plenty of yellow and red cards for people who can't edit cooperatively. -- Tony Sidaway 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Interesting article in today's SMH on the use of the term "Football" in Australia. Quite pertinent. If I didn't know any better, I would almost swear that the writer has frequented this talk page and other talk pages where this subject has arisen. Also interesting that an article in a Sydney newspaper should essentially be reinforcing many of the points we have made above on the historical significance of aussie rules. What do you all think? ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering since the official page for soccer is football (soccer), should everything pointing to other codes of football be named in the convention such as football (Australian rules), football (rugby union), football (rugby league) etc, or should we have the pages by their official real-world title - ie, Australian rules football, Association football, Rugby union, Rugby league etc? Seems a case of double standards if the official Wikipedia association football page is located at football (soccer) when that is not the official name of the sport. R o gerthat Talk 10:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
-- 202.7.176.133 22:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Agreed. Also the line in the article "In most English-speaking countries, the word "football" usually refers to Association football, also known as soccer (soccer originally being a slang abbreviation of Association)." Is clearly wrong. Most English speaking countries are refering to their own code when the say Football. The UK is the only English speaking country which means soccer when they say football. Australia, NZ, South Africa, USA & Canada all use the term Football to mean something else. I propose that this be amended in the article.
Due to the manner in which Grant65 has changed what the actual dispute was about, I will reannounce a new poll tomorrow to clearly outline the issue. -- Licinius 06:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not lose the last poll, it was clearly won, but they were not even what the issue was about and you manipulated them to distort the argument deliberately. In line with a long list of bad faith things you have done. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Poll
That the section featuring games that are descended from Victorian Rules and Gaelic Rules should be headed "Games descended from Victorian (Australia) and Gaelic Rules" keeping it in line with the other descriptions of games descended from an original set of rules. -- Licinius 05:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The point I am trying to make is that the game is descended from a distinct set of rules and to present it as such would be in line with how the other codes of football are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Marn Crook could go down as an Australian variation of football as this is how the other ancient codes are presented. However although this game might perhaps have inspired the original Melbourne rules to some extent, the other codes are presented as from a distinct code of rules and so should the AFL be presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is also quite rare for American football to be reffered to as a game descended from Rugby Rules, but this is how the article is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It must be hard for you to fathom Grant, but noone outside Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia really care about AFL. Swans supporters and Brisbane supporters are mostly immigrants from those states, sons of immigrants from those states and rent a crowd type of ignorants. In NSW and QLD, Rugby is the national game, oh and curiously the most supported club in Australia was the Brisbane Broncos according to a poll done 2 years ago. The very term "Rugby League" is Australian, which makes it as Australian as the Victorian game which really did not create any distinct aspect to football diferent to how it was played at the time. But this is irrelevant:
The question only asks that AFL should be presented in line with how the other codes such as American football are presented. -- Licinius 04:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
And why is user User:130.130.37.6 a suspected sockpuppet of mine? What evidence do you have except that that IP number voted against you in the last poll. The record of that IP is literally huge which probably means that it is also a public computer. I would sincerely like to know the process here of the investigation but, others have asked for it and now I would ike to know it considering that they are all meant to be my sockpuppets, right down to NSWelshman or whatever the name is. Please outline it. -- Licinius 05:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
That is what the game is descended from, just like Rugby school Rules and FA rules. It also has after it (Australia) to help clarify it. I hardly think it would be clear to most people that Gridirion descended from Rugby Rules but it is was never disputed. Surely a clear sign of the impartiality of Grant65 and Pippu. -- Licinius 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Might I also suggest to the impartial that timtim's vote be deleted and that his comment and the adjoining response by me be either ignored or deleted. Given the accusations of sockpuppeting being thrown around, I would also suggest that no new i.d.s be permitted to vote. Pippu, I am thinking you, or Grant65 -- Licinius 14:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Another bad faith comment. Anyway despite this, the issue has nothing to do with a "slightly scary personnel animosity" to you. It clearly puts the heading in perspective with how the other codes are presented as games descended from a set of rules. You have not stated why you object to this yet Grant65, merely put sockpuppet tags on anyone that voted against you. Thanks for reminding me that I have not contributed enough to Rugby so far, which is the reason I got involved. --
Licinius
10:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Also add that on the same basis, wilko29's vote be similiarly ignored.
I asked your vote to be ignored due to the Unwikipedian (in my opinion) conduct of Grant65 who I believe is using your computer as a sockpuppet. This may not be so, but due to the delicate nature of the debate I suggested that no new users be aloowed to vote. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not trying to not call it AFL, just to present it as a game descended from Victorian Rules in line with how the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Initial comment left by Grant65 at my IP number talk page, no not the one that voted "Actually Aussie rules is played in more states and is watched by far more Australians than either of the rugby codes or soccer. Sorry, I know the truth hurts. Grant65 | Talk 18:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)", unwikipedian among other things. Assuming bad faith from the beginning. Since than apart from trying to divert the initial argument, he has accused everybody who voted against him in the last poll of being my sockpuppet? He left the notices on the user talk page of each one. However J_is_me has been banned by a "Western Australian" administrator for doing the same thing? make any sense? I suggest that the administrator snobbygobble or some thing like that, should have his previous bannings examined as well, as the J_is_Me banning does not fit under any Wikipedian policy about sockpuppets or any such thing. That policy states that such accusations should not only be pursued, but that they should be respected. I hope that a serious administrator can take the time to do it properly. -- Licinius 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there any process to this, or is tagging people as sockpuppeters just something you do in the middle of a vote to try and get your way with this. I notice that they still have not been removed after weeks? -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe true Pippu, I see you have done alot of good work for the Sicilian version, but I have been accused of it as well and you have never actually engaged this poll seriously. But this is beside the point that new users should not be allowed to vote to avoid the accusations of sockpuppetry. However they have, but I still dispute their right to vote. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant65, I'm very surprised to see you accuse me of being a sock puppet. This is partly because i've been part of wikipedia for almost a year but also because we've crossed paths many times in the state of origin article. Is everyone with an opposing view to yours going to have their user page vandalised? You may not be a sock puppet but you're looking more and more like a troll every day. Vandalise my user page again and i'll report you. NSWelshman 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant has acted in extreme bad faith from the beginning. That is indisputable. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Why would I be jealous, Rugby is a much better game. It is line with how the article is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The poll is not suggesting that that AFL should be reffered to as Victorian Rules, but that it should be presented as a game descended from those rules in line with how the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This is not a joke, rogerthat, it merely presents it in line with how the other codes are presented as descended from a distinct set of rules. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not calling it Victorian Rules, merely referring it to a game descended from Victorian rules in the manner that the other codes are presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Collaboration? joke? It is in line with how the other codes are presented though it is arguable that AFL is a game descended from either Rugby School Rules, or Sheffield rules. Do any of you seriously consider that AFL is any more distinctly Australian than the NFL is distinctly American? Do you deny the impact that Australians (born here and abroad) have had on the rules of Rugby League? Which is not any less than the changes that the Victorian Rules were to the manner of football played at the time. Seriously look at the different codes and their rules and the Victorian game as it first was which is not so different? Though those last three points are only slightly relevant and a bit irrelevant to the case in hand, which is that like the different codes of football are presented as games descended from original codes of rules that made them distinct, so should AFL be presented as a game descended in like manner.
The proposed change is in line with how the article is presented, very simply, and most of these comments and accusations are unfair and do not indicate how I feel. Do you think that I am any less disgusted at the cultural cringe that tries to steal the word "football" from it's rightful place. Do you think I am not proud that as an Australian, the code played in the Southern states has a much higher support base per capita and in deed a higher average attendance than the Premier League? Or do not see the day when Rugby League will be the same. Do you think that I do not look in scorn at those that talk in such a manner about football when in fact Sydney is the THIRD BIGGEST FOOTBALL CITY IN THE WORLD and Melbourne the biggest, the second being London which is a vastly bigger population with a much smaller area? I like soccer but it simply cannot arouse support throughout it's heartlands like Rugby and AFL can.
The simple fact is that that is how the article is presented and although I pay AFL out as a relatively minor game, it was only in response to the jest I got orininally. -- Licinius 11:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Licinius, the more you explain your position, the more I think you're reading something into the current wording that just plain isn't there. Saying Aussie Rules is an Australian variety of football does not say that it is more Australian than "gridiron" (NFL is the competition, not the game!) is American. It doesn't say that Australians haven't had great influence on rugby league. The descriptions of the sections don't need to be, and in fact shouldn't be in the same format, since the different groups are not exactly the same sort of groups. The different codes are grouped into sections based on their history and similarities between the codes. There are two very obvious big groups, both easily characterised by their "ancestry" - the kicking games descended from association rules and the carrying games descended from the rugby rules. The rest of the codes, all relatively minor in global terms, cannot be characterised by a single ancestry, and so shouldn't be. They are a group of games, some influenced by both soccer-type games and rugby school rules, with various influences within the group as well, that are most easily characterised by the fact that they are all Australian or Irish in origin. Saying some of them are Australian varieties of football is not saying the rugby codes are "unAustralian" any more than calling Gaelic football an Irish variety implies that Irish soccer players are not Irish/Gaelic! JPD ( talk) 12:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be referred to as a game descended from those rules. But its first code was Rugby Rules and that is how it is presented. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant to the debate. The poll is whether those games should be referred to as descended from Victorian Rules in line with how the other sports are presented.-- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The official name of NFL is American football and it is referred to as a game descended from Rugby Rules. -- Licinius 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
VOTE GOES 8-6 FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THE HEADING TO GAMES DESCENDED FROM VICTORIAN RULES IN LINE WITH HOW THE OTHER CODES IN THE ARTICLE ARE PRESENTED.
THIS TALLY IGNORES USERS WHO ARE NEW AND AS SUCH I SAID I WOULD IGNORE. IT INCLUDES BIATCH(WHICH SURELY MAKES A MOCKERY OF JEBUS CHRIST'S BANNING) WHO SEEMS TO HAVE ACCIDENTLY CAST HIS VOTE IN THE LAST POLL. THIS TALLY ALSO INCLUDES JISME WHO WOULD HAVE AGREED BUT HAS BEEN BANNED FOR TRANSGRESSIONS HE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT BY SNOOTYGOBBLE.
SO BE IT. THE HEADING REMAINS AS IT IS IN MY OPINION AS THE PIGS SEEM TO HAVE OVERCOME THE FARM :)
HAPPY EDITING. -- Licinius 03:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As a user who couldn't make edits (under the blocked username of User:Jebus Christ) I have been watching this debate unfold for some time.
I've been refusing to make contributions here out of sheer protest of my username being blocked. Out of sheer disgust, based on what i've seen here i've decided to swallow my pride and come back.
The conduct from people on both sides of the debate has been absolutely Apauling. While I don't necessarily agree with Licinius', the tactics of the power stoned Aussie Rules fraternity have been far more underhanded than any sock puppeteer could ever hope to be.
Am I correct in noting that every single person who voted against the aussie rules fraternity has been accused of being a sock puppet of licinius? For some of these there may be some sort of reason to suspect this but for others there was no reason other than the way they voted. Grant65, I accuse you of making sockpuppet accusations in BAD FAITH.
And why is it that those who make the same accusation against Grant65 have automatically been accused of bad faith? Is it a mere coincidence that the perpetrator of this is none other than an administrator from Grant65's home state and a member of the Aussie Rules fraternity?
Administrator Snottygobble, I accuse you of looking after your mates, of being biased and of not being fit to be a wikipedia administrator.
To the Aussie Rules fraternity in general, I accuse you of partaking in organised bullying and of using bullying tactics to monopolise this article both now and in the past.
Licinius, I think you've been driven to do much of what you're accused of. Maybe you have sockpuppets, maybe you don't. Maybe you acted in bad faith, maybe you didn't. But one thing is for certain, regardless of whether you are right, you didn't have a fair chance to state your case. You've been bullied, outnumbered and railroaded. You've had your words twisted and your vote hijacked. My advice to you is round up as much support for your cause as you can and then accept the final verdict whatever it is. And please don't run off with your tail between your legs if you lose. Stick around and lets try to build the number of non-afl appolegists contributing to this article.
Jimididit 14:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant65 Said 'Maybe he has a split personality rather than sockpuppets.' So was this comment in good faith?
Grant65 Said 'I see Jimididit has attempted to round up support on talk pages relating to codes other than Aussie rules.' The only support i've attempted to round up is for a general contribution to this article. I believe the contributions are unbalanced and that the article could use some contributions from people from other backgrounds. There are too many aussie rules pundits contributing to this article in comparison to supporters of other codes. I have not participated in this vote and don't intend to.
Grant65 said 'Well I'm certainly enjoying being part of majority opinion' Isn't it funny how everyone else with that opinion is a self confessed AFL fan? Where's the mix of opinions? What hapenned to all of the soccer people? Beaten off with a stick no doubt.
Grant65 Said 'Unfortunately for you guys (or guy), its unlikely that non-Australians even understand what we're arguing about,' Well that's irrelevant since I have no intention of dragging people into this argument.
Grant65 Said 'I haven't accused Tancred or Factoid Killer, among others' What others? And what evidence do you have that NSWelshman is a sockpuppet of licinius? Did you even bother to investigate? Suggest you take a look at his user page User:NSWelshman.
Grant65 Said 'Furthermore, J is me has now received an indefinite ban for various transgressions.' Yeah I noticed that. Apparently he visited a different country this time because the new ip address comes from a completely different country to the old one!
Grant65 Said 'Don't complain to me about bad faith. Anyone who is innocent of sockpuppetry has nothing to fear from such an accusation. ' Right. And anyone accusing you of sock puppetry is accused of bad faith and blocked! Everyone else needs to provide evidence. Basically, everyone other than you has to wear a suspected sockpuppet tag until they're investigated. And they're supposed to be happy to ignore it because they have nothing to fear unless they're guilty? Grant65, I accuse you of accusing NSWelshman of being a sockpuppet in BAD FAITH. He even gave you the means to investigate your claim. He pointed you to the state of origin page where he has made edits.
Grant65 said 'I'd love to see evidence that we are bosom buddies, coz it just ain't there' The evidence stronger than your evidence of sock puppeteering. What lead me to this conclusion are the following events/facts...
Since being unfairly blocked for my own username by some admin on a power trip I am making it my mission to hold such people accountable. I'm sure it won't be difficult to round up support from other mistreated wikipedeans Jimididit 17:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GordyB that is a fair point we all signed wrongly. Blame Licinius, he showed me how to sign and than I showed J is me. If you do not believe me you can go to Licinius's talk page where I left a message long before this poll began. What is this crap about technical sockpuppetry? It is not mentioned on either the vote page or the sockpuppet page. Grant65 has just made it up IN BAD FAITH to attempt to manipulate the vote. -- The man from OZ 07:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we'd all be happy to have more non-Australian input to the article. It is already good, but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that an awful lot of non-Australians who see this want to stay well clear because they see a whole load of ridiculous conversations going on on this talk page, mainly about things that aren't worth discussing. I'm not claiming that anyone has been perfect, and it's not worth arguing about who started it, but somehow now most of the discussion seems to be attacking each other rather than discussing the article. There have been, and still are, opportunities for the shire boys to put their points and answer the constructive repsonses that their comments have received, if they want to. However, as I said before, if they and the rest of us keep responding angrily to the more silly statements and accusations (whether they were intended as good faith humour or are the result of users being fed up with the silly arguments), then we're not going to get anywhere. As someone who has been insulted personally or collectively by both "sides" of the argument, can I ask that everyone actually listen to the points other users are making, and not assume that every point made is evidence of a "fraternity" with an agenda - these sort of assumptions are what lead to people taking sides. JPD ( talk) 12:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I dispute the result due to the fact that one user has been banned on no real basis. J is me was banned first for doing no more than what Grant65 had done, though admittedly in my opinion acting in bad faith, and now has been banned for logging in "anonymously" with out any evidence. Snottygobble is out of line. Anyhow this has robbed one potential voter and in my opinion was completely deliberate. Also I object to some of the votes on the basis that they have been ids created since the first poll began. I have already objected to this -- Licinius 06:03, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear. Several of the voters were new identities and as such contestable. Also judging by the comments, very few actually knew what the poll was about. -- Licinius 13:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
There have been two articles that have appeared in the sports section of The Age newspaper over the last two days that are of great interest to us. In yesterday's edition, I read that Australia Post is about to release a series of stamps to celebrate the Socceroos' attempt to embark on the impossible dream (not meaning to be disrespectful, simply an honest assessment). This new series of stamps is entitled "Soccer in Australia". When the General Manager of Australia Post was asked why use the term "soccer", he simply said that it was Australia Post's view that that is the name used by the majority of Australians, and that the word football is saved for the more dominant code of a particular area, i.e. aussie rules or league.
In today's edition, there was a great article about the proposal to heritage list the Melbourne Football Club, the oldest football club in Australia (in any code) and the third oldest in the world (in any code). It was formed in 1858, the year in which we have the first recorded game of aussie rules, the game being codified in the following year, making the game older than Association Football. Interestingly, it was once thought that the Geelong Football Club was the second oldest club in Australia (formed in July 1859), but there is now new evidence indicating that the Castlemaine Football Club was in fact formed in June 1859. That makes it the 5th oldest club in the world, and Geelong the 6th oldest club in the world. I can't recall where we list the oldest football clubs in the world, but this is what The Age says:
(although I would have thought that Carlton Football Club was pre 1862). ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)