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I had shortened the background historical sections, particularly pre-WWI, and put a link to Dalmatia where much of this is already mentioned. Recently this was reverted to the previous massive background history with an Italian nationalistic POV. This POV background section is completely different from similar sections in other Wikipedia articles, where the background section is much shorter. See for example, the Flight and Expulsion of Germans - it does not have long sections on Germanic migrations, Teutonic knights, the Prussian Kingdom which extended into present-day Poland, etc. (incidentally, per the Italian nationalistic POV promoted here, much of Italy is obviously German, Arabic and Spanish since it was for centuries under such rule (Lombards, Normans, the German-led Holy Roman Empire, Austria, etc), same as Dalmatia under Venice
I'd like to hear from other editors and Admins on wether the pre-WWI background section should be shortened. Thhhommmasss ( talk) 17:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
References
I'd like to see some Admin intervention for the repeat POV-pushing by Est2021. In his latest edit, he repeated as a general view claims that Slavs were supposedly killed only because they wanted to maintain Italian citizenship, when at least a dozen historians I cited make no such claims (I had moved this claim to the second paragraph, indicating this is the view of some, for which he cites only one journalist, but he reverted it as a general claim)
He also repeatedly keeps changing my edits where I say historians "noted", to "argue", when in fact these historians provide extensive evidence for what they state - e.g. analyses of hundreds of victims that show that the vast majority killed were in fact members of fascist forces, and I cite specific data in the footnote. I make no claim that all victims were members of fascist forces, and the article states that victims included political opponents
He also deleted my edit where I cite many critics of the way the foibe are commemorated. And as mentioned before, he previously reverted my efforts to shorten the Background section, which is much longer than background sections in other Wikipedia articles. For example, the 1944–50 flight and expulsion of Germans article does not go back to Germanic migrations, Teutonic knights taking territory in the East, etc, unlike the long historical sections here. All this history is already covered in the Dalmatia article, and the main purpose of repeating same here, seems to be to make Italian irredentist claims, based on the Venetian Empire's conquests and rule over these areas prior to 1797 (as illustrated by the map at beginning of background section, showing Venetian Empire at maximum extent, overlayed by Slav-majority areas Italy demanded in 1915 to join the Allies in WWI, and also the borders after fascist Italy invaded and annexed parts of 99%-Slavic Dalmatia) Thhhommmasss ( talk) 09:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
There are multiple references to unauthoritative sources, like the newspaper La Repubblica, as to what happened in 1945. The journalist Petacco and other similar sources also fall into this category. Better sources need to be found (i.e. reputable historians, etc,) and all such sources deleted. Thhhommmasss ( talk) 00:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
The lead claims that Dalmatia was occupied by Italy when these foibe killings occurred. The Italians surrendered in September 1943, and withdrew from the parts of Yugoslavia they were occupying. And the killings occurred after that. So this is not correct. Dalmatia was abandoned by them under the surrender terms and was partly occupied by the Partisans for some time, then by the Germans when they recovered the occupied territory. The Germans then occupied the lot and part of it became the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Littoral, the rest was reclaimed by the German-occupied NDH. This article needs to properly explain the occupation regimes at the time of the killings, not make claims about the lands being Italian controlled when they were not. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to list concerns about some of the sources being used here, as a result of discussions on the similar Bleiburg article. Feel free to chime in with responses:
Silvia Ferretto Clementi's website indicates she is an Italian politician who completed a political science degree (with a thesis on the foibe apparently), but it isn't clear if this was a masters or PhD equivalent. For the claims being made in the lead using her as a source, I definitely do not think she is a credible academic, and we need high quality sources, and preferably not ones that may have an apprehended bias. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Giorgio Napolitano was an (very eminent) Italian politician who was a qualified lawyer, and the citation is to a speech he made early in his presidency. There can be no sense that his words have been subjected to any sort of editorial checking for accuracy, so this is merely his opinion. It cannot be used as a source for the foibe killings being "ethnic cleansing", and I have removed it. This footnote appears to be a case of citation bombing to try to push a POV. Quality academics may well state they were "ethnic cleansing" but we cannot use Napolitano's speech to support such a claim. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I have been unable to resolve the dead link for the Italian Red Cross page via Wayback Machine. I will try it again a few more times, but if it hasn't been archived, it will have to be removed because it cannot be verified. I will however attempt to find something from the ICRC, because that would be better than the Italian Red Cross, due to the greater role in international humanitarian law. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:16, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, nah. We are not using a travel guide as a source for this article. Deleting. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I note that the question of people wishing to retain Italian citizenship is solely cited to an online encyclopaedia. This is a tertiary source, and don't consider this a high enough quality source for this subject, as if it was the case, the intercountry commission or Pupo would have mentioned it. I will check those sources for a reference to it being an issue, but if it does not appear there, or no-one is able to put a high quality academic source to it, I'll be removing it. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
This doesn't even have page numbers, but the linked page 20 which is by Naimark, says the numbers range from one or two thousand to 20,000. He doesn't just say 20,000 as the article seems to indicate. I will try to find a copy and check what the book says about the killings and add pages, as presently this is very hard to verify. It is also attributed at least partly incorrectly, as Naimark is the author of this early chapter. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
There are a number of otherwise reliable sources on the general subject of ethnic cleansing or genocide that are being given far too much weight here when there are specific scholarly sources focussed on the foibe that are available. A passing mention of the foibe in a general text on ethnic cleansing should be given a low weight on this article. A chapter specifically on the foibe in a more general book or as the subject of a journal article should be given greater weight, and the greatest weight should be given to academic quality book-length investigations of the foibe, especially those that have been carried out by joint authors or researchers from Italy, Slovenia and Croatia, or by scholars from uninvolved countries. At present, some of the first type are being used to support material that just isn't supported by the more specific sources. This gives them far too much weight. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
For clarity;
The weighting of sources needs to reflect the above if this article is to have any chance of meeting WP standards. This weighting also needs to be applied to the scope. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't know whether this article had a disputed tag on it before, but it should have one. Just a few hours looking at some of the sources for the ethnic cleansing claims shows that both Pupo and the Slovenian-Italian Commission (both highly reliable sources) agreed that it wasn't ethnic cleansing, but that the killings targeted people for political reasons, because they were collaborators and/or fascists etc. Balkan Insight, a highly reliable news source on the Balkan region, says that the ethnic cleansing narrative is being driven by right-wing Italian politicians. I will continue to examine sources and make edits until the article takes a NPOV and reflects the consensus academic position and identifies fringe views for what they are. As it stands the article is highly misleading, especially in the lead and infobox, but there are also extensive issues in the body. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:08, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Why on earth is the infobox image a photograph of a foibe used by a criminal gang to dispose of its victims, when the article is about sites used by the Yugoslav state to dispose of victims? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 05:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I had already shortened the first 2 Background sections, Ancient Times and Austrian Empire, which are largely irrelevant here, and in any case the same history is already covered in articles on Dalmatia and elsewhere. Est2021 reverted my edits, I suggest we go back the shorter version. Here's the diff: Foibe massacres: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia Thhhommmasss ( talk) 19:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
I will repeat what I said before. I think the map showing the Roman and Venetian Empires, and 1915 Treaty of London proposals, needs to be deleted from the Background section. This is the same as if the article on the 1940's Greco-Italian War started off with a map of Roman and Venetian Empire holdings in Greece, plus Treaty of London promises of parts of Greece to Italy. I.e this would just repeat fascist imperial claims to Greece, which they used to justify the Italian invasion/occupation of Greece, same as such a map is used in the Foibe article to repeat such claims, which were used to justify the Italian invasion/occupation of Dalmatia, along with other parts of Yugoslavia Thhhommmasss ( talk) 21:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
The local populace, italianized under Venice, reverted back to Slavic languages, assuming against any source that Istrian Italians and Dalmatian Italians were just italianized Slavs, not ethnic Italians, and that Slavic languages were their natural state. Please, revert this idiocy. Est. 2021 ( talk · contribs) 16:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The local populace, italianized under Venice, reverted back to Slavic languages, that needed a revert. Est. 2021 ( talk · contribs) 21:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The Italian-Slovene Commission doesn’t mention Franz Joseph, instead starts in 1880, with rising nationalism on both sides, compounded by the coastal/Italian vs. inland/Slavic split, and class divides. Italy suppressed all local languages, impacting Slovenes in Venice province. In the Julian March, under Austria, Slovenes started asserting their language and political rights, which local Italian authorities, until then the ruling elite, repressed. Slovenes resisted Italianization and had a more favorable view of Austria (but only in the Littoral, elsewhere Slovene nationalism focused on resisting Germanization and Austrian rule). Slovene-Italian relations deteriorated further during WWI, as Italy demanded areas with large Slovene and Croat majorities, to enter the war on the Entente side. This parallels what Pericic writes for Dalmatia, where the Italian-speaking minority retained political power, keeping Italian as the only official language. Things changed when the Austrian Empire lowered property requirements for voting, allowing more poorer strata to vote, leading to victories for Slavic parties in 1870 in Dalmatia, and equal rights for Slavic languages in 1883.
I’m going to rewrite the Austria section to reflect this and delete the Franz Joseph quote. Population data from the 1910 Austrian census on ethnic composition of Istria and Dalmatia, should be retained
Thhhommmasss ( talk) 05:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The intro cites only 3 media sources for this claim that victims were thrown alive into foibe
The term refers to some victims who were thrown alive into the foibe. [1] [2] [3]
I have not seen any such claims of people being thrown alive in Pupo and Baracetti. I would like the Admins to present their views of use of media sources on controversial historical events from nearly 90 years ago Thhhommmasss ( talk) 21:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
La ricorrenza istituita nel 2004 nell'anniversario dei trattati di Parigi, che assegnavano l'Istria alla Jugoslavia. Si ricordano gli italiani vittime dei massacri messi in atto dai partigiani e dai Servizi jugoslavi.[The anniversary [was] established in 2004 on the anniversary of the Paris treaties, which assigned Istria to Yugoslavia. We remember the Italians victims of the massacres carried out by the partisans and the Yugoslav services.]
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Foibe massacres article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I had shortened the background historical sections, particularly pre-WWI, and put a link to Dalmatia where much of this is already mentioned. Recently this was reverted to the previous massive background history with an Italian nationalistic POV. This POV background section is completely different from similar sections in other Wikipedia articles, where the background section is much shorter. See for example, the Flight and Expulsion of Germans - it does not have long sections on Germanic migrations, Teutonic knights, the Prussian Kingdom which extended into present-day Poland, etc. (incidentally, per the Italian nationalistic POV promoted here, much of Italy is obviously German, Arabic and Spanish since it was for centuries under such rule (Lombards, Normans, the German-led Holy Roman Empire, Austria, etc), same as Dalmatia under Venice
I'd like to hear from other editors and Admins on wether the pre-WWI background section should be shortened. Thhhommmasss ( talk) 17:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
References
I'd like to see some Admin intervention for the repeat POV-pushing by Est2021. In his latest edit, he repeated as a general view claims that Slavs were supposedly killed only because they wanted to maintain Italian citizenship, when at least a dozen historians I cited make no such claims (I had moved this claim to the second paragraph, indicating this is the view of some, for which he cites only one journalist, but he reverted it as a general claim)
He also repeatedly keeps changing my edits where I say historians "noted", to "argue", when in fact these historians provide extensive evidence for what they state - e.g. analyses of hundreds of victims that show that the vast majority killed were in fact members of fascist forces, and I cite specific data in the footnote. I make no claim that all victims were members of fascist forces, and the article states that victims included political opponents
He also deleted my edit where I cite many critics of the way the foibe are commemorated. And as mentioned before, he previously reverted my efforts to shorten the Background section, which is much longer than background sections in other Wikipedia articles. For example, the 1944–50 flight and expulsion of Germans article does not go back to Germanic migrations, Teutonic knights taking territory in the East, etc, unlike the long historical sections here. All this history is already covered in the Dalmatia article, and the main purpose of repeating same here, seems to be to make Italian irredentist claims, based on the Venetian Empire's conquests and rule over these areas prior to 1797 (as illustrated by the map at beginning of background section, showing Venetian Empire at maximum extent, overlayed by Slav-majority areas Italy demanded in 1915 to join the Allies in WWI, and also the borders after fascist Italy invaded and annexed parts of 99%-Slavic Dalmatia) Thhhommmasss ( talk) 09:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
There are multiple references to unauthoritative sources, like the newspaper La Repubblica, as to what happened in 1945. The journalist Petacco and other similar sources also fall into this category. Better sources need to be found (i.e. reputable historians, etc,) and all such sources deleted. Thhhommmasss ( talk) 00:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
The lead claims that Dalmatia was occupied by Italy when these foibe killings occurred. The Italians surrendered in September 1943, and withdrew from the parts of Yugoslavia they were occupying. And the killings occurred after that. So this is not correct. Dalmatia was abandoned by them under the surrender terms and was partly occupied by the Partisans for some time, then by the Germans when they recovered the occupied territory. The Germans then occupied the lot and part of it became the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Littoral, the rest was reclaimed by the German-occupied NDH. This article needs to properly explain the occupation regimes at the time of the killings, not make claims about the lands being Italian controlled when they were not. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to list concerns about some of the sources being used here, as a result of discussions on the similar Bleiburg article. Feel free to chime in with responses:
Silvia Ferretto Clementi's website indicates she is an Italian politician who completed a political science degree (with a thesis on the foibe apparently), but it isn't clear if this was a masters or PhD equivalent. For the claims being made in the lead using her as a source, I definitely do not think she is a credible academic, and we need high quality sources, and preferably not ones that may have an apprehended bias. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Giorgio Napolitano was an (very eminent) Italian politician who was a qualified lawyer, and the citation is to a speech he made early in his presidency. There can be no sense that his words have been subjected to any sort of editorial checking for accuracy, so this is merely his opinion. It cannot be used as a source for the foibe killings being "ethnic cleansing", and I have removed it. This footnote appears to be a case of citation bombing to try to push a POV. Quality academics may well state they were "ethnic cleansing" but we cannot use Napolitano's speech to support such a claim. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 04:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I have been unable to resolve the dead link for the Italian Red Cross page via Wayback Machine. I will try it again a few more times, but if it hasn't been archived, it will have to be removed because it cannot be verified. I will however attempt to find something from the ICRC, because that would be better than the Italian Red Cross, due to the greater role in international humanitarian law. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:16, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, nah. We are not using a travel guide as a source for this article. Deleting. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I note that the question of people wishing to retain Italian citizenship is solely cited to an online encyclopaedia. This is a tertiary source, and don't consider this a high enough quality source for this subject, as if it was the case, the intercountry commission or Pupo would have mentioned it. I will check those sources for a reference to it being an issue, but if it does not appear there, or no-one is able to put a high quality academic source to it, I'll be removing it. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
This doesn't even have page numbers, but the linked page 20 which is by Naimark, says the numbers range from one or two thousand to 20,000. He doesn't just say 20,000 as the article seems to indicate. I will try to find a copy and check what the book says about the killings and add pages, as presently this is very hard to verify. It is also attributed at least partly incorrectly, as Naimark is the author of this early chapter. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
There are a number of otherwise reliable sources on the general subject of ethnic cleansing or genocide that are being given far too much weight here when there are specific scholarly sources focussed on the foibe that are available. A passing mention of the foibe in a general text on ethnic cleansing should be given a low weight on this article. A chapter specifically on the foibe in a more general book or as the subject of a journal article should be given greater weight, and the greatest weight should be given to academic quality book-length investigations of the foibe, especially those that have been carried out by joint authors or researchers from Italy, Slovenia and Croatia, or by scholars from uninvolved countries. At present, some of the first type are being used to support material that just isn't supported by the more specific sources. This gives them far too much weight. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
For clarity;
The weighting of sources needs to reflect the above if this article is to have any chance of meeting WP standards. This weighting also needs to be applied to the scope. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't know whether this article had a disputed tag on it before, but it should have one. Just a few hours looking at some of the sources for the ethnic cleansing claims shows that both Pupo and the Slovenian-Italian Commission (both highly reliable sources) agreed that it wasn't ethnic cleansing, but that the killings targeted people for political reasons, because they were collaborators and/or fascists etc. Balkan Insight, a highly reliable news source on the Balkan region, says that the ethnic cleansing narrative is being driven by right-wing Italian politicians. I will continue to examine sources and make edits until the article takes a NPOV and reflects the consensus academic position and identifies fringe views for what they are. As it stands the article is highly misleading, especially in the lead and infobox, but there are also extensive issues in the body. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:08, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Why on earth is the infobox image a photograph of a foibe used by a criminal gang to dispose of its victims, when the article is about sites used by the Yugoslav state to dispose of victims? Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 05:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I had already shortened the first 2 Background sections, Ancient Times and Austrian Empire, which are largely irrelevant here, and in any case the same history is already covered in articles on Dalmatia and elsewhere. Est2021 reverted my edits, I suggest we go back the shorter version. Here's the diff: Foibe massacres: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia Thhhommmasss ( talk) 19:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
I will repeat what I said before. I think the map showing the Roman and Venetian Empires, and 1915 Treaty of London proposals, needs to be deleted from the Background section. This is the same as if the article on the 1940's Greco-Italian War started off with a map of Roman and Venetian Empire holdings in Greece, plus Treaty of London promises of parts of Greece to Italy. I.e this would just repeat fascist imperial claims to Greece, which they used to justify the Italian invasion/occupation of Greece, same as such a map is used in the Foibe article to repeat such claims, which were used to justify the Italian invasion/occupation of Dalmatia, along with other parts of Yugoslavia Thhhommmasss ( talk) 21:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
The local populace, italianized under Venice, reverted back to Slavic languages, assuming against any source that Istrian Italians and Dalmatian Italians were just italianized Slavs, not ethnic Italians, and that Slavic languages were their natural state. Please, revert this idiocy. Est. 2021 ( talk · contribs) 16:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The local populace, italianized under Venice, reverted back to Slavic languages, that needed a revert. Est. 2021 ( talk · contribs) 21:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The Italian-Slovene Commission doesn’t mention Franz Joseph, instead starts in 1880, with rising nationalism on both sides, compounded by the coastal/Italian vs. inland/Slavic split, and class divides. Italy suppressed all local languages, impacting Slovenes in Venice province. In the Julian March, under Austria, Slovenes started asserting their language and political rights, which local Italian authorities, until then the ruling elite, repressed. Slovenes resisted Italianization and had a more favorable view of Austria (but only in the Littoral, elsewhere Slovene nationalism focused on resisting Germanization and Austrian rule). Slovene-Italian relations deteriorated further during WWI, as Italy demanded areas with large Slovene and Croat majorities, to enter the war on the Entente side. This parallels what Pericic writes for Dalmatia, where the Italian-speaking minority retained political power, keeping Italian as the only official language. Things changed when the Austrian Empire lowered property requirements for voting, allowing more poorer strata to vote, leading to victories for Slavic parties in 1870 in Dalmatia, and equal rights for Slavic languages in 1883.
I’m going to rewrite the Austria section to reflect this and delete the Franz Joseph quote. Population data from the 1910 Austrian census on ethnic composition of Istria and Dalmatia, should be retained
Thhhommmasss ( talk) 05:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The intro cites only 3 media sources for this claim that victims were thrown alive into foibe
The term refers to some victims who were thrown alive into the foibe. [1] [2] [3]
I have not seen any such claims of people being thrown alive in Pupo and Baracetti. I would like the Admins to present their views of use of media sources on controversial historical events from nearly 90 years ago Thhhommmasss ( talk) 21:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
La ricorrenza istituita nel 2004 nell'anniversario dei trattati di Parigi, che assegnavano l'Istria alla Jugoslavia. Si ricordano gli italiani vittime dei massacri messi in atto dai partigiani e dai Servizi jugoslavi.[The anniversary [was] established in 2004 on the anniversary of the Paris treaties, which assigned Istria to Yugoslavia. We remember the Italians victims of the massacres carried out by the partisans and the Yugoslav services.]