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This article should cover the missing hispanics in the 2004 purge list. From 20 July 2004 New York times article (author Fessenden), titled Florida List for Purged Voters Proves Flawed: "Of nearly 48,000 Florida residents on the felon list, only 61 are Hispanic. By contrast, more than 22,000 are African-American. About 8 percent of Florida voters describe themselves as Hispanic, and about 11 percent are black."
I used Lexis-Nexus to find 3 New York Times articles which Ford Fessenden authored or co-authored:
there are no insinuations in this aricle. there are statements of relevant and significant fact.
the phone call is a statement by the vice president of the company that made the central voting file for 2000. I fail to see how a factual statement from the source in question is a non-factual opinion from a source other than the source in question. Kevin Baas | talk 21:57, 2004 Aug 27 (UTC)
The page is a list of facts compiled from multiple sources and corroborated. The primary sources are listed at the end of the article.
The facts are laid out chronologically, without interpretation or extrapolation. If, in putting the facts together, one forms an overall picture and draws certain conclusions, that does not mean that the article is not npov. That is their own synthesis of the information and their own conclusion that they are coming to. The sentiment invoked by that conclusion is not proof of pov. Kevin Baas | talk 16:55, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
Find me a false statement in the article. Kevin Baas | talk 17:32, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
Appeals is not a reliable measure. This is clear because of the great number and extent of mistakes made. Besides the fact that people who knew that they were felons probably wouldn't bother appealing. And people who are felons generally know that they are. Giving this, one should expect that the vast majority of those appealing are non-felons, yet, non-felons' appeals were rejected at a significant -seemingly arbitrary- frequency.
It is not required that the distribution be homogenous in order for the sample to be representative, as you have suggested now in the article. It requires only that we have no knowledge about the distribution. In this case, we have no knowledge about the distribution, as you have suggested in the article. The extension to the larger sample size includes this lack of knowledge in the confidence level. It is misleading to say that these have not been taken into account when indeed they have. Kevin Baas | talk 17:47, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
And you're arbitrarily ommiting the verifiable fact that none of the names on the felon list were hispanic?!?! Kevin Baas | talk 17:51, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
I'm sorry, it turns out that there were 61 hispanics on the 2000 list. That's not to say that there were 61 people listed as hispanic on the list. But the 2004 list is new and improved: 0% hispanics total. Those hispanics are angels ;). I wonder how much it cost them to do that. Kevin Baas | talk 18:18, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
Then this supports my view that the supposed wrongly "disenfranchished" by and large were either properly barred from voting or did not care about voting anyway. In either case, they were not "disenfranchised". No harm, no foul. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:37, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, this is about appeals, not about voting. Secondly, even if it were about voting, it would still be completely irrelevant: what's relevant is whether elgible voters were purged from the voter rolls, regardless of whether or not they voted. Thirdly, even if it were, by some contortion of context, relevant, your stated conclusion would not logically follow. There are a number of separate issues here. I think you are getting them confused.
There is one relevant fact in regards to disenfranchisement: eligible voters did not have the opportunity to vote in the election in question. Kevin Baas | talk 23:41, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
No. A vote is the most valuable possesion a person can ever have. It is wrong to take it away. It is morally wrong and absolutely inexcusable and intolerable to remove even one elgible voter from a voter role, regardless of whether or not they use their right to vote. Period.
It was systematic. The election supervisors were given orders by the State of Florida to remove elgible voters from voter rolls. The State of Florida had full knowledge that the list contained an inordinate amount of elgible voters before giving these orders. That was wrong. Very wrong.
These hard facts are not propaganda. They are reality. And no, it's not pleasant. Reality isn't always pleasant, but it is worse if we do not have the courage to acknowledge the unpleasant things, and deal with the world as it is before us. Kevin Baas | talk 00:38, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)
What is the 1998 Florida law that mandated the Central Voter file? I've found "statute 98", which gives me crap in google, and "HR 1428", which gives me lots of hits that seem relevant, but I don't know if it has passed, and if it's a Florida state bill (it seems federal!)
It's been a while since the last discussion went on in this page, so I figured out I could do some cleanup without asking first. I haven't touched the meaning, only the form, but my impression is that the POV dispute tag can be removed. The information is presented correctly (if a bit too profusely) and has its sources clearly referenced. The "other side" has not spoken, maybe because the cold figures are enough. The article doesn't imply that there was electoral fraud (except as personal opinions, quoted and attributed).
So, what do we do with the NPOV and the cleanup tags?
Informal call for votes (add below):
OPINION The article still represents a POV (though one I strongly agree with). Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
SUGGESTION Perhaps need to reframe (retitle) article as a historical article describing "Post 2000 Controversies over FL Elections" of which the Florida Voter file plays a central role rather than posing as an objective article about the Florida Voter File -- were it not for the controversies -- why would the general reader care about voter files in general or the Florida Voter File in particular? Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
SUGGESTION Bigger 2006 STORY is that January 2006 is the deadline (for 49 of the 50 states) under the US federal law named "Help America Vote Act (HAVA)" for implementing a statewide voter registration database and that several of the states (Alabama, Colorado, Nevada, Wisconson and Wyoming) are not meeting the deadline.
MY POV -- HAVA could cause what happened with FL Voter File in 2004 to go national this year and in 2008.
SOURCES: 1) Table showing contractor & status for all 50 US states (compiled aobve list from table):
http://electionline.org/Default.aspx?tabid=288
2) Nevada won't meet deadline http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051228/NEWS10/512280336/1016/NEWS
3) Additional background information on HAVA implementation (6 months old): http://electionline.org/Portals/1/AssortedRolls.Accessible.doc Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
With respect to legal requirements for centrallized voter file. FVRS = Florida Voter Registration System "State legislation passed in 2003 (HB 29-B, Chapter 2003-415, Laws of Florida) and federal legislation passed in 2002 [Public Law 107-252, Help America Vote Act (HAVA)] specifically outline requirements for a centralized voter registration system. See http://election.dos.state.fl.us/hava/fvrs/hava_req.html" SOURCE: Footnote 1, page 2, "Guide to FVRS," Version 1.0, September 7, 2005 PDF file. http://election.dos.state.fl.us/hava/fvrs/pdf/fvrs_guide.pdf Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
"The Florida Central Voter File is a list of legally eligible voters..." ... "Those who are deemed mentally incompetent are not included on the list, although they are legally considered to be ineligible voters."
This makes no sense, but I don't know which bit is at fault. My best guesses at the moment would be that "although" should be "as" or that ineligible in the second extract should be eligible.
I am making some edits here aimed towards accuracy and NPOV. If you have issues with my edits, please discusss them with me here, prior to any wholsale reverts of my efforts. I am taking care to seek NPOV and accuracy. Merecat 19:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
..more to come. Kevin Baas talk 21:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that this article, as was currently composed, is in some ways incomprehensible. If indeed there are sources for all the assertions made in this article, then in situ links, as per all normal wiki pages, ought to be used. There is simply no valid reason to make bold statements or post bold quotes on a controversial topic and then force the readers to seek the corroboration themselves. I have added the "cleanup" tag. Merecat 20:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, you appear to be following me around the wiki, posting argumentative comments to my postings, even those not directed to you. I don't like it and if that's what you are doing, I want you to stop it. [3] [4] That said, on this issue of including the Ashcroft angle in this article, you are still wrong. At no time was the issue of the Florida Central Voter File part of Ashcroft's inquiry. For you to suggest that it was by including it here is POV and factually wrong. On the other hand, if you find a reliable NPOV source that says it was, I will support you on this. Not until. Merecat 22:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You cannot simply assert a baseline, you have to have citations for it. Then, regarding any deviations from that baseline regarding this issue, you also have to cite experts who assert that there is deviation "exceeding reasonable limits" or it's POV and conjecture ( OR) to say "inordinate". As for debacles, there probably is not any other recent big voter file SNAFUs - but this argues against your assertion that a baseline has been established. If there are no a priori (or subsequent) events to compare to, you can't claim inordinate as there is no baseline. However, I gave leeway on this and referred to large data files in general. The place to look for information about what's "inordinate" on a data file would probably be something like the USPS new movers list or TRW / Experian / TransUnion credit reporting companies. In fact, it's common knowledge that credit reporting companies get many things about a person's history wrong all the time. It's not as easy as you think, to keep an accurate large list regarding people. I find it very unlikely that "inordinate" is going to pass muster here. Example: On occassion, I've received parking tickets for places I am certain I have never been. Several times so far, it's turned out that the license plate was entered in the system in error and I was able to clear it up. That's a false positive. You are looking for conspiracies where none exist. If you stepped back from this, you'd see that the biggest reason for the disproportionate error rate against blacks is socioeconomic. In FL, on average, blacks caught in the legal system have less financial and education resources available to them. For that reason, making sure that their residental address records (keeping updated drivers license records when people move, get suspended or revoked) and legal records (getting fair treatment in the courts) is harder for them. In any society, the downtrodden are shunted aside and the records regarding them are inherently less accurate. Try keeping an accurate roster of Los Angeles homeless persons and you will see what I mean. Take the New Orleans evacuees - large numbers of them are not even accounted for yet. These are issues of social justice, not malfeasance by FL. Merecat 00:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
What is? The word "favorably"? The use of "favorably" here, without NPOV citation to expert opinion on legal matters is POV, OR, conjecture. Merecat 22:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
..more to come. Kevin Baas talk 21:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that's the last of the edits. Kevin Baas talk 21:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Is the picture of "Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris" relevant? (I'm thinking it is just the best picture anyone can think of to attach to this article.) RJFJR ( talk) 15:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
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This article should cover the missing hispanics in the 2004 purge list. From 20 July 2004 New York times article (author Fessenden), titled Florida List for Purged Voters Proves Flawed: "Of nearly 48,000 Florida residents on the felon list, only 61 are Hispanic. By contrast, more than 22,000 are African-American. About 8 percent of Florida voters describe themselves as Hispanic, and about 11 percent are black."
I used Lexis-Nexus to find 3 New York Times articles which Ford Fessenden authored or co-authored:
there are no insinuations in this aricle. there are statements of relevant and significant fact.
the phone call is a statement by the vice president of the company that made the central voting file for 2000. I fail to see how a factual statement from the source in question is a non-factual opinion from a source other than the source in question. Kevin Baas | talk 21:57, 2004 Aug 27 (UTC)
The page is a list of facts compiled from multiple sources and corroborated. The primary sources are listed at the end of the article.
The facts are laid out chronologically, without interpretation or extrapolation. If, in putting the facts together, one forms an overall picture and draws certain conclusions, that does not mean that the article is not npov. That is their own synthesis of the information and their own conclusion that they are coming to. The sentiment invoked by that conclusion is not proof of pov. Kevin Baas | talk 16:55, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
Find me a false statement in the article. Kevin Baas | talk 17:32, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
Appeals is not a reliable measure. This is clear because of the great number and extent of mistakes made. Besides the fact that people who knew that they were felons probably wouldn't bother appealing. And people who are felons generally know that they are. Giving this, one should expect that the vast majority of those appealing are non-felons, yet, non-felons' appeals were rejected at a significant -seemingly arbitrary- frequency.
It is not required that the distribution be homogenous in order for the sample to be representative, as you have suggested now in the article. It requires only that we have no knowledge about the distribution. In this case, we have no knowledge about the distribution, as you have suggested in the article. The extension to the larger sample size includes this lack of knowledge in the confidence level. It is misleading to say that these have not been taken into account when indeed they have. Kevin Baas | talk 17:47, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
And you're arbitrarily ommiting the verifiable fact that none of the names on the felon list were hispanic?!?! Kevin Baas | talk 17:51, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
I'm sorry, it turns out that there were 61 hispanics on the 2000 list. That's not to say that there were 61 people listed as hispanic on the list. But the 2004 list is new and improved: 0% hispanics total. Those hispanics are angels ;). I wonder how much it cost them to do that. Kevin Baas | talk 18:18, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
Then this supports my view that the supposed wrongly "disenfranchished" by and large were either properly barred from voting or did not care about voting anyway. In either case, they were not "disenfranchised". No harm, no foul. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:37, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, this is about appeals, not about voting. Secondly, even if it were about voting, it would still be completely irrelevant: what's relevant is whether elgible voters were purged from the voter rolls, regardless of whether or not they voted. Thirdly, even if it were, by some contortion of context, relevant, your stated conclusion would not logically follow. There are a number of separate issues here. I think you are getting them confused.
There is one relevant fact in regards to disenfranchisement: eligible voters did not have the opportunity to vote in the election in question. Kevin Baas | talk 23:41, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)
No. A vote is the most valuable possesion a person can ever have. It is wrong to take it away. It is morally wrong and absolutely inexcusable and intolerable to remove even one elgible voter from a voter role, regardless of whether or not they use their right to vote. Period.
It was systematic. The election supervisors were given orders by the State of Florida to remove elgible voters from voter rolls. The State of Florida had full knowledge that the list contained an inordinate amount of elgible voters before giving these orders. That was wrong. Very wrong.
These hard facts are not propaganda. They are reality. And no, it's not pleasant. Reality isn't always pleasant, but it is worse if we do not have the courage to acknowledge the unpleasant things, and deal with the world as it is before us. Kevin Baas | talk 00:38, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)
What is the 1998 Florida law that mandated the Central Voter file? I've found "statute 98", which gives me crap in google, and "HR 1428", which gives me lots of hits that seem relevant, but I don't know if it has passed, and if it's a Florida state bill (it seems federal!)
It's been a while since the last discussion went on in this page, so I figured out I could do some cleanup without asking first. I haven't touched the meaning, only the form, but my impression is that the POV dispute tag can be removed. The information is presented correctly (if a bit too profusely) and has its sources clearly referenced. The "other side" has not spoken, maybe because the cold figures are enough. The article doesn't imply that there was electoral fraud (except as personal opinions, quoted and attributed).
So, what do we do with the NPOV and the cleanup tags?
Informal call for votes (add below):
OPINION The article still represents a POV (though one I strongly agree with). Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
SUGGESTION Perhaps need to reframe (retitle) article as a historical article describing "Post 2000 Controversies over FL Elections" of which the Florida Voter file plays a central role rather than posing as an objective article about the Florida Voter File -- were it not for the controversies -- why would the general reader care about voter files in general or the Florida Voter File in particular? Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
SUGGESTION Bigger 2006 STORY is that January 2006 is the deadline (for 49 of the 50 states) under the US federal law named "Help America Vote Act (HAVA)" for implementing a statewide voter registration database and that several of the states (Alabama, Colorado, Nevada, Wisconson and Wyoming) are not meeting the deadline.
MY POV -- HAVA could cause what happened with FL Voter File in 2004 to go national this year and in 2008.
SOURCES: 1) Table showing contractor & status for all 50 US states (compiled aobve list from table):
http://electionline.org/Default.aspx?tabid=288
2) Nevada won't meet deadline http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051228/NEWS10/512280336/1016/NEWS
3) Additional background information on HAVA implementation (6 months old): http://electionline.org/Portals/1/AssortedRolls.Accessible.doc Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
With respect to legal requirements for centrallized voter file. FVRS = Florida Voter Registration System "State legislation passed in 2003 (HB 29-B, Chapter 2003-415, Laws of Florida) and federal legislation passed in 2002 [Public Law 107-252, Help America Vote Act (HAVA)] specifically outline requirements for a centralized voter registration system. See http://election.dos.state.fl.us/hava/fvrs/hava_req.html" SOURCE: Footnote 1, page 2, "Guide to FVRS," Version 1.0, September 7, 2005 PDF file. http://election.dos.state.fl.us/hava/fvrs/pdf/fvrs_guide.pdf Jim Callahan <JimCal80@aol.com>
"The Florida Central Voter File is a list of legally eligible voters..." ... "Those who are deemed mentally incompetent are not included on the list, although they are legally considered to be ineligible voters."
This makes no sense, but I don't know which bit is at fault. My best guesses at the moment would be that "although" should be "as" or that ineligible in the second extract should be eligible.
I am making some edits here aimed towards accuracy and NPOV. If you have issues with my edits, please discusss them with me here, prior to any wholsale reverts of my efforts. I am taking care to seek NPOV and accuracy. Merecat 19:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
..more to come. Kevin Baas talk 21:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that this article, as was currently composed, is in some ways incomprehensible. If indeed there are sources for all the assertions made in this article, then in situ links, as per all normal wiki pages, ought to be used. There is simply no valid reason to make bold statements or post bold quotes on a controversial topic and then force the readers to seek the corroboration themselves. I have added the "cleanup" tag. Merecat 20:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, you appear to be following me around the wiki, posting argumentative comments to my postings, even those not directed to you. I don't like it and if that's what you are doing, I want you to stop it. [3] [4] That said, on this issue of including the Ashcroft angle in this article, you are still wrong. At no time was the issue of the Florida Central Voter File part of Ashcroft's inquiry. For you to suggest that it was by including it here is POV and factually wrong. On the other hand, if you find a reliable NPOV source that says it was, I will support you on this. Not until. Merecat 22:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You cannot simply assert a baseline, you have to have citations for it. Then, regarding any deviations from that baseline regarding this issue, you also have to cite experts who assert that there is deviation "exceeding reasonable limits" or it's POV and conjecture ( OR) to say "inordinate". As for debacles, there probably is not any other recent big voter file SNAFUs - but this argues against your assertion that a baseline has been established. If there are no a priori (or subsequent) events to compare to, you can't claim inordinate as there is no baseline. However, I gave leeway on this and referred to large data files in general. The place to look for information about what's "inordinate" on a data file would probably be something like the USPS new movers list or TRW / Experian / TransUnion credit reporting companies. In fact, it's common knowledge that credit reporting companies get many things about a person's history wrong all the time. It's not as easy as you think, to keep an accurate large list regarding people. I find it very unlikely that "inordinate" is going to pass muster here. Example: On occassion, I've received parking tickets for places I am certain I have never been. Several times so far, it's turned out that the license plate was entered in the system in error and I was able to clear it up. That's a false positive. You are looking for conspiracies where none exist. If you stepped back from this, you'd see that the biggest reason for the disproportionate error rate against blacks is socioeconomic. In FL, on average, blacks caught in the legal system have less financial and education resources available to them. For that reason, making sure that their residental address records (keeping updated drivers license records when people move, get suspended or revoked) and legal records (getting fair treatment in the courts) is harder for them. In any society, the downtrodden are shunted aside and the records regarding them are inherently less accurate. Try keeping an accurate roster of Los Angeles homeless persons and you will see what I mean. Take the New Orleans evacuees - large numbers of them are not even accounted for yet. These are issues of social justice, not malfeasance by FL. Merecat 00:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
What is? The word "favorably"? The use of "favorably" here, without NPOV citation to expert opinion on legal matters is POV, OR, conjecture. Merecat 22:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
..more to come. Kevin Baas talk 21:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that's the last of the edits. Kevin Baas talk 21:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Is the picture of "Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris" relevant? (I'm thinking it is just the best picture anyone can think of to attach to this article.) RJFJR ( talk) 15:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
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Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links.
...access dates are not appropriate in the external links section. Do not use {{ cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.
Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them.-- Otr500 ( talk) 06:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)