Hi SVPetersham,
Congratulations on the excellent research and fine article on Ivy Holmes! I've made many contributions to the Grey Owl article in recent months and have learned some interesting things from your article. For example, it's complete news to me that she was born in Chicago!
I can see a number of things that would contribute to the further development of the article. I'd be happy if you remained the major contributor or I could make some changes after checking with you. Dsiedler ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Is there any source that supports the identity of the person documented in the Chicago birth certificate, under the name "Florence Ivy Holmes" and the person that Grey Owl married under the name "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes"?
This is a remarkable coincidence of names, but might be misleading. Smith uniformly refers to the person that Grey Owl married as "Ivy Holmes", except once when he cites the marriage registration, where he gives her full name as "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes". Dickson gives her name as "Constance Holmes" in Half-breed and as "Connie Holmes" and "Constance Ivy Homes" in Wilderness Man. All this about names is to show that it might be dangerous to rely completely on a coincidence of similar names.
Smith interviewed her four times and documented her past as a dancer. It is plausible that a birth in the U.S. (which gave her U.S. citizenship even if she didn't exercise it) might have been remarkable enough to have been mentioned. A simple statement by Smith - e.g. "Ivy's parents immigrated to the U.S. where she was born. At the age of two she returned to England with her mother after the untimely death of her father." - would have settled matters. The discovery of a birth record would be icing on the cake. The lack of such a statement of course doesn't disprove the identity, but the lack of support from the most reliable source about Grey Owl's life should give us pause.
Looking into the source for the birth certificate, I found a related birth registration record for one "Florence I Holmes". The parents' names in the birth registration are listed as "John R. Holmes" and "Florence A. J. Abraham", remarkably similar to the parents' names given in the birth certificate record - "John Robert Holmes" and "Florence Amelia Jane Abraham Holmes". So now we have another coincidence of names! (Note that in her marriage certificate the name of the father is given differently, as "Robert John Holmes".)
But this coincidence points to a different person from the one Grey Owl married, since "Florence I Holmes" appears in a 1950 census as living in Chicago. Could it be that this is the Florence Ivy Holmes who was born in Chicago in 1891 and was still living there - not in England - in 1950?
Dsiedler ( talk) 16:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi SVPetersham, I noticed you doing good work with sources at findmypast.co.uk. Whenever I follow a link to a transcript at this site it wants me to buy something. But the link you have provided works for me as long as I am logged in. Just wondering how you managed that. Dsiedler ( talk) 09:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
It was Ivy's fate to go down in history as "Grey Owl's English wife", but heading off to perform on the Continent as a professional dancer at the age of 15 was no mean accomplishment. It was probably also the case that her career was nipped in the bud by the advent of WWI.
Smith provides a good description of the tour. (It's a pity he doesn't record the name of the company.) If there are no objections I would create a new section with more detail from this material.
I've also uploaded the two wonderful photos of her that are already linked in the article and would place them in the section:
Dsiedler ( talk) 14:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Smith tells a different story:
"Ivy’s father died when she was two, and she had been raised by her mother in London."
"The Holmes began coming to Highbury Villa [in Hastings] each summer during the school holidays."
"A few years later Archie visited the Holmeses for short periods in London at their Hammersmith home in London’s West End."
So there was a strong connection to Hastings, which probably accounts for her participation in the Pupils' Concert there. But I think it's safer to go with Smith's account and say the family settled in London. It's also more likely that London had a dance school able to train dancers to a professional level than Hastings. I'll make the changes if there are no objections.
Do you know whether the father died in Chicago? It would make sense that they returned home after the breadwinner died, but a source would be required. Dsiedler ( talk) 19:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
This is a nice quotation! Do you have a copy of Smith's article in Ontario History? I tracked it down, but they want to sell me a year's subscription to see it! I couldn't get any closer than the cover: https://ontariohistoricalsociety.ca/ontario-history-1971-v63-n3-september-cover/. Dsiedler ( talk) 09:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think we can source the note in the GOS Bulletin, but I found the records:
Address confirmed on page 36 of the PDF file: "At the time of his discharge from the army in Canada, Mrs. Ivy Belaney was living at 19 St. Andrews square, Hastings."
She was living there at least as of Nov. 1917. (Belaney left for Canada on September 19, 1917.)
BTW, the Grey Owl exibit in the Hastings Museum is worth a visit.
Dsiedler (
talk) 16:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
The article now has references to Dickson in support of three factual statements:
1) That she was married to Belaney.
2) That Ivy said "He had all the glamour of a wounded soldier then. Lines of pain had given character to his dark handsome face... We fell violently in love."
3) That she received two-thirds of his army pay for some time.
Lovat Dickson was Grey Owl's London publisher and closely connected with him. His two books are entertaining and give a good sense of the man, but they are memoirs, not researched biographies. I have found instances where Dickson fabricates episodes. IMO, he can only be relied upon when reporting events he witnessed first-person.
So I would propose the following: Claim #1 is easily replaced by a reference to Smith. Claim #3 might be supported in Smith (I haven't checked yet) or his service record might prove it. I personally don't think the statement adds that much to the article and could simply be omitted.
Concerning #2, is there any corroborating evidence that she uttered these words to Dickson or to someone else that reported the words to him?
If Dickson did indeed interview her, it seems odd that in neither of his two books did he get her given name right. (I personally don't think he ever interviewed her. Moreover, if Ivy ever said this Dickson, she probably would have said the same to Smith, and he doesn't report anything like this.) Who else could have reported the words to him? Archie's aunt Ada? I find it difficult to believe that Ivy would have made this confession to his straight-laced Victorian aunt or that, if she did, Ada would have repeated them to Dickson. I think Dickson just made this up, as he did with this description of Anahareo's final parting from Grey Owl. My proposal then is to replace the statement with something bland like "they fell in love and married..." I like to spice things up, but not overstep the bounds of credulity.
Smith interviewed Ivy three times, so I would rely on his account about this period (pp.61-63). For example here is something we could directly quote: "Adventuresome as always, and deeply in love with her husband, Ivy accepted the plan of beginning a life together in the northern Canadian forest. Archie sailed on September 19, 1917. Ivy never saw him again."
Let me know your thoughts.
P.S. There are two other references in the article now that are very dubious:
1) There is a reference to material at https://abgreyowl.wordpress.com. This is all fiction and shouldn't be used in support of factual claims.
2) "After the marriage she starts to find him "strange, secretive, almost reclusive"." Ruffo's Grey Owl: The Mystery of Archie Belaney is a wonderful book, but it's a poem, not a researched biography, and shouldn't be used in support of factual claims. Ruffo might have got the idea for this from a statement in Smith: "But he never talked about himself. A barrier always came down. How could he tell Ivy about his Indian wife and child in Canada?" Better to stick to Smith here. Dsiedler ( talk) 08:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi SVPetersham,
Congratulations on the excellent research and fine article on Ivy Holmes! I've made many contributions to the Grey Owl article in recent months and have learned some interesting things from your article. For example, it's complete news to me that she was born in Chicago!
I can see a number of things that would contribute to the further development of the article. I'd be happy if you remained the major contributor or I could make some changes after checking with you. Dsiedler ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Is there any source that supports the identity of the person documented in the Chicago birth certificate, under the name "Florence Ivy Holmes" and the person that Grey Owl married under the name "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes"?
This is a remarkable coincidence of names, but might be misleading. Smith uniformly refers to the person that Grey Owl married as "Ivy Holmes", except once when he cites the marriage registration, where he gives her full name as "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes". Dickson gives her name as "Constance Holmes" in Half-breed and as "Connie Holmes" and "Constance Ivy Homes" in Wilderness Man. All this about names is to show that it might be dangerous to rely completely on a coincidence of similar names.
Smith interviewed her four times and documented her past as a dancer. It is plausible that a birth in the U.S. (which gave her U.S. citizenship even if she didn't exercise it) might have been remarkable enough to have been mentioned. A simple statement by Smith - e.g. "Ivy's parents immigrated to the U.S. where she was born. At the age of two she returned to England with her mother after the untimely death of her father." - would have settled matters. The discovery of a birth record would be icing on the cake. The lack of such a statement of course doesn't disprove the identity, but the lack of support from the most reliable source about Grey Owl's life should give us pause.
Looking into the source for the birth certificate, I found a related birth registration record for one "Florence I Holmes". The parents' names in the birth registration are listed as "John R. Holmes" and "Florence A. J. Abraham", remarkably similar to the parents' names given in the birth certificate record - "John Robert Holmes" and "Florence Amelia Jane Abraham Holmes". So now we have another coincidence of names! (Note that in her marriage certificate the name of the father is given differently, as "Robert John Holmes".)
But this coincidence points to a different person from the one Grey Owl married, since "Florence I Holmes" appears in a 1950 census as living in Chicago. Could it be that this is the Florence Ivy Holmes who was born in Chicago in 1891 and was still living there - not in England - in 1950?
Dsiedler ( talk) 16:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi SVPetersham, I noticed you doing good work with sources at findmypast.co.uk. Whenever I follow a link to a transcript at this site it wants me to buy something. But the link you have provided works for me as long as I am logged in. Just wondering how you managed that. Dsiedler ( talk) 09:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
It was Ivy's fate to go down in history as "Grey Owl's English wife", but heading off to perform on the Continent as a professional dancer at the age of 15 was no mean accomplishment. It was probably also the case that her career was nipped in the bud by the advent of WWI.
Smith provides a good description of the tour. (It's a pity he doesn't record the name of the company.) If there are no objections I would create a new section with more detail from this material.
I've also uploaded the two wonderful photos of her that are already linked in the article and would place them in the section:
Dsiedler ( talk) 14:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Smith tells a different story:
"Ivy’s father died when she was two, and she had been raised by her mother in London."
"The Holmes began coming to Highbury Villa [in Hastings] each summer during the school holidays."
"A few years later Archie visited the Holmeses for short periods in London at their Hammersmith home in London’s West End."
So there was a strong connection to Hastings, which probably accounts for her participation in the Pupils' Concert there. But I think it's safer to go with Smith's account and say the family settled in London. It's also more likely that London had a dance school able to train dancers to a professional level than Hastings. I'll make the changes if there are no objections.
Do you know whether the father died in Chicago? It would make sense that they returned home after the breadwinner died, but a source would be required. Dsiedler ( talk) 19:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
This is a nice quotation! Do you have a copy of Smith's article in Ontario History? I tracked it down, but they want to sell me a year's subscription to see it! I couldn't get any closer than the cover: https://ontariohistoricalsociety.ca/ontario-history-1971-v63-n3-september-cover/. Dsiedler ( talk) 09:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think we can source the note in the GOS Bulletin, but I found the records:
Address confirmed on page 36 of the PDF file: "At the time of his discharge from the army in Canada, Mrs. Ivy Belaney was living at 19 St. Andrews square, Hastings."
She was living there at least as of Nov. 1917. (Belaney left for Canada on September 19, 1917.)
BTW, the Grey Owl exibit in the Hastings Museum is worth a visit.
Dsiedler (
talk) 16:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
The article now has references to Dickson in support of three factual statements:
1) That she was married to Belaney.
2) That Ivy said "He had all the glamour of a wounded soldier then. Lines of pain had given character to his dark handsome face... We fell violently in love."
3) That she received two-thirds of his army pay for some time.
Lovat Dickson was Grey Owl's London publisher and closely connected with him. His two books are entertaining and give a good sense of the man, but they are memoirs, not researched biographies. I have found instances where Dickson fabricates episodes. IMO, he can only be relied upon when reporting events he witnessed first-person.
So I would propose the following: Claim #1 is easily replaced by a reference to Smith. Claim #3 might be supported in Smith (I haven't checked yet) or his service record might prove it. I personally don't think the statement adds that much to the article and could simply be omitted.
Concerning #2, is there any corroborating evidence that she uttered these words to Dickson or to someone else that reported the words to him?
If Dickson did indeed interview her, it seems odd that in neither of his two books did he get her given name right. (I personally don't think he ever interviewed her. Moreover, if Ivy ever said this Dickson, she probably would have said the same to Smith, and he doesn't report anything like this.) Who else could have reported the words to him? Archie's aunt Ada? I find it difficult to believe that Ivy would have made this confession to his straight-laced Victorian aunt or that, if she did, Ada would have repeated them to Dickson. I think Dickson just made this up, as he did with this description of Anahareo's final parting from Grey Owl. My proposal then is to replace the statement with something bland like "they fell in love and married..." I like to spice things up, but not overstep the bounds of credulity.
Smith interviewed Ivy three times, so I would rely on his account about this period (pp.61-63). For example here is something we could directly quote: "Adventuresome as always, and deeply in love with her husband, Ivy accepted the plan of beginning a life together in the northern Canadian forest. Archie sailed on September 19, 1917. Ivy never saw him again."
Let me know your thoughts.
P.S. There are two other references in the article now that are very dubious:
1) There is a reference to material at https://abgreyowl.wordpress.com. This is all fiction and shouldn't be used in support of factual claims.
2) "After the marriage she starts to find him "strange, secretive, almost reclusive"." Ruffo's Grey Owl: The Mystery of Archie Belaney is a wonderful book, but it's a poem, not a researched biography, and shouldn't be used in support of factual claims. Ruffo might have got the idea for this from a statement in Smith: "But he never talked about himself. A barrier always came down. How could he tell Ivy about his Indian wife and child in Canada?" Better to stick to Smith here. Dsiedler ( talk) 08:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)