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As Lysy pointed out above, the structure and tone of this article is heavily driven by the German-Polish POV-pushing by various editors in the past. I got here via an RFC and I think I helped move the article to a more NPOV position. However, there is still the general approach that blame for the expulsions should be ascribed to one party or another. As Lysy and XX236 point out, there was no single act called "the expulsion" but rather a series of evacuations, flights and expulsions. We should revisit the German exodus from Eastern Europe article and consider how to weave a single cohesive and comprehensive narrative that gives an appropriate NPOV perspective on the whole sorry tale.
-- Richard 14:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Mr Lysy one who can not go back is victim of an Expulsion if he flight ore was evacuated, so the numbers should be counted together.
Johann
I think the above discussion with Johann risks becoming an argument about definitions that are perhaps not worth fighting about right now.
Getting back to the primary topic, I think that the overarching article should be German exodus from Eastern Europe with the discussion of flights, evacuations and expulsions being subsidiary articles.
This is sort of the case right now but if you look at the two articles German exodus from Eastern Europe and Expulson of Germans after World War II, you would think the two articles were written by two authors who never spoke to each other. This is not completely true since I did make some effort to rationalize the two articles a few months ago but I think we should revisit them and start to build a comprehensive framework on which we can hang all the material that we want to presnt.
If there is enough material to focus on individual locations such as East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, Hungary, Lithuania etc, then we can create separate articles for those but, so far, I haven't seen enough material to warrant a specific article with the possible exception of the Wilhelm Gustloff (ship) article.
-- Richard 21:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree with Lysy that the whole topic should be displayed in phases separated more clearly from each other in terms of time (1944, 1945, 1946, etc.) and location (Poland, Hungary, etc.) as otherwise the impression might be created that eg the Poles are responsible for 1 million overall casualties. As for the notion of "expellee", we should keep in mind that also the ones who were evacuated or fled before they could be expelled are expellees as they were NOT allowed to come back. ( 194.9.5.10 09:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Ok, good idea. ( 194.9.5.10 09:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Furthermore,in the course of a restructuring of the article, I would propose to reconsider the current order of reasons for the expulsions. It is not questionable that the "attempt to restore pre-Nazi demographics in the areas where native populations were displaced by Nazi ethnic cleansing and expansion" was one of the reasons, but I doubt that it was the main reason. In my opinion the main reason was the Potsdam Conferrence where Stalin managed to politically perpetuate the military status quo of 1944/45. Please to not misunderstand me, but I have the impression that Stalin was not very interested in what the people of Middle and Eastern Europe the territoties of which were occupied by the Red Army thought about the expulsion (like he was not in 1939 when concluding the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty). He was just interested in securing the extension of the Soviet sphere of control gained in 1945. However, I would appreciate if we could discuss this issue as well in the course of the planed restructuring of the article. ( 194.9.5.12 09:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
This is a very old discussion, because since 1945 some Polish and others try to convince us that the one witch fled before the Russian and Polish army overtook the area where not part of the expulsion and where anyway already in Germany. But it was refused that they could go back in their homeland so they where in fact part of the expulsion victims not physical but administrative because they lost their possessions and where refused to return.
Under your argument the Bosnians of the Serb Republica would not be part of an expulsion because they fled , like they would have fled voluntarely.
So you can not say this people are not part of the expulsion, and you can not completely make a difference between what happened while the war was still going on and after the war because in reality their are not clear cut lines like in books.
Johann
I think nobody here challenges this as a fact (please read the comments carefully). The discussion at hand is rather about the question how to reasonably divide the whole topic (=exodus or expuslion) into several phases in terms of time and locations (eg: evacuation, flight, expulsion). (
194.9.5.10
15:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
I've shuffled a bit the subsections of the "Controversy over reasons and justifications for the expulsions": Moved "An attempt to restore pre-Nazi demographics in the areas where native populations were displaced by Nazi ethnic cleansing and expansion." to the bottom and "Compensation to Poland for territories occupied by the Soviet Union". Still, I have to admit, I'm not feeling comfortable about this section and would prefer that we leave it until later. The reasons given are of various weight, some are Poland-specific, others are more general, most of them are just speculations (although often very reasonable), and all this lacks any support in sources. It's also highly controversial and we could discuss it for ages without much progress. So my suggestion is to leave it for now and focus on the more general problems of the article instead. -- Lysy talk 17:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to attempt to define the phases, but first we need to make a decision of the understanding of the "expulsion" term in this article. Do we limit it to "organised post-Potsdam population transfers" and leave all the other events to be discussed within German exodus from Eastern Europe ? Or should we rather use the "expulsion" name to call all the exodus phases ? Obviously there are good arguments for and against each of these, but until we make a decision, we cannot consistently think of the structure of the article, as it will mix different understanding of the term by different editors. Shall we make a quick survey to see if we are at any consensus about this ? -- Lysy talk 17:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should generally define the notion of an "Expellee" at the article`s very beginning and then divide the topic into its phases (eg: evacuation, flight, expulsion). Within the phases one may use the respective description of what factually happened (eg: evacuation, flight, etc.).
As for the general definition, we could eg use the definition of a displaced person ("Vertriebenen") under sec. 1 of the German Federal Displaced Person Law (§ 1 Bundesvertriebenengesetz) i.e. everyone who fulfilled the following criterias "enjoyed" the status of a displaced person:
Pursuant to sec. 1 a displaced person is a person who
1) as German citizen or a person of German ethnicity
2) had his domicile in the former German eastern territories standing under foreign administration or in the territories beyond the borders of the German Reich as of 31 December 1937, and
3) has lost such domicile in connection with the incidents of WWII due to expulsion in particular by eviction or flight.
("Vertriebener ist, wer als deutscher Staatsangehöriger oder deutscher Volkszugehöriger seinen Wohnsitz in den ehemals unter fremder Verwaltung stehenden deutschen Ostgebieten oder in den Gebieten außerhalb der Grenzen des Deutschen Reiches nach dem Gebietsstande vom 31. Dezember 1937 hatte und diesen im Zusammenhang mit den Ereignissen des Zweiten Weltkrieges infolge Vertreibung, insbesondere durch Ausweisung oder Flucht, verloren hat.")
( 194.9.5.10 17:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
proposal: as the Law was issued in the 50ies we should accordingly ammend no 2) of the definition as follows:...of the FRG as of 12 September 1990..." (treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany)
( 194.9.5.10 17:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
I've just read German exodus from Eastern Europe as Richard suggested earlier, and my conclusion is that it is in much better shape and has the structure that our article here is missing. On the other hand it's very brief on the expulsion itself and it the Expulsion of Germans after World War II as the main article on this particular topic. It also discusses the other "phases" and the background of the exodus. I'm sorry for not being consistent with myself now, but after a closer look at the "exodus" article, I would suggest to either:
or
Any thought on this ? -- Lysy talk 18:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, it seems more reasonable. I would suggest the following sections to be renamed and bulk transferred at first:
and them both articles would need to be polished, naturally. -- Lysy talk 19:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
All right, if nobody objects soon, I'm going to be bold and will be soon moving most of the contents of "The results" and "Legacy of the expulsions" sections to German exodus from Eastern Europe. I understand that these too had been agreed upon so far. -- Lysy talk 19:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
per se but are nevertheless considered Germans rather than being considered Poles, Czechs or Slovaks. Does that help?
P.S. How great it is to just say that I am an American without having to say that I am an "ethnic Chinese" who happens to have been born in America. How great that China cannot claim California because of the many Chinese who live here. Of course, the Mexicans outnumber the Chinese so we're more likely to become Mexican than Chinese. ;^)
Hi! As for Volksdeutsche, I know that this notion sounds fairly odd and I have not invented it but it was presumably necessary to include all the people of German ancestery living outside the boarders of the German Reich of 1937 into the scope and the protection of the Law (for historical backround please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche) ( 194.9.5.12 08:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
Comment to the recent note (reverted) of User:194.9.5.12. I think that our objective is to focus on the expulsion (maybe exodus) and the discussion above is only because Richard thought it would be good to sketch a wider picture first, so that we better understand where the expulsion fits, what it is and what it is not. We can slowly move towards achieving this more strategic framework (with all possible modifications disputed, including Drang nach Osten, naturally, which I used as a short name for the 19th century colonization) but for now I think we all agree that the focus is the expulsion/exodus. Now I think it would be good to recruit reasonable German and Polish editors to discuss and hopefully support this motion. -- Lysy talk 10:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. To be honest, I had not read the discussion above carefully before inserted the comment, sorry. When I discovered the comment was nonsence I canceled it in order to prevent a needless discussion about it. ( 194.9.5.10 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)) ps: Sorry, Richard, I do not want to start a discussion about that topic but also the treatment of Afro-Americans in the 18th, 19th and in the south of the USA even in the 20th century (just think of seats in buses for white and black people) shows that the "idea" of ethnicity was not unknown in the USA ( 194.9.5.10 10:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
The founding of the USA isn`t the topic here, but I ve read your little chat here and I`m really surprised that you didn`t mention the perspective of the indigenous peoples - I guess they might have a different opinion about that! What do we learn? In order to gain objectivity, we need to approach the topic from different angles and start a intersubjective dialogue. When you decide to feature the "Drang nach Oste" idea, you have to mention it`s "counterparts" Pan-Slavism, Austroslavism or even the All-Polish Youth etc. as well. Im pretty sure this would lead to pointless disputes and far away from the core of the topic. The questions are: What do you what to express here? What is the point which should be made? -- Sushi Leone 11:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
BORDERS
The ODER- Neisse border can not be called historic at all. The Piasten Dynasty controlled it only very short time like 30 to 50 years and then it was not a border in the sense of nowadays borders, because the regional dukes where much more powerful than the king of Poland.( read the Enlish history of this time) It was more a loose federation of Regions, in those days, with the king on the top. The most of the polish Kings spoke German and where neutral about their ethnical background. You can not compare the middle age with the 20 century. So this border is a fiction of the school atlases for history made by unhonest man.
Till 1200 Europe was nearly not inhabited, their where mostly woods and marches, especially in this areas. It where the Germans witch made out of the no-man’s-land agriculture that is the fact, and not only in Poland.
1945 the Polish had no historical rights on this lands. Not on Silesia witch was original a part of Bohemia. Not at Pomerania because its dukes joined the German empire voluntarily to be protected against the Polish aggression. Not at Prussia witch spoke originally a Lithuanian Dialect.
NO HISTORICAL JUSTIFICATION NOT ONE
Johann
Lysy has again asked me to comment on this discussion, as he did a couple months ago.
Again, I think the existing approaches are overly detailed and polemical. To my mind, what would make sense (to the reader, for whom we're supposedly doing this) would be an essentially chronological approach.
It's true that there wasn't just one expulsion, but the expulsions, or if you prefer the German "exodus" from central-eastern Europe, all were the result of one historical event: Germany's defeat in WWII.
The Oder-Neisse border between Germany and Poland had been decided upon (by the Soviets) long before Germany was defeated. This border had nothing to do with ethnographic considerations. The Soviet military victory on the Eastern Front made imposition of the border possible as an act of power politics by Stalin and the Soviet colossus, which occupied the entire region militarily. This act of Realpolitik was presented for public consumption as a justifiable retribution against Nazi Germany, as follows:
The expulsions of the Germans from Czechoslovakia (3.5 million) and other central-eastern European nations, including prewar Poland, were generally justified on the grounds that German minorities had engendered pan-German expansionism in previous years and aggression by Nazi Germany. As is usual in central-European history, the matter is a good deal more complex than this, but the details are not really germane to this story. The article or articles should be limited to what actually happen in the context of the historical framework, which should include mention in summary form of the precedents set by the Nazis in expelling Poles from the so-called Wartheland and beginning to replace them with Baltic Germans. (The Baltic transfers, BTW, were a result of the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact, which should be explained high in the "story" to prepare the reader for the "compensation" theme.)
Acts of revenge and retribution against the German population of the affected areas also should be mentioned, but not in a manner that attributes any peculiar degree of moral or cultural depravity, as these acts of revenge were set in motion by the horrible savagery of the Nazi-German occupation. Violence begets violence. What should be explained, however, is that in large measure this revenge fell upon ordinary human beings rather than, for the most part, upon those who have been labeled Hitler's "willing executioners." Due to wartime dislocations, the objects of this revenge included a disproportionate number of women, children and elderly people. This is factual. The narrative should stick to factual events rather than attempt to ascribe or condemn motivations beyond the obvious phenomenon of ethnically based revenge.
In an encyclopedia entry, the ideal is to let the reader decide for himself whether this or that occurrence was right or wrong, good or bad, justified or unjust, etc. The emotional problem posed by this topic — and the reason it arouses such strong nationalistic feelings — is its moral complexity and ambiguity. Nazi-German aggression and atrocities were wrong. Did that make the annexations, expulsions and acts of retribution right? A Kantian or Christian idealist may think not; those who view themselves as realists may say the idealists are out of touch with reality. (Said Stalin at Potsdam: "We cannot abstract ourselves from the results of war.") This discussion goes on forever. But none of that is relevant to this article, which should simply present a concise summary of what happened within the political/historical context, without trying to reach a final judgment on its character. Leave that to historians.
The difficulty, of course, is distilling the story into a reasonably concise narrative.
Sca 18:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but most interesting. And would deserve at least a wikipedia article of its own one day. But so far it's probably too controversial and difficult. -- Lysy talk 20:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate that Sca is considered to be biased both by "German" and "Polish" editors. You're my hero! :-) -- Lysy talk 07:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I second :-) Das ist sehr gut. Który jest wielki. Nonprof. Frinkus 08:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I third (can you say that? :) Its good to have a non-biased outside view. Thanks Sca -- Splette :) Talk 20:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I reviewed the text that was moved to the German exodus from Eastern Europe article.
I think the problem is that some topics should be discussed in this article, some in that article and some in both articles. Here is my first cut
6.1 Cold War assessments of the expulsions (here definitely, maybe in the Exodus article also)
6.2 Expelled Germans in postwar Germany (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.2.1 Federation of Expellees (both)
6.2.2 Centre Against Expulsions (both)
6.3 Polish-German relations (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.4 Czech-German relations (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.5 The German minority in Hungary (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.6 Russia (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.7 Re-examination of the expulsions in the 1990s (mostly here, mention in the Exodus article)
-- Richard 08:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
After re-reading parts of Isaac Deutscher's biography of Stalin, I have to correct one thing I said above. Poland's western border (the Oder-Neisse Line) had not been determined at the time of Teheran, in November '43. At Teheran, Stalin secured Western agreement only to eastern border, generally the "Curzon Line" — although Roosevelt apparently argued for inclusion of L'wów/L'vov/L/viv (Lemberg) in postwar PL. But at Teheran the Big Three already were discussing "compensation" for Poland through annexations of Germany territory.
Sca 14:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
What and why would we like to have it here ? The first passage about the Churchill speech seems to be related to territorial changes, not the expulsion (and still remains unreferenced).
The second part (Reece's speech) is relevant, but I'm not sure if we should not rather base the assessment on historic research, and not politicians.
Finally, Solzhenitsyn and Kopelev objecting during their military service is a little vague. Did they object to expulsion ? How exactly did they object ? How is it related to "cold war assessment" ?
-- Lysy talk 08:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with these sentences:
Where do they belong ? -- Lysy talk 09:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My problem was that they seemed to be more general ("1944-1948", "holocaust", "concentration camps") and therefore relevant to the exodus events in the wider sense not only the expulsion. So I suppose they should go to the "Exodus" article back. Am I right here ? -- Lysy talk 17:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I personally don't recall anything about Solzhenitsyn objecting "during his military service" to Red Army conduct in eastern Germany. I bvelieve he got in trouble for a letter to a friend criticizing Stalin.
However: Solzhenitsyn, who had been a Red Army captain in East Prussia, recorded in Volume One of The Gulag Archipelago that "all of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction." (P. 21 of U.S. paperback ed., 1973.) Sca 14:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Many re-examiners don't remember WWII ( Erika Steinbach, Peter Glotz). Many recent German books are written by such people, who present idealized image of Nazi Germany, where any town had a working camp. Erika Steinach lived near Piaśnica execution place, not far from Stutthof. Xx236 11:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
"who present idealized image of Nazi Germany" => Sorry, Xx236, but to allege that Peter Glotz idealized the image of Nazi Germany is simply not true and discredits a man who during all his lifetime as a politician, social scientist and journalist tried to mediate between Czechs and Germans! ( 194.9.5.10 13:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
Peter Glotz' father managed a Jewish business in Nazi Prague, so he preferred to run away after the war. Legally he was able to stay because his wife was Czech (I don't know if the law was respected). Glotz' mother wanted to join her husband, she wasn't exactly expelled, the same for Peter. His book about the expulsion doesn't exactly "mediate" according to Eva Hahn. Xx236 08:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not obvious. The statement should be removed. Xx236 12:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
See the title of the paragraph.
The government in exile wanted originally Upper Silesia (maybe till Opole), not Lower Silesia. Arciszewski declared he preferred Lwów and Wilno. The Western allies disn't care about any opinion of the Polish government since 1944 or even 1943. Western historians erroneously translate "Śląsk" as "Silesia". "Śląsk" meant Upper Silesia, even today there is Województwo Śląskie. Xx236 08:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
In late ’44 or early ’45, after the Soviet-sponsored (Communist) "Lublin Poles" had announced their demand for the Oder-Neisse frontier, the Polish government-in-exile, in London, said it wanted "neither Breslau nor Stettin." Tomasz Arciszewski, its prime minister, told Churchill that Poland had no desire to push her border so far west as to include 8 million to 10 million Germans.
However, when the "Lublin Poles" were invited to the Potsdam conference in July 1945, their president, Bolesław Beirut, argued for the Oder-Neisse border by saying the Poles would get less territory from Germany than they were losing to Russia. At his point, even Stanisław Mikołajczyk, who in 1943 became prime minister of the (London) Polish government-in-exile after Władysław Sikorski was killed in a suspicious plane crash – and who earlier had opposed the Oder-Neisse Line – now supported it with the argument that Silesia had been an arsenal of German militarism and that Polish control of the Oder would prevent German arms exports.
"The Poles ... gulping down immense chunks of German territory, had obviously become ... ardent puppets" of the Soviets, Churchill commented in his memoirs.
Sources:
Sca 18:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, all analogies break down somewhere because every historical situation is different, but the Mexican/U.S. situation is the closest parallel I could think of, even though it took place over a much shorter period of time than the German eastward expansion — which if you go back to when the Germans were west of the Elbe, not just the Oder, went on for something like 800 years.
But as an aside, the thought that the Mexicans are, demographically speaking, "reclaiming" the Southwest has crossed my mind — though again it's more complex than that.
Another problem with the analogy is that the West Slavs dwelling east of the Elbe back at the start of the second millenium weren't really Polish in the modern sense, but more like proto-Polish, as I understand it. (I'm told the Kashubes are a similar group.) As most of us know, a few remnants of West-Slavdom remain in Saxony to this day — the Sorbs (or Wends).
Sca 15:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Poles" were also proto-Polish. I'm not an expert, but Western Slavs weren't cetrainly divided linguistically about 1000. Czech Hussite preachers of sermons were understood in Poland (i.e. even after 1414). The same probably for Sorbs. The division was made only by the rulers. Xx236 08:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Lublin Poles" were nominet and controlled by Stalin. Osóbka-Morawski claimed later, that he opposed Stalin once, when he asked for a part of Białowieża Forest. Did any Lublin-Pole opposed Stalin regarding the Western border? Who and when? Did he survive? Xx236 08:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Please make sure that all facts in this highly controversial article have appropriate citations otherwise it fails "Nationalist:bias" wikipedia policy. For example "German civilian casualties are estimated to number in the millions during the whole process of evacuation" as obvious nonsense without any citation, fact or qualified academic history research should not be there. Tulkolahten 12:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
It's possible that two million died during the evacuation, Soviet-German fights AND expulsion. Naming "evacuation, Soviet-German fights AND expulsion" - expulsion - is German nationalistic propaganda.
Question to a native speaker - is "two millions" "in the millions"? Xx236 13:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
There is Estimates of number of deaths in connection with expulsion of Germans after WWII in this Wiki. It says that 1 300 000 German civilians died. It's not "in the millions". Should the discussion go to Estimates of number of deaths in connection with expulsion of Germans after WWII discussion? Xx236 13:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The point of view of many Poles is that the whole "expulsionist culture" growing recently is German revisonism. The war meant death, only the happy ones survived. It's hard to understand that the survivors complain, especially those living in Western Germany. Neither Erika Steinbach nor Peter Glotz would have succeded in Communist Poland, Czechoslovakia nor in GDR).
DOes the article include the tragedy of Germans expelled from France or Belgium? Why not? It's not only bias, it's racism. Xx236 15:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"three million German civilians lost their lives" - no comments. Xx236 15:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"It's not only bias, it's racism." Xx236, please calm down a little bit and return to a more unemotional way to discuss - thank you. ( 194.9.5.10 15:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC))
Thank you for confirming my opinion about Western stereotypes -cultural imperialism or orientalism. Eastern under-people do terrible things, the West is pure. Why Anni-Frid Lyngstad isn't an expelee, Erika Steinbach is one? The other method isto put me out of the discussion as a crazy nationalist. Your stereotypes are better than my knowledge. Xx236 12:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
also the "DTV Atlas zur Weltgeschichte" (Atlas of World History) in its edition 2006 cites number of 3 Mio. overall German civilian casualties ( 194.9.5.10 16:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)) "overall" doesn't mean "during the expulsions". Xx236 12:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I would say that this depends on the definition of expulsion. As for me, this notion comprises as well those who had flet before they could have been expelled and those who were not allowed to come back. By the way, please do not take it personnaly, but your comments are partly very aggressive and offending. Why don`t you try to discuss in a more unemotional way. ( 194.9.5.10 13:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC))
For those who are interested in this topic, I offer the following excerpt from an academic paper I wrote nearly 20 years ago, relying on sources available to me at the time:
Sca
16:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
All the sources are 39 years or more old, based on German accusation written by former Nazi intelectuals. Xx236 12:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
See above, you do exactly the same you criticize.
A number of former Nazis were involved in the Documentation..., some of them involed in designing Nazi expulsions in the III Reich. Is there any rule that writing about facts is wrong in the English Wiki?
Some German authors criticize the Documentation... as biased. It's legal to criticize the Documentation.... I don't criticize the crimes but the bias of some German authors, working during the Cold war.
The minister was Theodor Oberländer, who took part in Hitler's putsch of 1923. His student Theodor Schieder was the chief-editor, who during the war demanded Entjudung Restpolens. Werner Conze prented his antisemitic views even in 1953. More in [1]
Their authors were professional historians or journalists, and each book is a serious attempt to address an issue, based in part on demographic data. - do you mean Schieder? Xx236 13:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Article does not mention these casualties were caused by the conditions of expulsion under the red army. It should be mentioned.
Tulkolahten
08:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the above query. Let's put it this way. These people would not have died if they'd been allowed to remain in their own homes and land which was rightfully German. They died as a result of the jointly agreed Allied policy of ethnic cleansing. Whether it was 100,000 or 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 dead really makes no odds. It was an utterly disgraceful policy that caused untold suffering to millions of people and will forever more be an appalling stain on the Allied leaders concerned, namely, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin. Andrew 18th November 2006
Just one other thing to add. Is anyone aware that Winston Chrchill stood up in the House of Commons on December 15th 1943 and said in a speech, ...the total expulsion of Germans from the Eastern territories is what is proposed. It was an official policy of the Allies to kick out all Germans from their own lands in the East. That policy cost more than a million lives. You can discuss this until the cows come home. Page after page after page. Whatever anyone thinks, this policy was a disgrace. No matter what, there was no excuse for it. All those men, all those women and all those children died as a result of Allied policy and it was wrong. In a thousand years of discussion it will still be wrong. Nothing that Hitler or anyone under him did can ever excuse Allied ethnic cleansing on that scale and death on that scale and that's that!! Andrew. 19 November 2006
Any day brings disgraceful acceptance of starvation and genocide. Churchill had much more reasons to hate the Germans when Auschwitz KZ was working than the contemporary politicians have reasons to do business as usuall.
Churchill wasn't able to fully preview in 1943 the situation in Eastern Europe under the Soviets in 1945. Quite many people aren't able to accept the truth till today - see the USSR article. Xx236 13:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Citizens of the SU (not only Russians) colonized deserted areas in the West, replaced Germans and Poles. It was kind of "Drang nach Westen". Does a Western reader understand this from the article? Xx236 15:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, as a german-speaking person I am able to understand the term "Drang nach Westen". But for a non-german-speaking person this term needs an explication, I presume. Perhaps the historical tendencies of polish or russian "Drang nach Westen" should be presented and explained in a special article. (user, Nov. 16th, 2006)
As far as I know Stalin wasn't under Polish influence, when he designed the post-war Europe. Xx236 13:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this Wikipedia-forum helps to inform and to understand. But for the difficult and controversal topic of expulsions we need an independent science-center of international documentation and discussion. It is necessary, because it gives a face to those human beings who lost their lives and who suffered a lot. It is also necessary, to help us understanding the human character and the history and avoiding problems in today's international conflicts. (User, Nov. 16th, 2006)
I prefer to study mass executions first. The evacuation of prisoners from e.g. Auschwitz, too. Xx236 13:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There are missing France, Belgium, Nederland, Italy. Tulkolahten 11:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Norway. Xx236 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's explore this. I say the following based on personal speculation and not on the basis of knowledge so feel free to correct me (not that you needed my permission to do so).
I think the difference between "expulsion" in Eastern Europe and "expulsion" in Western Europe is the difference both in scale and in nature of the expulsions.
I don't think anyone is claiming that expulsions on the order of millions of people occurred in Western Europe. I do believe that small groups of Germans may have felt it desirable to leave but it is my sense that these were more about societal pressures rather than due to an official government policy. I suspect that the governments involved did nothing to protect German minorities within their borders and may have encouraged the societal pressures by turning a blind eye towards any actions taken to pressure German minorities to leave. (cf. the case of Anni-Frid Lyngstad's mother)
This is partly because of the difference between the Western governments and the Stalinist regimes and also because there were no major border changes in the West.. However, a major reason is that there were not large communities of Volksdeutsche in Western Europe.
I haven't hearad of any major expulsions from Western Europe. The one area that I know of in Western Europe that had a significant ethnic German minority is Alsace-Lorraine. The following text is from that article:
If you wish expulsions in the Western European countries mentioned above to be included in this article, then please document the scope and nature of those expulsions.
Note that I am not saying that there is no place in Wikipedia to document the treatment of German minorities in Western Europe after World War II. What I am saying is that the nature and scope of the two situations are so radically different that it is inappropriate to deal with them in the same article.
If there is sufficient material to document prejudice, persecution and expulsion of Germans from Western Europe after World War II, then I would propose that a separate article be created with links between the new article and this one.
-- Richard 17:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, here's something about Operation Black Tulip, which would need to be linked with a short text. Anonytroll 10:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 12:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Are there scientific publications or internet-articles about this topic? (User 82.207.181.26, Nov. 16th, 2006)
"user" said: The difference is: the concept of racial hygiene is intending a homogeneous population regarding the criterium "race" (whatever "race" might be), the concept of ethnically homogeneous states is intending a homogeneous population regarding the criterium "ethnicity".
you were right in saying "whatever race might be", many people use race and ethnicity interchangeably, especially here on Wikipedia I have noticed. since saying "race" can often make you look racist in the current times, they have replaced it with the word ethnic. when someone says "ethnic _______" I think of the general characterization of that nationality/race/ethnicity, so for instance when someone says "ethnic Nigerian" I think of a black man, not someone resembling Saint Nicholas. these are highly complicated terms as one persons ideas about race/ethnicity are totally different than anothers. for instance, one person can see all Caucasians as one ethnic group/race, and another person can see every nationality or distinct culture within Caucasians as a different race or ethnic group. this is seen in this article well, as the term "ethnic German" is used to describe basically everyone that was expelled. but what is ethnic German? is a mennonite an ethnic German? there blood line is still 100% German since they emigrated to the new world hundreds of years ago, so what makes one German. the term is used on wikipedia to avoid using the word race and is used by many nationalists to describe us and them
-- Jadger 21:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Re the comment above that begins, "A number of former Nazis were involved in the Documentation," apparently from User Xx236 (two times three is six?) — I have an open mind regarding the sources for my paper, which as I've said is almost 20 years old and was written using the few sources that were available to me at the (pre-Internet) time. I am not a professional historian and do not claim to be presenting the last word on this complex topic.
I certainly would never endorse the Nazis' program of "ethnic hygiene," either in Germany or in the areas they conquered. I am no fan of ethnic cleansing no matter who does it. (BTW, had I been born in Germany 20 years before I was born in the U.S., it's quite likely I would have been "euthenized" due to childhood physical/medical problems.)
That said, to dismiss the events by labeling my sources as "Nazi" or to say that they have been criticized (I'm all for critical evaluation of everything) would be another example of what I objected to before: Discounting information by maligning its sources. As I've said repeatedly, the history of the events themselves should be reported without descending into ethnically or politically motivated vituperation.
I will read and evaluate the "Freitag" article linked to above. Thank you. Sca 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
"that 1.5 million to 2 million of them lost their lives in the process". No, they didn't. Your numbers include many processes, eg. US bombs, SU navy, Nazi terror. Even the Center against Expulsions doesn't support your numbers.
Ten of thousands of Slavic women were raped by Soviet soldiers, the majority of them never registered their accounts because of highly conservative society and Soviet rules.
The other side of the "ethnically based expropriation and expulsion" was that Germans were allowed to emigrate to the West and thousands of Slavs and Balts were deported to Siberia. Millions lost everything during collectivization and nationalization. More than one million of Poles expelled (or running away) from the SU travelled in comparable conditions as the German fugitives, in cattle cars, terrorized by criminals and police.
In 1944 all Warsaw people were expelled, many of them into Nazi camps, the city destroied. Is there one book in English~/German describing the expulsion?
"see nothing in the cited article that disproves or even seriously questions the essential veracity of the eyewitness accounts collected in the Documentation. "
We are discussing the numbers and opinions, not individual tragedies. However any source should be proessionally evaluated.
BTW - recently a group of liberal Germans wanted to publish a number of female accounts of 1945. They had to correct them because of the racist anti-Slavic language of the accounts. The Nazi rules influenced both Germans and Slavs. Their master/slave relationship inverted in January 1945 but the ideas remined. Xx236 12:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an article Theodor Schieder in German Wiki. Xx236 15:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
A minority destroied a democratic state, is such lesson alleged? The conclusion was probably wrong but the problem existed. I believe that the word alleged has been added to attack Czechs rather than to explain anything. Xx236 13:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The mainstream of German historiography and the radical BdV wing select certain expulsions (Germans expelled by states in the East) forgetting others - evacuation of Jews and other prizoners called Death marches (Holocaust)("Schindler's list" is about this process), expulsions from Western countries and the Soviet Union, executions of deserters. It's a kind of dehumanization under the banner of human rights. Only some leftist and Jewish authors oppose such division.
Poland cooperates with German historians publishing documents of the expulsion. I don't know about such cooperation with Kaliningrad historians.
A Wrocław theater presents a documentary play by Jan Klata. 5 German and 5 Polish old refugees speak about their expulsions in 1945.
An average Pole knows history of WWII much better than an average German. I believe that Germans should learn about their crimes in the East during WWII if they learn about their tragedies, but they don't. An explanation - we have 20 non-German children in many German classrooms. How to teach them German history? Xx236 14:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that Germany do need any coaching with regard to the coming to terms with its past. ( 194.9.5.10 09:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Jedger, you seem to ignore what happened to Polish academicians during WWII. Thousands of them were murdered by the cultural Germans. Xx236 08:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
well than correct me and name a number of outstanding Polish Universities that outclass German ones, perhaps look [2] or perhaps [3] the second is from the EU, you can hardly argue with that.
but this has gone off-topic, my point was that you can't make claims about such a specific topic without quizzing every German and every polish student on WWII questions, which would bring up a dilemma, what are the questions? Western Europe or the Eastern Front?
-- Jadger 00:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Jadger, do you understand what I'm writing about? Germans murdered almosty all Jewish academicians in Poland and many gentiles, too. You seem to be happy with it. Xx236 19:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Speaking German is common in Poland, Germans don't learn Polish. Poles watch tens of German TV channels, Germans don't watch the Polish ones, partially because of the technical and financial superiory of Germany. Poles learn about German history and culture at school, Germans rather don't learn about Polish history and culture at school. There are researches confirming my point of view. Which research says, that Germans know about Poland, Jadger sir?
German outstanding universities teach eventually about Russia, not about small Eastern nations. Please, learn before you teach.
Xx236 08:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
lol, your whole comment is a general stereotyping of all Germans.
"Poles watch tens of German TV channels, Germans don't watch the Polish ones, partially because of the technical and financial superiory of Germany." Point being? I live in Canada and most the TV we watch is American, what is your point? TV for the most part doesn't educate, we are talking about the education systems in the two countries (which is off-topic), not about the latest episode of [desperate housewives].
"There are researches confirming my point of view. Which research says, that Germans know about Poland, Jadger sir? " please cite some of these "researches" Xx, so that one can atleast read them and be enlightened.
we were not talking about whether or not they teach about German research on Poland, but the differing education systems in the two
and BTW, German is a dominant world language, being the language of Engineering and other subjects, not the least of which is cultural (Goethe's writings for example). German is 2nd most common language books are published in, so learning German may be needed for continuing education. Polish on the other hand is not nearly as prevalent. Most English speakers don't learn Polish, so are you saying that all people who don't speak Polish are ignorant of matters concerning Poles? Or is it just all Germans who don't speak Polish who are ignorant?
-- Jadger 22:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Jadger, I would call you way of discussion hostile. Would you please consider that about 50% of my family was persecuted during WWII, by Germans and their Soviet allies, many of them died. How many members of your family were murdered by Poles to explain your attitude?
Xx236 19:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This is like trying to discuss religion with fundamentalists: It's futile. However, let me state for the record that I will never agree with anyone who contends that the Germans, in general, don't know the history of the Nazi occupations, expulsions, genocides, Holocaust, etc., etc. It's been done and done and done.
I'm very sorry to have to say this, but: These circular, futile discussions tend to reinforce an impression I had before but was trying to get beyond: That some Poles simply don't want the world to know about what was done to the Germans in 1945-50 — and in some cases, about the ethnographic history of the former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.
I'm not trying to start another argument or offend anyone. I'm just stating what my impression — as an American who's taken a deep interest in the whole topic over a period of decades — has been.
Just once on Wiki, I'd like to hear a Polish person say: We are sorry, too, for what was done to the Germans. I heard a Polish person say something like that once when I lived in Warsaw. It's interesting to note that her family had been compelled to move from what's now Lithuania to Pomerania; perhaps that gave her some insight into what the other side experienced. At this point, as far as Wiki is concerned, I'm just tired of the whole "discussion," if it can be called that.
Sca 22:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
ditto, my thoughts exactly
-- Jadger 00:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sca, comparing me with a fundamentalist just because I resist against (anchorless and unfounded) allegations like WWII is not subject to German history lessons or German Wiki is biased with regard to what happened in Poland under German occupation, appears quite unreflected and, hence, unfair to me. (
194.9.5.10
15:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Slucham = you do not understand what I talk about? No problem: I referred to your statement "This is like trying to discuss religion with fundamentalists" => ahora comprendes la conexiòn? te saludo ( 194.9.5.10 14:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)) ps: nonsence is of course nonsense...
As you, as you wrote, do actually not care at all what I tried to say I guess I do not have to waste my time by giving further explanation.
Ps: Like you do not speak Spanish I do not speak Polish and my response in Spanish was therefore a (funny) reply to your Polish "Slucham?" (it took me some time before I found out that it is Polish and what it means). Thus, suprisingly, I am not Polish (although I speak Spanish). Last but not least, please excuse my poor English which definitively requires some improvement (like your German). ( 194.9.5.10 09:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
If you claim that I "don't want the world to know what was done to the Germans in 1945-50 — and in some cases, about the ethnographic history of the former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line" - prove it. How do I prevent the knowledge to be dpread? Do I censor, imprison the authors?
I claim that the world, especially Germany, doesn't want to know about German crimes against non-Jewish Poles. It's obvious that German history books , including the school textbooks, concentrate on German history, not the history of crimes against ethnic Poles. Check the German WIki, you will find hundreds biased articles. Now the German point of view comes to the English Wiki, because of you cultural stereotypes.
My position is that Germany (frequently former Nazi politicians and academicians) created the idea of "expulsion" which contains German crimes and errors in 1944, war, Soviet crimes (including the area of the future GDR, where no expulsion took place) AND expulsion. The role of the Soviet Union is being minimalized, the one of Poland and Czechoslovakia overestimated. Xx236 08:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"Check the German WIki, you will find hundreds biased articles." ok, Xx236, now I really fed up with your unfounded allegations. Please quote at least five of the hundreds of biased articles in order to prove what you said. Not to mention that you presumably do not even speak German, you will not be able to quote just five. So, come on, I am looking forward to receive the list! But otherwise: please stop this nonsence! ( 194.9.5.12 09:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
194.9.5.12
Would you please concentrate on the subject rather than on my personality? I do speak German enough to understand 99% of the German Wiki texts about Poland. This forum isn't the right place to discuss the German Wiki, I have answered you in German nationalistic bias in German Wikipedia. Would you please read German Wikipedia before you write nonsence? Xx236 11:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Memorandum - the situation of the Slavistic in Germany. Xx236 11:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
What? You wrote: German Wiki is full of bias. And when I ask you to please quote at least five of these hundreds and hundreds of biased articles you tell me that this is not the place to discuss German Wiki?! So why do you talk about in the first place? Sorry, but this level of discussing is simply to low for me. Either you prove your statements or please refrain from alleging - sorry - such nonsence. By the way, the quoted article is not a Wiki article. ( 194.9.5.10 11:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Talk:German Wikipedia contains my answer. It is in Wikipedia.
Would you please be more polite, sir. Xx236 12:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not consider my statements to be unpolied. However, in case you felt offended by it I hereby beg your pardon. Your answer does merely repeat what you have alleged here but no prove is given whatsoever. Although one has actually not to prove to be not guilty, please refer (for example) to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polen#Zweiter_Weltkrieg_1939-1945 and tell me which information is missing there making the article biased. ( 194.9.5.10 13:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
At first, sorry. I know this isn't a discussion forum and I managed to just read and not comment anything so far. But at this point I can't help myself. Dear Xx236, I am shocked about your (unfounded) percecption of Germany. I don't know how you imagine history is being taught in school here. Erika Steinbach herself teaching us the "Bund der Vertriebenen"-version about WWII? Rather not. Believe me WWII, the Holocaust and the other shamful chapters of German history are being teached extensively and its not a chapter of our history we are particulary proud about. But at some point I feel like I want to stop apologise about what happened back then and just get the facts straight. That doesn't make me a nationalistic POV-pusher. This is wikipedia, a place for facts... To come back to the German history lessons: XX236, I am sorry, that in school we learn about the "crimes against ethnic Poles" not before, but only after the Holocaust. By the way I have learned almost nothing about the expulsions in school at all! I can only speak for that former East-German school I went to and don't know if it was taught in other schools or the West. But everything I know about the topic, is what I read later on. Now talking about biased articles: How come there is no link to this article in the Polish Wikipedia? Even the Japanese Wikipedia has it. I am sure there must be some article covering expulsions in the Polish wikipedia, no? After all its the 4th biggest Wikipedia articlewise and subjects about Polish history are especially well covered. -- Splette :) How's my driving? 15:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. unnamed editor you might consider getting an account if you edit regularly
Erika Steinbach wants to teach German children and she started in Berlin, where many schools visited the Erzwungene Wege.
I don't think that the article deserves to be linked, because it is biased. BTW War crimes of the Wehrmacht has false link to German Wiki and doesn't have one to Polish Wiki. Bombing of Wieluń doesn't have any link, the same Bombing of Frampol.
The 4th place of the Polish Wiki is the result of automatic generation of thousands of articles about nothing. You may check the lenghth of the articles, the number of pictures. Xx236 16:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I see from the "in other languages" box that there are versions of this article on the German (of course), Hungarian and Romanian Wiki sites, but apparently no Russian, Polish or Czech versions. How can this be?
PS: Can someone (an administrator, perhaps) please archive this page? It's getting overlong. Thanks. Sca 18:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd think they are simply not linked. The German Wikipedia link for example is to an article about expulsions in general (with some specific ones, though). I'd guess it is the same for these language Wikis. Anonytroll 18:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Poland's western borders have been determined by the allies during the Potsdam Conference in summer 1945 by the term Oder-Neisse line. This term means that the rivers of Oder and Neisse should mark the future western borders of Polish administration. But in July 1945 - regardless of the Potsdam Conference - the Soviet Union handed over territories in the west of the Oder-Neisse line (including the important city and port of Stettin) to Poland. After this transfer to Poland organised expulsions of Germans began also in these territories in the west of the Oder-Neisse line. (user, 1 December 2006)
The text about Stettin should be corrected.
BTW- which geographical names should be used - historical or current? The states are named using current names, e.g. Czech Republic and cities have historical names - Stettin. Strange. Xx236 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Was the fate of Kashubians specific in any way? Upper Silesians had exactly the same problems living between Germans and Poles and their number was bigger. Xx236 16:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The fate of the Masurians also should be included. Sca 18:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Czechoslovakia was quite independent 1945-1948. Xx236 12:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung of November 14, the total number of victims of the expulsion was estimated being 473 000 (1964) or 400 000 (1974). Do you really know the subject better than the author - Ingo Haar? Xx236 15:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The Spiegel is a left wing German Newspaper founded by the britisch occupation forces. Since ever it tries to reshape the II WW history, non of the German Newspapers are realy trustworthy in such historical artikels because they want to downplay german victims in numbers. So the most historical resurge, witch you can trust is done by non Germans. Dont forget Germany was since the II WW never a free country, from occupation directly to NATO. The ruling class in Germany is seeable controlled by other than national Interests. Their is no way for only 400.000 victims. The German minority in Yugoslawia has documented allone 180.000 victims by name. This 400.000 is a political number like the 30.000 killed in Dresden it was initiated may be by western secret services to dawnplay their role in the second world war. Johann
Not The Federation of Expellees but Erika Steinbach. The late Peter Glotz opposed the ZgV data and was its president at the same time. Xx236 08:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm old enough to rememeber people like Sartre, Joliot-Curie, Ezra Pound being on someone's Webpage. Historical research isn't based on votes and intelectuals, but rather on critics of sources. Xx236 14:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Here comes a German opinion about other sources: http://www.freitag.de/2005/18/05180601.php Xx236 13:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In another words - you claim there is no connection beteen the Documentation... and the vision of history propagated by the FoE. Any sources? Xx236 13:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Where is the article you are refering to? Do they talk about their sources? Is there a serious proof for the validity of this numbers? -- Sushi Leone 20:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2+ million are general German looses in the East during and after WWII, including German crimes. 400 000 - 500 000 are German looses during the post-war expulsion from Poland and SU. Xx236 10:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, for posting this article. It is very interesting indeed! -- Sushi Leone 14:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Since most of the victims who died at the hands of the Danes in 1945 were expellee’s, (as stated in the Spiegel article), I think the subject of Danish treatment of the refugees should be inserted somewhere in the article. Der Spiegel article, Deutsche Welle article -- Stor stark7 Talk 23:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
A number of Germans were expelled from Alsace. A number of Kehl inhabitants were forced to leave, when the city was French (1945-1949). Xx236 11:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Poland again as the wildest nation of the East. Xx236 16:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
German historian Claudia Kraft describes the whole spectrum of Polish people attitudes toward Germans in
„reichte vom Ruf nach Vergeltungsmaßnahmen, die sich an nationalsozialistischen Praktiken orientierten sollten, über Gefühle der Gleichgültigkeit und Verachtung für ein kollektiv als schuldig eingestuftes Volk bis zu Beweisen von Verständnis und Mitgefühl für das Schicksal der von Verlust der Heimat betroffenen“ My source is part of the book Das polnische Breslau als europäische Metropole - Erinnerung und Geschichtspolitik aus dem Blickwinkel der Oral History: ttp://oral-history.euv-ffo.de/breslau/index.html Xx236 12:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
perhaps a translation is in order so that we may understand what it says.
-- Jadger 12:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The conflicts existed on low level, between individuals. No Polish-communist structure wanted and/or was able to oppose the Soviet Army. Soviet leadership, probably Stalin himself, defined the status of Sttetin/Szczecin. This article describes the fate of millions, why does it discuss such local matter? Xx236 13:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The first line says it's about The flight and expulsion of Germans after World War II. Why is the name of the article Expulsion of Germans after World War II? Xx236 14:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Also see Evacuation of East Prussia. Logically, we should have an article titled Evacuation of Germans from Eastern Europe which would include the information in Evacuation of East Prussia.
Now we have a problem: "Estimates vary by source, but it is generally accepted that between one and three million German civilians lost their lives" Your numbers include flight and expulsion. It's absurd to claim that 3 millions died during the expulsion. Is it allowed to include absurd data here? Xx236 11:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
No Jadger, I expect basic precision. If the article the Sun is about the Sun, not about the Moon, even if sometimes they look similar, the same the Expulsion of Germans after World War II is the Expulsion of Germans after World War II. If you want to rewrite the article to the Flight and expulsion - change the title and modify the text. Xx236 11:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that Jadger wants put every possible garbage on Polish back including Soviet and Nazi activities results. This is why he do not want recognize flee and expelled. He just got this inclination. He says himself he is biased. As such individuals he should be considered a trouble for Wiki. We need objective people. I appealed on discussion of "Recovered territories" to discuss the Jadger activity and bias and possibly remove the trouble. A-- 131.104.218.46 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:
Avoid shouting: It undermines a reasoned argument with the appearance of force through Italic text, Bolded text, and especially CAPITAL LETTERS, which are considered SHOUTING, and RANTING!!!!! Italics, however, can be usefully employed for a key word, to distinguish quoted text from new text and, of course, book titles etc. Xx236 15:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand the semantics involved in the English language - I understand this statement as a personal attack. You want to humilate me in an open forum, because I'm not a native speaker, rather than present your arguments. You make fun of my statements, but it was the German government who was responsible for the too late evacuation of German civilians, for the death marches, for defending cities like Breslau. Soviet army cruelties in 1945 didn't belong to Expulsion, the soldiers were allowed to have fun, even the BdV doesn't claim that there existed a Soviet order to expell the Germans using terror and I don't know any such order. The Soviets deported to Siberia not only Germans but Western Ukrainians and Poles. Such crimes aren't called Expulsions in any language, except German one. The Red Army murdered East and West of the Oder-Neisse line, but Germans from the SBZ weren't expelled, so why to call the crimes expulsion?
The Polish Army was controlled by Soviet leadership, commanded by mostly Soviet officers (the Polish ones in POW camps, killed in Katyn or fighting in the West), surveilled by Smersh and its Polish subdivision Główny Zarząd Informacji Wojska Polskiego. Xx236 15:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Soviet soldiers were allowed to rape, kill, burn whole towns, like in many European wars till the 17, maybe 18, century. It was frequently the only advantage they had before they died or became disabled. Only survivors were able to bring home watches, sometimes bicycles.
German soldiers in Poland robbed food and art objects, sometimes raped. Soviet-type cruelties were allowed during the Warsaw Uprising, non-German units and German criminalists committed the crimes, but German commanders were coresponsible.
Maybe you should present your ideas about the Holocaust on the Holocaust talk page? Xx236 10:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I haven't committed any mistake, so don't call your statements correections. Xx236 11:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
those are not my ideas, that is yours, I was just extrapolating it as a universal law, what is good for the goose is good for the gander after all. why should we exclude something from this article because it does not fall explicitly under the title, but include it in others? for the Holocaust we would have to make many articles, one for each way that a victim died, if your reasoning where to be made into a wikipedia guideline.
Soviet soldiers were allowed to rape, kill, burn whole towns, like in many European wars till the 17, maybe 18, century. It was frequently the only advantage they had before they died or became disabled. Only survivors were able to bring home watches, sometimes bicycles.
German soldiers in Poland robbed food and art objects, sometimes raped. Soviet-type cruelties were allowed during the Warsaw Uprising, non-German units and German criminalists [sic] committed the crimes, but German commanders were coresponsible. ya, point being? you are going back to the 17th and 18th century to justify the Soviet actions? come on! that is pre-laws of war, pre-Geneva convention, pre-modern even. I am assuming you were trying to justify Soviet actions, otherwise I don't get your point, what are you trying to prove? that war crimes were committed in Poland? yes, that is well proven, you have beaten that into wikipedia like Joe Louis did to Max Schmeling (the rematch, not the first). I am not going to do what you are expecting me to do and point out the fact that you are using war crimes committed by others as an excuse on a article discussion page about Polish warcrimes.
I haven't committed any mistake, so don't call your statements correections. See, this is exactly what is wrong, you think that nothing you have written has ever been gramatically incorrect, so when someone edits after you, you think it is a travesty and that they are dead wrong. Please be open to what other users contribute, and be open to what others change to your latest article version. Wikipedia is a team project, assuming when someone edits after you that they are destroying your hard work is counter-productive. please, be open to change, change is good, especially when it's in your pocket.
Also, you said German commanders were co-responsible, why do you think you needed to state that? the military is the same as any workplace with a hierarchy, the jobload goes down the chain of command, and the responsibility goes up it.
-- Jadger 12:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The Center against Expuslions claims that Poland and Czechoslovakia are responsible for Soviet crimes. They look quite happy, you overestimate my power. Xx236 14:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
These edits completely miss the point of the "wild expulsions". The desperate expulsions had the aim of creating conditions from which the Polish side could benefit as much as possible at the Potsdam agreement (no Germans in an area, no possibility of a German state there) because they thought the issue of borders was still in question, not because they wanted to follow the future agreement beforehand. [6] This also validates the sentence you wanted to adorn with a {{fact}}-tag, because if it had been clear to the Polish side that they were to keep the territories for annexation anyway, they wouldn't have worried about the borders in the first place and the wild expulsion wouldn't've occured.
Apart from that, the English could be improved and is there a good reason for replacing "expel" with "move out" and deleting the quotation?
As for the sentence "Acording to the terms agreed to at the Potsdam conference, the Soviet Union transferred territories to the west of the Oder-Neisse Line to Poland in July 1945," I don't get it. How is it possible for Soviet Union to act in accordance with the Potsdam agreement or Conference or whatever, when it hasn't even be reached or held? But the sentence you replaced isn't so much better. How can the Soviet Union ignore the future terms of an agreement? Maybe something like "Instead of waiting for the Potsdam Conference" would be better, or what do you think?
I've reverted the edits and would like you to discuss further changes of that nature before making them. Your message on Richard's talk page belonged here but was a good start. Sciurinæ 21:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
What says the term "Oder-Neisse line"? Doesn't it mean that the rivers Oder and Neisse are giving the line of future borders? My POV: the fact that land in the west of Oder and Neisse has been given to Poland is not acording to the Potsdam Conference negotiations and results. This shows us that negotiations and agreements with western allies have not been respected by USSR and Poland. USSR and Poland were interested in creating hard facts outside international negotiations. And they succeeded: no western ally wanted to oppose (user 82.207.181.26, Dec. 21st 2006).
This is a very interesting analysis of the whole expulsions/vertriebene phenomenon. I would like to capture some of the key ideas and insert them into the article although I suspect that doing so may give rise to some significant controversy. -- Richard 07:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what is meant by the word "wild" in the subheading "Wild expulsions May - July 1945". My best guess is that "wild" is intended to mean "spontaneous and uncoordinated by civil authorities". If this is so, we need to work on a better phrasing as "wild" is not the best way choice of words in English to convey this meaning. -- Richard 08:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 15:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"Die wilde Verteibung" means the expulsion before the Potsdam conference. Xx236 13:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about any umbrella terms in the Wikipedia. Words mean what they mean in standard English language dictionaries. I have a long experience of using Communist double-speak, in which freadom meant slavery, democracy meant dictatorship, so I'm against any umbrellas. The German state (against many German historians) continues the Vertreibung ideology. The English Wikipedia isn't financed and/or controlled by the German government. One means here one, flight means flight, expulsion means expulsion. If I'm wrong, I won't participate in a German propaganda project.
Germany and Russia used to write the history of Central Europe during the last 250 years, they don't any more. I hope so. Xx236 10:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
There is Evacuation of East Prussia, but neither Evacuation of West Prussia nor Evacuation of Silesia. Xx236 11:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't like your umbrella term. Xx236 11:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The title exists already. You are the only person against it. We should inform about the Expulsion of Germans after World War II here. If you want to write an article about the Evacuation of Germans during WWII (Flucht in German) , do it - but not here. There is a number of articles about Germans in 1945, repeating some data but omitting another ones. There is a lot of work to do. Xx236 16:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a title and there should be the text connected to the title. If you want an umbrella, produce it elsewhere. An article about after World War II actions cannot concentrate on WWII history. Xx236 13:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Silesian source [7] quotes Stalin in Potsdam: German population went after the Wehrmacht so it was necessery that a local administration existed in our army rear. ... So we allowed the Poles there.
I'll check if I have a Soviet estimate of the number of Germans there. Xx236 14:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If you are right, it means that someone (it's simple tio check who) manipulates the article. There is clear difference between the war and the post-war period, there is a clear difference between Flucht and Vertreibung. There are many German texts describing the history of German propaganda (see below). It's not a Polish-German discussion, but German liberals against German nationalists one. I believe that English after means after, not during. Xx236 14:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need less heat and more light in this discussion. I agree with Jadger that this article talks about both evacuation and expulsion although, as Xx236 points out, the emphasis is clearly on the expulsions. At first, the question seems to be whether we should change the title or change the content. This seems to be how Jadger is framing it.
However, I think the problem is not easily solved this way. There is a discussion earlier on this Talk page between Lysy and myself about "Merge with Exodus of Germans from Eastern Europe". We also talked about a "master plan" for articles related to the "History of Germans in Eastern Europe". Please read these two discussions earlier on this Talk Page and weigh in with an opinion.
Some quick comments: 1) I agree that there seems to be a gap in that we have Evacuation of East Prussia but no other evacuation articles. Someone who is knowledgeable about the evacuations should create additional articles or change the article title to Evacuation of Germans from Eastern Europe at the end of World War II
2) Even if we ultimately change the title of this article, we will want to keep an "Expulsions..." title that redirects to the new title since that is clearly the way many people think about this topic.
-- Richard 11:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The history of the Documents on the Expulsion ... should be mentioned. Xx236 09:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
[8], [9] Xx236 10:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Xx236 09:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I feel your Canada comment is directed at me (hence why Richard is lost). Unlike you Xx, I do not feel the need to pretend my nation has never done anything wrong. in fact, I admit that my nation has done wrong, we have had our own expulsion of the Acadians, but I do not go around denying it and trying to reword it to not sound so bad.
-- Jadger 04:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles generally don't judge past events using contemporary law. Generalplan Ost doesn't discuss legal problems of German expulsions at all, neither using the 1944 nor contemporary. Why does this article contain the statement "deportations could be considered"?
If there is a crime, there is also a criminal. According to many German sources the criminal is the Polish nation (sometimes also the Czech one). I don't pretend anything but I write about the people and nations who designed Europe 1945 and now preach about moralty and law.
Jadger, stop your ad personam comments. I have asked you many times.
Xx236 13:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
"The title wild expulsions comes from German wilde Vertreibung, and describes the manner in which the expulsions were undertaken by the Polish authorities, especially the military"
Xx236 14:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The article pretends that the crimes against Germans happened only outside of post-war Germany. However the same crimes took place in Germany, especially in the SBZ, later GDR - rapes, individual and state robberies, deportations to Siberian camps. German prizoners were transferred from Soviet camps in SBZ to Soviet camps in Poland. The facts are ignored or underestimated, because they don't pass to the nationalistic model. Xx236 14:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are absolutely right! But what do you mean with "nationalistic model"? What kind of "nationalistic model" is that and who is constructing it? What do you mean with "pretend"? Who is "pretending" / distracting here in wikipedia and what should be the motivation of the contributor? The most important thing: Should this article be about "crimes against german civilians" or the "postwar situation of poland" - or is it in the first place about the expulsion of germans after WW II? -- Sushi Leone 01:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Many cruelties happened East and West of the Oder-Neisse Line. All numbers of victims are added and included into the Expulsion of Germans after World War II. But Germans in the SBZ were persecuted, not expelled. Germans transferred to Siberia weren't expelled. So the term expulsion isn't precise. It's a literal translation of the German Vertreibung der Deutschen.
Xx236
14:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
How weren't those Germans sent to Siberia expelled? they don't have to be sent to Germany to be expelled, or are you telling me that they all wanted to go on working vacation in Siberia? So by that reasoning, Poles were not expelled to the General Government after the invasion, but just "transferred" or decided to go on a permanent holiday there? My travel agent has never suggested going to Siberia for vacation, maybe I ought to ask her why not?
-- Jadger 03:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Polish-German marriages were forbidden in nazi Germany. After the war they happened both in Poland and in Western Germany (Maczków). Mixed marriages are very rare in ethnic cleansing areas. Eg. Ukrainian nationalists murdered frequently Polish-Ukrainian families during the expulsion of Poles.
The numbers of Polish-German marriages would describe the intensity of the hatred better than biased contributors. Xx236 14:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Richard, I especially appreciate this edit of yours. I'm however a bit confused with this sentence "Some of these deaths were the result of direct, intentional actions of violent militias". Are we aware of any ? I'll remove part of this sentence from the article until we can explain this. -- Lysy talk 06:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
ya sure Lysy, Polish Home Army, Armia Ludowa, Leśni ludzie, etc.etc. the list could go on and on(that is, of violent militias like u said).
-- Jadger 07:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, would you please compare your stories with this Wikipedia? If you know better - correct the errors. If you don't know, don't spread errors.
So neither of the two existed after the war.
Anticommunist guerilla existed in Polish ethnic regions. I don't know about any Polish guerilla in former German lands, controlled frequently by the Red Army. Where did it exist?
Let's take the crime in Nieszawa. Als Täter war die Militz, die durch einen Parteigenossen der PPR Partei Mateusz Pawlak dazu angetrieben worden war. [10] - militia organized by Communist party leader Mateusz Pawlak.
Militias acted alswo in Czechoslovakia and France, where they perecuted French women. Why does this discussion concentrate on Poland? Xx236
Yes, the Home army was officially disbanded in January 1945, but we all know elements still acted after that, I am focusing on the fact that this article doesn't only deal with those that happened after the official end of the war, the war was over in East Prussia before it was in Berlin. Claiming every crime before 8 May should not be included because of some date given by politicians is ludicrous. You are free to add the information about the other militias as long as it pertains to this article, perhaps although collaborationists werent German, it could be added as a side note, that is up to you. Xx, you just proved that violent militias organized by commies existed and persecuted Germans, so I guess the sentence in question shouldn't be removed.
-- Jadger 19:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you misunderstood me. If there were any "direct, intentional actions of violent militias", they were incidental. They certainly are worth being mentioned, but not as if they accounted to deathtoll of thousands. Do you know otherwise ? -- Lysy talk 22:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course, but with due weight. Do not attribute millions of victims to organized deathsquads. I'm sure horrific things happened and each individual case deserves respect. But the lead of the article is intended as a summary, not a documentation of individual cases and we should be careful not to misinterpret the facts. -- Lysy talk 09:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
From the paragraph
"Though no international judicial body has considered the issue, the deportations could be considered a crime against humanity under international law as the International Criminal Court applies it today. However on the background of Nazi German murderers, cruelty and proportion of 1:10 killings the impersonal accusation looks very uncertainly to be practical."
the last sentence should be removed (and the first rewritten in line with de Zayas). The " impersonal" "accusation" of crime against humanity would certainly not be ignored just because of crimes on the German part. The whole sentence certainly comes from no source. As Dr. Alfred de Zayas, "a prominent expert in international law" stated: "With regard to the legal aspects of the Expulsion, were such expulsions to take place today, there is no question that it would constitute the violation of various provisions of international law." Read on. Sciurinæ 21:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
that last sentence was inserted by 131, and has been routinely removed by other users.
-- Jadger 03:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Show me one article about German crimes discussing legal status of them according to contemporary law. Because~there aren't any - prove you aren't biased putting this sentence here, not in hundreds of other articles. Xx236 14:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm unconvinced that the Potsdam conference legalised the expulsion, contrary to what the wiki article says. Not only did they lack the rights to unlimited power but Article XIII's main aim was to stop the "wild" expulsions. [11] I've removed the notion from the article in this edit. What is more, did the Potsdam agreement permit expulsions in the territories that were German before WWII? (Btw The article should also avoid one-sentence paragraphs. I don't know which guideline says so but I'm pretty sure there was one). Sciurinæ 19:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The right place to discuss the Potsdam Conference is its Talk page. Xx236 09:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be some concern as to whether direct, intentional killing played a part in the large number of deaths associated with the evacuation, flight and expulsion of Germans. I would argue that it is not worth asserting that direct, intentional killing played a significant role in the deaths unless it accounted for at least 10% of all deaths. Assuming for now that the number of deaths was somewhere between 400,000 and 2,000,000, we are looking for evidence to support somewhere between 40,000 and 200,000 deaths attributable to acts of direct, intentional killing. Whether these deaths were caused by individuals or militias is a secondary issue.
Another question would be how many of the deaths are attributable to Soviet concentration camps. Does anybody have information on these figures?
-- Richard 22:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Lubin - NKWD executed 500 handicapped in asylum and 150 elderly people. But NKWD wasn't any militia.
Many were senseless killings by opportunistic mobs and individuals - what is many here? Toward 2 000 000 - tens of thousands aren't many for me. Xx236 14:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it was even many tens of thousands. First group would be those who were killed by run wild victims of concentration camps. There were some descriptions I read in past. Second, some of communist criminal simpletons from delegatures on Recovered Territories could make some private robberies. (You know who the opportunists were very often). The third would be Volksdeutsche, who were born in Poland got revenges from before WW II and were very effective and knowledgeable traitor. I heard they were chased and I believe could be killed in more serious number. I would guess in total it would be 20 thou. They families have a right to mourning - I mean families not the all kind of organizations. However in comparison to the scale and format what Nazi Germany did it is very very little. It would be much more correct if the families would shed their tears more privately. The public multiplication of the numbers only reminds other nations about their deaths.-- 131.104.218.46 07:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
WOW 131, you leave me speechless and in awe (but not the good kind). I don't know how anyone can respond to that, or whether it is actually worth a response. please, this is not a place for you to guess or idle chitchat on the subject, please cite a source that backs up your claims so we can add them to the article. Who are you to tell people how to mourn the loss of thier family? I'm sure if you lost family members to senseless murder you would also raise an outcry.
-- Jadger 07:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to revisit the tone of this article. First of all, I think we need to make a good faith effort to understand whether we are talking about 400,000 or 2,000,000 deaths. This is not quite an order of magnitude difference but it is still a factor of 5x difference.
I thought the "scorecard" was ZgV 2,200,000 Overmans 1,100,000 and Haar 400,000-500,000. We should be able to give some sense of what the "distribution of credibility" is among these estimates. What I mean is "If you did a poll of historians who have some knowledge of the area, what would they say were the reasonable estimates and what would they say were less plausible estimates." I had previously been happy to say 1.1 - 2.2 million deaths with 400,000 being a new and low estimate. Does anybody have evidence to indicate how Haar's estimate of 400,000 has been received in the academic community (and in the news media)? Does everybody now say "Oh, of course, geez those ZgV guys were way over-exaggerating the numbers." Or do people say "Well, you know, Haar's methodology has its flaws and Overmans' estimates are really more reliable."
Wikipedia's NPOV policy does not require us to give equal weight to all points of view. In order to be a useful resource, we do need to give the reader some indication of the direction of mainstream thought on a topic, including mention of challenges to the mainstream doctrine and also characterizing flakier, fringe positions as such.
-- Richard 15:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
2 200 000 and 1 100 000 are maximal and minimal estimates of looses in the east, including flight, war and expulsion. 400 000 -500 000 are looses after the war. Overmans has published an article Rueidiger Overmans, "Personelle Verluste der deutschen Bev6lkerung durch Flucht und Ver- treibung," Dzieje Najnowsze, 1994, no. 2:51-66 (400 000 -500 000 - I haven't read this). Xx236 11:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Related to the "range of estimated deaths" discussion above, I also think we need to come to some conclusion about the relative contributions of "direct, intentional killing" vs. "deaths due to causes associated with the hardships of forced migration". When we compare the expulsions to the Holocaust, we are suggesting that the deaths from the expulsions were just as intentional as those of the Holocaust.
Obviously, no one was suggesting that the ethnic Germans be given first-class rail tickets with free housing, jobs and other social assistance. And certainly there were those who were happy to see the Germans suffer and even die as they fled and were expelled from Eastern Europe.
However, it is likely that many (perhaps even most) didn't really care what happened to the Germans and whether they lived or died as long as they were gone.
If you agree with me on this, then it is plausible that no more than a few tens of thousands or a couple hundred thousand deaths were attributable to "direct, intentional killing". I am not minimizing this number as if to say that the deaths of tens of thousands is unimportant.
However, in the scope of a tragedy that involves 1.1 to 2.2 million deaths, even 100,000-200,000 deaths is only 10-20% of the total number of deaths. Does anybody (i.e. any reliable source) shed light on this question? If we can source this, I think this would be an important point to communicate to the reader.
Look at it from the other perspective. Are we prepared to suggest that 50% of the deaths (500,000 - 1,000,000 deaths) were caused by direct, intentional attacks and that the other half were caused by disease and malnutrition?
I certaintly doubt that anyone would suggest that 80-90% deaths were due to direct, intentional attacks and that only 10-20% died from disease and malnutrition.
I would not propose to insert any of the above text into the article at this time because it would be unverified original research. However, I do believe this is an important issue for us to wrestle with and to determine what the reliable sources think on this question.
I forget who communicated with de Zayas last year. Whoever it was, perhaps he would ask de Zayas what he thinks about this question.
-- Richard 15:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
German Wikipedia gives the number of deaths in camps in Poland (mostly as the result of ilnesses) 60.000-80.000 . It's German, i.e. maybe overestimated, number. The other causes of deaths were:
About de Zayas - according to some German historians he is sometimes revisionistic, eg. when describing young Germans' attitude toward the lost areas. Xx236 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, please, what do you specifically mean by the "better reputation of German institutions" ? No offence but which ones ? -- Lysy talk 21:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I haven't quoted any general Polish estimates, because I don't know them. I quote academic German and emotional German.
It's German, i.e. maybe overestimated, number - many German sources overestimate the numbers of victims, e.g. for Łambinowice there is a German estimate about 5 000 and a Polish one 1000-1400, I don't remeber. One of the reasons was that the German author ignored the survivors living in Poland. I have written maybe to stress my doubts.
Why don't you verify the German source rather than attacking me?
Deaths in Poland should inform who was responsible - the mob, Soviet commanded army, Red Army or NKVD. Xx236 09:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The sub-paragraph partially repeats the last sentence above it.
The real history in Germany was:
Xx236 09:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
As I can see in the history of this page it is a target of continuous edit war. One side reverts changes of the other side and vice versa. Both sides sometimes breaks NPOV by adding unreferenced biased statements. One side put there it should be considered as a crime second side removes it and add what should be done with the graves etc. etc. etc. Just people make up your minds, this is encyclopedia here is no place for anything like shall be, should be, will be, going to be or for any personal revenge against anyone, here is place just for what was or were, for the history. Support your edits with references and get out with your personal thoughts about the topic. I wanted to hold back with comments but I must react to the current regtettable situation. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 13:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
would not be more acceptable to what you call "the other side", don't you think so too? The inconvenient legal dimension contrasts the simplistic shifting of all responsibility for the expulsion on the previous German atrocities. [14] Sciurinæ 16:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)"From a legal perspective, the expulsion of Germans violated the Hague Conventions and, applying the Nuremberg Principles, it clearly constituted war crimes and crimes against humanity. [13]"
I wouldn't call it an edit war as much as one user ignoring consensus and adding his own POV into the article, and being reverted
-- Jadger 23:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a controversial article. Some editors, especially anon IP users, come and go trying to insert their POV without attempting to determine what the consensus might be, let alone respect such consensus if it exists. These edits get reverted quickly and rightly so.
Other editors, usually with Wikipedia user accounts, are less transient and have been here for a number of months. However, due to the controversial nature of this article, there are many points on which there is no established consensus. Instead, there is a heated debate on this Talk Page. While the debate may get overly hot and overly personal at times, it is far preferable to debate here than to edit war on the article itself.
It would be good if we were all collegial and congenial to each other but, failing that, let us at least maintain civility and attempt to seek a consensus position by assuming good faith.
-- Richard 18:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The name of the article is "Expulsion of Germans after World War II". The first paragraph says "escape ... during 1945". Choose one - either after or during and after. Either expulsion or evacuation and expulsion. Is there someone serious around? Xx236 14:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is still the Evacuation of East Prussia.
The name you mean is German exodus from Eastern Europe. Xx236 15:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There are several problems with such title - part of East Prussia became later Poland, the other part didn't. There is a problem when Eastern Germany became Poland - in Spring 1945, after the Potsdam conference or after one of the Polish-German treaties. Xx236 09:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The information that the report was Soviet has been removed by an anonymous author. Why the only report quoted is about Polish cruelties (there are thousands reports about other cruelties)? Why is the word Soviet illegal? Why the article was frozen at that moment, rather than reverted? Xx236 11:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The book is just a mess. The sentence is cited as it is, and has in my perception no sense. Let the others see the stupidity. Seems to me if there was nothing the "events" had to be invented. The previous sentence ending page 75 and is: "Even the Soviet expressed shock at the Poles' behavior." end of page 75. Next is the sentence in article from beginning of page 76. The book is very interesting. Actually the Soviet officers occur as angels of mercy or similar creatures. Why so? You see Soviets have petrol and are strong thus it is not economical to blame them. Poland is other matter it is small country and can be the free booty. Be economical with the true. Good day for all. AS>
You know, many Germans see here the confirmation of their opinions - the Poles were the biggest criminals. Xx236 15:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. It should be erased but they will not do that until will find some excuse. I can not do that since only administration is now in power. The edition was my first step to press the manipulators to withdraw the "bla bla". It seems to me they could not found nothing worst except this and needed to improve the author who himself is also manipulator. The first switch with "by whatever means necessary" is a proof. AS>
OK, you guys, now User:Robdur has gone and protected the page from editing. This is not good but maybe it's what we need to cool down the edit war and move towards a productive discussion of contentious issues.
Andrew, (AS), please list your issues as succinctly as you can. Let us see if we can address your concerns.
As you have no doubt learned, just making edits without considering consensus leads to edit warring which leads to blocks and page protection. The admin in question did not protect the page to stop your POV from being included in the article. He protected the page to stop the edit warring (which, in my opinion, was mild and didn't warrant page protection yet). Nonetheless, we now have a good opportunity to force the debate away from edit warring and onto this Talk Page.
Robdur's talk page indicates that he is willing to lift page protection after about a week. Our ability to discuss and resolve the points of contention calmly and civilly will determine whether we have to wait that long. Above all, assume good faith and seek consensus. This means that, in order to get your POV included, you will probably have to accept that the opposing POV will also be included. Nobody has a lock on the truth and Wikipedia is not about truth but about verifiability. This means that you need to back up your assertions with reliable sources.
-- Richard 19:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, I find your teachings superflous. You are biased like a hell, you attack me without any logic and you teach people how to write. Xx236 08:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I understood you are particularly involved/interested in the article. In my opinion every of the Wikepedia articles should have a responsible person to edit it. Particularly the controversial articles need this two level edition. The editing person would be following the discussion and enter the conclusion from talk. Rest of the participants could complain to higher administration if the organizer would not run the business objectively.
The following are my concerns:
First my point is that the given numbers are absolutely unsure. Nobody actually knows how many Germans died in the years 1945-1948. The estimate range is from 400 thou up to 3 millions. In the article World War II casualties [15] the number of civilians deaths is 1,840,000 for all the period of WW II thus the 3 millions is something strange.
Cite 18: The 1939 Population is Germany within 1937 borders and the Free City of Danzig. Austria and the 7,100,000 million ethnic Germans of eastern Europe are not included in the German population [69]. However, the 500,000 military and 400,000 civilian deaths of ethnic Germans in eastern Europe are included with total German losses, after the war 5 million became refugees in Germany and Austria
First you should give at least proportion between cusses of death. Most above all we have to found a way to separate and evacuation casualties and the deportation casualties. If you can not we can not put the uncertain number (up to 3 million) in to one “package” and stick to it label “crime against humanity”.
2) The “by whatever means necessary” from Naimark, Russian in Germany. p. 75, I found inappropriate. There is put instead direct citation from First Secretary ofCommunist Party talk. This is the “foundation” of Naimark “expression”. He did not provide a source with the words “by whatever means necessary”. This words suggest planed cruelty and is wrong.
3) Leaving aside the Naimark accuracy I will give you some citation from the same chapter: Page 74/75: “Polish women were not spared the horrors of Silesian campaign either. Sometimes Soviet solders did not believe their protestations that they were Poles and not Germans; sometimes it didn’t matter to the rampagings soldiers.” -that how war looks, so…
Actually only last paragraph of the chapter: “Soviet Soldiers, German Women, and the Problem of the Rape” refers to Polish soldiers and Polish authorities.
I will give you the exact citation from pages 75/75:
“The Germans in Breslau,” wrote the city’s antifascist group, ”are steadily being spiritually driven into the ground [gehen langsam seelisch zu Grunde].” Even the Soviets expressed shock at the Poles’ behavior. (end the page 75). (start page 76) Polish soldiers stated one report, "relate to German women as to free booty". You judge yourself what is what and is it so important and terrible event to put it in Wikipedia article. Is this the thing which really proof: “The early phase of expulsion was often particularly brutal.” - The last sentence is Wikipedia creation.
4) The “Polish enclave in Emsland” does not provide a source and actually this was German territory under – who knows whose administration. Not under Polish one for sure. So what it has to do with deportation from Polish territory? And, there were some marriages – I do not know…
Xx236 08:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Meantime it is all, of course I will watch the article. My request is to be very careful with words and avoid irritations and provocations. It is highly political subject and only intelligent individuals are able to do the job for future good. AS>
Truly fascinating manipulations and general POV pushing going on here. The topic is deportations in Poland. Naimark, is an expert on European ethnic cleansing [16]. In a chapter on Russian mass rapes, he thought it was relevant enough to insert half a page on the behaviour of Poles during the phase in question, I.e. during the topic of the part of the article sub-chapter.
Some comments on AS comments.
What we have here are Polish authorities providing polish citizens with a "carte blanche" to engage in plunder and rape against Germans for the purpose of ethnically cleansing a territory that they wish to make Polish. The Poles make the most of the opportunity. It is not any more complicated than that. To have seasoned rapists such as the Soviets express shock at the Polish solidiers behaviour is highly notable, and probably explains why Naimark chose to include it.-- Stor stark7 Talk 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Noimark writes thus: The desperate situation for German women in Silesia was in general exacerbated by the Poles, whose "desire for retribution" was often as intense--for very understandable reasons--as that of the Russians. More often than not, the incoming Polish authorities were even less concerned about the safety of German women than were the Russian officers, to whom the German population turned for protection. After all the Silesian territories had been turned over by the Allies to Polish occupation, but not yet to incorporation into the new Poland. Orders went out from the Polish communists to expel Germans by whatever means necessary, to ensure incorporation as well as occupation.(31) As a result, the Polish administration of the new territories made little effort to protect local Germans from the deprivations of Polish or Russian rapists and thieves.(32) In a city like Breslau, the Germans fear of the Russians was quickly replaced by fear of the Poles. In fact, it was almost too much for the Germans to survive the Russian attacks only to have the Poles persecute them once again. "The Germans in Breslau," wrote the city’s antifascist group, "are steadily being spiritually being driven into the ground [gehen langsam seelisch zu Grunde]."(33) Even the Soviets expressed shock at the Poles’ behaviour. Polish soldiers, stated one report, "relate to German women as to free booty."(34) Note 31: Se, for example, Wladyslaw Gomulka’s speech to the plenum of the Central Committee of the Polish Workers’ party, May 20-21, 1945, in which he notes: "We must expel all the Germans because countries are built on national lines and not on multi-national ones." Antony Polonsky and Boleslaw Drukier, eds., The Beginnings of Communist Rule in Poland (London: Routhledge and Kegan Paul, 1980), p. 425. Note 32: See the short history of the German expulsion from Silesia, including some striking photographs, in HIA, Sander, box2, folder4. Note 33: Report from Breslau, August 15, 1945, SAPMO-BA, ZPA, IV 2/11/228, p. viii. Note 34: Biuro Informatsii SVAG, Biulleten’, no 84/88 (November 23, 1946), RTsKhIDNI, f. 17, op. 128, d. 151, l. 81. See also Serov to Beria, March 8, 1945, GARF, f. 9401, op. 2, d. 93, l. 336.
TO Stor stark7: Regarding: It is merely provided as an example in the footnotes. "Note 31: Se, for example, Wladyslaw Gomulka’s speech to the plenum…"
Regarding: Please do, he is an acclaimed historian.
Regarding: your point 3
Regarding: #4:
Hey where is the proof about "carte blanche" you are completely mad. Mr. N exaggerate and you follow. So you are offended that “Polish administration of the new territories made little effort to protect local Germans” well so, I say SORY the effort was “little” for sure German make “big” effort to make “order” in occupied Poland. We must know who did the “LITTLE“ and who did the “BIG”.-- 131.104.218.46 22:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss the various points of contention separately so as to help focus discussion. This section is intended to discuss solely the uncertainty around the estimates of deaths due to the expulsions and the causes of those deaths. Discussion of Naimark and "by any means necessary" should happen in a separate section.
First, I agree that it is very difficult to ascertain with any accuracy how many Germans died during the evacuation, flight and expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe. As the Estimates... article notes: the population balance methodology tends to yield higher numbers than the record of actual deaths methodology. It is reasonable to assume that the truth lies somewhere between the two but the two sets of numbers are so far apart that it is unclear where the true number lies (closer to one or the other or smack in between the two?)
The only NPOV approach is to mention the entire range and to suggest where the mainstream of scholarly thought is running. If German historians think 2.2 million and Poles think 400,000 then we should say that but we need to provide citations of German historians and Polish historians to back up the suggestion that the bias is based on nationality of the historian. If the numbers of the Bundes Statistischesamt and the ZgV are "old" and the numbers of Overmans and Haar are not only new but widely accepted as better, then we should say that but we need citations to indicate that the ZgV's numbers are being increasingly seen as wildly exaggerated. One or two historians coming up with new lower estimates does not prove that those historians are right. All we can comment on is the extent to which these lower estimates are being accepted by the scholarly community and by the popular media.
Second, it is even harder to attribute cause of death with any accuracy. We cannot be certain how many deaths occurred due to direct, intentional attacks and how many occurred due to exposure, privation and disease.
I agree that the article takes the general tone of "Expulsions were sanctioned by the Allies at Potsdam and implemented by Soviets, Poles, Czechs and other national authorities. As a result, 1.1-2.2 million ethnic Germans died. This was a crime against humanity."
For most of last year, the POV debate tended to center around whether the expulsions were justified and what justifications and motivations might have existed for the expulsions. Any debates about numbers tended to center around the Centre against Expulsions number of 2.2 million (based on the Bundes Statistischesamt numbers) and the Overmans number of 1.1 million.
However, the current POV debate is focused on a different question. That is, "How many Germans actually died during the period in question and what was the cause of those deaths?"
We now know that Ingo Haar has suggested that 400,000-500,000 is the maximum number that he thinks died although we have not seen the explanation in English of why that lower estimate is more reasonable than the higher estimates.
It appears from previous discussion that Overmans agrees with Haar on this lower estimate. (Did I get that right?)
However, I would wager that deZayas does not agree with the lower estimate. With whom does the mainstream agree? Or are there two factions who disagree strongly on this question? Whatever the case may be, it is our job to document the state of knowledge and opinion in the scholarly community. It is NOT our job to determine who is right and who is wrong.
However, 500,000 deaths is still a big enough number to talk about crime against humanity IF it can be asserted that most of the deaths were attributable to the expulsions as opposed to the harsh conditions in postwar Europe. What we're really looking for is an analysis of the number of excess deaths i.e. those that would not have happened if the Germans had been allowed to remain in Poland. If no
reliable source has done that analysis, then we are left with saying that it is unknown what proportion of those deaths are due to the expulsions. It would be interesting to know what Haar and Overmans have to say on this question.
-- Richard 08:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
During two years - 500 000.
The question isn't - how many people died, but rather how many of them died because of the expulsion. One should compare the mortality among expelled and among Germans. Some authors (Bacque) claim that that mortality was very high.
If you take 2 million, you have a genocide. It's the core why you need 2 million. You add victims of allied bombings, of Nazi crimes, of Soviet camps, of Soviet crimes in the SBZ and you call it expulsion. Xx236 11:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC) As far as I know the German Wiki doesn't quote any big crimes against Germans in Poland other than the camps, in which 60.000-80.000 Germans died, mostly due to ilnesses. Poles and Ukrainians were imprisoned in many such camps, and not during months like the Germans, but till 1945. Xx236 13:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Allied bombings of civilians is still a war crime Xx, and the strafing of civilians by the Red Airforce should be included in that. No one has said that all those separate ideas have been added anyways, you are just pulling that out of thin air, can you reference that? And also, the German wikipedia is not in question here, please stick to the topic. I fail to see your point Tulko, can you provide any sources that back up your claim that ~1 million of the expellees starved to death? As has been done numerous times before, it has been attempted to draw this offtopic so that nothing can get accomplished. Tulko, I know I cant compare this to the Holocaust, it took the Nazis 12 years to murder 6 million jews (500 000 a year) whereas it took the Soviets and their friends just a couple of months after the war to murder 2 million Germans, that is a far more startling statistic.
-- Jadger 16:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys. This discussion is interesting but is looking more and more like a general discussion board rather than a Wikipedia Talk Page. We are trying to reach consensus and we will not reach consensus by arguing points back and forth. Me personally, I am leaning in favor of Tulkolahten's general argument although not necessarily with the specific numbers that he proposes. However, it's all original research. You can argue back and forth for a year and not arrive at something which can be inserted into the article in compliance with Wikipedia's no original research policy. What we need are reliable sources who make this argument. Somebody go dig up stuff that Haar and Overmans have written and said. Surely there have been responses and debate to their opinions in the scholarly journals and popular media. Find those and quote them here.
That's right, I agree with you Richard. Discussion seems to be more and more POV just right time to stop it and return back to the original problem. Numbers which I provided are, of course, just an example of how high they can be. For 10.000.000 people in the Czech Republic that number is about 120.000 per year under good environment condition (not war or shortly after war). I just wanted to show that these numbers in the 15.000.000 population with many old people can't be lower, but probably X times higher. We can focus now for searching for some related documents. Because I think that this number should be significant. Also I am not sure if the estimation numbers counts with Paulus's army (250.000) or not. I am not against the truth but I don't like to see biased strong words like war crimes or murderers in relation to this. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 17:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
So you're saying that among these 15.000.000 people was a majority of fresh strong young men ready to serve in the army, huh ? NO Tulko, I'm not assuming anything (unlike you), I'm saying we must have a source that explicitly states what is to be added into the article. That is all I'm saying, We must use a source and not put conjecture in the article. Stop reading whatever you want into what I write.
I will reiterate what I said before, in case you missed it, as it seems you did by rewording it and pretending it was your own This discussion doesn't need to happen until they can provide sources that back up the claims made. The current article version is referenced.
-- Jadger 23:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's revisit Tulkolahten's argument (which, as I've said, I mostly agree with). Germans residing in Eastern Europe at the end of the war were either elderly, women, children or unfit for military service. Most of the able-bodies young men were probably in military service. So this civilian population was already likely to have a higher death rate. Add the privations of postwar Europe (famine, exposure and disease) and you have an even higher death rate. What was the "baseline" death rate (e.g. prewar?). What is the multiplier due to the factors that I've just mentioned? Is it 1.5x, 2x or 3x? If this is a "mainstream" argument, then surely some reliable source must have made it. Where's the citation?
For now, I think we should summarize Tulkolahten's argument while making it very clear that we have no way of knowing how many of the 1-2 million deaths are attributable to direct, intentional killing or, for that matter, attributable to the expulsion vs. attributable to the privations of postwar conditions in Eastern Europe.
-- Richard 00:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you can discuss if 99% were drafted or 98%. Do it however in an another place. Xx236 11:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
millions of ethnic Germans who lived in Romania - Jadger, learn - the time of teaching will come in the future. Xx236 08:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
well, there is what is already in the article, "Poles considering German women as war booty", etc. etc. Also, when was this "highly civilized" statement made? when the allied HQ was still minimizing and defending Soviet atrocities, or once the Cold War had started?
-- Jadger 16:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
So, are we saying that only Poles considered German women as war booty but not Czechs or any other country? No, we are saying those are the only ones that are verified and cited, whereas we do not know about those from Czechoslavakia or another expelling country. We are not saying that the Polish action was substantially different, we are simply giving an example of how it was in Poland. We do not know exactly how bad it was in other countries (until we find a suitable reference for Tulko's "highly civilized").
-- Jadger 15:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't agree with removing a reliable source because other sections don't have a reliable source that states something. not to mention that if the expulsion from other countries was not as bad as in Poland, why would a source mention something like that? it would be like saying "I am human" to someone, it is assumed, and only mentioned usually if it is not the norm. However, If we were to add statements like "the Red Army was also abusive of the German population, raping many women..." we risk minimizing the atrocities committed against them by saying it was commonplace. However, in the article there are numerous accounts of what happened in Czechoslavakia, fully cited, So I say let the reader see it for themselves.
-- Jadger 16:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
>It appears from previous discussion that Overmans agrees with Haar on this lower estimate. (Did I get that right?)
>It is NOT our job to determine who is right and who is wrong.
>However, 500,000 deaths is still a big enough number to talk about crime against humanity IF it can be asserted that most of the deaths were attributable to the expulsions as opposed to the harsh conditions in postwar Europe.
No reasonable person will accuse other individual for murder if has no certain evidence. Why some irresponsible nosily elements found possible and appropriate to accuse nations in similar sytuation? Surpassingly it seems to be the people with strong egoistic nature. There is no way to compare expulsion with crime against humanity because how to name the Nazi Death Camps, bombing civilians on open roads (Germans actions for clarification) etc. etc. total 55-60 millions deaths in WW II. NO WAY.
>Surely there have been responses and debate to their opinions in the scholarly journals and popular media. Find those and quote them here.
The only Polish monography of the subject is probably:
Xx236 11:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Revelant is that Germans have collected accounts and demographic data and they impose their point of view. Polish historians research details. Xx236 15:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The author works in Poland, I don't know if she has German or Upper Silesian roots.
"anderthalb Millionen Menschen verwiesen, die während der Zwangsaussiedlung und Flucht der Ost- und Sudetendeutschen ermordet oder Opfer der Entbehrungen wurden", which means that 1.5 million died during "Flight and Rxpuslion", which includes the war. Apparently 1.5 didn't die after the war. Xx236 08:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Except for Tulko that areas inhabited by Germans was taken before the capitulation, and the people were forced from their homes (expelled) before the capitulation. Soldiers have always expelled inhabitants from their houses in times of war, that has happened for hundreds of years. That is like claiming not a single meter of French soil was under German control before the French surrender in 1940. Also, I would like to point out that those that escaped before the Red army arrived did not expect to be giving up forever the land they and their families had owned for centuries. They were expecting to return to their homes after the war was over, just like everyone in the World. But when they were not allowed to return home (They then can be described as expelled). That is like you parking your car in the parking lot and someone coming along and stealing it. then the cops saying you left it so you gave up all your rights to your car. You cannot tell me you would be perfectly fine with that happening to you, Tulko.
-- Jadger 03:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
If the 3 million is a honest estimate than I honestly declare, that I assume that Jadger isn't honest. Xx236 07:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Among people there were no guns - just a few. But hardly enough to kill 3.000.000 people. And I suppose no one died before the invention of gunpowder then? There are inumerable ways to murder someone without a firearm. And I'm sure no one will find a discarded weapon in a warzone, right? (that is sarcasm) You are assuming the Polish population spontaneously expelled the German population, but it was a number of organized groups who also did it, the Red Army, the new Polish gov't, etc.etc. In some areas of the "recovered territories" there was absolutely no Polish population (the farthest west for example), so how did a non-existent polish population spring up and expell them? if it was spontaneous idea of the common Poles as you imply, then it wouldn't have been so similar across the board, and it wouldn't have been so effective, many Germans would have remained.
And also think about this - who was armed in these times - red army, allies forces, few revolution guards (it is a term, it was not a militia) and police, that's all. You are assuming what I refuted above, who is to say that it wasnt the Red Army and Polish gov't that expelled them? I sure as hell didn't. It is Germans expelled from (what is now) Poland, not necessarily Germans expelled by their Polish neighbours.
-- Jadger 16:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
>The problem here is that we're not interested in your knowledge (or mine either). We are interested in the knowledge expressed by reliable sources in published material. --Richard 21:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The 2.2 million is a black box, those people perished during and after the war. There is no slightest evidence that so many died during the expulsions as the result of the expulsions. Even German sources use the term "flight and expulsion". The title of this article is as it is. I have a deja vu feeling. Xx236 08:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
>Yes, I am coming to agree with this with the exception that there are 80,000 - 100,000 documented deaths of Germans sent to concentration camps.
AS 131.104.218.46 23:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I see the article is protected. Well done. I would sincerely suggest that everyone here re-reads the Wikipedia:Reliable sources. It provides most of the answers why Wikipedia favours scholarly sources like Ingo Haar over non-scholarly like Centre Against Expulsions. -- Lysy talk 16:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Irak is happening now, the expulsion was 60 years ago. Xx236 08:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The Centre Against Expulsions is not reliable (worth trust) since mix in one box expulsion and flight and name it EXPULSION. (end of sentence).
Richard, you did not answer me regarding the “80,000 - 100,000 documented deaths of Germans”. I think you should start to put such documented deaths together as examples and after that we can discuss the estimates. If we can not discuss hard evidence this "estimates" looks as pure political propaganda.
For the meaning of Concentration Camp this is a definition: The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.
The definition is taken from [24] anyway.
It seems the preliminary meaning is changing because tragic events. The same happen with swastika used, already in Sanskrit and by Slavs as symbol of four elements water, air, fire and soil. I will oppose naming something different then Nazi concentration camps with the same way "concentration camps" until we will clarify the difference of conditions in next sentence. There was nothing in proximity to this Hell on Earth made by Nazi.
According to Britannica: Internment centre established by a government to confine political prisoners or members of national or minority groups for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment. The prisoners are usually selected by executive decree or military order. Camps are usually built to house many people, typically in highly crowded conditions. Countries that have used such camps include Britain during the South African War, the Soviet Union (see Gulag), the U.S. (see Manzanar Relocation Center), and Japan, which interned Dutch civilians in the Dutch East Indies during World War II. A variation, called a “reeducation camp,” was used in Vietnam after 1975 and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Most notorious were the death camps of Nazi Germany, including Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Treblinka. AS>
Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau weren't typical "death camps". There is no precise term describing Nazi camps other than "concentration". German Wikipedia describes in its KZ article Bereza Kartuska, where one person died pro year and the Nazi camps. The German Wikipedia is very precise, but not there. Xx236 07:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
When this page is unprotected, I would like to add the following (with some further editing to avoid issues copyright violation)
-- Richard 16:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The link works for me but, if it helps, here's the URL http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=263131117051503
I get the gist of what you're saying but I'm a bit confused so please clarify. Also please try to fit it into the framework of the text above. According to Bjork, Nitschke identifies "flight" and "evacuation" involving several million people and several hundred thousand deaths. However, hundreds of thousands "made their way back" (presumably after the Soviet advance had turned into an occupation). Then there were "wild" expulsions followed by "forced resettlements".
Are you saying that some of the people who left during "flight" and "evacuation" were not allowed to return? I would think that these would fall into category of either "wild" expulsions or "forced resettlement".
Separately, I think a key insight is that this text asserts that several hundred thousand died during the "flight" and "evacuation". While I think we need more detail before we can arrive at a solid conclusion, this suggests to me that the 1.1-2.2 million deaths could well be supported as being the total for flight, evacuation and expulsion. This makes sense since the 2.2 million deaths comes from a "population balance" methodology and there is no way to separate flight and evacuation from expulsion using that methodology.
However, even using the lower figure of 1.1 million deaths and subtracting out several hundred thousand deaths from flight and evacuation, you still wind up with several hundred thousand deaths from expulsion.
What I think we need to understand is "what are the details behind the 400,000-500,000 estimate given by Haar and Overmans?". How did they arrive at those numbers? We need to see some tables similar to the ones that are in the current Estimates of deaths... article.
-- Richard 22:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I don't have access to JSTOR so I can't access the full text in the first link.
From Bjork's introduction to his review of two books related to the expulsions:
I would like to use some of the above text in this article because I think it puts the expulsions in an appropriate context.
-- Richard 16:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
As long as the obvious quips like (outside of Germanist circles, of course) are removed, I assume they would be of course. It seems mostly suitable.
-- Jadger 22:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I understand it, the "population balance" were only conducted for political reasons and the method was not used by any historian in any scholarly research. Does this method account for the German soldiers from these areas who were killed in action in other parts of Europe ? As far as I know many Germans perished in fights. -- Lysy talk 07:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Tulko, you are living in a dream world, there are no exact numbers known as this was a chaotic time period, and autopsies were not performed on the millions of bodies. No article on Nazi atrocities in Poland bothers to differentiate between those executed by the Nazis, and those who died as a result of the situation that was forced upon them by the Nazis. I agree with Richard, if you are to claim something different than what has already been verified, you must have very good sources.
Not only that, you must remember that the Nazis moved German "settlers" into this newly conquered land in order to make it into lebensraum, So if you are using pre-war census data the numbers will be lower than what the actual population was.
-- Jadger 21:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Where did you get that from Tulko? I did not say you can make up numbers because the exact number is not known, I said exactly the opposite of that! and Haar and Overmans has been extensively criticized, as they only count those that are known to have died and not those families that were massacred in the wilderness and not heard from again. Those that have been missing for 60+ years according to Haar and Overmans are all still living somewhere without human contact, in heavily populated Europed (according to Haar and Overmans)
-- Jadger 01:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I found an interesting perspective article: "Kollektive Unschuld" by Samuel Salzborn. -- Lysy talk 01:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
just read Demographic estimates of the German exodus from Eastern Europe, there are links that point to criticism of their "work". You are also fundamentally misrepresenting what they say. they do not say that only 500 000 died, they say at the least 500 000 died, as that is the known number of deaths. They do not say the number is not higher than that, they only say it cannot be lower than that (as that is the known number of verified deaths).
-- Jadger 04:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
perhaps you should read what I type tulko, or at least stop misrepresenting it. It is not circular reasoning, I said the links on that page, notably [26] for example.
-- Jadger 03:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
one can always say that any historian has a political agenda, wether it be leftist or rightist or pro-German vs. pro-Polish. Bergner is not making his own claims on the number of victims, he is simply stating the faulty reasoning in Haar and Overmans research. Your statement is like saying that one cannot correct another person for saying 2+2=5 unless they have a mathematics diploma or are trained to professionally teach mathematics (or in general are recognized as an expert in the field). I do not need to work for NASA to be able to say that stars are far away.
-- Jadger 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One more attempt to drive my point home. Consider the Vietnam war. Did the U.S. Army actually defeat the Viet Cong in 1971? Did the U.S. Congress hand victory to the North Vietnamese Army by refusing to provide support to the South Vietnamese in 1974/75? Was the war actually lost by the American left-wing? Is the way to avoid future Vietnams to follow the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force? Will anybody ever be able to answer these questions definitively?
What is most important here is not that Wikipedia answer these questions but rather that Wikipedia inform the reader that 30 years after the fall of Saigon, people in the United States are still debating these questions. We should let the reader know what conservatives think, what liberals and progressives think and we should ABSOLUTELY NOT TRY TO DECIDE who is right.
A similar approach could be used for the topic of this and related articles.
-- Richard 07:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to quote Congressman Reece. Eventually as a cold war propaganda example, but it's not the right article. Congressman Reece is noone outside the USA. The article
B. Carroll Reece doesn't prove his expertise in European matters. No Reece here, if you don't have rational reasons.
Xx236
09:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
If US propaganda is quoted, why not the Communist one about deserted Eastern Germany or good conditions of the deportations? Xx236 08:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Why the word expulsion is being used? It's pro-German bias. Xx236 08:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
you missed my point, he is not criticizing the number these historians have created, but how they got the number, he is criticizing their methodology. the mistake in their methodology is so glaring it can be corrected by anyone, not just someone who writes books on history.
-- Jadger 14:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Very sad that this article is blocked now and that Polish and Soviet crimes are done away with. Nowhere is historical eastern Germany mentioned. Nowhere the established number of 2.5 million casualties after May, 1945, due to the expulsion brutalities. Nothing about the destruction of German culture and buildings and monuments. It is very sad that wikipedia offers the opportunity to spread Polish-imperialist propaganda and does not recognize what Alfred de Zayas wrote on the mass murder against the eastern Germans and the ethnic Germans in other European countries. And I am not even a German. It is very sad to read I can no longer edit this article which totally denies historical facts incovenient to Polish populism and Russian mass opinion. Smith2006 20:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Tulko, stop deflecting the attention from the actual thing at hand, all of your comments reak of tu quoque fallacy. This article is about the Former Eastern Germany, not about Stalingrad, go bitch about Stalingrad on its own article. (sorry for the language, that is the best way to sum it up though) Two wrongs don't make a right Tulko, stop trying to minimize what happened to the Germans. What happened to others is no justification for the severe mistreatment and murder of civilians in the former Eastern Germany.
-- Jadger 04:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you are a nativ speaker, so your responsibility for the languge is much higher than mine (and maybe Lysy's). You use your superiority to attack us, rather than to write a good article. Xx236 09:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
If people understand de Zayas' books the way Mr Smith does, it proves that de Zayas is a hate monger. It's interesting that mr Smith ignores the British and US participation in the 2.5 million - direct by bombs and indirect by accepting Stalin's conditions in Yalta and Potsdam. Xx236 09:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you are assuming, where did I say that I agree with that? I would like you to quote me please, and provide a specific link to the edit version that I did it in. these sources didn't prove anything, they give another estimate, but they do not quantifiably say "this is how many people died, and there is no way a single more person could have died." what they do say is that atleast this many died, not that only this many died. And pointing out a fallacious argument is not a personal attack, I'm sorry, but please don't take offense to me correcting you. Haar and Overmans say that only those with documented deaths can be included in the official number of dead, they do not say that no more died. that is like saying all those soldiers who are MIA from WWI and WWII did not die. Of course, there are no (or very few) missing soldiers from the First World War still alive somewhere that haven't contacted their families in 90 years. Again, I would like to reiterate that Haar and Overmans estimate the number of dead, as with everyone else that has weighed in on the subject. what Haar and Overmans say is that we know atleast this many died as there deaths are recorded, they do not say that only the number they give could have died
-- Jadger 18:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
yes, I think a direct citation is in order please Lysy. and how does he know point 1)? has he found them? and 2) of course it was higher than stated, the Brits did the same thing during the battle of Britain, but how can he be certain that all are accounted for then? and we are not talking about propoganda films here, but official records, the federation of expellees did not rely on wartime newsreels to gather numbers, but official records, they would have known who had died at the front, and discounted them from the list.
-- Jadger 04:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We stalled in the local minimum. So I propose to summarize what we already have here. How many deaths is our final conclusion ? What Haar and Overmans said and is Centre against expulsions reliable source or not ? ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 10:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have quoted an answer to Haar - counting victims of the expulsion is arithmetics, the German government prefers the general numbers. The German government doesn't write the English Wikipedia. Xx236 10:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
1.7 unaccounted but not in "post-war" but during the last months of the war and after the war. Xx236 10:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Not postwar. Even German sources admit that the big numbers relate to "flight and expulsion", the "flight" was organised by Germans during WWII. Xx236 10:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
2.2 million died during the exodus from Eastern Europe, of which the expulsions are a major part of or something like that.
-- Jadger 18:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Why would we want to have this "of which the expulsion was a major part" addition ? This could mislead the reader to believe that most of the 2.2 million died during the expulsion. I would rather avoid such suggestions. -- Lysy talk 22:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Also (sorry, I feel like running in circles, too), where did we get the 2.2 mio number from ? Is this the number resulting from the "population balance" method again ? -- Lysy talk 23:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
but saying 2.2 million died during the exodus from Eastern Europe will confuse the reader more, as they will think "woah, what is this exodus from eastern Europe? I thought this was an article on the expulsions". And the word I used was major, not most, H&O state 400 000-500 000 as the minimum number of dead, that is almost 25% of 2.2 million, I would classify that as major. and Exodus includes both flight and expulsion, what other parts of it was there? if it is just flight and expulsion that make up exodus, then of course it was a major part.
-- Jadger 04:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The text below comes from a link provided by Xx236 some time ago.
I more or less understood the opening paragraphs of the article but my command of German is too weak to understand the whole article. I understand just enough to feel like it's important to understand what is being said but not enough to actually understand it.
-- Richard 10:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The last comment by Overmans [27]. Xx236 10:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Is such language acceptable? Xx236 10:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm only asking the experts - is such language acceptable? Why noone has protested or changed the title? Xx236 10:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The Flight wasn't an Expulsion. Eventually an Exodus. There is a basic difference - who was responsible for the people at given time - German, Soviet or Polish/Czech authorities. I know, but the article is adressed to readers without basic knowldge. Xx236 08:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
he never personally attacked anyone, he created a severely biased title for a discussion, but no one said that is illegal. unless of course there is a user:Polish that has been editing this article but I have somehow missed it. He only personally attacks someone if that person themself believes their own comments are chauvanistic or outright lies. It is simply a title on a discussion thread, judge him for his statements and his critiques of others, not for creating an eye-catching header. that being said, I do not support the title at all.
-- Jadger 18:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
All this said, I'm sure we do not need to discuss this one any more. -- Lysy talk 19:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Some numbers that I found:
Different estimates of the number of Germans expelled by Polish army alone during pre-Potsdam deportations (all numbers after Jankowiak, p. 93):
On top of that 365 - 1200 thousand Germans were deported by Polish administration (Jankowiak, p.119) -- Lysy talk 17:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Now a bit of original research: based on the above numbers, the number of Germans deported from Poland (1945-1949) could range from 3 to 5 million. -- Lysy talk 17:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
the Centre Against Expeulsions says 2.2 million, it is Reece who said 3 million, you are either misrepresenting those you oppose, or are severely mistaken and need to research the matter, or at the very least read the article you are commenting on.
-- Jadger 18:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
and notice where in Lysy's statement number of Germans expelled by Polish army alone this does not take into account the other non Polish Military forces that participated. So no, more Germans did not have to come from Germany to be killed. and it is unclear as to whether all sources refer to prewar borders when speaking of the expelled being "expelled from Poland" or post war boundaries.
-- Jadger 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
No, no, guys, these are not numbers of deaths but the number of Germans expelled from post-war Poland territories both by Polish army (0.2 - 1.2 m) and other Polish administration (0.37 - 1.2 m) before Potsdam plus 2.6 mio expelled after Potsdam, where we have more firm numbers. And my original research is summing these three numbers and claiming that the number of Germans expelled by Poles from post-war Poland territory in 1945-1949 would be something not lower than 0.2+0.37+2.6 = 3.17 million and not higher than 1.2+1.2+2.6 = 5 million. -- Lysy talk 19:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
“At least 500,000 Germans died during the postwar period which encompassed the evacuation, flight and forced expulsions of Germans from Eastern Europe.” Looks reasonable, it says all what can be said with dose of science and neutrality. However this is all. When no more exact number or death causes can be specified further “estimations” over the “At least..” are speculations and provocations.
“Above all, we clearly see two dangers. First, in the historical dimension, there is the danger of de-contexualizing the past, thus breaking the causal relationship between the Nazi policies of radical nationalism and racial extermination on one hand and the flight and expulsion of ethnic Germans on the other hand. Secondly, in the political dimension, there lies the danger of an ethnification of social conflicts, that is, the habit of interpreting political and social controversies in ethnic terms - and by that, in cementing the specific German völkisch ethno-nationalist tradition of viewing past, present and the future in ethnic terms. We therefore propose that a common European examination of the past based on a pluralistic, critical and enlightened discourse is much more useful than a debate on one or another variation of a "Centre against Expulsions".”
Wow, Andrew/Serafin/131 rears his ugly head again and evades the block yet again. I'm glad we both have the same taste in our mouths now Tulko (that is, if you are disgusted with me as I am with you, but I think denial is far worse than losing your cool when a vandal personally attacks you and vandalizes a page, as that quote is taken out of context).
-- Jadger 04:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC) "500 thousand killed" - one more example of cheating. 500 000 died as a result of the expulsions, mostly because of infectious diseases. The number of killed after the war is much lower. Xx236 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
cheating? lol, you can't be serious. most of the people who died in the Holocaust died of diseases like Typhus that were pandemic in the camps, but they are still all referred to as murdered. don't try to apply a double standard. the people wouldn't have contracted those infectious diseases if they hadn't of been forced from there homes. And you don't understand the semantics of killed. it is common to say "_____ was/were killed by ___(insert favourite disease)" it is the word murdered that you don't want anyone using.
-- Jadger 00:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC) "most of the people who died in the Holocaust died of diseases like Typhus " - name your source. Xx236 09:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
no it doesn't, as the article specifically states that it was the Soviets as well as those mentioned above by you who did the expelling. how can you split them? when in many instances the Poles, Czechs et al aided the Soviets in the expulsion, pointing the finger at their German neighbours, or in some cases, pointing at their rich neighbours (Polish or German) so that they could loot their belongings once they were expelled. I would like to know how Tulko proposes to clearly differentiate between those expelled by the Soviets, those expelled by the Soviets with the aid of local Poles/Czechs/whoever, those expelled by the Polish government, and those forced from their homes by angry anti-German mobs of Polish/Czech citizens. And remember Tulko, we need you to cite a source that gives us exact numbers for each group, not a source like Haar and Overmans that say atleast this many were killed.
-- Jadger 20:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
again, Tulko misrepresents/misinterprets what his opposition has said. If an elementary school child can count the number of natural deaths, how come none of us can Tulko? OMG, your reasoning is so bad it would make me laugh if it wasn't defending atrocities "Second is calling it a war crime - nobody was charged, that's the fact." so you're saying because no one was charged, it wasn't a crime! that is pure hogwash, nobody was charged from the Armenian Genocide, and no one was convicted of Nicole Simpson's murder, so according to you she was not murdered. or perhaps Jon-Benet Ramsey wasn't murdered, as no one has been charged with her murder yet. That is your reasoning, and it is atrocious. Again, you make up stuff to misrepresent your opposition, when did anyone say there were deathcamps set up? there were holding camps were people were murdered, but not death camps.
And 2000 people were killed in one hour in Treblinka, but then they had to clean up the bodies and get more gas. it was not a conveyor belt of jews going into a gas chamber, although it certainly was atrocious. citing the time it took for them to die is misleading, that is like counting how long it takes one round to be fired from a gun, and then dividing 60 by that number and saying that is how many rounds per minute you can fire, but you don't count in the reload time. Treblinka did not have the supply of gas to kill 2000 jews an hour for all the time of its operation. But again, you are taking us off-topic Tulko, we are not talking about the atrocities in Treblinka, but the atrocities committed against Germans after WWII.
-- Jadger 16:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
yes, the Centre against Expulsions, Federation of Expellees et al all claim it was a crime against humanity. If it wasn't a crime against humanity, what was it? Don't tell me Poland and the rest of eastern europe went on vacation from 1945-1948 (see here to understand what I am saying). As for your attempts to paint me as a holocaust denier, your insults do not warrant a response. I am not here to feed a troll, but to discuss the issue so we can get this page out of protection. And you are sounding an aweful lot like user:Serafin with that last response, I'd be careful not to get blocked if I were you.
-- Jadger 19:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
And I claim that the Centre against Expulsions is higly biased. It's interesting that the late President of the ZgV gave much lower numbers of victims in his book than the Centre. Split personality? Xx236 08:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read what I wrote? I never said I wanted you blocked, I said if you continue making comments and editing like user:Serafin did, you will be blocked for violating wikipedia policy. Blocking someone is the last resort, and I hope it can be avoided in all cases. so you claim you wanted an explanation of a sentence I wrote, that doesn't mean you have to imply I am a holocaust denier in your question. And also, your questioning is non-sequitur, I said that Treblinka did not have the constant supply of gas that required it to kill that number of people every hour for every hour from the time the camp was built to its liberation. Let's disect my sentence: a) I accepted that Treblinka exists b)I accepted the number of people murdered per hour that you gave, assuming good faith, although you didn't cite a source (thus, I am clearly not a holocaust denier). now, how does your asking if I thought the holocaust never happened follow from me saying that Treblinka was a horrible place where jews were gassed? That is a loaded question, with an implied negative connotation to the person who replies. You certainly would not support someone asking you "when did you stop beating your wife?" or "when did you tell your parents you are gay" when neither of those are known as a fact. these are of course examples and I am not asking you them, but please, have some common courtesy.
-- Jadger 05:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, I believe you don't have any right to judge other people activities here, because you do evil things yourself. Xx236 08:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
What was the edit war, that led to the article being protected. Was it over the Naimark ? Can we revisit this reference again and see if it was properly used ? Was this:
the controversial part ? Whose opinion was that ? -- Lysy talk 23:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 23:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. From the edit history I understood that one of the anonymous editors contested the Naimark references, suggesting that they were misinterpreted. Can anyone present the exact citations from the book for reference ? -- Lysy talk 23:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
he was blocked, but evaded the block, and I reverted him. ask anyone on here, I was reverting to consensus, and everyone but Serafin agreed with me, they had also been reverting him, I was the only person online when he was vandalizing the pages, so I was the only one of us available to stop his vandalism. BTW, he has been blocked permanently from editting both the German and Polish wikipedias for his actions, so I wouldn't defend a known and proven vandal if I were you.
-- Jadger 00:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Are we able to agree on a single version and consider it as a "consensus state" ? How about this one ? I mean, I know nobody is happy with it but would we be able to accept this version of a fresh start, and starting from it, try to avoid making any edits to it unless a consensus on the edits is reached first ? What do you say ? -- Lysy talk 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
what is going to be added then? I think a list of things to be added should be created here before unprotection, as the discussion has been awfully confusing and we have discussed the same things over and over.
-- Jadger 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As Jagder says, there has been so much back and forth argument that it is hard to tell what has been agreed to. While I would like to change the intro to capture the meaning of the text proposed below, I am really proposing the text with an intent of capturing the general consensus. We will have to express this consensus in different places in this article and in the Demographic estimates related to the expulsions of Germans after World War II article.
Your comments, criticisms and suggestions for improving this text are, of course, welcomed.
-- Richard 09:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Do you claim that 2 000 000 died after the war? Where exactly? Name the places of the mass killings and the numbers. We have discussed here a number of cases from the rather biased German Wikipedia. Do you know more than the German Wiki does? Xx236 16:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
civilized and organized without massive killings
Xx236 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Polish historians suggest that at least 500,000 Germans died - who does? Xx236 10:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Xx236 11:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I can provide a source and direct quote a source that proves exactly the opposite of what Tulko is saying, that is that all the expulsion in Czechoslovakia was civil and humane. Also, I do not like the sentence many would have died anyway due to the privations of postwar Europe which included famine I highlighted the word I don't think is suitable
-- Jadger 15:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not have access to the book right now, so I cannot quote it exactly. The Book is The Blonde Knight of Germany, a biography of Erich Hartmann (that article links to the ISBN number). to give you the gist of it: His unit ( JG 52) surrendered to the Americans in Czechoslovakia, but was turned over to the Russians. The Russians herded them together in a meadow with ethnic German civilians, the Russians proceeded to rape the women, forcing the men to watch as their wives and daughters were repeatedly gang-raped. during the following night, many of the people committed suicide in order to prevent this from happening to them again (suicides where thus a consequence of the harsh treatment by the expellers, and no one can claim that the suicides should not be counted in the number of dead from the expellation). After a period of time, the people were either sent to occupied Germany, or as in the case of Erich Hartmann, sent to a Soviet Gulag.
-- Jadger 00:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think by some reason you can not believe that Russians and other nations displayed less cruelty then Germans.
Well, sometimes I do not believe myself. After the savagery of German Nazis the other people show, in total, human attitude. I think, maybe because the Nazis’ savagery was disclosed for many people longer time after the WW II. What is your reason Richard you can not beleave for less taragic history than the one which imagination suggests?
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As Lysy pointed out above, the structure and tone of this article is heavily driven by the German-Polish POV-pushing by various editors in the past. I got here via an RFC and I think I helped move the article to a more NPOV position. However, there is still the general approach that blame for the expulsions should be ascribed to one party or another. As Lysy and XX236 point out, there was no single act called "the expulsion" but rather a series of evacuations, flights and expulsions. We should revisit the German exodus from Eastern Europe article and consider how to weave a single cohesive and comprehensive narrative that gives an appropriate NPOV perspective on the whole sorry tale.
-- Richard 14:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Mr Lysy one who can not go back is victim of an Expulsion if he flight ore was evacuated, so the numbers should be counted together.
Johann
I think the above discussion with Johann risks becoming an argument about definitions that are perhaps not worth fighting about right now.
Getting back to the primary topic, I think that the overarching article should be German exodus from Eastern Europe with the discussion of flights, evacuations and expulsions being subsidiary articles.
This is sort of the case right now but if you look at the two articles German exodus from Eastern Europe and Expulson of Germans after World War II, you would think the two articles were written by two authors who never spoke to each other. This is not completely true since I did make some effort to rationalize the two articles a few months ago but I think we should revisit them and start to build a comprehensive framework on which we can hang all the material that we want to presnt.
If there is enough material to focus on individual locations such as East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, Hungary, Lithuania etc, then we can create separate articles for those but, so far, I haven't seen enough material to warrant a specific article with the possible exception of the Wilhelm Gustloff (ship) article.
-- Richard 21:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree with Lysy that the whole topic should be displayed in phases separated more clearly from each other in terms of time (1944, 1945, 1946, etc.) and location (Poland, Hungary, etc.) as otherwise the impression might be created that eg the Poles are responsible for 1 million overall casualties. As for the notion of "expellee", we should keep in mind that also the ones who were evacuated or fled before they could be expelled are expellees as they were NOT allowed to come back. ( 194.9.5.10 09:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Ok, good idea. ( 194.9.5.10 09:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
Furthermore,in the course of a restructuring of the article, I would propose to reconsider the current order of reasons for the expulsions. It is not questionable that the "attempt to restore pre-Nazi demographics in the areas where native populations were displaced by Nazi ethnic cleansing and expansion" was one of the reasons, but I doubt that it was the main reason. In my opinion the main reason was the Potsdam Conferrence where Stalin managed to politically perpetuate the military status quo of 1944/45. Please to not misunderstand me, but I have the impression that Stalin was not very interested in what the people of Middle and Eastern Europe the territoties of which were occupied by the Red Army thought about the expulsion (like he was not in 1939 when concluding the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty). He was just interested in securing the extension of the Soviet sphere of control gained in 1945. However, I would appreciate if we could discuss this issue as well in the course of the planed restructuring of the article. ( 194.9.5.12 09:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
This is a very old discussion, because since 1945 some Polish and others try to convince us that the one witch fled before the Russian and Polish army overtook the area where not part of the expulsion and where anyway already in Germany. But it was refused that they could go back in their homeland so they where in fact part of the expulsion victims not physical but administrative because they lost their possessions and where refused to return.
Under your argument the Bosnians of the Serb Republica would not be part of an expulsion because they fled , like they would have fled voluntarely.
So you can not say this people are not part of the expulsion, and you can not completely make a difference between what happened while the war was still going on and after the war because in reality their are not clear cut lines like in books.
Johann
I think nobody here challenges this as a fact (please read the comments carefully). The discussion at hand is rather about the question how to reasonably divide the whole topic (=exodus or expuslion) into several phases in terms of time and locations (eg: evacuation, flight, expulsion). (
194.9.5.10
15:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
I've shuffled a bit the subsections of the "Controversy over reasons and justifications for the expulsions": Moved "An attempt to restore pre-Nazi demographics in the areas where native populations were displaced by Nazi ethnic cleansing and expansion." to the bottom and "Compensation to Poland for territories occupied by the Soviet Union". Still, I have to admit, I'm not feeling comfortable about this section and would prefer that we leave it until later. The reasons given are of various weight, some are Poland-specific, others are more general, most of them are just speculations (although often very reasonable), and all this lacks any support in sources. It's also highly controversial and we could discuss it for ages without much progress. So my suggestion is to leave it for now and focus on the more general problems of the article instead. -- Lysy talk 17:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to attempt to define the phases, but first we need to make a decision of the understanding of the "expulsion" term in this article. Do we limit it to "organised post-Potsdam population transfers" and leave all the other events to be discussed within German exodus from Eastern Europe ? Or should we rather use the "expulsion" name to call all the exodus phases ? Obviously there are good arguments for and against each of these, but until we make a decision, we cannot consistently think of the structure of the article, as it will mix different understanding of the term by different editors. Shall we make a quick survey to see if we are at any consensus about this ? -- Lysy talk 17:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should generally define the notion of an "Expellee" at the article`s very beginning and then divide the topic into its phases (eg: evacuation, flight, expulsion). Within the phases one may use the respective description of what factually happened (eg: evacuation, flight, etc.).
As for the general definition, we could eg use the definition of a displaced person ("Vertriebenen") under sec. 1 of the German Federal Displaced Person Law (§ 1 Bundesvertriebenengesetz) i.e. everyone who fulfilled the following criterias "enjoyed" the status of a displaced person:
Pursuant to sec. 1 a displaced person is a person who
1) as German citizen or a person of German ethnicity
2) had his domicile in the former German eastern territories standing under foreign administration or in the territories beyond the borders of the German Reich as of 31 December 1937, and
3) has lost such domicile in connection with the incidents of WWII due to expulsion in particular by eviction or flight.
("Vertriebener ist, wer als deutscher Staatsangehöriger oder deutscher Volkszugehöriger seinen Wohnsitz in den ehemals unter fremder Verwaltung stehenden deutschen Ostgebieten oder in den Gebieten außerhalb der Grenzen des Deutschen Reiches nach dem Gebietsstande vom 31. Dezember 1937 hatte und diesen im Zusammenhang mit den Ereignissen des Zweiten Weltkrieges infolge Vertreibung, insbesondere durch Ausweisung oder Flucht, verloren hat.")
( 194.9.5.10 17:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
proposal: as the Law was issued in the 50ies we should accordingly ammend no 2) of the definition as follows:...of the FRG as of 12 September 1990..." (treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany)
( 194.9.5.10 17:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC))
I've just read German exodus from Eastern Europe as Richard suggested earlier, and my conclusion is that it is in much better shape and has the structure that our article here is missing. On the other hand it's very brief on the expulsion itself and it the Expulsion of Germans after World War II as the main article on this particular topic. It also discusses the other "phases" and the background of the exodus. I'm sorry for not being consistent with myself now, but after a closer look at the "exodus" article, I would suggest to either:
or
Any thought on this ? -- Lysy talk 18:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, it seems more reasonable. I would suggest the following sections to be renamed and bulk transferred at first:
and them both articles would need to be polished, naturally. -- Lysy talk 19:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
All right, if nobody objects soon, I'm going to be bold and will be soon moving most of the contents of "The results" and "Legacy of the expulsions" sections to German exodus from Eastern Europe. I understand that these too had been agreed upon so far. -- Lysy talk 19:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
per se but are nevertheless considered Germans rather than being considered Poles, Czechs or Slovaks. Does that help?
P.S. How great it is to just say that I am an American without having to say that I am an "ethnic Chinese" who happens to have been born in America. How great that China cannot claim California because of the many Chinese who live here. Of course, the Mexicans outnumber the Chinese so we're more likely to become Mexican than Chinese. ;^)
Hi! As for Volksdeutsche, I know that this notion sounds fairly odd and I have not invented it but it was presumably necessary to include all the people of German ancestery living outside the boarders of the German Reich of 1937 into the scope and the protection of the Law (for historical backround please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche) ( 194.9.5.12 08:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
Comment to the recent note (reverted) of User:194.9.5.12. I think that our objective is to focus on the expulsion (maybe exodus) and the discussion above is only because Richard thought it would be good to sketch a wider picture first, so that we better understand where the expulsion fits, what it is and what it is not. We can slowly move towards achieving this more strategic framework (with all possible modifications disputed, including Drang nach Osten, naturally, which I used as a short name for the 19th century colonization) but for now I think we all agree that the focus is the expulsion/exodus. Now I think it would be good to recruit reasonable German and Polish editors to discuss and hopefully support this motion. -- Lysy talk 10:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. To be honest, I had not read the discussion above carefully before inserted the comment, sorry. When I discovered the comment was nonsence I canceled it in order to prevent a needless discussion about it. ( 194.9.5.10 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)) ps: Sorry, Richard, I do not want to start a discussion about that topic but also the treatment of Afro-Americans in the 18th, 19th and in the south of the USA even in the 20th century (just think of seats in buses for white and black people) shows that the "idea" of ethnicity was not unknown in the USA ( 194.9.5.10 10:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
The founding of the USA isn`t the topic here, but I ve read your little chat here and I`m really surprised that you didn`t mention the perspective of the indigenous peoples - I guess they might have a different opinion about that! What do we learn? In order to gain objectivity, we need to approach the topic from different angles and start a intersubjective dialogue. When you decide to feature the "Drang nach Oste" idea, you have to mention it`s "counterparts" Pan-Slavism, Austroslavism or even the All-Polish Youth etc. as well. Im pretty sure this would lead to pointless disputes and far away from the core of the topic. The questions are: What do you what to express here? What is the point which should be made? -- Sushi Leone 11:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
BORDERS
The ODER- Neisse border can not be called historic at all. The Piasten Dynasty controlled it only very short time like 30 to 50 years and then it was not a border in the sense of nowadays borders, because the regional dukes where much more powerful than the king of Poland.( read the Enlish history of this time) It was more a loose federation of Regions, in those days, with the king on the top. The most of the polish Kings spoke German and where neutral about their ethnical background. You can not compare the middle age with the 20 century. So this border is a fiction of the school atlases for history made by unhonest man.
Till 1200 Europe was nearly not inhabited, their where mostly woods and marches, especially in this areas. It where the Germans witch made out of the no-man’s-land agriculture that is the fact, and not only in Poland.
1945 the Polish had no historical rights on this lands. Not on Silesia witch was original a part of Bohemia. Not at Pomerania because its dukes joined the German empire voluntarily to be protected against the Polish aggression. Not at Prussia witch spoke originally a Lithuanian Dialect.
NO HISTORICAL JUSTIFICATION NOT ONE
Johann
Lysy has again asked me to comment on this discussion, as he did a couple months ago.
Again, I think the existing approaches are overly detailed and polemical. To my mind, what would make sense (to the reader, for whom we're supposedly doing this) would be an essentially chronological approach.
It's true that there wasn't just one expulsion, but the expulsions, or if you prefer the German "exodus" from central-eastern Europe, all were the result of one historical event: Germany's defeat in WWII.
The Oder-Neisse border between Germany and Poland had been decided upon (by the Soviets) long before Germany was defeated. This border had nothing to do with ethnographic considerations. The Soviet military victory on the Eastern Front made imposition of the border possible as an act of power politics by Stalin and the Soviet colossus, which occupied the entire region militarily. This act of Realpolitik was presented for public consumption as a justifiable retribution against Nazi Germany, as follows:
The expulsions of the Germans from Czechoslovakia (3.5 million) and other central-eastern European nations, including prewar Poland, were generally justified on the grounds that German minorities had engendered pan-German expansionism in previous years and aggression by Nazi Germany. As is usual in central-European history, the matter is a good deal more complex than this, but the details are not really germane to this story. The article or articles should be limited to what actually happen in the context of the historical framework, which should include mention in summary form of the precedents set by the Nazis in expelling Poles from the so-called Wartheland and beginning to replace them with Baltic Germans. (The Baltic transfers, BTW, were a result of the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact, which should be explained high in the "story" to prepare the reader for the "compensation" theme.)
Acts of revenge and retribution against the German population of the affected areas also should be mentioned, but not in a manner that attributes any peculiar degree of moral or cultural depravity, as these acts of revenge were set in motion by the horrible savagery of the Nazi-German occupation. Violence begets violence. What should be explained, however, is that in large measure this revenge fell upon ordinary human beings rather than, for the most part, upon those who have been labeled Hitler's "willing executioners." Due to wartime dislocations, the objects of this revenge included a disproportionate number of women, children and elderly people. This is factual. The narrative should stick to factual events rather than attempt to ascribe or condemn motivations beyond the obvious phenomenon of ethnically based revenge.
In an encyclopedia entry, the ideal is to let the reader decide for himself whether this or that occurrence was right or wrong, good or bad, justified or unjust, etc. The emotional problem posed by this topic — and the reason it arouses such strong nationalistic feelings — is its moral complexity and ambiguity. Nazi-German aggression and atrocities were wrong. Did that make the annexations, expulsions and acts of retribution right? A Kantian or Christian idealist may think not; those who view themselves as realists may say the idealists are out of touch with reality. (Said Stalin at Potsdam: "We cannot abstract ourselves from the results of war.") This discussion goes on forever. But none of that is relevant to this article, which should simply present a concise summary of what happened within the political/historical context, without trying to reach a final judgment on its character. Leave that to historians.
The difficulty, of course, is distilling the story into a reasonably concise narrative.
Sca 18:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but most interesting. And would deserve at least a wikipedia article of its own one day. But so far it's probably too controversial and difficult. -- Lysy talk 20:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate that Sca is considered to be biased both by "German" and "Polish" editors. You're my hero! :-) -- Lysy talk 07:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I second :-) Das ist sehr gut. Który jest wielki. Nonprof. Frinkus 08:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I third (can you say that? :) Its good to have a non-biased outside view. Thanks Sca -- Splette :) Talk 20:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I reviewed the text that was moved to the German exodus from Eastern Europe article.
I think the problem is that some topics should be discussed in this article, some in that article and some in both articles. Here is my first cut
6.1 Cold War assessments of the expulsions (here definitely, maybe in the Exodus article also)
6.2 Expelled Germans in postwar Germany (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.2.1 Federation of Expellees (both)
6.2.2 Centre Against Expulsions (both)
6.3 Polish-German relations (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.4 Czech-German relations (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.5 The German minority in Hungary (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.6 Russia (mostly in the Exodus article)
6.7 Re-examination of the expulsions in the 1990s (mostly here, mention in the Exodus article)
-- Richard 08:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
After re-reading parts of Isaac Deutscher's biography of Stalin, I have to correct one thing I said above. Poland's western border (the Oder-Neisse Line) had not been determined at the time of Teheran, in November '43. At Teheran, Stalin secured Western agreement only to eastern border, generally the "Curzon Line" — although Roosevelt apparently argued for inclusion of L'wów/L'vov/L/viv (Lemberg) in postwar PL. But at Teheran the Big Three already were discussing "compensation" for Poland through annexations of Germany territory.
Sca 14:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
What and why would we like to have it here ? The first passage about the Churchill speech seems to be related to territorial changes, not the expulsion (and still remains unreferenced).
The second part (Reece's speech) is relevant, but I'm not sure if we should not rather base the assessment on historic research, and not politicians.
Finally, Solzhenitsyn and Kopelev objecting during their military service is a little vague. Did they object to expulsion ? How exactly did they object ? How is it related to "cold war assessment" ?
-- Lysy talk 08:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with these sentences:
Where do they belong ? -- Lysy talk 09:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My problem was that they seemed to be more general ("1944-1948", "holocaust", "concentration camps") and therefore relevant to the exodus events in the wider sense not only the expulsion. So I suppose they should go to the "Exodus" article back. Am I right here ? -- Lysy talk 17:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I personally don't recall anything about Solzhenitsyn objecting "during his military service" to Red Army conduct in eastern Germany. I bvelieve he got in trouble for a letter to a friend criticizing Stalin.
However: Solzhenitsyn, who had been a Red Army captain in East Prussia, recorded in Volume One of The Gulag Archipelago that "all of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction." (P. 21 of U.S. paperback ed., 1973.) Sca 14:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Many re-examiners don't remember WWII ( Erika Steinbach, Peter Glotz). Many recent German books are written by such people, who present idealized image of Nazi Germany, where any town had a working camp. Erika Steinach lived near Piaśnica execution place, not far from Stutthof. Xx236 11:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
"who present idealized image of Nazi Germany" => Sorry, Xx236, but to allege that Peter Glotz idealized the image of Nazi Germany is simply not true and discredits a man who during all his lifetime as a politician, social scientist and journalist tried to mediate between Czechs and Germans! ( 194.9.5.10 13:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
Peter Glotz' father managed a Jewish business in Nazi Prague, so he preferred to run away after the war. Legally he was able to stay because his wife was Czech (I don't know if the law was respected). Glotz' mother wanted to join her husband, she wasn't exactly expelled, the same for Peter. His book about the expulsion doesn't exactly "mediate" according to Eva Hahn. Xx236 08:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not obvious. The statement should be removed. Xx236 12:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
See the title of the paragraph.
The government in exile wanted originally Upper Silesia (maybe till Opole), not Lower Silesia. Arciszewski declared he preferred Lwów and Wilno. The Western allies disn't care about any opinion of the Polish government since 1944 or even 1943. Western historians erroneously translate "Śląsk" as "Silesia". "Śląsk" meant Upper Silesia, even today there is Województwo Śląskie. Xx236 08:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
In late ’44 or early ’45, after the Soviet-sponsored (Communist) "Lublin Poles" had announced their demand for the Oder-Neisse frontier, the Polish government-in-exile, in London, said it wanted "neither Breslau nor Stettin." Tomasz Arciszewski, its prime minister, told Churchill that Poland had no desire to push her border so far west as to include 8 million to 10 million Germans.
However, when the "Lublin Poles" were invited to the Potsdam conference in July 1945, their president, Bolesław Beirut, argued for the Oder-Neisse border by saying the Poles would get less territory from Germany than they were losing to Russia. At his point, even Stanisław Mikołajczyk, who in 1943 became prime minister of the (London) Polish government-in-exile after Władysław Sikorski was killed in a suspicious plane crash – and who earlier had opposed the Oder-Neisse Line – now supported it with the argument that Silesia had been an arsenal of German militarism and that Polish control of the Oder would prevent German arms exports.
"The Poles ... gulping down immense chunks of German territory, had obviously become ... ardent puppets" of the Soviets, Churchill commented in his memoirs.
Sources:
Sca 18:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, all analogies break down somewhere because every historical situation is different, but the Mexican/U.S. situation is the closest parallel I could think of, even though it took place over a much shorter period of time than the German eastward expansion — which if you go back to when the Germans were west of the Elbe, not just the Oder, went on for something like 800 years.
But as an aside, the thought that the Mexicans are, demographically speaking, "reclaiming" the Southwest has crossed my mind — though again it's more complex than that.
Another problem with the analogy is that the West Slavs dwelling east of the Elbe back at the start of the second millenium weren't really Polish in the modern sense, but more like proto-Polish, as I understand it. (I'm told the Kashubes are a similar group.) As most of us know, a few remnants of West-Slavdom remain in Saxony to this day — the Sorbs (or Wends).
Sca 15:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Poles" were also proto-Polish. I'm not an expert, but Western Slavs weren't cetrainly divided linguistically about 1000. Czech Hussite preachers of sermons were understood in Poland (i.e. even after 1414). The same probably for Sorbs. The division was made only by the rulers. Xx236 08:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Lublin Poles" were nominet and controlled by Stalin. Osóbka-Morawski claimed later, that he opposed Stalin once, when he asked for a part of Białowieża Forest. Did any Lublin-Pole opposed Stalin regarding the Western border? Who and when? Did he survive? Xx236 08:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Please make sure that all facts in this highly controversial article have appropriate citations otherwise it fails "Nationalist:bias" wikipedia policy. For example "German civilian casualties are estimated to number in the millions during the whole process of evacuation" as obvious nonsense without any citation, fact or qualified academic history research should not be there. Tulkolahten 12:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
It's possible that two million died during the evacuation, Soviet-German fights AND expulsion. Naming "evacuation, Soviet-German fights AND expulsion" - expulsion - is German nationalistic propaganda.
Question to a native speaker - is "two millions" "in the millions"? Xx236 13:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
There is Estimates of number of deaths in connection with expulsion of Germans after WWII in this Wiki. It says that 1 300 000 German civilians died. It's not "in the millions". Should the discussion go to Estimates of number of deaths in connection with expulsion of Germans after WWII discussion? Xx236 13:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The point of view of many Poles is that the whole "expulsionist culture" growing recently is German revisonism. The war meant death, only the happy ones survived. It's hard to understand that the survivors complain, especially those living in Western Germany. Neither Erika Steinbach nor Peter Glotz would have succeded in Communist Poland, Czechoslovakia nor in GDR).
DOes the article include the tragedy of Germans expelled from France or Belgium? Why not? It's not only bias, it's racism. Xx236 15:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"three million German civilians lost their lives" - no comments. Xx236 15:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"It's not only bias, it's racism." Xx236, please calm down a little bit and return to a more unemotional way to discuss - thank you. ( 194.9.5.10 15:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC))
Thank you for confirming my opinion about Western stereotypes -cultural imperialism or orientalism. Eastern under-people do terrible things, the West is pure. Why Anni-Frid Lyngstad isn't an expelee, Erika Steinbach is one? The other method isto put me out of the discussion as a crazy nationalist. Your stereotypes are better than my knowledge. Xx236 12:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
also the "DTV Atlas zur Weltgeschichte" (Atlas of World History) in its edition 2006 cites number of 3 Mio. overall German civilian casualties ( 194.9.5.10 16:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)) "overall" doesn't mean "during the expulsions". Xx236 12:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I would say that this depends on the definition of expulsion. As for me, this notion comprises as well those who had flet before they could have been expelled and those who were not allowed to come back. By the way, please do not take it personnaly, but your comments are partly very aggressive and offending. Why don`t you try to discuss in a more unemotional way. ( 194.9.5.10 13:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC))
For those who are interested in this topic, I offer the following excerpt from an academic paper I wrote nearly 20 years ago, relying on sources available to me at the time:
Sca
16:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
All the sources are 39 years or more old, based on German accusation written by former Nazi intelectuals. Xx236 12:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
See above, you do exactly the same you criticize.
A number of former Nazis were involved in the Documentation..., some of them involed in designing Nazi expulsions in the III Reich. Is there any rule that writing about facts is wrong in the English Wiki?
Some German authors criticize the Documentation... as biased. It's legal to criticize the Documentation.... I don't criticize the crimes but the bias of some German authors, working during the Cold war.
The minister was Theodor Oberländer, who took part in Hitler's putsch of 1923. His student Theodor Schieder was the chief-editor, who during the war demanded Entjudung Restpolens. Werner Conze prented his antisemitic views even in 1953. More in [1]
Their authors were professional historians or journalists, and each book is a serious attempt to address an issue, based in part on demographic data. - do you mean Schieder? Xx236 13:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Article does not mention these casualties were caused by the conditions of expulsion under the red army. It should be mentioned.
Tulkolahten
08:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the above query. Let's put it this way. These people would not have died if they'd been allowed to remain in their own homes and land which was rightfully German. They died as a result of the jointly agreed Allied policy of ethnic cleansing. Whether it was 100,000 or 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 dead really makes no odds. It was an utterly disgraceful policy that caused untold suffering to millions of people and will forever more be an appalling stain on the Allied leaders concerned, namely, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin. Andrew 18th November 2006
Just one other thing to add. Is anyone aware that Winston Chrchill stood up in the House of Commons on December 15th 1943 and said in a speech, ...the total expulsion of Germans from the Eastern territories is what is proposed. It was an official policy of the Allies to kick out all Germans from their own lands in the East. That policy cost more than a million lives. You can discuss this until the cows come home. Page after page after page. Whatever anyone thinks, this policy was a disgrace. No matter what, there was no excuse for it. All those men, all those women and all those children died as a result of Allied policy and it was wrong. In a thousand years of discussion it will still be wrong. Nothing that Hitler or anyone under him did can ever excuse Allied ethnic cleansing on that scale and death on that scale and that's that!! Andrew. 19 November 2006
Any day brings disgraceful acceptance of starvation and genocide. Churchill had much more reasons to hate the Germans when Auschwitz KZ was working than the contemporary politicians have reasons to do business as usuall.
Churchill wasn't able to fully preview in 1943 the situation in Eastern Europe under the Soviets in 1945. Quite many people aren't able to accept the truth till today - see the USSR article. Xx236 13:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Citizens of the SU (not only Russians) colonized deserted areas in the West, replaced Germans and Poles. It was kind of "Drang nach Westen". Does a Western reader understand this from the article? Xx236 15:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, as a german-speaking person I am able to understand the term "Drang nach Westen". But for a non-german-speaking person this term needs an explication, I presume. Perhaps the historical tendencies of polish or russian "Drang nach Westen" should be presented and explained in a special article. (user, Nov. 16th, 2006)
As far as I know Stalin wasn't under Polish influence, when he designed the post-war Europe. Xx236 13:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this Wikipedia-forum helps to inform and to understand. But for the difficult and controversal topic of expulsions we need an independent science-center of international documentation and discussion. It is necessary, because it gives a face to those human beings who lost their lives and who suffered a lot. It is also necessary, to help us understanding the human character and the history and avoiding problems in today's international conflicts. (User, Nov. 16th, 2006)
I prefer to study mass executions first. The evacuation of prisoners from e.g. Auschwitz, too. Xx236 13:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There are missing France, Belgium, Nederland, Italy. Tulkolahten 11:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Norway. Xx236 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's explore this. I say the following based on personal speculation and not on the basis of knowledge so feel free to correct me (not that you needed my permission to do so).
I think the difference between "expulsion" in Eastern Europe and "expulsion" in Western Europe is the difference both in scale and in nature of the expulsions.
I don't think anyone is claiming that expulsions on the order of millions of people occurred in Western Europe. I do believe that small groups of Germans may have felt it desirable to leave but it is my sense that these were more about societal pressures rather than due to an official government policy. I suspect that the governments involved did nothing to protect German minorities within their borders and may have encouraged the societal pressures by turning a blind eye towards any actions taken to pressure German minorities to leave. (cf. the case of Anni-Frid Lyngstad's mother)
This is partly because of the difference between the Western governments and the Stalinist regimes and also because there were no major border changes in the West.. However, a major reason is that there were not large communities of Volksdeutsche in Western Europe.
I haven't hearad of any major expulsions from Western Europe. The one area that I know of in Western Europe that had a significant ethnic German minority is Alsace-Lorraine. The following text is from that article:
If you wish expulsions in the Western European countries mentioned above to be included in this article, then please document the scope and nature of those expulsions.
Note that I am not saying that there is no place in Wikipedia to document the treatment of German minorities in Western Europe after World War II. What I am saying is that the nature and scope of the two situations are so radically different that it is inappropriate to deal with them in the same article.
If there is sufficient material to document prejudice, persecution and expulsion of Germans from Western Europe after World War II, then I would propose that a separate article be created with links between the new article and this one.
-- Richard 17:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, here's something about Operation Black Tulip, which would need to be linked with a short text. Anonytroll 10:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 12:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Are there scientific publications or internet-articles about this topic? (User 82.207.181.26, Nov. 16th, 2006)
"user" said: The difference is: the concept of racial hygiene is intending a homogeneous population regarding the criterium "race" (whatever "race" might be), the concept of ethnically homogeneous states is intending a homogeneous population regarding the criterium "ethnicity".
you were right in saying "whatever race might be", many people use race and ethnicity interchangeably, especially here on Wikipedia I have noticed. since saying "race" can often make you look racist in the current times, they have replaced it with the word ethnic. when someone says "ethnic _______" I think of the general characterization of that nationality/race/ethnicity, so for instance when someone says "ethnic Nigerian" I think of a black man, not someone resembling Saint Nicholas. these are highly complicated terms as one persons ideas about race/ethnicity are totally different than anothers. for instance, one person can see all Caucasians as one ethnic group/race, and another person can see every nationality or distinct culture within Caucasians as a different race or ethnic group. this is seen in this article well, as the term "ethnic German" is used to describe basically everyone that was expelled. but what is ethnic German? is a mennonite an ethnic German? there blood line is still 100% German since they emigrated to the new world hundreds of years ago, so what makes one German. the term is used on wikipedia to avoid using the word race and is used by many nationalists to describe us and them
-- Jadger 21:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Re the comment above that begins, "A number of former Nazis were involved in the Documentation," apparently from User Xx236 (two times three is six?) — I have an open mind regarding the sources for my paper, which as I've said is almost 20 years old and was written using the few sources that were available to me at the (pre-Internet) time. I am not a professional historian and do not claim to be presenting the last word on this complex topic.
I certainly would never endorse the Nazis' program of "ethnic hygiene," either in Germany or in the areas they conquered. I am no fan of ethnic cleansing no matter who does it. (BTW, had I been born in Germany 20 years before I was born in the U.S., it's quite likely I would have been "euthenized" due to childhood physical/medical problems.)
That said, to dismiss the events by labeling my sources as "Nazi" or to say that they have been criticized (I'm all for critical evaluation of everything) would be another example of what I objected to before: Discounting information by maligning its sources. As I've said repeatedly, the history of the events themselves should be reported without descending into ethnically or politically motivated vituperation.
I will read and evaluate the "Freitag" article linked to above. Thank you. Sca 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
"that 1.5 million to 2 million of them lost their lives in the process". No, they didn't. Your numbers include many processes, eg. US bombs, SU navy, Nazi terror. Even the Center against Expulsions doesn't support your numbers.
Ten of thousands of Slavic women were raped by Soviet soldiers, the majority of them never registered their accounts because of highly conservative society and Soviet rules.
The other side of the "ethnically based expropriation and expulsion" was that Germans were allowed to emigrate to the West and thousands of Slavs and Balts were deported to Siberia. Millions lost everything during collectivization and nationalization. More than one million of Poles expelled (or running away) from the SU travelled in comparable conditions as the German fugitives, in cattle cars, terrorized by criminals and police.
In 1944 all Warsaw people were expelled, many of them into Nazi camps, the city destroied. Is there one book in English~/German describing the expulsion?
"see nothing in the cited article that disproves or even seriously questions the essential veracity of the eyewitness accounts collected in the Documentation. "
We are discussing the numbers and opinions, not individual tragedies. However any source should be proessionally evaluated.
BTW - recently a group of liberal Germans wanted to publish a number of female accounts of 1945. They had to correct them because of the racist anti-Slavic language of the accounts. The Nazi rules influenced both Germans and Slavs. Their master/slave relationship inverted in January 1945 but the ideas remined. Xx236 12:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an article Theodor Schieder in German Wiki. Xx236 15:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
A minority destroied a democratic state, is such lesson alleged? The conclusion was probably wrong but the problem existed. I believe that the word alleged has been added to attack Czechs rather than to explain anything. Xx236 13:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The mainstream of German historiography and the radical BdV wing select certain expulsions (Germans expelled by states in the East) forgetting others - evacuation of Jews and other prizoners called Death marches (Holocaust)("Schindler's list" is about this process), expulsions from Western countries and the Soviet Union, executions of deserters. It's a kind of dehumanization under the banner of human rights. Only some leftist and Jewish authors oppose such division.
Poland cooperates with German historians publishing documents of the expulsion. I don't know about such cooperation with Kaliningrad historians.
A Wrocław theater presents a documentary play by Jan Klata. 5 German and 5 Polish old refugees speak about their expulsions in 1945.
An average Pole knows history of WWII much better than an average German. I believe that Germans should learn about their crimes in the East during WWII if they learn about their tragedies, but they don't. An explanation - we have 20 non-German children in many German classrooms. How to teach them German history? Xx236 14:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I doubt that Germany do need any coaching with regard to the coming to terms with its past. ( 194.9.5.10 09:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Jedger, you seem to ignore what happened to Polish academicians during WWII. Thousands of them were murdered by the cultural Germans. Xx236 08:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
well than correct me and name a number of outstanding Polish Universities that outclass German ones, perhaps look [2] or perhaps [3] the second is from the EU, you can hardly argue with that.
but this has gone off-topic, my point was that you can't make claims about such a specific topic without quizzing every German and every polish student on WWII questions, which would bring up a dilemma, what are the questions? Western Europe or the Eastern Front?
-- Jadger 00:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Jadger, do you understand what I'm writing about? Germans murdered almosty all Jewish academicians in Poland and many gentiles, too. You seem to be happy with it. Xx236 19:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Speaking German is common in Poland, Germans don't learn Polish. Poles watch tens of German TV channels, Germans don't watch the Polish ones, partially because of the technical and financial superiory of Germany. Poles learn about German history and culture at school, Germans rather don't learn about Polish history and culture at school. There are researches confirming my point of view. Which research says, that Germans know about Poland, Jadger sir?
German outstanding universities teach eventually about Russia, not about small Eastern nations. Please, learn before you teach.
Xx236 08:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
lol, your whole comment is a general stereotyping of all Germans.
"Poles watch tens of German TV channels, Germans don't watch the Polish ones, partially because of the technical and financial superiory of Germany." Point being? I live in Canada and most the TV we watch is American, what is your point? TV for the most part doesn't educate, we are talking about the education systems in the two countries (which is off-topic), not about the latest episode of [desperate housewives].
"There are researches confirming my point of view. Which research says, that Germans know about Poland, Jadger sir? " please cite some of these "researches" Xx, so that one can atleast read them and be enlightened.
we were not talking about whether or not they teach about German research on Poland, but the differing education systems in the two
and BTW, German is a dominant world language, being the language of Engineering and other subjects, not the least of which is cultural (Goethe's writings for example). German is 2nd most common language books are published in, so learning German may be needed for continuing education. Polish on the other hand is not nearly as prevalent. Most English speakers don't learn Polish, so are you saying that all people who don't speak Polish are ignorant of matters concerning Poles? Or is it just all Germans who don't speak Polish who are ignorant?
-- Jadger 22:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Jadger, I would call you way of discussion hostile. Would you please consider that about 50% of my family was persecuted during WWII, by Germans and their Soviet allies, many of them died. How many members of your family were murdered by Poles to explain your attitude?
Xx236 19:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This is like trying to discuss religion with fundamentalists: It's futile. However, let me state for the record that I will never agree with anyone who contends that the Germans, in general, don't know the history of the Nazi occupations, expulsions, genocides, Holocaust, etc., etc. It's been done and done and done.
I'm very sorry to have to say this, but: These circular, futile discussions tend to reinforce an impression I had before but was trying to get beyond: That some Poles simply don't want the world to know about what was done to the Germans in 1945-50 — and in some cases, about the ethnographic history of the former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line.
I'm not trying to start another argument or offend anyone. I'm just stating what my impression — as an American who's taken a deep interest in the whole topic over a period of decades — has been.
Just once on Wiki, I'd like to hear a Polish person say: We are sorry, too, for what was done to the Germans. I heard a Polish person say something like that once when I lived in Warsaw. It's interesting to note that her family had been compelled to move from what's now Lithuania to Pomerania; perhaps that gave her some insight into what the other side experienced. At this point, as far as Wiki is concerned, I'm just tired of the whole "discussion," if it can be called that.
Sca 22:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
ditto, my thoughts exactly
-- Jadger 00:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Sca, comparing me with a fundamentalist just because I resist against (anchorless and unfounded) allegations like WWII is not subject to German history lessons or German Wiki is biased with regard to what happened in Poland under German occupation, appears quite unreflected and, hence, unfair to me. (
194.9.5.10
15:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Slucham = you do not understand what I talk about? No problem: I referred to your statement "This is like trying to discuss religion with fundamentalists" => ahora comprendes la conexiòn? te saludo ( 194.9.5.10 14:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)) ps: nonsence is of course nonsense...
As you, as you wrote, do actually not care at all what I tried to say I guess I do not have to waste my time by giving further explanation.
Ps: Like you do not speak Spanish I do not speak Polish and my response in Spanish was therefore a (funny) reply to your Polish "Slucham?" (it took me some time before I found out that it is Polish and what it means). Thus, suprisingly, I am not Polish (although I speak Spanish). Last but not least, please excuse my poor English which definitively requires some improvement (like your German). ( 194.9.5.10 09:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
If you claim that I "don't want the world to know what was done to the Germans in 1945-50 — and in some cases, about the ethnographic history of the former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line" - prove it. How do I prevent the knowledge to be dpread? Do I censor, imprison the authors?
I claim that the world, especially Germany, doesn't want to know about German crimes against non-Jewish Poles. It's obvious that German history books , including the school textbooks, concentrate on German history, not the history of crimes against ethnic Poles. Check the German WIki, you will find hundreds biased articles. Now the German point of view comes to the English Wiki, because of you cultural stereotypes.
My position is that Germany (frequently former Nazi politicians and academicians) created the idea of "expulsion" which contains German crimes and errors in 1944, war, Soviet crimes (including the area of the future GDR, where no expulsion took place) AND expulsion. The role of the Soviet Union is being minimalized, the one of Poland and Czechoslovakia overestimated. Xx236 08:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"Check the German WIki, you will find hundreds biased articles." ok, Xx236, now I really fed up with your unfounded allegations. Please quote at least five of the hundreds of biased articles in order to prove what you said. Not to mention that you presumably do not even speak German, you will not be able to quote just five. So, come on, I am looking forward to receive the list! But otherwise: please stop this nonsence! ( 194.9.5.12 09:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
194.9.5.12
Would you please concentrate on the subject rather than on my personality? I do speak German enough to understand 99% of the German Wiki texts about Poland. This forum isn't the right place to discuss the German Wiki, I have answered you in German nationalistic bias in German Wikipedia. Would you please read German Wikipedia before you write nonsence? Xx236 11:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Memorandum - the situation of the Slavistic in Germany. Xx236 11:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
What? You wrote: German Wiki is full of bias. And when I ask you to please quote at least five of these hundreds and hundreds of biased articles you tell me that this is not the place to discuss German Wiki?! So why do you talk about in the first place? Sorry, but this level of discussing is simply to low for me. Either you prove your statements or please refrain from alleging - sorry - such nonsence. By the way, the quoted article is not a Wiki article. ( 194.9.5.10 11:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
Talk:German Wikipedia contains my answer. It is in Wikipedia.
Would you please be more polite, sir. Xx236 12:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not consider my statements to be unpolied. However, in case you felt offended by it I hereby beg your pardon. Your answer does merely repeat what you have alleged here but no prove is given whatsoever. Although one has actually not to prove to be not guilty, please refer (for example) to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polen#Zweiter_Weltkrieg_1939-1945 and tell me which information is missing there making the article biased. ( 194.9.5.10 13:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
At first, sorry. I know this isn't a discussion forum and I managed to just read and not comment anything so far. But at this point I can't help myself. Dear Xx236, I am shocked about your (unfounded) percecption of Germany. I don't know how you imagine history is being taught in school here. Erika Steinbach herself teaching us the "Bund der Vertriebenen"-version about WWII? Rather not. Believe me WWII, the Holocaust and the other shamful chapters of German history are being teached extensively and its not a chapter of our history we are particulary proud about. But at some point I feel like I want to stop apologise about what happened back then and just get the facts straight. That doesn't make me a nationalistic POV-pusher. This is wikipedia, a place for facts... To come back to the German history lessons: XX236, I am sorry, that in school we learn about the "crimes against ethnic Poles" not before, but only after the Holocaust. By the way I have learned almost nothing about the expulsions in school at all! I can only speak for that former East-German school I went to and don't know if it was taught in other schools or the West. But everything I know about the topic, is what I read later on. Now talking about biased articles: How come there is no link to this article in the Polish Wikipedia? Even the Japanese Wikipedia has it. I am sure there must be some article covering expulsions in the Polish wikipedia, no? After all its the 4th biggest Wikipedia articlewise and subjects about Polish history are especially well covered. -- Splette :) How's my driving? 15:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. unnamed editor you might consider getting an account if you edit regularly
Erika Steinbach wants to teach German children and she started in Berlin, where many schools visited the Erzwungene Wege.
I don't think that the article deserves to be linked, because it is biased. BTW War crimes of the Wehrmacht has false link to German Wiki and doesn't have one to Polish Wiki. Bombing of Wieluń doesn't have any link, the same Bombing of Frampol.
The 4th place of the Polish Wiki is the result of automatic generation of thousands of articles about nothing. You may check the lenghth of the articles, the number of pictures. Xx236 16:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I see from the "in other languages" box that there are versions of this article on the German (of course), Hungarian and Romanian Wiki sites, but apparently no Russian, Polish or Czech versions. How can this be?
PS: Can someone (an administrator, perhaps) please archive this page? It's getting overlong. Thanks. Sca 18:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd think they are simply not linked. The German Wikipedia link for example is to an article about expulsions in general (with some specific ones, though). I'd guess it is the same for these language Wikis. Anonytroll 18:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Poland's western borders have been determined by the allies during the Potsdam Conference in summer 1945 by the term Oder-Neisse line. This term means that the rivers of Oder and Neisse should mark the future western borders of Polish administration. But in July 1945 - regardless of the Potsdam Conference - the Soviet Union handed over territories in the west of the Oder-Neisse line (including the important city and port of Stettin) to Poland. After this transfer to Poland organised expulsions of Germans began also in these territories in the west of the Oder-Neisse line. (user, 1 December 2006)
The text about Stettin should be corrected.
BTW- which geographical names should be used - historical or current? The states are named using current names, e.g. Czech Republic and cities have historical names - Stettin. Strange. Xx236 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Was the fate of Kashubians specific in any way? Upper Silesians had exactly the same problems living between Germans and Poles and their number was bigger. Xx236 16:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The fate of the Masurians also should be included. Sca 18:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Czechoslovakia was quite independent 1945-1948. Xx236 12:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung of November 14, the total number of victims of the expulsion was estimated being 473 000 (1964) or 400 000 (1974). Do you really know the subject better than the author - Ingo Haar? Xx236 15:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The Spiegel is a left wing German Newspaper founded by the britisch occupation forces. Since ever it tries to reshape the II WW history, non of the German Newspapers are realy trustworthy in such historical artikels because they want to downplay german victims in numbers. So the most historical resurge, witch you can trust is done by non Germans. Dont forget Germany was since the II WW never a free country, from occupation directly to NATO. The ruling class in Germany is seeable controlled by other than national Interests. Their is no way for only 400.000 victims. The German minority in Yugoslawia has documented allone 180.000 victims by name. This 400.000 is a political number like the 30.000 killed in Dresden it was initiated may be by western secret services to dawnplay their role in the second world war. Johann
Not The Federation of Expellees but Erika Steinbach. The late Peter Glotz opposed the ZgV data and was its president at the same time. Xx236 08:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm old enough to rememeber people like Sartre, Joliot-Curie, Ezra Pound being on someone's Webpage. Historical research isn't based on votes and intelectuals, but rather on critics of sources. Xx236 14:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Here comes a German opinion about other sources: http://www.freitag.de/2005/18/05180601.php Xx236 13:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In another words - you claim there is no connection beteen the Documentation... and the vision of history propagated by the FoE. Any sources? Xx236 13:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Where is the article you are refering to? Do they talk about their sources? Is there a serious proof for the validity of this numbers? -- Sushi Leone 20:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2+ million are general German looses in the East during and after WWII, including German crimes. 400 000 - 500 000 are German looses during the post-war expulsion from Poland and SU. Xx236 10:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, for posting this article. It is very interesting indeed! -- Sushi Leone 14:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Since most of the victims who died at the hands of the Danes in 1945 were expellee’s, (as stated in the Spiegel article), I think the subject of Danish treatment of the refugees should be inserted somewhere in the article. Der Spiegel article, Deutsche Welle article -- Stor stark7 Talk 23:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
A number of Germans were expelled from Alsace. A number of Kehl inhabitants were forced to leave, when the city was French (1945-1949). Xx236 11:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Poland again as the wildest nation of the East. Xx236 16:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
German historian Claudia Kraft describes the whole spectrum of Polish people attitudes toward Germans in
„reichte vom Ruf nach Vergeltungsmaßnahmen, die sich an nationalsozialistischen Praktiken orientierten sollten, über Gefühle der Gleichgültigkeit und Verachtung für ein kollektiv als schuldig eingestuftes Volk bis zu Beweisen von Verständnis und Mitgefühl für das Schicksal der von Verlust der Heimat betroffenen“ My source is part of the book Das polnische Breslau als europäische Metropole - Erinnerung und Geschichtspolitik aus dem Blickwinkel der Oral History: ttp://oral-history.euv-ffo.de/breslau/index.html Xx236 12:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
perhaps a translation is in order so that we may understand what it says.
-- Jadger 12:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The conflicts existed on low level, between individuals. No Polish-communist structure wanted and/or was able to oppose the Soviet Army. Soviet leadership, probably Stalin himself, defined the status of Sttetin/Szczecin. This article describes the fate of millions, why does it discuss such local matter? Xx236 13:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The first line says it's about The flight and expulsion of Germans after World War II. Why is the name of the article Expulsion of Germans after World War II? Xx236 14:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Also see Evacuation of East Prussia. Logically, we should have an article titled Evacuation of Germans from Eastern Europe which would include the information in Evacuation of East Prussia.
Now we have a problem: "Estimates vary by source, but it is generally accepted that between one and three million German civilians lost their lives" Your numbers include flight and expulsion. It's absurd to claim that 3 millions died during the expulsion. Is it allowed to include absurd data here? Xx236 11:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
No Jadger, I expect basic precision. If the article the Sun is about the Sun, not about the Moon, even if sometimes they look similar, the same the Expulsion of Germans after World War II is the Expulsion of Germans after World War II. If you want to rewrite the article to the Flight and expulsion - change the title and modify the text. Xx236 11:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that Jadger wants put every possible garbage on Polish back including Soviet and Nazi activities results. This is why he do not want recognize flee and expelled. He just got this inclination. He says himself he is biased. As such individuals he should be considered a trouble for Wiki. We need objective people. I appealed on discussion of "Recovered territories" to discuss the Jadger activity and bias and possibly remove the trouble. A-- 131.104.218.46 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:
Avoid shouting: It undermines a reasoned argument with the appearance of force through Italic text, Bolded text, and especially CAPITAL LETTERS, which are considered SHOUTING, and RANTING!!!!! Italics, however, can be usefully employed for a key word, to distinguish quoted text from new text and, of course, book titles etc. Xx236 15:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand the semantics involved in the English language - I understand this statement as a personal attack. You want to humilate me in an open forum, because I'm not a native speaker, rather than present your arguments. You make fun of my statements, but it was the German government who was responsible for the too late evacuation of German civilians, for the death marches, for defending cities like Breslau. Soviet army cruelties in 1945 didn't belong to Expulsion, the soldiers were allowed to have fun, even the BdV doesn't claim that there existed a Soviet order to expell the Germans using terror and I don't know any such order. The Soviets deported to Siberia not only Germans but Western Ukrainians and Poles. Such crimes aren't called Expulsions in any language, except German one. The Red Army murdered East and West of the Oder-Neisse line, but Germans from the SBZ weren't expelled, so why to call the crimes expulsion?
The Polish Army was controlled by Soviet leadership, commanded by mostly Soviet officers (the Polish ones in POW camps, killed in Katyn or fighting in the West), surveilled by Smersh and its Polish subdivision Główny Zarząd Informacji Wojska Polskiego. Xx236 15:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Soviet soldiers were allowed to rape, kill, burn whole towns, like in many European wars till the 17, maybe 18, century. It was frequently the only advantage they had before they died or became disabled. Only survivors were able to bring home watches, sometimes bicycles.
German soldiers in Poland robbed food and art objects, sometimes raped. Soviet-type cruelties were allowed during the Warsaw Uprising, non-German units and German criminalists committed the crimes, but German commanders were coresponsible.
Maybe you should present your ideas about the Holocaust on the Holocaust talk page? Xx236 10:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I haven't committed any mistake, so don't call your statements correections. Xx236 11:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
those are not my ideas, that is yours, I was just extrapolating it as a universal law, what is good for the goose is good for the gander after all. why should we exclude something from this article because it does not fall explicitly under the title, but include it in others? for the Holocaust we would have to make many articles, one for each way that a victim died, if your reasoning where to be made into a wikipedia guideline.
Soviet soldiers were allowed to rape, kill, burn whole towns, like in many European wars till the 17, maybe 18, century. It was frequently the only advantage they had before they died or became disabled. Only survivors were able to bring home watches, sometimes bicycles.
German soldiers in Poland robbed food and art objects, sometimes raped. Soviet-type cruelties were allowed during the Warsaw Uprising, non-German units and German criminalists [sic] committed the crimes, but German commanders were coresponsible. ya, point being? you are going back to the 17th and 18th century to justify the Soviet actions? come on! that is pre-laws of war, pre-Geneva convention, pre-modern even. I am assuming you were trying to justify Soviet actions, otherwise I don't get your point, what are you trying to prove? that war crimes were committed in Poland? yes, that is well proven, you have beaten that into wikipedia like Joe Louis did to Max Schmeling (the rematch, not the first). I am not going to do what you are expecting me to do and point out the fact that you are using war crimes committed by others as an excuse on a article discussion page about Polish warcrimes.
I haven't committed any mistake, so don't call your statements correections. See, this is exactly what is wrong, you think that nothing you have written has ever been gramatically incorrect, so when someone edits after you, you think it is a travesty and that they are dead wrong. Please be open to what other users contribute, and be open to what others change to your latest article version. Wikipedia is a team project, assuming when someone edits after you that they are destroying your hard work is counter-productive. please, be open to change, change is good, especially when it's in your pocket.
Also, you said German commanders were co-responsible, why do you think you needed to state that? the military is the same as any workplace with a hierarchy, the jobload goes down the chain of command, and the responsibility goes up it.
-- Jadger 12:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The Center against Expuslions claims that Poland and Czechoslovakia are responsible for Soviet crimes. They look quite happy, you overestimate my power. Xx236 14:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
These edits completely miss the point of the "wild expulsions". The desperate expulsions had the aim of creating conditions from which the Polish side could benefit as much as possible at the Potsdam agreement (no Germans in an area, no possibility of a German state there) because they thought the issue of borders was still in question, not because they wanted to follow the future agreement beforehand. [6] This also validates the sentence you wanted to adorn with a {{fact}}-tag, because if it had been clear to the Polish side that they were to keep the territories for annexation anyway, they wouldn't have worried about the borders in the first place and the wild expulsion wouldn't've occured.
Apart from that, the English could be improved and is there a good reason for replacing "expel" with "move out" and deleting the quotation?
As for the sentence "Acording to the terms agreed to at the Potsdam conference, the Soviet Union transferred territories to the west of the Oder-Neisse Line to Poland in July 1945," I don't get it. How is it possible for Soviet Union to act in accordance with the Potsdam agreement or Conference or whatever, when it hasn't even be reached or held? But the sentence you replaced isn't so much better. How can the Soviet Union ignore the future terms of an agreement? Maybe something like "Instead of waiting for the Potsdam Conference" would be better, or what do you think?
I've reverted the edits and would like you to discuss further changes of that nature before making them. Your message on Richard's talk page belonged here but was a good start. Sciurinæ 21:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
What says the term "Oder-Neisse line"? Doesn't it mean that the rivers Oder and Neisse are giving the line of future borders? My POV: the fact that land in the west of Oder and Neisse has been given to Poland is not acording to the Potsdam Conference negotiations and results. This shows us that negotiations and agreements with western allies have not been respected by USSR and Poland. USSR and Poland were interested in creating hard facts outside international negotiations. And they succeeded: no western ally wanted to oppose (user 82.207.181.26, Dec. 21st 2006).
This is a very interesting analysis of the whole expulsions/vertriebene phenomenon. I would like to capture some of the key ideas and insert them into the article although I suspect that doing so may give rise to some significant controversy. -- Richard 07:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what is meant by the word "wild" in the subheading "Wild expulsions May - July 1945". My best guess is that "wild" is intended to mean "spontaneous and uncoordinated by civil authorities". If this is so, we need to work on a better phrasing as "wild" is not the best way choice of words in English to convey this meaning. -- Richard 08:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Xx236 15:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"Die wilde Verteibung" means the expulsion before the Potsdam conference. Xx236 13:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about any umbrella terms in the Wikipedia. Words mean what they mean in standard English language dictionaries. I have a long experience of using Communist double-speak, in which freadom meant slavery, democracy meant dictatorship, so I'm against any umbrellas. The German state (against many German historians) continues the Vertreibung ideology. The English Wikipedia isn't financed and/or controlled by the German government. One means here one, flight means flight, expulsion means expulsion. If I'm wrong, I won't participate in a German propaganda project.
Germany and Russia used to write the history of Central Europe during the last 250 years, they don't any more. I hope so. Xx236 10:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
There is Evacuation of East Prussia, but neither Evacuation of West Prussia nor Evacuation of Silesia. Xx236 11:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't like your umbrella term. Xx236 11:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The title exists already. You are the only person against it. We should inform about the Expulsion of Germans after World War II here. If you want to write an article about the Evacuation of Germans during WWII (Flucht in German) , do it - but not here. There is a number of articles about Germans in 1945, repeating some data but omitting another ones. There is a lot of work to do. Xx236 16:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a title and there should be the text connected to the title. If you want an umbrella, produce it elsewhere. An article about after World War II actions cannot concentrate on WWII history. Xx236 13:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Silesian source [7] quotes Stalin in Potsdam: German population went after the Wehrmacht so it was necessery that a local administration existed in our army rear. ... So we allowed the Poles there.
I'll check if I have a Soviet estimate of the number of Germans there. Xx236 14:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If you are right, it means that someone (it's simple tio check who) manipulates the article. There is clear difference between the war and the post-war period, there is a clear difference between Flucht and Vertreibung. There are many German texts describing the history of German propaganda (see below). It's not a Polish-German discussion, but German liberals against German nationalists one. I believe that English after means after, not during. Xx236 14:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need less heat and more light in this discussion. I agree with Jadger that this article talks about both evacuation and expulsion although, as Xx236 points out, the emphasis is clearly on the expulsions. At first, the question seems to be whether we should change the title or change the content. This seems to be how Jadger is framing it.
However, I think the problem is not easily solved this way. There is a discussion earlier on this Talk page between Lysy and myself about "Merge with Exodus of Germans from Eastern Europe". We also talked about a "master plan" for articles related to the "History of Germans in Eastern Europe". Please read these two discussions earlier on this Talk Page and weigh in with an opinion.
Some quick comments: 1) I agree that there seems to be a gap in that we have Evacuation of East Prussia but no other evacuation articles. Someone who is knowledgeable about the evacuations should create additional articles or change the article title to Evacuation of Germans from Eastern Europe at the end of World War II
2) Even if we ultimately change the title of this article, we will want to keep an "Expulsions..." title that redirects to the new title since that is clearly the way many people think about this topic.
-- Richard 11:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The history of the Documents on the Expulsion ... should be mentioned. Xx236 09:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
[8], [9] Xx236 10:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Xx236 09:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I feel your Canada comment is directed at me (hence why Richard is lost). Unlike you Xx, I do not feel the need to pretend my nation has never done anything wrong. in fact, I admit that my nation has done wrong, we have had our own expulsion of the Acadians, but I do not go around denying it and trying to reword it to not sound so bad.
-- Jadger 04:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles generally don't judge past events using contemporary law. Generalplan Ost doesn't discuss legal problems of German expulsions at all, neither using the 1944 nor contemporary. Why does this article contain the statement "deportations could be considered"?
If there is a crime, there is also a criminal. According to many German sources the criminal is the Polish nation (sometimes also the Czech one). I don't pretend anything but I write about the people and nations who designed Europe 1945 and now preach about moralty and law.
Jadger, stop your ad personam comments. I have asked you many times.
Xx236 13:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
"The title wild expulsions comes from German wilde Vertreibung, and describes the manner in which the expulsions were undertaken by the Polish authorities, especially the military"
Xx236 14:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The article pretends that the crimes against Germans happened only outside of post-war Germany. However the same crimes took place in Germany, especially in the SBZ, later GDR - rapes, individual and state robberies, deportations to Siberian camps. German prizoners were transferred from Soviet camps in SBZ to Soviet camps in Poland. The facts are ignored or underestimated, because they don't pass to the nationalistic model. Xx236 14:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are absolutely right! But what do you mean with "nationalistic model"? What kind of "nationalistic model" is that and who is constructing it? What do you mean with "pretend"? Who is "pretending" / distracting here in wikipedia and what should be the motivation of the contributor? The most important thing: Should this article be about "crimes against german civilians" or the "postwar situation of poland" - or is it in the first place about the expulsion of germans after WW II? -- Sushi Leone 01:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Many cruelties happened East and West of the Oder-Neisse Line. All numbers of victims are added and included into the Expulsion of Germans after World War II. But Germans in the SBZ were persecuted, not expelled. Germans transferred to Siberia weren't expelled. So the term expulsion isn't precise. It's a literal translation of the German Vertreibung der Deutschen.
Xx236
14:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
How weren't those Germans sent to Siberia expelled? they don't have to be sent to Germany to be expelled, or are you telling me that they all wanted to go on working vacation in Siberia? So by that reasoning, Poles were not expelled to the General Government after the invasion, but just "transferred" or decided to go on a permanent holiday there? My travel agent has never suggested going to Siberia for vacation, maybe I ought to ask her why not?
-- Jadger 03:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Polish-German marriages were forbidden in nazi Germany. After the war they happened both in Poland and in Western Germany (Maczków). Mixed marriages are very rare in ethnic cleansing areas. Eg. Ukrainian nationalists murdered frequently Polish-Ukrainian families during the expulsion of Poles.
The numbers of Polish-German marriages would describe the intensity of the hatred better than biased contributors. Xx236 14:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Richard, I especially appreciate this edit of yours. I'm however a bit confused with this sentence "Some of these deaths were the result of direct, intentional actions of violent militias". Are we aware of any ? I'll remove part of this sentence from the article until we can explain this. -- Lysy talk 06:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
ya sure Lysy, Polish Home Army, Armia Ludowa, Leśni ludzie, etc.etc. the list could go on and on(that is, of violent militias like u said).
-- Jadger 07:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, would you please compare your stories with this Wikipedia? If you know better - correct the errors. If you don't know, don't spread errors.
So neither of the two existed after the war.
Anticommunist guerilla existed in Polish ethnic regions. I don't know about any Polish guerilla in former German lands, controlled frequently by the Red Army. Where did it exist?
Let's take the crime in Nieszawa. Als Täter war die Militz, die durch einen Parteigenossen der PPR Partei Mateusz Pawlak dazu angetrieben worden war. [10] - militia organized by Communist party leader Mateusz Pawlak.
Militias acted alswo in Czechoslovakia and France, where they perecuted French women. Why does this discussion concentrate on Poland? Xx236
Yes, the Home army was officially disbanded in January 1945, but we all know elements still acted after that, I am focusing on the fact that this article doesn't only deal with those that happened after the official end of the war, the war was over in East Prussia before it was in Berlin. Claiming every crime before 8 May should not be included because of some date given by politicians is ludicrous. You are free to add the information about the other militias as long as it pertains to this article, perhaps although collaborationists werent German, it could be added as a side note, that is up to you. Xx, you just proved that violent militias organized by commies existed and persecuted Germans, so I guess the sentence in question shouldn't be removed.
-- Jadger 19:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you misunderstood me. If there were any "direct, intentional actions of violent militias", they were incidental. They certainly are worth being mentioned, but not as if they accounted to deathtoll of thousands. Do you know otherwise ? -- Lysy talk 22:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course, but with due weight. Do not attribute millions of victims to organized deathsquads. I'm sure horrific things happened and each individual case deserves respect. But the lead of the article is intended as a summary, not a documentation of individual cases and we should be careful not to misinterpret the facts. -- Lysy talk 09:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
From the paragraph
"Though no international judicial body has considered the issue, the deportations could be considered a crime against humanity under international law as the International Criminal Court applies it today. However on the background of Nazi German murderers, cruelty and proportion of 1:10 killings the impersonal accusation looks very uncertainly to be practical."
the last sentence should be removed (and the first rewritten in line with de Zayas). The " impersonal" "accusation" of crime against humanity would certainly not be ignored just because of crimes on the German part. The whole sentence certainly comes from no source. As Dr. Alfred de Zayas, "a prominent expert in international law" stated: "With regard to the legal aspects of the Expulsion, were such expulsions to take place today, there is no question that it would constitute the violation of various provisions of international law." Read on. Sciurinæ 21:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
that last sentence was inserted by 131, and has been routinely removed by other users.
-- Jadger 03:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Show me one article about German crimes discussing legal status of them according to contemporary law. Because~there aren't any - prove you aren't biased putting this sentence here, not in hundreds of other articles. Xx236 14:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm unconvinced that the Potsdam conference legalised the expulsion, contrary to what the wiki article says. Not only did they lack the rights to unlimited power but Article XIII's main aim was to stop the "wild" expulsions. [11] I've removed the notion from the article in this edit. What is more, did the Potsdam agreement permit expulsions in the territories that were German before WWII? (Btw The article should also avoid one-sentence paragraphs. I don't know which guideline says so but I'm pretty sure there was one). Sciurinæ 19:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The right place to discuss the Potsdam Conference is its Talk page. Xx236 09:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be some concern as to whether direct, intentional killing played a part in the large number of deaths associated with the evacuation, flight and expulsion of Germans. I would argue that it is not worth asserting that direct, intentional killing played a significant role in the deaths unless it accounted for at least 10% of all deaths. Assuming for now that the number of deaths was somewhere between 400,000 and 2,000,000, we are looking for evidence to support somewhere between 40,000 and 200,000 deaths attributable to acts of direct, intentional killing. Whether these deaths were caused by individuals or militias is a secondary issue.
Another question would be how many of the deaths are attributable to Soviet concentration camps. Does anybody have information on these figures?
-- Richard 22:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Lubin - NKWD executed 500 handicapped in asylum and 150 elderly people. But NKWD wasn't any militia.
Many were senseless killings by opportunistic mobs and individuals - what is many here? Toward 2 000 000 - tens of thousands aren't many for me. Xx236 14:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it was even many tens of thousands. First group would be those who were killed by run wild victims of concentration camps. There were some descriptions I read in past. Second, some of communist criminal simpletons from delegatures on Recovered Territories could make some private robberies. (You know who the opportunists were very often). The third would be Volksdeutsche, who were born in Poland got revenges from before WW II and were very effective and knowledgeable traitor. I heard they were chased and I believe could be killed in more serious number. I would guess in total it would be 20 thou. They families have a right to mourning - I mean families not the all kind of organizations. However in comparison to the scale and format what Nazi Germany did it is very very little. It would be much more correct if the families would shed their tears more privately. The public multiplication of the numbers only reminds other nations about their deaths.-- 131.104.218.46 07:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
WOW 131, you leave me speechless and in awe (but not the good kind). I don't know how anyone can respond to that, or whether it is actually worth a response. please, this is not a place for you to guess or idle chitchat on the subject, please cite a source that backs up your claims so we can add them to the article. Who are you to tell people how to mourn the loss of thier family? I'm sure if you lost family members to senseless murder you would also raise an outcry.
-- Jadger 07:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to revisit the tone of this article. First of all, I think we need to make a good faith effort to understand whether we are talking about 400,000 or 2,000,000 deaths. This is not quite an order of magnitude difference but it is still a factor of 5x difference.
I thought the "scorecard" was ZgV 2,200,000 Overmans 1,100,000 and Haar 400,000-500,000. We should be able to give some sense of what the "distribution of credibility" is among these estimates. What I mean is "If you did a poll of historians who have some knowledge of the area, what would they say were the reasonable estimates and what would they say were less plausible estimates." I had previously been happy to say 1.1 - 2.2 million deaths with 400,000 being a new and low estimate. Does anybody have evidence to indicate how Haar's estimate of 400,000 has been received in the academic community (and in the news media)? Does everybody now say "Oh, of course, geez those ZgV guys were way over-exaggerating the numbers." Or do people say "Well, you know, Haar's methodology has its flaws and Overmans' estimates are really more reliable."
Wikipedia's NPOV policy does not require us to give equal weight to all points of view. In order to be a useful resource, we do need to give the reader some indication of the direction of mainstream thought on a topic, including mention of challenges to the mainstream doctrine and also characterizing flakier, fringe positions as such.
-- Richard 15:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
2 200 000 and 1 100 000 are maximal and minimal estimates of looses in the east, including flight, war and expulsion. 400 000 -500 000 are looses after the war. Overmans has published an article Rueidiger Overmans, "Personelle Verluste der deutschen Bev6lkerung durch Flucht und Ver- treibung," Dzieje Najnowsze, 1994, no. 2:51-66 (400 000 -500 000 - I haven't read this). Xx236 11:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Related to the "range of estimated deaths" discussion above, I also think we need to come to some conclusion about the relative contributions of "direct, intentional killing" vs. "deaths due to causes associated with the hardships of forced migration". When we compare the expulsions to the Holocaust, we are suggesting that the deaths from the expulsions were just as intentional as those of the Holocaust.
Obviously, no one was suggesting that the ethnic Germans be given first-class rail tickets with free housing, jobs and other social assistance. And certainly there were those who were happy to see the Germans suffer and even die as they fled and were expelled from Eastern Europe.
However, it is likely that many (perhaps even most) didn't really care what happened to the Germans and whether they lived or died as long as they were gone.
If you agree with me on this, then it is plausible that no more than a few tens of thousands or a couple hundred thousand deaths were attributable to "direct, intentional killing". I am not minimizing this number as if to say that the deaths of tens of thousands is unimportant.
However, in the scope of a tragedy that involves 1.1 to 2.2 million deaths, even 100,000-200,000 deaths is only 10-20% of the total number of deaths. Does anybody (i.e. any reliable source) shed light on this question? If we can source this, I think this would be an important point to communicate to the reader.
Look at it from the other perspective. Are we prepared to suggest that 50% of the deaths (500,000 - 1,000,000 deaths) were caused by direct, intentional attacks and that the other half were caused by disease and malnutrition?
I certaintly doubt that anyone would suggest that 80-90% deaths were due to direct, intentional attacks and that only 10-20% died from disease and malnutrition.
I would not propose to insert any of the above text into the article at this time because it would be unverified original research. However, I do believe this is an important issue for us to wrestle with and to determine what the reliable sources think on this question.
I forget who communicated with de Zayas last year. Whoever it was, perhaps he would ask de Zayas what he thinks about this question.
-- Richard 15:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
German Wikipedia gives the number of deaths in camps in Poland (mostly as the result of ilnesses) 60.000-80.000 . It's German, i.e. maybe overestimated, number. The other causes of deaths were:
About de Zayas - according to some German historians he is sometimes revisionistic, eg. when describing young Germans' attitude toward the lost areas. Xx236 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, please, what do you specifically mean by the "better reputation of German institutions" ? No offence but which ones ? -- Lysy talk 21:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I haven't quoted any general Polish estimates, because I don't know them. I quote academic German and emotional German.
It's German, i.e. maybe overestimated, number - many German sources overestimate the numbers of victims, e.g. for Łambinowice there is a German estimate about 5 000 and a Polish one 1000-1400, I don't remeber. One of the reasons was that the German author ignored the survivors living in Poland. I have written maybe to stress my doubts.
Why don't you verify the German source rather than attacking me?
Deaths in Poland should inform who was responsible - the mob, Soviet commanded army, Red Army or NKVD. Xx236 09:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The sub-paragraph partially repeats the last sentence above it.
The real history in Germany was:
Xx236 09:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
As I can see in the history of this page it is a target of continuous edit war. One side reverts changes of the other side and vice versa. Both sides sometimes breaks NPOV by adding unreferenced biased statements. One side put there it should be considered as a crime second side removes it and add what should be done with the graves etc. etc. etc. Just people make up your minds, this is encyclopedia here is no place for anything like shall be, should be, will be, going to be or for any personal revenge against anyone, here is place just for what was or were, for the history. Support your edits with references and get out with your personal thoughts about the topic. I wanted to hold back with comments but I must react to the current regtettable situation. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 13:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
would not be more acceptable to what you call "the other side", don't you think so too? The inconvenient legal dimension contrasts the simplistic shifting of all responsibility for the expulsion on the previous German atrocities. [14] Sciurinæ 16:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)"From a legal perspective, the expulsion of Germans violated the Hague Conventions and, applying the Nuremberg Principles, it clearly constituted war crimes and crimes against humanity. [13]"
I wouldn't call it an edit war as much as one user ignoring consensus and adding his own POV into the article, and being reverted
-- Jadger 23:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a controversial article. Some editors, especially anon IP users, come and go trying to insert their POV without attempting to determine what the consensus might be, let alone respect such consensus if it exists. These edits get reverted quickly and rightly so.
Other editors, usually with Wikipedia user accounts, are less transient and have been here for a number of months. However, due to the controversial nature of this article, there are many points on which there is no established consensus. Instead, there is a heated debate on this Talk Page. While the debate may get overly hot and overly personal at times, it is far preferable to debate here than to edit war on the article itself.
It would be good if we were all collegial and congenial to each other but, failing that, let us at least maintain civility and attempt to seek a consensus position by assuming good faith.
-- Richard 18:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The name of the article is "Expulsion of Germans after World War II". The first paragraph says "escape ... during 1945". Choose one - either after or during and after. Either expulsion or evacuation and expulsion. Is there someone serious around? Xx236 14:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is still the Evacuation of East Prussia.
The name you mean is German exodus from Eastern Europe. Xx236 15:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There are several problems with such title - part of East Prussia became later Poland, the other part didn't. There is a problem when Eastern Germany became Poland - in Spring 1945, after the Potsdam conference or after one of the Polish-German treaties. Xx236 09:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The information that the report was Soviet has been removed by an anonymous author. Why the only report quoted is about Polish cruelties (there are thousands reports about other cruelties)? Why is the word Soviet illegal? Why the article was frozen at that moment, rather than reverted? Xx236 11:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The book is just a mess. The sentence is cited as it is, and has in my perception no sense. Let the others see the stupidity. Seems to me if there was nothing the "events" had to be invented. The previous sentence ending page 75 and is: "Even the Soviet expressed shock at the Poles' behavior." end of page 75. Next is the sentence in article from beginning of page 76. The book is very interesting. Actually the Soviet officers occur as angels of mercy or similar creatures. Why so? You see Soviets have petrol and are strong thus it is not economical to blame them. Poland is other matter it is small country and can be the free booty. Be economical with the true. Good day for all. AS>
You know, many Germans see here the confirmation of their opinions - the Poles were the biggest criminals. Xx236 15:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. It should be erased but they will not do that until will find some excuse. I can not do that since only administration is now in power. The edition was my first step to press the manipulators to withdraw the "bla bla". It seems to me they could not found nothing worst except this and needed to improve the author who himself is also manipulator. The first switch with "by whatever means necessary" is a proof. AS>
OK, you guys, now User:Robdur has gone and protected the page from editing. This is not good but maybe it's what we need to cool down the edit war and move towards a productive discussion of contentious issues.
Andrew, (AS), please list your issues as succinctly as you can. Let us see if we can address your concerns.
As you have no doubt learned, just making edits without considering consensus leads to edit warring which leads to blocks and page protection. The admin in question did not protect the page to stop your POV from being included in the article. He protected the page to stop the edit warring (which, in my opinion, was mild and didn't warrant page protection yet). Nonetheless, we now have a good opportunity to force the debate away from edit warring and onto this Talk Page.
Robdur's talk page indicates that he is willing to lift page protection after about a week. Our ability to discuss and resolve the points of contention calmly and civilly will determine whether we have to wait that long. Above all, assume good faith and seek consensus. This means that, in order to get your POV included, you will probably have to accept that the opposing POV will also be included. Nobody has a lock on the truth and Wikipedia is not about truth but about verifiability. This means that you need to back up your assertions with reliable sources.
-- Richard 19:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, I find your teachings superflous. You are biased like a hell, you attack me without any logic and you teach people how to write. Xx236 08:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I understood you are particularly involved/interested in the article. In my opinion every of the Wikepedia articles should have a responsible person to edit it. Particularly the controversial articles need this two level edition. The editing person would be following the discussion and enter the conclusion from talk. Rest of the participants could complain to higher administration if the organizer would not run the business objectively.
The following are my concerns:
First my point is that the given numbers are absolutely unsure. Nobody actually knows how many Germans died in the years 1945-1948. The estimate range is from 400 thou up to 3 millions. In the article World War II casualties [15] the number of civilians deaths is 1,840,000 for all the period of WW II thus the 3 millions is something strange.
Cite 18: The 1939 Population is Germany within 1937 borders and the Free City of Danzig. Austria and the 7,100,000 million ethnic Germans of eastern Europe are not included in the German population [69]. However, the 500,000 military and 400,000 civilian deaths of ethnic Germans in eastern Europe are included with total German losses, after the war 5 million became refugees in Germany and Austria
First you should give at least proportion between cusses of death. Most above all we have to found a way to separate and evacuation casualties and the deportation casualties. If you can not we can not put the uncertain number (up to 3 million) in to one “package” and stick to it label “crime against humanity”.
2) The “by whatever means necessary” from Naimark, Russian in Germany. p. 75, I found inappropriate. There is put instead direct citation from First Secretary ofCommunist Party talk. This is the “foundation” of Naimark “expression”. He did not provide a source with the words “by whatever means necessary”. This words suggest planed cruelty and is wrong.
3) Leaving aside the Naimark accuracy I will give you some citation from the same chapter: Page 74/75: “Polish women were not spared the horrors of Silesian campaign either. Sometimes Soviet solders did not believe their protestations that they were Poles and not Germans; sometimes it didn’t matter to the rampagings soldiers.” -that how war looks, so…
Actually only last paragraph of the chapter: “Soviet Soldiers, German Women, and the Problem of the Rape” refers to Polish soldiers and Polish authorities.
I will give you the exact citation from pages 75/75:
“The Germans in Breslau,” wrote the city’s antifascist group, ”are steadily being spiritually driven into the ground [gehen langsam seelisch zu Grunde].” Even the Soviets expressed shock at the Poles’ behavior. (end the page 75). (start page 76) Polish soldiers stated one report, "relate to German women as to free booty". You judge yourself what is what and is it so important and terrible event to put it in Wikipedia article. Is this the thing which really proof: “The early phase of expulsion was often particularly brutal.” - The last sentence is Wikipedia creation.
4) The “Polish enclave in Emsland” does not provide a source and actually this was German territory under – who knows whose administration. Not under Polish one for sure. So what it has to do with deportation from Polish territory? And, there were some marriages – I do not know…
Xx236 08:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Meantime it is all, of course I will watch the article. My request is to be very careful with words and avoid irritations and provocations. It is highly political subject and only intelligent individuals are able to do the job for future good. AS>
Truly fascinating manipulations and general POV pushing going on here. The topic is deportations in Poland. Naimark, is an expert on European ethnic cleansing [16]. In a chapter on Russian mass rapes, he thought it was relevant enough to insert half a page on the behaviour of Poles during the phase in question, I.e. during the topic of the part of the article sub-chapter.
Some comments on AS comments.
What we have here are Polish authorities providing polish citizens with a "carte blanche" to engage in plunder and rape against Germans for the purpose of ethnically cleansing a territory that they wish to make Polish. The Poles make the most of the opportunity. It is not any more complicated than that. To have seasoned rapists such as the Soviets express shock at the Polish solidiers behaviour is highly notable, and probably explains why Naimark chose to include it.-- Stor stark7 Talk 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Noimark writes thus: The desperate situation for German women in Silesia was in general exacerbated by the Poles, whose "desire for retribution" was often as intense--for very understandable reasons--as that of the Russians. More often than not, the incoming Polish authorities were even less concerned about the safety of German women than were the Russian officers, to whom the German population turned for protection. After all the Silesian territories had been turned over by the Allies to Polish occupation, but not yet to incorporation into the new Poland. Orders went out from the Polish communists to expel Germans by whatever means necessary, to ensure incorporation as well as occupation.(31) As a result, the Polish administration of the new territories made little effort to protect local Germans from the deprivations of Polish or Russian rapists and thieves.(32) In a city like Breslau, the Germans fear of the Russians was quickly replaced by fear of the Poles. In fact, it was almost too much for the Germans to survive the Russian attacks only to have the Poles persecute them once again. "The Germans in Breslau," wrote the city’s antifascist group, "are steadily being spiritually being driven into the ground [gehen langsam seelisch zu Grunde]."(33) Even the Soviets expressed shock at the Poles’ behaviour. Polish soldiers, stated one report, "relate to German women as to free booty."(34) Note 31: Se, for example, Wladyslaw Gomulka’s speech to the plenum of the Central Committee of the Polish Workers’ party, May 20-21, 1945, in which he notes: "We must expel all the Germans because countries are built on national lines and not on multi-national ones." Antony Polonsky and Boleslaw Drukier, eds., The Beginnings of Communist Rule in Poland (London: Routhledge and Kegan Paul, 1980), p. 425. Note 32: See the short history of the German expulsion from Silesia, including some striking photographs, in HIA, Sander, box2, folder4. Note 33: Report from Breslau, August 15, 1945, SAPMO-BA, ZPA, IV 2/11/228, p. viii. Note 34: Biuro Informatsii SVAG, Biulleten’, no 84/88 (November 23, 1946), RTsKhIDNI, f. 17, op. 128, d. 151, l. 81. See also Serov to Beria, March 8, 1945, GARF, f. 9401, op. 2, d. 93, l. 336.
TO Stor stark7: Regarding: It is merely provided as an example in the footnotes. "Note 31: Se, for example, Wladyslaw Gomulka’s speech to the plenum…"
Regarding: Please do, he is an acclaimed historian.
Regarding: your point 3
Regarding: #4:
Hey where is the proof about "carte blanche" you are completely mad. Mr. N exaggerate and you follow. So you are offended that “Polish administration of the new territories made little effort to protect local Germans” well so, I say SORY the effort was “little” for sure German make “big” effort to make “order” in occupied Poland. We must know who did the “LITTLE“ and who did the “BIG”.-- 131.104.218.46 22:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss the various points of contention separately so as to help focus discussion. This section is intended to discuss solely the uncertainty around the estimates of deaths due to the expulsions and the causes of those deaths. Discussion of Naimark and "by any means necessary" should happen in a separate section.
First, I agree that it is very difficult to ascertain with any accuracy how many Germans died during the evacuation, flight and expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe. As the Estimates... article notes: the population balance methodology tends to yield higher numbers than the record of actual deaths methodology. It is reasonable to assume that the truth lies somewhere between the two but the two sets of numbers are so far apart that it is unclear where the true number lies (closer to one or the other or smack in between the two?)
The only NPOV approach is to mention the entire range and to suggest where the mainstream of scholarly thought is running. If German historians think 2.2 million and Poles think 400,000 then we should say that but we need to provide citations of German historians and Polish historians to back up the suggestion that the bias is based on nationality of the historian. If the numbers of the Bundes Statistischesamt and the ZgV are "old" and the numbers of Overmans and Haar are not only new but widely accepted as better, then we should say that but we need citations to indicate that the ZgV's numbers are being increasingly seen as wildly exaggerated. One or two historians coming up with new lower estimates does not prove that those historians are right. All we can comment on is the extent to which these lower estimates are being accepted by the scholarly community and by the popular media.
Second, it is even harder to attribute cause of death with any accuracy. We cannot be certain how many deaths occurred due to direct, intentional attacks and how many occurred due to exposure, privation and disease.
I agree that the article takes the general tone of "Expulsions were sanctioned by the Allies at Potsdam and implemented by Soviets, Poles, Czechs and other national authorities. As a result, 1.1-2.2 million ethnic Germans died. This was a crime against humanity."
For most of last year, the POV debate tended to center around whether the expulsions were justified and what justifications and motivations might have existed for the expulsions. Any debates about numbers tended to center around the Centre against Expulsions number of 2.2 million (based on the Bundes Statistischesamt numbers) and the Overmans number of 1.1 million.
However, the current POV debate is focused on a different question. That is, "How many Germans actually died during the period in question and what was the cause of those deaths?"
We now know that Ingo Haar has suggested that 400,000-500,000 is the maximum number that he thinks died although we have not seen the explanation in English of why that lower estimate is more reasonable than the higher estimates.
It appears from previous discussion that Overmans agrees with Haar on this lower estimate. (Did I get that right?)
However, I would wager that deZayas does not agree with the lower estimate. With whom does the mainstream agree? Or are there two factions who disagree strongly on this question? Whatever the case may be, it is our job to document the state of knowledge and opinion in the scholarly community. It is NOT our job to determine who is right and who is wrong.
However, 500,000 deaths is still a big enough number to talk about crime against humanity IF it can be asserted that most of the deaths were attributable to the expulsions as opposed to the harsh conditions in postwar Europe. What we're really looking for is an analysis of the number of excess deaths i.e. those that would not have happened if the Germans had been allowed to remain in Poland. If no
reliable source has done that analysis, then we are left with saying that it is unknown what proportion of those deaths are due to the expulsions. It would be interesting to know what Haar and Overmans have to say on this question.
-- Richard 08:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
During two years - 500 000.
The question isn't - how many people died, but rather how many of them died because of the expulsion. One should compare the mortality among expelled and among Germans. Some authors (Bacque) claim that that mortality was very high.
If you take 2 million, you have a genocide. It's the core why you need 2 million. You add victims of allied bombings, of Nazi crimes, of Soviet camps, of Soviet crimes in the SBZ and you call it expulsion. Xx236 11:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC) As far as I know the German Wiki doesn't quote any big crimes against Germans in Poland other than the camps, in which 60.000-80.000 Germans died, mostly due to ilnesses. Poles and Ukrainians were imprisoned in many such camps, and not during months like the Germans, but till 1945. Xx236 13:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Allied bombings of civilians is still a war crime Xx, and the strafing of civilians by the Red Airforce should be included in that. No one has said that all those separate ideas have been added anyways, you are just pulling that out of thin air, can you reference that? And also, the German wikipedia is not in question here, please stick to the topic. I fail to see your point Tulko, can you provide any sources that back up your claim that ~1 million of the expellees starved to death? As has been done numerous times before, it has been attempted to draw this offtopic so that nothing can get accomplished. Tulko, I know I cant compare this to the Holocaust, it took the Nazis 12 years to murder 6 million jews (500 000 a year) whereas it took the Soviets and their friends just a couple of months after the war to murder 2 million Germans, that is a far more startling statistic.
-- Jadger 16:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys. This discussion is interesting but is looking more and more like a general discussion board rather than a Wikipedia Talk Page. We are trying to reach consensus and we will not reach consensus by arguing points back and forth. Me personally, I am leaning in favor of Tulkolahten's general argument although not necessarily with the specific numbers that he proposes. However, it's all original research. You can argue back and forth for a year and not arrive at something which can be inserted into the article in compliance with Wikipedia's no original research policy. What we need are reliable sources who make this argument. Somebody go dig up stuff that Haar and Overmans have written and said. Surely there have been responses and debate to their opinions in the scholarly journals and popular media. Find those and quote them here.
That's right, I agree with you Richard. Discussion seems to be more and more POV just right time to stop it and return back to the original problem. Numbers which I provided are, of course, just an example of how high they can be. For 10.000.000 people in the Czech Republic that number is about 120.000 per year under good environment condition (not war or shortly after war). I just wanted to show that these numbers in the 15.000.000 population with many old people can't be lower, but probably X times higher. We can focus now for searching for some related documents. Because I think that this number should be significant. Also I am not sure if the estimation numbers counts with Paulus's army (250.000) or not. I am not against the truth but I don't like to see biased strong words like war crimes or murderers in relation to this. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 17:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
So you're saying that among these 15.000.000 people was a majority of fresh strong young men ready to serve in the army, huh ? NO Tulko, I'm not assuming anything (unlike you), I'm saying we must have a source that explicitly states what is to be added into the article. That is all I'm saying, We must use a source and not put conjecture in the article. Stop reading whatever you want into what I write.
I will reiterate what I said before, in case you missed it, as it seems you did by rewording it and pretending it was your own This discussion doesn't need to happen until they can provide sources that back up the claims made. The current article version is referenced.
-- Jadger 23:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's revisit Tulkolahten's argument (which, as I've said, I mostly agree with). Germans residing in Eastern Europe at the end of the war were either elderly, women, children or unfit for military service. Most of the able-bodies young men were probably in military service. So this civilian population was already likely to have a higher death rate. Add the privations of postwar Europe (famine, exposure and disease) and you have an even higher death rate. What was the "baseline" death rate (e.g. prewar?). What is the multiplier due to the factors that I've just mentioned? Is it 1.5x, 2x or 3x? If this is a "mainstream" argument, then surely some reliable source must have made it. Where's the citation?
For now, I think we should summarize Tulkolahten's argument while making it very clear that we have no way of knowing how many of the 1-2 million deaths are attributable to direct, intentional killing or, for that matter, attributable to the expulsion vs. attributable to the privations of postwar conditions in Eastern Europe.
-- Richard 00:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you can discuss if 99% were drafted or 98%. Do it however in an another place. Xx236 11:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
millions of ethnic Germans who lived in Romania - Jadger, learn - the time of teaching will come in the future. Xx236 08:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
well, there is what is already in the article, "Poles considering German women as war booty", etc. etc. Also, when was this "highly civilized" statement made? when the allied HQ was still minimizing and defending Soviet atrocities, or once the Cold War had started?
-- Jadger 16:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
So, are we saying that only Poles considered German women as war booty but not Czechs or any other country? No, we are saying those are the only ones that are verified and cited, whereas we do not know about those from Czechoslavakia or another expelling country. We are not saying that the Polish action was substantially different, we are simply giving an example of how it was in Poland. We do not know exactly how bad it was in other countries (until we find a suitable reference for Tulko's "highly civilized").
-- Jadger 15:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't agree with removing a reliable source because other sections don't have a reliable source that states something. not to mention that if the expulsion from other countries was not as bad as in Poland, why would a source mention something like that? it would be like saying "I am human" to someone, it is assumed, and only mentioned usually if it is not the norm. However, If we were to add statements like "the Red Army was also abusive of the German population, raping many women..." we risk minimizing the atrocities committed against them by saying it was commonplace. However, in the article there are numerous accounts of what happened in Czechoslavakia, fully cited, So I say let the reader see it for themselves.
-- Jadger 16:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
>It appears from previous discussion that Overmans agrees with Haar on this lower estimate. (Did I get that right?)
>It is NOT our job to determine who is right and who is wrong.
>However, 500,000 deaths is still a big enough number to talk about crime against humanity IF it can be asserted that most of the deaths were attributable to the expulsions as opposed to the harsh conditions in postwar Europe.
No reasonable person will accuse other individual for murder if has no certain evidence. Why some irresponsible nosily elements found possible and appropriate to accuse nations in similar sytuation? Surpassingly it seems to be the people with strong egoistic nature. There is no way to compare expulsion with crime against humanity because how to name the Nazi Death Camps, bombing civilians on open roads (Germans actions for clarification) etc. etc. total 55-60 millions deaths in WW II. NO WAY.
>Surely there have been responses and debate to their opinions in the scholarly journals and popular media. Find those and quote them here.
The only Polish monography of the subject is probably:
Xx236 11:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Revelant is that Germans have collected accounts and demographic data and they impose their point of view. Polish historians research details. Xx236 15:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The author works in Poland, I don't know if she has German or Upper Silesian roots.
"anderthalb Millionen Menschen verwiesen, die während der Zwangsaussiedlung und Flucht der Ost- und Sudetendeutschen ermordet oder Opfer der Entbehrungen wurden", which means that 1.5 million died during "Flight and Rxpuslion", which includes the war. Apparently 1.5 didn't die after the war. Xx236 08:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Except for Tulko that areas inhabited by Germans was taken before the capitulation, and the people were forced from their homes (expelled) before the capitulation. Soldiers have always expelled inhabitants from their houses in times of war, that has happened for hundreds of years. That is like claiming not a single meter of French soil was under German control before the French surrender in 1940. Also, I would like to point out that those that escaped before the Red army arrived did not expect to be giving up forever the land they and their families had owned for centuries. They were expecting to return to their homes after the war was over, just like everyone in the World. But when they were not allowed to return home (They then can be described as expelled). That is like you parking your car in the parking lot and someone coming along and stealing it. then the cops saying you left it so you gave up all your rights to your car. You cannot tell me you would be perfectly fine with that happening to you, Tulko.
-- Jadger 03:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
If the 3 million is a honest estimate than I honestly declare, that I assume that Jadger isn't honest. Xx236 07:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Among people there were no guns - just a few. But hardly enough to kill 3.000.000 people. And I suppose no one died before the invention of gunpowder then? There are inumerable ways to murder someone without a firearm. And I'm sure no one will find a discarded weapon in a warzone, right? (that is sarcasm) You are assuming the Polish population spontaneously expelled the German population, but it was a number of organized groups who also did it, the Red Army, the new Polish gov't, etc.etc. In some areas of the "recovered territories" there was absolutely no Polish population (the farthest west for example), so how did a non-existent polish population spring up and expell them? if it was spontaneous idea of the common Poles as you imply, then it wouldn't have been so similar across the board, and it wouldn't have been so effective, many Germans would have remained.
And also think about this - who was armed in these times - red army, allies forces, few revolution guards (it is a term, it was not a militia) and police, that's all. You are assuming what I refuted above, who is to say that it wasnt the Red Army and Polish gov't that expelled them? I sure as hell didn't. It is Germans expelled from (what is now) Poland, not necessarily Germans expelled by their Polish neighbours.
-- Jadger 16:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
>The problem here is that we're not interested in your knowledge (or mine either). We are interested in the knowledge expressed by reliable sources in published material. --Richard 21:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The 2.2 million is a black box, those people perished during and after the war. There is no slightest evidence that so many died during the expulsions as the result of the expulsions. Even German sources use the term "flight and expulsion". The title of this article is as it is. I have a deja vu feeling. Xx236 08:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
>Yes, I am coming to agree with this with the exception that there are 80,000 - 100,000 documented deaths of Germans sent to concentration camps.
AS 131.104.218.46 23:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I see the article is protected. Well done. I would sincerely suggest that everyone here re-reads the Wikipedia:Reliable sources. It provides most of the answers why Wikipedia favours scholarly sources like Ingo Haar over non-scholarly like Centre Against Expulsions. -- Lysy talk 16:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Irak is happening now, the expulsion was 60 years ago. Xx236 08:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The Centre Against Expulsions is not reliable (worth trust) since mix in one box expulsion and flight and name it EXPULSION. (end of sentence).
Richard, you did not answer me regarding the “80,000 - 100,000 documented deaths of Germans”. I think you should start to put such documented deaths together as examples and after that we can discuss the estimates. If we can not discuss hard evidence this "estimates" looks as pure political propaganda.
For the meaning of Concentration Camp this is a definition: The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.
The definition is taken from [24] anyway.
It seems the preliminary meaning is changing because tragic events. The same happen with swastika used, already in Sanskrit and by Slavs as symbol of four elements water, air, fire and soil. I will oppose naming something different then Nazi concentration camps with the same way "concentration camps" until we will clarify the difference of conditions in next sentence. There was nothing in proximity to this Hell on Earth made by Nazi.
According to Britannica: Internment centre established by a government to confine political prisoners or members of national or minority groups for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment. The prisoners are usually selected by executive decree or military order. Camps are usually built to house many people, typically in highly crowded conditions. Countries that have used such camps include Britain during the South African War, the Soviet Union (see Gulag), the U.S. (see Manzanar Relocation Center), and Japan, which interned Dutch civilians in the Dutch East Indies during World War II. A variation, called a “reeducation camp,” was used in Vietnam after 1975 and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Most notorious were the death camps of Nazi Germany, including Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Treblinka. AS>
Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau weren't typical "death camps". There is no precise term describing Nazi camps other than "concentration". German Wikipedia describes in its KZ article Bereza Kartuska, where one person died pro year and the Nazi camps. The German Wikipedia is very precise, but not there. Xx236 07:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
When this page is unprotected, I would like to add the following (with some further editing to avoid issues copyright violation)
-- Richard 16:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The link works for me but, if it helps, here's the URL http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=263131117051503
I get the gist of what you're saying but I'm a bit confused so please clarify. Also please try to fit it into the framework of the text above. According to Bjork, Nitschke identifies "flight" and "evacuation" involving several million people and several hundred thousand deaths. However, hundreds of thousands "made their way back" (presumably after the Soviet advance had turned into an occupation). Then there were "wild" expulsions followed by "forced resettlements".
Are you saying that some of the people who left during "flight" and "evacuation" were not allowed to return? I would think that these would fall into category of either "wild" expulsions or "forced resettlement".
Separately, I think a key insight is that this text asserts that several hundred thousand died during the "flight" and "evacuation". While I think we need more detail before we can arrive at a solid conclusion, this suggests to me that the 1.1-2.2 million deaths could well be supported as being the total for flight, evacuation and expulsion. This makes sense since the 2.2 million deaths comes from a "population balance" methodology and there is no way to separate flight and evacuation from expulsion using that methodology.
However, even using the lower figure of 1.1 million deaths and subtracting out several hundred thousand deaths from flight and evacuation, you still wind up with several hundred thousand deaths from expulsion.
What I think we need to understand is "what are the details behind the 400,000-500,000 estimate given by Haar and Overmans?". How did they arrive at those numbers? We need to see some tables similar to the ones that are in the current Estimates of deaths... article.
-- Richard 22:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I don't have access to JSTOR so I can't access the full text in the first link.
From Bjork's introduction to his review of two books related to the expulsions:
I would like to use some of the above text in this article because I think it puts the expulsions in an appropriate context.
-- Richard 16:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
As long as the obvious quips like (outside of Germanist circles, of course) are removed, I assume they would be of course. It seems mostly suitable.
-- Jadger 22:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I understand it, the "population balance" were only conducted for political reasons and the method was not used by any historian in any scholarly research. Does this method account for the German soldiers from these areas who were killed in action in other parts of Europe ? As far as I know many Germans perished in fights. -- Lysy talk 07:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Tulko, you are living in a dream world, there are no exact numbers known as this was a chaotic time period, and autopsies were not performed on the millions of bodies. No article on Nazi atrocities in Poland bothers to differentiate between those executed by the Nazis, and those who died as a result of the situation that was forced upon them by the Nazis. I agree with Richard, if you are to claim something different than what has already been verified, you must have very good sources.
Not only that, you must remember that the Nazis moved German "settlers" into this newly conquered land in order to make it into lebensraum, So if you are using pre-war census data the numbers will be lower than what the actual population was.
-- Jadger 21:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Where did you get that from Tulko? I did not say you can make up numbers because the exact number is not known, I said exactly the opposite of that! and Haar and Overmans has been extensively criticized, as they only count those that are known to have died and not those families that were massacred in the wilderness and not heard from again. Those that have been missing for 60+ years according to Haar and Overmans are all still living somewhere without human contact, in heavily populated Europed (according to Haar and Overmans)
-- Jadger 01:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I found an interesting perspective article: "Kollektive Unschuld" by Samuel Salzborn. -- Lysy talk 01:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
just read Demographic estimates of the German exodus from Eastern Europe, there are links that point to criticism of their "work". You are also fundamentally misrepresenting what they say. they do not say that only 500 000 died, they say at the least 500 000 died, as that is the known number of deaths. They do not say the number is not higher than that, they only say it cannot be lower than that (as that is the known number of verified deaths).
-- Jadger 04:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
perhaps you should read what I type tulko, or at least stop misrepresenting it. It is not circular reasoning, I said the links on that page, notably [26] for example.
-- Jadger 03:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
one can always say that any historian has a political agenda, wether it be leftist or rightist or pro-German vs. pro-Polish. Bergner is not making his own claims on the number of victims, he is simply stating the faulty reasoning in Haar and Overmans research. Your statement is like saying that one cannot correct another person for saying 2+2=5 unless they have a mathematics diploma or are trained to professionally teach mathematics (or in general are recognized as an expert in the field). I do not need to work for NASA to be able to say that stars are far away.
-- Jadger 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
One more attempt to drive my point home. Consider the Vietnam war. Did the U.S. Army actually defeat the Viet Cong in 1971? Did the U.S. Congress hand victory to the North Vietnamese Army by refusing to provide support to the South Vietnamese in 1974/75? Was the war actually lost by the American left-wing? Is the way to avoid future Vietnams to follow the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force? Will anybody ever be able to answer these questions definitively?
What is most important here is not that Wikipedia answer these questions but rather that Wikipedia inform the reader that 30 years after the fall of Saigon, people in the United States are still debating these questions. We should let the reader know what conservatives think, what liberals and progressives think and we should ABSOLUTELY NOT TRY TO DECIDE who is right.
A similar approach could be used for the topic of this and related articles.
-- Richard 07:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to quote Congressman Reece. Eventually as a cold war propaganda example, but it's not the right article. Congressman Reece is noone outside the USA. The article
B. Carroll Reece doesn't prove his expertise in European matters. No Reece here, if you don't have rational reasons.
Xx236
09:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
If US propaganda is quoted, why not the Communist one about deserted Eastern Germany or good conditions of the deportations? Xx236 08:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Why the word expulsion is being used? It's pro-German bias. Xx236 08:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
you missed my point, he is not criticizing the number these historians have created, but how they got the number, he is criticizing their methodology. the mistake in their methodology is so glaring it can be corrected by anyone, not just someone who writes books on history.
-- Jadger 14:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Very sad that this article is blocked now and that Polish and Soviet crimes are done away with. Nowhere is historical eastern Germany mentioned. Nowhere the established number of 2.5 million casualties after May, 1945, due to the expulsion brutalities. Nothing about the destruction of German culture and buildings and monuments. It is very sad that wikipedia offers the opportunity to spread Polish-imperialist propaganda and does not recognize what Alfred de Zayas wrote on the mass murder against the eastern Germans and the ethnic Germans in other European countries. And I am not even a German. It is very sad to read I can no longer edit this article which totally denies historical facts incovenient to Polish populism and Russian mass opinion. Smith2006 20:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Tulko, stop deflecting the attention from the actual thing at hand, all of your comments reak of tu quoque fallacy. This article is about the Former Eastern Germany, not about Stalingrad, go bitch about Stalingrad on its own article. (sorry for the language, that is the best way to sum it up though) Two wrongs don't make a right Tulko, stop trying to minimize what happened to the Germans. What happened to others is no justification for the severe mistreatment and murder of civilians in the former Eastern Germany.
-- Jadger 04:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, you are a nativ speaker, so your responsibility for the languge is much higher than mine (and maybe Lysy's). You use your superiority to attack us, rather than to write a good article. Xx236 09:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
If people understand de Zayas' books the way Mr Smith does, it proves that de Zayas is a hate monger. It's interesting that mr Smith ignores the British and US participation in the 2.5 million - direct by bombs and indirect by accepting Stalin's conditions in Yalta and Potsdam. Xx236 09:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, you are assuming, where did I say that I agree with that? I would like you to quote me please, and provide a specific link to the edit version that I did it in. these sources didn't prove anything, they give another estimate, but they do not quantifiably say "this is how many people died, and there is no way a single more person could have died." what they do say is that atleast this many died, not that only this many died. And pointing out a fallacious argument is not a personal attack, I'm sorry, but please don't take offense to me correcting you. Haar and Overmans say that only those with documented deaths can be included in the official number of dead, they do not say that no more died. that is like saying all those soldiers who are MIA from WWI and WWII did not die. Of course, there are no (or very few) missing soldiers from the First World War still alive somewhere that haven't contacted their families in 90 years. Again, I would like to reiterate that Haar and Overmans estimate the number of dead, as with everyone else that has weighed in on the subject. what Haar and Overmans say is that we know atleast this many died as there deaths are recorded, they do not say that only the number they give could have died
-- Jadger 18:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
yes, I think a direct citation is in order please Lysy. and how does he know point 1)? has he found them? and 2) of course it was higher than stated, the Brits did the same thing during the battle of Britain, but how can he be certain that all are accounted for then? and we are not talking about propoganda films here, but official records, the federation of expellees did not rely on wartime newsreels to gather numbers, but official records, they would have known who had died at the front, and discounted them from the list.
-- Jadger 04:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We stalled in the local minimum. So I propose to summarize what we already have here. How many deaths is our final conclusion ? What Haar and Overmans said and is Centre against expulsions reliable source or not ? ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 10:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have quoted an answer to Haar - counting victims of the expulsion is arithmetics, the German government prefers the general numbers. The German government doesn't write the English Wikipedia. Xx236 10:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
1.7 unaccounted but not in "post-war" but during the last months of the war and after the war. Xx236 10:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Not postwar. Even German sources admit that the big numbers relate to "flight and expulsion", the "flight" was organised by Germans during WWII. Xx236 10:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
2.2 million died during the exodus from Eastern Europe, of which the expulsions are a major part of or something like that.
-- Jadger 18:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Why would we want to have this "of which the expulsion was a major part" addition ? This could mislead the reader to believe that most of the 2.2 million died during the expulsion. I would rather avoid such suggestions. -- Lysy talk 22:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Also (sorry, I feel like running in circles, too), where did we get the 2.2 mio number from ? Is this the number resulting from the "population balance" method again ? -- Lysy talk 23:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
but saying 2.2 million died during the exodus from Eastern Europe will confuse the reader more, as they will think "woah, what is this exodus from eastern Europe? I thought this was an article on the expulsions". And the word I used was major, not most, H&O state 400 000-500 000 as the minimum number of dead, that is almost 25% of 2.2 million, I would classify that as major. and Exodus includes both flight and expulsion, what other parts of it was there? if it is just flight and expulsion that make up exodus, then of course it was a major part.
-- Jadger 04:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The text below comes from a link provided by Xx236 some time ago.
I more or less understood the opening paragraphs of the article but my command of German is too weak to understand the whole article. I understand just enough to feel like it's important to understand what is being said but not enough to actually understand it.
-- Richard 10:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The last comment by Overmans [27]. Xx236 10:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Is such language acceptable? Xx236 10:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm only asking the experts - is such language acceptable? Why noone has protested or changed the title? Xx236 10:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The Flight wasn't an Expulsion. Eventually an Exodus. There is a basic difference - who was responsible for the people at given time - German, Soviet or Polish/Czech authorities. I know, but the article is adressed to readers without basic knowldge. Xx236 08:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
he never personally attacked anyone, he created a severely biased title for a discussion, but no one said that is illegal. unless of course there is a user:Polish that has been editing this article but I have somehow missed it. He only personally attacks someone if that person themself believes their own comments are chauvanistic or outright lies. It is simply a title on a discussion thread, judge him for his statements and his critiques of others, not for creating an eye-catching header. that being said, I do not support the title at all.
-- Jadger 18:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
All this said, I'm sure we do not need to discuss this one any more. -- Lysy talk 19:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Some numbers that I found:
Different estimates of the number of Germans expelled by Polish army alone during pre-Potsdam deportations (all numbers after Jankowiak, p. 93):
On top of that 365 - 1200 thousand Germans were deported by Polish administration (Jankowiak, p.119) -- Lysy talk 17:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Now a bit of original research: based on the above numbers, the number of Germans deported from Poland (1945-1949) could range from 3 to 5 million. -- Lysy talk 17:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
the Centre Against Expeulsions says 2.2 million, it is Reece who said 3 million, you are either misrepresenting those you oppose, or are severely mistaken and need to research the matter, or at the very least read the article you are commenting on.
-- Jadger 18:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
and notice where in Lysy's statement number of Germans expelled by Polish army alone this does not take into account the other non Polish Military forces that participated. So no, more Germans did not have to come from Germany to be killed. and it is unclear as to whether all sources refer to prewar borders when speaking of the expelled being "expelled from Poland" or post war boundaries.
-- Jadger 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
No, no, guys, these are not numbers of deaths but the number of Germans expelled from post-war Poland territories both by Polish army (0.2 - 1.2 m) and other Polish administration (0.37 - 1.2 m) before Potsdam plus 2.6 mio expelled after Potsdam, where we have more firm numbers. And my original research is summing these three numbers and claiming that the number of Germans expelled by Poles from post-war Poland territory in 1945-1949 would be something not lower than 0.2+0.37+2.6 = 3.17 million and not higher than 1.2+1.2+2.6 = 5 million. -- Lysy talk 19:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
“At least 500,000 Germans died during the postwar period which encompassed the evacuation, flight and forced expulsions of Germans from Eastern Europe.” Looks reasonable, it says all what can be said with dose of science and neutrality. However this is all. When no more exact number or death causes can be specified further “estimations” over the “At least..” are speculations and provocations.
“Above all, we clearly see two dangers. First, in the historical dimension, there is the danger of de-contexualizing the past, thus breaking the causal relationship between the Nazi policies of radical nationalism and racial extermination on one hand and the flight and expulsion of ethnic Germans on the other hand. Secondly, in the political dimension, there lies the danger of an ethnification of social conflicts, that is, the habit of interpreting political and social controversies in ethnic terms - and by that, in cementing the specific German völkisch ethno-nationalist tradition of viewing past, present and the future in ethnic terms. We therefore propose that a common European examination of the past based on a pluralistic, critical and enlightened discourse is much more useful than a debate on one or another variation of a "Centre against Expulsions".”
Wow, Andrew/Serafin/131 rears his ugly head again and evades the block yet again. I'm glad we both have the same taste in our mouths now Tulko (that is, if you are disgusted with me as I am with you, but I think denial is far worse than losing your cool when a vandal personally attacks you and vandalizes a page, as that quote is taken out of context).
-- Jadger 04:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC) "500 thousand killed" - one more example of cheating. 500 000 died as a result of the expulsions, mostly because of infectious diseases. The number of killed after the war is much lower. Xx236 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
cheating? lol, you can't be serious. most of the people who died in the Holocaust died of diseases like Typhus that were pandemic in the camps, but they are still all referred to as murdered. don't try to apply a double standard. the people wouldn't have contracted those infectious diseases if they hadn't of been forced from there homes. And you don't understand the semantics of killed. it is common to say "_____ was/were killed by ___(insert favourite disease)" it is the word murdered that you don't want anyone using.
-- Jadger 00:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC) "most of the people who died in the Holocaust died of diseases like Typhus " - name your source. Xx236 09:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
no it doesn't, as the article specifically states that it was the Soviets as well as those mentioned above by you who did the expelling. how can you split them? when in many instances the Poles, Czechs et al aided the Soviets in the expulsion, pointing the finger at their German neighbours, or in some cases, pointing at their rich neighbours (Polish or German) so that they could loot their belongings once they were expelled. I would like to know how Tulko proposes to clearly differentiate between those expelled by the Soviets, those expelled by the Soviets with the aid of local Poles/Czechs/whoever, those expelled by the Polish government, and those forced from their homes by angry anti-German mobs of Polish/Czech citizens. And remember Tulko, we need you to cite a source that gives us exact numbers for each group, not a source like Haar and Overmans that say atleast this many were killed.
-- Jadger 20:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
again, Tulko misrepresents/misinterprets what his opposition has said. If an elementary school child can count the number of natural deaths, how come none of us can Tulko? OMG, your reasoning is so bad it would make me laugh if it wasn't defending atrocities "Second is calling it a war crime - nobody was charged, that's the fact." so you're saying because no one was charged, it wasn't a crime! that is pure hogwash, nobody was charged from the Armenian Genocide, and no one was convicted of Nicole Simpson's murder, so according to you she was not murdered. or perhaps Jon-Benet Ramsey wasn't murdered, as no one has been charged with her murder yet. That is your reasoning, and it is atrocious. Again, you make up stuff to misrepresent your opposition, when did anyone say there were deathcamps set up? there were holding camps were people were murdered, but not death camps.
And 2000 people were killed in one hour in Treblinka, but then they had to clean up the bodies and get more gas. it was not a conveyor belt of jews going into a gas chamber, although it certainly was atrocious. citing the time it took for them to die is misleading, that is like counting how long it takes one round to be fired from a gun, and then dividing 60 by that number and saying that is how many rounds per minute you can fire, but you don't count in the reload time. Treblinka did not have the supply of gas to kill 2000 jews an hour for all the time of its operation. But again, you are taking us off-topic Tulko, we are not talking about the atrocities in Treblinka, but the atrocities committed against Germans after WWII.
-- Jadger 16:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
yes, the Centre against Expulsions, Federation of Expellees et al all claim it was a crime against humanity. If it wasn't a crime against humanity, what was it? Don't tell me Poland and the rest of eastern europe went on vacation from 1945-1948 (see here to understand what I am saying). As for your attempts to paint me as a holocaust denier, your insults do not warrant a response. I am not here to feed a troll, but to discuss the issue so we can get this page out of protection. And you are sounding an aweful lot like user:Serafin with that last response, I'd be careful not to get blocked if I were you.
-- Jadger 19:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
And I claim that the Centre against Expulsions is higly biased. It's interesting that the late President of the ZgV gave much lower numbers of victims in his book than the Centre. Split personality? Xx236 08:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Did you actually read what I wrote? I never said I wanted you blocked, I said if you continue making comments and editing like user:Serafin did, you will be blocked for violating wikipedia policy. Blocking someone is the last resort, and I hope it can be avoided in all cases. so you claim you wanted an explanation of a sentence I wrote, that doesn't mean you have to imply I am a holocaust denier in your question. And also, your questioning is non-sequitur, I said that Treblinka did not have the constant supply of gas that required it to kill that number of people every hour for every hour from the time the camp was built to its liberation. Let's disect my sentence: a) I accepted that Treblinka exists b)I accepted the number of people murdered per hour that you gave, assuming good faith, although you didn't cite a source (thus, I am clearly not a holocaust denier). now, how does your asking if I thought the holocaust never happened follow from me saying that Treblinka was a horrible place where jews were gassed? That is a loaded question, with an implied negative connotation to the person who replies. You certainly would not support someone asking you "when did you stop beating your wife?" or "when did you tell your parents you are gay" when neither of those are known as a fact. these are of course examples and I am not asking you them, but please, have some common courtesy.
-- Jadger 05:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Jadger, I believe you don't have any right to judge other people activities here, because you do evil things yourself. Xx236 08:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
What was the edit war, that led to the article being protected. Was it over the Naimark ? Can we revisit this reference again and see if it was properly used ? Was this:
the controversial part ? Whose opinion was that ? -- Lysy talk 23:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 23:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. From the edit history I understood that one of the anonymous editors contested the Naimark references, suggesting that they were misinterpreted. Can anyone present the exact citations from the book for reference ? -- Lysy talk 23:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
he was blocked, but evaded the block, and I reverted him. ask anyone on here, I was reverting to consensus, and everyone but Serafin agreed with me, they had also been reverting him, I was the only person online when he was vandalizing the pages, so I was the only one of us available to stop his vandalism. BTW, he has been blocked permanently from editting both the German and Polish wikipedias for his actions, so I wouldn't defend a known and proven vandal if I were you.
-- Jadger 00:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Are we able to agree on a single version and consider it as a "consensus state" ? How about this one ? I mean, I know nobody is happy with it but would we be able to accept this version of a fresh start, and starting from it, try to avoid making any edits to it unless a consensus on the edits is reached first ? What do you say ? -- Lysy talk 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
what is going to be added then? I think a list of things to be added should be created here before unprotection, as the discussion has been awfully confusing and we have discussed the same things over and over.
-- Jadger 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As Jagder says, there has been so much back and forth argument that it is hard to tell what has been agreed to. While I would like to change the intro to capture the meaning of the text proposed below, I am really proposing the text with an intent of capturing the general consensus. We will have to express this consensus in different places in this article and in the Demographic estimates related to the expulsions of Germans after World War II article.
Your comments, criticisms and suggestions for improving this text are, of course, welcomed.
-- Richard 09:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Do you claim that 2 000 000 died after the war? Where exactly? Name the places of the mass killings and the numbers. We have discussed here a number of cases from the rather biased German Wikipedia. Do you know more than the German Wiki does? Xx236 16:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
civilized and organized without massive killings
Xx236 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Polish historians suggest that at least 500,000 Germans died - who does? Xx236 10:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Xx236 11:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I can provide a source and direct quote a source that proves exactly the opposite of what Tulko is saying, that is that all the expulsion in Czechoslovakia was civil and humane. Also, I do not like the sentence many would have died anyway due to the privations of postwar Europe which included famine I highlighted the word I don't think is suitable
-- Jadger 15:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not have access to the book right now, so I cannot quote it exactly. The Book is The Blonde Knight of Germany, a biography of Erich Hartmann (that article links to the ISBN number). to give you the gist of it: His unit ( JG 52) surrendered to the Americans in Czechoslovakia, but was turned over to the Russians. The Russians herded them together in a meadow with ethnic German civilians, the Russians proceeded to rape the women, forcing the men to watch as their wives and daughters were repeatedly gang-raped. during the following night, many of the people committed suicide in order to prevent this from happening to them again (suicides where thus a consequence of the harsh treatment by the expellers, and no one can claim that the suicides should not be counted in the number of dead from the expellation). After a period of time, the people were either sent to occupied Germany, or as in the case of Erich Hartmann, sent to a Soviet Gulag.
-- Jadger 00:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think by some reason you can not believe that Russians and other nations displayed less cruelty then Germans.
Well, sometimes I do not believe myself. After the savagery of German Nazis the other people show, in total, human attitude. I think, maybe because the Nazis’ savagery was disclosed for many people longer time after the WW II. What is your reason Richard you can not beleave for less taragic history than the one which imagination suggests?