![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 |
In the flight, war and expulsions. There was a war in 1945, guns, bombs, tanks, sunking ships. Xx236 ( talk) 10:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
LeMO: Lebendiges Museum Online. Berlin has spoken, the case is closed. Berlin hat gesprochen, der Fall ist beendet. Xx236 ( talk) 11:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
You miss the point, there are two sides of the argument. As editors of Wikipedia we must present both sides, not the position that fits our POV. It is importrant to remember that many reliable sources in English stiil use this figure of 2 million. We can't ignore these sources, they are a reality.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Since February 2012: "The lead section of this article may need to be rewritten. Please discuss this issue on the talk page and read the layout guide to make sure the section will be inclusive of all essential details." Xx236 ( talk) 05:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see anything like this in the quoted Ingo Haar's article. Xx236 ( talk) 08:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
In regard to two recent reverts:
Additionally, the Rubinstein's "Genocide, a history" ref also does not provide page numbers and is unavailable online for a verifiability check. Volunteer Marek 05:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
In regard to continued edit warring:
Volunteer Marek 05:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand Danish but the article says about German children in Denmark, Norway and Holland: http://www.b.dk/boeger/database-over-danske-tyskerboern
Maybe the information dispersed in the article should be integrated? Xx236 ( talk) 09:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Friedrich Nietzsche Xx236 ( talk) 07:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Germany created the Foundation and the Foundation created the project of the Museum. It's the recent German opinion. Not Nawratil, not Erika Steinbach. Xx236 ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Rossevelt and Churchill allowed Stalin to occupy Poland during the Yalta Conference, but the London government didn't have any meaning since the Katyn massacre discovery and gen. Sikorski's death. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I made a series of edits to the lede to reflect the current position of the German government that the Nazi era war crimes motivated the Allies to expel the Germans. [6] Es wurde schlimm, und es wurde schwer, Gott zu verstehen. Getrieben durch Hitlers Wahn vom "Lebensraum im Osten" begann Deutschland einen Krieg, dessen Ziel die ethnische Neuordnung weiter Teile Osteuropas durch Vertreibung, Umsiedlung, Deportation, Vernichtung und Germanisierung war. Millionen von Menschen fielen diesem Wahn zum Opfer. Allein über eine Million Polen wurden von Deutschen deportiert und vertrieben. Fünf bis sechs Millionen polnische Staatsbürger kamen unter der deutschen Besatzung ums Leben, davon drei Millionen Juden. Note well that this is in stark contrast to the cold war position in West Germany that refused to link the war crimes of Nazi Germany to the expulsions.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Summarizing - Poles were expelled and murdered and Mr Köhler who replaced the racially lower Skierbieszów people tells stories about the cruelty of "The Expulsion". Xx236 ( talk) 13:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't from be better? Xx236 ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about many aspects of the legacy:
and while fascinated by it, am a little . . .. disgruntled that there are no references anywhere in the first several paragraphs. I know how difficult it is to go back and add those, and I have no inclination to put citation needed tags all over the place, but is a reference per paragraph asking too much? Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 19:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
http://jch.sagepub.com/content/40/3/483
The article describes situation in Western Germany, however the same hatred to German masters was created everywhere. Xx236 ( talk) 11:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain the context - German genocide, national policy, forced migrations, extermination of social leaders and of educated people (eg. in Poland). This lack of context is needed to impress the reader. Only the final part of the article explains "Reasons and justifications for the expulsions". Any text should have a beginning, main part and finish. Here we have main part and only later comes the beginning. American readers know very little about war in Eastern Europe and this article hardly helps them to understand. Xx236 ( talk) 12:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) causing resentment towards German-speakers in general - the main source of the resentment was German administration, law, police rather than local Germans. Xx236 ( talk) 11:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
If you read the first few paragraphs, the WWII and nazi context is very much there. However, how much and what context is appropriate is open to debate. Some might argue that Versailles needs to be included - it undoubtably promoted the rise of nazism. For Wikipedia it is better to focus on the actual subject of a page, providing only short introductions on the background, which can be followed on other Wikipedia pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 ( talk) 15:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The statement is false - Slavs (Czechs from Lower Silesia, Sorbs from Eastern Lusatia, Slowinzen, Silesians, some Kashubians, Masurians and Warmiaks) were among the refugees. So no single population. Some Germans had mixed roots, eg. Peter Glotz had Czech mother. Xx236 ( talk) 10:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, loyalty to a nation would be a better fit. Between Germans and Poles, for example, the divide was not as sharp as many believe (or the nazis liked). There were areas whose protestant inhabitants had Polish surnames but German first names, who spoke Polish at home and in casual conversations but German at more formal occasions, and who were loyal to Germany - and thus got expelled, too. Over the centuries, many protestant Poles and Lithuanians re-settled to protestant Prussia for their religious affiliation, which meant more to them than their ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.106.109.24 ( talk) 20:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
For germans wikipedia uses population transfer and expulsion yet for other nationalities it uses ethnic cleansing (see rwanda genocide).The definition of ethnic cleansing is: eth·nic cleans·ing-The mass expulsion or killing of members of an ethnic or religious group in a society.If millions of Germans were murdered and expelled after the war because of their nationality then it would make sense to use "ethnic cleansing of Germans" as the Lead for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookft ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Please don't use the vague " militia" describing Poland. Milicja Obywatelska was planned to be a higly centralized Communist police, see also Militsiya. Xx236 ( talk) 07:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Other terror organisations were Internal Security Corps and Ministry of Public Security (Poland). Xx236 ( talk) 08:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The statement "The West German Red Cross also estimated 110,000 German civilians were held as forced labor in Kaliningrad Oblast, where 50,000 were dead or missing." doesn't probably belong to the Poland section. Does the source state that the Germans came from Poland or were they local? Xx236 ( talk) 09:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
This article describes crimes against Germans out of the context of post-WWII situation. Please remeber that Thomas Urban is a journalist and Zaremba is a professional historian. Post-war Poland was a terrible place for anyone, not only for Germans. The current form of the article misinforms Western readers. Xx236 ( talk) 07:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC) The German book [8] describes the situation in Wrocław. Xx236 ( talk) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
This is your original research. If the above points were correct the Polish population would have a similar high mortality in 1945-46, however that is not the case. The Polish mortality rate in 1946 was 1.1% compared to the 1939 figure of 1.37%. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis of published material that advances a position
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 08:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
http://rcin.org.pl/Content/2425/WA51_13508_r2005-nr5_Monografie.pdf pages 177 and 178 explains the miracle of law mortality after the war - lack of reliable data. Xx236 ( talk) 13:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Zaremba is a self published page on the internet, not a reliable source-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports your assertion-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Also the web page you cite does not mention the expulsion of the Germans, you are attempting a synthesis of published material to advance your POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello, did you ever see the actual book and read the section about the expulsion of Germans? If you did please tell us the citation that supports your assertion-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.cesky-dialog.net/clanek/4813-cesky-koutek-v-kladsku/
I will try to get to library this week to verify source Wielka trwoga. Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports this edit
in addition to similar acts by Soviet soldiers and criminal gangs grouping Poles, Soviet marauders, Germans and Ukrainians, that were neither prevented nor prosecuted by the newly organised Milicja Obywatelska and judiciary, who weren't also able to defend Polish civilians.
When the page citation is provided I will verify what is claimed in the edit. put up or shut up [13]-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Frida Lyngstad is probably the only war child known internationally. There are some activists in Norway. Xx236 ( talk) 07:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
The article should inform about German Nazi crimes in the area, including the Holocaust, which made post-war coexistence with Germans difficult or impossible. Now the article accuses nationalists. The main nationalists were German ones. Xx236 ( talk) 06:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC) Soviets, who designed and implemented the expulsions were quite internationalistic. Xx236 ( talk) 07:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
If you actually read the article, you will find that the word nationalist is used only in the context of ethnic Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 ( talk) 15:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
As long as there is a constant finger-pointing at Germans you can´t get a reliable source. Such articles are useless and a waste of time.-- 85.181.52.175 ( talk) 11:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Please explain the meaning of the phrase. I believe it's too general if not false. The Red Army supported sometimes Germans against other ethnicities. The Soviets murdered or imprisoned non-Germans Augustów roundup. Xx236 ( talk) 09:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
It's German nationalistic propaganda:
Xx236 ( talk) 14:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
We cannot compare the two historical episodes. The Soviet wartime evacuations were temporary, the population returned after the war. The German expulsions were permanent.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 18:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
German population transfer isn't permenant. As citizens of EU any Germans that are still alive and that lived in these territories can return to Czech Republic or Poland as there is a free movement of people in EU. Of course I am sure that if for example any of the 1 million Nazi administrators and colonists included in figures of expelled that are still alive would like to reveal themselves to either countries authorities, said authorities would be very interested.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Evacuation and Survival in the Soviet Union at War Rebecca Manley Cornell University Press
Winner of the 2010 Bruce Lincoln Book Prize given by the Association for Slavic, East European, and Eurasian Studies (ASEEES)
(...)brilliantly reconstructs the evacuation of over sixteen million Soviet civilians in one of the most dramatic episodes of World War II.
Dear Experts, please respect facts and human tragedies. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello: If you write about the largest transfer ouside the SU, you should also consider the case of Poland and surf the web for sources. This is Wikipedia my original research never hits this talk page.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:11, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
German authorities say always "Flucht und Vertreibung" (flight and expulsion) [14], so not in the expulsions but in the flights and expulsions. Xx236 ( talk) 07:48, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I think if we would look at the percentage of population the movement of Jews for extermination by Nazi Germany would be larger than the movement of Germans for new life in Germany.Does anyone know the percentage of European Jews that was ethnically cleansed for murder by German state in WW2? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
People who run away or were expelled weren't of single ethnicity. Ségolène Plyer Paris I (Panthéon-Sorbonne) - Humboldt-Universität (Berlin)“A village divided - Integration of Sudetan Germans in Eastern and Western Germany 1945 - 1989“ "The folk groups from the East and those in the West German territory were presented as being from the same family. The fact that these particularities were often signs of cultural cross-pollination with the Slav neighbours was left unspoken." [15] Xx236 ( talk) 09:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC) There existed also nationally mixed families among the Germans, especially the ones with a German husband/father. Xx236 ( talk) 09:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
what page in Douglas?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
One text written by Bernd Faulenbach isn't an official statement of the Agency. Bernd Faulenbach has never worked for the Agency. Xx236 ( talk) 14:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If "The extent of German farmer settlement up to the 14th century. The map also shows German city foundations" so why not a map of Nazi camps ? It was also the background. I don't see however any serious map of Nazi camps in Eastern Germany, see List of subcamps of Gross-Rosen. Xx236 ( talk) 08:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I am currently reading Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte by Hans Henning Hahn and Eva Hahnova. The arguments outlined in the book will go a long way to improve this article. The authors are telling a German audience that they have been subjected to a stream of hysterical German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions. The Hahn's have analyzed the accounts published in postwar West Germany pointing out that they are are ahistorical propaganda and that the topic of the expulsions needs to be subject to a critical reevaluation. They make a convincing argument that needs to be outlined on this page. Once I finish the book I hope to include their arguments in this article. German is not my mother tounge so it is a slow but I must say very interesting read. I strongly urge persons who read German to get the book. Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte is an important book that needs to be outlined for English readers who have been fed a diet of regurgitated postwar West German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions e.g. A Terrible Revenge.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
It is one person's opinion. The author is known for promoting the notion that most of the uncomfortable historical truths are myths. This article is already so full of nonsense and falsehoods that it is farcical. It's just another wikipedia soapbox for a propaganda viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.14 ( talk) 23:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It would seem that it is without legal foundation to expell long domiciled people from an area which had recently come under internationally approved "temporary administration". For example, a "temporary administration" could be pending a final Peace Treaty and Border adjustment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 ( talk) 13:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
An exception might be the Soviet "temporary administered" northern part of the former German province of East Prussia (which BTW was in that status for 45 years, from August, 1945 to Sept. 12, 1990 when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed). There was nothing in the Potsdam Agreement about Soviet expulsion of ethnic Germans other than what could be made out of the following words: "The United States and Britain declared that they would support the transfer of Königsberg and the adjacent area to the Soviet Union at the peace conference." Note: the referenced peace conference occurred 45 years later as the Two-Plus-Four Treaty of September 12, 1990. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 ( talk) 13:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not the right place to present your opinions. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
O.K., per International Law, the Soviet Union and Poland operated as "Temporary Administrators" of the German lands within Germany's 1937 internationally recognized borders East of the Oder-Western Neisse Line from the end date of the Potsdam Conference (August 2, 1945) until 45 years later when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed on Sept. 12, 1990. That's not an opinion -- that's a FACT.
According to the article Czech resistance was destroied by the Nazis, so who planned the expulsion of Germans? Xx236 ( talk) 07:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Sir, this talk page is not a blog about the topic. Post only suggestions for changes to the article that are supported by reliable sources and can be verified. You are advised to read
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources as a guide. Your personel comments may be deleted from this page. --
Woogie10w (
talk)
11:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The lead summarises the article rather than presents unsourced or biased views. Xx236 ( talk) 07:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The former Austria-Hungary wasn't a part of Germany. Xx236 ( talk) 13:32, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
The Nazis transferred many Germans before the 1944 period. It seems sensible to include a section on those transfers. They may be seen as a kind of intermediate between flight and expulsions.
Imersion ( talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The article uses a lower bound of 500,000 but in the very next line suggests 473,000. OK, that may be an upward rounding but seems inappropriate in the context. In Fact, Hahn and Hahn in their excellent 2010 summary suggest a lower bound of 400,000, and that seems more appropriate. If no one objects, I will change the number within a month.
Imersion ( talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
This is not correct, you need to cite the page in Hahn and Hahn that support the figure of "400,000"-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The figure of "400,000" comes from the 1974 German Archives study for the Oder-Neisse region only. The Hahn's cite this figure on page 723-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
"Volksdeutsche" combines the Nazi, racist ideology of "Blut and Boden" and a common German race to replace "Ausland Deutsche". If it is to be used, this racist innuendo in the term needs to be explained, but it is better not to use it at all. The better German term is, as in English, "ethnische Deutsche".
Imersion ( talk) 15:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your point, the term "Volksdeutsche" reaaly needs to be explained and then replaced with ethnic German. As an editor I never use this description-- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Whoever listed her as Hahnova knows more about her ethnicity than I do, perhaps, but the reference is wrong, and I have changed it.
Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern : Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte / Eva Hahn, Hans Henning Hahn. Paderborn : Schöningh, c2010.
839 p. : ill., maps ; 24 cm. D820.P72 G475 2010 ISBN: 9783506770448 -- 3506770446
Imersion ( talk) 15:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
BTW I have the book also-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
who on their way to post-war Germany - doesn't the phrase suggest that the victims died post-war? The majority of them died during the war. Is it possible to travel to post-war land before its borders had been defined? Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC) The numbers of victims include Germans who died when travelling to the East, the article doesn't cover such returns. Xx236 ( talk) 08:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Women who married Germans were expelled from Norway to Germany after the war [19]. In Poland and Czechoslovakia mixed marriages were expelled when the husband was German, German wives were allowed to stay. So the ethnicity wasn't in-born. Xx236 ( talk) 11:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
The area of the flight and expulsion is generally the area of the Holocaust and many expelled Germans had participated in the Holocaust. The Holocaust is mentioned later in the article, too late to understand the context. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49 (wrong title, many camps were situated outside Germany) were a part of the Soviet structure, many prisoners were transported to the SU and died there or returned after several years. Xx236 ( talk) 08:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The recent tags
![]() |
![]() | This page may be
too long to read and navigate comfortably. (December 2014) |
Lets discuss these points or else remove them. It is not fair to tag the article and run if you have issues with it's content-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I want to remove them in future unless you can specifically outline the changes that you want to make. What are the sections that you would like to remove? Please identify the unavoidable POV and non-neutral language rather than make a blanket statement. Lets make an effort to improve the article. What do you propose?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:28, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
The statement is false. According to de:Schwarzmeerdeutsche the evacuation started in the 1943. Xx234 ( talk) 10:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
i found this article http://www.rense.com/general85/mill.htm
and has references to a then banned book on allied atrocities way beyond current official death and casualty tolls that rivalize the jewish hollocaust itself. One book is "Gruesome Harvest" by Ralph Franklin Keeling.
I know it could be exagerated, but, if somebody read this article or the whole book, should contribute to wikipedia expanding this article. vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/KEELINGgruesom.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.224.109.135 ( talk) 03:01, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Endphaseverbrechen belong (at least partially) to the Flight of Germans. Not even mentioned in this article. Xx234 ( talk) 08:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC) Typische Täter waren Angehörige staatlicher Organe und nationalsozialistischer Organisationen wie Gestapo, SS sowie der Wehrmacht, nach Blatmans zusammenfassender Studie oft Zivilisten aus HJ, Volkssturm, Wachmänner irgendwelcher Herkunft und auch unorganisierte Bürger. - the German Wikipedia describes who committed Nazi crimes in 1945 - please compare with biased/simplified civilians and soldiers. Xx234 ( talk) 08:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The autochtones were frequently bilingual, speaking Slavic at home. They preferred German organization, so they voted for Germany and later emigrated, but their German ethnicity was frequently rejected in Germany, the same like expelled Poles were unpopular in Poland. A specific problem were German wives of Poles. Xx236 ( talk) 06:15, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
What do Polish sources tell us about the fate of these people from 1948-1956?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 19:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Please remember that the majority of citizens of "People's Republic of Poland" was persecuted 1948-1956: peasants, former landowners and capitalists, former officers and policemen, even communists including Władysław Gomółka. The source 2 describes the conflict in Opole Silesia between locals and newcomers. Xx236 ( talk) 06:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Who joined the Volksliste. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The problem has been presented and sourced in several articles here. Maybe a little linking would be helpul, but this article is big (243,632 bytes), so I'm not sure if any longer presentation is needed.
Polish 3,086,489 5.48% (a figure that rises to over 6% when including the related Kashubian and Masurian languages).
Do not allow further additions without accompanying citations, and begin to address the many strong statements that still appear without citations, 15 of which are marked by citation needed tags (several since December 2014). The existence of these, and the strength of the un-sourced statements, even if the material proves accurate, requires an article and inline tags, until the sources appear. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 21:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Current title: Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50)
Proposed title: Flight and expulsion of Germans
Reason: Dating of such event is highly debatable. Expulsion of Germans was only once in history, no need to add after/during/etc. World War 2.
Ernio48 (
talk)
23:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Wasserstein describes the crisis European Refugee Movements After World War Two. The Flight and expulsion of Germans is a part of it, a nationalistic POV, part of cold war, rather than academic description. It's interesting if Leprof understands that his statement is true both for Germans and for all refugees. The difference was that the Germans arrived into their land (at least Western Germany) and Soviet citizens were frequently imprisoned and send to Gulag camps. Xx236 ( talk) 12:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
composed mainly of historians with Nazi backgrounds - the subject is explained in Schieder commission. So please don't threaten with removal but copy the references. Xx236 ( talk) 12:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
The long-term goal of Nazi Germany was to Germanize or eradicate the population of Poland, Czechoslovakia and certain western parts of the Soviet Union. -the next phrase is Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost. Not enough? Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
de:Wilfried Krallert doesn't say anything about formal rehabilitation. He was POW 1945-1949, bur he wasn't accused. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Germany expelled non-Germans from the Sudetenland. From Sudetenland the Jews living in the Sudetenland were widely persecuted. Czech people were able to emigrate or to stay, I don't know the numbers. However, what the article doesn't say, thousands of German anti-Nazis run away. Xx236 ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not able to verify his 2007 text but his 2011 text [20] is about European Refugee Movements After World War Two, not about Germans only. Xx236 ( talk) 12:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC) See also the lead of this page: In the period 1944-1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 13:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
RE:
During the war the long-term goal of Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost was to exterminate between 45-70 million "non-Germanizable" people in Poland, Czechoslovakia and the western parts of the Soviet Union. [1]
I don't see how this has any bearing on the paragraph that this sentence was in. What does this have to do with the expulsions of the Germans after the war? There is no revenge factor or any other reason explained for how this relates. Headtransplant ( talk) 21:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
References
Xx236 ( talk) 14:11, 5 November 2015 (UTC) :
This article is a result of many discussions. Please don't impose your POV. Xx236 ( talk) 06:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
The edits are controversial, both here and in another Nazi-related articles. Xx236 ( talk) 06:50, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
German Wikipedia says deutschsprachige Bewohner (German speaking). Formally the Nazi period life was considered, e.g. the Volksdeutsch class joined. Language and family were also important. In many cases reach people who declared to be Polish were expelled and their farms robbed, which wasn't legal but possible in the post-war chaos. Xx236 ( talk) 06:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
deutschsprachige Bewohner means German speaking resident, that means anyone who speaks German. For example my American ancestors living in Pennsylvania in 1776 could read the Declaration of Independance [21], -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Transit No 23 [22], contains articles about ethnic cleansings.
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, later German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement defined Western border of the SU. It was the basis of the post-war borders of Poland, not the opinions of London. Poland had to obtain some former German land to settle the Polish refugees from the East. Poland was the only Allied nation which lost its land as the result of WWII, about 80 000 km2. Xx236 ( talk) 08:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Moreover, in the Opole (Oppeln) region It's true that the Opole region has the majority of Germans in Poland, but the page German minority in Poland shows also Silesian Voivodeship, Warmia and Masuria. Xx236 ( talk) 09:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
31,923 Germans were transported to the SU according to the Order 7161. Here comes the text of the order [23]. Only Deportation of Germans from Romania after World War II links the article about the order. Xx236 ( talk) 11:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Even a quick glance at the state this article is in shows that it's probably not worth reading. The article looks like a landfil. Please see my comment at Talk:Flight and evacuation of Germans during the end of World War II#Merge or refactor about the possible best course of action. Content needs to be moved. We should have two separate articles of similar length instead of this one dumping ground. One of our articles should be devoted to war years (ending with the defeat of Nazi Germany), and a separate article should be devoted to postwar years (starting with the defeat of Nazi Germany) in 1945 whereas, the transfer of population was to a greater extend forced upon the Germans by the Allies. Poeticbent talk 17:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
You believe that the article is not worth reading, yet it had over 7,700 page views in the past 30 days. The best possible course of action is to improve it with reliable sources. The recent study by Hahn and Hahn as well as most German sources treat the flight and expulsions as part of the same topic-- Woogie10w ( talk) 23:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
"Hahn und Hahn stellen selbst den Begriff “Vertreibung” in Frage, seien doch nur 4,8 Millionen Deutsche wirklich von den Alliierten vertrieben worden."[24]. Erika Steinbach and Peter Glotz refurbished the post-Nazi narration using human rights language. Historically the first German propaganda books (by Jürgen Thorwald) described the flight (poorly organised by the Nazis) and Soviet crimes (some of the alleged crimes were in reality standard Soviet war actions, the Soviets didn't care about their civilians in the same way). As far as I remember Thorwald mentions the evacuation of the prisoners and forced workers, which in a strange way later perished. This article doesn't mention e.g. the Massacre of Palmnicken/ Yantarny, which was a part of the evacuation.
Just to be clear. My proposal (from above) is to rebuilt from scratch three articles about three different subjects:
These subjects are most emphatically separate from each other, divided by a major historical event itself, the German Instrument of Surrender in 1945. There would be no need to spell out "flight" in the new layout, because it would have been a tautology. Poeticbent talk 19:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Now 277, name "uncharter" defined multiple times with different content. Xx236 ( talk) 07:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
What does it mean? The Western Allied govs or in post-war Germany? Xx236 ( talk) 09:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
We have discussed several times that the population wasn't single ethnic. What is your definition of ethnicity including Sas population from Rumania, Slavic Warmiaks, Masurians, Kashubians, Sorbs and East-Obersilesians? Xx236 ( talk) 10:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
The same references are repeated, e.g. Thomas Urban, ref. 122-124. I believe that the same reference can be used several times. Xx236 ( talk) 07:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 07:59, 29 December 2015 (UTC) An editor removes informations about Nazi Generalplan Ost (811 bytes), because of a wrong URL. There are several less radical ways - e.g. correcting the URL or finding another one. Xx236 ( talk) 08:19, 29 December 2015 (UTC) Please don't decide what is inapropriate. Xx236 ( talk) 10:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
This article doesn't discuss NKVD special camps (which existed also outside Germany). Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
At this diff I have rewritten the contentious paragraph. It includes almost all of the information inserted by Xx236 but I hope may be more acceptable to Kevjonesin and indeed to any other readers. I hope this helps, at least in offering a comprehensible text for discussion. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Richard Keatinge the expulsions did not reverse Plan Ost, in fact this plan was never implemented. The expelled Germans had lived in Eastern Europe for generations. The Sudtenland was German speaking for generations prior to the war. Germans had lived side by side with the Poles, just as the Welsh and English live in Wales. The war crimes of the Nazis made the position of these ethnic Germans untenable and they were expelled by an outraged local population in 1945-50.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:26, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC references
Sonnenburg concentration camp - 30/31 January 1945 - 819 prisoners murdered, 150 run West together with guards and their families. Xx236 ( talk) 11:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Hilgruber's opinion was biased:
Regarding second half of the second paragraph of lede as of RfC posting; (was third paragraph prior to recent edits; see history):
The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations in postwar Europe.
-- Kevjonesin ( talk) 15:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: At present this RfC seeks comment and discussion, not support/oppose !votes. A '!vote' 'survey' may be held later in a following related RfC if such seems needed for further clarification.
Please prefix your response with: • Comment: and then follow with replies to any or all of the inquiries above.
Please start threads with • Comment, Question, Suggestion, Etc.: as you see fit below.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations of postwar Europe. Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe.
[...] During the Cold War, the West German government also counted as expellees 1 million foreign colonists settled in territories conquered by Nazi Germany. After the war which?, under the "Big Plan", Generalplan Ost [ sic] foresaw the removal of 31 million "racially undesirable" people from Central and Eastern Europe, 100% of Jews, Poles (85%), Belorussians (75%) and Ukrainians (65%), to West Siberia, [1], [2] [ sic] The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations. [3] Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe. [4]
"At Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II#Use in sources, I have shown that the present nomenclature at least for that article follows the use in sources, and thus is perfectly NPOV and follows the naming guidelines, which in return are based on community consensus. This cannot be overruled by a RM vote.
"Some of the titles which are to be unitized are titles of different hierarchy levels of articles concerned with distinct features of a population transfer, and that must not be unitized, but need to be kept distinctive. For example Evacuation of East Prussia is a sub-article of Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II, which in turn is a sub-article of Expulsion of Germans, which in turn is or used to be a sub-article of German exodus from Eastern Europe."
The word displacements has been recently replaced by removals. I'm not a native speaker so I'm not able to decide, but do refugees remove themselves? Their removal was decided later in Potsdam. Xx236 ( talk) 09:42, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
The three words may decribe the same groups, some unification is needed. Xx236 ( talk) 13:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Not only R.M. Douglas, it's a part of popular culture in Poland, compare Prawo i pięść the 1964 movie. The situation in Soviet occupied Poland was difficult, see M. Zaremba, Wielka trwoga [31], Augustów roundup. Xx236 ( talk) 05:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Category:Refugees of World War II in Germany includes non-German refugees. Either the link should be changed or the difference should be explained. Xx236 ( talk) 08:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 11:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
This does not parse as English:
Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, with the majority of which including ethnic Germans ('Volksdeutsche') as well as German citizens ('Reichsdeutsche') were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
I think what is meant is one of the following, but they are very different statements:
Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – the majority of whom were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) or German citizens ([Reichsdeutsche] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (
help)) – were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
or
Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – including most of the ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) and German citizens ([Reichsdeutsche] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (
help)) in the region – were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
Someone with the sources on hand is going to need to check this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
In the "Human losses" section, one sentence has ten (!) citations added to it, as does a sentence in the "Discourse" sub-section. There are several other sentences in the article like this. I'm curious to know the thought process behind whomever left those 10th citations. ("Man, nine citations just doesn't cut it - we need TEN!") While it's certainly good to have statements evidenced by sources, you don't need to literally add every single article you've ever seen on the topic to this page. 2602:306:CFEA:170:D64:2589:C3A0:83FA ( talk) 05:59, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 |
In the flight, war and expulsions. There was a war in 1945, guns, bombs, tanks, sunking ships. Xx236 ( talk) 10:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
LeMO: Lebendiges Museum Online. Berlin has spoken, the case is closed. Berlin hat gesprochen, der Fall ist beendet. Xx236 ( talk) 11:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
You miss the point, there are two sides of the argument. As editors of Wikipedia we must present both sides, not the position that fits our POV. It is importrant to remember that many reliable sources in English stiil use this figure of 2 million. We can't ignore these sources, they are a reality.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Since February 2012: "The lead section of this article may need to be rewritten. Please discuss this issue on the talk page and read the layout guide to make sure the section will be inclusive of all essential details." Xx236 ( talk) 05:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see anything like this in the quoted Ingo Haar's article. Xx236 ( talk) 08:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
In regard to two recent reverts:
Additionally, the Rubinstein's "Genocide, a history" ref also does not provide page numbers and is unavailable online for a verifiability check. Volunteer Marek 05:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
In regard to continued edit warring:
Volunteer Marek 05:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand Danish but the article says about German children in Denmark, Norway and Holland: http://www.b.dk/boeger/database-over-danske-tyskerboern
Maybe the information dispersed in the article should be integrated? Xx236 ( talk) 09:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Friedrich Nietzsche Xx236 ( talk) 07:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Germany created the Foundation and the Foundation created the project of the Museum. It's the recent German opinion. Not Nawratil, not Erika Steinbach. Xx236 ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Rossevelt and Churchill allowed Stalin to occupy Poland during the Yalta Conference, but the London government didn't have any meaning since the Katyn massacre discovery and gen. Sikorski's death. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I made a series of edits to the lede to reflect the current position of the German government that the Nazi era war crimes motivated the Allies to expel the Germans. [6] Es wurde schlimm, und es wurde schwer, Gott zu verstehen. Getrieben durch Hitlers Wahn vom "Lebensraum im Osten" begann Deutschland einen Krieg, dessen Ziel die ethnische Neuordnung weiter Teile Osteuropas durch Vertreibung, Umsiedlung, Deportation, Vernichtung und Germanisierung war. Millionen von Menschen fielen diesem Wahn zum Opfer. Allein über eine Million Polen wurden von Deutschen deportiert und vertrieben. Fünf bis sechs Millionen polnische Staatsbürger kamen unter der deutschen Besatzung ums Leben, davon drei Millionen Juden. Note well that this is in stark contrast to the cold war position in West Germany that refused to link the war crimes of Nazi Germany to the expulsions.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Summarizing - Poles were expelled and murdered and Mr Köhler who replaced the racially lower Skierbieszów people tells stories about the cruelty of "The Expulsion". Xx236 ( talk) 13:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't from be better? Xx236 ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The article doesn't inform about many aspects of the legacy:
and while fascinated by it, am a little . . .. disgruntled that there are no references anywhere in the first several paragraphs. I know how difficult it is to go back and add those, and I have no inclination to put citation needed tags all over the place, but is a reference per paragraph asking too much? Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 19:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
http://jch.sagepub.com/content/40/3/483
The article describes situation in Western Germany, however the same hatred to German masters was created everywhere. Xx236 ( talk) 11:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain the context - German genocide, national policy, forced migrations, extermination of social leaders and of educated people (eg. in Poland). This lack of context is needed to impress the reader. Only the final part of the article explains "Reasons and justifications for the expulsions". Any text should have a beginning, main part and finish. Here we have main part and only later comes the beginning. American readers know very little about war in Eastern Europe and this article hardly helps them to understand. Xx236 ( talk) 12:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) causing resentment towards German-speakers in general - the main source of the resentment was German administration, law, police rather than local Germans. Xx236 ( talk) 11:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
If you read the first few paragraphs, the WWII and nazi context is very much there. However, how much and what context is appropriate is open to debate. Some might argue that Versailles needs to be included - it undoubtably promoted the rise of nazism. For Wikipedia it is better to focus on the actual subject of a page, providing only short introductions on the background, which can be followed on other Wikipedia pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 ( talk) 15:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The statement is false - Slavs (Czechs from Lower Silesia, Sorbs from Eastern Lusatia, Slowinzen, Silesians, some Kashubians, Masurians and Warmiaks) were among the refugees. So no single population. Some Germans had mixed roots, eg. Peter Glotz had Czech mother. Xx236 ( talk) 10:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, loyalty to a nation would be a better fit. Between Germans and Poles, for example, the divide was not as sharp as many believe (or the nazis liked). There were areas whose protestant inhabitants had Polish surnames but German first names, who spoke Polish at home and in casual conversations but German at more formal occasions, and who were loyal to Germany - and thus got expelled, too. Over the centuries, many protestant Poles and Lithuanians re-settled to protestant Prussia for their religious affiliation, which meant more to them than their ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.106.109.24 ( talk) 20:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
For germans wikipedia uses population transfer and expulsion yet for other nationalities it uses ethnic cleansing (see rwanda genocide).The definition of ethnic cleansing is: eth·nic cleans·ing-The mass expulsion or killing of members of an ethnic or religious group in a society.If millions of Germans were murdered and expelled after the war because of their nationality then it would make sense to use "ethnic cleansing of Germans" as the Lead for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookft ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Please don't use the vague " militia" describing Poland. Milicja Obywatelska was planned to be a higly centralized Communist police, see also Militsiya. Xx236 ( talk) 07:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Other terror organisations were Internal Security Corps and Ministry of Public Security (Poland). Xx236 ( talk) 08:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The statement "The West German Red Cross also estimated 110,000 German civilians were held as forced labor in Kaliningrad Oblast, where 50,000 were dead or missing." doesn't probably belong to the Poland section. Does the source state that the Germans came from Poland or were they local? Xx236 ( talk) 09:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
This article describes crimes against Germans out of the context of post-WWII situation. Please remeber that Thomas Urban is a journalist and Zaremba is a professional historian. Post-war Poland was a terrible place for anyone, not only for Germans. The current form of the article misinforms Western readers. Xx236 ( talk) 07:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC) The German book [8] describes the situation in Wrocław. Xx236 ( talk) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
This is your original research. If the above points were correct the Polish population would have a similar high mortality in 1945-46, however that is not the case. The Polish mortality rate in 1946 was 1.1% compared to the 1939 figure of 1.37%. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis of published material that advances a position
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 08:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
http://rcin.org.pl/Content/2425/WA51_13508_r2005-nr5_Monografie.pdf pages 177 and 178 explains the miracle of law mortality after the war - lack of reliable data. Xx236 ( talk) 13:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Zaremba is a self published page on the internet, not a reliable source-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports your assertion-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Also the web page you cite does not mention the expulsion of the Germans, you are attempting a synthesis of published material to advance your POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello, did you ever see the actual book and read the section about the expulsion of Germans? If you did please tell us the citation that supports your assertion-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.cesky-dialog.net/clanek/4813-cesky-koutek-v-kladsku/
I will try to get to library this week to verify source Wielka trwoga. Please tell us what pages of Wielka trwoga supports this edit
in addition to similar acts by Soviet soldiers and criminal gangs grouping Poles, Soviet marauders, Germans and Ukrainians, that were neither prevented nor prosecuted by the newly organised Milicja Obywatelska and judiciary, who weren't also able to defend Polish civilians.
When the page citation is provided I will verify what is claimed in the edit. put up or shut up [13]-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Frida Lyngstad is probably the only war child known internationally. There are some activists in Norway. Xx236 ( talk) 07:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
The article should inform about German Nazi crimes in the area, including the Holocaust, which made post-war coexistence with Germans difficult or impossible. Now the article accuses nationalists. The main nationalists were German ones. Xx236 ( talk) 06:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC) Soviets, who designed and implemented the expulsions were quite internationalistic. Xx236 ( talk) 07:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
If you actually read the article, you will find that the word nationalist is used only in the context of ethnic Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 ( talk) 15:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
As long as there is a constant finger-pointing at Germans you can´t get a reliable source. Such articles are useless and a waste of time.-- 85.181.52.175 ( talk) 11:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Please explain the meaning of the phrase. I believe it's too general if not false. The Red Army supported sometimes Germans against other ethnicities. The Soviets murdered or imprisoned non-Germans Augustów roundup. Xx236 ( talk) 09:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
It's German nationalistic propaganda:
Xx236 ( talk) 14:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
We cannot compare the two historical episodes. The Soviet wartime evacuations were temporary, the population returned after the war. The German expulsions were permanent.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 18:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
German population transfer isn't permenant. As citizens of EU any Germans that are still alive and that lived in these territories can return to Czech Republic or Poland as there is a free movement of people in EU. Of course I am sure that if for example any of the 1 million Nazi administrators and colonists included in figures of expelled that are still alive would like to reveal themselves to either countries authorities, said authorities would be very interested.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 00:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Evacuation and Survival in the Soviet Union at War Rebecca Manley Cornell University Press
Winner of the 2010 Bruce Lincoln Book Prize given by the Association for Slavic, East European, and Eurasian Studies (ASEEES)
(...)brilliantly reconstructs the evacuation of over sixteen million Soviet civilians in one of the most dramatic episodes of World War II.
Dear Experts, please respect facts and human tragedies. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello: If you write about the largest transfer ouside the SU, you should also consider the case of Poland and surf the web for sources. This is Wikipedia my original research never hits this talk page.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:11, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
German authorities say always "Flucht und Vertreibung" (flight and expulsion) [14], so not in the expulsions but in the flights and expulsions. Xx236 ( talk) 07:48, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I think if we would look at the percentage of population the movement of Jews for extermination by Nazi Germany would be larger than the movement of Germans for new life in Germany.Does anyone know the percentage of European Jews that was ethnically cleansed for murder by German state in WW2? -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
People who run away or were expelled weren't of single ethnicity. Ségolène Plyer Paris I (Panthéon-Sorbonne) - Humboldt-Universität (Berlin)“A village divided - Integration of Sudetan Germans in Eastern and Western Germany 1945 - 1989“ "The folk groups from the East and those in the West German territory were presented as being from the same family. The fact that these particularities were often signs of cultural cross-pollination with the Slav neighbours was left unspoken." [15] Xx236 ( talk) 09:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC) There existed also nationally mixed families among the Germans, especially the ones with a German husband/father. Xx236 ( talk) 09:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
what page in Douglas?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
One text written by Bernd Faulenbach isn't an official statement of the Agency. Bernd Faulenbach has never worked for the Agency. Xx236 ( talk) 14:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If "The extent of German farmer settlement up to the 14th century. The map also shows German city foundations" so why not a map of Nazi camps ? It was also the background. I don't see however any serious map of Nazi camps in Eastern Germany, see List of subcamps of Gross-Rosen. Xx236 ( talk) 08:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I am currently reading Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte by Hans Henning Hahn and Eva Hahnova. The arguments outlined in the book will go a long way to improve this article. The authors are telling a German audience that they have been subjected to a stream of hysterical German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions. The Hahn's have analyzed the accounts published in postwar West Germany pointing out that they are are ahistorical propaganda and that the topic of the expulsions needs to be subject to a critical reevaluation. They make a convincing argument that needs to be outlined on this page. Once I finish the book I hope to include their arguments in this article. German is not my mother tounge so it is a slow but I must say very interesting read. I strongly urge persons who read German to get the book. Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte is an important book that needs to be outlined for English readers who have been fed a diet of regurgitated postwar West German nationalist propaganda regarding the expulsions e.g. A Terrible Revenge.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
It is one person's opinion. The author is known for promoting the notion that most of the uncomfortable historical truths are myths. This article is already so full of nonsense and falsehoods that it is farcical. It's just another wikipedia soapbox for a propaganda viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.14 ( talk) 23:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It would seem that it is without legal foundation to expell long domiciled people from an area which had recently come under internationally approved "temporary administration". For example, a "temporary administration" could be pending a final Peace Treaty and Border adjustment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 ( talk) 13:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
An exception might be the Soviet "temporary administered" northern part of the former German province of East Prussia (which BTW was in that status for 45 years, from August, 1945 to Sept. 12, 1990 when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed). There was nothing in the Potsdam Agreement about Soviet expulsion of ethnic Germans other than what could be made out of the following words: "The United States and Britain declared that they would support the transfer of Königsberg and the adjacent area to the Soviet Union at the peace conference." Note: the referenced peace conference occurred 45 years later as the Two-Plus-Four Treaty of September 12, 1990. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.251.253 ( talk) 13:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not the right place to present your opinions. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
O.K., per International Law, the Soviet Union and Poland operated as "Temporary Administrators" of the German lands within Germany's 1937 internationally recognized borders East of the Oder-Western Neisse Line from the end date of the Potsdam Conference (August 2, 1945) until 45 years later when the Two-Plus-Four Peace Treaty was signed on Sept. 12, 1990. That's not an opinion -- that's a FACT.
According to the article Czech resistance was destroied by the Nazis, so who planned the expulsion of Germans? Xx236 ( talk) 07:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Sir, this talk page is not a blog about the topic. Post only suggestions for changes to the article that are supported by reliable sources and can be verified. You are advised to read
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources as a guide. Your personel comments may be deleted from this page. --
Woogie10w (
talk)
11:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The lead summarises the article rather than presents unsourced or biased views. Xx236 ( talk) 07:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The former Austria-Hungary wasn't a part of Germany. Xx236 ( talk) 13:32, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
The Nazis transferred many Germans before the 1944 period. It seems sensible to include a section on those transfers. They may be seen as a kind of intermediate between flight and expulsions.
Imersion ( talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The article uses a lower bound of 500,000 but in the very next line suggests 473,000. OK, that may be an upward rounding but seems inappropriate in the context. In Fact, Hahn and Hahn in their excellent 2010 summary suggest a lower bound of 400,000, and that seems more appropriate. If no one objects, I will change the number within a month.
Imersion ( talk) 15:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
This is not correct, you need to cite the page in Hahn and Hahn that support the figure of "400,000"-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The figure of "400,000" comes from the 1974 German Archives study for the Oder-Neisse region only. The Hahn's cite this figure on page 723-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
"Volksdeutsche" combines the Nazi, racist ideology of "Blut and Boden" and a common German race to replace "Ausland Deutsche". If it is to be used, this racist innuendo in the term needs to be explained, but it is better not to use it at all. The better German term is, as in English, "ethnische Deutsche".
Imersion ( talk) 15:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your point, the term "Volksdeutsche" reaaly needs to be explained and then replaced with ethnic German. As an editor I never use this description-- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Whoever listed her as Hahnova knows more about her ethnicity than I do, perhaps, but the reference is wrong, and I have changed it.
Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern : Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte / Eva Hahn, Hans Henning Hahn. Paderborn : Schöningh, c2010.
839 p. : ill., maps ; 24 cm. D820.P72 G475 2010 ISBN: 9783506770448 -- 3506770446
Imersion ( talk) 15:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
BTW I have the book also-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
who on their way to post-war Germany - doesn't the phrase suggest that the victims died post-war? The majority of them died during the war. Is it possible to travel to post-war land before its borders had been defined? Xx236 ( talk) 08:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC) The numbers of victims include Germans who died when travelling to the East, the article doesn't cover such returns. Xx236 ( talk) 08:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Women who married Germans were expelled from Norway to Germany after the war [19]. In Poland and Czechoslovakia mixed marriages were expelled when the husband was German, German wives were allowed to stay. So the ethnicity wasn't in-born. Xx236 ( talk) 11:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
The area of the flight and expulsion is generally the area of the Holocaust and many expelled Germans had participated in the Holocaust. The Holocaust is mentioned later in the article, too late to understand the context. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49 (wrong title, many camps were situated outside Germany) were a part of the Soviet structure, many prisoners were transported to the SU and died there or returned after several years. Xx236 ( talk) 08:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The recent tags
![]() |
![]() | This page may be
too long to read and navigate comfortably. (December 2014) |
Lets discuss these points or else remove them. It is not fair to tag the article and run if you have issues with it's content-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I want to remove them in future unless you can specifically outline the changes that you want to make. What are the sections that you would like to remove? Please identify the unavoidable POV and non-neutral language rather than make a blanket statement. Lets make an effort to improve the article. What do you propose?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:28, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
The statement is false. According to de:Schwarzmeerdeutsche the evacuation started in the 1943. Xx234 ( talk) 10:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
i found this article http://www.rense.com/general85/mill.htm
and has references to a then banned book on allied atrocities way beyond current official death and casualty tolls that rivalize the jewish hollocaust itself. One book is "Gruesome Harvest" by Ralph Franklin Keeling.
I know it could be exagerated, but, if somebody read this article or the whole book, should contribute to wikipedia expanding this article. vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/KEELINGgruesom.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.224.109.135 ( talk) 03:01, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Endphaseverbrechen belong (at least partially) to the Flight of Germans. Not even mentioned in this article. Xx234 ( talk) 08:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC) Typische Täter waren Angehörige staatlicher Organe und nationalsozialistischer Organisationen wie Gestapo, SS sowie der Wehrmacht, nach Blatmans zusammenfassender Studie oft Zivilisten aus HJ, Volkssturm, Wachmänner irgendwelcher Herkunft und auch unorganisierte Bürger. - the German Wikipedia describes who committed Nazi crimes in 1945 - please compare with biased/simplified civilians and soldiers. Xx234 ( talk) 08:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The autochtones were frequently bilingual, speaking Slavic at home. They preferred German organization, so they voted for Germany and later emigrated, but their German ethnicity was frequently rejected in Germany, the same like expelled Poles were unpopular in Poland. A specific problem were German wives of Poles. Xx236 ( talk) 06:15, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
What do Polish sources tell us about the fate of these people from 1948-1956?-- Woogie10w ( talk) 19:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Please remember that the majority of citizens of "People's Republic of Poland" was persecuted 1948-1956: peasants, former landowners and capitalists, former officers and policemen, even communists including Władysław Gomółka. The source 2 describes the conflict in Opole Silesia between locals and newcomers. Xx236 ( talk) 06:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Who joined the Volksliste. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The problem has been presented and sourced in several articles here. Maybe a little linking would be helpul, but this article is big (243,632 bytes), so I'm not sure if any longer presentation is needed.
Polish 3,086,489 5.48% (a figure that rises to over 6% when including the related Kashubian and Masurian languages).
Do not allow further additions without accompanying citations, and begin to address the many strong statements that still appear without citations, 15 of which are marked by citation needed tags (several since December 2014). The existence of these, and the strength of the un-sourced statements, even if the material proves accurate, requires an article and inline tags, until the sources appear. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 21:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Current title: Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50)
Proposed title: Flight and expulsion of Germans
Reason: Dating of such event is highly debatable. Expulsion of Germans was only once in history, no need to add after/during/etc. World War 2.
Ernio48 (
talk)
23:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Wasserstein describes the crisis European Refugee Movements After World War Two. The Flight and expulsion of Germans is a part of it, a nationalistic POV, part of cold war, rather than academic description. It's interesting if Leprof understands that his statement is true both for Germans and for all refugees. The difference was that the Germans arrived into their land (at least Western Germany) and Soviet citizens were frequently imprisoned and send to Gulag camps. Xx236 ( talk) 12:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
composed mainly of historians with Nazi backgrounds - the subject is explained in Schieder commission. So please don't threaten with removal but copy the references. Xx236 ( talk) 12:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
The long-term goal of Nazi Germany was to Germanize or eradicate the population of Poland, Czechoslovakia and certain western parts of the Soviet Union. -the next phrase is Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost. Not enough? Xx236 ( talk) 13:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
de:Wilfried Krallert doesn't say anything about formal rehabilitation. He was POW 1945-1949, bur he wasn't accused. Xx236 ( talk) 13:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Germany expelled non-Germans from the Sudetenland. From Sudetenland the Jews living in the Sudetenland were widely persecuted. Czech people were able to emigrate or to stay, I don't know the numbers. However, what the article doesn't say, thousands of German anti-Nazis run away. Xx236 ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not able to verify his 2007 text but his 2011 text [20] is about European Refugee Movements After World War Two, not about Germans only. Xx236 ( talk) 12:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC) See also the lead of this page: In the period 1944-1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe. Xx236 ( talk) 13:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
RE:
During the war the long-term goal of Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost was to exterminate between 45-70 million "non-Germanizable" people in Poland, Czechoslovakia and the western parts of the Soviet Union. [1]
I don't see how this has any bearing on the paragraph that this sentence was in. What does this have to do with the expulsions of the Germans after the war? There is no revenge factor or any other reason explained for how this relates. Headtransplant ( talk) 21:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
References
Xx236 ( talk) 14:11, 5 November 2015 (UTC) :
This article is a result of many discussions. Please don't impose your POV. Xx236 ( talk) 06:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
The edits are controversial, both here and in another Nazi-related articles. Xx236 ( talk) 06:50, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
German Wikipedia says deutschsprachige Bewohner (German speaking). Formally the Nazi period life was considered, e.g. the Volksdeutsch class joined. Language and family were also important. In many cases reach people who declared to be Polish were expelled and their farms robbed, which wasn't legal but possible in the post-war chaos. Xx236 ( talk) 06:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
deutschsprachige Bewohner means German speaking resident, that means anyone who speaks German. For example my American ancestors living in Pennsylvania in 1776 could read the Declaration of Independance [21], -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Transit No 23 [22], contains articles about ethnic cleansings.
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, later German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement defined Western border of the SU. It was the basis of the post-war borders of Poland, not the opinions of London. Poland had to obtain some former German land to settle the Polish refugees from the East. Poland was the only Allied nation which lost its land as the result of WWII, about 80 000 km2. Xx236 ( talk) 08:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Moreover, in the Opole (Oppeln) region It's true that the Opole region has the majority of Germans in Poland, but the page German minority in Poland shows also Silesian Voivodeship, Warmia and Masuria. Xx236 ( talk) 09:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 07:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
31,923 Germans were transported to the SU according to the Order 7161. Here comes the text of the order [23]. Only Deportation of Germans from Romania after World War II links the article about the order. Xx236 ( talk) 11:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Even a quick glance at the state this article is in shows that it's probably not worth reading. The article looks like a landfil. Please see my comment at Talk:Flight and evacuation of Germans during the end of World War II#Merge or refactor about the possible best course of action. Content needs to be moved. We should have two separate articles of similar length instead of this one dumping ground. One of our articles should be devoted to war years (ending with the defeat of Nazi Germany), and a separate article should be devoted to postwar years (starting with the defeat of Nazi Germany) in 1945 whereas, the transfer of population was to a greater extend forced upon the Germans by the Allies. Poeticbent talk 17:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
You believe that the article is not worth reading, yet it had over 7,700 page views in the past 30 days. The best possible course of action is to improve it with reliable sources. The recent study by Hahn and Hahn as well as most German sources treat the flight and expulsions as part of the same topic-- Woogie10w ( talk) 23:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
"Hahn und Hahn stellen selbst den Begriff “Vertreibung” in Frage, seien doch nur 4,8 Millionen Deutsche wirklich von den Alliierten vertrieben worden."[24]. Erika Steinbach and Peter Glotz refurbished the post-Nazi narration using human rights language. Historically the first German propaganda books (by Jürgen Thorwald) described the flight (poorly organised by the Nazis) and Soviet crimes (some of the alleged crimes were in reality standard Soviet war actions, the Soviets didn't care about their civilians in the same way). As far as I remember Thorwald mentions the evacuation of the prisoners and forced workers, which in a strange way later perished. This article doesn't mention e.g. the Massacre of Palmnicken/ Yantarny, which was a part of the evacuation.
Just to be clear. My proposal (from above) is to rebuilt from scratch three articles about three different subjects:
These subjects are most emphatically separate from each other, divided by a major historical event itself, the German Instrument of Surrender in 1945. There would be no need to spell out "flight" in the new layout, because it would have been a tautology. Poeticbent talk 19:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Now 277, name "uncharter" defined multiple times with different content. Xx236 ( talk) 07:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
What does it mean? The Western Allied govs or in post-war Germany? Xx236 ( talk) 09:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
We have discussed several times that the population wasn't single ethnic. What is your definition of ethnicity including Sas population from Rumania, Slavic Warmiaks, Masurians, Kashubians, Sorbs and East-Obersilesians? Xx236 ( talk) 10:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
The same references are repeated, e.g. Thomas Urban, ref. 122-124. I believe that the same reference can be used several times. Xx236 ( talk) 07:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 07:59, 29 December 2015 (UTC) An editor removes informations about Nazi Generalplan Ost (811 bytes), because of a wrong URL. There are several less radical ways - e.g. correcting the URL or finding another one. Xx236 ( talk) 08:19, 29 December 2015 (UTC) Please don't decide what is inapropriate. Xx236 ( talk) 10:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
This article doesn't discuss NKVD special camps (which existed also outside Germany). Xx236 ( talk) 08:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
At this diff I have rewritten the contentious paragraph. It includes almost all of the information inserted by Xx236 but I hope may be more acceptable to Kevjonesin and indeed to any other readers. I hope this helps, at least in offering a comprehensible text for discussion. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Richard Keatinge the expulsions did not reverse Plan Ost, in fact this plan was never implemented. The expelled Germans had lived in Eastern Europe for generations. The Sudtenland was German speaking for generations prior to the war. Germans had lived side by side with the Poles, just as the Welsh and English live in Wales. The war crimes of the Nazis made the position of these ethnic Germans untenable and they were expelled by an outraged local population in 1945-50.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:26, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC references
Sonnenburg concentration camp - 30/31 January 1945 - 819 prisoners murdered, 150 run West together with guards and their families. Xx236 ( talk) 11:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Hilgruber's opinion was biased:
Regarding second half of the second paragraph of lede as of RfC posting; (was third paragraph prior to recent edits; see history):
The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations in postwar Europe.
-- Kevjonesin ( talk) 15:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: At present this RfC seeks comment and discussion, not support/oppose !votes. A '!vote' 'survey' may be held later in a following related RfC if such seems needed for further clarification.
Please prefix your response with: • Comment: and then follow with replies to any or all of the inquiries above.
Please start threads with • Comment, Question, Suggestion, Etc.: as you see fit below.
The post-war expulsions of the Germans took place amongst other geopolitical and ethnic reconfigurations of postwar Europe. Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe.
[...] During the Cold War, the West German government also counted as expellees 1 million foreign colonists settled in territories conquered by Nazi Germany. After the war which?, under the "Big Plan", Generalplan Ost [ sic] foresaw the removal of 31 million "racially undesirable" people from Central and Eastern Europe, 100% of Jews, Poles (85%), Belorussians (75%) and Ukrainians (65%), to West Siberia, [1], [2] [ sic] The post-war expulsions of the Germans were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe that attempted to create ethnically homogeneous nations. [3] Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, including ethnic Germans, were permanently or temporarily moved from Central and Eastern Europe. [4]
"At Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II#Use in sources, I have shown that the present nomenclature at least for that article follows the use in sources, and thus is perfectly NPOV and follows the naming guidelines, which in return are based on community consensus. This cannot be overruled by a RM vote.
"Some of the titles which are to be unitized are titles of different hierarchy levels of articles concerned with distinct features of a population transfer, and that must not be unitized, but need to be kept distinctive. For example Evacuation of East Prussia is a sub-article of Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II, which in turn is a sub-article of Expulsion of Germans, which in turn is or used to be a sub-article of German exodus from Eastern Europe."
The word displacements has been recently replaced by removals. I'm not a native speaker so I'm not able to decide, but do refugees remove themselves? Their removal was decided later in Potsdam. Xx236 ( talk) 09:42, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
The three words may decribe the same groups, some unification is needed. Xx236 ( talk) 13:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Not only R.M. Douglas, it's a part of popular culture in Poland, compare Prawo i pięść the 1964 movie. The situation in Soviet occupied Poland was difficult, see M. Zaremba, Wielka trwoga [31], Augustów roundup. Xx236 ( talk) 05:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Category:Refugees of World War II in Germany includes non-German refugees. Either the link should be changed or the difference should be explained. Xx236 ( talk) 08:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 11:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
This does not parse as English:
Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people, with the majority of which including ethnic Germans ('Volksdeutsche') as well as German citizens ('Reichsdeutsche') were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
I think what is meant is one of the following, but they are very different statements:
Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – the majority of whom were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) or German citizens ([Reichsdeutsche] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (
help)) – were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
or
Between 1944 and 1948, about 31 million people – including most of the ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) and German citizens ([Reichsdeutsche] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (
help)) in the region – were
ethnically cleansed from Central and Eastern Europe.
Someone with the sources on hand is going to need to check this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
In the "Human losses" section, one sentence has ten (!) citations added to it, as does a sentence in the "Discourse" sub-section. There are several other sentences in the article like this. I'm curious to know the thought process behind whomever left those 10th citations. ("Man, nine citations just doesn't cut it - we need TEN!") While it's certainly good to have statements evidenced by sources, you don't need to literally add every single article you've ever seen on the topic to this page. 2602:306:CFEA:170:D64:2589:C3A0:83FA ( talk) 05:59, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)