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Are you really sure that the flag of Alabama could be based on the Spaniard battalion's colours that bore a red Burgundian saltire? So far as I know Spain lost the one-time French Louisiana in 1801 -more or less-, and the flag of Alabama dates from 1895. There's a gap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 11:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The official flag is always a square! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.139.246.4 ( talk • contribs)
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The claim that the Washington Post article is a dead link, [1] [2] is mistaken. Two users: Desertambition and Toddy1 have confirmed that the link works for them. It is true that it cannot be accessed by the Wayback Machine webarchive. I think the Washington Post has blocked that archive.
I added an archive-url for the alabamaag.gov link.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:51, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's. The next statement:
consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacyrefers to Florida. ( Francis P. Fleming was governor of Florida.)
the red cross of the Alabama flag was designed to evoke the battle flag of the 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment used during the Civil War. Alabama is one of only a few states that incorporate confederate symbolism in their state flag.But I cannot see anything that supports that in the Washington Post article. So it fails verification.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
The red cross of the Alabama flag, adopted in 1895, was designed to evoke the battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil War. That's according to a written account of the flag's history given by the attorney general of Alabama in 1987."According to a written account" in 1987 that's mentioned in the article. Where is the word "definitive?" Nemov ( talk) 23:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the MOS:LEAD say that the flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag?
A: Yes, there is a general consensus among reliable sources that the state flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag and therefore this should be included in the lead.
B: No, there is disagreement over the origins of the state flag among reliable sources and therefore no mention of claimed Confederate (or Spanish, or other) origins or symbolism should be included in the lead
C: No, the state flag is based on the Spanish colonial flag; and therefore this Spanish origin should be included in the lead instead.
Desertambition ( talk) 21:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Spekkios, Nemov, North8000, Writethisway, and SMcCandlish: Rfc has been revised with input from the WP:TEAHOUSE. Hope this works better. Desertambition ( talk) 23:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Spekkios: @ Nemov: I have changed the rfc to only refer to article content. Does this satisfy you? Desertambition ( talk) 23:36, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I think that the question is clearly about article content. But IMO the clearly correct choice is not even listed as a choice and so IMO the RFC is very problematic. North8000 ( talk) 13:45, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
(Invited by the bot) Real feedback would require a deep dive into the sources. But I did read some of the provided ones. Amongst those, there were NO sources that said either. The sources just reported what people claimed or said, specified as such. And there are significant amounts of people saying both things. "A" and "C" state an origin in the voice of Wikipedia and are so are doubly unthinkable. The lead should be a summary of the the article and this question is a significant part of the article so totally leaving it out per "B" is not a good choice. "D" has several problems. One is using Wikipedia jargon "reliable sources"....the Wikipedia meaning of that term is different than the real world one. And the sources per the wiki term that I saw didn't say either.
Next, again, the sources (at least the ones I read) didn't say either, they merely reported what others said and specified/ attributed it as such. IMO you should cover the question with at least a few sentences in the lead. I don't know the topic well enough to recommend the wording, but something like "according to some sources, the flag was inspired or based on ........" "According to others it was inspired or based on.......". Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:14, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
the flag has no history woven into it." There are tons of flags that use the "St. Andrews Cross" that are not connected to the Confederacy. This source has a chance to connect it to the Confederacy and instead goes the opposite direction. Nemov ( talk) 19:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
the flag has no history woven into it.That source and quote cannot be ignored. I don't have anything further to add. The source speaks for itself. Nemov ( talk) 20:23, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Note: fixed header 💜
melecie
talk -
04:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm working on draft for the "inspiration of the flag" section. As I comb through it I have a question about this section:
Another remote, but possible inspiration was the flag carried by Co. "F", 7th Alabama Cavalry. The regiment was the only Alabama regiment in Rucker's Brigade, commanded by Col. Edmund Rucker of Tennessee (later Alabama), who became a prominent Birmingham businessman after the war. The flag of Rucker's brigade used a white background with a red saltire charged with 13 blue/green stars. This flag was given to Co. "F", 7th Alabama Cavalry by Rucker so that they might act as his Color Guard, and is held by the Alabama Department of Archives and History as part of its Alabama Civil War Period Flag Collection. [1] But the flag carried by Co. F 7th Alabama was not an Alabama flag, it was the flag made for Rucker's Brigade a month before the 7th joined his brigade; the 7th was color party only after September 24, 1864. A bunting flag that exists, in the white and red configuration with 13 blue stars, is not believed to be Alabama-associated, but rather to be tied to Rucker's Brigade, as well.
Is there another source that ties this specifically to the origins of the Alabama flag? I reviewed the source [5] and unless I'm missing something there's nothing in the source that specifically ties this to the state flag of Alabama.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nemov ( talk • contribs) 00:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
StellarNerd reverted my updated caption almost immediately after I posted it. The reasoning is More neutral. If Washington Post says it, then it is undoubtedly true
, but that doesn't really make sense. I'm not sure you read my update to the caption.
Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Believed by many to be the inspiration for the Alabama state flag, including the Washington Post, Denver Post, Huffington Post, and academic Stanley A Hutson.
Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Sources have said the Saint Andrews Cross was meant to preserve some of the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag
The caption is a summary of what is already included in the article (including the Washington Post). It's WP:OR to speculate what those publications "believe." They simply have reported on the topic. I'm restoring my updated caption. Please find some support before making further reverts. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 18:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've updated the summary with the new research that came up during discussion. Thanks for everyone's contributions. The heart of the disagreement was whether the origins of the flag belong in the lead. I go back and forth on this because it's still not 100% clear if the flag was inspired by the confederacy. I'm not sure I trust someone who was a member of the Daughters of the Confederacy. During that period they saw the confederacy in everything. Even so, there's plenty of coverage about it. Anyway, I'd say no for now, but my mind could change if there's more evidence that comes to light. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 13:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but some sources believe the design was intended to commemorate the Confederacy.Nemov ( talk) 20:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but there are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the Confederacy.
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but there are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the ConfederacyNemov ( talk) 04:41, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
"There are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the Confederacy, but no legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag."I think there's more work to be done on it, but is that at least an incremental improvement? Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 17:46, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
The 1906 New York Times/Birmingham Age-Herald source says "The flag in question has no history woven into it." The way the article is currently using the source is as evidence that the flag was not inspired by the Confederate battle flag. Specifically, the status quo is "another newspaper stating the flag had no historical connections". If that's not meant to imply a lack of Confederate influence, it needs rewriting or placement elsewhere.
I think we should remove the claim entirely. We're stretching the limits of acceptable interpretation, when a more reasonable interpretation is just "This flag hasn't been used for very long." It can't mean that there were no historical influences, as it acknowledges the influence of St. Andrew. We also shouldn't be referring to the source as "at the time of the flag's adoption" when it was published more than ten years later. I know there was prior discussion about this above, but I figured we could use a dedicated section. Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 04:43, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
"analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources". Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 04:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser published an article that advocated for increased public display of the state flag due to its Confederate symbolism, saying "No Alabamian will love it the less because it is evidently a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".Desertambition ( talk) 16:06, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser published an article that advocated for increased public display of the state flag due to its Confederate symbolism, saying "No Alabamian will love it the less because it is evidently a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser reported the flag was "a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".
advocated for increased public displayisn't relevant for this article. What justifies its inclusion? The relevant part of the source is the connection to the battle flag. I fail to understand how it's "more accurate" or "precise." It's just longer. What specifically is missing from my suggestion that's helpful? Nemov ( talk) 22:26, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Are you really sure that the flag of Alabama could be based on the Spaniard battalion's colours that bore a red Burgundian saltire? So far as I know Spain lost the one-time French Louisiana in 1801 -more or less-, and the flag of Alabama dates from 1895. There's a gap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 ( talk) 11:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The official flag is always a square! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.139.246.4 ( talk • contribs)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The claim that the Washington Post article is a dead link, [1] [2] is mistaken. Two users: Desertambition and Toddy1 have confirmed that the link works for them. It is true that it cannot be accessed by the Wayback Machine webarchive. I think the Washington Post has blocked that archive.
I added an archive-url for the alabamaag.gov link.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:51, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's. The next statement:
consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacyrefers to Florida. ( Francis P. Fleming was governor of Florida.)
the red cross of the Alabama flag was designed to evoke the battle flag of the 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment used during the Civil War. Alabama is one of only a few states that incorporate confederate symbolism in their state flag.But I cannot see anything that supports that in the Washington Post article. So it fails verification.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
The red cross of the Alabama flag, adopted in 1895, was designed to evoke the battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil War. That's according to a written account of the flag's history given by the attorney general of Alabama in 1987."According to a written account" in 1987 that's mentioned in the article. Where is the word "definitive?" Nemov ( talk) 23:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the MOS:LEAD say that the flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag?
A: Yes, there is a general consensus among reliable sources that the state flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag and therefore this should be included in the lead.
B: No, there is disagreement over the origins of the state flag among reliable sources and therefore no mention of claimed Confederate (or Spanish, or other) origins or symbolism should be included in the lead
C: No, the state flag is based on the Spanish colonial flag; and therefore this Spanish origin should be included in the lead instead.
Desertambition ( talk) 21:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Spekkios, Nemov, North8000, Writethisway, and SMcCandlish: Rfc has been revised with input from the WP:TEAHOUSE. Hope this works better. Desertambition ( talk) 23:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Spekkios: @ Nemov: I have changed the rfc to only refer to article content. Does this satisfy you? Desertambition ( talk) 23:36, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I think that the question is clearly about article content. But IMO the clearly correct choice is not even listed as a choice and so IMO the RFC is very problematic. North8000 ( talk) 13:45, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
(Invited by the bot) Real feedback would require a deep dive into the sources. But I did read some of the provided ones. Amongst those, there were NO sources that said either. The sources just reported what people claimed or said, specified as such. And there are significant amounts of people saying both things. "A" and "C" state an origin in the voice of Wikipedia and are so are doubly unthinkable. The lead should be a summary of the the article and this question is a significant part of the article so totally leaving it out per "B" is not a good choice. "D" has several problems. One is using Wikipedia jargon "reliable sources"....the Wikipedia meaning of that term is different than the real world one. And the sources per the wiki term that I saw didn't say either.
Next, again, the sources (at least the ones I read) didn't say either, they merely reported what others said and specified/ attributed it as such. IMO you should cover the question with at least a few sentences in the lead. I don't know the topic well enough to recommend the wording, but something like "according to some sources, the flag was inspired or based on ........" "According to others it was inspired or based on.......". Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:14, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
the flag has no history woven into it." There are tons of flags that use the "St. Andrews Cross" that are not connected to the Confederacy. This source has a chance to connect it to the Confederacy and instead goes the opposite direction. Nemov ( talk) 19:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
the flag has no history woven into it.That source and quote cannot be ignored. I don't have anything further to add. The source speaks for itself. Nemov ( talk) 20:23, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Note: fixed header 💜
melecie
talk -
04:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm working on draft for the "inspiration of the flag" section. As I comb through it I have a question about this section:
Another remote, but possible inspiration was the flag carried by Co. "F", 7th Alabama Cavalry. The regiment was the only Alabama regiment in Rucker's Brigade, commanded by Col. Edmund Rucker of Tennessee (later Alabama), who became a prominent Birmingham businessman after the war. The flag of Rucker's brigade used a white background with a red saltire charged with 13 blue/green stars. This flag was given to Co. "F", 7th Alabama Cavalry by Rucker so that they might act as his Color Guard, and is held by the Alabama Department of Archives and History as part of its Alabama Civil War Period Flag Collection. [1] But the flag carried by Co. F 7th Alabama was not an Alabama flag, it was the flag made for Rucker's Brigade a month before the 7th joined his brigade; the 7th was color party only after September 24, 1864. A bunting flag that exists, in the white and red configuration with 13 blue stars, is not believed to be Alabama-associated, but rather to be tied to Rucker's Brigade, as well.
Is there another source that ties this specifically to the origins of the Alabama flag? I reviewed the source [5] and unless I'm missing something there's nothing in the source that specifically ties this to the state flag of Alabama.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nemov ( talk • contribs) 00:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
StellarNerd reverted my updated caption almost immediately after I posted it. The reasoning is More neutral. If Washington Post says it, then it is undoubtedly true
, but that doesn't really make sense. I'm not sure you read my update to the caption.
Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Believed by many to be the inspiration for the Alabama state flag, including the Washington Post, Denver Post, Huffington Post, and academic Stanley A Hutson.
Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Sources have said the Saint Andrews Cross was meant to preserve some of the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag
The caption is a summary of what is already included in the article (including the Washington Post). It's WP:OR to speculate what those publications "believe." They simply have reported on the topic. I'm restoring my updated caption. Please find some support before making further reverts. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 18:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've updated the summary with the new research that came up during discussion. Thanks for everyone's contributions. The heart of the disagreement was whether the origins of the flag belong in the lead. I go back and forth on this because it's still not 100% clear if the flag was inspired by the confederacy. I'm not sure I trust someone who was a member of the Daughters of the Confederacy. During that period they saw the confederacy in everything. Even so, there's plenty of coverage about it. Anyway, I'd say no for now, but my mind could change if there's more evidence that comes to light. Thanks! Nemov ( talk) 13:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but some sources believe the design was intended to commemorate the Confederacy.Nemov ( talk) 20:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but there are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the Confederacy.
No legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag, but there are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the ConfederacyNemov ( talk) 04:41, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
"There are sources that believe the saltire was intended to memorialize the Confederacy, but no legislative records indicate the inspiration for the flag."I think there's more work to be done on it, but is that at least an incremental improvement? Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 17:46, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
The 1906 New York Times/Birmingham Age-Herald source says "The flag in question has no history woven into it." The way the article is currently using the source is as evidence that the flag was not inspired by the Confederate battle flag. Specifically, the status quo is "another newspaper stating the flag had no historical connections". If that's not meant to imply a lack of Confederate influence, it needs rewriting or placement elsewhere.
I think we should remove the claim entirely. We're stretching the limits of acceptable interpretation, when a more reasonable interpretation is just "This flag hasn't been used for very long." It can't mean that there were no historical influences, as it acknowledges the influence of St. Andrew. We also shouldn't be referring to the source as "at the time of the flag's adoption" when it was published more than ten years later. I know there was prior discussion about this above, but I figured we could use a dedicated section. Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 04:43, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
"analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources". Firefangledfeathers ( talk | contribs) 04:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser published an article that advocated for increased public display of the state flag due to its Confederate symbolism, saying "No Alabamian will love it the less because it is evidently a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".Desertambition ( talk) 16:06, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser published an article that advocated for increased public display of the state flag due to its Confederate symbolism, saying "No Alabamian will love it the less because it is evidently a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".
In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser reported the flag was "a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag". In 1906, the Birmingham Age-Herald published a piece that said the Alabama state flag "has no history woven into it".
advocated for increased public displayisn't relevant for this article. What justifies its inclusion? The relevant part of the source is the connection to the battle flag. I fail to understand how it's "more accurate" or "precise." It's just longer. What specifically is missing from my suggestion that's helpful? Nemov ( talk) 22:26, 9 April 2022 (UTC)