![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The result of the move request was: No move. Ucucha 05:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Five Constituencies Referendum →
Hong Kong legislative by-elections, 2010 — While the "Five Constituencies Resignation" (五區總辭) or "Five Constituencies Referendum" (五區公投) are popular terms for describing the LSD/CP plan, Wikipedia articles on elections are generally named for the actual event and the year, not the agenda of any particular participant. The
Canadian federal election, 1988 is not titled "Canadian Free Trade election," despite the FTA being the only politically significant issue in that vote.
The current name is definitely not NPOV as it accepts as official the LSD/CP position that the by-elections constitute a de facto plebiscite on the universal suffrage issue. There is no dispute that what will occur is a by-election to replace resigning LSD/CP LegCo members: the dispute lies in the significance of the election results. Kelvinc ( talk) 01:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.It is meant to be a defacto referendum, not a real referendum, yet. Should use the official name, which is Resignation. Arilang talk 20:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes it is very difficult to do a good, let alone perfect Chinese-English translation, more so obvious in this case. 起義, Uprising is just one of the many possible translations, because 義 has multiple meanings and usage. The pro-Beijing group's accusation against LSD's use of 起義, saying that LSD is advocating revolution and bloodshed is just low and pathetic. Arilang talk 06:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Another important topic seem to be missing in this article is the proposed abolishing of Functional constituency ? Arilang talk 07:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
“五區公投運動”前身是由立法會社會民主聯機和公民黨發起的“五區總辭、變相公投”運動,即每個選區由一名泛民主派議員辭職,其後再派人參與補選,填補空 缺,屆時會以“儘快實現雙普選及廢除(立法會)功能組別”為統一訴求,做到“投人等於投議題”的變相公投。中國港澳事務辦公室上周高調抨擊,嚴斥公投違反 《基本法》這香港小憲法,但兩黨昨天(周四)正式結成“公社聯盟”,正名為五區公投運動。
May be the article should be renamed Five Constituencies Referendum Movement ? Arilang talk 07:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources
Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material.
It's not explicitly prohibited (WP:YOUTUBE) but is not usually a good idea as you can easily run into copyright issues. Xenon54 / talk / 01:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
It's alright when the channel is an official channel, such as Hollywood Records (channel) or CNN (channel). However, videos uploaded by regular users are almost never appropriate, as ones of encyclopedic value are usually copyright violations. Liquidluck✽talk 02:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Would like to discuss with user:Gzdavidwong regarding the removal of links in Additional source section.
Arilang
talk
00:40, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I propose removing or relocating the last line of the introductory paragraph. There are only 5 geographical constituencies in HK, and there is one pan-democrat resigning from each of the constituencies. Therefore, there is no need to mention the name of all constituencies. Craddocktm ( talk) 17:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
At the moment this article is heavy biased towards the pro-Beijing POV. Reasons:
User Craddocktm, your reasonning clearly shows that you have not fully understood the true meaning of this "Five Constituencies Referendum ".
Please get your concepts right before making groundless accusations.
Please advance constructive comments on what to add and what not to add in the article. This is not a place for blogging of your personal views.
Please note the rules of Wikipedia. Especially Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Do not include personal opinion. Although I am a pro-democracy person myself, Wikipedia is not the place for personal opinion. What you and I think does not matter.
I am still of the opinion that 1,6 and 7 can be added, but 2,3,4 and 5 should not.
Also, you are quoting Joseph Sternberg way too much. He uses too many weasel words which must be avoided on Wikipedia. Also, do not write his name directly: Wikipedia should express various views of the public, not that of a particular journalist. Craddocktm ( talk) 17:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Looks like you do agree with most of my points, except this sentence:
The 五區公投、全民起義 slogan, was meant not only for the HK Chinese, it was also a hint for the 13 billions mainland Chinese.
OK, I shall withdraw this statement. And, what do you mean by this?
I am still of the opinion that 1,6 and 7 can be added, but 2,3,4 and 5 should not.
Points 2,3,4,5, they explain the background of the en-mass resignation, without them, everyday readers would never be able to understand the political motive of it all. Without points 2,3,4,5, added, readers can only see the tree, cannot see the whole forest. The ultimate goal of the very being of wikipedia, is to let readers, in future or present, to be able to see the full picture. Well, as full as possible. Arilang talk 21:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Arilang, if you can find sources to support the hint of the slogan, put it in. The DAB is still alot more civilised than the beijing central government. So people do expect a "real response" right before May election time. You can put anything into the article. But these party views doesn't matter much more than what's already here. Benjwong ( talk) 16:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
User Craddocktm, we have discussed the political situation, and the historical background of this by-election, fair enough.
But lets not forget, what do the HK people really think. Do they care? Would they come out and cast their vote? May be yes, may be no. This is really the million dollar question. There are at least two yardsticks that may be used: (1) 2010 Hong Kong new year march 30,000 march, was a clear show of force of HK people.(2) http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=312300407802 A Facebook "100,000 people do not like ###" political group was somehow deleted by Facebook, and then, within just a few days, tens of thousands of members ganged up again. Now, to call up 100,000 people to became member of a online group is another show of force. Arilang talk 11:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem is the next step. Most HK media has self-censored and avoid going any further to describe what happens if there is an election in 2012. Let's get to the point. "Liberate HK" does not sound like you want to be managed by beijing anymore. If that is the case, what is the next candidate supposed to do for the people? If an election is held and the vote goes to someone no different than a puppet-installed-candidate, then what is all this voting for?? Benjwong ( talk) 16:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
But then politic is such a complex and unpredictable thing, anything can happen between now and May 2010, there could be a strong sway of public opinion either way. Whatever happen, these five lawmakers will have their names etched into Hong Kong history. Arilang talk 22:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
李柱銘斥林瑞麟「不戰而勝」論,指保皇派避戰公投,政府出口術干擾選舉
Benjwong, well I do agree with all your points, beside this one:Beijing has an obligation to defend its territories (HK). It cannot afford to give the people any freedom. No, Beijing care more about it's own STABILITY(政權隐定) than anything else. In Beijing's mind, this HK five constitencies by-election is nothing, nothing in the sense that the end result(win or lose) would not affect much of the Legislative Council's politic. Beijing also care less about seven millions HK citizens, afterall, seven millions people, big deal, there are hundreds of mid-range mainland China cities that have seven millions people. What Beijing fear most is the effect on mainland Chinese, especially the slogan 五區公投、全民起義. Why? Communist came to power in 1949 on the propaganda and agitation of the revolution spirit of then mainland Chinese. They are afraid history might repeat again. This is the exact reason why the HK government join force with the pro-Beijing group, hand in hand, they are on the path to destroy this by-election, regardless, right under the gaze of international media, at the expanse of becoming the international laughing stock, and don't give a damn. Why? Like I said before, "阿爺吹雞,全部跪低".
Lets watch video again: 李柱銘斥林瑞麟「不戰而勝」論,指保皇派避戰公投,政府出口術干擾選舉 林瑞麟 represents HK government, in effect, the HK government is going to boycott a legal and legitimate, and government funded government election, it is absurdity to the extreme. Arilang talk 13:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
As far as the referendum affecting the mainland, 99 out of 100 people is not aware of the event. They are aware of Tibet and Taiwan's unhappiness. As far as HK goes, they are looking at Jackie Chan and if he seems happy, the rest of HK must be. About the joining hands part, I do not believe HK gov acts like idiots. Stephen Lam, Rita Fan etc has to speak for beijing. There is no way Wen Jiabao would speak to HK in that same manner for ten thousand reasons. The by-election looks to be held in May according to today's news. Benjwong ( talk) 17:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Craddock, while I understand your view, you are not telling it like it is. But is not your fault. Cause the sources are not telling it like it is either. I am well aware of neutral vs pro-beijing news. The definition of self-censor is a little different. Is like putting up news on Nina Wang at 1st, 2nd, 3rd... 15th and every other page. And spend a tiny blurp of info on the election. And the info looks so weak and non-reflective of society, no wonder recent surveys show people have little intention to vote. Tsang Hin-chi (曾憲梓) said the democrats showed desire to be independent. But why does he say it in such a way that the democrats appear like traitors? Why not point out all the other people who want citizenship changes. Wikipedia depend on sources, and the sources do not follow up. Mistrust is the root of the by-election (and 2012 election if it exist). Problem did not start yesterday. It started a long time ago. There is something wrong when PRC is supposed to be on an up-swing now, yet people are still leaving.
It is NOT hard to quantify. I suggest you look at the emigration statistics of:
Now I cannot deny PRC is working hard to improve itself. But all of the above are in large quantities. Pro-democrat camp has already answered. They are saying we need an election to fix society's problems. Pro-beijing camp needs to seriously answer this. They get paid a lot of money to boycott elections and hide problems. Benjwong ( talk) 16:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
There is an article on SCMP titled "Views on the big issue". I can literally copy paste it to an article such as Responses to Constituencies Reform. The contents is not controversial or original research at all. However I do not know of wikipedia's policy of copying an article directly, especially since that is a paid site. Benjwong ( talk) 00:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
最新最齊的社民連消息 Include OurTV HK video
林保華:中國鷹對香 港五區總辭 林保華 is a famous HK/Taiwan political commentator, can be another source. Arilang talk 06:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
中國政府的"敵我關係", Benjwong, is it possible to get them in text form? Arilang talk 06:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
一國兩制泡沫幻滅!共黨施壓facebook岌岌可危! Appledaily.com video on shut down of facebook group.
五區公投-建制縮頭派@大鳴大放--pt.1 五區公投-建制縮頭派@大鳴大放--pt.2 五區公投 建制縮頭派 大鳴大放 劉夢熊 梁家傑 Part 3
To user Craddocktm and Benjwong, I have listed six youtube video, by watching these six video, I sort of understand HK's complex political situation. Can these video be used as sources? If not, where to get them in text form? Arilang talk 07:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The result of the move request was: No move. Ucucha 05:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Five Constituencies Referendum →
Hong Kong legislative by-elections, 2010 — While the "Five Constituencies Resignation" (五區總辭) or "Five Constituencies Referendum" (五區公投) are popular terms for describing the LSD/CP plan, Wikipedia articles on elections are generally named for the actual event and the year, not the agenda of any particular participant. The
Canadian federal election, 1988 is not titled "Canadian Free Trade election," despite the FTA being the only politically significant issue in that vote.
The current name is definitely not NPOV as it accepts as official the LSD/CP position that the by-elections constitute a de facto plebiscite on the universal suffrage issue. There is no dispute that what will occur is a by-election to replace resigning LSD/CP LegCo members: the dispute lies in the significance of the election results. Kelvinc ( talk) 01:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.It is meant to be a defacto referendum, not a real referendum, yet. Should use the official name, which is Resignation. Arilang talk 20:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes it is very difficult to do a good, let alone perfect Chinese-English translation, more so obvious in this case. 起義, Uprising is just one of the many possible translations, because 義 has multiple meanings and usage. The pro-Beijing group's accusation against LSD's use of 起義, saying that LSD is advocating revolution and bloodshed is just low and pathetic. Arilang talk 06:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Another important topic seem to be missing in this article is the proposed abolishing of Functional constituency ? Arilang talk 07:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
“五區公投運動”前身是由立法會社會民主聯機和公民黨發起的“五區總辭、變相公投”運動,即每個選區由一名泛民主派議員辭職,其後再派人參與補選,填補空 缺,屆時會以“儘快實現雙普選及廢除(立法會)功能組別”為統一訴求,做到“投人等於投議題”的變相公投。中國港澳事務辦公室上周高調抨擊,嚴斥公投違反 《基本法》這香港小憲法,但兩黨昨天(周四)正式結成“公社聯盟”,正名為五區公投運動。
May be the article should be renamed Five Constituencies Referendum Movement ? Arilang talk 07:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources
Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material.
It's not explicitly prohibited (WP:YOUTUBE) but is not usually a good idea as you can easily run into copyright issues. Xenon54 / talk / 01:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
It's alright when the channel is an official channel, such as Hollywood Records (channel) or CNN (channel). However, videos uploaded by regular users are almost never appropriate, as ones of encyclopedic value are usually copyright violations. Liquidluck✽talk 02:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Would like to discuss with user:Gzdavidwong regarding the removal of links in Additional source section.
Arilang
talk
00:40, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I propose removing or relocating the last line of the introductory paragraph. There are only 5 geographical constituencies in HK, and there is one pan-democrat resigning from each of the constituencies. Therefore, there is no need to mention the name of all constituencies. Craddocktm ( talk) 17:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
At the moment this article is heavy biased towards the pro-Beijing POV. Reasons:
User Craddocktm, your reasonning clearly shows that you have not fully understood the true meaning of this "Five Constituencies Referendum ".
Please get your concepts right before making groundless accusations.
Please advance constructive comments on what to add and what not to add in the article. This is not a place for blogging of your personal views.
Please note the rules of Wikipedia. Especially Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Do not include personal opinion. Although I am a pro-democracy person myself, Wikipedia is not the place for personal opinion. What you and I think does not matter.
I am still of the opinion that 1,6 and 7 can be added, but 2,3,4 and 5 should not.
Also, you are quoting Joseph Sternberg way too much. He uses too many weasel words which must be avoided on Wikipedia. Also, do not write his name directly: Wikipedia should express various views of the public, not that of a particular journalist. Craddocktm ( talk) 17:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Looks like you do agree with most of my points, except this sentence:
The 五區公投、全民起義 slogan, was meant not only for the HK Chinese, it was also a hint for the 13 billions mainland Chinese.
OK, I shall withdraw this statement. And, what do you mean by this?
I am still of the opinion that 1,6 and 7 can be added, but 2,3,4 and 5 should not.
Points 2,3,4,5, they explain the background of the en-mass resignation, without them, everyday readers would never be able to understand the political motive of it all. Without points 2,3,4,5, added, readers can only see the tree, cannot see the whole forest. The ultimate goal of the very being of wikipedia, is to let readers, in future or present, to be able to see the full picture. Well, as full as possible. Arilang talk 21:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Arilang, if you can find sources to support the hint of the slogan, put it in. The DAB is still alot more civilised than the beijing central government. So people do expect a "real response" right before May election time. You can put anything into the article. But these party views doesn't matter much more than what's already here. Benjwong ( talk) 16:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
User Craddocktm, we have discussed the political situation, and the historical background of this by-election, fair enough.
But lets not forget, what do the HK people really think. Do they care? Would they come out and cast their vote? May be yes, may be no. This is really the million dollar question. There are at least two yardsticks that may be used: (1) 2010 Hong Kong new year march 30,000 march, was a clear show of force of HK people.(2) http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=312300407802 A Facebook "100,000 people do not like ###" political group was somehow deleted by Facebook, and then, within just a few days, tens of thousands of members ganged up again. Now, to call up 100,000 people to became member of a online group is another show of force. Arilang talk 11:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem is the next step. Most HK media has self-censored and avoid going any further to describe what happens if there is an election in 2012. Let's get to the point. "Liberate HK" does not sound like you want to be managed by beijing anymore. If that is the case, what is the next candidate supposed to do for the people? If an election is held and the vote goes to someone no different than a puppet-installed-candidate, then what is all this voting for?? Benjwong ( talk) 16:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
But then politic is such a complex and unpredictable thing, anything can happen between now and May 2010, there could be a strong sway of public opinion either way. Whatever happen, these five lawmakers will have their names etched into Hong Kong history. Arilang talk 22:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
李柱銘斥林瑞麟「不戰而勝」論,指保皇派避戰公投,政府出口術干擾選舉
Benjwong, well I do agree with all your points, beside this one:Beijing has an obligation to defend its territories (HK). It cannot afford to give the people any freedom. No, Beijing care more about it's own STABILITY(政權隐定) than anything else. In Beijing's mind, this HK five constitencies by-election is nothing, nothing in the sense that the end result(win or lose) would not affect much of the Legislative Council's politic. Beijing also care less about seven millions HK citizens, afterall, seven millions people, big deal, there are hundreds of mid-range mainland China cities that have seven millions people. What Beijing fear most is the effect on mainland Chinese, especially the slogan 五區公投、全民起義. Why? Communist came to power in 1949 on the propaganda and agitation of the revolution spirit of then mainland Chinese. They are afraid history might repeat again. This is the exact reason why the HK government join force with the pro-Beijing group, hand in hand, they are on the path to destroy this by-election, regardless, right under the gaze of international media, at the expanse of becoming the international laughing stock, and don't give a damn. Why? Like I said before, "阿爺吹雞,全部跪低".
Lets watch video again: 李柱銘斥林瑞麟「不戰而勝」論,指保皇派避戰公投,政府出口術干擾選舉 林瑞麟 represents HK government, in effect, the HK government is going to boycott a legal and legitimate, and government funded government election, it is absurdity to the extreme. Arilang talk 13:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
As far as the referendum affecting the mainland, 99 out of 100 people is not aware of the event. They are aware of Tibet and Taiwan's unhappiness. As far as HK goes, they are looking at Jackie Chan and if he seems happy, the rest of HK must be. About the joining hands part, I do not believe HK gov acts like idiots. Stephen Lam, Rita Fan etc has to speak for beijing. There is no way Wen Jiabao would speak to HK in that same manner for ten thousand reasons. The by-election looks to be held in May according to today's news. Benjwong ( talk) 17:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Craddock, while I understand your view, you are not telling it like it is. But is not your fault. Cause the sources are not telling it like it is either. I am well aware of neutral vs pro-beijing news. The definition of self-censor is a little different. Is like putting up news on Nina Wang at 1st, 2nd, 3rd... 15th and every other page. And spend a tiny blurp of info on the election. And the info looks so weak and non-reflective of society, no wonder recent surveys show people have little intention to vote. Tsang Hin-chi (曾憲梓) said the democrats showed desire to be independent. But why does he say it in such a way that the democrats appear like traitors? Why not point out all the other people who want citizenship changes. Wikipedia depend on sources, and the sources do not follow up. Mistrust is the root of the by-election (and 2012 election if it exist). Problem did not start yesterday. It started a long time ago. There is something wrong when PRC is supposed to be on an up-swing now, yet people are still leaving.
It is NOT hard to quantify. I suggest you look at the emigration statistics of:
Now I cannot deny PRC is working hard to improve itself. But all of the above are in large quantities. Pro-democrat camp has already answered. They are saying we need an election to fix society's problems. Pro-beijing camp needs to seriously answer this. They get paid a lot of money to boycott elections and hide problems. Benjwong ( talk) 16:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
There is an article on SCMP titled "Views on the big issue". I can literally copy paste it to an article such as Responses to Constituencies Reform. The contents is not controversial or original research at all. However I do not know of wikipedia's policy of copying an article directly, especially since that is a paid site. Benjwong ( talk) 00:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
最新最齊的社民連消息 Include OurTV HK video
林保華:中國鷹對香 港五區總辭 林保華 is a famous HK/Taiwan political commentator, can be another source. Arilang talk 06:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
中國政府的"敵我關係", Benjwong, is it possible to get them in text form? Arilang talk 06:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
一國兩制泡沫幻滅!共黨施壓facebook岌岌可危! Appledaily.com video on shut down of facebook group.
五區公投-建制縮頭派@大鳴大放--pt.1 五區公投-建制縮頭派@大鳴大放--pt.2 五區公投 建制縮頭派 大鳴大放 劉夢熊 梁家傑 Part 3
To user Craddocktm and Benjwong, I have listed six youtube video, by watching these six video, I sort of understand HK's complex political situation. Can these video be used as sources? If not, where to get them in text form? Arilang talk 07:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)