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Looking at SAFKA's webpage now, it is apparent that some change has taken place. The "new" SAFKA does not list Bäckman and his "hate group" (as this is called on the new SAFKA's webpage) as their members and does not endorse their views. This article should reflect this change; therefore I added an "update" tag. The webpage also claims that SAFKA is now registered. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Re Zuroff, look at [1]. Apparently, Bäckman wrote a very contorted letter to SWC, got back a form letter condemning Nazism as an ideology, and then performed synthesis to claim in his blog that SWC is supporting him. We'd need either SWC press release or an independent confirmation before claiming SWC is backing Safka regarding the seminar. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Considering that Bäckman's misrepresentation of Zuroff's position -- itself obtained by deception, as documented by Imbi Paju in the above-mentioned article -- may bring disrepute to Efraim Zuroff, an experienced hunter of Nazis and a living person, WP:BLP applies. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Reportedly, the University of Helsinki has made a statement asserting Bäckman's political views are his own and not the University's: [2]. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Offliner, how did you get here two hours after the article was created? Colchicum ( talk) 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the Committee's only websites are blogs: Leena Hietanen, Johan Bäckman, collective. Should we link some of them under External links? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
While this is not itself an WP:RS, Tundra Tabloid has a reasonable overview of the events, in English, at [3]. For understandable reasons, most of the news regarding Safka is in Finnish or Estonian, with occasional Russian and Swedish reports of larger activities. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
This "Committee" is a project of three persons (Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn). This is NOT a real organization. This article is under deletion in Finnish Wikipedia [4] and will probably be deleted by 30th March. Background: "Committee" was formed by Bäckman and his blog writings [5] [6] [7] [8]. Bäckman met a couple of same thinking persons (Hietanen, Krohn and later Tammi) and they decided to maximize their media coverage. This "Committee" is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Peltimikko ( talk) 19:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Based on the concerns mentioned above, I'm expressing my opposition to such a split. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I oppose such a split too, the individual members are simply not notable enough. The article is about the committee, not the individuals. Martintg ( talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The committee has not declared itself "neo-stalinist." The neo-stalinism claim is not a fact, but an opinion of one Estonian journalist. Also, it does not "specialize in justifying stalinism" - this again is only an opionion by an Estonian journalist. Offliner ( talk) 10:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Finnish Antifascist Committee's (SAFKA) position on Backman's "hate group": http://www.antifa.fi/2013/02/stalin-was-gentle-and-sweet.html So it is not just a few Estonian journalists that call this group "neo-stalinist". Anyone who calls Stalin "soft and sweet" etc is, by definition, a neo-stalinist. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Tammi is not a member of the committee, so please remove his name from the lead. Offliner ( talk) 10:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Tammi is not a member, and the most of the Finnish media didn't even published his anti-Estonian opinions in "Nashi-demonstration" in March 2009 in Helsinki. Tammi joined very late with his two friends to demonstration. News releases of demonstrations were writen/lead by Bäckman (in the name of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee) and they were signed by Bäckman, Hietanen and Krohn. ( [9] read: MANIFEST OF ANTIFASCISTS IN HELSINKI 23.03.2009) Peltimikko ( talk) 19:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed some speculations of Tammi. Tammi gave couple of interviews, claiming he was a former KGB agent. Nobody have not even taking these talks seriously. At least, I have not seen any articles where someone has actually investigated Tammi's claims. Tammi just wants his 15 minutes of fame (again). Peltimikko ( talk) 20:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Tammi is not a member of the committee, and as this is an article on the committee, his views are irrelevant here. It may be relevant however to an article relating to himself or his own organisation. -- Russavia Dialogue 14:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are some Russian language sources with translations:
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 05:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree, we need sections. There's a whole lot of tightly attributed text, and without subheadings, it's nearly unreadable. But I'm not yet sure of the appropriate way to chop up the original WallOfText. Let's discuss it here. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 10:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
One. He has said it himself, and considering the etymologies of the parts of his name, it's credible. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 15:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
It is clear that several Estonian nationalists are violating rules while editing this article - these violations have been reported to Wikipedia moderators. Interesting that strange accusations about "KGB-links", similars that are represented by dirt articles by notorious KAPO officer Andres Kahar in Estonian press, are repeated in this article. Abdullah Tammi has only himself claimed he was KGB-agent. There is no evidence about this. Probably Tammi made himself PR in this way. Underlining unexistent neo-nazi or KGB link is typical strategy of KAPO and their aids. This is reported to KAPO as well. Be careful! Follow the rules of WIikipedia! -- 91.152.84.165 ( talk) 19:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The claims made by the Estonian writers of this aricle are unbelievable. They claim all "publications" of the committee are published by a former KGB-agent. However, the committee has no publications, and there are obviously no sources for such publications. The source is Estonian yellow nespaper, which is very unreliable. Please find better criticism against this organisation, something else than "stalinism" and "neo-nazi" ties, and "KGB-ties". -- 91.152.84.165 ( talk) 19:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody is always returning claim that Safka is neo-stalinist. This has been only once presented in well-known fascist newspaper in Estonia. That is not enough to say the Safka has been labelled as neo-stalinist in the media. If one fascist says so, it is not enough. Please find more sources from "the media" which show Safka is neo-stalinist. Estonian fascist newspapers are not reliable source. -- 91.195.247.200 ( talk) 17:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the information on neo-Stalinism should be placed back there as the real Finnish antifascists themselves are calling this group neo-Stalinist. http://www.antifa.fi/2013/02/stalin-was-gentle-and-sweet.html As for calling a newspaper "fascist", you need some arguments to back your wild claim. You have none. Just claiming "fascist!" is not enough. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Would it be accurate to summarise in /* Manifests and declarations */ that most of the Committee's public statements discuss Estonia, its history, and its right to exist as a state? It seems excessive to just quote all the statements. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 12:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Eesti Ekspress' Christmas special, lampooning events of the year 2008 in [14], labels Bäckman and Hietanen "Finnish estophile dwarves" and has them sing "We're happy Stalinists". I'm not entirely sure, but I think the song is supposed to use the tune of " Hi ho, hi ho". Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The Category:Anti-fascist organizations is problematic in this article, as the Committee's understanding of fascism differs considerably from the common understanding. In such contexts, because category members can not be annotated in MediaWiki, the categorisation policy recommends against using categories, and that lists or naviboxes instead. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The currently cited source states, and I translate: "The so-called Finnish Antifascist Committee (SAFKA) consists of three members: Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn. They are joined by Abdullah (former Risto) Tammi, leader of the not yet created Finnish Islamic Party, who has publically admitted that for decades, he spied on Finnish religious movements as a KGB informant." Considering that the organisation is not officially registered, it does not have an official roster of membership -- we're stuck with what public sources say about its members. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
In his edits yesterday Digwuren ( talk · contribs) has removed attribution from several Estonian "neo-stalinist" style claims. (see [18] [19] [20] [21]) I strongly protest against these edits. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 00:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I started this at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2009 April 8#Template:Neo-Stalinism in 21st century but I am expanding it here because the search results are directly releted to this article.
Estonian sources are very usefull indeed! If I go to the Finnish language version of Google ( www.google.fi) and search for "Eesti Ekspress" – that is for the newspaper Eesti Ekspress – the first link I get is the this: Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus. Now does this mean we should include Estonia in the {{ Apartheid}} template or in the {{ Fascism}} template? Or maybe in both? -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 17:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The Estonian version of Google ( www.google.ee) does a better job. A search for "Eesti Ekspress" returns the home page of the newspaper as the No 1 result. Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus drops to result number 2. The opinion piece is almost a year old. I guess Estonians must be really mad by now, if they have been seeing this for the whole year, every time they search for their favorite newspaper.
On Google.com we are somewhat shielded from the "neo-Stalinist" propaganda. You have to click More results from www.ekspress.ee to see this as result number 8.
The relationship to this article is of course that the text has been written by two members of the Committee. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 19:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
We now have a tertiary source on the activities on SAFKA. The Finnish Embassy in Tallinn has issued a media review.
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 22:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the Estonian press is introducing new neologisms every week. This week Kaitsepolitsei has decided, that SAFKA members are not Neo-Stalinist but neo- Bolshevists. This can even be attributed to a "reliable source"; the EU Information Centre in Estonia, see Bäckman ja Hietanen kandideerivad europarlamenti.
Again, I have no idea what being a neo-Bolshevists implies. All Google can tell me is that Obama's dad was one. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Classifying the Committee as socialist implies it has policy ideas about economy or society. I'm not sure this applies; it's more of a like-and-dislike group, a pressure group. Is it appropriate to transfer Putin's socialist views to all pro-Putin groups? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 03:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Putin is not socialist, though he is etatist. SAFKA can indeed be characterised as a pressure group. -- Miacek (t) 12:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone should write an article on the proposed Russian Law on countermeasures against the rehabilitation of Nazism, Nazi criminals and their associates in former republics of the Soviet Union ( Russian: «О противодействии реабилитации в новых независимых государствах на территории бывшего Союза ССР нацизма, нацистских преступников и их пособников»). This may have some relationship with the subject of this article. I collected some references here. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Some more references:
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 02:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Pecularities of Finnish culture. Finns really like their personal space, and tend to prefer speaking on phone to speaking in person. Some people even speak about business meetings being conducted by two (or sometimes more) people meeting at a public place, shaking hands, exchanging calling cards, then moving slightly apart and calling each other via cellphone. It makes sense they would prefer blogging to public speaking. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 11:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
By the way, a list of public meetings registered with police of Tallinn can be seen at [24]. Among my favourites are the one that seeks to uncover cruelty against plants conducted by vegans, and the man who has registered two weeks of picketing from 00:00 to 24:00, adding that the picket will be carried through while lying on the ground. And apparently, in last November, somebody picketed against a new shape of dumplings. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 20:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned by the edits of 88.194.24.150. For example, what sources support calling SAFKA "radical"? As far as I know, their only similarity to classic radicalism is demonstrating pretty much everywhere, and holding unorthodox positions -- but typically, either vigorous defence of funny politics or violence are also required for radicalism. "The group has especially fought against rehabilitation of Nazi war crimes in Estonia and Latvia, being thus labeled as "pro-Putin"." smacks me as non sequitur, and might run awry of the WP:NOR policy. Finally, Mr. Iljaševitš is a resident of Republic of Estonia, which uses Latin alphabet for names of its citizens and residents; it would be pointless and potentially confusing to radically transform his name as the esteemed anonymous has done. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 11:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I hear SAFKA has sued The Soviet Story in several countries. What are Finnish laws regarding vexatious litigation? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 19:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
How about changing "The group has especially fought against rehabilitation of Nazi war crimes in Estonia and Latvia" to "the group claims especially to fight..." It could probably be sourced to their writings somewhere, but seems trivial? Also, you reverted all my other improvements as well, without explanation. Offliner ( talk) 01:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The connection to Tammi is indeed only "alleged." His only connection is that he took part in the same protest with SAFKA (for his own reasons.) He is not a member, and there is no proof of any further connections between them. There is also no reliable source confirming that he is a "former KGB affiliate." The only "proof" is that he claims so himself. Offliner ( talk) 01:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The notability of this article was questioned by an anonymous IP-editor from Finland with zero edits — no doubt guided here by the shock value of today's Sunday edition of Finland national newspaper Helsingin Sanomat.
The paper was in fact quite interesting; the main "news", covering two thirds of the front page and two pages in the Sunday "features"-section was a report on the visit of one member of the committee, Johan Bäckman to the Lake Seliger youth camp in Russia. Most shocking was of course the fact that Helsingin Sanomat broke the apartheid like ban on reporting on the activities of committee members imposed by — none other than the Finnish staff of the Information Ministry of the Islamic Caucasus Emirate, known locally as Kavkaz Center.
As to the notability question itself, important insight can be gained from the ANNUAL REVIEW of the SECURITY POLICE OF THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA for 2009. (I cannot find a link to this most recent edition, but here is a link to the 2008 review.) From multiple press reports on the review it seems that the Estonian Security Police ( KaPo) now consider the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee as the number one threat to Estonian state security. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 22:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
P.S. - In fact the Estonian language review for 2009 has appeared on the web, the PDF file is here. The activities of the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee are covered on pages 10 and 11, right after the presentation of the rank insignia of of the Security Police. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 23:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
It seems that something posted on the SAFKA web site and widely distributed by the Russian media has today led to the resignation of Ella Pamfilova from her post as chairman of the the Civil Society Institution and Human Rights Council of the Russian Federation. I have not yet read any of the Russian language news stories on the resignation, but as I understand it, she resigned as she felt she was not getting the support she needed while trying to protect Lyudmila Alexeyeva from being portrayed as a Nazi. The relevant Google news threads seem to be these two. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted labelling Nochnoy Dozor (group) as a Russian organisation. According to its article it is is a group of mostly Russophone political activists living in Estonia. The source for the sisterships actually is telling that the leader of Nochnoy Dozor Dmitri Linter was a host for the visit of all those people to Tallinn, Estonia. He lives in Estonia and AFAIK is an Estonian citizen. Quite possibly the group is financially supported from Russia and most of its members are Russophones but I do not think it can be labelled as a group from Russia. If you think it is important to emphasize the relations of the group (as well as all the other "anti-fascist sisters" to Russia (I am not sure it is worth it) it should be done in more correct way Alex Bakharev ( talk) 01:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
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Looking at SAFKA's webpage now, it is apparent that some change has taken place. The "new" SAFKA does not list Bäckman and his "hate group" (as this is called on the new SAFKA's webpage) as their members and does not endorse their views. This article should reflect this change; therefore I added an "update" tag. The webpage also claims that SAFKA is now registered. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Re Zuroff, look at [1]. Apparently, Bäckman wrote a very contorted letter to SWC, got back a form letter condemning Nazism as an ideology, and then performed synthesis to claim in his blog that SWC is supporting him. We'd need either SWC press release or an independent confirmation before claiming SWC is backing Safka regarding the seminar. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Considering that Bäckman's misrepresentation of Zuroff's position -- itself obtained by deception, as documented by Imbi Paju in the above-mentioned article -- may bring disrepute to Efraim Zuroff, an experienced hunter of Nazis and a living person, WP:BLP applies. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Reportedly, the University of Helsinki has made a statement asserting Bäckman's political views are his own and not the University's: [2]. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Offliner, how did you get here two hours after the article was created? Colchicum ( talk) 13:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the Committee's only websites are blogs: Leena Hietanen, Johan Bäckman, collective. Should we link some of them under External links? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
While this is not itself an WP:RS, Tundra Tabloid has a reasonable overview of the events, in English, at [3]. For understandable reasons, most of the news regarding Safka is in Finnish or Estonian, with occasional Russian and Swedish reports of larger activities. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
This "Committee" is a project of three persons (Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn). This is NOT a real organization. This article is under deletion in Finnish Wikipedia [4] and will probably be deleted by 30th March. Background: "Committee" was formed by Bäckman and his blog writings [5] [6] [7] [8]. Bäckman met a couple of same thinking persons (Hietanen, Krohn and later Tammi) and they decided to maximize their media coverage. This "Committee" is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Peltimikko ( talk) 19:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Based on the concerns mentioned above, I'm expressing my opposition to such a split. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I oppose such a split too, the individual members are simply not notable enough. The article is about the committee, not the individuals. Martintg ( talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The committee has not declared itself "neo-stalinist." The neo-stalinism claim is not a fact, but an opinion of one Estonian journalist. Also, it does not "specialize in justifying stalinism" - this again is only an opionion by an Estonian journalist. Offliner ( talk) 10:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The Finnish Antifascist Committee's (SAFKA) position on Backman's "hate group": http://www.antifa.fi/2013/02/stalin-was-gentle-and-sweet.html So it is not just a few Estonian journalists that call this group "neo-stalinist". Anyone who calls Stalin "soft and sweet" etc is, by definition, a neo-stalinist. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Tammi is not a member of the committee, so please remove his name from the lead. Offliner ( talk) 10:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Tammi is not a member, and the most of the Finnish media didn't even published his anti-Estonian opinions in "Nashi-demonstration" in March 2009 in Helsinki. Tammi joined very late with his two friends to demonstration. News releases of demonstrations were writen/lead by Bäckman (in the name of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee) and they were signed by Bäckman, Hietanen and Krohn. ( [9] read: MANIFEST OF ANTIFASCISTS IN HELSINKI 23.03.2009) Peltimikko ( talk) 19:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed some speculations of Tammi. Tammi gave couple of interviews, claiming he was a former KGB agent. Nobody have not even taking these talks seriously. At least, I have not seen any articles where someone has actually investigated Tammi's claims. Tammi just wants his 15 minutes of fame (again). Peltimikko ( talk) 20:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Tammi is not a member of the committee, and as this is an article on the committee, his views are irrelevant here. It may be relevant however to an article relating to himself or his own organisation. -- Russavia Dialogue 14:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are some Russian language sources with translations:
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 05:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree, we need sections. There's a whole lot of tightly attributed text, and without subheadings, it's nearly unreadable. But I'm not yet sure of the appropriate way to chop up the original WallOfText. Let's discuss it here. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 10:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
One. He has said it himself, and considering the etymologies of the parts of his name, it's credible. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 15:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
It is clear that several Estonian nationalists are violating rules while editing this article - these violations have been reported to Wikipedia moderators. Interesting that strange accusations about "KGB-links", similars that are represented by dirt articles by notorious KAPO officer Andres Kahar in Estonian press, are repeated in this article. Abdullah Tammi has only himself claimed he was KGB-agent. There is no evidence about this. Probably Tammi made himself PR in this way. Underlining unexistent neo-nazi or KGB link is typical strategy of KAPO and their aids. This is reported to KAPO as well. Be careful! Follow the rules of WIikipedia! -- 91.152.84.165 ( talk) 19:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The claims made by the Estonian writers of this aricle are unbelievable. They claim all "publications" of the committee are published by a former KGB-agent. However, the committee has no publications, and there are obviously no sources for such publications. The source is Estonian yellow nespaper, which is very unreliable. Please find better criticism against this organisation, something else than "stalinism" and "neo-nazi" ties, and "KGB-ties". -- 91.152.84.165 ( talk) 19:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody is always returning claim that Safka is neo-stalinist. This has been only once presented in well-known fascist newspaper in Estonia. That is not enough to say the Safka has been labelled as neo-stalinist in the media. If one fascist says so, it is not enough. Please find more sources from "the media" which show Safka is neo-stalinist. Estonian fascist newspapers are not reliable source. -- 91.195.247.200 ( talk) 17:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the information on neo-Stalinism should be placed back there as the real Finnish antifascists themselves are calling this group neo-Stalinist. http://www.antifa.fi/2013/02/stalin-was-gentle-and-sweet.html As for calling a newspaper "fascist", you need some arguments to back your wild claim. You have none. Just claiming "fascist!" is not enough. Lebatsnok ( talk) 08:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Would it be accurate to summarise in /* Manifests and declarations */ that most of the Committee's public statements discuss Estonia, its history, and its right to exist as a state? It seems excessive to just quote all the statements. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 12:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Eesti Ekspress' Christmas special, lampooning events of the year 2008 in [14], labels Bäckman and Hietanen "Finnish estophile dwarves" and has them sing "We're happy Stalinists". I'm not entirely sure, but I think the song is supposed to use the tune of " Hi ho, hi ho". Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The Category:Anti-fascist organizations is problematic in this article, as the Committee's understanding of fascism differs considerably from the common understanding. In such contexts, because category members can not be annotated in MediaWiki, the categorisation policy recommends against using categories, and that lists or naviboxes instead. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The currently cited source states, and I translate: "The so-called Finnish Antifascist Committee (SAFKA) consists of three members: Johan Bäckman, Leena Hietanen and Petri Krohn. They are joined by Abdullah (former Risto) Tammi, leader of the not yet created Finnish Islamic Party, who has publically admitted that for decades, he spied on Finnish religious movements as a KGB informant." Considering that the organisation is not officially registered, it does not have an official roster of membership -- we're stuck with what public sources say about its members. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 13:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
In his edits yesterday Digwuren ( talk · contribs) has removed attribution from several Estonian "neo-stalinist" style claims. (see [18] [19] [20] [21]) I strongly protest against these edits. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 00:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I started this at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2009 April 8#Template:Neo-Stalinism in 21st century but I am expanding it here because the search results are directly releted to this article.
Estonian sources are very usefull indeed! If I go to the Finnish language version of Google ( www.google.fi) and search for "Eesti Ekspress" – that is for the newspaper Eesti Ekspress – the first link I get is the this: Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus. Now does this mean we should include Estonia in the {{ Apartheid}} template or in the {{ Fascism}} template? Or maybe in both? -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 17:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The Estonian version of Google ( www.google.ee) does a better job. A search for "Eesti Ekspress" returns the home page of the newspaper as the No 1 result. Eestil on fašistlik apartheidivalitsus drops to result number 2. The opinion piece is almost a year old. I guess Estonians must be really mad by now, if they have been seeing this for the whole year, every time they search for their favorite newspaper.
On Google.com we are somewhat shielded from the "neo-Stalinist" propaganda. You have to click More results from www.ekspress.ee to see this as result number 8.
The relationship to this article is of course that the text has been written by two members of the Committee. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 19:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
We now have a tertiary source on the activities on SAFKA. The Finnish Embassy in Tallinn has issued a media review.
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 22:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the Estonian press is introducing new neologisms every week. This week Kaitsepolitsei has decided, that SAFKA members are not Neo-Stalinist but neo- Bolshevists. This can even be attributed to a "reliable source"; the EU Information Centre in Estonia, see Bäckman ja Hietanen kandideerivad europarlamenti.
Again, I have no idea what being a neo-Bolshevists implies. All Google can tell me is that Obama's dad was one. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Classifying the Committee as socialist implies it has policy ideas about economy or society. I'm not sure this applies; it's more of a like-and-dislike group, a pressure group. Is it appropriate to transfer Putin's socialist views to all pro-Putin groups? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 03:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Putin is not socialist, though he is etatist. SAFKA can indeed be characterised as a pressure group. -- Miacek (t) 12:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone should write an article on the proposed Russian Law on countermeasures against the rehabilitation of Nazism, Nazi criminals and their associates in former republics of the Soviet Union ( Russian: «О противодействии реабилитации в новых независимых государствах на территории бывшего Союза ССР нацизма, нацистских преступников и их пособников»). This may have some relationship with the subject of this article. I collected some references here. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Some more references:
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 02:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Pecularities of Finnish culture. Finns really like their personal space, and tend to prefer speaking on phone to speaking in person. Some people even speak about business meetings being conducted by two (or sometimes more) people meeting at a public place, shaking hands, exchanging calling cards, then moving slightly apart and calling each other via cellphone. It makes sense they would prefer blogging to public speaking. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 11:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
By the way, a list of public meetings registered with police of Tallinn can be seen at [24]. Among my favourites are the one that seeks to uncover cruelty against plants conducted by vegans, and the man who has registered two weeks of picketing from 00:00 to 24:00, adding that the picket will be carried through while lying on the ground. And apparently, in last November, somebody picketed against a new shape of dumplings. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 20:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned by the edits of 88.194.24.150. For example, what sources support calling SAFKA "radical"? As far as I know, their only similarity to classic radicalism is demonstrating pretty much everywhere, and holding unorthodox positions -- but typically, either vigorous defence of funny politics or violence are also required for radicalism. "The group has especially fought against rehabilitation of Nazi war crimes in Estonia and Latvia, being thus labeled as "pro-Putin"." smacks me as non sequitur, and might run awry of the WP:NOR policy. Finally, Mr. Iljaševitš is a resident of Republic of Estonia, which uses Latin alphabet for names of its citizens and residents; it would be pointless and potentially confusing to radically transform his name as the esteemed anonymous has done. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 11:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I hear SAFKA has sued The Soviet Story in several countries. What are Finnish laws regarding vexatious litigation? Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 19:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
How about changing "The group has especially fought against rehabilitation of Nazi war crimes in Estonia and Latvia" to "the group claims especially to fight..." It could probably be sourced to their writings somewhere, but seems trivial? Also, you reverted all my other improvements as well, without explanation. Offliner ( talk) 01:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The connection to Tammi is indeed only "alleged." His only connection is that he took part in the same protest with SAFKA (for his own reasons.) He is not a member, and there is no proof of any further connections between them. There is also no reliable source confirming that he is a "former KGB affiliate." The only "proof" is that he claims so himself. Offliner ( talk) 01:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The notability of this article was questioned by an anonymous IP-editor from Finland with zero edits — no doubt guided here by the shock value of today's Sunday edition of Finland national newspaper Helsingin Sanomat.
The paper was in fact quite interesting; the main "news", covering two thirds of the front page and two pages in the Sunday "features"-section was a report on the visit of one member of the committee, Johan Bäckman to the Lake Seliger youth camp in Russia. Most shocking was of course the fact that Helsingin Sanomat broke the apartheid like ban on reporting on the activities of committee members imposed by — none other than the Finnish staff of the Information Ministry of the Islamic Caucasus Emirate, known locally as Kavkaz Center.
As to the notability question itself, important insight can be gained from the ANNUAL REVIEW of the SECURITY POLICE OF THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA for 2009. (I cannot find a link to this most recent edition, but here is a link to the 2008 review.) From multiple press reports on the review it seems that the Estonian Security Police ( KaPo) now consider the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee as the number one threat to Estonian state security. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 22:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
P.S. - In fact the Estonian language review for 2009 has appeared on the web, the PDF file is here. The activities of the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee are covered on pages 10 and 11, right after the presentation of the rank insignia of of the Security Police. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 23:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
It seems that something posted on the SAFKA web site and widely distributed by the Russian media has today led to the resignation of Ella Pamfilova from her post as chairman of the the Civil Society Institution and Human Rights Council of the Russian Federation. I have not yet read any of the Russian language news stories on the resignation, but as I understand it, she resigned as she felt she was not getting the support she needed while trying to protect Lyudmila Alexeyeva from being portrayed as a Nazi. The relevant Google news threads seem to be these two. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 01:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted labelling Nochnoy Dozor (group) as a Russian organisation. According to its article it is is a group of mostly Russophone political activists living in Estonia. The source for the sisterships actually is telling that the leader of Nochnoy Dozor Dmitri Linter was a host for the visit of all those people to Tallinn, Estonia. He lives in Estonia and AFAIK is an Estonian citizen. Quite possibly the group is financially supported from Russia and most of its members are Russophones but I do not think it can be labelled as a group from Russia. If you think it is important to emphasize the relations of the group (as well as all the other "anti-fascist sisters" to Russia (I am not sure it is worth it) it should be done in more correct way Alex Bakharev ( talk) 01:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)