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Move to Baltic-Finnic languages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippophaë~enwiki ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
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This article is a mess, considerable improvement is needed. At least the following point should be addressed:
-- AAikio 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The map is way off. It includes many non-Finnic languages as Finnic.
Who invented this South Estonian language ? I think such language (as language, not group of dialects with shared vocabulary) is totally bogus and certainly it does not deserve any different status than Savo Finnish or East Finnish and many similar groupings.
Also, I think that one 'language' Võro being part of other 'language' South Estonian language is an oxymoron, language subgroups are usually called dialects.
I am totally open to suggestion that Võro-Seto is a separate language and not an Estonian dialect as it has different grammar than Estonian. But dialects of Viljandi county (supposedly part of that South Estonian language) do not use that distinct Võro-Seto grammar at all, the use Estonian grammar. So they speak no more Võro language than Estonians of Kodavere parish speak Votian. In my opinion, if Võro is a separate language then the Võro language is a substratum of Tartu and Viljandi dialects of Estonian language (not that they all constitute the so called South Estonian language). Southern Estonian dialects were grouped together just because they have words not present in other dialects. That is not how languages are defined. Language definition includes Mutual intelligibility so if somebody wants to say people in Viljandi county speak South Estonian language, then they should understand Seto better that Estonian which I am sure is not the case.
Remove South Estonian language from the language list?
Warbola 21:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is the name Baltic-Finnic preferred over Finnic? Considering the name looks similar to Baltic, in al inguistic sense, I think it could cause confusion. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Baltic-Finnic languages are not genetically related to Baltic languages? Is that a joke? Please rephrase so that it would make sense. And regarding the discussion here earlier about Finno-Permic, please do not use not sourced opinions for backing up any claims. There are multiple interpretations of how exactly the Finnic languages are group together or not. There are no rules here like in mathematics; every researcher has their own opinion. What is the case though, Baltic Finnic is most often referred to as Finnic only by the Baltic-Finnic linguists perhaps as I've lately learned. So please AAikio, provide the source who says that Finno-Ugric linguists consider this use of the term erroneous Meanwhile, since the article is not refed with any sources, next time I'm going to come by, all opinions regarding Baltic-Finnic=Finnic are going to be challenged since it is factually incorrect. Please meanwhile fix the article according to the facts. I'm not going to tag it just yet even though there are no sources provided of any kind and it shows in the text. Thanks-- Termer 09:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Since nothing has been done to straighten up the article, I've fixed up the header according to facts. For example Baltic-Finnic is not Finnic like the article claimed before but just one branch of Finnic languages beside of Volga finnic. etc. There is still a lot of work to be done, feel free to help out anybody. thanks--
Termer (
talk)
05:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
PS. There is no such a language as "Southern Estonian" , instead there are Võro and Seto languages spoken in Southern Estonia. That was fixed in the article as well.--
Termer (
talk)
05:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for providing refs frot what 'Finnic', 'Baltic Finnic', and 'Finno-Permic' mean. Feel free to add those refs to the article. There are 5 other referenced interpretations what exactly 'Finnic', 'Baltic Finnic', and 'Finno-Permic' mean currently also added to Finnic languages, therefore what you consider "correct" is just one way to look at it. Also "South Estonian" is used in historic context spoken in the historic Livonia in contrast to "Northern Estonian". Using the term "South Estonian" nowadays would be like calling Hungarian language "Southern Finno-Ugric language" and Finnish language would be "Northern Finno-Ugric language". -- Termer ( talk) 20:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Petri Kallio is free to label any languages on geographic basis. And in case in his book exist a language called "South Estonian" feel free to add "according to Kallio" to the article. However, WP is way ahead of Kallio: the language he is referring to is either
Seto language or
Võro language. WP only knows of the
South Estonian dialects, not a single language , the idea that was there perhaps hundreds of years ago.
did not know that Baltic-Finnic languages are unrelated to Baltic languages? Who or what gave you such an idea? However thats not exactly correct either. There are many loans in
Baltic-Finnic languages that come straight from
Baltic languages, they belong to different language families though, and "everybody" knows that. So I have no idea what are you talking about while referring to my presumed knowledge. --
Termer (
talk)
08:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out that
Seto language and
Võro language didn't have any direct intext refs attached to the articles. I took care of it. And therefore let me rephrase it, there are scholars way ahead of Petri Kallio and it has been reflected in the relevant articles on WP. Most notable in the Northern America who has also studied Võro language directly would be Kara Brown PhD from the
Indiana University (Bloomington). And it is linguistically entirely NOT justified to refer to Southern Estonian dialects as a single language since speakers of Mulgi dialect and Tartu dialect, (that were also referred to as South Estonian language in the 19th century) would not understand most often what the speakers of Võru language and Seto language are talking about. Or other way to put it, there are 4 different major dialects in the Southern Estonia, only 2 are considered as separate languages. And it all has been covered at
the talk page
Regarding the odd and ambiguous use of English in the sentence pointed out by me earlier, since it seems it has been rephrased I can't see it as a problem any more.--
Termer (
talk)
22:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi AAikio. No problem, it's the best to call it a misunderstanding. Although I'd like to point out once more that it's a bad idea to call speakers of Võru and Setu all together "South Estonian language".(at the time when South Estonian dialects would be just fine) Bard me if I'm not going to look up for the direct sources at this time but in general. The Seto's are already mentioned in the Russian primary chronicle , they clearly speak their language, they are also culturally different than the rest of the Souther Estonians or anybody living in the neighborhood. Now the Võru dialect or language is often referred to being actually closer to Finnish than Estonian. And that is not surprising since. (I'm sorry I need to look it up again if it was after the Livonian War or the Great Northern War), after the war there was massive migration from Finland to the area since there was literally nobody left to farm the land. So it's safe to say that the speakers of võru are descendants of Finns from Finland and Setos are ancient local people. Whatever similarities there are between the languages (other than both being Baltic Finnic) must come from interaction with each other during the last centuries. And of course , this remains entirely "WP:OR" until I've taken my time, looked up the books again and written it into the article according to the published sources. All the best!-- Termer ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't strike me at all that people often think "in case I haven't heard about it, it doesn't exist or must be nonsense". But not to worry, I'll take it as a motivation to look up the books and citations for these facts regarding Finnish migration to Southern Estonia. It might be that you're not the only one who has not heard about it. For now -the fact that Võru is thought to be closer to Finnish than Estonian was also mentioned at the University of Virginia article by Kara D. Brown [1]. Here is another one by Kara D. Brown @ World congress on language policies Finnish and Võro are believed to be more closely related to each other than Võro with standard Estonian-- Termer ( talk) 22:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
OK AAikio, looked it up for you, here are the facts about the major Finnish migration into Estonia that took place during the reign of Gustav II Adolf at the time when both Finland and Estonia/Livonia were part of Swedish Empire. The original source was the Swedish Census in 1638-1641, the facts were published in an old history book I had handy. According to the Swedish Census at the time up to 75% of farms in Swedish Estonia/Livonia had became deserted and remained unoccupied after the wars. The migration of Finns to Estonia resulted of being 12-20% of the population in the Northern Estonia and partly up to 39,8% in Southern Estonia/Livonia. A particular center of Finnish settlement has been mentioned in the 1638-1641 Census at Põltsamaa. I don't know if it has anything to do with "Finnish and Võro are believed to be more closely related to each other" but thats what the facts are: somebody definitely descends from Finns in Southern Estonia. Later after the Great Northern War there was also some migration reported from Finland to Estonia according to the census made by the Russian Empire but the settlements were not as significant as the ones established during the times of Gustav II Adolf.-- Termer ( talk) 07:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
First of all, once more, the use of South Estonian language as an ambigious term should be avoided in the context because it refers also to the language spoken in the entire Northern Livonia in the 19th century that included the Tartu dialect etc. as opposed to the way some ignorant scholars use it nowadays for the language that has it's name, either Võru or Setu. And sorry, regarding Finnish-Võru, I can't take an opinion of an anonymos Wikipedian claiming to be "a professional comparative linguist" as a more reliable source than opinion cited at the University of Virginia by Kara Brown, the source you compleatly ignored along the one you took a look at and called an internet page. And certanly, to interpet the facts of Finnish migration to Southern Estonia as South Estonians are entirely? mainly? descendants of Finnish-speaking Finns would be absurd indeed. Why did you project such an absurd idea you came up with on your own to me, I have no idea. I presumed things like the process of ethnogenesis etc. would be common knowledge nowadays. -- Termer ( talk) 19:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ante, nice to meet you, pard' me for my ignorance, you're not an anonymous linguist on WP indeed. Hope you got something out of this discussion, found out why the use of "South Estonian language" is not such a good idea and hopefully you can take it up one day with Kara Brown regards similarities between Finnish-Võru. And if you could please do the article a favor, as according to the most of Finnish linguists Finnic=Baltic Finnic, the fact still is not spelled out in either this or Finnic languages articles. If you could take care of it by citing the most known Finnish linguists by name and adding their interpretation of the Finno Ugric language tree along with the other 5 examples, the articles would benefit from it I think. Take care and all the best!-- Termer ( talk) 09:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, continuing my selfdesingated quest, in making various maps. Did an Image:ItämerensuomMurreTextiAika.png, tried to check things from many articles, but still don't know how accurate that is, but is it accurate enough? put it in the article if you see it fit. Dreg743 ( talk) 09:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In case the map is about Finnic languages than Hungarian doesn't belong to the group. In case it's about Finno-Ugric languages perhaps you'd like to check out this one
-- Termer ( talk) 09:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Well there are some Saami people living (5 %? )in Southern Lapland, most I think use Finnish. The same goes with Northern Norway atlantic coast, where Saami have some villages if I remember correctly. There the language they use is mostly Norwegian, maybe some use also the Kven dialect (which is quite hard to get for a finn from southeast.) Otherwise no objections, as I do not know the current situation in Russia too well. I'll have to check the distribution of Mari language. Thanks for that :-). Dreg743 ( talk) 09:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me also comment on this: it is a very clear and nice-looking map. However, there's one detail that should be improved. The "Kven" area on the Norwegian coast should also be colored with green lines, because both Saami and Finnish (= Kven) are spoken over this entire coastal area; and Saami certainly even has many more speakers than Kven in this area. Now the map gives the incorrect impression that Saami would be confined to the inland areas and bordered by Kven in the North. -- 213.139.161.102 ( talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
And adding to my previous comment above (forgot to log in, hence the IP): also the distribution of Saami on the Kola Peninsula must be fixed. Now there are green dots covering also the southern side of the peninsula, but Saami has not been spoken in these areas for quite a while; hence the distribution is currently too large. Also some other details could maybe be improved; e.g. Mordvin is definitely spoken in a larger area than now displayed. I think a very good idea would be to check the details against the map "Geographical Distribution of the Uralic Languages" by Riho Grünthal and Tapani Salminen, published by the Finno-Ugrian Society and available at [3] for 9€. -- AAikio ( talk) 22:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is the title hyphenated? Does anyone other than Wikipedia write "Baltic-Finnic"? kwami ( talk) 19:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Both forms are used, please see google books or google scholar. "Baltic-Finnic" is definitely more clear in order to avoid confusion with Baltic languages and Baltic peoples.-- Termer ( talk) 02:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Aikio, Termer, would you take a look at Finnic peoples? If Finns identify only with Baltic Finnic speakers, this should be reflected in the scope of that article. kwami ( talk) 19:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware of it, Finns prefer to identify themselves with Scandinavians first of all. Another question is how is someone's self identity and/or soul searching related to a Wikipedia article about a historical group like Finnic peoples? -- Termer ( talk) 02:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
There are various theories which assert that the Basque language is somehow related to the Balto-Finnic language group. It would be interesting if the article could mention these hypotheses. ADM ( talk) 00:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Basque language is somehow related to the Balto-Finnic languags? The only thing in common is that those are the languages spoken in Europe that are not related to Indo-European languages and therefore get often mentioned together. See for example Word origins By Anatoly Liberman p. 170 only Basque, Sami, Hungarian, Finnish, and Estonian are not Indo-European. But it doesn't mean that the Basque and Baltic-Finnic languages are related to each other.-- Termer ( talk) 05:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
The idea that Curonian was not a hypothetical Baltic (Indo-European) language, indeed transitional between Lithuanian and Latvian, but rather a Balto-Finnic one, has some good evidence for it. Howerver: only look at where Curonia (Kurzeme) lies, and where the last speakers of modern Livonian have been living! The 'Livonian' speakers actually live in Curonia. Livonia is a historical region spanning both Latvia and Estonia (a German-speaking landholder, like Graf Hermann Keyserling, descended from the Teutonic Knights, was surprised to find his lands split between the two new countries - had hadn't even known that there were two such different nations, they were all his 'Gesinde'!).
Consensus among Uralicists (linguists specializing in the Uralic languages that include Balto-Finnic) is that Balto-Finnic either bifurcates - with 'South Estonian' alone in one branch, all other Balto-Finnic languages in the other branch, which then bifurcates into 'Livonian' versus all-the-rest - or more likely trifurcates: the three branches being 'Livonian', 'South Estonian' and all-the-rest - North Estonian, Vote, Ingrian, Finnish, Karelian, Veps.
The historical vagueness about the names of nations in this area leads me to suggest the following.The 'Livonians' are really the Curonians. The 'South Estonians' are really Livonians. All the others are descended from the Kylfings or some other early-mediaeval or pre-mediaeval group powerful in North Russia and known to have brought trade and agriculture to Finland and other parts of the Far North: the big dialect area of 'all-the-rest' derives from their language, and the tiny handful of remaining Votes are the last descendants of the core of this grouping. UnknownSage ( talk) 15:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This map should not be used as it misrepresents the linguistic situation. Finnish is not spoken only halfway up through Finland, there are no bilingual or multilingual areas represented at all. If nothing else, the map is in Spanish. On the English language wikipedia. I don't have time to fix it; I'll leave that up to someone else. - Yupik ( talk) 20:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
The section subgrouping seems to be the work of Wikipedia users. For example, it does not correspond to Sammallahti who is given as a source. This is a rather clear violation of WP:OR which explicitly forbids this practice, and could (and should) be swiftly removed and replaced by a subgrouping coming from a reliable source. Jeppiz ( talk) 15:34, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
As far as I know Mordovin is not generally count as part of Finnic but as a highly close relative? or if so, I doubt it to be uncontested. -- ValtteriLahti12 ( talk) 08:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
ValtteriLahti12 a native Russian speaker hadn't heard the term in Russia or hadn't read the article Mordvinic languages itself since he uses incorrect English spelling of the term. Why the term is obsolete? Because it has been based on the Soviet period artificially constructed nation (see the article Mordvins first). Please kindly comment before removing the template See respective discussion /info/en/?search=Talk:Mordvinic_languages#About_the_proposed_merge_with_Finnic discussion. Vaultralph1 ( talk) 10:16, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
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Finnic languages → Baltic-Finnic languages – The common name for these languages is 'Baltic-Finnic languages'. Additionally, the article about the peoples who speak these languages is titled Baltic Finnic peoples. However, I have reservations about moving the Finnic languages (disambiguation) page to the title 'Finnic languages' due to ongoing debates regarding the validity of the Finno-Permic languages as a taxonomical group. It might be more appropriate to consider deleting the disambiguation page altogether. Furthermore, all interwikis are using Baltic-Finnic in their titles. Vandervalp ( talk) 14:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
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Move to Baltic-Finnic languages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippophaë~enwiki ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
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This article is a mess, considerable improvement is needed. At least the following point should be addressed:
-- AAikio 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The map is way off. It includes many non-Finnic languages as Finnic.
Who invented this South Estonian language ? I think such language (as language, not group of dialects with shared vocabulary) is totally bogus and certainly it does not deserve any different status than Savo Finnish or East Finnish and many similar groupings.
Also, I think that one 'language' Võro being part of other 'language' South Estonian language is an oxymoron, language subgroups are usually called dialects.
I am totally open to suggestion that Võro-Seto is a separate language and not an Estonian dialect as it has different grammar than Estonian. But dialects of Viljandi county (supposedly part of that South Estonian language) do not use that distinct Võro-Seto grammar at all, the use Estonian grammar. So they speak no more Võro language than Estonians of Kodavere parish speak Votian. In my opinion, if Võro is a separate language then the Võro language is a substratum of Tartu and Viljandi dialects of Estonian language (not that they all constitute the so called South Estonian language). Southern Estonian dialects were grouped together just because they have words not present in other dialects. That is not how languages are defined. Language definition includes Mutual intelligibility so if somebody wants to say people in Viljandi county speak South Estonian language, then they should understand Seto better that Estonian which I am sure is not the case.
Remove South Estonian language from the language list?
Warbola 21:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is the name Baltic-Finnic preferred over Finnic? Considering the name looks similar to Baltic, in al inguistic sense, I think it could cause confusion. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Baltic-Finnic languages are not genetically related to Baltic languages? Is that a joke? Please rephrase so that it would make sense. And regarding the discussion here earlier about Finno-Permic, please do not use not sourced opinions for backing up any claims. There are multiple interpretations of how exactly the Finnic languages are group together or not. There are no rules here like in mathematics; every researcher has their own opinion. What is the case though, Baltic Finnic is most often referred to as Finnic only by the Baltic-Finnic linguists perhaps as I've lately learned. So please AAikio, provide the source who says that Finno-Ugric linguists consider this use of the term erroneous Meanwhile, since the article is not refed with any sources, next time I'm going to come by, all opinions regarding Baltic-Finnic=Finnic are going to be challenged since it is factually incorrect. Please meanwhile fix the article according to the facts. I'm not going to tag it just yet even though there are no sources provided of any kind and it shows in the text. Thanks-- Termer 09:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Since nothing has been done to straighten up the article, I've fixed up the header according to facts. For example Baltic-Finnic is not Finnic like the article claimed before but just one branch of Finnic languages beside of Volga finnic. etc. There is still a lot of work to be done, feel free to help out anybody. thanks--
Termer (
talk)
05:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
PS. There is no such a language as "Southern Estonian" , instead there are Võro and Seto languages spoken in Southern Estonia. That was fixed in the article as well.--
Termer (
talk)
05:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for providing refs frot what 'Finnic', 'Baltic Finnic', and 'Finno-Permic' mean. Feel free to add those refs to the article. There are 5 other referenced interpretations what exactly 'Finnic', 'Baltic Finnic', and 'Finno-Permic' mean currently also added to Finnic languages, therefore what you consider "correct" is just one way to look at it. Also "South Estonian" is used in historic context spoken in the historic Livonia in contrast to "Northern Estonian". Using the term "South Estonian" nowadays would be like calling Hungarian language "Southern Finno-Ugric language" and Finnish language would be "Northern Finno-Ugric language". -- Termer ( talk) 20:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Petri Kallio is free to label any languages on geographic basis. And in case in his book exist a language called "South Estonian" feel free to add "according to Kallio" to the article. However, WP is way ahead of Kallio: the language he is referring to is either
Seto language or
Võro language. WP only knows of the
South Estonian dialects, not a single language , the idea that was there perhaps hundreds of years ago.
did not know that Baltic-Finnic languages are unrelated to Baltic languages? Who or what gave you such an idea? However thats not exactly correct either. There are many loans in
Baltic-Finnic languages that come straight from
Baltic languages, they belong to different language families though, and "everybody" knows that. So I have no idea what are you talking about while referring to my presumed knowledge. --
Termer (
talk)
08:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out that
Seto language and
Võro language didn't have any direct intext refs attached to the articles. I took care of it. And therefore let me rephrase it, there are scholars way ahead of Petri Kallio and it has been reflected in the relevant articles on WP. Most notable in the Northern America who has also studied Võro language directly would be Kara Brown PhD from the
Indiana University (Bloomington). And it is linguistically entirely NOT justified to refer to Southern Estonian dialects as a single language since speakers of Mulgi dialect and Tartu dialect, (that were also referred to as South Estonian language in the 19th century) would not understand most often what the speakers of Võru language and Seto language are talking about. Or other way to put it, there are 4 different major dialects in the Southern Estonia, only 2 are considered as separate languages. And it all has been covered at
the talk page
Regarding the odd and ambiguous use of English in the sentence pointed out by me earlier, since it seems it has been rephrased I can't see it as a problem any more.--
Termer (
talk)
22:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi AAikio. No problem, it's the best to call it a misunderstanding. Although I'd like to point out once more that it's a bad idea to call speakers of Võru and Setu all together "South Estonian language".(at the time when South Estonian dialects would be just fine) Bard me if I'm not going to look up for the direct sources at this time but in general. The Seto's are already mentioned in the Russian primary chronicle , they clearly speak their language, they are also culturally different than the rest of the Souther Estonians or anybody living in the neighborhood. Now the Võru dialect or language is often referred to being actually closer to Finnish than Estonian. And that is not surprising since. (I'm sorry I need to look it up again if it was after the Livonian War or the Great Northern War), after the war there was massive migration from Finland to the area since there was literally nobody left to farm the land. So it's safe to say that the speakers of võru are descendants of Finns from Finland and Setos are ancient local people. Whatever similarities there are between the languages (other than both being Baltic Finnic) must come from interaction with each other during the last centuries. And of course , this remains entirely "WP:OR" until I've taken my time, looked up the books again and written it into the article according to the published sources. All the best!-- Termer ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't strike me at all that people often think "in case I haven't heard about it, it doesn't exist or must be nonsense". But not to worry, I'll take it as a motivation to look up the books and citations for these facts regarding Finnish migration to Southern Estonia. It might be that you're not the only one who has not heard about it. For now -the fact that Võru is thought to be closer to Finnish than Estonian was also mentioned at the University of Virginia article by Kara D. Brown [1]. Here is another one by Kara D. Brown @ World congress on language policies Finnish and Võro are believed to be more closely related to each other than Võro with standard Estonian-- Termer ( talk) 22:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
OK AAikio, looked it up for you, here are the facts about the major Finnish migration into Estonia that took place during the reign of Gustav II Adolf at the time when both Finland and Estonia/Livonia were part of Swedish Empire. The original source was the Swedish Census in 1638-1641, the facts were published in an old history book I had handy. According to the Swedish Census at the time up to 75% of farms in Swedish Estonia/Livonia had became deserted and remained unoccupied after the wars. The migration of Finns to Estonia resulted of being 12-20% of the population in the Northern Estonia and partly up to 39,8% in Southern Estonia/Livonia. A particular center of Finnish settlement has been mentioned in the 1638-1641 Census at Põltsamaa. I don't know if it has anything to do with "Finnish and Võro are believed to be more closely related to each other" but thats what the facts are: somebody definitely descends from Finns in Southern Estonia. Later after the Great Northern War there was also some migration reported from Finland to Estonia according to the census made by the Russian Empire but the settlements were not as significant as the ones established during the times of Gustav II Adolf.-- Termer ( talk) 07:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
First of all, once more, the use of South Estonian language as an ambigious term should be avoided in the context because it refers also to the language spoken in the entire Northern Livonia in the 19th century that included the Tartu dialect etc. as opposed to the way some ignorant scholars use it nowadays for the language that has it's name, either Võru or Setu. And sorry, regarding Finnish-Võru, I can't take an opinion of an anonymos Wikipedian claiming to be "a professional comparative linguist" as a more reliable source than opinion cited at the University of Virginia by Kara Brown, the source you compleatly ignored along the one you took a look at and called an internet page. And certanly, to interpet the facts of Finnish migration to Southern Estonia as South Estonians are entirely? mainly? descendants of Finnish-speaking Finns would be absurd indeed. Why did you project such an absurd idea you came up with on your own to me, I have no idea. I presumed things like the process of ethnogenesis etc. would be common knowledge nowadays. -- Termer ( talk) 19:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ante, nice to meet you, pard' me for my ignorance, you're not an anonymous linguist on WP indeed. Hope you got something out of this discussion, found out why the use of "South Estonian language" is not such a good idea and hopefully you can take it up one day with Kara Brown regards similarities between Finnish-Võru. And if you could please do the article a favor, as according to the most of Finnish linguists Finnic=Baltic Finnic, the fact still is not spelled out in either this or Finnic languages articles. If you could take care of it by citing the most known Finnish linguists by name and adding their interpretation of the Finno Ugric language tree along with the other 5 examples, the articles would benefit from it I think. Take care and all the best!-- Termer ( talk) 09:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, continuing my selfdesingated quest, in making various maps. Did an Image:ItämerensuomMurreTextiAika.png, tried to check things from many articles, but still don't know how accurate that is, but is it accurate enough? put it in the article if you see it fit. Dreg743 ( talk) 09:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
In case the map is about Finnic languages than Hungarian doesn't belong to the group. In case it's about Finno-Ugric languages perhaps you'd like to check out this one
-- Termer ( talk) 09:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Well there are some Saami people living (5 %? )in Southern Lapland, most I think use Finnish. The same goes with Northern Norway atlantic coast, where Saami have some villages if I remember correctly. There the language they use is mostly Norwegian, maybe some use also the Kven dialect (which is quite hard to get for a finn from southeast.) Otherwise no objections, as I do not know the current situation in Russia too well. I'll have to check the distribution of Mari language. Thanks for that :-). Dreg743 ( talk) 09:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me also comment on this: it is a very clear and nice-looking map. However, there's one detail that should be improved. The "Kven" area on the Norwegian coast should also be colored with green lines, because both Saami and Finnish (= Kven) are spoken over this entire coastal area; and Saami certainly even has many more speakers than Kven in this area. Now the map gives the incorrect impression that Saami would be confined to the inland areas and bordered by Kven in the North. -- 213.139.161.102 ( talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
And adding to my previous comment above (forgot to log in, hence the IP): also the distribution of Saami on the Kola Peninsula must be fixed. Now there are green dots covering also the southern side of the peninsula, but Saami has not been spoken in these areas for quite a while; hence the distribution is currently too large. Also some other details could maybe be improved; e.g. Mordvin is definitely spoken in a larger area than now displayed. I think a very good idea would be to check the details against the map "Geographical Distribution of the Uralic Languages" by Riho Grünthal and Tapani Salminen, published by the Finno-Ugrian Society and available at [3] for 9€. -- AAikio ( talk) 22:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is the title hyphenated? Does anyone other than Wikipedia write "Baltic-Finnic"? kwami ( talk) 19:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Both forms are used, please see google books or google scholar. "Baltic-Finnic" is definitely more clear in order to avoid confusion with Baltic languages and Baltic peoples.-- Termer ( talk) 02:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Aikio, Termer, would you take a look at Finnic peoples? If Finns identify only with Baltic Finnic speakers, this should be reflected in the scope of that article. kwami ( talk) 19:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware of it, Finns prefer to identify themselves with Scandinavians first of all. Another question is how is someone's self identity and/or soul searching related to a Wikipedia article about a historical group like Finnic peoples? -- Termer ( talk) 02:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
There are various theories which assert that the Basque language is somehow related to the Balto-Finnic language group. It would be interesting if the article could mention these hypotheses. ADM ( talk) 00:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Basque language is somehow related to the Balto-Finnic languags? The only thing in common is that those are the languages spoken in Europe that are not related to Indo-European languages and therefore get often mentioned together. See for example Word origins By Anatoly Liberman p. 170 only Basque, Sami, Hungarian, Finnish, and Estonian are not Indo-European. But it doesn't mean that the Basque and Baltic-Finnic languages are related to each other.-- Termer ( talk) 05:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
The idea that Curonian was not a hypothetical Baltic (Indo-European) language, indeed transitional between Lithuanian and Latvian, but rather a Balto-Finnic one, has some good evidence for it. Howerver: only look at where Curonia (Kurzeme) lies, and where the last speakers of modern Livonian have been living! The 'Livonian' speakers actually live in Curonia. Livonia is a historical region spanning both Latvia and Estonia (a German-speaking landholder, like Graf Hermann Keyserling, descended from the Teutonic Knights, was surprised to find his lands split between the two new countries - had hadn't even known that there were two such different nations, they were all his 'Gesinde'!).
Consensus among Uralicists (linguists specializing in the Uralic languages that include Balto-Finnic) is that Balto-Finnic either bifurcates - with 'South Estonian' alone in one branch, all other Balto-Finnic languages in the other branch, which then bifurcates into 'Livonian' versus all-the-rest - or more likely trifurcates: the three branches being 'Livonian', 'South Estonian' and all-the-rest - North Estonian, Vote, Ingrian, Finnish, Karelian, Veps.
The historical vagueness about the names of nations in this area leads me to suggest the following.The 'Livonians' are really the Curonians. The 'South Estonians' are really Livonians. All the others are descended from the Kylfings or some other early-mediaeval or pre-mediaeval group powerful in North Russia and known to have brought trade and agriculture to Finland and other parts of the Far North: the big dialect area of 'all-the-rest' derives from their language, and the tiny handful of remaining Votes are the last descendants of the core of this grouping. UnknownSage ( talk) 15:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This map should not be used as it misrepresents the linguistic situation. Finnish is not spoken only halfway up through Finland, there are no bilingual or multilingual areas represented at all. If nothing else, the map is in Spanish. On the English language wikipedia. I don't have time to fix it; I'll leave that up to someone else. - Yupik ( talk) 20:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
The section subgrouping seems to be the work of Wikipedia users. For example, it does not correspond to Sammallahti who is given as a source. This is a rather clear violation of WP:OR which explicitly forbids this practice, and could (and should) be swiftly removed and replaced by a subgrouping coming from a reliable source. Jeppiz ( talk) 15:34, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
As far as I know Mordovin is not generally count as part of Finnic but as a highly close relative? or if so, I doubt it to be uncontested. -- ValtteriLahti12 ( talk) 08:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
ValtteriLahti12 a native Russian speaker hadn't heard the term in Russia or hadn't read the article Mordvinic languages itself since he uses incorrect English spelling of the term. Why the term is obsolete? Because it has been based on the Soviet period artificially constructed nation (see the article Mordvins first). Please kindly comment before removing the template See respective discussion /info/en/?search=Talk:Mordvinic_languages#About_the_proposed_merge_with_Finnic discussion. Vaultralph1 ( talk) 10:16, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
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Finnic languages → Baltic-Finnic languages – The common name for these languages is 'Baltic-Finnic languages'. Additionally, the article about the peoples who speak these languages is titled Baltic Finnic peoples. However, I have reservations about moving the Finnic languages (disambiguation) page to the title 'Finnic languages' due to ongoing debates regarding the validity of the Finno-Permic languages as a taxonomical group. It might be more appropriate to consider deleting the disambiguation page altogether. Furthermore, all interwikis are using Baltic-Finnic in their titles. Vandervalp ( talk) 14:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)