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Viili is definitely NOT the same as yogurt or the same as the Swedish variety. They all use different yeasts, molds, fungus, or bacteria as starter for the culture.
Villi is specific to Finland and, although Filmjölk is similar, and many Swedes do eat viili, it is definitely not the same thing and does not belong in the category of Swedish foods. I does belong to the cultured milk products category (it does seem that there is a wide enough variety of products in this category to warrant that topic, particularly from a scientific standpoint) and also to the Finnish foods category since it is, in Finnish communities both inside and outside of Finland, seen as an important food reflecting Finnish tradition and heritage. My own ancestors soaked slips in viili, dried them, and packed them in their luggage to bring with them across the ocean to America. There the dried starter was then used to continue daily viili-making in this country.
Read an article on viili here [1]
There is a chart showing starters on this page: [2]
Here is a link to purchase starter cultures: [3]
Crowdesign ( talk) 19:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
If 'Filmjölk' is a form of 'Fil' then should the name of the article (that is mainly about Fil and it's variants) not be Fil? Ciraric 20:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
filmjölk is also often eaten with crushed knäckebröd (still large chunks) in especially the northen part of sweden.
This comment cut and pasted from the talk page of
sour milk:
Avoid non-English titles, especially those with characters not found on the keyboards of English-speaking countries; this is the English Wikipedia, after all. Do not claim a general Nordic food as exclusively Swedish. -- Vuo 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
After a little googling, checking of interwiki links and the help of a nice Finland-Swede describing the content of fi:Piimä, it is obvious that piimä is not fil or filmjölk. Piimä is buttermilk, in Swedish kärnmjölk. Most probably, viili is a very similar product to filmjölk - at least for sure it is a kind of fil. The best way to find out the precise relationship would be to check the species of bacteria - in case you come across Streptococcus lactis it is the same as Lactococcus. I am sure they eat fil also in Norway and Denmark, by the way. If I could move this page to fil I would do it, since filmjölk is a kind of fil, but that space is occupied - and really I think this should be included in a more general page on soured milk products. Or maybe this page should be transformed into Soured milk products of Sweden, to include gräddfil (a bit like smetana) etc. I guess it would be possible to create a page on Nordic fil/viili, also, if someome is interested in doing that. Naming it would be an interesting task, though. / Habj 20:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose moving this page back to
Filmjölk and making
Fil (milk product) a redirect to
Filmjölk. Rationale:
Changing the article's name would also mean that the word fil would need to be replaced with filmjölk in most (but not all) places in the article. I'm happy to make those changes.
How about a time limit of two weeks for comments and objections?
– panda 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a note from a native English speaker (who had a recent conversation with a Swedish friend that brought me to this article).
Sour Milk or Soured Milk, or even the term Fermented Milk will all draw a different conclusion from the average English speaker. Sour Milk is an inherently bad description since it implies gone bad. She asked me what to call it and I told her just to say Yogurt with a different taste, as that is apparently what it's closest too.
I believe Fil or Filmjölk would be the preferred name, and perhaps more emphasis for English speakers that it is a Yogurt with apparently different bacteria used for fermentation.
- Brett Allen (Custodis)
122.148.193.244 14:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Since there weren't any objections to moving the page from Fil (milk product) back to Filmjölk after 2 weeks, I've made the change. panda 05:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
References
If filmjölk is piimä, then its title should not be in a foreign language, because there are English terms, such as cultured buttermilk or sour milk. Maybe the article could be there for some country-specific customs, but not as a general article. Again, if it is Swedish, then it should not contain references to Finnish or German terms, because then these products are different.
Is it common to ferment filmjölk at home? FreplySpang (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Surmjölk in Finland is piimä in Finnish and is what I use as buttermilk when making biscuits, etc. Fil as a word in Swedish in Finland refers solely to a more goopy, glue-like consistency of viili that is sold in small tubs (it's never drunk) like yoghurt. AFAIK the term for it in Sweden is långfil. I've never come across filmjölk in Finland and it was always one of the "complaints" that Swedes had when they came to visit. To make life more interesting then, there's also gräddfil or kermaviili in Finnish, which is a sour-cream-like product. And then there's also smetana and yoghurt. And for what it's worth, viili is not disappearing from the supermarket shelves in Finland. I think this article needs to be drastically improved as it is mixing a number of different milk products into one article and does not discuss the differences between Sweden and Finland (incl. the differences in terms for them, popularity, etc.). - Yupik 16:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Below is a summary of what various fermented milk products are called in Finnish, Finland Swedish, Swedish, and English, according to the following sources:
The different words used in Finland Swedish and Sweden Swedish help explain the confusion over what a Finnish product would be called in Swedish and why a Sweden Swede and Finland Swede have different opinions about what fil and filmjölk are.
Finnish | Finland Swedish | Swedish | English |
---|---|---|---|
-- | -- | filmjölk (short name is fil) | -- |
viili (sold with and without being inoculated with mold, according to Valio) | fil | filbunke | -- |
piimä | surmjölk (a drinkable soured milk product, not as thick as filmjölk) | ? | (cultured) buttermilk? |
pitkäviili | långfil | långfil, långmjölk, etc | -- |
kirnupiimä | kärnmjölk | kärnmjölk | (uncultured) buttermilk |
kermaviili | gräddfil | gräddfil | sour cream without rennet extract or any stabilizer/thickener |
ranskan kerma | crème fraiche | crème fraiche | creme fraiche |
rahka | kvarg, kvark | kvarg, kvark, Arla Kesella | quark (cheese) |
Furthermore, långfil, also known as långmjölk, is a type of filmjölk (see the filmjölk talk page on the Swedish wiki). If there is interest, I can translate the relevant text to English. My hypothesis for the naming scheme: Långfiil may have been called långfilmjölk at one point in time and since that's a pretty long word, got shorted to långfil and långmjölk, with långfil being the one chosen by Arla when they started to market their product in 1965, maybe because it was the shorter name and maybe to maintain a uniform naming convention: mellanfil, lättfil, långfil. Hence, långfil became the more popular term. (Mellanfilmjölk and långfilmjölk are too long to fit on a label without having to split the name up into two lines, which I can image was the reason for using mellanfil or långfil instead. Besides långmjölk being longer than långfil, they couldn't use långmjölk if they wanted a uniform naming convention since that would mean mellanfilmjölk would be called mellanmjölk, and that name is used for 1.5% milk.)
– panda 00:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, the text about filmjölk on the Canadian Dairy Commission's website Fermented Milk Products and the text in this article were identical or nearly identical before I started to make changes to it on 30 June 2007. Example:
CDC: Fermented Milk Products (Last Modified: 6/6/2007) | Wikipedia ( 22:29, 22 May 2007) |
---|---|
Filmjölk is similar to yogurt or kefir, but it is fermented using different strains of bacteria, giving it a unique flavour. | Fil is similar to yoghurt or kefir, but is fermented by different sets of bacteria that give slightly different taste. |
Filmjölk is eaten in the same way as yogurt, usually from a bowl using a spoon. It is sometimes drunk as a thick beverage. Many people add sugar, jam, applesauce, cinnamon or berries. Cereals, corn flakes or muesli are often added to filmjölk. In northern regions of Sweden , crushed crisp bread is sometimes put into it. | Fil is eaten in the same way as yoghurt, usually from a bowl using a spoon. It can be drunk from a glass, but is a little bit too thick for this to be common practise. Being slightly sour, many people add some sugar, jam, applesauce, cinnamon or berries. Cereals, corn flakes or muesli are often used in it. In northern regions of Sweden, crushed crisp bread is sometimes put into it. |
The text on the Wikipedia site appears to predate the text on the CDC's site. I have since altered the text here quite a lot. apanda 19:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The article's title categorizes several varieties of "extra healthy" filmjölk. It isn't clear what sort of health claims are being made in the article, or that any filmjölk is healthy and that these versions are more so. Some explanation of these health claims, with appropriate citations, might belong here. - Smerdis of Tlön 21:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This really is interesting. I heard that Carl von Linné first wrote about it in Flora Lapponica. If no lactic acid bacteria are on the plant (which would be a obvious explanation especially as plants are the natural habitat of those bacteria), I can only imagine that it is bacteria synthesising protease, which have the effect. I understood that the resulting fil can be used as a starter without further need of the butterwort plant.-- 91.96.47.80 09:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The article claims Arla invented the first flavoured filmjölk in 1997. The source is Arla itself. I recall a probably earlier flavoured by NNP (I think) that was flavoured with blackcurrant. However they exploded so it was recalled. // Liftarn ( talk)
The table of "filmjölk" variants contains "fi-se: Fil[40]". The ISO code "fi-se" means "Finnish as spoken in Sweden", but the link goes to Finland Swedish (sv_fi) instead. ( 212.247.11.156 ( talk) 08:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC))
This article includes a link to Dickmilch, and so do its counterparts on the Swedish and Finnish Wikipedias. However, the German article itself includes wikilinks to soured milk and its equivalent in other languages. Also, (I'm not propagating this as a reliable source, but) the last comment in this strongly suggests that "Dickmilch" in German is not the same thing as filmjölk, and that "filmjölk/villi" is unübersetzbar - untranslatable.
Should that German wikilink be removed, perhaps? Or am I missing something? -- Kuaichik ( talk) 03:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The article says "Swedish-speaking Finns usually use the word surmjölk, which is the older name for filmjölk (also in Sweden) or piimä (in Finnish)". This is not correct. Surmjölk is a different product that is drunk from a glass!
In Finland the Finland-Swedish word FIL (finnish: VIILI) is used instead of FILMJÖLK
SURMJÖLK (finnish: Piimä or Piimämaito) is a different product. It has a more sour taste than Filmjölk and the consistency is less thick. It is usually drunk from a glass (as an alternative to regular milk) and not eaten with spoon like Filmjölk. Pnnielsen ( talk) 15:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
So, is there and difference between filmjolk and buttermilk? It seems like these articles should be merged but maybe I am missing something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litch ( talk • contribs) 07:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Somehwat in keeping with this topic I did see fit to remove the statement declaring something to the effect that it is not the same thing as buttermilk. The entire article preceeding, and the fact that the article exists independent of buttermilk would preclude any indication that the two are identical, though they are undoubably allied. I removed the entire post semicolon text for the above reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.239.172 ( talk) 03:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
It would seem that Viili is the same thing as Filmjoelk, and it should be merged into this article if this is the case. Súrmjólk is stated in this article as being the same as Filmjoelk, so it should definitely be merged into this article. 146.201.141.185 ( talk) 15:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
"It is often used instead of milk within the Nordic countries (and more widely available)" This sentence seems to me imply that filmjölk is more available than milk is, and that is definitely not true. You can get them at the same place, and I'd say Swedes consume more milk than filmjölk on average. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.166 ( talk) 19:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
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Viili is definitely NOT the same as yogurt or the same as the Swedish variety. They all use different yeasts, molds, fungus, or bacteria as starter for the culture.
Villi is specific to Finland and, although Filmjölk is similar, and many Swedes do eat viili, it is definitely not the same thing and does not belong in the category of Swedish foods. I does belong to the cultured milk products category (it does seem that there is a wide enough variety of products in this category to warrant that topic, particularly from a scientific standpoint) and also to the Finnish foods category since it is, in Finnish communities both inside and outside of Finland, seen as an important food reflecting Finnish tradition and heritage. My own ancestors soaked slips in viili, dried them, and packed them in their luggage to bring with them across the ocean to America. There the dried starter was then used to continue daily viili-making in this country.
Read an article on viili here [1]
There is a chart showing starters on this page: [2]
Here is a link to purchase starter cultures: [3]
Crowdesign ( talk) 19:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
If 'Filmjölk' is a form of 'Fil' then should the name of the article (that is mainly about Fil and it's variants) not be Fil? Ciraric 20:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
filmjölk is also often eaten with crushed knäckebröd (still large chunks) in especially the northen part of sweden.
This comment cut and pasted from the talk page of
sour milk:
Avoid non-English titles, especially those with characters not found on the keyboards of English-speaking countries; this is the English Wikipedia, after all. Do not claim a general Nordic food as exclusively Swedish. -- Vuo 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
After a little googling, checking of interwiki links and the help of a nice Finland-Swede describing the content of fi:Piimä, it is obvious that piimä is not fil or filmjölk. Piimä is buttermilk, in Swedish kärnmjölk. Most probably, viili is a very similar product to filmjölk - at least for sure it is a kind of fil. The best way to find out the precise relationship would be to check the species of bacteria - in case you come across Streptococcus lactis it is the same as Lactococcus. I am sure they eat fil also in Norway and Denmark, by the way. If I could move this page to fil I would do it, since filmjölk is a kind of fil, but that space is occupied - and really I think this should be included in a more general page on soured milk products. Or maybe this page should be transformed into Soured milk products of Sweden, to include gräddfil (a bit like smetana) etc. I guess it would be possible to create a page on Nordic fil/viili, also, if someome is interested in doing that. Naming it would be an interesting task, though. / Habj 20:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose moving this page back to
Filmjölk and making
Fil (milk product) a redirect to
Filmjölk. Rationale:
Changing the article's name would also mean that the word fil would need to be replaced with filmjölk in most (but not all) places in the article. I'm happy to make those changes.
How about a time limit of two weeks for comments and objections?
– panda 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a note from a native English speaker (who had a recent conversation with a Swedish friend that brought me to this article).
Sour Milk or Soured Milk, or even the term Fermented Milk will all draw a different conclusion from the average English speaker. Sour Milk is an inherently bad description since it implies gone bad. She asked me what to call it and I told her just to say Yogurt with a different taste, as that is apparently what it's closest too.
I believe Fil or Filmjölk would be the preferred name, and perhaps more emphasis for English speakers that it is a Yogurt with apparently different bacteria used for fermentation.
- Brett Allen (Custodis)
122.148.193.244 14:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Since there weren't any objections to moving the page from Fil (milk product) back to Filmjölk after 2 weeks, I've made the change. panda 05:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
References
If filmjölk is piimä, then its title should not be in a foreign language, because there are English terms, such as cultured buttermilk or sour milk. Maybe the article could be there for some country-specific customs, but not as a general article. Again, if it is Swedish, then it should not contain references to Finnish or German terms, because then these products are different.
Is it common to ferment filmjölk at home? FreplySpang (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Surmjölk in Finland is piimä in Finnish and is what I use as buttermilk when making biscuits, etc. Fil as a word in Swedish in Finland refers solely to a more goopy, glue-like consistency of viili that is sold in small tubs (it's never drunk) like yoghurt. AFAIK the term for it in Sweden is långfil. I've never come across filmjölk in Finland and it was always one of the "complaints" that Swedes had when they came to visit. To make life more interesting then, there's also gräddfil or kermaviili in Finnish, which is a sour-cream-like product. And then there's also smetana and yoghurt. And for what it's worth, viili is not disappearing from the supermarket shelves in Finland. I think this article needs to be drastically improved as it is mixing a number of different milk products into one article and does not discuss the differences between Sweden and Finland (incl. the differences in terms for them, popularity, etc.). - Yupik 16:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Below is a summary of what various fermented milk products are called in Finnish, Finland Swedish, Swedish, and English, according to the following sources:
The different words used in Finland Swedish and Sweden Swedish help explain the confusion over what a Finnish product would be called in Swedish and why a Sweden Swede and Finland Swede have different opinions about what fil and filmjölk are.
Finnish | Finland Swedish | Swedish | English |
---|---|---|---|
-- | -- | filmjölk (short name is fil) | -- |
viili (sold with and without being inoculated with mold, according to Valio) | fil | filbunke | -- |
piimä | surmjölk (a drinkable soured milk product, not as thick as filmjölk) | ? | (cultured) buttermilk? |
pitkäviili | långfil | långfil, långmjölk, etc | -- |
kirnupiimä | kärnmjölk | kärnmjölk | (uncultured) buttermilk |
kermaviili | gräddfil | gräddfil | sour cream without rennet extract or any stabilizer/thickener |
ranskan kerma | crème fraiche | crème fraiche | creme fraiche |
rahka | kvarg, kvark | kvarg, kvark, Arla Kesella | quark (cheese) |
Furthermore, långfil, also known as långmjölk, is a type of filmjölk (see the filmjölk talk page on the Swedish wiki). If there is interest, I can translate the relevant text to English. My hypothesis for the naming scheme: Långfiil may have been called långfilmjölk at one point in time and since that's a pretty long word, got shorted to långfil and långmjölk, with långfil being the one chosen by Arla when they started to market their product in 1965, maybe because it was the shorter name and maybe to maintain a uniform naming convention: mellanfil, lättfil, långfil. Hence, långfil became the more popular term. (Mellanfilmjölk and långfilmjölk are too long to fit on a label without having to split the name up into two lines, which I can image was the reason for using mellanfil or långfil instead. Besides långmjölk being longer than långfil, they couldn't use långmjölk if they wanted a uniform naming convention since that would mean mellanfilmjölk would be called mellanmjölk, and that name is used for 1.5% milk.)
– panda 00:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, the text about filmjölk on the Canadian Dairy Commission's website Fermented Milk Products and the text in this article were identical or nearly identical before I started to make changes to it on 30 June 2007. Example:
CDC: Fermented Milk Products (Last Modified: 6/6/2007) | Wikipedia ( 22:29, 22 May 2007) |
---|---|
Filmjölk is similar to yogurt or kefir, but it is fermented using different strains of bacteria, giving it a unique flavour. | Fil is similar to yoghurt or kefir, but is fermented by different sets of bacteria that give slightly different taste. |
Filmjölk is eaten in the same way as yogurt, usually from a bowl using a spoon. It is sometimes drunk as a thick beverage. Many people add sugar, jam, applesauce, cinnamon or berries. Cereals, corn flakes or muesli are often added to filmjölk. In northern regions of Sweden , crushed crisp bread is sometimes put into it. | Fil is eaten in the same way as yoghurt, usually from a bowl using a spoon. It can be drunk from a glass, but is a little bit too thick for this to be common practise. Being slightly sour, many people add some sugar, jam, applesauce, cinnamon or berries. Cereals, corn flakes or muesli are often used in it. In northern regions of Sweden, crushed crisp bread is sometimes put into it. |
The text on the Wikipedia site appears to predate the text on the CDC's site. I have since altered the text here quite a lot. apanda 19:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The article's title categorizes several varieties of "extra healthy" filmjölk. It isn't clear what sort of health claims are being made in the article, or that any filmjölk is healthy and that these versions are more so. Some explanation of these health claims, with appropriate citations, might belong here. - Smerdis of Tlön 21:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This really is interesting. I heard that Carl von Linné first wrote about it in Flora Lapponica. If no lactic acid bacteria are on the plant (which would be a obvious explanation especially as plants are the natural habitat of those bacteria), I can only imagine that it is bacteria synthesising protease, which have the effect. I understood that the resulting fil can be used as a starter without further need of the butterwort plant.-- 91.96.47.80 09:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The article claims Arla invented the first flavoured filmjölk in 1997. The source is Arla itself. I recall a probably earlier flavoured by NNP (I think) that was flavoured with blackcurrant. However they exploded so it was recalled. // Liftarn ( talk)
The table of "filmjölk" variants contains "fi-se: Fil[40]". The ISO code "fi-se" means "Finnish as spoken in Sweden", but the link goes to Finland Swedish (sv_fi) instead. ( 212.247.11.156 ( talk) 08:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC))
This article includes a link to Dickmilch, and so do its counterparts on the Swedish and Finnish Wikipedias. However, the German article itself includes wikilinks to soured milk and its equivalent in other languages. Also, (I'm not propagating this as a reliable source, but) the last comment in this strongly suggests that "Dickmilch" in German is not the same thing as filmjölk, and that "filmjölk/villi" is unübersetzbar - untranslatable.
Should that German wikilink be removed, perhaps? Or am I missing something? -- Kuaichik ( talk) 03:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The article says "Swedish-speaking Finns usually use the word surmjölk, which is the older name for filmjölk (also in Sweden) or piimä (in Finnish)". This is not correct. Surmjölk is a different product that is drunk from a glass!
In Finland the Finland-Swedish word FIL (finnish: VIILI) is used instead of FILMJÖLK
SURMJÖLK (finnish: Piimä or Piimämaito) is a different product. It has a more sour taste than Filmjölk and the consistency is less thick. It is usually drunk from a glass (as an alternative to regular milk) and not eaten with spoon like Filmjölk. Pnnielsen ( talk) 15:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
So, is there and difference between filmjolk and buttermilk? It seems like these articles should be merged but maybe I am missing something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litch ( talk • contribs) 07:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Somehwat in keeping with this topic I did see fit to remove the statement declaring something to the effect that it is not the same thing as buttermilk. The entire article preceeding, and the fact that the article exists independent of buttermilk would preclude any indication that the two are identical, though they are undoubably allied. I removed the entire post semicolon text for the above reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.239.172 ( talk) 03:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
It would seem that Viili is the same thing as Filmjoelk, and it should be merged into this article if this is the case. Súrmjólk is stated in this article as being the same as Filmjoelk, so it should definitely be merged into this article. 146.201.141.185 ( talk) 15:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
"It is often used instead of milk within the Nordic countries (and more widely available)" This sentence seems to me imply that filmjölk is more available than milk is, and that is definitely not true. You can get them at the same place, and I'd say Swedes consume more milk than filmjölk on average. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.166 ( talk) 19:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
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