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Was Brookside filmized in its latter years? It did seem to have an awkward, cinematic atmosphere that seemed really out of step with its earlier cosy soap feel. jamesgibbon 30 June 2005 23:55 (UTC)
I was a vision engineer at mersey tv from 1984-89, & we certainly did quite a bit of experimental stuff to get the best out of the ENG cameras we shot on back then. it wasn't until CCD sensors were available from about 1986 that we started to play around with light levels & gamma a bit more; prior to this the lighting had to be quite flat to avoid damage to the tubes, while maintaining enough level to keep the video signal from degrading during post; the tapes we sent to C4 (1" c-format) were all two generations down from the raw material; we would make the individual episodes first, then the omnibus was a comp from those, then we made safety dubs of the whole lot, keeping the first gen individual episodes & the third gen omnibus, so that C4 always got the same quality across the showings. periodically, the engineers at C4 would write record-reports complaining about the lighting, which was very natural compared to "coronation street" or "eastenders", not least because of the amount of natural light we were obliged to use in the (real) houses, compared with the studio-grid lighting of almost every other serial drama on tv. with the release of sony's BVP-7 CCD camera, just before we started making "waterfront beat" for BBC1, we found we could manipulate the gamma & even (sometimes) add 3dB of gain before things started to look noisy. we used a piece of nylon stocking on the back element as a diffuser, & this went some way to achieving a more natural look than we'd been used to from the sony 330s. another huge difference was that the CCDs were sharp right into the corners, where with the tube cameras we'd been looking through a port-hole. I had to 'rack' the registration of a 330 on more than one occasion, because of beam-pulling effects. BUT we didn't do anything in post, because back then the technology to do this sort of thing to baseband video was very crude, & would've left us with pictures that were soft, & would've raised eyebrows at C4 & at the IBA, under whose code-of-practice we were working.
by 1988-9, framestores from for-a & quantel were able to do the sort of manipulation the article touches on. in order to maintain the line structure of the normal interlaced PAL signal whilst giving the desired illusion of reduced temporal resolution, the for-a (for example) would discard one whole field's worth of lines & replace it with the opposite field's lines, read out from memory & offset by one line. this reduced the vertical resolution too, of course, but this was a small price to pay for some arty types. a more sophisticated approach would've been to perform motion interpolation between the two fields & create new identical but interlaced output fields using this data. I saw this done too, but not for "brookside"! by the time the show was winding down, it was being cut on non-linear edit seats, & doubtless the realism of the 80s version I worked on had long since fallen away, both in the scripts & in their execution. I can make some enquiries.
duncanrmi ( talk) 15:53, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Merge with Field-removed video?
I don't see that transmission has anything to do with the filmizing process. If you shoot on SD interlaced video, it will still need to be filmized before (or possibly after) being scaled up to HD.
And if you shoot 1080i with a full frame rate, you'd still need to filmize for transmission at (effectively) 1080p (the lines are still encoded and transmitted interlaced but they come together to make a single frame). Of course it'd probably be much easier to shoot on 720p, but then the sentence should say that HD offers the ability to natively [i]shoot[/i] progressive scan video, which some SD cameras already do.
Or have I got something mixed up? David 19:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While it's possible that Home & Away is shot in 1080i50 and filmized to 1080p25, it's also possible that it is shot in 1080p25.
Either one would produce a similar result in 576p50 (seen in Australia) and 576i50 (seen in Australia and UK). Whophd 20:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard this term used in the industry. Can we get some sources? I have heard "get the film look" or more profressionally, "cinematic", but never "I want it filmized". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.55.37 ( talk) 04:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
Surrealroad ( talk) 21:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
An awful name, if I may say so. Why not stick to good old "film look" or "film emulation"? I do this stuff and I have not heard "filmizing" once. It's funny, because Americans are usually the ones to make verbs out of nouns (to google, etc.); this time it's the British. Even funnier is that they opted for the American "-ization" suffix. How times have changed! Speaking of Google...I found 300,000 hits for "film look" and under 2000 hits for filmizing--and I bet half of them are from Wikipedia. I thought maybe this was being unfair since there are more American Web sites than British ones, so I restricted the domain to .uk, and what did I find? "film look" still trumps "filmizing" by a factor of twenty. I think this article should be moved unless a good case is made to the contrary. -- Adoniscik( t, c) 23:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
If the newsgroup uk.tech.broadcast is anything to go by, then the term "filmic effect" (noun) is more common than "filmization". In my experience as a viewer, normal transformation to video of filmed content has few side effects, other than carriage wheels appearing to rotate in the wrong direction. The artificial "filmic effect", on the other hand, often makes the whole production appear as though it was shot under strobe lighting. The article needs to include a full technical description of this type of manipulation of video, and a full description of the consequences. I can watch hundreds of TV channels and only a few are transforming their pictures in this manner. Given that I have no desire to discover whether I have latent photo-epilepsy, it is easier to switch off or change channel, than end up in hospital because some yuppie at the BBC in London has decided that such and such a programme should be broadcast with filmic effect. 149.254.200.224 ( talk) 22:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted, again, the removal of the 2005 series of Doctor Who as a filmized production. The contributor stated:
I presume they were using "filmed" as a simile for "shot" - TV Guide and TV Times aren't exactly trade publications. If you watch Doctor Who Confidential you can see quite clearly that the series is shot on Sony video cameras, and the Outpost Gallifrey FAQ ( http://www.gallifreyone.com/newseriesfaq.php) will tell you the tape format is Betacam.
Or even better, the Doctor Who page itself tells us:
David 10:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This is what i recall being from TV Guide,
Unlike the old Doctor Who series which was shot largely on videotape, the new Doctor Who is entirly filmed
When I have time I am going to go through my collection and find the exact issue and give a direct quote and volume and issue numeber so it can be confirmed. Nevilledad 00:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I think TV Guide was being, for want of a better phrase, simple (and/or mistaken). What better reference do you need than behind-the-scenes footage from Doctor Who Confidential showing Sony DigiBeta cameras being used to record the new series? And, come to think of it, one of the old WhoSpy photos on the website was of a box of videotapes (which I thought were DVCPro at the time). David 11:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I query this bit:
The 1970s BBC TV show Porridge provides a stark example of the visual differences between film and videotape. The show employed videotape for scenes inside Fletch's cell, whereas film was used for scenes outside of the cell. The difference in lighting style and frame rate is very noticeable [1].
Reason is that it really isn't that notable. It was very common for UK (and Australian) television productions of the 1960s through to the late 1970s to use the integrated method mixing 16mm film location work / videotaped in studio interiors. It is not like Porridge was the only show to do this. Doctor Who, and plenty of comedies like The Goodies, Man About the House all did this. The list goes on and on. Melbn ( talk) 06:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
it's a particularly good example of the technique, though, because the transition from inside the cell to outside on the prison landing was seen often, was noticeably awkward (change in the audio quality too) & all of this during one of the highest rating comedy shows of the 70s.
duncanrmi ( talk) 15:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
1) Apart from being a special effect, what is the purpose of filmizing? To fool viewers into believing a production is more expensive? That it came from Hollywood?
2) Especially, since any conversion will tend to reduce quality, why reduce quality?
3) DOF depends solely on lens, in a still camera. Why does "sensor or format size" enter into it? VistaVision is a resolution and a format -- both this article and VistaVision seem to be confusing "Circle of Confusion" with DOF. Higher resolution gives the potential for a very deep DOF -- but read Depth of field, high resolution simply improves the ability to see something that the lens saw as in focus. If it wasn't focused in the lens, better resolution makes little or no difference. I've changed the article to explain that it's the wider range of usable f-stops that improves DOF options, not the sensor. Piano non troppo ( talk) 08:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
VistaVision was invented to overcome the granularity of film stock and was abandoned when improved film stock was available. As it used twice the size of regular formats it needed actually more light, therefore a wider aperture, which would result in a loss of DOF in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.120.0 ( talk) 08:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
In the second paragraph the article says: "Modern video cameras have reached or surpassed the same dynamic range of film, especially when used in HDR modes." But the [hdr] article says that HDR video does not yet exist except in some special cases. (Time lapse) Should this be removed? Algr ( talk) 08:45, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
The mention of Magic Bullet as a 'common term for grading' seems like a product plug. I certainly don't think it's genuinely a common term for grading, although it's becoming increasingly common for Magic Bullet products to be used to grade at a prosumer level. Six Ways ( talk) 09:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I seriously question whether "filmizing" is an actual industry term or discrete process. A Google search returns no results from industry sources. I've worked in the industry for 7 years (specifically in the camera department, which is responsible for implementing most of the techniques described in this article) and I've never heard anyone use the term before. I also have a BA in film and photography, which I bring up not because it makes me an expert (it doesn't), but because it means I have read many books on filmmaking and I have never seen the term used before in any published text (industry accepted or otherwise).
While I have no doubt that each of the individual techniques described by this article are industry accepted and commonly used, I don't believe that the term "filmizing" is an umbrella term used to describe them all nor is it any specific process. I also don't doubt that there are certain things that can be done to make images originating on video appear more like they originated on film. However, there is no specific process for this. All of the techniques are simply options that a director of photography/cinematographer/videographer has at his/her disposal to use to create a desired look, whether or not he/she is making a daytime soap opera or a feature film.
I think the lack of any use of the term in any of the article's references or external links further backs my position. The BBC source is the reputable reference and it does not use the term "filmizing" nor does it purport that there is any specific process used to make video look like film.
I think this article should be proposed for deletion, but before doing so, I'd like to gather a consensus from other editors and see if anyone can present any industry source that uses the term.
I'm going to give it a week and if I haven't heard any objections, I'll propose it for deletion. Filmnuts ( talk) 20:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Now that this has gone through another deletion nomination and the consensus was keep, this article needs some SERIOUS work. References, Copyediting, and fact checking. NickCochrane ( talk) 23:12, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The article begins by stating "Film look (also known as filmizing or film-look) is a process in which video images are augmented to appear to have been shot on film." One definition of "augment" is "to add something to (something) in order to improve or complete it."
[2] There are many people who do not believe that this process in any way improves or "completes" a piece of video; many believe it actually degrades the quality of the video.
[3]
[4] Given that Wikipedia is supposed to be objective and unbiased, I would suggest that another phrase be substituted for "video images are augmented." Perhaps a more neutral phrase such as "video images are altered in overall appearance." I would like to obtain the opinion of other editors before I make this change.
Richard27182 (
talk)
23:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
The article begins with the sentence:
I would like to add the sentence:
Is there anyone who would object to my doing this?
Richard27182 (
talk)
23:41, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Since there have been no responses, I've gone ahead and made the change. If anyone disagrees with my contribution, please discuss it here; we can probably work out a compromise.
Richard27182 (
talk)
10:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
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If it is then they have really done an amazing job to make me convinced that it's shot on actual film. 2A02:C7F:2417:A800:69F7:E4EB:F6B9:BA90 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Film look article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 15 April 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 27 January 2013. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
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Was Brookside filmized in its latter years? It did seem to have an awkward, cinematic atmosphere that seemed really out of step with its earlier cosy soap feel. jamesgibbon 30 June 2005 23:55 (UTC)
I was a vision engineer at mersey tv from 1984-89, & we certainly did quite a bit of experimental stuff to get the best out of the ENG cameras we shot on back then. it wasn't until CCD sensors were available from about 1986 that we started to play around with light levels & gamma a bit more; prior to this the lighting had to be quite flat to avoid damage to the tubes, while maintaining enough level to keep the video signal from degrading during post; the tapes we sent to C4 (1" c-format) were all two generations down from the raw material; we would make the individual episodes first, then the omnibus was a comp from those, then we made safety dubs of the whole lot, keeping the first gen individual episodes & the third gen omnibus, so that C4 always got the same quality across the showings. periodically, the engineers at C4 would write record-reports complaining about the lighting, which was very natural compared to "coronation street" or "eastenders", not least because of the amount of natural light we were obliged to use in the (real) houses, compared with the studio-grid lighting of almost every other serial drama on tv. with the release of sony's BVP-7 CCD camera, just before we started making "waterfront beat" for BBC1, we found we could manipulate the gamma & even (sometimes) add 3dB of gain before things started to look noisy. we used a piece of nylon stocking on the back element as a diffuser, & this went some way to achieving a more natural look than we'd been used to from the sony 330s. another huge difference was that the CCDs were sharp right into the corners, where with the tube cameras we'd been looking through a port-hole. I had to 'rack' the registration of a 330 on more than one occasion, because of beam-pulling effects. BUT we didn't do anything in post, because back then the technology to do this sort of thing to baseband video was very crude, & would've left us with pictures that were soft, & would've raised eyebrows at C4 & at the IBA, under whose code-of-practice we were working.
by 1988-9, framestores from for-a & quantel were able to do the sort of manipulation the article touches on. in order to maintain the line structure of the normal interlaced PAL signal whilst giving the desired illusion of reduced temporal resolution, the for-a (for example) would discard one whole field's worth of lines & replace it with the opposite field's lines, read out from memory & offset by one line. this reduced the vertical resolution too, of course, but this was a small price to pay for some arty types. a more sophisticated approach would've been to perform motion interpolation between the two fields & create new identical but interlaced output fields using this data. I saw this done too, but not for "brookside"! by the time the show was winding down, it was being cut on non-linear edit seats, & doubtless the realism of the 80s version I worked on had long since fallen away, both in the scripts & in their execution. I can make some enquiries.
duncanrmi ( talk) 15:53, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Merge with Field-removed video?
I don't see that transmission has anything to do with the filmizing process. If you shoot on SD interlaced video, it will still need to be filmized before (or possibly after) being scaled up to HD.
And if you shoot 1080i with a full frame rate, you'd still need to filmize for transmission at (effectively) 1080p (the lines are still encoded and transmitted interlaced but they come together to make a single frame). Of course it'd probably be much easier to shoot on 720p, but then the sentence should say that HD offers the ability to natively [i]shoot[/i] progressive scan video, which some SD cameras already do.
Or have I got something mixed up? David 19:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
While it's possible that Home & Away is shot in 1080i50 and filmized to 1080p25, it's also possible that it is shot in 1080p25.
Either one would produce a similar result in 576p50 (seen in Australia) and 576i50 (seen in Australia and UK). Whophd 20:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard this term used in the industry. Can we get some sources? I have heard "get the film look" or more profressionally, "cinematic", but never "I want it filmized". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.55.37 ( talk) 04:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
Surrealroad ( talk) 21:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
An awful name, if I may say so. Why not stick to good old "film look" or "film emulation"? I do this stuff and I have not heard "filmizing" once. It's funny, because Americans are usually the ones to make verbs out of nouns (to google, etc.); this time it's the British. Even funnier is that they opted for the American "-ization" suffix. How times have changed! Speaking of Google...I found 300,000 hits for "film look" and under 2000 hits for filmizing--and I bet half of them are from Wikipedia. I thought maybe this was being unfair since there are more American Web sites than British ones, so I restricted the domain to .uk, and what did I find? "film look" still trumps "filmizing" by a factor of twenty. I think this article should be moved unless a good case is made to the contrary. -- Adoniscik( t, c) 23:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
If the newsgroup uk.tech.broadcast is anything to go by, then the term "filmic effect" (noun) is more common than "filmization". In my experience as a viewer, normal transformation to video of filmed content has few side effects, other than carriage wheels appearing to rotate in the wrong direction. The artificial "filmic effect", on the other hand, often makes the whole production appear as though it was shot under strobe lighting. The article needs to include a full technical description of this type of manipulation of video, and a full description of the consequences. I can watch hundreds of TV channels and only a few are transforming their pictures in this manner. Given that I have no desire to discover whether I have latent photo-epilepsy, it is easier to switch off or change channel, than end up in hospital because some yuppie at the BBC in London has decided that such and such a programme should be broadcast with filmic effect. 149.254.200.224 ( talk) 22:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted, again, the removal of the 2005 series of Doctor Who as a filmized production. The contributor stated:
I presume they were using "filmed" as a simile for "shot" - TV Guide and TV Times aren't exactly trade publications. If you watch Doctor Who Confidential you can see quite clearly that the series is shot on Sony video cameras, and the Outpost Gallifrey FAQ ( http://www.gallifreyone.com/newseriesfaq.php) will tell you the tape format is Betacam.
Or even better, the Doctor Who page itself tells us:
David 10:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This is what i recall being from TV Guide,
Unlike the old Doctor Who series which was shot largely on videotape, the new Doctor Who is entirly filmed
When I have time I am going to go through my collection and find the exact issue and give a direct quote and volume and issue numeber so it can be confirmed. Nevilledad 00:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I think TV Guide was being, for want of a better phrase, simple (and/or mistaken). What better reference do you need than behind-the-scenes footage from Doctor Who Confidential showing Sony DigiBeta cameras being used to record the new series? And, come to think of it, one of the old WhoSpy photos on the website was of a box of videotapes (which I thought were DVCPro at the time). David 11:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I query this bit:
The 1970s BBC TV show Porridge provides a stark example of the visual differences between film and videotape. The show employed videotape for scenes inside Fletch's cell, whereas film was used for scenes outside of the cell. The difference in lighting style and frame rate is very noticeable [1].
Reason is that it really isn't that notable. It was very common for UK (and Australian) television productions of the 1960s through to the late 1970s to use the integrated method mixing 16mm film location work / videotaped in studio interiors. It is not like Porridge was the only show to do this. Doctor Who, and plenty of comedies like The Goodies, Man About the House all did this. The list goes on and on. Melbn ( talk) 06:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
it's a particularly good example of the technique, though, because the transition from inside the cell to outside on the prison landing was seen often, was noticeably awkward (change in the audio quality too) & all of this during one of the highest rating comedy shows of the 70s.
duncanrmi ( talk) 15:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
1) Apart from being a special effect, what is the purpose of filmizing? To fool viewers into believing a production is more expensive? That it came from Hollywood?
2) Especially, since any conversion will tend to reduce quality, why reduce quality?
3) DOF depends solely on lens, in a still camera. Why does "sensor or format size" enter into it? VistaVision is a resolution and a format -- both this article and VistaVision seem to be confusing "Circle of Confusion" with DOF. Higher resolution gives the potential for a very deep DOF -- but read Depth of field, high resolution simply improves the ability to see something that the lens saw as in focus. If it wasn't focused in the lens, better resolution makes little or no difference. I've changed the article to explain that it's the wider range of usable f-stops that improves DOF options, not the sensor. Piano non troppo ( talk) 08:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
VistaVision was invented to overcome the granularity of film stock and was abandoned when improved film stock was available. As it used twice the size of regular formats it needed actually more light, therefore a wider aperture, which would result in a loss of DOF in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.120.0 ( talk) 08:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
In the second paragraph the article says: "Modern video cameras have reached or surpassed the same dynamic range of film, especially when used in HDR modes." But the [hdr] article says that HDR video does not yet exist except in some special cases. (Time lapse) Should this be removed? Algr ( talk) 08:45, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
The mention of Magic Bullet as a 'common term for grading' seems like a product plug. I certainly don't think it's genuinely a common term for grading, although it's becoming increasingly common for Magic Bullet products to be used to grade at a prosumer level. Six Ways ( talk) 09:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I seriously question whether "filmizing" is an actual industry term or discrete process. A Google search returns no results from industry sources. I've worked in the industry for 7 years (specifically in the camera department, which is responsible for implementing most of the techniques described in this article) and I've never heard anyone use the term before. I also have a BA in film and photography, which I bring up not because it makes me an expert (it doesn't), but because it means I have read many books on filmmaking and I have never seen the term used before in any published text (industry accepted or otherwise).
While I have no doubt that each of the individual techniques described by this article are industry accepted and commonly used, I don't believe that the term "filmizing" is an umbrella term used to describe them all nor is it any specific process. I also don't doubt that there are certain things that can be done to make images originating on video appear more like they originated on film. However, there is no specific process for this. All of the techniques are simply options that a director of photography/cinematographer/videographer has at his/her disposal to use to create a desired look, whether or not he/she is making a daytime soap opera or a feature film.
I think the lack of any use of the term in any of the article's references or external links further backs my position. The BBC source is the reputable reference and it does not use the term "filmizing" nor does it purport that there is any specific process used to make video look like film.
I think this article should be proposed for deletion, but before doing so, I'd like to gather a consensus from other editors and see if anyone can present any industry source that uses the term.
I'm going to give it a week and if I haven't heard any objections, I'll propose it for deletion. Filmnuts ( talk) 20:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Now that this has gone through another deletion nomination and the consensus was keep, this article needs some SERIOUS work. References, Copyediting, and fact checking. NickCochrane ( talk) 23:12, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The article begins by stating "Film look (also known as filmizing or film-look) is a process in which video images are augmented to appear to have been shot on film." One definition of "augment" is "to add something to (something) in order to improve or complete it."
[2] There are many people who do not believe that this process in any way improves or "completes" a piece of video; many believe it actually degrades the quality of the video.
[3]
[4] Given that Wikipedia is supposed to be objective and unbiased, I would suggest that another phrase be substituted for "video images are augmented." Perhaps a more neutral phrase such as "video images are altered in overall appearance." I would like to obtain the opinion of other editors before I make this change.
Richard27182 (
talk)
23:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
The article begins with the sentence:
I would like to add the sentence:
Is there anyone who would object to my doing this?
Richard27182 (
talk)
23:41, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Since there have been no responses, I've gone ahead and made the change. If anyone disagrees with my contribution, please discuss it here; we can probably work out a compromise.
Richard27182 (
talk)
10:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
References
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cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Film look. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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If it is then they have really done an amazing job to make me convinced that it's shot on actual film. 2A02:C7F:2417:A800:69F7:E4EB:F6B9:BA90 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)