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Archive 1 Say you are Filipino. If you were to fill out an official electronic form (The profile on Myspace for example) that had the choices where it says ethnicity: Asian, Hispanic, and Pacific Islander, along with white, black, Middle Eastern, and Native American (but not the choice "other" for any reason, forced or not, except in more defined interracial cases) and could only pick one, which one would you have to pick? This might be a hard decision, especially based on which group(s) you identify with the most. -- Geopgeop 11:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC) P.S. If you can condense this whole thing into something easier to comprehend, and do, thanks. -- Geopgeop 11:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I noticed you made some additions to the article. I was wondering if you could put your reference into the reference section please. Thanks. -- Chris 09:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Redirects here without further comment. What is this term and what are its origins? Bastie 19:42, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am confused about why some of the words here use a Ph- [name of the country] and others use an F-. How did this come about? Anon 9 November 2005
Actually the real filipinos are the ones that live in the mountain and look black. They are the ones that are the real filipinos. The now filipinos are mixed into 3 main mix and it's spanish, chinese, hindu (not alot and most are around mindanao.). They are a mix of them but it can't be said that they are one. This is why it's better off they call them selves filipino instead of saying they are a mix of something when it's been mixed a long time ago. Also just because they adopted the spanish language does not mean anything. To think that after a few mixing and years of being what they are, it's best to say that they are Filipino.
Al-Andalus,
I think you are misinterpreting the notion of ethnicity and ethnic groups. Ethnic groups is not limited to bloodlines which is what I believe your definition of it is. Ethnicity refers to culture, language, religion, and/or mutual perceptions of their origins. It is an encompassing term, which is why it was not necessary to put "linguistically" and "consanguineously."
In any case, please do not remove the Hispanics. Much of our culture and language is influenced by Spain, so this is why we are related to Hispanics. It's very funny, I was just in a debate on a mailing list with other Filipinos and Latinos who think that Filipinos are Hispanic. I am very much against that view.
And please don't remove the bit about Johann Friedrich. I have just completed a very enlightening course on anthropology at my college, which is the basis for my contributions to this page. I learned more about why racial classifications such as Malay are no good and I learned about Friedrich's definition of what is a Malay. -- Chris S. 13:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Arabs are related by language, but also by customs, mores, etc. (and in their case not religion, as there are Arab Christians, Muslims and Jews). But Filipinos are not related to Polynesians by language. They are "related" to them by belonging to the same language family, which is entirely different. The Austronesian language family is the widest branching language familiy on earth. To include them is rediculous. As for the Hispanic thing, to mention the "extremist" hispano-filipino frienshdip group was an error. These people dismiss the Philippines is even native, but at the same time propose introducing the teaching of Spanish in the Philipines, and Hispanizing the coutnry (which wouldn't be necessary if it were a Hispanic nation in the first place). As pointed out from the Arab example, religious tradition has nothing to do with relations, and this is the main reason given ass for listing Hispanics as a "related ethnic group". And once again, I ask of you to consider the Moros, Igorot, Aeta, etc, who have none of the Hispanic veneer you talk about. Modernday Filipinos have more outwardly American influences than Hispanics ones, and they speak English. If you insist on listing Hispanic and Polynesians, I will list Americans and Canadians. Al-Andalus 23:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC).
"Listing Americans and Canadians is not entirely accurate"? Of course it is not. That is the point. Nor is it accurate to list Hispanics. "For one thing, those with American influence is mainly limited to the urban centers." What proportion of the population of the Philippines is now urban based? The majority. In the last half century alone, American culture has permeated through the media (television, film and print) and schooling more than Hispanic culture did in three centuries. And that more recent and ongoing American influence goes beyond the urban centres. "They do not make up the majority of Filipinos." I'm sorry, but they do. "On the other hand, the vast majority of Filipinos come from ethnic groups which were heavily impacted and influenced by Hispanic culture." Influenced? indeed. Heavily? The truth is, Hispanic cultural influence did not change the basic foundations of all of the Philippine cultures and people it encountered. "This does not make us Hispanic", I'm not saying that you have suggested such a thing. "but there is a relationship between Filipinos and Hispanics". Yes, and I have not denied this either. I AGREE with you There is A relationship, but to go from there and suggest they are related "ethnic groups" is streatching said "relationship". There is also a long spanning and ongoing relationship with China, which in many fundamental aspects of Filipino culture, actually forms pilars of Filipino ways of life and in cuisine as well. And in fact, apart from the identifiably and identified Chinese-mestizo and Filipino Chinese minority, many Filipinos have some residual Chinese ancestry - unlike those outside the oficial and identifiable Spanish-mestizo and Spanish Filipino minority (1%) who have residual Spanish ancestry (3.6%). And as already stated there is a bigger, more influenced, and more contemporary relationship with America. We must see this for what is it; the pushing of a POV. Why not also put Guam, they also share a history of Spanish colonization and cultural imposition, and Spanish loan words on their indigenous languages (which are in fact Austronesian language). In fact, the Guamanians would be better fit the post of a "related ethnic group" to Filipinos. Al-Andalus 05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
We should have a discussion that involves more than just the two of us to see which groups should be included as related ethnic groups;
Al-Andalus 05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC).
Hello! Regarding the template design, why choose three images that are pictures of people of hill-tribe origin (Ifugao, Mangyan, and T'boli)? Isn't it a bit misrepresentation of the Filipino people? As much as Statistics is concerned, only 10% of the Philippine Population are people belonging to various Hilltribe designations, and the vast majority belong to the Mainstream Lowland Filipino groups. I think it would be better if there was only one picture of a hill-tribe person and two other from the Mainstream Filipinos (such as the Filipino Muslims and the Filipino Chinese-- User:Matthewprc 04:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Worldwide Filipinos form the largest ethnic group in the Northern Marianas Islands, the second largest in both Palau and Guam, and the second largest Asian group in the United States. They also form significant minorities in Canada, Australia, Japan, Israel, and Germany.
??????
I'm not sure what is trying to be said here, but the wording should be cleaned up.
Hey, who removed the figures for 'Filipinos Elsewhere'!?! -Isao
The present History of the article only discusses about the mainstream ethnic Filipinos. The one you reverted discusses entirely the History of the Filipino people including the several ethnicities [e.g., Australoid-Sakai, Proto-Austronesian] that came to the Philippines. And also, as you said in your discussion with Al-Andalus, to use the term Malay is 'no good'. Thus, to show equality between the 'Malays' of Malaysia, Indonesian ethnic groups, and the Filipino people, we use Austronesian. If the ancestors of today's Indo-European speaking peoples are simply referred to as 'Indo-European',why not also do the same for 'Austronesians'? : )
To Al-Andalus, regarding the 'related ethnic groups', you yourself saw in the site: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2001_v68_p432.pdf that the Filipino people is of three genetic classifications: Formosan (hence, Austronesian), Chinese (which by the way,is more larger than the Austronesian proportion),and Western European(by historical facts, this can be translated to 'Spanish'). So, please do not vandalize the article by removing the "Chinese" and the "Spanish" from the related ethnic groups. Also, it would be more proper to put Taiwanese Aborigines (95% Austronesian) in the related ethnic groups,and not Malaysian (which are only 25% Austronesian-see link)-- Matthewprc 00:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Of course, that is a tiny frequency mark, but that's beyond the concept. What is important that Filipinos in general, have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes in their chromosomes, and however small a 3.6% is, it should still be included to maintain the objectivity of an article. And also furthermore, several accounts such as that of Craig state that in Luzon, the population of the 'Pure Indians'(i.e., Filipinos) are 45,000, the 'Half-Castes' are 35,000, and the 'Spaniards' at 25,000, and that in Mallat: 'you will never find an ugly face in Laguna due to its proximity to the capital and to the abundance of Spanish blood in them' but you deleted the entire thing. Remember the article Demographics of the Philippines by other sources? And furthermore, please stop putting proportions such as 95% or whateverpopulation to denote the proportion of Austronesians in the country. As far as I know, there are no statistical studies in the Philippines that count people by ancestry or race (since the Philippine National Statistics Office are gearedprimairly on economy).:) - Mthwprc 05:04, 08 February 2006(UTC)
Quote:
"It means, in a 100% of samples, there is a 3.6% chance that you can find a Spanish gene. Of course, that is a tiny frequency mark, but that's beyond the concept. What is important that Filipinos in general, have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes in their chromosomes"
If the chances of any given Filipino of having Spanish genes is 3.6%, then how can you maintain a that Filipinos in general have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes? Again, it is not Filipinos in general that were found to have Spanish ancestry - it was only 3.6% of Filipinos (or 3.6 in every 100, or 36 in every 1000, however you want to put it).
In genetic research on the ancestry of White Americans by Mark D. Shriver, around 30% showed as possessing some African ancestry, and the other 70% did not. Among the 30% who did possess African genes, the black admixture was "at an average of 2.3%" [1]. This fact does not make it correct to say that White Americans in general have been found to possess African ancestry (because only 30% of White Americans actually had African ancestry). If one really wanted to give a figure on the average African admixture for the ENTIRE White American population (including even those who did not have any African ancestry, which were the majority) then that "2.3% average" for those who did have the admixture must be distributed among those who didn't have the admixture, makeing the admixture even smaller. Then what could be said is that "among all self-identified whites...the average black admixture is 0.7%" [2] (but saying this is a bit deceptive, since those actually with the admixture are not all of White Americans, and the average admixture among those that actually did have the admixture was higher than 0.7%).
Now to put it all into context. Off 100 Filipinos, 4 (4 of 100 is 4%, but the percentage was actuality 3.6%, but let's say 4% for numeric convenience) have shown to possess some Spanish ancestry, the other 96% did not. Among the 4% who did possess Spanish genes, the average Spanish admixture in them was not even given (but as an example, let's asume that the average Spanish admixture was 50%). This fact does not make it correct to say that Filipinos in general have been found to possess Spanish ancestry. If one really wanted to give a figure on the average Spanish admixture for the ENTIRE Filipino population (including even those who did not have any Spanish ancestry, which were the majority) then that "50% average" for those who did have the admixture must be distributed among those who didn't have the admixture, makeing the admixture even smaller. Then what could be said is that "among all Filipinos...the average Spanish admixture is 0.1%". (but saying this is a bit deceptive, since those actually with the admixture are not all Filipinos, and the average admixture among those that actually did have the admixture was higher than 0.1%) Al-Andalus 13:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I just want to repeat what Chris said about Ethnicity . It is all the ancestral, linguistic, cultural, ideas about common history, religious, etc. bases for one's identitiy. So it is clear why Hispanics are included. - Isao
It seems that Mattewprc seems to focusing on the "foreign" haplogroup which wasn't the intention of the research. This is one of those "I found something to use" in order to support their evidence.
Mtthew, I think you're better of contacting the researchers themselves or at least the genetics dept. at Standford Univ. who was responsible for putting out this research. There were 3 haplogroups identified (not counting the foreign haplogroup which you are arguing over) and their origins as this entire report seems to focus on are on the indigenous people who had been in existence in the area prior to the other migrations. The 3% which you imply applies to all Filipinos having Spanish ancestry is incorrect because had you read the report in its entirety, you would have seen how they mentioned that other options should not be ruled out based on their findings. The purpose of this was to dispell the thought of the "express train" theory and to prove that people have been living in these areas far before the so called express train route began. Most importantly exchange in cultural technology took place but as proven in the y-chromosomes, not the people. 66.215.18.34
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 Say you are Filipino. If you were to fill out an official electronic form (The profile on Myspace for example) that had the choices where it says ethnicity: Asian, Hispanic, and Pacific Islander, along with white, black, Middle Eastern, and Native American (but not the choice "other" for any reason, forced or not, except in more defined interracial cases) and could only pick one, which one would you have to pick? This might be a hard decision, especially based on which group(s) you identify with the most. -- Geopgeop 11:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC) P.S. If you can condense this whole thing into something easier to comprehend, and do, thanks. -- Geopgeop 11:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I noticed you made some additions to the article. I was wondering if you could put your reference into the reference section please. Thanks. -- Chris 09:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Redirects here without further comment. What is this term and what are its origins? Bastie 19:42, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I am confused about why some of the words here use a Ph- [name of the country] and others use an F-. How did this come about? Anon 9 November 2005
Actually the real filipinos are the ones that live in the mountain and look black. They are the ones that are the real filipinos. The now filipinos are mixed into 3 main mix and it's spanish, chinese, hindu (not alot and most are around mindanao.). They are a mix of them but it can't be said that they are one. This is why it's better off they call them selves filipino instead of saying they are a mix of something when it's been mixed a long time ago. Also just because they adopted the spanish language does not mean anything. To think that after a few mixing and years of being what they are, it's best to say that they are Filipino.
Al-Andalus,
I think you are misinterpreting the notion of ethnicity and ethnic groups. Ethnic groups is not limited to bloodlines which is what I believe your definition of it is. Ethnicity refers to culture, language, religion, and/or mutual perceptions of their origins. It is an encompassing term, which is why it was not necessary to put "linguistically" and "consanguineously."
In any case, please do not remove the Hispanics. Much of our culture and language is influenced by Spain, so this is why we are related to Hispanics. It's very funny, I was just in a debate on a mailing list with other Filipinos and Latinos who think that Filipinos are Hispanic. I am very much against that view.
And please don't remove the bit about Johann Friedrich. I have just completed a very enlightening course on anthropology at my college, which is the basis for my contributions to this page. I learned more about why racial classifications such as Malay are no good and I learned about Friedrich's definition of what is a Malay. -- Chris S. 13:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Arabs are related by language, but also by customs, mores, etc. (and in their case not religion, as there are Arab Christians, Muslims and Jews). But Filipinos are not related to Polynesians by language. They are "related" to them by belonging to the same language family, which is entirely different. The Austronesian language family is the widest branching language familiy on earth. To include them is rediculous. As for the Hispanic thing, to mention the "extremist" hispano-filipino frienshdip group was an error. These people dismiss the Philippines is even native, but at the same time propose introducing the teaching of Spanish in the Philipines, and Hispanizing the coutnry (which wouldn't be necessary if it were a Hispanic nation in the first place). As pointed out from the Arab example, religious tradition has nothing to do with relations, and this is the main reason given ass for listing Hispanics as a "related ethnic group". And once again, I ask of you to consider the Moros, Igorot, Aeta, etc, who have none of the Hispanic veneer you talk about. Modernday Filipinos have more outwardly American influences than Hispanics ones, and they speak English. If you insist on listing Hispanic and Polynesians, I will list Americans and Canadians. Al-Andalus 23:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC).
"Listing Americans and Canadians is not entirely accurate"? Of course it is not. That is the point. Nor is it accurate to list Hispanics. "For one thing, those with American influence is mainly limited to the urban centers." What proportion of the population of the Philippines is now urban based? The majority. In the last half century alone, American culture has permeated through the media (television, film and print) and schooling more than Hispanic culture did in three centuries. And that more recent and ongoing American influence goes beyond the urban centres. "They do not make up the majority of Filipinos." I'm sorry, but they do. "On the other hand, the vast majority of Filipinos come from ethnic groups which were heavily impacted and influenced by Hispanic culture." Influenced? indeed. Heavily? The truth is, Hispanic cultural influence did not change the basic foundations of all of the Philippine cultures and people it encountered. "This does not make us Hispanic", I'm not saying that you have suggested such a thing. "but there is a relationship between Filipinos and Hispanics". Yes, and I have not denied this either. I AGREE with you There is A relationship, but to go from there and suggest they are related "ethnic groups" is streatching said "relationship". There is also a long spanning and ongoing relationship with China, which in many fundamental aspects of Filipino culture, actually forms pilars of Filipino ways of life and in cuisine as well. And in fact, apart from the identifiably and identified Chinese-mestizo and Filipino Chinese minority, many Filipinos have some residual Chinese ancestry - unlike those outside the oficial and identifiable Spanish-mestizo and Spanish Filipino minority (1%) who have residual Spanish ancestry (3.6%). And as already stated there is a bigger, more influenced, and more contemporary relationship with America. We must see this for what is it; the pushing of a POV. Why not also put Guam, they also share a history of Spanish colonization and cultural imposition, and Spanish loan words on their indigenous languages (which are in fact Austronesian language). In fact, the Guamanians would be better fit the post of a "related ethnic group" to Filipinos. Al-Andalus 05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
We should have a discussion that involves more than just the two of us to see which groups should be included as related ethnic groups;
Al-Andalus 05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC).
Hello! Regarding the template design, why choose three images that are pictures of people of hill-tribe origin (Ifugao, Mangyan, and T'boli)? Isn't it a bit misrepresentation of the Filipino people? As much as Statistics is concerned, only 10% of the Philippine Population are people belonging to various Hilltribe designations, and the vast majority belong to the Mainstream Lowland Filipino groups. I think it would be better if there was only one picture of a hill-tribe person and two other from the Mainstream Filipinos (such as the Filipino Muslims and the Filipino Chinese-- User:Matthewprc 04:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Worldwide Filipinos form the largest ethnic group in the Northern Marianas Islands, the second largest in both Palau and Guam, and the second largest Asian group in the United States. They also form significant minorities in Canada, Australia, Japan, Israel, and Germany.
??????
I'm not sure what is trying to be said here, but the wording should be cleaned up.
Hey, who removed the figures for 'Filipinos Elsewhere'!?! -Isao
The present History of the article only discusses about the mainstream ethnic Filipinos. The one you reverted discusses entirely the History of the Filipino people including the several ethnicities [e.g., Australoid-Sakai, Proto-Austronesian] that came to the Philippines. And also, as you said in your discussion with Al-Andalus, to use the term Malay is 'no good'. Thus, to show equality between the 'Malays' of Malaysia, Indonesian ethnic groups, and the Filipino people, we use Austronesian. If the ancestors of today's Indo-European speaking peoples are simply referred to as 'Indo-European',why not also do the same for 'Austronesians'? : )
To Al-Andalus, regarding the 'related ethnic groups', you yourself saw in the site: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2001_v68_p432.pdf that the Filipino people is of three genetic classifications: Formosan (hence, Austronesian), Chinese (which by the way,is more larger than the Austronesian proportion),and Western European(by historical facts, this can be translated to 'Spanish'). So, please do not vandalize the article by removing the "Chinese" and the "Spanish" from the related ethnic groups. Also, it would be more proper to put Taiwanese Aborigines (95% Austronesian) in the related ethnic groups,and not Malaysian (which are only 25% Austronesian-see link)-- Matthewprc 00:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Of course, that is a tiny frequency mark, but that's beyond the concept. What is important that Filipinos in general, have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes in their chromosomes, and however small a 3.6% is, it should still be included to maintain the objectivity of an article. And also furthermore, several accounts such as that of Craig state that in Luzon, the population of the 'Pure Indians'(i.e., Filipinos) are 45,000, the 'Half-Castes' are 35,000, and the 'Spaniards' at 25,000, and that in Mallat: 'you will never find an ugly face in Laguna due to its proximity to the capital and to the abundance of Spanish blood in them' but you deleted the entire thing. Remember the article Demographics of the Philippines by other sources? And furthermore, please stop putting proportions such as 95% or whateverpopulation to denote the proportion of Austronesians in the country. As far as I know, there are no statistical studies in the Philippines that count people by ancestry or race (since the Philippine National Statistics Office are gearedprimairly on economy).:) - Mthwprc 05:04, 08 February 2006(UTC)
Quote:
"It means, in a 100% of samples, there is a 3.6% chance that you can find a Spanish gene. Of course, that is a tiny frequency mark, but that's beyond the concept. What is important that Filipinos in general, have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes in their chromosomes"
If the chances of any given Filipino of having Spanish genes is 3.6%, then how can you maintain a that Filipinos in general have been found to possess Chinese, Taiwanese aborigine, and Spanish genes? Again, it is not Filipinos in general that were found to have Spanish ancestry - it was only 3.6% of Filipinos (or 3.6 in every 100, or 36 in every 1000, however you want to put it).
In genetic research on the ancestry of White Americans by Mark D. Shriver, around 30% showed as possessing some African ancestry, and the other 70% did not. Among the 30% who did possess African genes, the black admixture was "at an average of 2.3%" [1]. This fact does not make it correct to say that White Americans in general have been found to possess African ancestry (because only 30% of White Americans actually had African ancestry). If one really wanted to give a figure on the average African admixture for the ENTIRE White American population (including even those who did not have any African ancestry, which were the majority) then that "2.3% average" for those who did have the admixture must be distributed among those who didn't have the admixture, makeing the admixture even smaller. Then what could be said is that "among all self-identified whites...the average black admixture is 0.7%" [2] (but saying this is a bit deceptive, since those actually with the admixture are not all of White Americans, and the average admixture among those that actually did have the admixture was higher than 0.7%).
Now to put it all into context. Off 100 Filipinos, 4 (4 of 100 is 4%, but the percentage was actuality 3.6%, but let's say 4% for numeric convenience) have shown to possess some Spanish ancestry, the other 96% did not. Among the 4% who did possess Spanish genes, the average Spanish admixture in them was not even given (but as an example, let's asume that the average Spanish admixture was 50%). This fact does not make it correct to say that Filipinos in general have been found to possess Spanish ancestry. If one really wanted to give a figure on the average Spanish admixture for the ENTIRE Filipino population (including even those who did not have any Spanish ancestry, which were the majority) then that "50% average" for those who did have the admixture must be distributed among those who didn't have the admixture, makeing the admixture even smaller. Then what could be said is that "among all Filipinos...the average Spanish admixture is 0.1%". (but saying this is a bit deceptive, since those actually with the admixture are not all Filipinos, and the average admixture among those that actually did have the admixture was higher than 0.1%) Al-Andalus 13:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I just want to repeat what Chris said about Ethnicity . It is all the ancestral, linguistic, cultural, ideas about common history, religious, etc. bases for one's identitiy. So it is clear why Hispanics are included. - Isao
It seems that Mattewprc seems to focusing on the "foreign" haplogroup which wasn't the intention of the research. This is one of those "I found something to use" in order to support their evidence.
Mtthew, I think you're better of contacting the researchers themselves or at least the genetics dept. at Standford Univ. who was responsible for putting out this research. There were 3 haplogroups identified (not counting the foreign haplogroup which you are arguing over) and their origins as this entire report seems to focus on are on the indigenous people who had been in existence in the area prior to the other migrations. The 3% which you imply applies to all Filipinos having Spanish ancestry is incorrect because had you read the report in its entirety, you would have seen how they mentioned that other options should not be ruled out based on their findings. The purpose of this was to dispell the thought of the "express train" theory and to prove that people have been living in these areas far before the so called express train route began. Most importantly exchange in cultural technology took place but as proven in the y-chromosomes, not the people. 66.215.18.34