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Davidcottamosborn: The lady's name was Filipa Moniz Perestrelo, which is the correct Portuguese it was not Felipa Perestrelo y Moniz which is a Spanishized version of her name.
" 8 December 2010 Dougweller (talk | contribs) (3,670 bytes) (I wondered about this one, but I doubt that anyone who needs to write their own article at pt.wiki is a reliable source, WP:SPS) (undo)"
I am concerned that you keep removing information that I add as if I am inventing it. I don't understand the comment you made (pasted above) are you saying Manuel Abranches de Soveral, (
http://www.soveral.info/historia.htm ) one of Portugal's trusted genealogists and author of "Sangue Real" is not a reliable source? Or are you insinuating that I am not the reliable source? I apologize if the links do not work, I see no reason why that is happening because it links to Filipa Moniz in
http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=52937 the database of www.geneall.net is one of the worlds most important genealogy sites and very necessary to understand the relationships of the people we mention in this article. I don't see how else to get the information to wiki readers. If I add it, you go delete it as not a reliable source. If I add a reliable source such as Portuguese genealogists from the 17th century you remove it. If I add a link to a current website run by geneaologists, you say I should not link? How then do we add the necessary information to Filipa Moniz's page to show who she truly was in her lifetime?
Colon-el-Nuevo (
talk) 05:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Request for additional comments on inclusion of alternative historical views and proper sourcing thereof. 06:59, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
On page 144 of this book Mr. Rosa shows an image of a document from the Portuguese National Archives known as Torre do Tombo, or TT. The document is cited as "TT, Convento de Santos-o-Novo, Doc. 477. Convento de Santos[-o-Velho], 4-1-1475. Imagen cedida por AN/TT" in whihc is written:
Very Honorable, religious, lady Dona Beatriz de Menenses, superior of the said monastery and Graçia Estévez, Lianor Correa, Catarina Rodriguez, Susana Pereira, Catarina de Valadares, doña Lianor de Meneses, Filipa Moniz, Johana da Silva, Johana de Lordello, Beatriz de Goes and Catarina da Rosa al of them donas (owners or invested) of the said monastery being in committee...
It constitutes reliable proof that Filipa Moniz was thus one of the residents of that Order of Santiago residence.
Colon-el-Nuevo (
talk) 21:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Colón. La Historia Nunca Contada does not meet the requirements for a reliable source. It does not meet the parameters outlined at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Reliable_sources: "Reliable sources on Wikipedia include peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." Furthermore, there is no consensus to allow it as a source in this article. I also feel that the editor Colon-el-Nuevo has a conflict of interest in this topic. — Diiscool ( talk) 17:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I find it amazing that you can both use Rosa as a source for the information in this article and then also describe him as an unreliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.51.158 ( talk) 15:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Even though all the contemporary chronicles and the majority of modern and past historians state he was from Genoa, [1] some non-historians (an information technology analyst [2], an engineer [3], an economist [4], a lawyer [5] [...]) have elaborated alternative hypotheses. They are the new voice of God. What are the historians ? Historians ? Old stuff. Today ? This is the generation of Manuel Rosa. -- 2.33.180.85 ( talk) 09:18, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Morison ? INVENTED ? INVENTED ? Morison. What ? The leading North American authority, Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, the Harvard historian, was the most distinguished writer on Columbus (with Taviani), the author of a multi-volume biography, and was himself a sailor who retraced Columbus’s route across the Atlantic. In his popular book "Admiral of the ocean sea: a life of Christopher Columbus" written in 1942, he writes : The story starts in Genoa with Discoverer's parents.
The History to the Historians.
Manuel Rosa is the latest to join generations of Columbus' "birthers." A Portuguese computer analyst... His sources are unreliable. -- 2.33.180.74 ( talk) 08:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
He won Pulitzer Prizes for Admiral of the Ocean Sea.
Morison was a historian, Rosa an IT person. The History to the Historians. -- 2.33.180.85 ( talk) 15:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
All serious scholars and documents agree, that Columbus was the son of a Genoese weaver; the first person to argue the case for Columbus' birth in Calvi, in the mid-19th century, was a "credulous churchman." See also: Professor Roger Caratini. (He was the greatest French historian of his generation.)
[...] [...] [...] [...] Words are very unnecessary, dear " credulous churchman " -- 2.33.180.100 ( talk) 23:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
= Different categories. = Good Fables. End of conversation. -- 2.33.180.100 ( talk) 00:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Funny, I suppose that "historians" can never be wrong? Oh right, jeesh they are soooooo always correct... Never pressed for time, never skipping documents they cannot read, never plagiarizing, never touting old wives tales as fact,..never...ohh umm...this is soo embarassing. Do I recall being taught from textbooks written by historians that Columbus discovered America? Really? Neat little packages. Oh, and I guess I've -never- heard of "accredited" or "expert" historians having discussions (fights?) about some particular or another..? Or seeing "oops we goofed" being published, in fact more than a few times due to research by *amateur* historians. Glad to see that all the world only exists because of *experts* degree'd in some fancy "ism" or another. Nope, never heard of someone from outside the specialty making critical contributions. Shameless hordes, they should quietly go tend the crops...and let the experts "discover" the truth. Hell, why use Wikipedia when The Truth can only be found in Printed Books. Yeah, use my IP address, I'm more than happy to share my name.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.102.241 ( talk) 09:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
In order to understand Admiral Colón's status in 1479, it is important to understand who he married in 1479. It is also important to understand the customs of his day as well as the bars that existed between nobility and peasants. For that reason I place here the descendants of Colón's father-in-law and who they married. Bartolomeu Perestrelo was a Portuguese-born high noble whose Italian ancestors included the Count Fillipone Langosco, Ruler of Pavia. He was uncle to John II's Mistress, brother-in-law to King Duarte's "nanny" and a Knight of Santiago, member of Prince Henry the Navigator's Household and brother-in-law the the Comendadora-Major of Santiago, Violante Nogueira. His children partnered with the following high Portuguese nobles:
Now lets look at some of the Grandchildren of Bartolomeu Perestrelo, thus the future "Admiral" Colón's nieces and nephews, and who they married:
Filpa Moniz's son married the King of Spain's cousin!!!! The facts are what they are. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 00:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Requesting an uninvolved editor to review the additions to this page and possibly rewrite or redo the article. 19:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
This article is about Filipa Moniz, a lady who's only fame is that she married Christopher Columbus. However, the details of her life, as long as they are documented through available sources, should be included. I am trying to add new information that better highlights Filipa's life, her social position and family connections in Portugal. To do that, I have included material gathered from various sources including Portuguese genealogies, history books and academic publications. Therefore, I feel that there is no need in censoring these details as David1941 continuously tries to do.
Many of these sources are in Portuguese, which I admit is not readily available to non-Portuguese readers, however, one would expect that the Portuguese books contain details that for the most part carry higher accuracy relating to Portuguese subjects and historical figures, than books written by non-Portuguese, or by those who never delved into the specific subject.
In regards to Filipa's social position, one must take into account her father's elite status as well as her whole family's posts, positions, titles and status. As many know, nobility was not just a description of someone. Furthermore, Filipa's connection to the Portuguese Military Order of Santiago is paramount to her identity and life. Members of Santiago were the elite nobles of the kingdom and had to folow the order's rules and regulations. In this subject, one must look to Prof. Joel Silva Ferreira Mata who spent decades researching the Santiago order and has written much especially about the All-Saints " Commandery" where Filipa lived. All these references I have added to the article.
I have also added an image of the place she was buried at:
The Editor named 2.33.180.100, alias Davide1941, alias Davide41 is self-described as a historian and teacher linked to Roma University, and is acting like the protector of a static Filipa page where no knew information should be added.
I feel the elements I have added are important and pertinent to a well-rounded article about Filipa Moniz. I would ask that some other editor take over this task to edit, re-write or revamp the article. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 16:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Requesting an uninvolved editor to review the additions made to this article and possibly rewrite or redo the article. The editor who keeps reverting the article seems to be unwilling to add any new sourced information. Please see the "Requesting Editors Who Wish to Resolve/Revamp Article" entry on the this page this one for more details Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 19:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
It is a sign of the times brought on by Manuel Rosa's research that tomorrow, Professor Manuela Mendonça, Professor at University of Lisbon and the President of the Portuguese Academy of History, will talk at a congress in Genoa in honor of Paolo Emilio Taviani: http://www.sturzo.it/aree/studi-e-ricerche/progetti-in-corso/taviani/convegno-internazionale-e-presentazione-della-nuova-raccolta-colombiana - her talk is titled «Cristóvão Colón: um navigator da casa real portuguêsa?» Cristóvão Colón: a navigator of the Royal House of Portugal? Note not Colombo nor Columbus, but Colon, as Manuel Rosa had always stated the discoverer's correct name to be. The Genoese "house of cards" begins to crumble, and all during an event to honor Taviani, the peddler of an illiterate peasant wool-weaving Colombo. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 17:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
I find it interesting how everything on this article was presented for the first time by Manuel Rosa in his books, yet there is not attribution for any of it, including the images!!! Go figure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.33.47 ( talk) 05:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Davidcottamosborn: The lady's name was Filipa Moniz Perestrelo, which is the correct Portuguese it was not Felipa Perestrelo y Moniz which is a Spanishized version of her name.
" 8 December 2010 Dougweller (talk | contribs) (3,670 bytes) (I wondered about this one, but I doubt that anyone who needs to write their own article at pt.wiki is a reliable source, WP:SPS) (undo)"
I am concerned that you keep removing information that I add as if I am inventing it. I don't understand the comment you made (pasted above) are you saying Manuel Abranches de Soveral, (
http://www.soveral.info/historia.htm ) one of Portugal's trusted genealogists and author of "Sangue Real" is not a reliable source? Or are you insinuating that I am not the reliable source? I apologize if the links do not work, I see no reason why that is happening because it links to Filipa Moniz in
http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=52937 the database of www.geneall.net is one of the worlds most important genealogy sites and very necessary to understand the relationships of the people we mention in this article. I don't see how else to get the information to wiki readers. If I add it, you go delete it as not a reliable source. If I add a reliable source such as Portuguese genealogists from the 17th century you remove it. If I add a link to a current website run by geneaologists, you say I should not link? How then do we add the necessary information to Filipa Moniz's page to show who she truly was in her lifetime?
Colon-el-Nuevo (
talk) 05:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Request for additional comments on inclusion of alternative historical views and proper sourcing thereof. 06:59, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
On page 144 of this book Mr. Rosa shows an image of a document from the Portuguese National Archives known as Torre do Tombo, or TT. The document is cited as "TT, Convento de Santos-o-Novo, Doc. 477. Convento de Santos[-o-Velho], 4-1-1475. Imagen cedida por AN/TT" in whihc is written:
Very Honorable, religious, lady Dona Beatriz de Menenses, superior of the said monastery and Graçia Estévez, Lianor Correa, Catarina Rodriguez, Susana Pereira, Catarina de Valadares, doña Lianor de Meneses, Filipa Moniz, Johana da Silva, Johana de Lordello, Beatriz de Goes and Catarina da Rosa al of them donas (owners or invested) of the said monastery being in committee...
It constitutes reliable proof that Filipa Moniz was thus one of the residents of that Order of Santiago residence.
Colon-el-Nuevo (
talk) 21:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Colón. La Historia Nunca Contada does not meet the requirements for a reliable source. It does not meet the parameters outlined at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Reliable_sources: "Reliable sources on Wikipedia include peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." Furthermore, there is no consensus to allow it as a source in this article. I also feel that the editor Colon-el-Nuevo has a conflict of interest in this topic. — Diiscool ( talk) 17:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I find it amazing that you can both use Rosa as a source for the information in this article and then also describe him as an unreliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.51.158 ( talk) 15:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Even though all the contemporary chronicles and the majority of modern and past historians state he was from Genoa, [1] some non-historians (an information technology analyst [2], an engineer [3], an economist [4], a lawyer [5] [...]) have elaborated alternative hypotheses. They are the new voice of God. What are the historians ? Historians ? Old stuff. Today ? This is the generation of Manuel Rosa. -- 2.33.180.85 ( talk) 09:18, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Morison ? INVENTED ? INVENTED ? Morison. What ? The leading North American authority, Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, the Harvard historian, was the most distinguished writer on Columbus (with Taviani), the author of a multi-volume biography, and was himself a sailor who retraced Columbus’s route across the Atlantic. In his popular book "Admiral of the ocean sea: a life of Christopher Columbus" written in 1942, he writes : The story starts in Genoa with Discoverer's parents.
The History to the Historians.
Manuel Rosa is the latest to join generations of Columbus' "birthers." A Portuguese computer analyst... His sources are unreliable. -- 2.33.180.74 ( talk) 08:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
He won Pulitzer Prizes for Admiral of the Ocean Sea.
Morison was a historian, Rosa an IT person. The History to the Historians. -- 2.33.180.85 ( talk) 15:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
All serious scholars and documents agree, that Columbus was the son of a Genoese weaver; the first person to argue the case for Columbus' birth in Calvi, in the mid-19th century, was a "credulous churchman." See also: Professor Roger Caratini. (He was the greatest French historian of his generation.)
[...] [...] [...] [...] Words are very unnecessary, dear " credulous churchman " -- 2.33.180.100 ( talk) 23:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
= Different categories. = Good Fables. End of conversation. -- 2.33.180.100 ( talk) 00:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Funny, I suppose that "historians" can never be wrong? Oh right, jeesh they are soooooo always correct... Never pressed for time, never skipping documents they cannot read, never plagiarizing, never touting old wives tales as fact,..never...ohh umm...this is soo embarassing. Do I recall being taught from textbooks written by historians that Columbus discovered America? Really? Neat little packages. Oh, and I guess I've -never- heard of "accredited" or "expert" historians having discussions (fights?) about some particular or another..? Or seeing "oops we goofed" being published, in fact more than a few times due to research by *amateur* historians. Glad to see that all the world only exists because of *experts* degree'd in some fancy "ism" or another. Nope, never heard of someone from outside the specialty making critical contributions. Shameless hordes, they should quietly go tend the crops...and let the experts "discover" the truth. Hell, why use Wikipedia when The Truth can only be found in Printed Books. Yeah, use my IP address, I'm more than happy to share my name.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.102.241 ( talk) 09:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
In order to understand Admiral Colón's status in 1479, it is important to understand who he married in 1479. It is also important to understand the customs of his day as well as the bars that existed between nobility and peasants. For that reason I place here the descendants of Colón's father-in-law and who they married. Bartolomeu Perestrelo was a Portuguese-born high noble whose Italian ancestors included the Count Fillipone Langosco, Ruler of Pavia. He was uncle to John II's Mistress, brother-in-law to King Duarte's "nanny" and a Knight of Santiago, member of Prince Henry the Navigator's Household and brother-in-law the the Comendadora-Major of Santiago, Violante Nogueira. His children partnered with the following high Portuguese nobles:
Now lets look at some of the Grandchildren of Bartolomeu Perestrelo, thus the future "Admiral" Colón's nieces and nephews, and who they married:
Filpa Moniz's son married the King of Spain's cousin!!!! The facts are what they are. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 00:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Requesting an uninvolved editor to review the additions to this page and possibly rewrite or redo the article. 19:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
This article is about Filipa Moniz, a lady who's only fame is that she married Christopher Columbus. However, the details of her life, as long as they are documented through available sources, should be included. I am trying to add new information that better highlights Filipa's life, her social position and family connections in Portugal. To do that, I have included material gathered from various sources including Portuguese genealogies, history books and academic publications. Therefore, I feel that there is no need in censoring these details as David1941 continuously tries to do.
Many of these sources are in Portuguese, which I admit is not readily available to non-Portuguese readers, however, one would expect that the Portuguese books contain details that for the most part carry higher accuracy relating to Portuguese subjects and historical figures, than books written by non-Portuguese, or by those who never delved into the specific subject.
In regards to Filipa's social position, one must take into account her father's elite status as well as her whole family's posts, positions, titles and status. As many know, nobility was not just a description of someone. Furthermore, Filipa's connection to the Portuguese Military Order of Santiago is paramount to her identity and life. Members of Santiago were the elite nobles of the kingdom and had to folow the order's rules and regulations. In this subject, one must look to Prof. Joel Silva Ferreira Mata who spent decades researching the Santiago order and has written much especially about the All-Saints " Commandery" where Filipa lived. All these references I have added to the article.
I have also added an image of the place she was buried at:
The Editor named 2.33.180.100, alias Davide1941, alias Davide41 is self-described as a historian and teacher linked to Roma University, and is acting like the protector of a static Filipa page where no knew information should be added.
I feel the elements I have added are important and pertinent to a well-rounded article about Filipa Moniz. I would ask that some other editor take over this task to edit, re-write or revamp the article. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 16:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Requesting an uninvolved editor to review the additions made to this article and possibly rewrite or redo the article. The editor who keeps reverting the article seems to be unwilling to add any new sourced information. Please see the "Requesting Editors Who Wish to Resolve/Revamp Article" entry on the this page this one for more details Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 19:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
It is a sign of the times brought on by Manuel Rosa's research that tomorrow, Professor Manuela Mendonça, Professor at University of Lisbon and the President of the Portuguese Academy of History, will talk at a congress in Genoa in honor of Paolo Emilio Taviani: http://www.sturzo.it/aree/studi-e-ricerche/progetti-in-corso/taviani/convegno-internazionale-e-presentazione-della-nuova-raccolta-colombiana - her talk is titled «Cristóvão Colón: um navigator da casa real portuguêsa?» Cristóvão Colón: a navigator of the Royal House of Portugal? Note not Colombo nor Columbus, but Colon, as Manuel Rosa had always stated the discoverer's correct name to be. The Genoese "house of cards" begins to crumble, and all during an event to honor Taviani, the peddler of an illiterate peasant wool-weaving Colombo. Colon-el-Nuevo ( talk) 17:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
I find it interesting how everything on this article was presented for the first time by Manuel Rosa in his books, yet there is not attribution for any of it, including the images!!! Go figure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.33.47 ( talk) 05:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)