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Do you have sources for these uses? I'm wondering in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation, for example. Female impersonator is a term with nuance that meant different things at different times in history.
Hist9600 (
talk)
00:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation -- hah :-)
the problem of the verb "is". The disambig page is saying that the article of cross-dressing cover the subject of female impersonation (among other things). -
Altenmann>talk00:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It doesn't really help with context, though, because a cross-dresser in the 1950s might have been considered a female impersonator in that era. However, a cross-dresser in the 2020s is generally not considered a female impersonator.
Hist9600 (
talk)
00:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem is that the disambiguation page makes it seem as though female impersonator is synonymous with cross-dresser, which is not the case anymore, and using that term in a modern context may be derogatory. Disambiguation pages often provide some context next to the link when needed, which you did not do when you made these changes.
Hist9600 (
talk)
16:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Disambig pages make seem no such thing. True or false: "Female impersonation may refer to: cross dressing"? Before you answer please pay attention to the word "may". -
Altenmann>talk19:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Disambiguation pages often do provide needed context so readers are not being misled. Female impersonation referred to cross-dressing historically (i.e., in the past), but that is not a normal and accepted term anymore.
Hist9600 (
talk)
21:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose @
Hist9600 and
Altenmann I am concerned about the completely inaccurate presentation of the term "female impersonator" which actually does have a very specific definition used by theatre historians and writers in gender studies. Female impersonation is a specific type of Western performance art that is rooted in heteronormative culture. Many drag queens find the use of the word "female impersonator" offensive because that term is applied to straight men in drag. There is a whole genre of female impersonator roles of the the 19th and 20th century theatre canon made for straight men playing women on the stage in "dame" and wench" roles which was prominent in minstrel shows, vaudeville, and in Broadway musicals and plays. There's an entry on this in Senelick, Laurence (1996). "Female/male impersonation". In Wilmeth, Don B.; Miller, Tice L. (eds.). The Cambridge Guide to American Theatre.
Cambridge University Press. pp. 149–50.
ISBN9780521564441. The term cross-gender acting is a broader modern/global concept, and is not the same thing. For right now, the drag queen article houses the female impersonator content, and the redirect to that article should remain. However, female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen. Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture where as drag is coming from an LGBTQ paradigm with a different construction/deconstruction of gender, sexuality, etc. that isn't present in female impersonation. The female impersonation stage roles are also very different from drag as a performance art. The current cross-gender article also looks a lot like
WP:OR and the coverage on female impersonation is lacking the use of quality scholarly articles on the topic such as the one provided above. Best.
4meter4 (
talk)
01:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You are right that wikipedia articles on the subject suck and I agree that "Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture etc." and drag culture is a different paradigm. But until there is no separate article on female ipersonation, this disambig page serves its purpose. I would have written the new article myself, but I am far from being an expert on the subject. There are a wealth of books on the subject and I am afraid of being lost-
Altenmann>talk02:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
P.S. you wrote yourself "female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen". Female impersonation can be traced back at least as far as ancient Greece.- and yet you redirect this page to
Drag queen.
Julian Eltinge was no way a "drag queen". -
Altenmann>talk01:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Altenmann There is a ton of global female impersonation coverage at the
drag queen article, much of which should probably be moved here. The drag queen article should really emphasize
queer identity, because the term drag queen specifically refers to a type of queer performing artist.
4meter4 (
talk)
04:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Altenmann The term cross-dressing is often used in the context of sexual fetish .For this reason the term cross-dresser is not really appropriate to link to on this page, and is actually frowned upon by drag performers and female impersonators. (see "Drag Queen".
Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volume 2.
SAGE Publications. p. 228. where drag queen article specifically says the term cross-dresser should not be used to refer to people who are in drag because of its link to sexual fetish; that should go for female impersonators too.)
4meter4 (
talk)
05:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Article expansion
When moving chunks of text from wikipedia article to another, you have to follow the rules of
WP:COPYWITHIN, for copyright reasons. I usually put the template {{copied}} into four places: into two edit summaries and into two talk pages. -
Altenmann>talk06:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I did follow the guideline. I stated I was moving the content from the
drag queen article in the edit summary which is enough to meet the COPYWITHIN guideline. But thanks for letting me know about the template
4meter4 (
talk)
07:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fashion, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Fashion on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FashionWikipedia:WikiProject FashionTemplate:WikiProject Fashionfashion articles
This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This
WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the
project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
project page or contribute to the
discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles
Do you have sources for these uses? I'm wondering in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation, for example. Female impersonator is a term with nuance that meant different things at different times in history.
Hist9600 (
talk)
00:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
in what senses you are saying that cross-dressing is female impersonation -- hah :-)
the problem of the verb "is". The disambig page is saying that the article of cross-dressing cover the subject of female impersonation (among other things). -
Altenmann>talk00:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It doesn't really help with context, though, because a cross-dresser in the 1950s might have been considered a female impersonator in that era. However, a cross-dresser in the 2020s is generally not considered a female impersonator.
Hist9600 (
talk)
00:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem is that the disambiguation page makes it seem as though female impersonator is synonymous with cross-dresser, which is not the case anymore, and using that term in a modern context may be derogatory. Disambiguation pages often provide some context next to the link when needed, which you did not do when you made these changes.
Hist9600 (
talk)
16:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Disambig pages make seem no such thing. True or false: "Female impersonation may refer to: cross dressing"? Before you answer please pay attention to the word "may". -
Altenmann>talk19:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Disambiguation pages often do provide needed context so readers are not being misled. Female impersonation referred to cross-dressing historically (i.e., in the past), but that is not a normal and accepted term anymore.
Hist9600 (
talk)
21:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose @
Hist9600 and
Altenmann I am concerned about the completely inaccurate presentation of the term "female impersonator" which actually does have a very specific definition used by theatre historians and writers in gender studies. Female impersonation is a specific type of Western performance art that is rooted in heteronormative culture. Many drag queens find the use of the word "female impersonator" offensive because that term is applied to straight men in drag. There is a whole genre of female impersonator roles of the the 19th and 20th century theatre canon made for straight men playing women on the stage in "dame" and wench" roles which was prominent in minstrel shows, vaudeville, and in Broadway musicals and plays. There's an entry on this in Senelick, Laurence (1996). "Female/male impersonation". In Wilmeth, Don B.; Miller, Tice L. (eds.). The Cambridge Guide to American Theatre.
Cambridge University Press. pp. 149–50.
ISBN9780521564441. The term cross-gender acting is a broader modern/global concept, and is not the same thing. For right now, the drag queen article houses the female impersonator content, and the redirect to that article should remain. However, female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen. Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture where as drag is coming from an LGBTQ paradigm with a different construction/deconstruction of gender, sexuality, etc. that isn't present in female impersonation. The female impersonation stage roles are also very different from drag as a performance art. The current cross-gender article also looks a lot like
WP:OR and the coverage on female impersonation is lacking the use of quality scholarly articles on the topic such as the one provided above. Best.
4meter4 (
talk)
01:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You are right that wikipedia articles on the subject suck and I agree that "Female impersonators are associated with heteronormative culture etc." and drag culture is a different paradigm. But until there is no separate article on female ipersonation, this disambig page serves its purpose. I would have written the new article myself, but I am far from being an expert on the subject. There are a wealth of books on the subject and I am afraid of being lost-
Altenmann>talk02:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
P.S. you wrote yourself "female impersonation deserves its own separate article because female impersonators are not the same as being a drag queen". Female impersonation can be traced back at least as far as ancient Greece.- and yet you redirect this page to
Drag queen.
Julian Eltinge was no way a "drag queen". -
Altenmann>talk01:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Altenmann There is a ton of global female impersonation coverage at the
drag queen article, much of which should probably be moved here. The drag queen article should really emphasize
queer identity, because the term drag queen specifically refers to a type of queer performing artist.
4meter4 (
talk)
04:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Altenmann The term cross-dressing is often used in the context of sexual fetish .For this reason the term cross-dresser is not really appropriate to link to on this page, and is actually frowned upon by drag performers and female impersonators. (see "Drag Queen".
Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volume 2.
SAGE Publications. p. 228. where drag queen article specifically says the term cross-dresser should not be used to refer to people who are in drag because of its link to sexual fetish; that should go for female impersonators too.)
4meter4 (
talk)
05:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Article expansion
When moving chunks of text from wikipedia article to another, you have to follow the rules of
WP:COPYWITHIN, for copyright reasons. I usually put the template {{copied}} into four places: into two edit summaries and into two talk pages. -
Altenmann>talk06:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I did follow the guideline. I stated I was moving the content from the
drag queen article in the edit summary which is enough to meet the COPYWITHIN guideline. But thanks for letting me know about the template
4meter4 (
talk)
07:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply