This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fatal dog attacks in the United States article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14Auto-archiving period: 28 days |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
|
Examples of breed name format, as recommended:
Examples if two dogs of the same or mixed breed are involved in an attack, as recommended:
Note: In the case that a dog's description includes multiple (three more) breeds, then by definition it is a mixed breed dog and should be listed as a "mixed breed dog" in the "Category" field; however, the various breeds (if known) can be described in the "Circumstances" field.
After investigation, sometimes there is a final issued statement about the breed. In such an instance, the breed column should be corrected. The various earlier mentioned breeds MAY be noted in the circumstances, but should NOT be left remaining in the breed column.On 21 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of fatal dog attacks in the United States to Fatal dog attacks in the United States. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I think it would be a good idea to set some criteria to be included in the list. My suggestion is to limit the list to fatalities 1) coveaged in a major newspaper, national newspaper, or national magazine 2) media coverage outside the immediate area of the incident 3) impacted laws or legislation 4) involved famous or notable people Rublamb ( talk) 06:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. In this discussion a small majority of editors oppose the move, but consensus is not ascertained by counting votes but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.
In support of the move editors argued that the article would be more aligned with the sources, and better able to contain relevant information on the topic, if the scope was broadened from a list.
In opposition to the move editors presented three primary arguments; that this is a backdoor to deletion, in contradiction of the recent AfD result; that the current title is consistent with other articles; and that the topic of fatal dog attacks in the United States is already covered by Fatal dog attacks#United States.
This first argument was successfully rebutted by editors who pointed out that the AfD's have been consistently closed as "no consensus", meaning that it's result can not be interpreted as endorsing the status quo. As such, I fully discounted those arguments.
The second argument was stronger, but editors supporting the move addressed this by pointing out that the concern is the topic; consistency is applicable for articles with similar subjects, but the proposal is to change the subject from a list article to a prose article. As such, while I didn't fully discount this argument, I did not give it much weight.
The third argument was also stronger, but was rebutted by supporters who pointed out that child articles are common practice for long articles per WP:SPLIT, that these lists originated as child articles of Fatal dog attacks, and implicitly that the article on the global subject focuses too much on the United States, an issue that could be addressed by moving some of that content to a child article.
As such, I see a rough consensus to move this article based on strength of argument. However, this should not be seen as a consensus to remove the list content outright; instead, the information in the list should be maintained, either in prose form, as-is, or as a mix of the two. Disputes on this should be resolved through talk page discussion or through dispute resolution processes. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 03:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
List of fatal dog attacks in the United States → Fatal dog attacks in the United States – Following the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fatal dog attacks in the United States (3rd nomination), concerns about the content of the page might be alleviated by a suggestion made in the discussion to move this to the non-list title proposed here, which already redirects to this title, allowing the focus of the article to be on the phenomenon, and the list to be incidental to this. BD2412 T 02:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
it's because a decision has been reached on whether a standalone list on this list topic will exist on an NLIST basis. Except no such decision was made. The AfD was not closed as keep, but as no consensus. When a subject cannot establish it's notability repeatedly, that's when there are structural problems to address that rarely result in just leaving the article as-is. Since you cite WP:ARTN, that lack clear notability is going to remain because it's a fundamental issue, not something based on what exists in the article at a given time. KoA ( talk) 21:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
These aren't attempts to delete the list page. They are attempts to improve it.That's why I talked about issues with pigeonholing above and it being too restrictive on the topic. I've been talking about expanding the page to a regular article strengthening the case for notability. KoA ( talk) 05:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Likewise for implying that the fact that policies and guidelines don't discuss something means that we discourage the thing that wasn't discussed., that's a very good description of WP:NOTBURO policy. KoA ( talk) 23:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Come on, why delete a real fatality because you don't like the website someone listed, especially when that web page contains actual links to news articles or a google search easily finds other websites covering those fatalities. Carter Hartle was removed but is covered here. [7] [8] [9] [10] Wikianon3770617 ( talk) 21:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fatal dog attacks in the United States article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14Auto-archiving period: 28 days |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Examples of breed name format, as recommended:
Examples if two dogs of the same or mixed breed are involved in an attack, as recommended:
Note: In the case that a dog's description includes multiple (three more) breeds, then by definition it is a mixed breed dog and should be listed as a "mixed breed dog" in the "Category" field; however, the various breeds (if known) can be described in the "Circumstances" field.
After investigation, sometimes there is a final issued statement about the breed. In such an instance, the breed column should be corrected. The various earlier mentioned breeds MAY be noted in the circumstances, but should NOT be left remaining in the breed column.On 21 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of fatal dog attacks in the United States to Fatal dog attacks in the United States. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I think it would be a good idea to set some criteria to be included in the list. My suggestion is to limit the list to fatalities 1) coveaged in a major newspaper, national newspaper, or national magazine 2) media coverage outside the immediate area of the incident 3) impacted laws or legislation 4) involved famous or notable people Rublamb ( talk) 06:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. In this discussion a small majority of editors oppose the move, but consensus is not ascertained by counting votes but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.
In support of the move editors argued that the article would be more aligned with the sources, and better able to contain relevant information on the topic, if the scope was broadened from a list.
In opposition to the move editors presented three primary arguments; that this is a backdoor to deletion, in contradiction of the recent AfD result; that the current title is consistent with other articles; and that the topic of fatal dog attacks in the United States is already covered by Fatal dog attacks#United States.
This first argument was successfully rebutted by editors who pointed out that the AfD's have been consistently closed as "no consensus", meaning that it's result can not be interpreted as endorsing the status quo. As such, I fully discounted those arguments.
The second argument was stronger, but editors supporting the move addressed this by pointing out that the concern is the topic; consistency is applicable for articles with similar subjects, but the proposal is to change the subject from a list article to a prose article. As such, while I didn't fully discount this argument, I did not give it much weight.
The third argument was also stronger, but was rebutted by supporters who pointed out that child articles are common practice for long articles per WP:SPLIT, that these lists originated as child articles of Fatal dog attacks, and implicitly that the article on the global subject focuses too much on the United States, an issue that could be addressed by moving some of that content to a child article.
As such, I see a rough consensus to move this article based on strength of argument. However, this should not be seen as a consensus to remove the list content outright; instead, the information in the list should be maintained, either in prose form, as-is, or as a mix of the two. Disputes on this should be resolved through talk page discussion or through dispute resolution processes. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 03:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
List of fatal dog attacks in the United States → Fatal dog attacks in the United States – Following the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fatal dog attacks in the United States (3rd nomination), concerns about the content of the page might be alleviated by a suggestion made in the discussion to move this to the non-list title proposed here, which already redirects to this title, allowing the focus of the article to be on the phenomenon, and the list to be incidental to this. BD2412 T 02:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
it's because a decision has been reached on whether a standalone list on this list topic will exist on an NLIST basis. Except no such decision was made. The AfD was not closed as keep, but as no consensus. When a subject cannot establish it's notability repeatedly, that's when there are structural problems to address that rarely result in just leaving the article as-is. Since you cite WP:ARTN, that lack clear notability is going to remain because it's a fundamental issue, not something based on what exists in the article at a given time. KoA ( talk) 21:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
These aren't attempts to delete the list page. They are attempts to improve it.That's why I talked about issues with pigeonholing above and it being too restrictive on the topic. I've been talking about expanding the page to a regular article strengthening the case for notability. KoA ( talk) 05:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Likewise for implying that the fact that policies and guidelines don't discuss something means that we discourage the thing that wasn't discussed., that's a very good description of WP:NOTBURO policy. KoA ( talk) 23:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Come on, why delete a real fatality because you don't like the website someone listed, especially when that web page contains actual links to news articles or a google search easily finds other websites covering those fatalities. Carter Hartle was removed but is covered here. [7] [8] [9] [10] Wikianon3770617 ( talk) 21:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)