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The proposed edit involves the last sentence of the introductory paragraph for "Fascism". The sentence reads "Fascism opposes liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism and is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left-right spectrum".
This statement is most likely not true, and at the very least very dubious, as fascist societies tend to be on the far left of a properly defined political spectrum. Fascist governments tend to restrict free markets, and individual liberties.
The most significant examples of leftist fascism in modern history would be, Communist USSR, Communist China, and also the Nazi Party of Germany. The Nazi party, aka the National Socialist German Workers Party, were proponents of socialism, and opponents of capitalism. A modern-day example of leftist fascism would be Communist North Korea.
So I propose the last sentence of the first paragraph be edited to read "Fascism generally opposes classical liberalism, anarchism, and capitalism."
Sources:
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/2012/06/political-left-and-right-properly-defined/
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
Mgaudzels ( talk) 15:58, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
At the very least the statement that fascism "is usually placed on the far-right" should be removed. This suggestion is purely politically motivated and is held by the minority. Highly subjective statements in this context have no place on Wikipedia. According to Wikipeida, "there is no firm consensus about the meaning of the terms left-wing and right-wing on the global level". However in America, in general, "right-wing implies a commitment to conservative Christian values, support for a free-market system and civil libertarianism(Which emphasizes the supremacy of individual rights and personal freedoms over and against any kind of authority)". Nothing about these beliefs are consistent with fascism. You cannot be both for small government, individual liberties, and also be fascist. This does not need a reference, it is simple logic. Most would place the best know fascistic dictators: Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Hitler, FDR... on the left side(socialist, communist, democrat...) of the American left-right spectrum. Leaving this statement on the page would be irresponsible as it is simply untrue. -- Calebjely ( talk) 16:58, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Orange Mike has inserted is own political beliefs here, and is not keeping a neutral point of view. There is no consensus, as shown by a long history of this question coming up. Sauve.sean ( talk) 00:10, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Please provide evidence of "consensus of long standing, both on and off Wikipedia". I quoted Wikipedia "there is no firm consensus about the meaning of the terms left-wing and right-wing on the global level". Your user page stating you are a Bernie Supporter and "disgusted by the corruption and stupidity of Southern politic" shows your bias as Administrator in editing a page on this topic in good faith. -- Calebjely ( talk) 18:04, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
"Mike" you have just a BA...I have two MSs... Masters in International Relations and Masters in Strategic Intelligence in which I graduated with a 3.9 GPA in both and have been actually published, and you are completely wrong...there is not firm definition of fascism among scholars, which you are not one...you are putting your own ideology onto this page where you should be allowing those with more education and actual research in the area of Political Science/ International Relation's Theory to change your undergraduate type work...who cares about your BA...you are just trying to put a Leftist spin on the definition...how do you explain Paron in Argentina if it is only a Right-Wing ideology...hint he switched back and forth to maintain power...in the end Realism is the only proven theory...Mike, you did make me laugh with your touting of your BA...too funny...change the page to the correct phrasing "There is no consensus on whether Fascism falls on the Left or Right of the Political Spectrum because in many cases the paradigm has shifted and in the end totalitarianism became the norm. Scholars will continue to debate this definition until a clear case study arises to prove the thesis or the antithesis." If you can produce an actual scholarly case study then do it...your opinion is not fact...undergraduates are not allowed to have opinions...only spit back facts...please adjust or I will report you for biased editing and my credentials are much better than yours... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.95.1.11 ( talk) 15:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
//Hey guys not sure where to post this. I throughly disagree that fascism has at it's core tenets imperialism, as eurasianism is in it's own weird way anti-imperialist.// — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.204.1.1 ( talk) 17:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
It has been disputed many times, with several sources listed, that the last sentence of the opening paragraph is too strongly worded, and has not been backed up by evidence. Keeping that sentence in it's current form is motivated by political agenda. -- Sauve.sean ( talk) 17:12, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Please cite sources Sauve.sean ( talk) 00:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
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01:02, 2 January 2017 (UTC)The following sentence should be removed: "The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th century fascist movements."
This is the page for fascism, not neo-fascism. It is a poor description of neo-facism in its own right, but even if it weren't, it is not relevant to this page and is another example of an edit trying to spin fascism as "far-right". The citation for this sentence has nothing to do with the sentence itself as the citation mentions nothing of far right ideologies. It only reference the Italian Social Republic the Italian Social Movement. [1] [2] "Mussolini had originally intended to call his new republic the Italian ‘Socialist’ Republic", because he was a socialist, as many understand as the opposite of "far-right".
Calebjely ( talk) 23:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I find it baffling that this article goes on for miles about what fascism is, with all these wishy-washy definitions of the term. It seems obvious to me that the only truly defining feature of fascism is the total power the state holds over the individual; the same way it does in any authoritarian regime. The rights of the individual mean nothing, the state arbitrarily decides what is "best" for the people, and anyone who goes against that is crushed, by whatever means. -- Antred ( talk) 20:36, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
-- JamesPoulson ( talk) 10:41, 29 January 2017 (UTC)(historical) A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the marketplace, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights.
This page has long had serious problems. As a whole, it's garbled and badly written, with dubious stress being put on cherry-picked aspects of the topic. The lead fails to clearly and concisely explain what fascism is – or at least what connects those movements and ideas usually labelled as fascist – instead, especially in the mid-section, just listing things fascists supposedly believed and why they believed them, as well as ruminations on WW1.
Past efforts to rewrite the lead have got nowhere, as no one agrees on what should be there, but as a simple initial step towards solving the wider issues, can I suggest the wholesale deletion of the last two sections, on "
Criticisms of fascism" and "
Distinctions between fascism and other ideologies"? Criticism sections are deprecated on WP. For example, we know fascism is authoritarian – what does it add to say that it has been "criticised" [sic] for being so? And while comparisons can be useful, especially where they mark out distinctions, it's not clear what that second section has added to the page other than an opportunity for people to pass by and add selective quotations to imply that fascism is very much like socialism etc. It seems to be about point-scoring rather than neutral explanation.
N-HH
talk/
edits
15:02, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
When you look at the political origins of Fascism in Italy, it grew from the socialist movement. Indeed Mussolini described himself as a socialist, and Fascism as a form of socialism long after being kicked out of the Socialist party in 1914.
The idea that Fascism is right wing today rather than left, appears to have arisen from varying definitions of the concepts of the political left and right, and therefore is a misleading concept that should be avoided.
From Wikiquote ( https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mussolini):
79.218.212.90 ( talk) 20:31, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Title, obviously this is a political move. Whoever included the edit should be locked from editing the page further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.72.42 ( talk) 15:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It may be for historians to examine the record post hoc to determine whether the Trump administration meets criteria offered in the article. Nonetheless, there are already abundant observable facts that are consistent with the definitions offered here, in his public run to the presidency and actions of his Administration. Moreover, to suggest that hindsight is the only appropriate mechanism, is intellectually problematic: there would be no way to confront fascism in the present if it can only be defined in the future. From a more practical perspective, people hear the term fascist applied, and they go to the Internet to learn more about it. Not mentioning it in the article, ignores the elephant in the room. Even a brief paragraph stating that some have applied the term loosely to Trump's rise to power - perhaps mentioning the facts that are consistent with the assertion and other facts that aren't - and that historians will review the totality of his ascent, and achievements as president, to determine whether the term aptly applies. It is inarguable that the record, so far, includes many of the behaviors/attributes of fascism noted in the article. And that like many things, fascism manifests on a spectrum of behavior. Final attribution will be subjective, "in the eyes of the historian." Obviously, Donald Trump is no Hitler or Mussolini, but what is the threshold for attributing the designation? Or is it some intellectual construct without practical/actionable meaning outside of philosophical discourse. How much behavior needs to be consistent with fascism before historians appropriately apply the term; this seems to be avoided in the article. Almost certainly techniques described as "fascist" can be harnessed for advantage without satisfying some abstract definition. Finally, isn't it a form of political correctness to avoid entirely the question that brought readers to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.215.175.61 ( talk) 17:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
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Adowell0007 ( talk) 03:10, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
Otherwise known as leftism.
A recent edit used the Oxford Companion to Comparative Politics as a source (not exactly accurately, it seems), which I haven't seen before. Its section on fascism looks like a useful overview of the topic that would help with refactoring the lead. As noted previously, the current version is full of rambling theorising about World War 1 and claims about what fascists supposedly "believed". It could be much more succinct on the significance of the war and also be clearer about what characterised fascism, particularly in practice as opposed to purported ideology or beliefs. N-HH talk/ edits 09:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to edit the description that fascism is a right wing political ideology because that is false. The left-right political spectrum is based off of the more government control the further to the left the ideology land on the left-right spectrum. As the right side of the left-right spectrum is less government control you would have classical liberalism, conservatism, libertarians, and the furthest to the right on the right side of the left-right spectrum would be anarchy because that advocates for no government control. Fascism does not advocate any of the things on the right side of the spectrum and to be labeled far-right is misleading and overall incorrect. Because the farthest right you can get is being an anarchist. Except maybe Anarcho-Communists but as I described Anarchists are basically the opposites of communists making anarcho-communists a political contradiction. To specify the left side of the spectrum of the left-right political spectrum just to be through. You would have modern day liberals, fascists, and communists. The far-right label attached to fascism actually came from the Spanish Civil War, where Communists used it as propaganda against the Fascists claiming that they were far-right lunatics. Because well to communists, fascists are far-right lunatics, but aside from an extremely far-left point of view, fascism is a fairly far left type of system. 00:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC) Littlegreen5300 ( talk) 00:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://www.britannica.com/event/Spanish-Civil-War
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/59392 Here is a source that is very in depth on political thought in general and only one labels fascism as far-right while another example separates fascism and Franco (called Franquism) which is labeled as far right. Even though it doesn't fully back me up, I do recommend reading it regardless of that.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Littlegreen5300 (
talk •
contribs)
Read up yourself, you're right to think that no right wing thought would exist in a country is absurd but the main players in the Spanish Civil War were the Nationalists supported by Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and the mainly Stalin supported the Spanish Republicans. I mean just read up here is a third party source detailing events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlegreen5300 ( talk • contribs)
The Doctrine of Fascism Authorized translation of Mussolini's "The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism" (1933) (PDF). media.wix.com. Readings on Fascism and National Socialism by Various – Project Gutenberg Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt – Umberto Eco's list of 14 characteristics of Fascism, originally published 1995.
Using the external links that Wikipedia gives itself on Fascism doesn't align with the right wing on the left-wing spectrum, Mussolini himself had a paragraph titled, REJECTION OF INDIVIDUALISM AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE STATE. The first sentence stating, Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism. So it is against individualism and against materialism which in this case I'm pretty sure he's talking about Economic materialism which is certainly not a socialist ideal.Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
/info/en/?search=Economic_materialism (there I'll reference Wikipedia itself.) Fascism is not socialism but Fascism is definitely not right wing, at least economically, I could go further but it seems others have done a way better job at trying to convince Wikipedia that fascism is not a far right political ideology so regardless of what I say about it. Also to respond to Ian Thomson's comment about Wikipedia drawing conclusions it seems the evidence to support fascism being a far-right political ideology is one that is up for debate and putting it up on Wikipedia as a far-right political ideology is drawing conclusions which you said Wikipedia doesn't do, so by that alone shouldn't that be reason enough to at least remove any reference to it being far-right?
Littlegreen5300 (
talk) 07:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)little green
Littlegreen5300 (
talk)
07:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Fascism is the State controlling businesses. The Nazis nationalized many industries. The State taking over sectors of the economy such as Healthcare is Socialism. Government incentives for certain crops or forms of energy, may be necessary, but are steps towards Socialism. If the takeover is done by a bunch of people, it is Communism. If done by one person with a pen and a phone, it is Fascism. I realize that my statement is too political for a Wikipedia definition, but no mention of industry is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.26.242.95 ( talk) 15:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Going back to the Webster dictionary, there is no indication that fascism is "right-winged". It is merely a belief in strong control by the government, which is why Hilter (a democratic socialist) was a fascist. The right is believes in the Constitution which is founded on individual liberty; therefore is completely opposite to fascism. Progressives would be best aligned with fascism; however, all mention of right and left should be taken out for purpose of purity and separation of political view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djca73 ( talk • contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Fascism can fall on both sides of the aisle. Revert back to the version from 03:05, 17 November 2015. The current version is biased and inaccurate. Stating that "yet also takes from the far left, with points like: state control of the means of production, and suppression of dissenting view points towards the state and it's beneficiaries" should not be controversial. Didn't mean to delete the previous version. Just meant to state what I think. Fascism can fall on both sides of the political aisle.— Preceding unsigned comment added by You-are-a-liar ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Fascism can also fall under the extreme left as well. There are many critics who after that leftists can be fascists. I-want-truth ( talk) 01:21, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
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Where is your basis for facists being "Right wing" or "extreme right wing"? This is an inaccurate term since those who lean right want smaller government and are against autocracy and a strong central government. Claiming "right wingers" are facists is a smear tactic by Leftists to distract independent thinkers. I reject group think and I am no pleader for any politician. But when your wikipedia definition lies outright about who and what a facist is I must speak up. Facists were Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin for example. They were all ultra leftists and did not believe in freedom for the massses. Get it right and remove your slant or we will oust you your boldfaced ideological lies. 32.97.110.61 ( talk) 21:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The addition of the statement about fascism being on the right end of the political left-right spectrum is misleading and incorrect, as well as self serving to liberals who currently incorrectly consider anyone on the conservative side of politics to be fascist. Particularly given the recent behavior of left leaning liberals stifling free speech on college campuses, this redefining of the word is peculiar and not fooling anyone with a real dictionary. In 2017, the behavior of the left fits the definition of fascism very well. It's better to just leave the association with the left or the right out of the definition. Or you are going to end up with an entire generation of misinformed millennials throwing that word around at anything that they disagree with or that is conservative. JRReynolds ( talk) 03:59, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I've thought long and hard about my accusations regarding misinformed millennial's, and I have determined that I am correct. Thank you for the suggestion. Also, I think you probably could have just left your response as "I don't know much about the topic," and left it at that. And you must be joking about mainstream academic resources being reliable and unbiased. JRReynolds ( talk) 05:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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I strongly object to the characterization of fascism as a right-wing philosphy, as in this sentence:
"Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum."
This is pure editorializing and propaganda, and demonization of conservatives. Perhaps is IS place on the far-right - by biased liberabls. Merriam Webster defines fascism as follows:
1 a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge
"dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" - I would posit that this matches the far LEFT. For example, Obama was a dictatorial leader who imposed severe regulation on business. Social justice warriors, also associated with the left, work to impose social regimentation and control through bullying and attempt at shaming. Forcible suppression of opposition is clearly seen today by groups such as the ironically named Anti-fa who riot and violently attack businesses and conservatives, college campuses and students who refuse to allow free speech from conservatives, and liberals in general who are trying to destroy democracy by removing the duly elected current president with riots, violence, and attacks on businesses and conservatives.
I have read that Wikipedia has a left-wing bias, which I can certainly see in this article and others. Also see http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/102601/how-left-conquered-wikipedia-part-1-david-swindle. So this does not surprise me. However, as someone who has donated several times upon your request (but will not donate again), I ask that you remove the left-wing propaganda aspects of your articles on facism, as you are doing nothing other than supporting and justifying the current violence against right-wing supporters. Otherwise I will wait until my permissions come through and attempt an edit on my own, to remove your biased assignment of facism to the right. Marbief13 ( talk) 17:55, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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Remove the political bias which states "fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum". This is not only not true but it is misleading and now we have actual fascist groups who are among the far left who are using this definition to support their cause. This is dangerous, and if you don't want Wikipedia to be considered "fake news" then these types of biases need to be corrected. There are numerous other requests for this and yet this bias remains. MaxAiring ( talk) 18:03, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
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jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (
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19:10, 28 July 2017 (UTC)"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce,[3] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]"
however,
Fascism is a big government, totalitarian, economic, and political ideology that arose in early twentieth century Europe and came to dominate the social and political systems of Italy under Benito Mussolini and Germany under Adolf Hitler. Fascism was primarily statist in nature, relying on big government solutions and "crony capitalism", and openly hostile towards conventional religion. Fascism was influential in Portugal as well, and had followers in most European countries and in Argentina. The last regime that had some fascist elements, that of Francisco Franco in Spain, came to an end in 1975. Fascism was falsely considered "Far-Right" in politics, mostly due to Joseph Stalin denouncing Hitler and the National Socialists as "right-wing" after World War II, but it in reality was considered closer to the far-Left.[1][2]
1. http://www.regnery.com/books/the-big-lie/ 2. Not Right, Not Left, But a Vital Center, Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., New York Times Magazine, April 4, 1948. http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schlesinger-notrightleft.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.14.204.34 ( talk) 01:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
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Fascism has always been considered a "left wing" philosophy because it involves oppressive government controls on industry and commerce, (similar to socialism). The oppression of opposing views and the restriction of free speech also put Fascism heavily in the "left wing" category. Fascism is the antithesis of conservatism. 2602:301:7735:14E0:2123:8E13:BF3C:E7C ( talk) 15:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
the opening paragraph doesn't include the national socialistic aspects of fascism (??) ... it's misleading saying that it has only far right characteristics, when the socialistic aspects are widely regarded as left. the sentence below would be more accurately written as the following:
Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is either placed on the far-left due to national socialism that characterized the fascist regimes in central and southeastern Europe (Moss, Myra E. (1995), "Origin & Evolution of European Fascism", Claremont McKenna College: 4) or the far-right in southwestern Europe.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikuser2 ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
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The proposed edit involves the last sentence of the introductory paragraph for "Fascism". The sentence reads "Fascism opposes liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism and is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left-right spectrum".
This statement is most likely not true, and at the very least very dubious, as fascist societies tend to be on the far left of a properly defined political spectrum. Fascist governments tend to restrict free markets, and individual liberties.
The most significant examples of leftist fascism in modern history would be, Communist USSR, Communist China, and also the Nazi Party of Germany. The Nazi party, aka the National Socialist German Workers Party, were proponents of socialism, and opponents of capitalism. A modern-day example of leftist fascism would be Communist North Korea.
So I propose the last sentence of the first paragraph be edited to read "Fascism generally opposes classical liberalism, anarchism, and capitalism."
Sources:
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/2012/06/political-left-and-right-properly-defined/
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
Mgaudzels ( talk) 15:58, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
At the very least the statement that fascism "is usually placed on the far-right" should be removed. This suggestion is purely politically motivated and is held by the minority. Highly subjective statements in this context have no place on Wikipedia. According to Wikipeida, "there is no firm consensus about the meaning of the terms left-wing and right-wing on the global level". However in America, in general, "right-wing implies a commitment to conservative Christian values, support for a free-market system and civil libertarianism(Which emphasizes the supremacy of individual rights and personal freedoms over and against any kind of authority)". Nothing about these beliefs are consistent with fascism. You cannot be both for small government, individual liberties, and also be fascist. This does not need a reference, it is simple logic. Most would place the best know fascistic dictators: Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Hitler, FDR... on the left side(socialist, communist, democrat...) of the American left-right spectrum. Leaving this statement on the page would be irresponsible as it is simply untrue. -- Calebjely ( talk) 16:58, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Orange Mike has inserted is own political beliefs here, and is not keeping a neutral point of view. There is no consensus, as shown by a long history of this question coming up. Sauve.sean ( talk) 00:10, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Please provide evidence of "consensus of long standing, both on and off Wikipedia". I quoted Wikipedia "there is no firm consensus about the meaning of the terms left-wing and right-wing on the global level". Your user page stating you are a Bernie Supporter and "disgusted by the corruption and stupidity of Southern politic" shows your bias as Administrator in editing a page on this topic in good faith. -- Calebjely ( talk) 18:04, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
"Mike" you have just a BA...I have two MSs... Masters in International Relations and Masters in Strategic Intelligence in which I graduated with a 3.9 GPA in both and have been actually published, and you are completely wrong...there is not firm definition of fascism among scholars, which you are not one...you are putting your own ideology onto this page where you should be allowing those with more education and actual research in the area of Political Science/ International Relation's Theory to change your undergraduate type work...who cares about your BA...you are just trying to put a Leftist spin on the definition...how do you explain Paron in Argentina if it is only a Right-Wing ideology...hint he switched back and forth to maintain power...in the end Realism is the only proven theory...Mike, you did make me laugh with your touting of your BA...too funny...change the page to the correct phrasing "There is no consensus on whether Fascism falls on the Left or Right of the Political Spectrum because in many cases the paradigm has shifted and in the end totalitarianism became the norm. Scholars will continue to debate this definition until a clear case study arises to prove the thesis or the antithesis." If you can produce an actual scholarly case study then do it...your opinion is not fact...undergraduates are not allowed to have opinions...only spit back facts...please adjust or I will report you for biased editing and my credentials are much better than yours... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.95.1.11 ( talk) 15:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
//Hey guys not sure where to post this. I throughly disagree that fascism has at it's core tenets imperialism, as eurasianism is in it's own weird way anti-imperialist.// — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.204.1.1 ( talk) 17:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
It has been disputed many times, with several sources listed, that the last sentence of the opening paragraph is too strongly worded, and has not been backed up by evidence. Keeping that sentence in it's current form is motivated by political agenda. -- Sauve.sean ( talk) 17:12, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Please cite sources Sauve.sean ( talk) 00:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
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01:02, 2 January 2017 (UTC)The following sentence should be removed: "The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th century fascist movements."
This is the page for fascism, not neo-fascism. It is a poor description of neo-facism in its own right, but even if it weren't, it is not relevant to this page and is another example of an edit trying to spin fascism as "far-right". The citation for this sentence has nothing to do with the sentence itself as the citation mentions nothing of far right ideologies. It only reference the Italian Social Republic the Italian Social Movement. [1] [2] "Mussolini had originally intended to call his new republic the Italian ‘Socialist’ Republic", because he was a socialist, as many understand as the opposite of "far-right".
Calebjely ( talk) 23:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I find it baffling that this article goes on for miles about what fascism is, with all these wishy-washy definitions of the term. It seems obvious to me that the only truly defining feature of fascism is the total power the state holds over the individual; the same way it does in any authoritarian regime. The rights of the individual mean nothing, the state arbitrarily decides what is "best" for the people, and anyone who goes against that is crushed, by whatever means. -- Antred ( talk) 20:36, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
-- JamesPoulson ( talk) 10:41, 29 January 2017 (UTC)(historical) A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the marketplace, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights.
This page has long had serious problems. As a whole, it's garbled and badly written, with dubious stress being put on cherry-picked aspects of the topic. The lead fails to clearly and concisely explain what fascism is – or at least what connects those movements and ideas usually labelled as fascist – instead, especially in the mid-section, just listing things fascists supposedly believed and why they believed them, as well as ruminations on WW1.
Past efforts to rewrite the lead have got nowhere, as no one agrees on what should be there, but as a simple initial step towards solving the wider issues, can I suggest the wholesale deletion of the last two sections, on "
Criticisms of fascism" and "
Distinctions between fascism and other ideologies"? Criticism sections are deprecated on WP. For example, we know fascism is authoritarian – what does it add to say that it has been "criticised" [sic] for being so? And while comparisons can be useful, especially where they mark out distinctions, it's not clear what that second section has added to the page other than an opportunity for people to pass by and add selective quotations to imply that fascism is very much like socialism etc. It seems to be about point-scoring rather than neutral explanation.
N-HH
talk/
edits
15:02, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
When you look at the political origins of Fascism in Italy, it grew from the socialist movement. Indeed Mussolini described himself as a socialist, and Fascism as a form of socialism long after being kicked out of the Socialist party in 1914.
The idea that Fascism is right wing today rather than left, appears to have arisen from varying definitions of the concepts of the political left and right, and therefore is a misleading concept that should be avoided.
From Wikiquote ( https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mussolini):
79.218.212.90 ( talk) 20:31, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Title, obviously this is a political move. Whoever included the edit should be locked from editing the page further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.72.42 ( talk) 15:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It may be for historians to examine the record post hoc to determine whether the Trump administration meets criteria offered in the article. Nonetheless, there are already abundant observable facts that are consistent with the definitions offered here, in his public run to the presidency and actions of his Administration. Moreover, to suggest that hindsight is the only appropriate mechanism, is intellectually problematic: there would be no way to confront fascism in the present if it can only be defined in the future. From a more practical perspective, people hear the term fascist applied, and they go to the Internet to learn more about it. Not mentioning it in the article, ignores the elephant in the room. Even a brief paragraph stating that some have applied the term loosely to Trump's rise to power - perhaps mentioning the facts that are consistent with the assertion and other facts that aren't - and that historians will review the totality of his ascent, and achievements as president, to determine whether the term aptly applies. It is inarguable that the record, so far, includes many of the behaviors/attributes of fascism noted in the article. And that like many things, fascism manifests on a spectrum of behavior. Final attribution will be subjective, "in the eyes of the historian." Obviously, Donald Trump is no Hitler or Mussolini, but what is the threshold for attributing the designation? Or is it some intellectual construct without practical/actionable meaning outside of philosophical discourse. How much behavior needs to be consistent with fascism before historians appropriately apply the term; this seems to be avoided in the article. Almost certainly techniques described as "fascist" can be harnessed for advantage without satisfying some abstract definition. Finally, isn't it a form of political correctness to avoid entirely the question that brought readers to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.215.175.61 ( talk) 17:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
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Adowell0007 ( talk) 03:10, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
Otherwise known as leftism.
A recent edit used the Oxford Companion to Comparative Politics as a source (not exactly accurately, it seems), which I haven't seen before. Its section on fascism looks like a useful overview of the topic that would help with refactoring the lead. As noted previously, the current version is full of rambling theorising about World War 1 and claims about what fascists supposedly "believed". It could be much more succinct on the significance of the war and also be clearer about what characterised fascism, particularly in practice as opposed to purported ideology or beliefs. N-HH talk/ edits 09:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to edit the description that fascism is a right wing political ideology because that is false. The left-right political spectrum is based off of the more government control the further to the left the ideology land on the left-right spectrum. As the right side of the left-right spectrum is less government control you would have classical liberalism, conservatism, libertarians, and the furthest to the right on the right side of the left-right spectrum would be anarchy because that advocates for no government control. Fascism does not advocate any of the things on the right side of the spectrum and to be labeled far-right is misleading and overall incorrect. Because the farthest right you can get is being an anarchist. Except maybe Anarcho-Communists but as I described Anarchists are basically the opposites of communists making anarcho-communists a political contradiction. To specify the left side of the spectrum of the left-right political spectrum just to be through. You would have modern day liberals, fascists, and communists. The far-right label attached to fascism actually came from the Spanish Civil War, where Communists used it as propaganda against the Fascists claiming that they were far-right lunatics. Because well to communists, fascists are far-right lunatics, but aside from an extremely far-left point of view, fascism is a fairly far left type of system. 00:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC) Littlegreen5300 ( talk) 00:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://www.britannica.com/event/Spanish-Civil-War
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/59392 Here is a source that is very in depth on political thought in general and only one labels fascism as far-right while another example separates fascism and Franco (called Franquism) which is labeled as far right. Even though it doesn't fully back me up, I do recommend reading it regardless of that.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Littlegreen5300 (
talk •
contribs)
Read up yourself, you're right to think that no right wing thought would exist in a country is absurd but the main players in the Spanish Civil War were the Nationalists supported by Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and the mainly Stalin supported the Spanish Republicans. I mean just read up here is a third party source detailing events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlegreen5300 ( talk • contribs)
The Doctrine of Fascism Authorized translation of Mussolini's "The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism" (1933) (PDF). media.wix.com. Readings on Fascism and National Socialism by Various – Project Gutenberg Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt – Umberto Eco's list of 14 characteristics of Fascism, originally published 1995.
Using the external links that Wikipedia gives itself on Fascism doesn't align with the right wing on the left-wing spectrum, Mussolini himself had a paragraph titled, REJECTION OF INDIVIDUALISM AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE STATE. The first sentence stating, Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism. So it is against individualism and against materialism which in this case I'm pretty sure he's talking about Economic materialism which is certainly not a socialist ideal.Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
/info/en/?search=Economic_materialism (there I'll reference Wikipedia itself.) Fascism is not socialism but Fascism is definitely not right wing, at least economically, I could go further but it seems others have done a way better job at trying to convince Wikipedia that fascism is not a far right political ideology so regardless of what I say about it. Also to respond to Ian Thomson's comment about Wikipedia drawing conclusions it seems the evidence to support fascism being a far-right political ideology is one that is up for debate and putting it up on Wikipedia as a far-right political ideology is drawing conclusions which you said Wikipedia doesn't do, so by that alone shouldn't that be reason enough to at least remove any reference to it being far-right?
Littlegreen5300 (
talk) 07:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)little green
Littlegreen5300 (
talk)
07:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Fascism is the State controlling businesses. The Nazis nationalized many industries. The State taking over sectors of the economy such as Healthcare is Socialism. Government incentives for certain crops or forms of energy, may be necessary, but are steps towards Socialism. If the takeover is done by a bunch of people, it is Communism. If done by one person with a pen and a phone, it is Fascism. I realize that my statement is too political for a Wikipedia definition, but no mention of industry is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.26.242.95 ( talk) 15:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Going back to the Webster dictionary, there is no indication that fascism is "right-winged". It is merely a belief in strong control by the government, which is why Hilter (a democratic socialist) was a fascist. The right is believes in the Constitution which is founded on individual liberty; therefore is completely opposite to fascism. Progressives would be best aligned with fascism; however, all mention of right and left should be taken out for purpose of purity and separation of political view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djca73 ( talk • contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Fascism can fall on both sides of the aisle. Revert back to the version from 03:05, 17 November 2015. The current version is biased and inaccurate. Stating that "yet also takes from the far left, with points like: state control of the means of production, and suppression of dissenting view points towards the state and it's beneficiaries" should not be controversial. Didn't mean to delete the previous version. Just meant to state what I think. Fascism can fall on both sides of the political aisle.— Preceding unsigned comment added by You-are-a-liar ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Fascism can also fall under the extreme left as well. There are many critics who after that leftists can be fascists. I-want-truth ( talk) 01:21, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
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Where is your basis for facists being "Right wing" or "extreme right wing"? This is an inaccurate term since those who lean right want smaller government and are against autocracy and a strong central government. Claiming "right wingers" are facists is a smear tactic by Leftists to distract independent thinkers. I reject group think and I am no pleader for any politician. But when your wikipedia definition lies outright about who and what a facist is I must speak up. Facists were Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin for example. They were all ultra leftists and did not believe in freedom for the massses. Get it right and remove your slant or we will oust you your boldfaced ideological lies. 32.97.110.61 ( talk) 21:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The addition of the statement about fascism being on the right end of the political left-right spectrum is misleading and incorrect, as well as self serving to liberals who currently incorrectly consider anyone on the conservative side of politics to be fascist. Particularly given the recent behavior of left leaning liberals stifling free speech on college campuses, this redefining of the word is peculiar and not fooling anyone with a real dictionary. In 2017, the behavior of the left fits the definition of fascism very well. It's better to just leave the association with the left or the right out of the definition. Or you are going to end up with an entire generation of misinformed millennials throwing that word around at anything that they disagree with or that is conservative. JRReynolds ( talk) 03:59, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I've thought long and hard about my accusations regarding misinformed millennial's, and I have determined that I am correct. Thank you for the suggestion. Also, I think you probably could have just left your response as "I don't know much about the topic," and left it at that. And you must be joking about mainstream academic resources being reliable and unbiased. JRReynolds ( talk) 05:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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I strongly object to the characterization of fascism as a right-wing philosphy, as in this sentence:
"Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum."
This is pure editorializing and propaganda, and demonization of conservatives. Perhaps is IS place on the far-right - by biased liberabls. Merriam Webster defines fascism as follows:
1 a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge
"dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" - I would posit that this matches the far LEFT. For example, Obama was a dictatorial leader who imposed severe regulation on business. Social justice warriors, also associated with the left, work to impose social regimentation and control through bullying and attempt at shaming. Forcible suppression of opposition is clearly seen today by groups such as the ironically named Anti-fa who riot and violently attack businesses and conservatives, college campuses and students who refuse to allow free speech from conservatives, and liberals in general who are trying to destroy democracy by removing the duly elected current president with riots, violence, and attacks on businesses and conservatives.
I have read that Wikipedia has a left-wing bias, which I can certainly see in this article and others. Also see http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/102601/how-left-conquered-wikipedia-part-1-david-swindle. So this does not surprise me. However, as someone who has donated several times upon your request (but will not donate again), I ask that you remove the left-wing propaganda aspects of your articles on facism, as you are doing nothing other than supporting and justifying the current violence against right-wing supporters. Otherwise I will wait until my permissions come through and attempt an edit on my own, to remove your biased assignment of facism to the right. Marbief13 ( talk) 17:55, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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Remove the political bias which states "fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum". This is not only not true but it is misleading and now we have actual fascist groups who are among the far left who are using this definition to support their cause. This is dangerous, and if you don't want Wikipedia to be considered "fake news" then these types of biases need to be corrected. There are numerous other requests for this and yet this bias remains. MaxAiring ( talk) 18:03, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
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jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (
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19:10, 28 July 2017 (UTC)"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce,[3] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]"
however,
Fascism is a big government, totalitarian, economic, and political ideology that arose in early twentieth century Europe and came to dominate the social and political systems of Italy under Benito Mussolini and Germany under Adolf Hitler. Fascism was primarily statist in nature, relying on big government solutions and "crony capitalism", and openly hostile towards conventional religion. Fascism was influential in Portugal as well, and had followers in most European countries and in Argentina. The last regime that had some fascist elements, that of Francisco Franco in Spain, came to an end in 1975. Fascism was falsely considered "Far-Right" in politics, mostly due to Joseph Stalin denouncing Hitler and the National Socialists as "right-wing" after World War II, but it in reality was considered closer to the far-Left.[1][2]
1. http://www.regnery.com/books/the-big-lie/ 2. Not Right, Not Left, But a Vital Center, Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., New York Times Magazine, April 4, 1948. http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schlesinger-notrightleft.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.14.204.34 ( talk) 01:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
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Fascism has always been considered a "left wing" philosophy because it involves oppressive government controls on industry and commerce, (similar to socialism). The oppression of opposing views and the restriction of free speech also put Fascism heavily in the "left wing" category. Fascism is the antithesis of conservatism. 2602:301:7735:14E0:2123:8E13:BF3C:E7C ( talk) 15:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
the opening paragraph doesn't include the national socialistic aspects of fascism (??) ... it's misleading saying that it has only far right characteristics, when the socialistic aspects are widely regarded as left. the sentence below would be more accurately written as the following:
Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is either placed on the far-left due to national socialism that characterized the fascist regimes in central and southeastern Europe (Moss, Myra E. (1995), "Origin & Evolution of European Fascism", Claremont McKenna College: 4) or the far-right in southwestern Europe.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikuser2 ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 15 August 2017 (UTC)