This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Farmers Insurance saved my life!
Come on, with a little civility, we can have a decent article. If you want to post legitimate criticism, fire away, but save the editorializing and rumor-mongering for your gripe sites and personal blogs... I did not remove the entire criticism section, only the paragraph lifted word for word from the gripe site. Our friend M4J did that for us. Buzzards39 01:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for removing your paragraph but your response was not ridiculous enough. If a few people want to be childish I can play along. Your paragraph was very well articulated and right on. It was the cute summary of Farmers that got my attention; I didn’t realize you were the only one trying to be civil.
I used to think Wikipedia was a useful tool… Until I read this. I don’t know who published this cute article on Farmers and I don’t care. Now that I know this is the MySpace of encyclopedias I will treat it that way.
The fact remains that thousands of people consult Wikipedia for unbiased, objective information. In the last several weeks, a straightforward entry on an insurance company has been hijacked by the person who runs a gripe site against Farmers. I am doing him the courtesy of leaving in specific examples that he cites, but a comment such as "Worst Insurance Company in the USA", lifted word for word. from his site, is subjective at best. The other goblin is Paul Drockton, AKA "Mormons 4 Justice", a formers Farmers manager who has been on a jihad against all things Farmers the past several months over a dispute dating back to 2002. He has posted on several forums and has a web blog. His main issues seem to be supposed religious discrimination against himself and disagreements with his congressman, who he blames for his story not getting any traction. Buzzards39 05:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC) 71.199.61.26 22:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
If you think he was a former farmers manager I have some ocean front property for sale in Arizona. This guy is from Arlington TX. The same city and state I am live in today. Go to his NEW domain www.farmersinsurancesucks.com formally www.boycottfarmersinsurance.com. Per his website: he received a cease and desist order so he changed his domain to www.farmersinsurancesucks.com. He thinks that there is a conspiracy involving farmers insurance and his claim. The reality is that he needs a job. As far as fair and unbiased I don’t think that’s possible. I agree with you, thousands of people depend on this site for reliable information. I was one of them. Then I see this article which I know to be completely false. You said it yourself he hijacked this article. I am not a regular wikipedia editor, however I do know this article is not biased. What are you suggesting that I do? Let someone use wikipedia as t heirtool of misinformation and slander. I feel that I was pretty liberal to leave half of the article that is in red. I only removed what I know to be false.
What I cannot stand are people who abuse the anonymity of e-commerce. It is people like him who ruin it for everyone because they can hide behind a PC to say things they would never say in person.
The gentleman from Texas posts the criticism articles. As misleading as I consider them to be, if they are based on facts and do not editorialize, they would seem to be acceptable on Wikipedia. M4J is based in Utah and posts the Cannon/Abramoff/Farmers rumors. He thinks that Farmers and his congressman (Cannon) have conspired and spent millions of dollars to ruin his life. Run a Google on "Mormons 4 Justice" and you will see how far and wide he has taken his claims. And now he has found Wikipdia. I'll give you one thing, the fellow is persistent, if more than a bit Quixotic. Buzzards39 14:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed a bunch of the more in-depth stories that while referenced properly seem outside the scope of an encyclopedia article. Neutrality doesn't mean we cannot write negative material, and I find it hard to believe that there is no positive material out there...and if we need to add a bunch of positive feel good stuff to balance Ethel Adams etc then the article spins off into another world. I'm willing to discuss this with other editors and see if we can come to a reasonable balance to turn this into a quality article for the encyclopedia.
In addition, I removed the EL to farmersinsurancesucks.com. Aside from having an overt bias, it was not itself a primary source but instead was a clearinghouse of links to possibly primary sources. Regards. Syrthiss 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization...
– WP:NPOV |
The entire section of community relations is not a neutral presenmtation of Farmers. Its a WP:COPYVIO from a website they conntrol and use for self-promotion.
Examples:
Wikipedia article | Farmers promotion | Web link |
---|---|---|
"The Farmers Companies operate in 41 states across the country, servicing more than 15 million customers through the efforts of approximately 18,000 employees and 17,500 agents who are independent-contractor and independent agents." | "Farmers Insurance Group of Companies is based in Los Angeles, California, and operates in 41 states across the country through the efforts of approximately 18,000 employees. Our agents, independent contractors and independent agents, along with Farmers employees, are responsible for servicing more than 15 million customers" | google cache |
"Since Farmers founding in 1928, Farmerss Insurance has been committed to improving the communities in which our customers, agents and employees live and work. Investing in our communities is nothing new to Farmers - for many decades, we’ve been proud, active partners in bettering the lives of our neighbors across the country" | "Since our founding in 1928, we have been committed to improving the communities where our customers, agents and employees live and work. Investing in our communities is nothing new to Farmers. We have been proud, active partners in bettering the lives of our neighbors across the country for many decades." | Farmers.com |
"Farmers Insurance believes that our country’s diverse groups and cultures enrich every American. To promote greater cross-cultural understanding, Farmers has created a program honoring the Hispanic/Latino culture called
Young Americanos. Young Americanos reflects our commitment to the Latino community and to building bridges of communication and understanding among all the cultures making up the United States" |
"Farmers believes every American is enriched by the many contributions made by diverse groups and cultures in the United States. To promote understanding, Farmers has created a program honoring Hispanic culture called Young Americanos. Young Americanos is a reflection of our commitment to the Latino community and to strengthening the bridges of communication and understanding among all the diverse cultures that make up the United States." | Farmers.com |
I've removed sections which seem to be promotional POV, based upon copyvio. Wikipedia articles need to be based upon a neutral point of view and should not involve conflict of interest or promotion of ones business affiliations. FT2 ( Talk | email) 02:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia article | Farmers promotion | Web link |
---|---|---|
"Farmers agents aren’t employees; they’re independent contractors who can conduct business on their own terms, given they comply with Farmers Companies’ guidelines and normal good-business practices.
This independence allows Farmers agents to live their lives the way they choose, not the way someone else chooses. One of the unique benefits of Farmers is its comprehensive product offering." [5] |
"Farmers Agents aren’t employees; they’re independent contractors who can conduct business on their own terms, given they comply with Farmers Companies’ guidelines and normal good-business practices.
This independence allows Farmers agents to live their lives the way they choose, not the way someone else chooses. One of the unique benefits of Farmers is its comprehensive product offering." |
careerbuilder.com |
I am copying this from the talk page of Router. You may draw your own conclusions:
I thought we had reached a tenable compromise on the Farmers page, but you *apparently* want to contest each and every positive thing posted, while leaving your criticisms unchallenged. I openly disclosed my interest as a Farmers agent both to the admins and and on my talk page, so others could draw their own conclusions as to the value of my edits. If you are the owner, operator, a contributor, or in any way connected to the Farmers gripe site, it is time for you to be open about that as well, as every "Criticism" cite is directly taken from that webpage. I'm not contesting your right to good faith editing, just asking that you be above board as to where your interests and possible agenda come from. Buzzards39 14:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Buzz, you posted information that cited the company's own web page. I am just agreeing with FT2. A company should not manufacture its own news to be cited on Wikimedia. It is a blatant conflict of interest and is certainly not a reliable source. Any information I would like to reveal about myself can be found on my User page. Thank you for your interest. Router 15:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Buzz everything you added to this page really should be deleted. If you are a Farmers Agent you are certainly a COI, "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors". Not only are you editing an article you shouldn't be, you are citing information directly from your company web site. Router 16:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
When I made edits, I disclosed the nature of my relationship to both Syrthiss and LT2. In fact, I asked LT2 to review my edits to ensure that I had maintained NPOV. I was told specificially that as long as I was up front about it, there was not a problem. Remember, I am an independent contractor, not an employee. You have been cautioned about being a "Single purpose account" by the same Srythiss, and in fact, there was a debate on the admin page as to whether you should be blocked from editing due to this reason. Why are you not willing to be up front about your relationship or lack therof to gripe sites? All that does is fuel suspicion. If it is your site, then let readers judge for themselves what your agenda may or may not be. If you have no connection, then at least declare what your interest is. What you are "willing to reveal" only seems to reveal that you have something to hide. (IMHO) 70.103.176.242 20:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Router"
Again, I just want everyones possible motives, including my own, to be above board. Buzzards39 20:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I recently added three links noting community criticism of Farmers Insurance in (what I thought) was the appropriate section of the article. It was reverted, which is fine, except I don't fully understand what I did wrong? Farmers has the most complaints of a national carrier, and as far as I can tell the most gripe sites about it as well. If I understand correctly, the issue with the gripe site links is that they are not primary sources? would linking to a clearinghouse of gripesites in general (www.webgripesites.com) be more acceptable? Cheers, -nB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Networkboy ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
I found this article via the critic sites that I added to the article. According to the real bad accounts of those sites, it appears the article may be constantly checked by Farmers people and "fixed", so I'm putting the links here too:
I have never done business with these guys, this is the first time I heard about them, I'm trying to include interesting and informative links to the article... Towsonu2003 04:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of links, and there seems to be significant consensus that attack sites should not be linked. I can guarantee that www.parishiltonsucks.com isn't trying to be a balanced accounting of Paris Hilton's life, and the sites above are exactly the same. As always, if there are specific reliably sourced negative information that is within the scope of the article then add it and source it. Syrthiss 12:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the website for the CA dept. of Insurance, since the claim is posted in the article that Famers is the "worst" in this state. According to the ratio of "Justified complaints", Farmers is not the worst by a long shot. They ranked ahead of Allstate, Travelers, Allied, and many other national carriers. I will be taking a look at other states, and if they are the "worst" among major carriers, I will leave the state up. If not, I will edit it. I'm not trying to affect a whitewash, just striving for accuracy. As I have stated before, in the interest of full disclosure,I am not an employee of Farmers, and my actions are my own, and not on their behalf, though I do sell their products as an agent. Buzzards39 16:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Further perusal of states Insurance department reports reveals that the only state on the list where Farmers had the hightest complaint ratio among major carriers was in Kansas. In every other state, Farmers had a lower ratio than many other carriers. There were other insurers in KS with worse ratios, but they were not major players in the market, so I did leave that up. Among the carriers with consistiently worse ratios were: Progressive, Allstate, Safeco, American Family, AIG. State Farm and USAA had consistiently lower ratios, Gieco, Liberty Mutual, and Nationwide were both higher and lower depending on the state. Buzzards39 18:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Buzzards39, The "See Also" has links to other articles releveant to Farmers Insurance. There doesn't need to be a source to link to other articles. If you don't find these "See Also" links to on other insurance companies you are welcome to add them. Do not remove the link from the article. Router 15:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I checked the links on the "Bad Faith" article, found only one which referred to Farmers among a blizzard of legal cites to a myriad of other companies, which would seem to make my point... And there is this note from an admin the last time you created a "See also" section: 18:51, 25 February 2007 FCYTravis (Talk | contribs) (→See also - We don't "see also" external links.). So not only is the link problematic from an NPOV point of view, but the whole idea of a "see also" section of the article has been judged inappropriate by an uninvolved third party. I humbly submit that the best course of action would be for you to revert the edit yourself. And I am still curious what your issue is with Farmers. You and anyone who reads this discussion knows where I am coming from, but all you say is that you "may consider yourself an expert". But your expertise does not seem to extend to other insurance companies or topics. Are you a customer who had a dispute? A competitor? The owner of the gripe site, as I have postulated? A little disclosure would go a long way towards understanding-maybe even accepting-your edits. Have a nice one :-) Buzzards39 16:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Who give a hoot which section comes first? I dont, but " 75.72.208.202" does, so what is the big stinkin' deal, Mr. Router, or should I call you "Routerboy" like you used in your scam.com posting linking directly to your gripe site? He has just as much of a right to make edits as you do, maybe more, since we know of your derision of anything to do with Farmers. I'll leave it up to him to decide if he wants to undo your revert, but this is not your personal soapbox.
Sorry about leaving the sig of my last post. I was using a different PC, didn't notice that I was not signed in. However, the point remains that the operator of a gripe site is the last person who should be complaining about NPOV-or making edits to supposedly restore said NPOV. I've said it before, I'll say it again, you will ignore it, but anyone reading this discussion page can make their own judgements. You are the owner and operator of a gripe site pertaining to Farmers Insurance. This is not your personal soapbox. If you want to post criticism, you should openly identify your relationship to said gripe site, as I have openly disclosed my relationship to Farmers. If you want to assert that you have no such relationship, then you need to explain why the great majority of your posts are related to this article and all of them are negative. Nuff said. Buzzards39 15:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
So I was looking through my old contributions, when I came to this page. Why does the main article link redirect here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Old m ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
You have screwed up this article! Please use a sandbox til you know how to cite materials. Router 14:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Whatever small problem my typo may have caused, you just tried to re-hijack this article. It is NOT your sandbox for whatever problems you personally have with Farmers. Last winter/spring, every time an admin had to get involved, you were shot down. I have restored phrasing that is not soapbox in nature, the only entries I removed were the links to two gripe sites. Buzzards39 01:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. Better yet, edit the article yourself with the improvements in place. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted. Jjdon ( talk) 22:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, Mr. Router, I don't want a repeat of the edit/revert wars that we went through a few months back. But I am not willing to surrender control of this article to the owner of a gripe site with an axe to grind. If we have to, I am willing to seek a third opinion and abide by that. Briefly put, here are my issues:
-You are not in a position to be lecturing on NPOV or Conflicts of interest. You won't come out and admit it, but you ARE the operator of a Farmers gripe site. On another website where links to that site are posted, the user "Routerboy" says that he is an IT guy from the Pacific Northwest. And on the gripe site, scanned documents referring to a court dispute between the owner of said site and Farmers Insurance are from a court in Washington State. I am an agent who sells Farmers Insurance products-but I have always been up front and above board about that. When you are asked about your interest, you have repeatedly refused to forthcoming. "I may consider myself to be an expert" hardly qualifies.
-Many of your edits to this article use language taken word for word from that site.
-The statistics you cite in the criticisms section you created and have maintained are misleading and designed to put Farmers in the worst possible light. For example, in citing JD Powers studies, you only mention the lowest rankings, not the categories where Farmers was ranked higher, nor do you mention the overall average, which is not the lowest by any means. In citing complaint statistics, you only mention the total number of complaints, even though an admin several months ago told you that the Complaint Ratio was a much more relevant statistic. I.E., if you have 20% market share and twice the number of complaints of a company with 5% share, your ratio is only half of the smaller company. But you have edited out references to complaint ratios several times, while leaving in your cherry-picked examples of isolated years in individual states.
-"Fight Bad Faith Insurance" is also a gripe site, run by lawyers who make a living suing Insurers for alleged "Bad Faith". They offer no statistics behind their rankings, the rankings on that site are purely their own. And even they put Farmers ranking better that their position in the industry (#3 in premiums written for home/auto, but #6 on their bad list-so if they are using objective statistics, then Farmers is better than the industry).
I'm sure that you have some issues with my edits, you are free to post them on this discussion board as well. I will cross post this to your talk page so that you can have a chance to look at it. Do you want to call for a third opinion, or should I? Buzzards39 21:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Router"
Pot/Kettle/Black on NPOV and COI, Mr. Router sir. I posted a request for a third opinion from someone without an agenda. I will refrain from making edits for a short time in order to allow that process to sort itself out, but your deceptive and incomplete criticisms belie your bias, IMHO, of course. Buzzards39 06:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed the issues with the page. You guys have a lot of work to do; I'll stick around and keep an eye on things. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 07:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
This issue with original research is new to me. If I understand it, then citing a ranking by a citable source is legit, but cherry-picking parts of a report, or not only posting the results you agree with, constitutes original research ? How about the problem with citing complaint statistics only from certain states in those years where Farmers had the highest absolute number of complaints, regardless of the ratio issue that was my original point? And would someone looking at those same reports and posting the ratio numbers or a summary of what the ratios reveal be conducting this dreaded original research? Finally, once we get this all sorted out, how-or who-makes the edits to bring the article into compliance? Router certainly isn't going to do it, and history has shown that he will blow a gasket if I do, though if guidance is recieved from a neutral party and I get the go-ahead, I'll be happy to take the heat, I just don't want to descend into a revert war. Buzzards39 05:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems like the OR issue is a bit of a nit to pick. The main issue of NPOV remains and would seem to be the crux of the matter. In this case, it is the presenting of legitimate references in such a way as to put the most negative light on the company at hand, and the link to the "Bad Faith" site. I have no problem with legit criticism. The newspaper articles cited did happen, and would seem to be within guidelines. It is the rankings and the complaint statistics that have been twisted around. These citations and much of the verbage have been lifted almost verbatim from the gripe site that I allege Router operates for reasons listed above. My real question is: Where do we go from here? Even though he has not participated in this back and forth, you can be sure that Mr. Router is lurking, and if I make any edits to his critiques, will pounce and revert and try to warn me off, and we are right back where we were a few days ago. Buzzards39 05:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Router sir: Thanks for that. The lasest reference posted, however, is another illustration of what I have been talking about in regards to painting statistics in the worst possible light. Yes, Farmers did have the highest number of absolute complaints due to its high market share, but the following major insurers in Washington had worse complaint ratios: Auto: Esurance, AIG, Gieco, Hartford, and many other small companies. Homeowners: Allstate, Hartford, Safeco, Metropolitan, plus a host of small players. The Washington Department of Insurance rates Farmers as being "Slightly above average" according to their ranking. It is also worth noting that this ie one year in one state. But to read the statement in the critisicm section, it only says that Farmers has the highest number. Most readers of this article are not going to dig down into the statistics to see what the statement really means. So the statement, while literally true, is not nuetral, and is in fact deliberately misleading. This is why I am asking uninterested parties to take a look at this article, since any edits by me provoke a furious reaction by you, and your own personal biases lead you to try to make this article one sided against Farmers. I admit my own biases, but am trying to help craft an objective piece that while not whitewashing any problems, is at least evenhanded. Buzzards39 16:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Farmers Insurance saved my life!
Come on, with a little civility, we can have a decent article. If you want to post legitimate criticism, fire away, but save the editorializing and rumor-mongering for your gripe sites and personal blogs... I did not remove the entire criticism section, only the paragraph lifted word for word from the gripe site. Our friend M4J did that for us. Buzzards39 01:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for removing your paragraph but your response was not ridiculous enough. If a few people want to be childish I can play along. Your paragraph was very well articulated and right on. It was the cute summary of Farmers that got my attention; I didn’t realize you were the only one trying to be civil.
I used to think Wikipedia was a useful tool… Until I read this. I don’t know who published this cute article on Farmers and I don’t care. Now that I know this is the MySpace of encyclopedias I will treat it that way.
The fact remains that thousands of people consult Wikipedia for unbiased, objective information. In the last several weeks, a straightforward entry on an insurance company has been hijacked by the person who runs a gripe site against Farmers. I am doing him the courtesy of leaving in specific examples that he cites, but a comment such as "Worst Insurance Company in the USA", lifted word for word. from his site, is subjective at best. The other goblin is Paul Drockton, AKA "Mormons 4 Justice", a formers Farmers manager who has been on a jihad against all things Farmers the past several months over a dispute dating back to 2002. He has posted on several forums and has a web blog. His main issues seem to be supposed religious discrimination against himself and disagreements with his congressman, who he blames for his story not getting any traction. Buzzards39 05:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC) 71.199.61.26 22:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
If you think he was a former farmers manager I have some ocean front property for sale in Arizona. This guy is from Arlington TX. The same city and state I am live in today. Go to his NEW domain www.farmersinsurancesucks.com formally www.boycottfarmersinsurance.com. Per his website: he received a cease and desist order so he changed his domain to www.farmersinsurancesucks.com. He thinks that there is a conspiracy involving farmers insurance and his claim. The reality is that he needs a job. As far as fair and unbiased I don’t think that’s possible. I agree with you, thousands of people depend on this site for reliable information. I was one of them. Then I see this article which I know to be completely false. You said it yourself he hijacked this article. I am not a regular wikipedia editor, however I do know this article is not biased. What are you suggesting that I do? Let someone use wikipedia as t heirtool of misinformation and slander. I feel that I was pretty liberal to leave half of the article that is in red. I only removed what I know to be false.
What I cannot stand are people who abuse the anonymity of e-commerce. It is people like him who ruin it for everyone because they can hide behind a PC to say things they would never say in person.
The gentleman from Texas posts the criticism articles. As misleading as I consider them to be, if they are based on facts and do not editorialize, they would seem to be acceptable on Wikipedia. M4J is based in Utah and posts the Cannon/Abramoff/Farmers rumors. He thinks that Farmers and his congressman (Cannon) have conspired and spent millions of dollars to ruin his life. Run a Google on "Mormons 4 Justice" and you will see how far and wide he has taken his claims. And now he has found Wikipdia. I'll give you one thing, the fellow is persistent, if more than a bit Quixotic. Buzzards39 14:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed a bunch of the more in-depth stories that while referenced properly seem outside the scope of an encyclopedia article. Neutrality doesn't mean we cannot write negative material, and I find it hard to believe that there is no positive material out there...and if we need to add a bunch of positive feel good stuff to balance Ethel Adams etc then the article spins off into another world. I'm willing to discuss this with other editors and see if we can come to a reasonable balance to turn this into a quality article for the encyclopedia.
In addition, I removed the EL to farmersinsurancesucks.com. Aside from having an overt bias, it was not itself a primary source but instead was a clearinghouse of links to possibly primary sources. Regards. Syrthiss 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization...
– WP:NPOV |
The entire section of community relations is not a neutral presenmtation of Farmers. Its a WP:COPYVIO from a website they conntrol and use for self-promotion.
Examples:
Wikipedia article | Farmers promotion | Web link |
---|---|---|
"The Farmers Companies operate in 41 states across the country, servicing more than 15 million customers through the efforts of approximately 18,000 employees and 17,500 agents who are independent-contractor and independent agents." | "Farmers Insurance Group of Companies is based in Los Angeles, California, and operates in 41 states across the country through the efforts of approximately 18,000 employees. Our agents, independent contractors and independent agents, along with Farmers employees, are responsible for servicing more than 15 million customers" | google cache |
"Since Farmers founding in 1928, Farmerss Insurance has been committed to improving the communities in which our customers, agents and employees live and work. Investing in our communities is nothing new to Farmers - for many decades, we’ve been proud, active partners in bettering the lives of our neighbors across the country" | "Since our founding in 1928, we have been committed to improving the communities where our customers, agents and employees live and work. Investing in our communities is nothing new to Farmers. We have been proud, active partners in bettering the lives of our neighbors across the country for many decades." | Farmers.com |
"Farmers Insurance believes that our country’s diverse groups and cultures enrich every American. To promote greater cross-cultural understanding, Farmers has created a program honoring the Hispanic/Latino culture called
Young Americanos. Young Americanos reflects our commitment to the Latino community and to building bridges of communication and understanding among all the cultures making up the United States" |
"Farmers believes every American is enriched by the many contributions made by diverse groups and cultures in the United States. To promote understanding, Farmers has created a program honoring Hispanic culture called Young Americanos. Young Americanos is a reflection of our commitment to the Latino community and to strengthening the bridges of communication and understanding among all the diverse cultures that make up the United States." | Farmers.com |
I've removed sections which seem to be promotional POV, based upon copyvio. Wikipedia articles need to be based upon a neutral point of view and should not involve conflict of interest or promotion of ones business affiliations. FT2 ( Talk | email) 02:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia article | Farmers promotion | Web link |
---|---|---|
"Farmers agents aren’t employees; they’re independent contractors who can conduct business on their own terms, given they comply with Farmers Companies’ guidelines and normal good-business practices.
This independence allows Farmers agents to live their lives the way they choose, not the way someone else chooses. One of the unique benefits of Farmers is its comprehensive product offering." [5] |
"Farmers Agents aren’t employees; they’re independent contractors who can conduct business on their own terms, given they comply with Farmers Companies’ guidelines and normal good-business practices.
This independence allows Farmers agents to live their lives the way they choose, not the way someone else chooses. One of the unique benefits of Farmers is its comprehensive product offering." |
careerbuilder.com |
I am copying this from the talk page of Router. You may draw your own conclusions:
I thought we had reached a tenable compromise on the Farmers page, but you *apparently* want to contest each and every positive thing posted, while leaving your criticisms unchallenged. I openly disclosed my interest as a Farmers agent both to the admins and and on my talk page, so others could draw their own conclusions as to the value of my edits. If you are the owner, operator, a contributor, or in any way connected to the Farmers gripe site, it is time for you to be open about that as well, as every "Criticism" cite is directly taken from that webpage. I'm not contesting your right to good faith editing, just asking that you be above board as to where your interests and possible agenda come from. Buzzards39 14:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Buzz, you posted information that cited the company's own web page. I am just agreeing with FT2. A company should not manufacture its own news to be cited on Wikimedia. It is a blatant conflict of interest and is certainly not a reliable source. Any information I would like to reveal about myself can be found on my User page. Thank you for your interest. Router 15:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Buzz everything you added to this page really should be deleted. If you are a Farmers Agent you are certainly a COI, "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors". Not only are you editing an article you shouldn't be, you are citing information directly from your company web site. Router 16:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
When I made edits, I disclosed the nature of my relationship to both Syrthiss and LT2. In fact, I asked LT2 to review my edits to ensure that I had maintained NPOV. I was told specificially that as long as I was up front about it, there was not a problem. Remember, I am an independent contractor, not an employee. You have been cautioned about being a "Single purpose account" by the same Srythiss, and in fact, there was a debate on the admin page as to whether you should be blocked from editing due to this reason. Why are you not willing to be up front about your relationship or lack therof to gripe sites? All that does is fuel suspicion. If it is your site, then let readers judge for themselves what your agenda may or may not be. If you have no connection, then at least declare what your interest is. What you are "willing to reveal" only seems to reveal that you have something to hide. (IMHO) 70.103.176.242 20:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Router"
Again, I just want everyones possible motives, including my own, to be above board. Buzzards39 20:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I recently added three links noting community criticism of Farmers Insurance in (what I thought) was the appropriate section of the article. It was reverted, which is fine, except I don't fully understand what I did wrong? Farmers has the most complaints of a national carrier, and as far as I can tell the most gripe sites about it as well. If I understand correctly, the issue with the gripe site links is that they are not primary sources? would linking to a clearinghouse of gripesites in general (www.webgripesites.com) be more acceptable? Cheers, -nB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Networkboy ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
I found this article via the critic sites that I added to the article. According to the real bad accounts of those sites, it appears the article may be constantly checked by Farmers people and "fixed", so I'm putting the links here too:
I have never done business with these guys, this is the first time I heard about them, I'm trying to include interesting and informative links to the article... Towsonu2003 04:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of links, and there seems to be significant consensus that attack sites should not be linked. I can guarantee that www.parishiltonsucks.com isn't trying to be a balanced accounting of Paris Hilton's life, and the sites above are exactly the same. As always, if there are specific reliably sourced negative information that is within the scope of the article then add it and source it. Syrthiss 12:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the website for the CA dept. of Insurance, since the claim is posted in the article that Famers is the "worst" in this state. According to the ratio of "Justified complaints", Farmers is not the worst by a long shot. They ranked ahead of Allstate, Travelers, Allied, and many other national carriers. I will be taking a look at other states, and if they are the "worst" among major carriers, I will leave the state up. If not, I will edit it. I'm not trying to affect a whitewash, just striving for accuracy. As I have stated before, in the interest of full disclosure,I am not an employee of Farmers, and my actions are my own, and not on their behalf, though I do sell their products as an agent. Buzzards39 16:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Further perusal of states Insurance department reports reveals that the only state on the list where Farmers had the hightest complaint ratio among major carriers was in Kansas. In every other state, Farmers had a lower ratio than many other carriers. There were other insurers in KS with worse ratios, but they were not major players in the market, so I did leave that up. Among the carriers with consistiently worse ratios were: Progressive, Allstate, Safeco, American Family, AIG. State Farm and USAA had consistiently lower ratios, Gieco, Liberty Mutual, and Nationwide were both higher and lower depending on the state. Buzzards39 18:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Buzzards39, The "See Also" has links to other articles releveant to Farmers Insurance. There doesn't need to be a source to link to other articles. If you don't find these "See Also" links to on other insurance companies you are welcome to add them. Do not remove the link from the article. Router 15:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I checked the links on the "Bad Faith" article, found only one which referred to Farmers among a blizzard of legal cites to a myriad of other companies, which would seem to make my point... And there is this note from an admin the last time you created a "See also" section: 18:51, 25 February 2007 FCYTravis (Talk | contribs) (→See also - We don't "see also" external links.). So not only is the link problematic from an NPOV point of view, but the whole idea of a "see also" section of the article has been judged inappropriate by an uninvolved third party. I humbly submit that the best course of action would be for you to revert the edit yourself. And I am still curious what your issue is with Farmers. You and anyone who reads this discussion knows where I am coming from, but all you say is that you "may consider yourself an expert". But your expertise does not seem to extend to other insurance companies or topics. Are you a customer who had a dispute? A competitor? The owner of the gripe site, as I have postulated? A little disclosure would go a long way towards understanding-maybe even accepting-your edits. Have a nice one :-) Buzzards39 16:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Who give a hoot which section comes first? I dont, but " 75.72.208.202" does, so what is the big stinkin' deal, Mr. Router, or should I call you "Routerboy" like you used in your scam.com posting linking directly to your gripe site? He has just as much of a right to make edits as you do, maybe more, since we know of your derision of anything to do with Farmers. I'll leave it up to him to decide if he wants to undo your revert, but this is not your personal soapbox.
Sorry about leaving the sig of my last post. I was using a different PC, didn't notice that I was not signed in. However, the point remains that the operator of a gripe site is the last person who should be complaining about NPOV-or making edits to supposedly restore said NPOV. I've said it before, I'll say it again, you will ignore it, but anyone reading this discussion page can make their own judgements. You are the owner and operator of a gripe site pertaining to Farmers Insurance. This is not your personal soapbox. If you want to post criticism, you should openly identify your relationship to said gripe site, as I have openly disclosed my relationship to Farmers. If you want to assert that you have no such relationship, then you need to explain why the great majority of your posts are related to this article and all of them are negative. Nuff said. Buzzards39 15:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
So I was looking through my old contributions, when I came to this page. Why does the main article link redirect here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Old m ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
You have screwed up this article! Please use a sandbox til you know how to cite materials. Router 14:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Whatever small problem my typo may have caused, you just tried to re-hijack this article. It is NOT your sandbox for whatever problems you personally have with Farmers. Last winter/spring, every time an admin had to get involved, you were shot down. I have restored phrasing that is not soapbox in nature, the only entries I removed were the links to two gripe sites. Buzzards39 01:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. Better yet, edit the article yourself with the improvements in place. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted. Jjdon ( talk) 22:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, Mr. Router, I don't want a repeat of the edit/revert wars that we went through a few months back. But I am not willing to surrender control of this article to the owner of a gripe site with an axe to grind. If we have to, I am willing to seek a third opinion and abide by that. Briefly put, here are my issues:
-You are not in a position to be lecturing on NPOV or Conflicts of interest. You won't come out and admit it, but you ARE the operator of a Farmers gripe site. On another website where links to that site are posted, the user "Routerboy" says that he is an IT guy from the Pacific Northwest. And on the gripe site, scanned documents referring to a court dispute between the owner of said site and Farmers Insurance are from a court in Washington State. I am an agent who sells Farmers Insurance products-but I have always been up front and above board about that. When you are asked about your interest, you have repeatedly refused to forthcoming. "I may consider myself to be an expert" hardly qualifies.
-Many of your edits to this article use language taken word for word from that site.
-The statistics you cite in the criticisms section you created and have maintained are misleading and designed to put Farmers in the worst possible light. For example, in citing JD Powers studies, you only mention the lowest rankings, not the categories where Farmers was ranked higher, nor do you mention the overall average, which is not the lowest by any means. In citing complaint statistics, you only mention the total number of complaints, even though an admin several months ago told you that the Complaint Ratio was a much more relevant statistic. I.E., if you have 20% market share and twice the number of complaints of a company with 5% share, your ratio is only half of the smaller company. But you have edited out references to complaint ratios several times, while leaving in your cherry-picked examples of isolated years in individual states.
-"Fight Bad Faith Insurance" is also a gripe site, run by lawyers who make a living suing Insurers for alleged "Bad Faith". They offer no statistics behind their rankings, the rankings on that site are purely their own. And even they put Farmers ranking better that their position in the industry (#3 in premiums written for home/auto, but #6 on their bad list-so if they are using objective statistics, then Farmers is better than the industry).
I'm sure that you have some issues with my edits, you are free to post them on this discussion board as well. I will cross post this to your talk page so that you can have a chance to look at it. Do you want to call for a third opinion, or should I? Buzzards39 21:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Router"
Pot/Kettle/Black on NPOV and COI, Mr. Router sir. I posted a request for a third opinion from someone without an agenda. I will refrain from making edits for a short time in order to allow that process to sort itself out, but your deceptive and incomplete criticisms belie your bias, IMHO, of course. Buzzards39 06:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed the issues with the page. You guys have a lot of work to do; I'll stick around and keep an eye on things. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 07:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
This issue with original research is new to me. If I understand it, then citing a ranking by a citable source is legit, but cherry-picking parts of a report, or not only posting the results you agree with, constitutes original research ? How about the problem with citing complaint statistics only from certain states in those years where Farmers had the highest absolute number of complaints, regardless of the ratio issue that was my original point? And would someone looking at those same reports and posting the ratio numbers or a summary of what the ratios reveal be conducting this dreaded original research? Finally, once we get this all sorted out, how-or who-makes the edits to bring the article into compliance? Router certainly isn't going to do it, and history has shown that he will blow a gasket if I do, though if guidance is recieved from a neutral party and I get the go-ahead, I'll be happy to take the heat, I just don't want to descend into a revert war. Buzzards39 05:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems like the OR issue is a bit of a nit to pick. The main issue of NPOV remains and would seem to be the crux of the matter. In this case, it is the presenting of legitimate references in such a way as to put the most negative light on the company at hand, and the link to the "Bad Faith" site. I have no problem with legit criticism. The newspaper articles cited did happen, and would seem to be within guidelines. It is the rankings and the complaint statistics that have been twisted around. These citations and much of the verbage have been lifted almost verbatim from the gripe site that I allege Router operates for reasons listed above. My real question is: Where do we go from here? Even though he has not participated in this back and forth, you can be sure that Mr. Router is lurking, and if I make any edits to his critiques, will pounce and revert and try to warn me off, and we are right back where we were a few days ago. Buzzards39 05:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Router sir: Thanks for that. The lasest reference posted, however, is another illustration of what I have been talking about in regards to painting statistics in the worst possible light. Yes, Farmers did have the highest number of absolute complaints due to its high market share, but the following major insurers in Washington had worse complaint ratios: Auto: Esurance, AIG, Gieco, Hartford, and many other small companies. Homeowners: Allstate, Hartford, Safeco, Metropolitan, plus a host of small players. The Washington Department of Insurance rates Farmers as being "Slightly above average" according to their ranking. It is also worth noting that this ie one year in one state. But to read the statement in the critisicm section, it only says that Farmers has the highest number. Most readers of this article are not going to dig down into the statistics to see what the statement really means. So the statement, while literally true, is not nuetral, and is in fact deliberately misleading. This is why I am asking uninterested parties to take a look at this article, since any edits by me provoke a furious reaction by you, and your own personal biases lead you to try to make this article one sided against Farmers. I admit my own biases, but am trying to help craft an objective piece that while not whitewashing any problems, is at least evenhanded. Buzzards39 16:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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