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This is an archive of the naming debate from March 11 (the Straw Poll), through the unprotection, up to (roughly) March 30. Please do not further modify this page.
(No reference to the current UK foreign secretary)
OK Guys it seems that whatever arguments are invoked nobody is being convinced, lets see how the numbers stack up for the active participants simply add your signature to the appropriate list:
Note: one line will do, we do not need a essay here.
A) To add foreign language names at the beginning conform Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Foreign language names are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages. Note: this is a partial quote of a proposed policy: see C) below.
B) To show them in context in the second paragraph as previous.
C) To show foreign language names in a names section in conformity with proposed policy Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a names section immediately following the lead. In this case, the redundant list of the names in the article's first line should be replaced with the following text: (known also by several alternative names Names). Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line.
Add your signatures between the lines and lets see how the numbers stack up. Keep it real. -- Gibnews 17:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the "policy" is a proposal, developed in reference to Eastern Europe, and while the talk page proposes adding it to to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)#General issues, this had not yet been done. The proposed policy paragraph includes an option for a naming section or paragraph, and I propose that this option be taken. .. dave souza, talk 08:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Note that this is labeled as a straw poll just to get a feel on what people think in order to try and resolve an endless argument rather than any attempt to 'make policy' Also at last, a good use for lines !
Thanks to Darklegions changing it to a more standard layout as I haven't a clue how its been done before and to dave souza for inclusion alternative C which I would support although B is IMNSHO quite satifactory.
Lets run it for 10 days and see.-- Gibnews 09:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Everyone, please remember that polls are evil and Wikipedia is not a democracy. As this is a straw poll, the guidance that "If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place" presumably applies. Jon, it's naughty to change the title to suit your position: gonnae no dae that? I've changed it back to foreign, which in this context means not English language. If you want to claim that Malvinas is English language as well as historical, that deserves a new section of discussion. Let's hope that a consensus can be found, using the proposed policy which despite my initial concerns seems well considered to deal with such disputes. .. dave souza, talk 18:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As previously stated, I find no support in the proposed placaname policy for including the French name, whose association with the islands (in any language other than French) is probably limited to a discussion of early history and etymology. The Spanish name on the other hand, is commonly mentioned as an alternative, due to recent current events and the continued dispute, even though its usage is neither official nor local/indigenous. // Big Adamsky 21:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC) PS: Considering how many obscure alternative exonyms there are for Germany and China, imagine how it would look if those articles were to be filled up with foreign or historical names! =P
It should be noted that the Spanish translation of the Falkland Islands is Islas Falklands. It has already been noted that this is used in the Spanish speaking Chile. Argentina names many regions in the South Atlantic with different names to reflect their territorial claims. For example King George Island is called Isla Veinticinco de Mayo in Argentina, yet the Spanish wiki calls it Isla Rey Jorge and not the unoffical Argentine name.
Most offical Spanish language situations will use Islas Falklands eg the European Union Astrotrain 20:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The foreign name is used to assert a claim to the territory against the wishes of the people who live there. In the same way that we all have the right to call ourselves whatever we like and pronounce our names the way we chose, so have people in a territory and trying to call a spade a pointed shovel to make a political point has no place in an information resource apart from as an aside that it happens.-- Gibnews 10:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet more claims:
Last week, Chávez specifically demanded to Tony Blair that Great Britain return the Maldives to Argentina, eventually calling Blair who refused, an “imperialist pawn” see this Do they teach geography in the US? -- Gibnews 23:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Your statement only confirms your lack of community service, Venezuela is not Argentina; if you're trying to deliberately change the vote of American wikipedians you're wasting your time. -- Darklegions 02:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Its not clear who the above is directed at; if its me then I suggest you read more carefully and look at a map. Wonder what the Spanish name for the Netherland Antilles is.-- Gibnews 09:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is not just a historical name as your preferred translation gets 848 hits with the unofficial name gets over 8,000,000 hits. So much for the offical translation. So start with the fact that Islas Malvinas is a commonly used name, or would you like to deny that? As it is commonly used, it should be mentioned as a commonly used name. KimvdLinde 03:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
In this article, and Politics of the Falkland Islands it says the governor represents the Queen, which is technically true. But, could we put in the article the person who actually picks the governor (and decidees whether to renew his term). I assume it's the PM of the UK (or if I'm wrong, maybe its a local decision). The Queen, I beleive, obviously doesn't pick the person she wants. She names whoever she is advised to. So, I think both articles should state who's advice she follows. This is more of an issue for Politics of the Falkland Islands, but I thought I'ld post it here, as it applies to both articles (and this is more visible). -- Rob 22:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
In the case of Gibraltar, its a reccomendation by the foreign office so its an anonymous committee of mandarins, and is subject to approval by the Government of Gibraltar - I imagine its the same in the Falklands - although the Governor has more or a role there, here he is more or less a substitute for HM in that he does the ceremonial stuff and signs the papers he is told to.-- Gibnews 10:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It is the same in the Falklands, the FCO choose a someone then its approved(appointed) by the Queen. Jasonflk 23:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, the name "Malvinas" is only ever used in English in reference to the Falklands War and the Argentine territorial claims. I've altered the first line to reflect this. TharkunColl 19:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, being English, I think I have a better idea than you, for example. TharkunColl 19:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
No - you completely fail to understand the point here. "Malvinas" is not a neutral alternative term. It's a term imposed on the islanders by a brutal fascistic regime. It is only used in English by people referring to this event, or by people making some sort of political point. TharkunColl 19:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
You are the one who is pushing a political agenda, not I. My own position is linguistic. And you are not even a native English speaker, so why are you getting involved in this debate? TharkunColl 19:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In what way have I made any personal attack on you? TharkunColl 19:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, it means that you probably don't have a full grasp of how the word is used. TharkunColl 19:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Lets see where we can get to on this. Can people Agree/Disagree with the following?
Yes, obviously, because the correct Spanish translation is Islas Falklands. TharkunColl 19:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you disputing the accuracy of the addition I made? TharkunColl 19:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Then you are wrong. Please don't accuse me of this again, which I shall interpret as a personal insult. TharkunColl 19:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Would you put the word "Nigger" in the first line of an article about black people? TharkunColl 17:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no wish to add the word "nigger" to any page. I used it as an analogy. It's no surprise that you often encounter the word "Malvinas" in Spanish speaking areas - it is, after all, a Spanish word. As for Ireland being part of the British Isles, that's another discussion, but the fact is that the term "British Isles" predates the British state by many, many centuries. All my arguments have been linguistic, and I always try and oppose what I regard as a bastardisation of English. TharkunColl 17:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
But not in English though. It was only because of the Falklands War that most English speakers ever heard of "Malvinas". Whatever it means in Spanish is irrelevant. In English, the word refers to the Argentine military occupation of the islands. TharkunColl 19:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone object to the removal of this from the first line? Ian3055 22:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes I object, at least to its removal from the second paragraph its part of the history of the place and explains the origin of the Spanish name. The whole thing was quite reasonably explained before this edit was broke out.-- Gibnews 23:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This needs clarification for this discussion as it is a reoccuring theme here. I have placed this in a new comment in order to keep the discussion organised as its rather overflowing at present. The falkland islands have no indiginous peoples and so cannot be considered as a colony.
Colonialism (by definition) exists by taking over not just an area of land but also the native people who reside there. But the people living on the Falklands are of British descent though after 200 years I dare say they have earnt the right to be recognised as indigenous to the islands. The Falklands is really more a principality of the UK than a colony, though officially it is neither. As it is not a colony it cannot be regarded under the UN 'decolonisation' bill. These people now residing on the Falklands were its first permanent populus as the Spanish and Argentine peoples before them were whalers using the islands as a temporary stop off point. In no sense of the word are the Falkland Islands a British colony. The people who live there aren't even British - they are Falklanders (An attitude very much maintained by themselves).
Inevitably as time goes on the situation with the Falkland islands will be clarified most likely by the EU, and it will I imagine be recognised as a principality state of the UK similar to the islands of Jersey and Guernsey. (but this remains to be seen) Please avoid using this 'it's a colony' approach to the discussion as it simply doesn't apply here. It's like trying to say that Kent is a colony of london. —This unsigned comment is by 86.10.158.152 ( talk • contribs) .
The word 'Colony' has a lot of bad baggage attached to it and is not appropriate these days. The UN C24 refer currently to 'non self governing territories' rather than colonies. Similarly the FCO term these places 'Overseas Territories' which is a more neutral term than 'Colony' or 'dependency';
The traditional view of a colony was that people from one country went and oppressed the natives. This hardly applies to the Falklands or indeed Gibraltar, where any original inhabitants are long gone.
If one goes back far enough we are all from somewhere else, what is paramount is the right of the people living in territories to determine their own future, certainly which states they do not wish to form part of.
It suits those states who wish to annex such places contrary to the expressed views of their peoples to use the word 'colony' as the UN has a policy of eliminating colonies/non self governing territories
However, that desire is itself the worst form of colonisation which has no place in the modern world. Given that there seems no dispute with France over the status of the channel Islands, or obscure territories like Llivia its time others followed and got on with improving their domestic affairs. -- Gibnews 11:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
My 'agenda' is telling it like it is - the OFFICIAL term is British Overseas Territory, as used by HMG, the FCO and even Wikipedia. It is not a matter of whether you approve or consider it appropriate, thats the way it is. If you can improve on the explanation please do - Colony: from colnus (Latin), settler. -- Gibnews 18:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I've tagged this article POV while it still states that the offical Spanish name is Islas Malvinas. Please don't move the tag while discussion is ongoing. Astrotrain 19:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I didn't bother voting in that poll because it was deliberately designed to split the anti-Malvinas camp into two factions. I think, however, that my views are quite clear. TharkunColl 19:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Which just goes to show that we ought to try and reach a consensus by discussion, because all our views are different. I'm not particularly happy with having Malvinas in the first line, but if we do, we must say that the term is considered grossly offensive to some. Remember that hundreds of people died freeing the Falklands from Argentine occupation, so it is hardly surprising that some people hate that word. TharkunColl 19:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"Islas Malvinas" is never used in English, it is just "Malvinas". TharkunColl 19:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know. But foreign words are only used in context. Spanish is not a native language to the Falklands, and English speakers never call them "Islas Malvinas". So what is your justification for including them? It comes across as a political statement. TharkunColl 20:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
And now you finally admit your extreme POV. If those Spanish speakers want to look it up, they have their own wikipedia. England is quite close to France, but we don't put French words all over the articles about England. As for being nice, I'm not particularly inclined to feel nice towards a bunch of fascist thugs who feel that it's okay to bully the little people who can't fight back on their own (the Falkland Islanders). TharkunColl 20:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Your motivations are clearly political, not mine. Why should an English encyclopedia pander to a foreign language group that has no connection with the islands whatsoever? TharkunColl 20:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
No, you didn't. You didn't explain why it was so important to placate these South Americans. TharkunColl 20:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly enough you get 60,700,000 hits for 'Hitler' and exactly the same number for 'Fuck off' which suggests to me there is a limit to what Google will return. None of this has anything to do with the fact that the Official name of the territory is the Falkland Islands and trying to imply it is currently called something else is a political act. -- Gibnews 21:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Very large numbers of people use it in Spanish. This is an English encyclopedia. How many times do I have to say this? TharkunColl 20:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You win. By threatening to block me, you have censored me. Congratulations. TharkunColl 20:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that my arguments were reasoned and constructive, though I suppose they probably didn't seem like that for those who had already made up their mind. So, once agsin, I say this - why use a name that is associated with fascistic military occupation - without, at the very least, saying so? TharkunColl 20:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Gibnews 00:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been party to a similar conflict at Joan of Arc that still smolders a little even now that the article is featured. The closest thing to a fully successful solution has been to create a footnote, supply a brief summary there, and cite a respected source. Is there any neutral article or book that discusses both sides of your naming controversy? I suggest that the fairest solution in this case would be to note the unofficial status of the Spanish name within the footnote and describe its French origin there, then provide a reference. Would that satisfy all concerned? Durova 04:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, if anyone speaks Spanish, their only mention of 'Islas Falklands' is: 'Nombre de las islas: islas Malvinas utilizada por todos los países de habla hispana (aunque también se reconoce el uso de islas Falklands; el nombre oficial en inglés es Falkland Islands' Robdurbar 10:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
That's because they are a Spanish language encyclopedia, talking about a place whose native language is English. They put the Spanish name first, then the local language in brackets. But for the English encyclopedia to adopt the equivalent practice would be highly misleading, because Spanish is not a native language on the Falklands. You seem incabable of understanding this basic difference. TharkunColl 15:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
My central suggestion has been sidetracked: would the editors who dispute the matter consider footnoting as an NPOV solution? Durova 16:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just sent the following e-mail to the Falkland Islands tourist board:
Greetings. I'm one of the editors for Wikipedia, the Internet encyclopedia, and we are currently having a debate over which name(s) to include in the header describing the Falkland Islands. I would like to ask you a question: In your experience, would the name "Malvinas" be regarded as offensive by a significant proportion of Falkland Islanders? Or alternatively, would most islanders regard it as a purely neutral term? Thanks.
I shall post their reply if and when it arrives. TharkunColl 16:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
If the answer is yes, however, it would be only fair to say so on the first line as well. TharkunColl 16:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Update... I have now had two replies, one from a representative of the Falkland Islands Tourist Board, and another from a representative of the Falkland Islands Development Corporation. I have requested permission to reproduce their replies in full, and have also invited them to take part in this debate directly, if they so wish. In the meantime, I can state with assurance that the term "Islas Malvinas" is not acceptable to them. TharkunColl 19:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
So what? They don't own this article, and they have no more business determining the opening sentence of this article then the Argentine government does. If their opinion is published in reliable sources, we could quote those sources (although there are probably higher level sources to quote). Even if in an article specifically about the tourist board, we wouldn't cater to their opinion. We're neutral. Also, what you're doing is original research, and is therefore not to be used. This is an article about the Falklands, not by the Falklands, and not for the Falklands. We don't censor something because some government beaurocrat tells us its "not acceptable". -- Rob 19:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This is not original research, it's a direct quote. You appear to think that the Falkland Islanders have no rights with regard to the definition of their own ethnic identity. According to Wikipedia policy, they do. TharkunColl 00:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not for us to get involved with the online debate, but for information, I am happy for you to reproduce the following:
"As you have correctly surmised, many people here would be insulted by the term Malvinas as it implies an element of Argentine authority. Conversely, the alleged Argentine insult of "Kelper" is considered quaint but irrelevant and raises no tensions.
"Without prejudice to any political debate, there is also a linguistic consideration and most people in the Spanish speaking world (not only Argentina) generically refer to the Islands as the Malvinas. ISO-3166 has us listed as Falkland Islands (Malvinas).
"Regarding other place names, there are Argentine names for Stanley whose historic basis is debatable as Stanley was founded around 10 years after British rule commenced in 1833. Also, we no longer use Port Stanley, just Stanley."
Regards,
Tim Cotter MSc BSc
Infrastructure Development
Falkland Islands Development Corporation
Stanley
Falkland Islands
Further update... well, it has been remarkably silent round here all of a sudden. I'm going to delete the foreign names. Anybody who wants them back in, please explain why. TharkunColl 00:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
No, this is not what they said at all. In correspondence that I have not received permission to quote, they have described "Malvinas" as a term that to them implies Argentine sovereignty. As for the ISO-3166, they have been trying to change that. One of them told me that they had even lobbied the UN on this issue. But there is a wider issue at stake here, that of the right to self-identification of an ethnic group. The Falkland Islands are not a multi-lingual society - the only language native to the islands is English. Furthermore, not only is "Malvinas" foreign, it is also offensive to them. Your reasoning is flawed - all those speakers in South America are speaking Spanish, and this is an English language encyclopedia. TharkunColl 09:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The straw poll as an enquiry to judge support for foreign language names should A) be included in the first paragraph, or B) be shown in context in the second paragraph, was quickly amended to make the former option "To add foreign language names at the beginning conform Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Foreign language names are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages." This is an extract from a proposed policy paragraph which earlier states "The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parenthesis" – such names are an option, but not required. The question of what a "foreign lanquage name" means is not defined in the proposed naming conventions. The outcome of the straw poll was that a majority supported A), with around a third supporting B). As in Wikipedia:Consensus "it is clear that consensus has not been reached".
Some supporters of B) have proposed as a compromise a mention of the Malvinas in the first paragraph with a brief explanation of the context. This has been vigourously rejected by some supporters of A), who contend that Malvinas is the name used by Spanish speakers worldwide and is in widespread use on the adjacent landmass, and that to leave the name out of the first line is political. The implication of this position is that names used in adjoining countries must be listed. In support of A) the following examples were cited: 1, 2, 3, and 4. If this is correct, one would expect the first line of Germany to include Allemagne, but it only includes Bundesrepublik Deutschland, and similarly France should include Frankreich, but only includes République française. Examples 1 - 4 are interesting: the first three give multiple language names, relating to places "with a cultural mix of people and languages", the fourth gives no alternative language names. The implication is clear: the first line should include names in languages used in the territory, not names used by neighbouring countries. In accordance with this, Switzerland gives names in Latin and the various Swiss languages.
It has been asserted in various ways that it doesn't matter that the Islanders don't like one of the names, that's not our problem as an encyclopaedia. In this context Netherlands gives a useful example: the name " Holland" is often used in English, German, and other languages to mean the whole of the Netherlands, but is not included in the first line or paragraph: oddly enough, it is explained in the second paragraph. As one who flinches when "England" is used to mean UK I can appreciate the local sensitivities. Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Types of entities comments that "names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.", and Example sets out an imaginary scenario with some parallels to the Falklands, concluding that "This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised."
An alternative argument might be that contentious cases should be mentioned at the outset. The Channel Islands conflict is long in the past, but the French name is not mentioned until the third section, under Geography. The various names of Northern Ireland are a hot topic, and here a disambiguation links to one of the terms before the start of the lead section. There is no mention of alternative names in the lead section, but section 3.4 Variations in Geographic nomenclature gives details, and is adorned at the outset with a merge tag and a neutrality disputed tag.
In conclusion, there seem to have been unfortunate misunderstandings about what Wikipedia NPOV policy is in regard to foreign names, whether "foreign names" means non-English local names or names used by nearby countries, and what weight should be given to local sensitivities. In my opinion option B) fully complies with all these requirements, but personally I am willing to accept as a compromise a mention of Malvinas in the first line provided that it is made clear in that line that the name is used by nearby Spanish-speaking countries and is not acceptable to the people of the Falklands. Editors on both sides of the debate may have difficulty in finding such a compromise acceptable to reach consensus, but I note that a suitably worded phrase was recently added, though quickly reverted by a proponent of A). If such consensus cannot be reached, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) sets out a procedure which was raised as C), creating a new first section which replaces the alternative name(s) in the first section, and substitutes in the first line the following text: (known also by several alternative names Names). Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. To avoid revert wars, it is recommended to ask for help at the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. I hope that a suitable consensus can be reached without having to invoke this procedure. ... dave souza, talk 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Saw this on RfC, and here is a perspective by a non-British, non-Argentine, non-Spanish-speaking person who was an adult during the Falklands War: most people who think or wonder about the windswept little hunk of rock and grass in the South Atlantic are going to do so as a result of the war over it, one that (IIRC) cost almost 1000 lives. Without commenting on the specifics of that action, people expect that the opening line(s) of an encylopedia article will state the most salient thing about the place. In this case, it is the Falklands War, and (with respect to the sensibilities of the British), I am shocked (shocked!) that the first line does not read something like "The Falkland Islands, called Islas Malvinas by Argentina, are an archipelago in the South Atlantic Ocean, over which the United Kingdom and Argentina fought in 1983." -- Gnetwerker 23:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I protected this page to stop the edit war. Please request unprotection in no less than 3 days.
Thanks.
PS: For those that saw previous posts of mine about this issue, please note that I happened to protect while the version on the screen was the one I was opposed to. I am taking no sides here.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 00:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The ISO descriptor Falkland Islands (Malvinas) is neutral and concise. How about making that the first three words of the article and using either a footnote or an article section to discuss the name in greater depth? Durova 09:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
If we must have "Malvinas" on the first line, then we must also say - on the first line - that the Falkland Islanders object to it. To do otherwise would be negligent. TharkunColl 09:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
You state it, but you offer no reasons. My reasons are simple: not to do so would be at best negligent, at worst dishonest. To the Falkland Islanders, "Malvinas" is not a neutral term. TharkunColl 09:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Then why treat the Falkland Islanders differently to any other ethnic group? As has already been argued at length above, the convention on using foreign names is only to do so if they are native to the place in question. The fact that "Malvinas" also happens to be highly offensive merely adds an extra reason not to use it. TharkunColl 09:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I support Falkland Islands (Malvinas) as being the most NPOV title. This is the English language edition of Wikipedia; it is not the English version of Wikipedia. Some people seem to fail to understand the distinction (although I am certain that this type of systematic POV is even worse in other language editions).-- Mais oui! 10:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Durova's wording/footnote proposal is the way to go. The footnote will address any objections to people who don't like a term. I think the only objection to this approach, is that Wikipedia isn't explicity siding with the people of the Falklands over the matter (as some wish it would). -- Rob 16:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
But this is precisely the problem. It's not a question of Wikipedia "siding with the people of the Falklands", but rather siding with reality. Spanish is not a native language to the Falklands, and the people there reject the term Malvinas. The only true NPOV is to acknowledge these facts, no matter how unpalatable they may be to some. TharkunColl 16:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot what's wrong with the following hypothetical article headers?
All these words are common in English, yet for some reason we don't start articles in this way. That is not to say that these terms are not mentioned somewhere else, because they are. But not in the first line. TharkunColl 10:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The islanders are trying to change this. TharkunColl 10:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The Falkland Islands (also known as Malvinas, a term generally regarded as unacceptable by the inhabitants)... TharkunColl 10:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following, which actually encapulates what its about and is both neutral and accurate:
The Falkland Islands (Called The Malvinas by Argentina, which maintains a territorial claim) -- Gibnews 12:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not recruiting readers to an agenda, it is simply stating a fact. Surely it must be supremely relevant that the islanders reject the term Malvinas? Why are you treating the Falkland Islanders differently to any other ethnic group? TharkunColl 12:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Its dissapointing to read that 'telling it like it is' is perceived to be 'enforcing an agenda'. The ONLY reason the word malvinas has any currency is because of the Argentine claim and their promotion of an alternative name for the territitory.
If it must be included lets be HONEST - I think my form of words is a reasonable way of explaining the use of the word, and haven't seen one from anyone else which does.
-- Gibnews 19:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at this in dry editing terms. [2] An introduction must be brief and to the point. Otherwise the article will lose readers, who will surf away in full possession of whatever views they already held. Durova 15:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It would appear to me that in the recent discussion here there is nearly universal agreement (strictly speaking universal minus one). With respect to TharkunColl, if it's good enough for Britannica, the CIA Fact Book, and ISO, its good enough for Wikipedia. When the islanders succeed in changing those documents, we can follow suit. -- Gnetwerker 17:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
No, the CIA factbook is not reliable, I've had to correct several howlers in it.-- Gibnews 19:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I supprt Durova's solution. KimvdLinde 18:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the only one, as you well know. I have provided hard evidence that the Falkland Islanders find the term "Malvinas" offensive, yet you appear to believe that their views are irrelevant. This goes against all Wikipedia policy concerning the rights of self-definition for ethnic and other groups. Bear in mind that I'm not saying we shouldn't mention "Malvinas" on the first line, simply that if we do we should also point out that it is a term rejected by the actual inhabitants of the place that the article is supposed to be about. I cannot believe how people are willfully missing or ignoring this point. TharkunColl 18:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting extremely annoyed at your constant accusations of political bias on my part, because from my point of view it is you who are the one who is pushing a blatant political agenda. This must be the only article where Wikipedia editors think it's okay to use a foreign name that is found offensive to the inhabitants of a place. It's not even as if Spanish is native to the Falklands, if it were then the situation would be different. TharkunColl 18:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am sorry if it annoys you, but that does not change my opinion that wikipedia should be NPOV. Islas Malvinas is used without any conotation by milions in the world. Wikipedia is not censored for political reasons, or because people find it offensive WP:NOT. It can be explained in detail in a seperate paragraph, but you want to give it undue weight by insisting that it is explained in detail in the first that some people of the islands find it offensive that many milions of people use the name, even when they do not have the same conotation to the name that they have. KimvdLinde 18:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Millions of people speaking Spanish. This is an English encyclopedia. But why bother? You obviously don't give a shit. TharkunColl 18:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, millions speak that language. And yes, this is an English language encyclopedia, not a english owned encyclopedia. And you are right, I am pretty immune to political arguments. KimvdLinde 18:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
At what point did I ever say, or imply, that this encyclopedia was owned by the English? How does my being English in any way affect what the Falkland Islanders think about the term "Malvinas"? Your comments, however, do indeed shed some light on your political views, so to claim that you have none is completely disingenuous. By your own admittance the term "Islas Malvinas" is used in Spanish - so why should it be given so much prominence in an English language encyclopedia? Why don't we put "Inglaterra" in the article about England?
All the pro-Malvinas votes in the straw poll - most of which were cast by people who haven't even bothered to take part in this debate - are, in my opinion, based on ignorance of the situation. I am the only one here who has looked into it properly, and confirmed that "Malvinas" is an offensive term to the islanders. But in any case, I'm sure you and your cronies will win this, by sheer weight of numbers - though certainly not by any reasoned argument, since you have provided none. So congratulations! The Falkland Islanders are no strangers to being pushed around by bullies, so I hope you're proud of yourself. TharkunColl 19:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In comparison Gdansk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk has also suffered a contentious history, and all the names are listed regardless of various factions dislike for them. PhilipPage 23:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
First, TharkunColl, please endeavour to be polite. Your position is not helped by attacking others. Secondly, I am one of many, many English-speaking people who know the islands by both names, as that is how they were referred to in the U.S. media during the Falklands War. TharkunColl, I most strongly suggest that you set your efforts to a good paragraph (fully sourced and verifiable) that explains why the name is so offensive, for inclusion elsewhere in the article. Durova's suggestion certainly appears to be the best NPOV solution. -- Gnetwerker 19:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
If there is any other reason to call the territory the malvinas apart from the Argentine claim then someone could enlighten me. -- Gibnews 20:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? The CIA is an agency of the US Government and the reference to the Malvinas on their site is simply an expression of American policy of arse kissing any non communist regime in South America.-- Gibnews 21:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Gnetwerker, you have helpfully pointed out a fundamental issue in this disagreement. The term Malvinas is commonly used in the US as a neutral alternative term, which makes it hard to understand why this is an issue. Given the large Spanish speaking population of the US and its diplomatic relationships with South America this is not surprising. However, the term is not used or accepted in the islands, and Wikipedia:Naming conflict draws attention to the importance of self-identifying names. There is nothing POV about dealing with a contentious name in a separate paragraph or section: Holland gives an example. Durova's proposal of an explanatory section (rather than footnote) is fine if the mention in the first line is of "other names", but not if "Malvinas" is used without qualification. ... dave souza, talk 21:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
May I suggest a different way of looking at this? There are millions of people in the English speaking world, mainly in the United States, who live in bilingual Spanish regions. I know these islands by both names, but the subject doesn't get raised very often and the names aren't cognates. Frankly it helps to see a reminder that these two names refer to the same place. I don't mean to offend anybody and I'll call these the Falkland Islands if I ever visit, but if I send a young friend to Wikipedia's article the first thing I would want them to know is that the U.K. and Argentina fought a war 24 years ago. Durova 01:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we have lost track of the facts here. I think they are (in no order):
There are also some notable opinions:
Are any of these facts wrong, and are the opinions incorrectly stated (vs. wrong, as they are opinions)? -- Gnetwerker 02:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The Americans can't even spell colour correctly, and think that a bog is a restroom. What they think about a BRITISH territory is not important.-- Gibnews 16:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It would also be a failure of NPOV not to point out that the islanders find the term offensive - and not to bury it halfway down the article or in a footnote, but to state it when the term "Malvinas" is first mentioned. I really, truly can't understand why people are objecting to this. The article is about the Falklands and its people, so it surely must be relevant to say which terms they like, and which they don't. People are accusing me of POV, political bias, and all sorts of things, but in reality it is those who advocate suppression of relevant facts (the islanders dislike of the term) that are the biased ones, and it really makes no sense to me why this simple piece of info is causing so much trouble. TharkunColl 10:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's some quotes from websites listed at the "Official Falklands Islands Portal" [5]:
Added - I notice that the anti-Falklands votes keep piling up, from people who have made no contribution to this debate whatsoever. So be it. For those who wish to trample on the Wikipedia policy concerning the rights of self-identification for ethnic groups, all I can say is this: How would you like it if a larger, foreign neighbour wanted to occupy your country, extinguish your nationhood, and rename it as something else? TharkunColl 12:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
By 'other authorites' you mean those controlled by the US Government which supported the military junta in Argentina.-- Gibnews 16:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
What other "authorities" have is not relevant, if they are contradicted by facts. The fact is that the people of the Falklands self-identify the name of their home as "Falkland Islands". I have provided abundant, written evidence that the Falkland Islanders self-identify as such. Why is there still a dispute over this? TharkunColl 13:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I added Estados Unidos de América to the first line of the article about the USA? After all, large parts of it were once owned by a Spanish speaking power, and (unlike the Falklands) Spanish is still widely spoken there. TharkunColl 13:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I haven't actually done it, and am well aware of WP:POINT. My intention was to highlight a very important issue - namely the right of a country to choose its own name. And yet, what is seriously wrong with my suggestion? Lots and lots of people round the world call the USA Estados Unidos de América, just like lots of people called the Falkland Islands Islas Malvinas. The fact that in both cases, the people concerned are speaking Spanish seems to make no difference whatsoever in the opinion of some editors here. TharkunColl 16:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If you have a proposal about the US article you need to take it to that talk page and not this one. Of course US people call themselves Americans as if they are the only ones, clearly not true, as indeed their United States of America is also patently false. Byut at the end of the day that is what US Americans do. If we can tolerate that we should tolerate English idiosyncracies as well. Actually Malvinas is not used at all in the English language and what the Spanish is is not relevant in this case, SqueakBox 17:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC) las malvinas son argentinas
To 85.195.119.14 - the vandal who deleted this talk page and added the phrase LAS MALVINAS SON ARGENTINAS. Is it any wonder that the Falkland Islanders reject you and everything you stand for? Yours is not the politics of agreement, but of force. TharkunColl 18:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
How about the footnote proposal with the replacement of "Notes" with some word which makes the situation more noticable? It would then include the ISO designation. Such as:
Views? Ian3055 19:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Getting better I suppose. But why is the ISO designation to be preferred over the actual name used by the islanders? It is, after all, their own country. Wikipedia doesn't put " Chinese Taipei" in the first line of the article about Republic of China, so why are the Falklands any different? TharkunColl 19:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem with ISO is that the most important people in this matter do not actually get any direct input into ISO as their foreign affairs are managed by HMG.
In practice this means that its not a UK priority and given that Argentina will lobbby for the name Malvinas to re-inforce its claim and the likes of Spain and its running dogs around the world will back them even if there was a strong objection it would be over-ruled.
The same thing happens to Gibraltar where Spain spends much time and effort to frustrate us joining any international sporting bodies - thus some of our athletes, who have the ability to compete at a world level, are denied any chance.
Similarly Spain tried hard to change the rules in the ITU to exclude Gibraltar from operating satellites. We noticed the change in wording and stopped it. But .fk is small and not well organised. Its residents of have a very uphill battle. Mind you if they had got .fm from ISO instead they might have made more money from it.
However - the version I proposed was correct, the name Malvinas is ONLY in use because of the Argentine claim. -- Gibnews 21:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have suggested previously that you write an entire paragraph on the subject, and (personally), I do not think it would be amiss if this were the second para of the article, as is the case with Mount McKinley/ Denali. No one could possibly miss it. The first sentence, though is meant to be a simple description, without particularly controversial content. Unlike you, I (and most other commentators) do not find the naming conflict of such vital importance. Why you are obsessed with the first line, I do not understand. And what I really want to know is, when someone tells you to go to a Falklands website, are they really telling you to go ".fk" yourself? (joke, joke). -- Gnetwerker 23:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It would appear that no headway is being made with our few intransigent partisans. I would suggest that formal mediation is the next step. Comments? -- Gnetwerker 20:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
A Straw Poll was already organised and a compromise solution proposed by User:KimvdLinde. This has so far been ignored by a few intransigent partisans. Regards, Asterion 23:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are two problems:
Whether or not one accepts the second position, it would seem clear that the Straw Poll has not created a consensus. -- Gnetwerker 00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
"I am here to make an encyclopedia not a political manifest." Strangely enough, so am I. We need to ask ourselves why the ISO and CIA place the word "Malvinas" after the name of the islands, and it should be crystal clear to anyone who looks at this without a pre-formed political agenda that this is purely as a result of Argentine beligerance. As I pointed out above (but no one bothered responding), any tinpot dictatorship could make a frivolous claim to any other country in the world, give it a new name, and on your logic the international community, followed slavishly by Wikipedia, would be obliged to give equal preference to both names. Well, as far as I understood it, Wikipedia is in the business of reporting facts. It's not as if the Falklands have a divided society, some of whom speak Spanish and support the Argentine claim. If that were the case, then it would indeed be reasonable to give both names top billing. But the fact is that the Falklands are not so divided. All territorial claims come from outside the islands, from people who have no linguistic, cultural, or legal connection with the place whatsoever. That being said, I fully realise that I'm not likely to win this argument - even though I'm the only one here who has provided any sort of independent evidence to back up my position. There are two many here who appear to honestly believe that the fair thing to do is report the claims of outside aggressors as if they were of equal status to the people of the country itself. I shall therefore, tentatively, give my agreement to the compromise suggested by Ian3055, along with an explanatory second paragraph. For reasons I have made clear, I'm not particularly happy with it, but there it goes. TharkunColl 09:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC):
The Falkland Islands (Malvinas Objections) are an archipelago in ....
Again, and again, and again -- the "linguistic, cultural, or legal connection" that Wikipedia editors have (or don't have) with the Falklands has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, and if it did, it would be to exclude you for POV. And also, again and again -- this has (IMO) nothing to do with "outside aggressors". For an encyclopedia article, we use verifiable information from published, credible sources. None of your arguments about other countries hold water, and your continued suggestion of systematic political bias on behalf of ISO, the CIA Fact Book, Encyclopedia Britannica, and other reference works is simply absurd. And regarding "facts" -- for the (probably not) final time -- Wikipedia is in the business of verifiability, not truth.
In any case, Ian3055's suggestion is clumsy, though I would not object to a simple footnote, a la:
although my preference would be
And a final footnote: I think that those on both sides of this issue will find yourselves better served by coming swiftly to an agreement that by mediation. Mediators will look at Wikipedia policies, and I would lay even odds that the result will be something liked even less than the various proposals so far. Further, it may be instructive to study the recent case of User:Gibraltarian. This is not the direction anyone wants to go, I hope.-- Gnetwerker 10:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's another suggestion for a compromise (which at least makes clear that the ISO designation differs from the name given by the islanders themselves):
The Falkland Islands ( ISO designation Falkland Islands (Malvinas) 1) are an archipelago in .... TharkunColl 12:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The ISO designation should go in a box along with the currency and telephone code and other such data.-- Gibnews 14:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with ALSO menitoning it there, but the continues push to get it of the first line is not going to fly with me as long as I only see political reasons for that. People can keep using this as a soapbox as long as they like, but soapbox arguments are not going to convince me. KimvdLinde 15:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is that Britannica source highly revealing, it is also demonstrably wrong or out of date. The Falkland Islands have been a "British Overseas Territory" since 2002, not a colony (and most assuredly do not have "Colony" as part of their name). So much for the Britannica, eh? TharkunColl 15:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
There are still a number of unanswered questions that I invite responses to. Accusations of political bias, however, will get us nowhere, because one person's political bias is another's neutral stance. In other words, let us please confine ourselves to the facts.
Wikipedia is supposed to reflect existing authorities. These include ISO, Encyclopaedia Britannica, the CIA World Factbook, the media, what's "out there" as found by Google etc. All of these support Falkland Islands (Malvinas). The point above, why are outside bodies such as ISO, CIA, Britannica etc. regarded as neutral or indeed accurate sources, is telling. Wikipedia's view of what constitutes a reliable source is long settled - and the one thing the Islanders are not, in this case, is neutral.
If the islanders want to change this, they must go the long way round. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. As far as I can see every "compromise" suggested by those who do not want Malvinas in the lead has been tantamount to advocacy. The neutral suggestions made by Durova appear to have considerable merit, but a small number of editors appear to object to the on principle.
Many of us have sympathy with the Islanders in not wishing to support a territorial claim, albeit based on "squatters' rights", but Wikipedia is not here to assist them in promoting their campaign for change, it's here to reflect the real world, and in the real world Malvinas is a name commonly applied to these islands. Just zis Guy you know? 15:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't all the official Falklands government websites I quoted and linked to count as verifiable sources? Surely they are the most authoritative of all? TharkunColl 16:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
This continuing argument reflects the difference(s) between conflicting yet verifiable, "authoritative", sources. These seems to be broadly aligned on American English (including the ISO) and British English. In the circumstances, until such time as the verifiable "authoritative" sources resolve their differences, is there any alternative to putting both terms into the first sentence - perhaps along the lines of:
Ian Cairns 16:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly the Encyclopedia Britanica has a missleading name, its American. The Falkland Islands are British and deserve a BRITISH name. If ISO mistakely names them something else to appease a would be claimant, lets reflect that by noting it in a box along with other items of that kind. when the FCO call it the Falkland Islands (Malvinas) then I will believe thats the name.-- Gibnews 17:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me that this discussion is not going to resolve itself as win / lose or lose / win. Perhaps if we could agree to set aside the differences in the sources and go for something like a win / win ? Ian Cairns 17:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Editors on both sides of the argument expressed interest in the proposal by Gnetwerker, which I set out below incorporating my suggested modifications and a revised opening drawing on KimvdLinde's comment:
The last sentence opens with Some rather than Many, as verification would be needed of the numbers and circumstances. This could form the basis of discussion as a way forward. ... dave souza, talk 18:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't see any problems with that. It is accurate, verifiable, neutral and informative. I can't really see any reason anyone could argue with it. Lordandmaker 21:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is some data of the type called for in Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names). It is presented here without further comment. Please don't edit this section, though if you find errors, put a note below and I will correct them.
Data gathered from Google Scholar (GS), Google Books (GB), New York Times (81-06 search). New York Times (1851 - 1980 search), Guardian.co.uk (G.uk) (1998 - 2006 archive), Encylclopedia Britannica (Brit), Encarta (Enc), and Columbia Encyclopedia (Col) on word/phrase usage. In all cases, the most obvious online sources/sites (e.g. www.britannica.com) were used, and no "advanced" searches were performed. When quotes are given, they were used in the search:
Name | GS | GB | NYT 1981-2006 |
NYT 1851 - 1980 |
G.uk 1998 - 2006 |
Brit | Enc | Col |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Falklands | 6230 | 16,300 | 1722 | 225 | 1624 | 25 | 39 | 5 |
"Falkland Islands" | 6160 | 14,100 | 1773 | 1984 | 234 | 111 | 42 | 24 |
Malvinas | 4930 | 8100 | 219 | 53 | 63 | 38 | 36 | 3 |
"Islas Malvinas" | 750 | 1180 | 12 | 6 | 2 | 31 | 44 | 2 |
Opening paragraphs of other encyclopedias (mostly presented before, but I wanted everything in one place):
That's all for now. -- Gnetwerker 01:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Also note for completeness and as previously mentioned:
Just zis Guy you know? 09:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The numbers above are from whatever the online britannica.com searches by default (and any spelling errors are likely mine alone). Also, I want it understood that (despite the above?) I (personally) continue to support use of the ISO designation. -- Gnetwerker 06:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Malvinas describes a name that used, Falkland Islands is what the place is actually named spot the difference.
Being repetitive, Britanica and Encarta are American sources, Americans are notorious for their knowledge of countries outside the US. As an example, the CIA factbook on Gibraltar is reasonable because I took time to update it and they listened.
Britanica says British colony occupying a narrow peninsula of Spain's southern Mediterranean coast, just northeast of the Strait of Gibraltar. It is 3 miles (5 km) long and 3/4 mile wide and is connected to Spain by a low, sandy isthmus
NONSENSE ! The above wording is not even consistent with itself.
Encarta is even worse.
But despite that Wikipedia can get it right.-- Gibnews 09:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
One of the points of posing the above is that it is the information a mediator or arbitrators will use to determine the answer, as it follows the criteria in the relevant policies. If there can be no better compromise reached, I think we will end up with "Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)" or some other version using the Spanish name, which I think is less preferable than the ISO version. -- Gnetwerker 15:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Then leave the article titled 'The Falkland Islands' and lets add an article about alternative names in the section about the territorial claim and put this to bed.-- Gibnews 17:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Some have argued that the British government is not a neutral source, and likewise the Argentine. So let's ignore de jure (since some dispute it), and concentrate on de facto. Which name is used by the people who run the islands? Which name is accepted by the people of the islands? Please remember that this is not an article about international territorial claims, but rather about the Falklands and its people. As for all those so-called neutral sources souch as ISO, CIA, Britannica - time and again they have been proved to be inaccurate and/or woefully out ot date. TharkunColl
Why on earth would you want to cross out the two national governments and rely instead on the one group whose agenda is strongest and least neutral? This, of course, is the very heart of the matter. Whatever we may think of the fact that the Falkland Islands exist in their current form, the fact is that they do. For the sake of neutrality, we must use this as the basis of our description of the place. By all means mention the territorial claim further down. Those who disagree that this stance really is the truly neutral one should provide examples of Wikipedia articles where externally conferred names are favoured over those adopted by the place itself. I have asked for this many times now, but nobody has actually done so, which is surely telling. TharkunColl 19:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
TharkunColl and dave souza, the arguments you make are correct, but red herrings. As KimvdLinde points out, we are not proposing to call the islands something other than their given, local name "(The) Falkland Islands". This entire debate is about the inclusion of a secondary name in the article introduction. In my opinion, if your position was toward clarity and not a political one, you would appeciate this. Your concern, manifestly, is not to have the islands called "Falkland Islands" (which is uncontested), but to exclude from the introduction alternative names validated by various reference works, world standards, and third parties, or to insert such obtrusive objections to the secondary name as to stigmatize it. That, in my view, is the root of the accusations of POV -- your position that another named should be summarily excluded. -- Gnetwerker 21:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The slightly modified version of Gnetwerker's proposal above attracted a lot of support, and one objection which I've attempted to address with a few revisions as shown below. For most editors this generally seems to be a tolerable proposal.
Any constructive suggestions will be welcome, and I hope that it will be possible for the protection to be lifted and this proposal added for the first two paragraphs to allow normal editing to resume. ... dave souza, talk 21:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a different suggestion:
Another important Wikipedia policy reference here is WP:LEAD. The most important sentence in it, IMHO, is: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article.". -- Gnetwerker 00:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Crazy debate. Territorial claims are completely irrelevant. Look at all the territorial claims, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia etc., have all made in the 20th century alone. And enshrined in the Constitution of the Irish Republic is a territorial claim to part of the United Kingdom. So, like the Argentinian "claim" its all meaningless. the important thing here is that the islands are under British sovereignty and that this, the English-language version of the Wikipedia, should present the name of the islands in English. 81.131.109.124 13:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Although some disagree with the foreign names in the title lead (including me), I think we all now agree that the majority consensus is to include The Falkland Islands (also known as the Malvinas) in the title. So why is the debate still continuing?
I think we should unprotect the article, and add this new title line in. And then we can look to put a naming section in. The discussion here has gone on long enough; and is now becoming stale and going off topic. Astrotrain 16:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Do it and lets get on with life.-- Gibnews 17:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of protection is to prevent an edit war. If everybody can agree to maintain civil dialogue here and not make changes without broad agreement, there is no particular reason it should not be unprotected. I see no reason why we should not assume good faith on the part of all concerned and no reason why TharkunColl, Gibnews or anyone else should not continue trying to persuade folks on this Talk page, just as long as they are not going to start another revert war. Debate makes good article, as a rule. If everybody is prepared to send Mr Ego on a long Wikibreak I will happily unprotect it. Just zis Guy you know? 18:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
No objection, but can someone state what they think the first two-para consensus is. I see "Falkland Islands (also known as), but what about the war reference in 1st para, naming conflict in 2nd? Is that consensus? If we don't know, it will be a quick trip back to protection, and/or a trip to User:Gibraltarian-land for someone. -- Gnetwerker 20:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Generally this debate has been polite and people have avoided personal attacks. As a Gibraltarian I am offended by the above reference. This is NOT the place to discuss that unfortunate matter, apart from noting that ONE Gibraltar user was blocked for bad behaviour provoked by a number of equally bad Spanish users with an agenda. The Gibraltar page today shows mindless vandalism by Spaniards is again rife, albeit swiftly contained.
I do not intend to make the mistakes of others, please do not dump in my direction.-- Gibnews 09:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This splits the first sentence, briefly mentioning growth and tourism to give an indication of the whole article. Otherwise as the Mark II version. .. dave souza, talk 22:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I can live with the current wording, but its self evident that a Spanish phrase is used in spanish speaking countries.-- Gibnews 09:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The discussions are much more civil now. I hope nobody starts the edit war again. Great job in reaching a consensus to all.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 23:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have copied dave souza's paragraph from above, with a few small changes: I wikified South Atlantic Ocean (changing it to its canonical WP name), and added the sentence about the capital city, which had been orphaned by the changes. I left the sovereignty para more-or-less as-is, expect a little wordsmithing to reduce (but not eliminate) the redundancy of mentioning Islas Malvinas both there and in the opening para. This probably needs more work. I also wikilinked "ISO" to ISO 3166 and may have wordsmithed a little here and there. Let's see how long this lasts! (And in the spirit of a "clean slate", if this compromise holds for a few days or a week, I propose archiving this whole discussion and starting fresh here, unless there are major objections. This Talk page is still well over 150kb.) -- Gnetwerker 23:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
P.s. - I specifially did not implement KimvdLinde's suggestion, and here is my reasoning: the current wording "a number of" conveniantly ducks the issue of who does and who doesn't use Islas Malvinas versus Islas Falklands versus something else. Saying "most" requires (IMO) some actual count or substantiation. I almost changed it to simply "some other Spanish-speaking countries", but this would have been simply weaker, not more NPOV, so I didn't. -- Gnetwerker 23:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
P.p.s - I also almost inserted "self-governing" before "English speaking", but did not, simply because it hasn't been thoroughly discussed. I personally support doing so, per Britannica and Encarta (see above). -- Gnetwerker 23:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It is self governing, so I can think there is no objection against that. Ican live with the "the most common usage in Spanish is ...". I do not think that if Islas Falklands is only mentioned 848 times, that there is any Spanish speaking country (including Chili) that does it consistently. So, most is in hat context even conservative.
KimvdLinde
00:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Almost despite myself, I actually find this current version not too bad. Let's hope somebody doesn't revert it in the meantime... TharkunColl 00:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Added... I think I might replace the phrase "a growing tourism" with "a growth in tourism" - simply for linguistic reasons. TharkunColl 00:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, misread it. I've added a single letter (so as to conform to proper English usage). TharkunColl 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Astrotrain made "small amendments", which I post below for discussion:
In my opinion pointing out the disputed name in the first paragraph is essential, and mention of the war and economy in the intro is important: exact form up for discussion. ... dave souza, talk 20:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
On the one hand, getting back to a "normal" editing regime is clearly desirable. On the other hand, we want to make sure that the current state of consensus does not dramatically fail. Personally, I never liked the economy sentence either, as it was unsourced (as noted) and the result of a certain amount of political correctness. But let us try to be sensitive, especially those editors who took strong positions during the previous debate. -- Gnetwerker 00:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought it useful to mention that the reason for the so called 'Falklands war' was the invasion. Although I don't intend to persist with it, its cause and effect. It was not war for regime change. There was no POV or value judgement involved, it was strictly factual. Why is telling the truth 'incendiary' ?
In 1982 The islands were in invaded by Argentina. The United Kingdom sent a taskforce and recaptured the territory in the Falklands War.
-- Gibnews 19:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The consensus we achieved was in relation to the use of foreign names to describe the territory, the same foreign names that were previously in the second paragraph on the main article and which some, like Just zis Guy you know? insisted should go in a more prominent position.
The invasion and conflict in the Falklands is very important as without it I doubt most of us would even know the place ever existed. The conflict or 'war' occured because of the invasion and the term is pretty neutral and factual, and the wording used makes no value judgement on the merits of either the invasion or the recapture, again a neutral term which describes what happened.
As it is the single most important event in the territory it deserves prominence and should not offend anyones sensibilities excepting anyone who wants to gloss over history.
'liberation' is term that implies other things 'recapure' describes what happens when a subsequent invasion succeeds. -- Gibnews 13:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The problems with your edit are:
If someone were to write that, I would certainly expect that you would hit the roof (with good reason). The details of occupation, capture, etc are well-covered in the accompanying articles. It is not appropriate to recapitulate them in the intro. An alternate version would be fine, but it it needs to avoid "war words" like "invasion" that will just set off a series of reverts. -- Gnetwerker 21:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
the islands were the site of the Falklands War between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Sounds to me like the location was arbitraly picked for a war game, and does not explain why the conflict occured in a concise manner.
However, if someone likes my wording, please change it that way, I don't want to engage in an edit war either.-- Gibnews 13:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's me done. The following links might be useful to someone:
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of the naming debate from March 11 (the Straw Poll), through the unprotection, up to (roughly) March 30. Please do not further modify this page.
(No reference to the current UK foreign secretary)
OK Guys it seems that whatever arguments are invoked nobody is being convinced, lets see how the numbers stack up for the active participants simply add your signature to the appropriate list:
Note: one line will do, we do not need a essay here.
A) To add foreign language names at the beginning conform Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Foreign language names are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages. Note: this is a partial quote of a proposed policy: see C) below.
B) To show them in context in the second paragraph as previous.
C) To show foreign language names in a names section in conformity with proposed policy Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a names section immediately following the lead. In this case, the redundant list of the names in the article's first line should be replaced with the following text: (known also by several alternative names Names). Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line.
Add your signatures between the lines and lets see how the numbers stack up. Keep it real. -- Gibnews 17:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the "policy" is a proposal, developed in reference to Eastern Europe, and while the talk page proposes adding it to to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)#General issues, this had not yet been done. The proposed policy paragraph includes an option for a naming section or paragraph, and I propose that this option be taken. .. dave souza, talk 08:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Note that this is labeled as a straw poll just to get a feel on what people think in order to try and resolve an endless argument rather than any attempt to 'make policy' Also at last, a good use for lines !
Thanks to Darklegions changing it to a more standard layout as I haven't a clue how its been done before and to dave souza for inclusion alternative C which I would support although B is IMNSHO quite satifactory.
Lets run it for 10 days and see.-- Gibnews 09:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Everyone, please remember that polls are evil and Wikipedia is not a democracy. As this is a straw poll, the guidance that "If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place" presumably applies. Jon, it's naughty to change the title to suit your position: gonnae no dae that? I've changed it back to foreign, which in this context means not English language. If you want to claim that Malvinas is English language as well as historical, that deserves a new section of discussion. Let's hope that a consensus can be found, using the proposed policy which despite my initial concerns seems well considered to deal with such disputes. .. dave souza, talk 18:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As previously stated, I find no support in the proposed placaname policy for including the French name, whose association with the islands (in any language other than French) is probably limited to a discussion of early history and etymology. The Spanish name on the other hand, is commonly mentioned as an alternative, due to recent current events and the continued dispute, even though its usage is neither official nor local/indigenous. // Big Adamsky 21:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC) PS: Considering how many obscure alternative exonyms there are for Germany and China, imagine how it would look if those articles were to be filled up with foreign or historical names! =P
It should be noted that the Spanish translation of the Falkland Islands is Islas Falklands. It has already been noted that this is used in the Spanish speaking Chile. Argentina names many regions in the South Atlantic with different names to reflect their territorial claims. For example King George Island is called Isla Veinticinco de Mayo in Argentina, yet the Spanish wiki calls it Isla Rey Jorge and not the unoffical Argentine name.
Most offical Spanish language situations will use Islas Falklands eg the European Union Astrotrain 20:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The foreign name is used to assert a claim to the territory against the wishes of the people who live there. In the same way that we all have the right to call ourselves whatever we like and pronounce our names the way we chose, so have people in a territory and trying to call a spade a pointed shovel to make a political point has no place in an information resource apart from as an aside that it happens.-- Gibnews 10:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet more claims:
Last week, Chávez specifically demanded to Tony Blair that Great Britain return the Maldives to Argentina, eventually calling Blair who refused, an “imperialist pawn” see this Do they teach geography in the US? -- Gibnews 23:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Your statement only confirms your lack of community service, Venezuela is not Argentina; if you're trying to deliberately change the vote of American wikipedians you're wasting your time. -- Darklegions 02:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Its not clear who the above is directed at; if its me then I suggest you read more carefully and look at a map. Wonder what the Spanish name for the Netherland Antilles is.-- Gibnews 09:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is not just a historical name as your preferred translation gets 848 hits with the unofficial name gets over 8,000,000 hits. So much for the offical translation. So start with the fact that Islas Malvinas is a commonly used name, or would you like to deny that? As it is commonly used, it should be mentioned as a commonly used name. KimvdLinde 03:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
In this article, and Politics of the Falkland Islands it says the governor represents the Queen, which is technically true. But, could we put in the article the person who actually picks the governor (and decidees whether to renew his term). I assume it's the PM of the UK (or if I'm wrong, maybe its a local decision). The Queen, I beleive, obviously doesn't pick the person she wants. She names whoever she is advised to. So, I think both articles should state who's advice she follows. This is more of an issue for Politics of the Falkland Islands, but I thought I'ld post it here, as it applies to both articles (and this is more visible). -- Rob 22:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
In the case of Gibraltar, its a reccomendation by the foreign office so its an anonymous committee of mandarins, and is subject to approval by the Government of Gibraltar - I imagine its the same in the Falklands - although the Governor has more or a role there, here he is more or less a substitute for HM in that he does the ceremonial stuff and signs the papers he is told to.-- Gibnews 10:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It is the same in the Falklands, the FCO choose a someone then its approved(appointed) by the Queen. Jasonflk 23:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, the name "Malvinas" is only ever used in English in reference to the Falklands War and the Argentine territorial claims. I've altered the first line to reflect this. TharkunColl 19:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, being English, I think I have a better idea than you, for example. TharkunColl 19:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
No - you completely fail to understand the point here. "Malvinas" is not a neutral alternative term. It's a term imposed on the islanders by a brutal fascistic regime. It is only used in English by people referring to this event, or by people making some sort of political point. TharkunColl 19:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
You are the one who is pushing a political agenda, not I. My own position is linguistic. And you are not even a native English speaker, so why are you getting involved in this debate? TharkunColl 19:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In what way have I made any personal attack on you? TharkunColl 19:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, it means that you probably don't have a full grasp of how the word is used. TharkunColl 19:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Lets see where we can get to on this. Can people Agree/Disagree with the following?
Yes, obviously, because the correct Spanish translation is Islas Falklands. TharkunColl 19:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you disputing the accuracy of the addition I made? TharkunColl 19:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Then you are wrong. Please don't accuse me of this again, which I shall interpret as a personal insult. TharkunColl 19:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Would you put the word "Nigger" in the first line of an article about black people? TharkunColl 17:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no wish to add the word "nigger" to any page. I used it as an analogy. It's no surprise that you often encounter the word "Malvinas" in Spanish speaking areas - it is, after all, a Spanish word. As for Ireland being part of the British Isles, that's another discussion, but the fact is that the term "British Isles" predates the British state by many, many centuries. All my arguments have been linguistic, and I always try and oppose what I regard as a bastardisation of English. TharkunColl 17:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
But not in English though. It was only because of the Falklands War that most English speakers ever heard of "Malvinas". Whatever it means in Spanish is irrelevant. In English, the word refers to the Argentine military occupation of the islands. TharkunColl 19:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone object to the removal of this from the first line? Ian3055 22:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes I object, at least to its removal from the second paragraph its part of the history of the place and explains the origin of the Spanish name. The whole thing was quite reasonably explained before this edit was broke out.-- Gibnews 23:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This needs clarification for this discussion as it is a reoccuring theme here. I have placed this in a new comment in order to keep the discussion organised as its rather overflowing at present. The falkland islands have no indiginous peoples and so cannot be considered as a colony.
Colonialism (by definition) exists by taking over not just an area of land but also the native people who reside there. But the people living on the Falklands are of British descent though after 200 years I dare say they have earnt the right to be recognised as indigenous to the islands. The Falklands is really more a principality of the UK than a colony, though officially it is neither. As it is not a colony it cannot be regarded under the UN 'decolonisation' bill. These people now residing on the Falklands were its first permanent populus as the Spanish and Argentine peoples before them were whalers using the islands as a temporary stop off point. In no sense of the word are the Falkland Islands a British colony. The people who live there aren't even British - they are Falklanders (An attitude very much maintained by themselves).
Inevitably as time goes on the situation with the Falkland islands will be clarified most likely by the EU, and it will I imagine be recognised as a principality state of the UK similar to the islands of Jersey and Guernsey. (but this remains to be seen) Please avoid using this 'it's a colony' approach to the discussion as it simply doesn't apply here. It's like trying to say that Kent is a colony of london. —This unsigned comment is by 86.10.158.152 ( talk • contribs) .
The word 'Colony' has a lot of bad baggage attached to it and is not appropriate these days. The UN C24 refer currently to 'non self governing territories' rather than colonies. Similarly the FCO term these places 'Overseas Territories' which is a more neutral term than 'Colony' or 'dependency';
The traditional view of a colony was that people from one country went and oppressed the natives. This hardly applies to the Falklands or indeed Gibraltar, where any original inhabitants are long gone.
If one goes back far enough we are all from somewhere else, what is paramount is the right of the people living in territories to determine their own future, certainly which states they do not wish to form part of.
It suits those states who wish to annex such places contrary to the expressed views of their peoples to use the word 'colony' as the UN has a policy of eliminating colonies/non self governing territories
However, that desire is itself the worst form of colonisation which has no place in the modern world. Given that there seems no dispute with France over the status of the channel Islands, or obscure territories like Llivia its time others followed and got on with improving their domestic affairs. -- Gibnews 11:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
My 'agenda' is telling it like it is - the OFFICIAL term is British Overseas Territory, as used by HMG, the FCO and even Wikipedia. It is not a matter of whether you approve or consider it appropriate, thats the way it is. If you can improve on the explanation please do - Colony: from colnus (Latin), settler. -- Gibnews 18:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I've tagged this article POV while it still states that the offical Spanish name is Islas Malvinas. Please don't move the tag while discussion is ongoing. Astrotrain 19:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I didn't bother voting in that poll because it was deliberately designed to split the anti-Malvinas camp into two factions. I think, however, that my views are quite clear. TharkunColl 19:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Which just goes to show that we ought to try and reach a consensus by discussion, because all our views are different. I'm not particularly happy with having Malvinas in the first line, but if we do, we must say that the term is considered grossly offensive to some. Remember that hundreds of people died freeing the Falklands from Argentine occupation, so it is hardly surprising that some people hate that word. TharkunColl 19:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"Islas Malvinas" is never used in English, it is just "Malvinas". TharkunColl 19:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know. But foreign words are only used in context. Spanish is not a native language to the Falklands, and English speakers never call them "Islas Malvinas". So what is your justification for including them? It comes across as a political statement. TharkunColl 20:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
And now you finally admit your extreme POV. If those Spanish speakers want to look it up, they have their own wikipedia. England is quite close to France, but we don't put French words all over the articles about England. As for being nice, I'm not particularly inclined to feel nice towards a bunch of fascist thugs who feel that it's okay to bully the little people who can't fight back on their own (the Falkland Islanders). TharkunColl 20:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Your motivations are clearly political, not mine. Why should an English encyclopedia pander to a foreign language group that has no connection with the islands whatsoever? TharkunColl 20:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
No, you didn't. You didn't explain why it was so important to placate these South Americans. TharkunColl 20:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly enough you get 60,700,000 hits for 'Hitler' and exactly the same number for 'Fuck off' which suggests to me there is a limit to what Google will return. None of this has anything to do with the fact that the Official name of the territory is the Falkland Islands and trying to imply it is currently called something else is a political act. -- Gibnews 21:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Very large numbers of people use it in Spanish. This is an English encyclopedia. How many times do I have to say this? TharkunColl 20:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You win. By threatening to block me, you have censored me. Congratulations. TharkunColl 20:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that my arguments were reasoned and constructive, though I suppose they probably didn't seem like that for those who had already made up their mind. So, once agsin, I say this - why use a name that is associated with fascistic military occupation - without, at the very least, saying so? TharkunColl 20:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Gibnews 00:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been party to a similar conflict at Joan of Arc that still smolders a little even now that the article is featured. The closest thing to a fully successful solution has been to create a footnote, supply a brief summary there, and cite a respected source. Is there any neutral article or book that discusses both sides of your naming controversy? I suggest that the fairest solution in this case would be to note the unofficial status of the Spanish name within the footnote and describe its French origin there, then provide a reference. Would that satisfy all concerned? Durova 04:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, if anyone speaks Spanish, their only mention of 'Islas Falklands' is: 'Nombre de las islas: islas Malvinas utilizada por todos los países de habla hispana (aunque también se reconoce el uso de islas Falklands; el nombre oficial en inglés es Falkland Islands' Robdurbar 10:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
That's because they are a Spanish language encyclopedia, talking about a place whose native language is English. They put the Spanish name first, then the local language in brackets. But for the English encyclopedia to adopt the equivalent practice would be highly misleading, because Spanish is not a native language on the Falklands. You seem incabable of understanding this basic difference. TharkunColl 15:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
My central suggestion has been sidetracked: would the editors who dispute the matter consider footnoting as an NPOV solution? Durova 16:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just sent the following e-mail to the Falkland Islands tourist board:
Greetings. I'm one of the editors for Wikipedia, the Internet encyclopedia, and we are currently having a debate over which name(s) to include in the header describing the Falkland Islands. I would like to ask you a question: In your experience, would the name "Malvinas" be regarded as offensive by a significant proportion of Falkland Islanders? Or alternatively, would most islanders regard it as a purely neutral term? Thanks.
I shall post their reply if and when it arrives. TharkunColl 16:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
If the answer is yes, however, it would be only fair to say so on the first line as well. TharkunColl 16:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Update... I have now had two replies, one from a representative of the Falkland Islands Tourist Board, and another from a representative of the Falkland Islands Development Corporation. I have requested permission to reproduce their replies in full, and have also invited them to take part in this debate directly, if they so wish. In the meantime, I can state with assurance that the term "Islas Malvinas" is not acceptable to them. TharkunColl 19:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
So what? They don't own this article, and they have no more business determining the opening sentence of this article then the Argentine government does. If their opinion is published in reliable sources, we could quote those sources (although there are probably higher level sources to quote). Even if in an article specifically about the tourist board, we wouldn't cater to their opinion. We're neutral. Also, what you're doing is original research, and is therefore not to be used. This is an article about the Falklands, not by the Falklands, and not for the Falklands. We don't censor something because some government beaurocrat tells us its "not acceptable". -- Rob 19:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This is not original research, it's a direct quote. You appear to think that the Falkland Islanders have no rights with regard to the definition of their own ethnic identity. According to Wikipedia policy, they do. TharkunColl 00:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not for us to get involved with the online debate, but for information, I am happy for you to reproduce the following:
"As you have correctly surmised, many people here would be insulted by the term Malvinas as it implies an element of Argentine authority. Conversely, the alleged Argentine insult of "Kelper" is considered quaint but irrelevant and raises no tensions.
"Without prejudice to any political debate, there is also a linguistic consideration and most people in the Spanish speaking world (not only Argentina) generically refer to the Islands as the Malvinas. ISO-3166 has us listed as Falkland Islands (Malvinas).
"Regarding other place names, there are Argentine names for Stanley whose historic basis is debatable as Stanley was founded around 10 years after British rule commenced in 1833. Also, we no longer use Port Stanley, just Stanley."
Regards,
Tim Cotter MSc BSc
Infrastructure Development
Falkland Islands Development Corporation
Stanley
Falkland Islands
Further update... well, it has been remarkably silent round here all of a sudden. I'm going to delete the foreign names. Anybody who wants them back in, please explain why. TharkunColl 00:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
No, this is not what they said at all. In correspondence that I have not received permission to quote, they have described "Malvinas" as a term that to them implies Argentine sovereignty. As for the ISO-3166, they have been trying to change that. One of them told me that they had even lobbied the UN on this issue. But there is a wider issue at stake here, that of the right to self-identification of an ethnic group. The Falkland Islands are not a multi-lingual society - the only language native to the islands is English. Furthermore, not only is "Malvinas" foreign, it is also offensive to them. Your reasoning is flawed - all those speakers in South America are speaking Spanish, and this is an English language encyclopedia. TharkunColl 09:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The straw poll as an enquiry to judge support for foreign language names should A) be included in the first paragraph, or B) be shown in context in the second paragraph, was quickly amended to make the former option "To add foreign language names at the beginning conform Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names): Foreign language names are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages." This is an extract from a proposed policy paragraph which earlier states "The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parenthesis" – such names are an option, but not required. The question of what a "foreign lanquage name" means is not defined in the proposed naming conventions. The outcome of the straw poll was that a majority supported A), with around a third supporting B). As in Wikipedia:Consensus "it is clear that consensus has not been reached".
Some supporters of B) have proposed as a compromise a mention of the Malvinas in the first paragraph with a brief explanation of the context. This has been vigourously rejected by some supporters of A), who contend that Malvinas is the name used by Spanish speakers worldwide and is in widespread use on the adjacent landmass, and that to leave the name out of the first line is political. The implication of this position is that names used in adjoining countries must be listed. In support of A) the following examples were cited: 1, 2, 3, and 4. If this is correct, one would expect the first line of Germany to include Allemagne, but it only includes Bundesrepublik Deutschland, and similarly France should include Frankreich, but only includes République française. Examples 1 - 4 are interesting: the first three give multiple language names, relating to places "with a cultural mix of people and languages", the fourth gives no alternative language names. The implication is clear: the first line should include names in languages used in the territory, not names used by neighbouring countries. In accordance with this, Switzerland gives names in Latin and the various Swiss languages.
It has been asserted in various ways that it doesn't matter that the Islanders don't like one of the names, that's not our problem as an encyclopaedia. In this context Netherlands gives a useful example: the name " Holland" is often used in English, German, and other languages to mean the whole of the Netherlands, but is not included in the first line or paragraph: oddly enough, it is explained in the second paragraph. As one who flinches when "England" is used to mean UK I can appreciate the local sensitivities. Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Types of entities comments that "names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.", and Example sets out an imaginary scenario with some parallels to the Falklands, concluding that "This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised."
An alternative argument might be that contentious cases should be mentioned at the outset. The Channel Islands conflict is long in the past, but the French name is not mentioned until the third section, under Geography. The various names of Northern Ireland are a hot topic, and here a disambiguation links to one of the terms before the start of the lead section. There is no mention of alternative names in the lead section, but section 3.4 Variations in Geographic nomenclature gives details, and is adorned at the outset with a merge tag and a neutrality disputed tag.
In conclusion, there seem to have been unfortunate misunderstandings about what Wikipedia NPOV policy is in regard to foreign names, whether "foreign names" means non-English local names or names used by nearby countries, and what weight should be given to local sensitivities. In my opinion option B) fully complies with all these requirements, but personally I am willing to accept as a compromise a mention of Malvinas in the first line provided that it is made clear in that line that the name is used by nearby Spanish-speaking countries and is not acceptable to the people of the Falklands. Editors on both sides of the debate may have difficulty in finding such a compromise acceptable to reach consensus, but I note that a suitably worded phrase was recently added, though quickly reverted by a proponent of A). If such consensus cannot be reached, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) sets out a procedure which was raised as C), creating a new first section which replaces the alternative name(s) in the first section, and substitutes in the first line the following text: (known also by several alternative names Names). Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. To avoid revert wars, it is recommended to ask for help at the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. I hope that a suitable consensus can be reached without having to invoke this procedure. ... dave souza, talk 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Saw this on RfC, and here is a perspective by a non-British, non-Argentine, non-Spanish-speaking person who was an adult during the Falklands War: most people who think or wonder about the windswept little hunk of rock and grass in the South Atlantic are going to do so as a result of the war over it, one that (IIRC) cost almost 1000 lives. Without commenting on the specifics of that action, people expect that the opening line(s) of an encylopedia article will state the most salient thing about the place. In this case, it is the Falklands War, and (with respect to the sensibilities of the British), I am shocked (shocked!) that the first line does not read something like "The Falkland Islands, called Islas Malvinas by Argentina, are an archipelago in the South Atlantic Ocean, over which the United Kingdom and Argentina fought in 1983." -- Gnetwerker 23:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I protected this page to stop the edit war. Please request unprotection in no less than 3 days.
Thanks.
PS: For those that saw previous posts of mine about this issue, please note that I happened to protect while the version on the screen was the one I was opposed to. I am taking no sides here.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 00:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The ISO descriptor Falkland Islands (Malvinas) is neutral and concise. How about making that the first three words of the article and using either a footnote or an article section to discuss the name in greater depth? Durova 09:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
If we must have "Malvinas" on the first line, then we must also say - on the first line - that the Falkland Islanders object to it. To do otherwise would be negligent. TharkunColl 09:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
You state it, but you offer no reasons. My reasons are simple: not to do so would be at best negligent, at worst dishonest. To the Falkland Islanders, "Malvinas" is not a neutral term. TharkunColl 09:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Then why treat the Falkland Islanders differently to any other ethnic group? As has already been argued at length above, the convention on using foreign names is only to do so if they are native to the place in question. The fact that "Malvinas" also happens to be highly offensive merely adds an extra reason not to use it. TharkunColl 09:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I support Falkland Islands (Malvinas) as being the most NPOV title. This is the English language edition of Wikipedia; it is not the English version of Wikipedia. Some people seem to fail to understand the distinction (although I am certain that this type of systematic POV is even worse in other language editions).-- Mais oui! 10:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Durova's wording/footnote proposal is the way to go. The footnote will address any objections to people who don't like a term. I think the only objection to this approach, is that Wikipedia isn't explicity siding with the people of the Falklands over the matter (as some wish it would). -- Rob 16:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
But this is precisely the problem. It's not a question of Wikipedia "siding with the people of the Falklands", but rather siding with reality. Spanish is not a native language to the Falklands, and the people there reject the term Malvinas. The only true NPOV is to acknowledge these facts, no matter how unpalatable they may be to some. TharkunColl 16:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone spot what's wrong with the following hypothetical article headers?
All these words are common in English, yet for some reason we don't start articles in this way. That is not to say that these terms are not mentioned somewhere else, because they are. But not in the first line. TharkunColl 10:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The islanders are trying to change this. TharkunColl 10:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The Falkland Islands (also known as Malvinas, a term generally regarded as unacceptable by the inhabitants)... TharkunColl 10:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following, which actually encapulates what its about and is both neutral and accurate:
The Falkland Islands (Called The Malvinas by Argentina, which maintains a territorial claim) -- Gibnews 12:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not recruiting readers to an agenda, it is simply stating a fact. Surely it must be supremely relevant that the islanders reject the term Malvinas? Why are you treating the Falkland Islanders differently to any other ethnic group? TharkunColl 12:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Its dissapointing to read that 'telling it like it is' is perceived to be 'enforcing an agenda'. The ONLY reason the word malvinas has any currency is because of the Argentine claim and their promotion of an alternative name for the territitory.
If it must be included lets be HONEST - I think my form of words is a reasonable way of explaining the use of the word, and haven't seen one from anyone else which does.
-- Gibnews 19:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at this in dry editing terms. [2] An introduction must be brief and to the point. Otherwise the article will lose readers, who will surf away in full possession of whatever views they already held. Durova 15:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It would appear to me that in the recent discussion here there is nearly universal agreement (strictly speaking universal minus one). With respect to TharkunColl, if it's good enough for Britannica, the CIA Fact Book, and ISO, its good enough for Wikipedia. When the islanders succeed in changing those documents, we can follow suit. -- Gnetwerker 17:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
No, the CIA factbook is not reliable, I've had to correct several howlers in it.-- Gibnews 19:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I supprt Durova's solution. KimvdLinde 18:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the only one, as you well know. I have provided hard evidence that the Falkland Islanders find the term "Malvinas" offensive, yet you appear to believe that their views are irrelevant. This goes against all Wikipedia policy concerning the rights of self-definition for ethnic and other groups. Bear in mind that I'm not saying we shouldn't mention "Malvinas" on the first line, simply that if we do we should also point out that it is a term rejected by the actual inhabitants of the place that the article is supposed to be about. I cannot believe how people are willfully missing or ignoring this point. TharkunColl 18:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting extremely annoyed at your constant accusations of political bias on my part, because from my point of view it is you who are the one who is pushing a blatant political agenda. This must be the only article where Wikipedia editors think it's okay to use a foreign name that is found offensive to the inhabitants of a place. It's not even as if Spanish is native to the Falklands, if it were then the situation would be different. TharkunColl 18:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am sorry if it annoys you, but that does not change my opinion that wikipedia should be NPOV. Islas Malvinas is used without any conotation by milions in the world. Wikipedia is not censored for political reasons, or because people find it offensive WP:NOT. It can be explained in detail in a seperate paragraph, but you want to give it undue weight by insisting that it is explained in detail in the first that some people of the islands find it offensive that many milions of people use the name, even when they do not have the same conotation to the name that they have. KimvdLinde 18:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Millions of people speaking Spanish. This is an English encyclopedia. But why bother? You obviously don't give a shit. TharkunColl 18:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, millions speak that language. And yes, this is an English language encyclopedia, not a english owned encyclopedia. And you are right, I am pretty immune to political arguments. KimvdLinde 18:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
At what point did I ever say, or imply, that this encyclopedia was owned by the English? How does my being English in any way affect what the Falkland Islanders think about the term "Malvinas"? Your comments, however, do indeed shed some light on your political views, so to claim that you have none is completely disingenuous. By your own admittance the term "Islas Malvinas" is used in Spanish - so why should it be given so much prominence in an English language encyclopedia? Why don't we put "Inglaterra" in the article about England?
All the pro-Malvinas votes in the straw poll - most of which were cast by people who haven't even bothered to take part in this debate - are, in my opinion, based on ignorance of the situation. I am the only one here who has looked into it properly, and confirmed that "Malvinas" is an offensive term to the islanders. But in any case, I'm sure you and your cronies will win this, by sheer weight of numbers - though certainly not by any reasoned argument, since you have provided none. So congratulations! The Falkland Islanders are no strangers to being pushed around by bullies, so I hope you're proud of yourself. TharkunColl 19:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In comparison Gdansk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk has also suffered a contentious history, and all the names are listed regardless of various factions dislike for them. PhilipPage 23:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
First, TharkunColl, please endeavour to be polite. Your position is not helped by attacking others. Secondly, I am one of many, many English-speaking people who know the islands by both names, as that is how they were referred to in the U.S. media during the Falklands War. TharkunColl, I most strongly suggest that you set your efforts to a good paragraph (fully sourced and verifiable) that explains why the name is so offensive, for inclusion elsewhere in the article. Durova's suggestion certainly appears to be the best NPOV solution. -- Gnetwerker 19:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
If there is any other reason to call the territory the malvinas apart from the Argentine claim then someone could enlighten me. -- Gibnews 20:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? The CIA is an agency of the US Government and the reference to the Malvinas on their site is simply an expression of American policy of arse kissing any non communist regime in South America.-- Gibnews 21:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Gnetwerker, you have helpfully pointed out a fundamental issue in this disagreement. The term Malvinas is commonly used in the US as a neutral alternative term, which makes it hard to understand why this is an issue. Given the large Spanish speaking population of the US and its diplomatic relationships with South America this is not surprising. However, the term is not used or accepted in the islands, and Wikipedia:Naming conflict draws attention to the importance of self-identifying names. There is nothing POV about dealing with a contentious name in a separate paragraph or section: Holland gives an example. Durova's proposal of an explanatory section (rather than footnote) is fine if the mention in the first line is of "other names", but not if "Malvinas" is used without qualification. ... dave souza, talk 21:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
May I suggest a different way of looking at this? There are millions of people in the English speaking world, mainly in the United States, who live in bilingual Spanish regions. I know these islands by both names, but the subject doesn't get raised very often and the names aren't cognates. Frankly it helps to see a reminder that these two names refer to the same place. I don't mean to offend anybody and I'll call these the Falkland Islands if I ever visit, but if I send a young friend to Wikipedia's article the first thing I would want them to know is that the U.K. and Argentina fought a war 24 years ago. Durova 01:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we have lost track of the facts here. I think they are (in no order):
There are also some notable opinions:
Are any of these facts wrong, and are the opinions incorrectly stated (vs. wrong, as they are opinions)? -- Gnetwerker 02:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The Americans can't even spell colour correctly, and think that a bog is a restroom. What they think about a BRITISH territory is not important.-- Gibnews 16:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It would also be a failure of NPOV not to point out that the islanders find the term offensive - and not to bury it halfway down the article or in a footnote, but to state it when the term "Malvinas" is first mentioned. I really, truly can't understand why people are objecting to this. The article is about the Falklands and its people, so it surely must be relevant to say which terms they like, and which they don't. People are accusing me of POV, political bias, and all sorts of things, but in reality it is those who advocate suppression of relevant facts (the islanders dislike of the term) that are the biased ones, and it really makes no sense to me why this simple piece of info is causing so much trouble. TharkunColl 10:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's some quotes from websites listed at the "Official Falklands Islands Portal" [5]:
Added - I notice that the anti-Falklands votes keep piling up, from people who have made no contribution to this debate whatsoever. So be it. For those who wish to trample on the Wikipedia policy concerning the rights of self-identification for ethnic groups, all I can say is this: How would you like it if a larger, foreign neighbour wanted to occupy your country, extinguish your nationhood, and rename it as something else? TharkunColl 12:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
By 'other authorites' you mean those controlled by the US Government which supported the military junta in Argentina.-- Gibnews 16:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
What other "authorities" have is not relevant, if they are contradicted by facts. The fact is that the people of the Falklands self-identify the name of their home as "Falkland Islands". I have provided abundant, written evidence that the Falkland Islanders self-identify as such. Why is there still a dispute over this? TharkunColl 13:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I added Estados Unidos de América to the first line of the article about the USA? After all, large parts of it were once owned by a Spanish speaking power, and (unlike the Falklands) Spanish is still widely spoken there. TharkunColl 13:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I haven't actually done it, and am well aware of WP:POINT. My intention was to highlight a very important issue - namely the right of a country to choose its own name. And yet, what is seriously wrong with my suggestion? Lots and lots of people round the world call the USA Estados Unidos de América, just like lots of people called the Falkland Islands Islas Malvinas. The fact that in both cases, the people concerned are speaking Spanish seems to make no difference whatsoever in the opinion of some editors here. TharkunColl 16:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If you have a proposal about the US article you need to take it to that talk page and not this one. Of course US people call themselves Americans as if they are the only ones, clearly not true, as indeed their United States of America is also patently false. Byut at the end of the day that is what US Americans do. If we can tolerate that we should tolerate English idiosyncracies as well. Actually Malvinas is not used at all in the English language and what the Spanish is is not relevant in this case, SqueakBox 17:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC) las malvinas son argentinas
To 85.195.119.14 - the vandal who deleted this talk page and added the phrase LAS MALVINAS SON ARGENTINAS. Is it any wonder that the Falkland Islanders reject you and everything you stand for? Yours is not the politics of agreement, but of force. TharkunColl 18:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
How about the footnote proposal with the replacement of "Notes" with some word which makes the situation more noticable? It would then include the ISO designation. Such as:
Views? Ian3055 19:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Getting better I suppose. But why is the ISO designation to be preferred over the actual name used by the islanders? It is, after all, their own country. Wikipedia doesn't put " Chinese Taipei" in the first line of the article about Republic of China, so why are the Falklands any different? TharkunColl 19:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem with ISO is that the most important people in this matter do not actually get any direct input into ISO as their foreign affairs are managed by HMG.
In practice this means that its not a UK priority and given that Argentina will lobbby for the name Malvinas to re-inforce its claim and the likes of Spain and its running dogs around the world will back them even if there was a strong objection it would be over-ruled.
The same thing happens to Gibraltar where Spain spends much time and effort to frustrate us joining any international sporting bodies - thus some of our athletes, who have the ability to compete at a world level, are denied any chance.
Similarly Spain tried hard to change the rules in the ITU to exclude Gibraltar from operating satellites. We noticed the change in wording and stopped it. But .fk is small and not well organised. Its residents of have a very uphill battle. Mind you if they had got .fm from ISO instead they might have made more money from it.
However - the version I proposed was correct, the name Malvinas is ONLY in use because of the Argentine claim. -- Gibnews 21:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have suggested previously that you write an entire paragraph on the subject, and (personally), I do not think it would be amiss if this were the second para of the article, as is the case with Mount McKinley/ Denali. No one could possibly miss it. The first sentence, though is meant to be a simple description, without particularly controversial content. Unlike you, I (and most other commentators) do not find the naming conflict of such vital importance. Why you are obsessed with the first line, I do not understand. And what I really want to know is, when someone tells you to go to a Falklands website, are they really telling you to go ".fk" yourself? (joke, joke). -- Gnetwerker 23:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It would appear that no headway is being made with our few intransigent partisans. I would suggest that formal mediation is the next step. Comments? -- Gnetwerker 20:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
A Straw Poll was already organised and a compromise solution proposed by User:KimvdLinde. This has so far been ignored by a few intransigent partisans. Regards, Asterion 23:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are two problems:
Whether or not one accepts the second position, it would seem clear that the Straw Poll has not created a consensus. -- Gnetwerker 00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
"I am here to make an encyclopedia not a political manifest." Strangely enough, so am I. We need to ask ourselves why the ISO and CIA place the word "Malvinas" after the name of the islands, and it should be crystal clear to anyone who looks at this without a pre-formed political agenda that this is purely as a result of Argentine beligerance. As I pointed out above (but no one bothered responding), any tinpot dictatorship could make a frivolous claim to any other country in the world, give it a new name, and on your logic the international community, followed slavishly by Wikipedia, would be obliged to give equal preference to both names. Well, as far as I understood it, Wikipedia is in the business of reporting facts. It's not as if the Falklands have a divided society, some of whom speak Spanish and support the Argentine claim. If that were the case, then it would indeed be reasonable to give both names top billing. But the fact is that the Falklands are not so divided. All territorial claims come from outside the islands, from people who have no linguistic, cultural, or legal connection with the place whatsoever. That being said, I fully realise that I'm not likely to win this argument - even though I'm the only one here who has provided any sort of independent evidence to back up my position. There are two many here who appear to honestly believe that the fair thing to do is report the claims of outside aggressors as if they were of equal status to the people of the country itself. I shall therefore, tentatively, give my agreement to the compromise suggested by Ian3055, along with an explanatory second paragraph. For reasons I have made clear, I'm not particularly happy with it, but there it goes. TharkunColl 09:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC):
The Falkland Islands (Malvinas Objections) are an archipelago in ....
Again, and again, and again -- the "linguistic, cultural, or legal connection" that Wikipedia editors have (or don't have) with the Falklands has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, and if it did, it would be to exclude you for POV. And also, again and again -- this has (IMO) nothing to do with "outside aggressors". For an encyclopedia article, we use verifiable information from published, credible sources. None of your arguments about other countries hold water, and your continued suggestion of systematic political bias on behalf of ISO, the CIA Fact Book, Encyclopedia Britannica, and other reference works is simply absurd. And regarding "facts" -- for the (probably not) final time -- Wikipedia is in the business of verifiability, not truth.
In any case, Ian3055's suggestion is clumsy, though I would not object to a simple footnote, a la:
although my preference would be
And a final footnote: I think that those on both sides of this issue will find yourselves better served by coming swiftly to an agreement that by mediation. Mediators will look at Wikipedia policies, and I would lay even odds that the result will be something liked even less than the various proposals so far. Further, it may be instructive to study the recent case of User:Gibraltarian. This is not the direction anyone wants to go, I hope.-- Gnetwerker 10:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's another suggestion for a compromise (which at least makes clear that the ISO designation differs from the name given by the islanders themselves):
The Falkland Islands ( ISO designation Falkland Islands (Malvinas) 1) are an archipelago in .... TharkunColl 12:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The ISO designation should go in a box along with the currency and telephone code and other such data.-- Gibnews 14:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with ALSO menitoning it there, but the continues push to get it of the first line is not going to fly with me as long as I only see political reasons for that. People can keep using this as a soapbox as long as they like, but soapbox arguments are not going to convince me. KimvdLinde 15:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is that Britannica source highly revealing, it is also demonstrably wrong or out of date. The Falkland Islands have been a "British Overseas Territory" since 2002, not a colony (and most assuredly do not have "Colony" as part of their name). So much for the Britannica, eh? TharkunColl 15:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
There are still a number of unanswered questions that I invite responses to. Accusations of political bias, however, will get us nowhere, because one person's political bias is another's neutral stance. In other words, let us please confine ourselves to the facts.
Wikipedia is supposed to reflect existing authorities. These include ISO, Encyclopaedia Britannica, the CIA World Factbook, the media, what's "out there" as found by Google etc. All of these support Falkland Islands (Malvinas). The point above, why are outside bodies such as ISO, CIA, Britannica etc. regarded as neutral or indeed accurate sources, is telling. Wikipedia's view of what constitutes a reliable source is long settled - and the one thing the Islanders are not, in this case, is neutral.
If the islanders want to change this, they must go the long way round. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. As far as I can see every "compromise" suggested by those who do not want Malvinas in the lead has been tantamount to advocacy. The neutral suggestions made by Durova appear to have considerable merit, but a small number of editors appear to object to the on principle.
Many of us have sympathy with the Islanders in not wishing to support a territorial claim, albeit based on "squatters' rights", but Wikipedia is not here to assist them in promoting their campaign for change, it's here to reflect the real world, and in the real world Malvinas is a name commonly applied to these islands. Just zis Guy you know? 15:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't all the official Falklands government websites I quoted and linked to count as verifiable sources? Surely they are the most authoritative of all? TharkunColl 16:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
This continuing argument reflects the difference(s) between conflicting yet verifiable, "authoritative", sources. These seems to be broadly aligned on American English (including the ISO) and British English. In the circumstances, until such time as the verifiable "authoritative" sources resolve their differences, is there any alternative to putting both terms into the first sentence - perhaps along the lines of:
Ian Cairns 16:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly the Encyclopedia Britanica has a missleading name, its American. The Falkland Islands are British and deserve a BRITISH name. If ISO mistakely names them something else to appease a would be claimant, lets reflect that by noting it in a box along with other items of that kind. when the FCO call it the Falkland Islands (Malvinas) then I will believe thats the name.-- Gibnews 17:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me that this discussion is not going to resolve itself as win / lose or lose / win. Perhaps if we could agree to set aside the differences in the sources and go for something like a win / win ? Ian Cairns 17:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Editors on both sides of the argument expressed interest in the proposal by Gnetwerker, which I set out below incorporating my suggested modifications and a revised opening drawing on KimvdLinde's comment:
The last sentence opens with Some rather than Many, as verification would be needed of the numbers and circumstances. This could form the basis of discussion as a way forward. ... dave souza, talk 18:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't see any problems with that. It is accurate, verifiable, neutral and informative. I can't really see any reason anyone could argue with it. Lordandmaker 21:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is some data of the type called for in Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names). It is presented here without further comment. Please don't edit this section, though if you find errors, put a note below and I will correct them.
Data gathered from Google Scholar (GS), Google Books (GB), New York Times (81-06 search). New York Times (1851 - 1980 search), Guardian.co.uk (G.uk) (1998 - 2006 archive), Encylclopedia Britannica (Brit), Encarta (Enc), and Columbia Encyclopedia (Col) on word/phrase usage. In all cases, the most obvious online sources/sites (e.g. www.britannica.com) were used, and no "advanced" searches were performed. When quotes are given, they were used in the search:
Name | GS | GB | NYT 1981-2006 |
NYT 1851 - 1980 |
G.uk 1998 - 2006 |
Brit | Enc | Col |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Falklands | 6230 | 16,300 | 1722 | 225 | 1624 | 25 | 39 | 5 |
"Falkland Islands" | 6160 | 14,100 | 1773 | 1984 | 234 | 111 | 42 | 24 |
Malvinas | 4930 | 8100 | 219 | 53 | 63 | 38 | 36 | 3 |
"Islas Malvinas" | 750 | 1180 | 12 | 6 | 2 | 31 | 44 | 2 |
Opening paragraphs of other encyclopedias (mostly presented before, but I wanted everything in one place):
That's all for now. -- Gnetwerker 01:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Also note for completeness and as previously mentioned:
Just zis Guy you know? 09:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The numbers above are from whatever the online britannica.com searches by default (and any spelling errors are likely mine alone). Also, I want it understood that (despite the above?) I (personally) continue to support use of the ISO designation. -- Gnetwerker 06:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Malvinas describes a name that used, Falkland Islands is what the place is actually named spot the difference.
Being repetitive, Britanica and Encarta are American sources, Americans are notorious for their knowledge of countries outside the US. As an example, the CIA factbook on Gibraltar is reasonable because I took time to update it and they listened.
Britanica says British colony occupying a narrow peninsula of Spain's southern Mediterranean coast, just northeast of the Strait of Gibraltar. It is 3 miles (5 km) long and 3/4 mile wide and is connected to Spain by a low, sandy isthmus
NONSENSE ! The above wording is not even consistent with itself.
Encarta is even worse.
But despite that Wikipedia can get it right.-- Gibnews 09:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
One of the points of posing the above is that it is the information a mediator or arbitrators will use to determine the answer, as it follows the criteria in the relevant policies. If there can be no better compromise reached, I think we will end up with "Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)" or some other version using the Spanish name, which I think is less preferable than the ISO version. -- Gnetwerker 15:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Then leave the article titled 'The Falkland Islands' and lets add an article about alternative names in the section about the territorial claim and put this to bed.-- Gibnews 17:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Some have argued that the British government is not a neutral source, and likewise the Argentine. So let's ignore de jure (since some dispute it), and concentrate on de facto. Which name is used by the people who run the islands? Which name is accepted by the people of the islands? Please remember that this is not an article about international territorial claims, but rather about the Falklands and its people. As for all those so-called neutral sources souch as ISO, CIA, Britannica - time and again they have been proved to be inaccurate and/or woefully out ot date. TharkunColl
Why on earth would you want to cross out the two national governments and rely instead on the one group whose agenda is strongest and least neutral? This, of course, is the very heart of the matter. Whatever we may think of the fact that the Falkland Islands exist in their current form, the fact is that they do. For the sake of neutrality, we must use this as the basis of our description of the place. By all means mention the territorial claim further down. Those who disagree that this stance really is the truly neutral one should provide examples of Wikipedia articles where externally conferred names are favoured over those adopted by the place itself. I have asked for this many times now, but nobody has actually done so, which is surely telling. TharkunColl 19:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
TharkunColl and dave souza, the arguments you make are correct, but red herrings. As KimvdLinde points out, we are not proposing to call the islands something other than their given, local name "(The) Falkland Islands". This entire debate is about the inclusion of a secondary name in the article introduction. In my opinion, if your position was toward clarity and not a political one, you would appeciate this. Your concern, manifestly, is not to have the islands called "Falkland Islands" (which is uncontested), but to exclude from the introduction alternative names validated by various reference works, world standards, and third parties, or to insert such obtrusive objections to the secondary name as to stigmatize it. That, in my view, is the root of the accusations of POV -- your position that another named should be summarily excluded. -- Gnetwerker 21:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The slightly modified version of Gnetwerker's proposal above attracted a lot of support, and one objection which I've attempted to address with a few revisions as shown below. For most editors this generally seems to be a tolerable proposal.
Any constructive suggestions will be welcome, and I hope that it will be possible for the protection to be lifted and this proposal added for the first two paragraphs to allow normal editing to resume. ... dave souza, talk 21:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a different suggestion:
Another important Wikipedia policy reference here is WP:LEAD. The most important sentence in it, IMHO, is: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article.". -- Gnetwerker 00:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Crazy debate. Territorial claims are completely irrelevant. Look at all the territorial claims, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia etc., have all made in the 20th century alone. And enshrined in the Constitution of the Irish Republic is a territorial claim to part of the United Kingdom. So, like the Argentinian "claim" its all meaningless. the important thing here is that the islands are under British sovereignty and that this, the English-language version of the Wikipedia, should present the name of the islands in English. 81.131.109.124 13:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Although some disagree with the foreign names in the title lead (including me), I think we all now agree that the majority consensus is to include The Falkland Islands (also known as the Malvinas) in the title. So why is the debate still continuing?
I think we should unprotect the article, and add this new title line in. And then we can look to put a naming section in. The discussion here has gone on long enough; and is now becoming stale and going off topic. Astrotrain 16:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Do it and lets get on with life.-- Gibnews 17:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of protection is to prevent an edit war. If everybody can agree to maintain civil dialogue here and not make changes without broad agreement, there is no particular reason it should not be unprotected. I see no reason why we should not assume good faith on the part of all concerned and no reason why TharkunColl, Gibnews or anyone else should not continue trying to persuade folks on this Talk page, just as long as they are not going to start another revert war. Debate makes good article, as a rule. If everybody is prepared to send Mr Ego on a long Wikibreak I will happily unprotect it. Just zis Guy you know? 18:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
No objection, but can someone state what they think the first two-para consensus is. I see "Falkland Islands (also known as), but what about the war reference in 1st para, naming conflict in 2nd? Is that consensus? If we don't know, it will be a quick trip back to protection, and/or a trip to User:Gibraltarian-land for someone. -- Gnetwerker 20:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Generally this debate has been polite and people have avoided personal attacks. As a Gibraltarian I am offended by the above reference. This is NOT the place to discuss that unfortunate matter, apart from noting that ONE Gibraltar user was blocked for bad behaviour provoked by a number of equally bad Spanish users with an agenda. The Gibraltar page today shows mindless vandalism by Spaniards is again rife, albeit swiftly contained.
I do not intend to make the mistakes of others, please do not dump in my direction.-- Gibnews 09:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This splits the first sentence, briefly mentioning growth and tourism to give an indication of the whole article. Otherwise as the Mark II version. .. dave souza, talk 22:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I can live with the current wording, but its self evident that a Spanish phrase is used in spanish speaking countries.-- Gibnews 09:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The discussions are much more civil now. I hope nobody starts the edit war again. Great job in reaching a consensus to all.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 23:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have copied dave souza's paragraph from above, with a few small changes: I wikified South Atlantic Ocean (changing it to its canonical WP name), and added the sentence about the capital city, which had been orphaned by the changes. I left the sovereignty para more-or-less as-is, expect a little wordsmithing to reduce (but not eliminate) the redundancy of mentioning Islas Malvinas both there and in the opening para. This probably needs more work. I also wikilinked "ISO" to ISO 3166 and may have wordsmithed a little here and there. Let's see how long this lasts! (And in the spirit of a "clean slate", if this compromise holds for a few days or a week, I propose archiving this whole discussion and starting fresh here, unless there are major objections. This Talk page is still well over 150kb.) -- Gnetwerker 23:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
P.s. - I specifially did not implement KimvdLinde's suggestion, and here is my reasoning: the current wording "a number of" conveniantly ducks the issue of who does and who doesn't use Islas Malvinas versus Islas Falklands versus something else. Saying "most" requires (IMO) some actual count or substantiation. I almost changed it to simply "some other Spanish-speaking countries", but this would have been simply weaker, not more NPOV, so I didn't. -- Gnetwerker 23:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
P.p.s - I also almost inserted "self-governing" before "English speaking", but did not, simply because it hasn't been thoroughly discussed. I personally support doing so, per Britannica and Encarta (see above). -- Gnetwerker 23:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It is self governing, so I can think there is no objection against that. Ican live with the "the most common usage in Spanish is ...". I do not think that if Islas Falklands is only mentioned 848 times, that there is any Spanish speaking country (including Chili) that does it consistently. So, most is in hat context even conservative.
KimvdLinde
00:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Almost despite myself, I actually find this current version not too bad. Let's hope somebody doesn't revert it in the meantime... TharkunColl 00:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Added... I think I might replace the phrase "a growing tourism" with "a growth in tourism" - simply for linguistic reasons. TharkunColl 00:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, misread it. I've added a single letter (so as to conform to proper English usage). TharkunColl 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Astrotrain made "small amendments", which I post below for discussion:
In my opinion pointing out the disputed name in the first paragraph is essential, and mention of the war and economy in the intro is important: exact form up for discussion. ... dave souza, talk 20:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
On the one hand, getting back to a "normal" editing regime is clearly desirable. On the other hand, we want to make sure that the current state of consensus does not dramatically fail. Personally, I never liked the economy sentence either, as it was unsourced (as noted) and the result of a certain amount of political correctness. But let us try to be sensitive, especially those editors who took strong positions during the previous debate. -- Gnetwerker 00:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought it useful to mention that the reason for the so called 'Falklands war' was the invasion. Although I don't intend to persist with it, its cause and effect. It was not war for regime change. There was no POV or value judgement involved, it was strictly factual. Why is telling the truth 'incendiary' ?
In 1982 The islands were in invaded by Argentina. The United Kingdom sent a taskforce and recaptured the territory in the Falklands War.
-- Gibnews 19:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The consensus we achieved was in relation to the use of foreign names to describe the territory, the same foreign names that were previously in the second paragraph on the main article and which some, like Just zis Guy you know? insisted should go in a more prominent position.
The invasion and conflict in the Falklands is very important as without it I doubt most of us would even know the place ever existed. The conflict or 'war' occured because of the invasion and the term is pretty neutral and factual, and the wording used makes no value judgement on the merits of either the invasion or the recapture, again a neutral term which describes what happened.
As it is the single most important event in the territory it deserves prominence and should not offend anyones sensibilities excepting anyone who wants to gloss over history.
'liberation' is term that implies other things 'recapure' describes what happens when a subsequent invasion succeeds. -- Gibnews 13:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The problems with your edit are:
If someone were to write that, I would certainly expect that you would hit the roof (with good reason). The details of occupation, capture, etc are well-covered in the accompanying articles. It is not appropriate to recapitulate them in the intro. An alternate version would be fine, but it it needs to avoid "war words" like "invasion" that will just set off a series of reverts. -- Gnetwerker 21:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
the islands were the site of the Falklands War between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Sounds to me like the location was arbitraly picked for a war game, and does not explain why the conflict occured in a concise manner.
However, if someone likes my wording, please change it that way, I don't want to engage in an edit war either.-- Gibnews 13:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's me done. The following links might be useful to someone: