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http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/04/10/fired-for-treason-comments/25569181/
Notable here? Hcobb ( talk) 16:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Boeing Cejas revealed plans of export Modernized A 10 for International customers. both Flightglobal [1], and Janes [2] , I already created the Export Column about the Export, and Indian Plans to acquire the A 10, with two ref Links. If anything which is not meet the guidelines of Wikipedia please delete it — Preceding unsigned comment added by SAJEEVJINO ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
References
This is BLP, so I can't add it myself. As I understand it the issues are:
Hcobb ( talk) 00:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
[1] The UASF has now "indefinitely delayed" retiring the A-10 fleet, which means this episode of trying to retire it is done for a while. With that, can we cut down the massive Proposed Retirement section? America789 ( talk) 18:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
This seems to be a change from first fielding, but the article doesn't seem to cover it. Hcobb ( talk) 16:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Recent changes have introduced massive, paragraph long quoted sections. Not only is the level of detail inappropriate and overwhelming for an encyclopedia article, they also introduce a serious copyvio issue in that the level of quoting may exceed that that is permissible by fair use. It needs to be massively trimmed back and rewritten. Nigel Ish ( talk) 15:38, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
fnlayson performed an edit removing a few random things. The mention that the A-10 is a single seat aircraft in the lede. I don't know what that's about. He made some minor changes to the bit I added explaining CAS in the lede that I don't really care too much about one way or the other. The bit covered by his edit summary is where he cuts out my summary of the A-10's laudable performance in desert storm and the air force's acceptance of the A-10 concept. I don't really get this bit either. It's about as uncontroversial as things get. As far as I know there really is no other side to this. If I cared I'd defend the use of the word distinguished or something like it, but honestly I don't care, so if someone offers a more "neutral" wording, who cares? But the facts are that after DS the AF accepted the A-10 and abandoned it's attempts of abandoning dedicated CAS aircraft. I feel it's important for there to be a general overview of the A-10 and it's history in the intro, so I feel that that should stay in the intro. Then he moves around the listing of conflicts the A-10's been involved in. He took out the context of the evolution of cas and how the air force developed the a-10, the first dedicated cas plane. I'd like to know his reasoning for that. Also why that wasn't in the edit summary and why he didn't break up the rather large edit making things rather untidy. Yea the wording on the development of the gau 8 and the design of the a-10 around the gau-8's not great. After fnlayson's edit I was working on that and I came up with a wording that I think works. And fnlayson got rid of the one sentence description of A-10 upgrades and the current state of the A-10, which I don't understand and which fnlayson's edit summary doesn't provide any insight into. Not really as ideal as I'd like things to be if I'm brutally honest. He seems to prefer limited equipment on austere runways vs limited facilities... I could go either way on that one. Obviously bilcat's reversion of my revert is a sticky wicket as well. I'm sure he has some sort of reason for reverting a revert. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:39, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
I was looking up a source because it's easier to complain than to put in effort I suppose and found that the A-X section might be possible copyright violation, or the book could be using text from this article. I'd actually be surprised if it's copyvio, but who knows "The Aviation History" Relly Victoria Petrescu, Florian Ion Petrescu BoD – Books on Demand, 2013 Around page 29 TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:09, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Pretty much everything about this article is screaming re-assess GA status to me. The operational history section's a joke. Tags are popping up everywhere. There are plenty of other problems. Oh, and it seems to have come into vogue to trash the prose of the article to boot. It looks like there's no option other than re-assessment and almost certain delisting. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:22, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II/1
Can someone tell me where this OR narrative is coming from? How did the US Air Force develop the A-10 from fast jet fighters and fighter bombers like the F-100, F-104, and F-4? Fast jets have small guns, they go fast, they tend to have swept wings, they fly fast at high altitudes. How did the air force develop close air support doctrine utilizing none of those things in the 1960s from apparently whole cloth? Why is the focus of the A-10 not on dive bombing, a method that had been developed of dropping bombs on small moving targets, or troop positions? Why does the A-10 have an armored cockpit when the original A-1, the F-100, the F-104, and F-4 don't have armored cockpits? Why did the air force choose a 30mm gun? Was there any experimentation in using different guns in close air support before the summer of love? The A-10 is slow, but did that lack of speed become a problem over time? Why did an air force enamored of fast, high altitude jets with no guns suddenly develop a slow, low altitude jet with a huge gun? What was the Air Force's experience with tactical bombing and CAS in recent conflicts like korea and vietnam? The A-10 was developed as a cost effective, updated replacement of the circa 1945 A-1. Why don't we strip the article of all mention of the A-1? The A-37? Is that a motorway from london to birmingshiretondon on essex-wye? The A-7 was examined as the production line was still up and running. The air force examined using the A-7 to replace the A-1 but chose not to. Why? Was the A-7 not enough like the F-100, F-104, and F-4? Why was the air force afraid that the army chyenne could threaten funding for the air force's fast jets? The Air force is looking at something at least as effective as the 1945 A-1 skyraider in the mid-late 1960s? What? Were they just listening to a lot of "timewarp", or reading too much HG welles? And where did this come from? Suddenly at the very end of the history section the air force has decided to do something that the article hasn't done anything at all to explain that's come completely and totally out of left field. What does a 1945 A-1 have to do with F-4s? F-100s? F-104s? Didn't the air force replace the F-4 with the F-15? What article is this? Where is this narrative coming from? Has anyone considered just randomly removing whole paragraphs from the article to see if that improves it? They have? Good. Is it working? A big problem we've identified with this article is that it has poor coverage of a lot of the details of the A-10. We've been cutting a lot of stuff. I think we just need to keep cutting more and more stuff, and that will make the coverage better and better. Someone asked me the other day why they couldn't find any more information on wikipedia about the A-10s that he'd read about that were deployed to fight ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, and asked me if this is how websites like wikipedia and history in general forgets things like the role the A-10 played in the middle east conflicts of the early 20th century. I think we should report this guy to a aviation project friendly admin. He's clearly a dangerous subversive. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 19:57, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
First off, TeeTylerToe, you might want to read WP:TLDR. More importantly, I removed this entry from WP:3O because, frankly, you said yourself that multiple editors are involved; and 3O is for disputes between only two editors (also, why did you even list this at 3O when above you said that you are against that forum?). On that same note, I also wouldn't advise listing this at WP:DRN because it appears that this issue had been resolved before you even got involved, so this is thus borderline pointy judgment. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 19:19, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article's title be changed to reflect the merger between Lockheed Martin and Fairchild Republic? It would be more accurate. Jak474 ( talk) 22:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Following the decision in 1992 to keep the A-10 in service, should it be "a" decision instead of "the"? Furthermore, who made the decision? Shouldn't there be a bit more additional background info about the decision???-- Now wiki ( talk) 18:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The lead states that the A-10 engages armored vehicles and tanks. That sounds like a euphemism. WP:MOS, in "Words to watch", at WP:EUPHEMISM says the "...word died is neutral and accurate; avoid euphemisms such as passed away...civilian casualties should not be masked as collateral damage." Based on my reading of the article, it seems the A-10 fires the autocannon or missiles or uses bombs against armored vehicles and tanks. OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 23:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The current version of the article cites a maximum takeoff weight of 51,000 pounds, which is supported by the af.mil Fact sheet. However, USAF TO 1A-10C-1 (2 April 2012, Change 10) (The A-10C flight manual) states on page 5-12 (Section V, Operating Limitations, Weight Limitations):
"The maximum gross weight for towing, taxiing, takeoff, and landing is 46,000 pounds."
AND:
"The maximum in-flight gross weight is 51,000 pounds."
Which should be reflected in the article? M16A3NoRecoilHax ( talk) 07:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Another editor ( Fnlayson) reverted an edit ( diff) I made to the article's short description, explaining that "text [was] removed without clear reason." Fnlayson is correct. I apologize for not providing an explanation. I created this section to (belatedly) explain my reasoning.
I edited the short description to (a) shorten the description from 72 characters to 49; and (b) remove duplicative information, viz., "Fairchild Republic". My reasoning is based on the guidance contained in Wikipedia:Short description#Content. Short descriptions are in some ways counterintuitive. I have found myself reviewing that Content section several times to make sure I'm writing a decent short description. Here are a few of the points from the Content section that are relevant to the present discussion:
I defer to other editors re: whether or not the current short description should be changed. // Btw, I think the gist of the current short description is one of the best I've seen: "single-seat, twin turbofan engine attack aircraft". - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I am a man. The traditional male pronouns are fine.) 20:06, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
The article states: "The armor has been tested to withstand strikes from 23 mm cannon fire and some strikes from 57 mm rounds.[60][64]". Source 60 is "Donald and March 2004, p. 18" and source 64 is "Jenkins 1998, pp. 47, 49". Why aren't the titles of the books given? Does anyone know the titles of the books in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.5.172 ( talk) 02:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Howdy, casual observer here, wondering if any of the cited sources on the A-10 discuss the Cessna A-37 Dragonfly. My understanding—from personal connections and casual reading, definitely not WP:RS—is that the USAF pursued the A-37 largely as an interim stopgap measure to staunch A-1 attrition and address shortcomings in the A-1's capabilities until a better aircraft (the A-10) could be developed, and in this respect, the A-10 also replaced the A-37 in addition to the A-1. I realize that the A-10 is a much more capable aircraft designed with a far greater emphasis on survivability than the A-37, but as I understand it, the Super Tweet was never the aircraft the USAF really wanted—it was the aircraft they could get cheap and in large numbers, right away, and there was a war on. Seems to me that this topic would be a worthy addition to the article and I'm surprised it's not addressed already. Pardon my ramblings. Carguychris ( talk) 21:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I suppose I should have explained my reasons for editing the previously added information first. My reasons for the edit was because the part about Pierre Sprey's involvement in the A-10's development was outdated since it was added in 2007 ( /info/en/?search=Talk:Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II/Archive_2#Pierre_Sprey) and more information has since come out that made Sprey's claims questionable and contradictory. I apologize for not notifying anyone that I was editing the article and I should have discussed it first. AardvarkSleuth ( talk) 07:54, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed several others have already attempted to make this change but it was been revoked on the grounds that the admins are under the impression the Wiki page is being troll bombed, or words to that effect.
I wish to dispute the mentions of Pierre Sprey used in the section "A-X Program". Pierre Sprey is one of the more infamous members of the "Fighter Plane Mafia" a group with a reputation for inserting themselves into various historical events regarding the development of United States Military Aviation projects between the 19050's and 1980's for media attention. There is no historical evidence that Pierre Sprey was ever involved in the A-X program, he was not a member of Fairchild's branch of Republic Aviation at Long Island who designed the A-10, and at the time the A-10 was being conceived Sprey had already left the Pentagon in order to pursue a career as a record producer. The A-10's lead designer was Alexander Kartveli [1].
The sources currently cited in the article's current form that make the claim of Sprey's involvement are the Biography of John Boyd, one of Sprey's best friends and fellow member of the Fighter Plane Mafia, and the book by James Burton "Pentagon Wars" a book who's factual accuracy was debunked over 20 years ago, [2] and is now largely considered a work of fiction. These sources have no historical value and would not be accepted in any other serious publication.
I request that these citations be noted, that the article either remove references to Sprey's involvement and the sources which claim so, or that the dispute be acknowledged in a separate section of the article.
Malcious ( talk) 14:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
References
I second this, as there is no proper citation, rather a simple "Coram 2004", with no link. 100.36.155.231 ( talk) 23:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
NoReformers ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki), SneakyStephano ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki), 50.90.211.22, and perhaps Malcious ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) all appear to be the same person, so I don't know that it qualfies as "a lot of attention". The article history and this section bears the link, which is just too coincidental. As to the merits, I don't know, I'm a bit more concerned with the monkey business. {{ checkuser needed}}. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Okay so I would like to offer a suggestion however I'm not sure if I have this whole story correct so here's my best summary and someone can let me know if I got it right.
So about 7 months ago the YouTuber lazerpig known for his other critiques of the fighter Mafia members published two videos about the a-10 disputing the claims that spray was ever involved in the a-10 program. Currently the only proof that he ever was is from books about another member of the group who claimed spray was involved in the basic requirements set out for the a-10 not designing the aircraft as a whole.
If this is all correct the answer is quite simple. Spray didn't design the a-10 the aircraft development team and Fairchild did, then built there design and submitted it to the air force for testing, that's how aircraft procurement works. Now if spray wrote the requirements set out for the program his name should be referenced on the proposals submitted to every company that decided to enter the program. If there is no proof he ever set the specifications for the aircraft then there should be no argument. The proper documentation should be able to be requested from whichever aircraft manufacturer took over the design team when Fairchild was bought out. Or a freedom of information request could be made looking for the original Fairchild design proposal and the documents that layed out the requirements for competitors in the program Tankophiliac ( talk) 15:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
As of now, part of the development section of this article has been made a hidden comment on the basis that claims made by the late Pierre Sprey are under greater scrutiny following public discussion of his falsification of involvement in previous projects. Unless a source independent from Boyd can substantiate the claims, the reference is based on hearsay statements from an individual known for exaggeration and falsification and will be removed soon. To break seriousness for a moment, the bit about "German WWII veterans" really is the icing on the embellishment cake. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 04:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The Sprey text should be removed or heavily re-written based on other sources, imo. The Campbell Warthog book (see article Biblio) says he became one of the Whiz Kids and helped write/revise the requirements spec for A-X program. -Fnlayson ( talk) 16:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Sprey's role in the committee which put fort the requirements for the program is referenced elsewhere and seems undisputed, except by those invested enough to dispute Sprey's involvement wholesale. Whatever occurs with references to Sprey's purportedly more material role, references to his role in the aforementioned committee shouldn't be expunged, although perhaps more citations should be added for this apart from Boyd. Zusty001 ( talk) 00:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Pbritti: I should apologise; Lt. Gen. Agan's interview with Neufeld does not mention Sprey by name. Agan was a figure in the F-X program, and a proponent of single-role fighters. What I quoted above was "The Revolt of the Majors"'s own words, derived from an interview with Sprey. I'm not sure if I heard the quote improperly attributed somewhere else or if was purely my own mistake. I retract a large portion of what I said. The exception to this retraction is that Sprey's involvement, even if exaggerated in media, in other sources, and even by himself, isn't really deniable, and shouldn't be eliminated wholly from the article. (Somewhat related to what I said about contrary claims being 'unjustifiably conspiratorial' is that the Sprey and Agan interviews by Neufeld were conducted within two years of each other, with the other two Neufeld interviews cited in "Revolt" being with Calvin Hargis of the Department for Development, and Gen. Roger Rhodarmer, the head of the F-X program, presumably as a series of USAF interviews on that aforementioned program); "The Revolt of the Majors" may still be relevant for citation, as well. Zusty001 ( talk) 23:19, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Checking to see if I am shadowbanned. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Pbritti: It appears I am not. I was unable to reply to you yesterday. "...nearly every independently verifiable source dismisses them." Putting aside what may be called an 'independently verifiable source' for these purposes, I disagree. The problem, given that there is one, is the simple lack of sources that give anything resembling a list of persons involved in the A-X and F-X programs. Numerous sources involving known U.S. Air Force and general U.S. military affiliated persons tell of Sprey's *involvement* in the program, if only to discredit what they purport to be his exaggerations of his own importance. I don't see an attempt to discredit this entirely as good grounds to expunge his name. If I were to make a suggestion, and hopefully a moderate one, it would be that the currently hidden portion should be revised, adding clarification and perhaps more information on these complications, as well as additional information on the development in general; Or, if needed, it should be deleted and rewritten, without expunging all mention of Sprey. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Ahunt: Was unable to edit on this talk page, as well as other pages, yesterday. Edit would publish and then simply not show up anywhere. I'm unsure why. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I propose the section on GAU-8 describing it being built specifically for “anti-tank” operation contain a disclaimer that the weapon was only effective at penetrating side and rear armor of post-war tanks (such as T-55) when it came out.
The weapon was essentially obsolete at the anti-tank role for any contemporary armor. The Maverick missile was always intended to be its primary anti-tank weapon and this has been borne out in practice. DietDrPhil ( talk) 18:14, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeah I agree there should be saction — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.159.113.195 ( talk) 03:48, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
There have been a couple edits to insert the word "bean" somewhere into this page. While I don't know the origin of it, my best guess is that there's some sort of inside joke going on. If it increases, I might ask for a week of increased protection. Unrelated, but if anyone knows the context for the joke, please share it with me on my talk page (I could use a laugh). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 17:57, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If you all are so invested in preserving this page for some strange reason then why not use all the time to make it more readable and informative. Let alone the seriously lack of correct citations or flat out missing sources. I was hoping to be able to confirm whether or not this really was the only plane ever designed for CAS, Searching the internet always leads back here and I can't find a source in any of the links on this page. If it exists please send it to me I need to know this for my homework. If this cannot be provided then why is this still in the article. This is supposed to be a encyclopedic reference source and I suspect there is something else going on here. I don't understand Wikipedia politics or politics in general. Just give me a source or page number or video link or interview or ISBN number or a isle number in the library of congress. I have no interest in Wikipedia editing, I only came here to learn about the A-10. When I was disappointed by the underwhelming state of this article I figured I could help make it easier for the next guy. Had I know this was some sort of popular relevant or even recent page I would not have gotten involved. Maybe I just underestimate the number of people just watching for wiki edits or whatevere but I can't help but suggest that some of you spend that time improving this page for actually users to come and find information on. Thank You for you time and effort on wikipedia in general. Just remember what it is all about. Please on write things that are true. This isn't reddit. -- Ross — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.103.4 ( talk) 15:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request its removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Talk to my owner:Online 00:17, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/04/10/fired-for-treason-comments/25569181/
Notable here? Hcobb ( talk) 16:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Boeing Cejas revealed plans of export Modernized A 10 for International customers. both Flightglobal [1], and Janes [2] , I already created the Export Column about the Export, and Indian Plans to acquire the A 10, with two ref Links. If anything which is not meet the guidelines of Wikipedia please delete it — Preceding unsigned comment added by SAJEEVJINO ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
References
This is BLP, so I can't add it myself. As I understand it the issues are:
Hcobb ( talk) 00:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
[1] The UASF has now "indefinitely delayed" retiring the A-10 fleet, which means this episode of trying to retire it is done for a while. With that, can we cut down the massive Proposed Retirement section? America789 ( talk) 18:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
This seems to be a change from first fielding, but the article doesn't seem to cover it. Hcobb ( talk) 16:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Recent changes have introduced massive, paragraph long quoted sections. Not only is the level of detail inappropriate and overwhelming for an encyclopedia article, they also introduce a serious copyvio issue in that the level of quoting may exceed that that is permissible by fair use. It needs to be massively trimmed back and rewritten. Nigel Ish ( talk) 15:38, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
fnlayson performed an edit removing a few random things. The mention that the A-10 is a single seat aircraft in the lede. I don't know what that's about. He made some minor changes to the bit I added explaining CAS in the lede that I don't really care too much about one way or the other. The bit covered by his edit summary is where he cuts out my summary of the A-10's laudable performance in desert storm and the air force's acceptance of the A-10 concept. I don't really get this bit either. It's about as uncontroversial as things get. As far as I know there really is no other side to this. If I cared I'd defend the use of the word distinguished or something like it, but honestly I don't care, so if someone offers a more "neutral" wording, who cares? But the facts are that after DS the AF accepted the A-10 and abandoned it's attempts of abandoning dedicated CAS aircraft. I feel it's important for there to be a general overview of the A-10 and it's history in the intro, so I feel that that should stay in the intro. Then he moves around the listing of conflicts the A-10's been involved in. He took out the context of the evolution of cas and how the air force developed the a-10, the first dedicated cas plane. I'd like to know his reasoning for that. Also why that wasn't in the edit summary and why he didn't break up the rather large edit making things rather untidy. Yea the wording on the development of the gau 8 and the design of the a-10 around the gau-8's not great. After fnlayson's edit I was working on that and I came up with a wording that I think works. And fnlayson got rid of the one sentence description of A-10 upgrades and the current state of the A-10, which I don't understand and which fnlayson's edit summary doesn't provide any insight into. Not really as ideal as I'd like things to be if I'm brutally honest. He seems to prefer limited equipment on austere runways vs limited facilities... I could go either way on that one. Obviously bilcat's reversion of my revert is a sticky wicket as well. I'm sure he has some sort of reason for reverting a revert. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:39, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
I was looking up a source because it's easier to complain than to put in effort I suppose and found that the A-X section might be possible copyright violation, or the book could be using text from this article. I'd actually be surprised if it's copyvio, but who knows "The Aviation History" Relly Victoria Petrescu, Florian Ion Petrescu BoD – Books on Demand, 2013 Around page 29 TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:09, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Pretty much everything about this article is screaming re-assess GA status to me. The operational history section's a joke. Tags are popping up everywhere. There are plenty of other problems. Oh, and it seems to have come into vogue to trash the prose of the article to boot. It looks like there's no option other than re-assessment and almost certain delisting. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 00:22, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II/1
Can someone tell me where this OR narrative is coming from? How did the US Air Force develop the A-10 from fast jet fighters and fighter bombers like the F-100, F-104, and F-4? Fast jets have small guns, they go fast, they tend to have swept wings, they fly fast at high altitudes. How did the air force develop close air support doctrine utilizing none of those things in the 1960s from apparently whole cloth? Why is the focus of the A-10 not on dive bombing, a method that had been developed of dropping bombs on small moving targets, or troop positions? Why does the A-10 have an armored cockpit when the original A-1, the F-100, the F-104, and F-4 don't have armored cockpits? Why did the air force choose a 30mm gun? Was there any experimentation in using different guns in close air support before the summer of love? The A-10 is slow, but did that lack of speed become a problem over time? Why did an air force enamored of fast, high altitude jets with no guns suddenly develop a slow, low altitude jet with a huge gun? What was the Air Force's experience with tactical bombing and CAS in recent conflicts like korea and vietnam? The A-10 was developed as a cost effective, updated replacement of the circa 1945 A-1. Why don't we strip the article of all mention of the A-1? The A-37? Is that a motorway from london to birmingshiretondon on essex-wye? The A-7 was examined as the production line was still up and running. The air force examined using the A-7 to replace the A-1 but chose not to. Why? Was the A-7 not enough like the F-100, F-104, and F-4? Why was the air force afraid that the army chyenne could threaten funding for the air force's fast jets? The Air force is looking at something at least as effective as the 1945 A-1 skyraider in the mid-late 1960s? What? Were they just listening to a lot of "timewarp", or reading too much HG welles? And where did this come from? Suddenly at the very end of the history section the air force has decided to do something that the article hasn't done anything at all to explain that's come completely and totally out of left field. What does a 1945 A-1 have to do with F-4s? F-100s? F-104s? Didn't the air force replace the F-4 with the F-15? What article is this? Where is this narrative coming from? Has anyone considered just randomly removing whole paragraphs from the article to see if that improves it? They have? Good. Is it working? A big problem we've identified with this article is that it has poor coverage of a lot of the details of the A-10. We've been cutting a lot of stuff. I think we just need to keep cutting more and more stuff, and that will make the coverage better and better. Someone asked me the other day why they couldn't find any more information on wikipedia about the A-10s that he'd read about that were deployed to fight ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, and asked me if this is how websites like wikipedia and history in general forgets things like the role the A-10 played in the middle east conflicts of the early 20th century. I think we should report this guy to a aviation project friendly admin. He's clearly a dangerous subversive. TeeTylerToe ( talk) 19:57, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
First off, TeeTylerToe, you might want to read WP:TLDR. More importantly, I removed this entry from WP:3O because, frankly, you said yourself that multiple editors are involved; and 3O is for disputes between only two editors (also, why did you even list this at 3O when above you said that you are against that forum?). On that same note, I also wouldn't advise listing this at WP:DRN because it appears that this issue had been resolved before you even got involved, so this is thus borderline pointy judgment. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 19:19, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article's title be changed to reflect the merger between Lockheed Martin and Fairchild Republic? It would be more accurate. Jak474 ( talk) 22:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Following the decision in 1992 to keep the A-10 in service, should it be "a" decision instead of "the"? Furthermore, who made the decision? Shouldn't there be a bit more additional background info about the decision???-- Now wiki ( talk) 18:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The lead states that the A-10 engages armored vehicles and tanks. That sounds like a euphemism. WP:MOS, in "Words to watch", at WP:EUPHEMISM says the "...word died is neutral and accurate; avoid euphemisms such as passed away...civilian casualties should not be masked as collateral damage." Based on my reading of the article, it seems the A-10 fires the autocannon or missiles or uses bombs against armored vehicles and tanks. OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 23:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The current version of the article cites a maximum takeoff weight of 51,000 pounds, which is supported by the af.mil Fact sheet. However, USAF TO 1A-10C-1 (2 April 2012, Change 10) (The A-10C flight manual) states on page 5-12 (Section V, Operating Limitations, Weight Limitations):
"The maximum gross weight for towing, taxiing, takeoff, and landing is 46,000 pounds."
AND:
"The maximum in-flight gross weight is 51,000 pounds."
Which should be reflected in the article? M16A3NoRecoilHax ( talk) 07:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Another editor ( Fnlayson) reverted an edit ( diff) I made to the article's short description, explaining that "text [was] removed without clear reason." Fnlayson is correct. I apologize for not providing an explanation. I created this section to (belatedly) explain my reasoning.
I edited the short description to (a) shorten the description from 72 characters to 49; and (b) remove duplicative information, viz., "Fairchild Republic". My reasoning is based on the guidance contained in Wikipedia:Short description#Content. Short descriptions are in some ways counterintuitive. I have found myself reviewing that Content section several times to make sure I'm writing a decent short description. Here are a few of the points from the Content section that are relevant to the present discussion:
I defer to other editors re: whether or not the current short description should be changed. // Btw, I think the gist of the current short description is one of the best I've seen: "single-seat, twin turbofan engine attack aircraft". - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I am a man. The traditional male pronouns are fine.) 20:06, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
The article states: "The armor has been tested to withstand strikes from 23 mm cannon fire and some strikes from 57 mm rounds.[60][64]". Source 60 is "Donald and March 2004, p. 18" and source 64 is "Jenkins 1998, pp. 47, 49". Why aren't the titles of the books given? Does anyone know the titles of the books in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.5.172 ( talk) 02:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Howdy, casual observer here, wondering if any of the cited sources on the A-10 discuss the Cessna A-37 Dragonfly. My understanding—from personal connections and casual reading, definitely not WP:RS—is that the USAF pursued the A-37 largely as an interim stopgap measure to staunch A-1 attrition and address shortcomings in the A-1's capabilities until a better aircraft (the A-10) could be developed, and in this respect, the A-10 also replaced the A-37 in addition to the A-1. I realize that the A-10 is a much more capable aircraft designed with a far greater emphasis on survivability than the A-37, but as I understand it, the Super Tweet was never the aircraft the USAF really wanted—it was the aircraft they could get cheap and in large numbers, right away, and there was a war on. Seems to me that this topic would be a worthy addition to the article and I'm surprised it's not addressed already. Pardon my ramblings. Carguychris ( talk) 21:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I suppose I should have explained my reasons for editing the previously added information first. My reasons for the edit was because the part about Pierre Sprey's involvement in the A-10's development was outdated since it was added in 2007 ( /info/en/?search=Talk:Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II/Archive_2#Pierre_Sprey) and more information has since come out that made Sprey's claims questionable and contradictory. I apologize for not notifying anyone that I was editing the article and I should have discussed it first. AardvarkSleuth ( talk) 07:54, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed several others have already attempted to make this change but it was been revoked on the grounds that the admins are under the impression the Wiki page is being troll bombed, or words to that effect.
I wish to dispute the mentions of Pierre Sprey used in the section "A-X Program". Pierre Sprey is one of the more infamous members of the "Fighter Plane Mafia" a group with a reputation for inserting themselves into various historical events regarding the development of United States Military Aviation projects between the 19050's and 1980's for media attention. There is no historical evidence that Pierre Sprey was ever involved in the A-X program, he was not a member of Fairchild's branch of Republic Aviation at Long Island who designed the A-10, and at the time the A-10 was being conceived Sprey had already left the Pentagon in order to pursue a career as a record producer. The A-10's lead designer was Alexander Kartveli [1].
The sources currently cited in the article's current form that make the claim of Sprey's involvement are the Biography of John Boyd, one of Sprey's best friends and fellow member of the Fighter Plane Mafia, and the book by James Burton "Pentagon Wars" a book who's factual accuracy was debunked over 20 years ago, [2] and is now largely considered a work of fiction. These sources have no historical value and would not be accepted in any other serious publication.
I request that these citations be noted, that the article either remove references to Sprey's involvement and the sources which claim so, or that the dispute be acknowledged in a separate section of the article.
Malcious ( talk) 14:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
References
I second this, as there is no proper citation, rather a simple "Coram 2004", with no link. 100.36.155.231 ( talk) 23:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
NoReformers ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki), SneakyStephano ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki), 50.90.211.22, and perhaps Malcious ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) all appear to be the same person, so I don't know that it qualfies as "a lot of attention". The article history and this section bears the link, which is just too coincidental. As to the merits, I don't know, I'm a bit more concerned with the monkey business. {{ checkuser needed}}. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Okay so I would like to offer a suggestion however I'm not sure if I have this whole story correct so here's my best summary and someone can let me know if I got it right.
So about 7 months ago the YouTuber lazerpig known for his other critiques of the fighter Mafia members published two videos about the a-10 disputing the claims that spray was ever involved in the a-10 program. Currently the only proof that he ever was is from books about another member of the group who claimed spray was involved in the basic requirements set out for the a-10 not designing the aircraft as a whole.
If this is all correct the answer is quite simple. Spray didn't design the a-10 the aircraft development team and Fairchild did, then built there design and submitted it to the air force for testing, that's how aircraft procurement works. Now if spray wrote the requirements set out for the program his name should be referenced on the proposals submitted to every company that decided to enter the program. If there is no proof he ever set the specifications for the aircraft then there should be no argument. The proper documentation should be able to be requested from whichever aircraft manufacturer took over the design team when Fairchild was bought out. Or a freedom of information request could be made looking for the original Fairchild design proposal and the documents that layed out the requirements for competitors in the program Tankophiliac ( talk) 15:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
As of now, part of the development section of this article has been made a hidden comment on the basis that claims made by the late Pierre Sprey are under greater scrutiny following public discussion of his falsification of involvement in previous projects. Unless a source independent from Boyd can substantiate the claims, the reference is based on hearsay statements from an individual known for exaggeration and falsification and will be removed soon. To break seriousness for a moment, the bit about "German WWII veterans" really is the icing on the embellishment cake. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 04:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The Sprey text should be removed or heavily re-written based on other sources, imo. The Campbell Warthog book (see article Biblio) says he became one of the Whiz Kids and helped write/revise the requirements spec for A-X program. -Fnlayson ( talk) 16:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Sprey's role in the committee which put fort the requirements for the program is referenced elsewhere and seems undisputed, except by those invested enough to dispute Sprey's involvement wholesale. Whatever occurs with references to Sprey's purportedly more material role, references to his role in the aforementioned committee shouldn't be expunged, although perhaps more citations should be added for this apart from Boyd. Zusty001 ( talk) 00:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Pbritti: I should apologise; Lt. Gen. Agan's interview with Neufeld does not mention Sprey by name. Agan was a figure in the F-X program, and a proponent of single-role fighters. What I quoted above was "The Revolt of the Majors"'s own words, derived from an interview with Sprey. I'm not sure if I heard the quote improperly attributed somewhere else or if was purely my own mistake. I retract a large portion of what I said. The exception to this retraction is that Sprey's involvement, even if exaggerated in media, in other sources, and even by himself, isn't really deniable, and shouldn't be eliminated wholly from the article. (Somewhat related to what I said about contrary claims being 'unjustifiably conspiratorial' is that the Sprey and Agan interviews by Neufeld were conducted within two years of each other, with the other two Neufeld interviews cited in "Revolt" being with Calvin Hargis of the Department for Development, and Gen. Roger Rhodarmer, the head of the F-X program, presumably as a series of USAF interviews on that aforementioned program); "The Revolt of the Majors" may still be relevant for citation, as well. Zusty001 ( talk) 23:19, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Checking to see if I am shadowbanned. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Pbritti: It appears I am not. I was unable to reply to you yesterday. "...nearly every independently verifiable source dismisses them." Putting aside what may be called an 'independently verifiable source' for these purposes, I disagree. The problem, given that there is one, is the simple lack of sources that give anything resembling a list of persons involved in the A-X and F-X programs. Numerous sources involving known U.S. Air Force and general U.S. military affiliated persons tell of Sprey's *involvement* in the program, if only to discredit what they purport to be his exaggerations of his own importance. I don't see an attempt to discredit this entirely as good grounds to expunge his name. If I were to make a suggestion, and hopefully a moderate one, it would be that the currently hidden portion should be revised, adding clarification and perhaps more information on these complications, as well as additional information on the development in general; Or, if needed, it should be deleted and rewritten, without expunging all mention of Sprey. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Ahunt: Was unable to edit on this talk page, as well as other pages, yesterday. Edit would publish and then simply not show up anywhere. I'm unsure why. Zusty001 ( talk) 03:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I propose the section on GAU-8 describing it being built specifically for “anti-tank” operation contain a disclaimer that the weapon was only effective at penetrating side and rear armor of post-war tanks (such as T-55) when it came out.
The weapon was essentially obsolete at the anti-tank role for any contemporary armor. The Maverick missile was always intended to be its primary anti-tank weapon and this has been borne out in practice. DietDrPhil ( talk) 18:14, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeah I agree there should be saction — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.159.113.195 ( talk) 03:48, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
There have been a couple edits to insert the word "bean" somewhere into this page. While I don't know the origin of it, my best guess is that there's some sort of inside joke going on. If it increases, I might ask for a week of increased protection. Unrelated, but if anyone knows the context for the joke, please share it with me on my talk page (I could use a laugh). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 17:57, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If you all are so invested in preserving this page for some strange reason then why not use all the time to make it more readable and informative. Let alone the seriously lack of correct citations or flat out missing sources. I was hoping to be able to confirm whether or not this really was the only plane ever designed for CAS, Searching the internet always leads back here and I can't find a source in any of the links on this page. If it exists please send it to me I need to know this for my homework. If this cannot be provided then why is this still in the article. This is supposed to be a encyclopedic reference source and I suspect there is something else going on here. I don't understand Wikipedia politics or politics in general. Just give me a source or page number or video link or interview or ISBN number or a isle number in the library of congress. I have no interest in Wikipedia editing, I only came here to learn about the A-10. When I was disappointed by the underwhelming state of this article I figured I could help make it easier for the next guy. Had I know this was some sort of popular relevant or even recent page I would not have gotten involved. Maybe I just underestimate the number of people just watching for wiki edits or whatevere but I can't help but suggest that some of you spend that time improving this page for actually users to come and find information on. Thank You for you time and effort on wikipedia in general. Just remember what it is all about. Please on write things that are true. This isn't reddit. -- Ross — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.103.4 ( talk) 15:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)