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There has been a dispute on this article about the inclusion of The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard by James G. Burton as a source. One editor even called the source "a Sprey propaganda piece". I vaguely remember a discussion or dispute regarding Sprey in the past. Is there a consensus on Sprey's involvement in the A-10 program? - ZLEA T\ C 12:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
In the service of achieving a consensus, consider this my support for the exclusion of Sprey as a source in this article and the exclusion of any non-independent sources that suggest he was intimately involved in the A-10's development (so, the current article). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Putting the Boyd book through the RSN circuit might actually be a great move. Would allow us to more definitively deal with this more than year old issue. Had to remove a lot of anti-Sprey POVing from his article just now. A broader community view might really stabilize things. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 22:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
There seems to be a discrepancy between this article and the article for it's armament.
From this article: "The gun's 5-foot, 11.5-inch (1.816 m) ammunition drum can hold up to 1,350 rounds of 30 mm ammunition, but generally holds 1,174 rounds."
From GAU-8 Avenger: "The magazine can hold 1,174 rounds, although 1,150 is the typical load-out."
Not sure how to address this discrepancy. Thoughts? Gnomatique ( talk) 01:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The gun subsystem consists of a seven-barrel GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling gun and a double-ended linkless feed system with capacity up to 1,350 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. Most aircraft have a helix installed in the drum assembly which limits the system capacity to 1,174 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. [1]
The gun subsystem consists of a seven-barrel GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling gun and a double-ended linkless feed system with a capacity up to 1,174 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. [2]
Airmen from the 51st Munitions Squadron preload shop ensure the proper load-out of 1,150 rounds in each magazine. [3]
A fully loaded A-10 can carry 2,000-pound and 500-pound joint direct attack munitions, or JDAMs, bombs; laser-guided JDAMs; the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground tactical missile; and, McCarthy said, "don't ever forget the [30-millimeter GAU-8/A Avenger] gun with 1,150 rounds -- what that aircraft was built around." [4]
References
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Fairchild Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II_-_32156159151.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for February 24, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-02-24. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! — Amakuru ( talk) 13:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II is a single-seat twin-turbofan attack aircraft developed by Fairchild Republic for the United States Air Force. Nicknamed the Warthog, it has been in service since 1976, and is named for the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, a World War II–era fighter-bomber. The A-10 was designed to provide close air support to ground troops by attacking armored vehicles, tanks, and other enemy ground forces, with a secondary mission of forward air control, which involves directing other aircraft in attacks on ground targets. This A-10, assigned to 74th Fighter Squadron, was photographed in 2011 flying over Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Photograph credit: William Greer
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The article says "The A-1 Skyraider also had poor firepower." An attack plane with poor firepower? What did it use to attack? This calls out for more explanation.
Also, while I'm typing, where did the nickname "Warthog" come from? I had long understood it to be a reference to the A-10's ungainly appearance, but haven't seen a reliable source for any explanation. Piledhigheranddeeper ( talk) 14:52, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Usually in Wikipedia articles about thing known by multiple names, all the names are near the top and in bold. Should the same thing be done for "Warthog" and "Hog" here? CommandProMC ( talk) 12:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Is the publication TO 1A-10C-1 the correct and reasonable current flight manual for the A-10C? As found here https://kupdf.net/download/t-o-1a-10c-1-flight-manual-usaf-series-a-10c-2012_58f4d870dc0d60a105da981b_pdf Or is this source not authoritative? Thanks. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:C100:2D56:65E4:1309:43E5:AB92 ( talk) 02:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
I think there's a problem with this text "The A-10 has been involved in killing ten U.S. troops in friendly-fire over four incidents between 2001 and 2015 and 35 Afghan civilians from 2010 to 2015, more than any other U.S. military aircraft; these incidents have been assessed as "inconclusive and statistically insignificant" in terms of the plane's capability.[125]" in the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and recent deployments section. For one, it's vague. What does "more than any other US military aircraft" refer to? To the killing of Afghan civilians? Specifically Afghan ones? But, then, the timeframe, why that timeframe? Why is that inserted into this article? For instance just one year earlier, in '09, a B-1 killed 97 civilians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
For instance, in '03 a F-14 killed 22 allied troops. Why is this information presented in such a narrow way completely stripped of it's context? Presumably this is information that was released by the AF at a time when, I'm sure, coincidentally, the AF was campaigning for the A-10 to be withdrawn from service? And at that time, the AF just happened to release information specifically tailored to put the A-10 in the worst possible light? So why is it being presented in this article with no context, no analysis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Was there something unique about the A-10 in these instances? Was there some kind of flaw? Was there something special or interesting about the four friendly fire incidents or the incidents where A-10s killed Afghan civilians? Was there something unique about how the A-10 was employed in Afghanistan? Perhaps relating to the altitude, or the terrain of the country, maybe a language issue, something relating specifically to that mission? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Also, what the heck does the following sentence, "These incidents have been assessed as "inconclusive and statistically insignificant" in terms of the plane's capability." mean? Collateral damage issues "assessed" as being "inconclusive and insignificant" "in terms of the planes capability"... What does that mean? What is meant by "in terms of the planes capability"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
We're here to build an article that is informative regarding the subject. I don't see where out of context numbers regarding civilian and friendly deaths is informative about the subject. IMO it's the opposite. Such numbers would be heavily or primarily determined by the amount of missions performed and the nature of them (importantly close air support) ...that would be a good place to start as context info to avoid being misleading from being taken out of context. North8000 ( talk) 18:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I may have missed it but this article doesn't seem to cover what missions/roles the A-10 fills, e.g. combat search and rescue, forward air controller (airborne), strike control and reconnaissance, counter air and counter sea, close air support, special operations support (which are primary missions, which secondary?). Also the article doesn't seem to have good coverage of the OA/10, though I don't know the exact details about the OA/10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
In the article it is said that F-35 replacement of A-10s is contentious "both within the USAF and political circles," yet there seems to be no compelling reason to believe that the USAF in itself has any significant opposition to its own attempts to retire the Warthog. 75.132.237.67 ( talk) 20:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
the citation (which contradicts all of the other citations, including the design of the A-10 and its gun to kill tanks, on this page) that the A-10 was "exclusively designed for Close Air Support" comes from a 2016 book that doesn't cite its sources and is written by a guy whose entire other archive is WWII history. Can this be deleted since it's clearly wrong (as contradicted by the other citations on the page) and is just generally a bad citation? 174.67.177.185 ( talk) 18:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
A-1 losses to enemy fire in Vietnam were 256, not 266.
Also it is incorrect that most losses were to small arms fire. It would be nearly impossible to down a Skyraider with small arms fire. It could be correct to say "ground fire," which in Vietnam ranged from twin 14.5mm heavy machineguns, 37mm, and larger gun batteries, and SAMs. Practically speaking, even a 14.5mm would have a tough time with a Skyraider.
256 USAF and Navy A-1s were lost to groundfire, and another 10 to other causes. The Vietnamese Air Force lost a total of 255. This latter number should be noted in the article. Sciacchitano ( talk) 11:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
in specifications it states the max takeoff weight is 46,000 lb (20,865 kg), but in the CAS mission the weight is stated as 47,094 lb (21,361 kg). is this intended or a mistake? Lighningknight134 ( talk) 00:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
in the description of the aircraft under the picture it says introduced october 1977 but in the first paragraph it says introduced 1976 Meat is the best ( talk) 09:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
What is the point of describing the supported forces as "friendly"? Is there someone who might get confused and think an air force is providing close air support to enemy troops? This does not improve clarity, it is simply childish writing. Kentucky Rain24 ( talk) 17:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Floweryis perhaps a flowery way of describing clear phrasing. Wikipedia is not written for experts, so some accommodation for the unacquainted reader is worthwhile. As you are a newer editor, I encourage you to review Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 19:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4 |
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
There has been a dispute on this article about the inclusion of The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard by James G. Burton as a source. One editor even called the source "a Sprey propaganda piece". I vaguely remember a discussion or dispute regarding Sprey in the past. Is there a consensus on Sprey's involvement in the A-10 program? - ZLEA T\ C 12:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
In the service of achieving a consensus, consider this my support for the exclusion of Sprey as a source in this article and the exclusion of any non-independent sources that suggest he was intimately involved in the A-10's development (so, the current article). ~ Pbritti ( talk) 15:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Putting the Boyd book through the RSN circuit might actually be a great move. Would allow us to more definitively deal with this more than year old issue. Had to remove a lot of anti-Sprey POVing from his article just now. A broader community view might really stabilize things. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 22:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
There seems to be a discrepancy between this article and the article for it's armament.
From this article: "The gun's 5-foot, 11.5-inch (1.816 m) ammunition drum can hold up to 1,350 rounds of 30 mm ammunition, but generally holds 1,174 rounds."
From GAU-8 Avenger: "The magazine can hold 1,174 rounds, although 1,150 is the typical load-out."
Not sure how to address this discrepancy. Thoughts? Gnomatique ( talk) 01:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The gun subsystem consists of a seven-barrel GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling gun and a double-ended linkless feed system with capacity up to 1,350 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. Most aircraft have a helix installed in the drum assembly which limits the system capacity to 1,174 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. [1]
The gun subsystem consists of a seven-barrel GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling gun and a double-ended linkless feed system with a capacity up to 1,174 rounds of percussion primed ammunition. [2]
Airmen from the 51st Munitions Squadron preload shop ensure the proper load-out of 1,150 rounds in each magazine. [3]
A fully loaded A-10 can carry 2,000-pound and 500-pound joint direct attack munitions, or JDAMs, bombs; laser-guided JDAMs; the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground tactical missile; and, McCarthy said, "don't ever forget the [30-millimeter GAU-8/A Avenger] gun with 1,150 rounds -- what that aircraft was built around." [4]
References
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Fairchild Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II_-_32156159151.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for February 24, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-02-24. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! — Amakuru ( talk) 13:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II is a single-seat twin-turbofan attack aircraft developed by Fairchild Republic for the United States Air Force. Nicknamed the Warthog, it has been in service since 1976, and is named for the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, a World War II–era fighter-bomber. The A-10 was designed to provide close air support to ground troops by attacking armored vehicles, tanks, and other enemy ground forces, with a secondary mission of forward air control, which involves directing other aircraft in attacks on ground targets. This A-10, assigned to 74th Fighter Squadron, was photographed in 2011 flying over Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Photograph credit: William Greer
Recently featured:
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The article says "The A-1 Skyraider also had poor firepower." An attack plane with poor firepower? What did it use to attack? This calls out for more explanation.
Also, while I'm typing, where did the nickname "Warthog" come from? I had long understood it to be a reference to the A-10's ungainly appearance, but haven't seen a reliable source for any explanation. Piledhigheranddeeper ( talk) 14:52, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Usually in Wikipedia articles about thing known by multiple names, all the names are near the top and in bold. Should the same thing be done for "Warthog" and "Hog" here? CommandProMC ( talk) 12:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Is the publication TO 1A-10C-1 the correct and reasonable current flight manual for the A-10C? As found here https://kupdf.net/download/t-o-1a-10c-1-flight-manual-usaf-series-a-10c-2012_58f4d870dc0d60a105da981b_pdf Or is this source not authoritative? Thanks. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:C100:2D56:65E4:1309:43E5:AB92 ( talk) 02:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
I think there's a problem with this text "The A-10 has been involved in killing ten U.S. troops in friendly-fire over four incidents between 2001 and 2015 and 35 Afghan civilians from 2010 to 2015, more than any other U.S. military aircraft; these incidents have been assessed as "inconclusive and statistically insignificant" in terms of the plane's capability.[125]" in the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and recent deployments section. For one, it's vague. What does "more than any other US military aircraft" refer to? To the killing of Afghan civilians? Specifically Afghan ones? But, then, the timeframe, why that timeframe? Why is that inserted into this article? For instance just one year earlier, in '09, a B-1 killed 97 civilians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
For instance, in '03 a F-14 killed 22 allied troops. Why is this information presented in such a narrow way completely stripped of it's context? Presumably this is information that was released by the AF at a time when, I'm sure, coincidentally, the AF was campaigning for the A-10 to be withdrawn from service? And at that time, the AF just happened to release information specifically tailored to put the A-10 in the worst possible light? So why is it being presented in this article with no context, no analysis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Was there something unique about the A-10 in these instances? Was there some kind of flaw? Was there something special or interesting about the four friendly fire incidents or the incidents where A-10s killed Afghan civilians? Was there something unique about how the A-10 was employed in Afghanistan? Perhaps relating to the altitude, or the terrain of the country, maybe a language issue, something relating specifically to that mission? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Also, what the heck does the following sentence, "These incidents have been assessed as "inconclusive and statistically insignificant" in terms of the plane's capability." mean? Collateral damage issues "assessed" as being "inconclusive and insignificant" "in terms of the planes capability"... What does that mean? What is meant by "in terms of the planes capability"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
We're here to build an article that is informative regarding the subject. I don't see where out of context numbers regarding civilian and friendly deaths is informative about the subject. IMO it's the opposite. Such numbers would be heavily or primarily determined by the amount of missions performed and the nature of them (importantly close air support) ...that would be a good place to start as context info to avoid being misleading from being taken out of context. North8000 ( talk) 18:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I may have missed it but this article doesn't seem to cover what missions/roles the A-10 fills, e.g. combat search and rescue, forward air controller (airborne), strike control and reconnaissance, counter air and counter sea, close air support, special operations support (which are primary missions, which secondary?). Also the article doesn't seem to have good coverage of the OA/10, though I don't know the exact details about the OA/10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanccr ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
In the article it is said that F-35 replacement of A-10s is contentious "both within the USAF and political circles," yet there seems to be no compelling reason to believe that the USAF in itself has any significant opposition to its own attempts to retire the Warthog. 75.132.237.67 ( talk) 20:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
the citation (which contradicts all of the other citations, including the design of the A-10 and its gun to kill tanks, on this page) that the A-10 was "exclusively designed for Close Air Support" comes from a 2016 book that doesn't cite its sources and is written by a guy whose entire other archive is WWII history. Can this be deleted since it's clearly wrong (as contradicted by the other citations on the page) and is just generally a bad citation? 174.67.177.185 ( talk) 18:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
A-1 losses to enemy fire in Vietnam were 256, not 266.
Also it is incorrect that most losses were to small arms fire. It would be nearly impossible to down a Skyraider with small arms fire. It could be correct to say "ground fire," which in Vietnam ranged from twin 14.5mm heavy machineguns, 37mm, and larger gun batteries, and SAMs. Practically speaking, even a 14.5mm would have a tough time with a Skyraider.
256 USAF and Navy A-1s were lost to groundfire, and another 10 to other causes. The Vietnamese Air Force lost a total of 255. This latter number should be noted in the article. Sciacchitano ( talk) 11:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
in specifications it states the max takeoff weight is 46,000 lb (20,865 kg), but in the CAS mission the weight is stated as 47,094 lb (21,361 kg). is this intended or a mistake? Lighningknight134 ( talk) 00:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
in the description of the aircraft under the picture it says introduced october 1977 but in the first paragraph it says introduced 1976 Meat is the best ( talk) 09:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
What is the point of describing the supported forces as "friendly"? Is there someone who might get confused and think an air force is providing close air support to enemy troops? This does not improve clarity, it is simply childish writing. Kentucky Rain24 ( talk) 17:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Floweryis perhaps a flowery way of describing clear phrasing. Wikipedia is not written for experts, so some accommodation for the unacquainted reader is worthwhile. As you are a newer editor, I encourage you to review Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable. ~ Pbritti ( talk) 19:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)