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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The result of the move request was: not moved I realize that this will likely be a controversial close, since the result was either slightly favouring moving numerically or tied depending on how you count noses, but consensus is not simply a nose count, and strength of arguments matter. Those opposing raised the strongest point that the question of the name should be based on what the common name is in English language sourcing, and provided sourcing to show that it was still at the old name, even if this was not the official name. While it may be possible that the usage has changed in Romanian, it is up to those supporting a move to the official name to demonstrate that usage in the English-language has changed, and that has not been done here. Because of this, the arguments opposing a name change hold significantly more weight than those based on primary sourcing in Romanian. This is enough in my reading of the relevant English Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and naming conventions to push this from a no consensus result to a result of not moved. TonyBallioni ( talk) 22:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FC FCSB – There is a final court decision regarding the name of the club. This page should be moved to reflect the new name of the club, Fotbal Club FCSB Gunnlaugson ( talk) 08:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 15:00, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It's clear that this is dispute isn't going to go away any time soon, particularly since the courts say FCSB is not Steaua, but UEFA and FRF say that they are a continuation of the same record and honours, although another entity attached to the owners of the name now exists to challenge this.
I think it would be beneficial, at least for now since various proceedings are still ongoing, for a new FCSB article to be created covering the period from 2003, leaving the FC Steaua article to cover the historic period up to that point, where I believe everyone is in agreement that it was just one club. Any links for 1947—2002 would go to the historic Steaua article and anything from the FCSB years would point to there. That club can't legally call itself Steaua București and are not referred to by that name by UEFA so it's muddying the waters to still have the article named as such when referring to the current team, although it is the correct term to be used in a historic context - splitting up the timeline would largely resolve that, even though FCSB did refer to themselves as Steaua until recently. Both the FCSB article and the CSA 2017 article could refer extensively to the history and honours of old Steaua and could even say they both started in 1947 and claim the honours on both their articles, but it would be clear that many of these factors were disputed.
I realise there is an argument that CSA 2017 is just 'reawakened' Steaua rather than restarted altogether, but since there was a 14 year gap between the FCSB era and the CSA relaunch in a lower division this year, I definitely feel it's justified for those articles to be separated. But equally, it is clear that FCSB will no longer be allowed to call themselves Steaua going forward, so I think it would also be fair to have another article for them. And that would leave all the old references and links and associated pages with the initial neutral 'FC Steaua București' article (here), which was the accurate name for the club when it comes won those disputed trophies, and means less tidying up to be done.
This is just a suggestion of course, but having seen the seemingly endless problems between editors of attributing honours to teams and deciding what name to be used, this might be a reasonable compromise solution (which could still be changed at a later time of course). Crowsus ( talk) 20:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
– This would be a really bad idea. It would send a wrong message, that there was, at some point, a "split" inside the football club and, consequently, two football clubs emerged from one. There was no such split. The football club totally separated from the sports club (CSA). The fact that the sports club (CSA) re-engaged in football activities starting with 2017 does not imply that there was ever a split similar to what you're mentioning. It merely reflects the fact that CSA created a NEW TEAM, established in 2017 in the highest league they were eligible to register as a new football entity.
– Moreover, to tell a Steaua supporter that the team he/she loves retroactively split 20 years ago (by the way, the separation from the sports club happened in 1998) because some brand and name divergences that were settled in court just recently...it's not only wrong, it's plainly absurd. One can't just roll back history like that.
– Adding to that, no Steaua fan (be it FCSB fan or CSA fan) would ever support the idea that the football club he/she loves has to split its honors with another entity.
– At this point. the reasonable solution should be leaving things as it is + adding more clarity by specifying that FCSB is "the club formerly known as FC Steaua Bucharest" Taras bulba 47 ( talk) 09:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Tentative support – If the government and league have differing positions, and Wikipedians disagree, then the allocation of history seems to be a matter of opinion rather than fact. How about splitting the history into a subarticle rather than a separate topic, in the same way that Bucharest#Economy links to Main article: Economy of Bucharest? Both current clubs can then have a short history section stating "this club claims a history dating from 1947, disputed by other club, and here's a link to that history". Certes ( talk) 11:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Support - Before going forward with the discussion, people need to understand a few things. First, the team called FC Steaua Bucharest doesn't exist. In fact, it never existed. Becali's team used the name illegally. The full name of the Steaua Bucharest team known throughout the world is Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua Bucuresti (translated to The Army's Sports Club Steaua Bucharest). The team that won the Champions League in 1986 was called Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua Bucharest. The part with "The Army's Sports Club" is usually not used, as supporters prefer to call the team Steaua. In fact, when talking about the rugby team, or the polo team or any other department, the press also refers to them as Steaua Bucharest, not CSA or any other name, as some have suggested. As I said earlier, Becali's football team used the Steaua name illegally since its founding, in 2003. Had it done things the right way, the team would have never used the name Steaua in the first place. Had this happened, there would now be no confusion as to which team is which. But, because Becali is a corrupt politician, who has the media in his pocket, he continues to spread lies and to create confusion. Fotbal Club Fcsb was founded in 2003,as its official documents show. It may claim to own the Steaua honours, but it can't prove this.What UEFA and the Romanian Football Federation post on their websites doesn't count either, since it's not an official position of the two entities. UEFA could just as well paste the honours of FC Barcelona to the FC Fcsb page. That would not mean that FC Fcsb is FC Barcelona. So, I am for a split. FC Fcsb's life started in 2003, when, through some machinations, Becali managed to take Steaua's place in the first division. With the help of some corrupt officials inside the Steaua club, he managed to keep the club from reactivating its football department. And that's what happened until a few years ago, when all the nasty stuff came out. Again. The club's own documents show that FC Fcsb was founded in 2003. It does not own the Steaua brand, name, history or honours, since Becali admitted that he never conducted any business with the Steaua club. So please split the information and stop the lies. I am a supporter of Steaua Bucharest and I am sick and tired to be considered a fan of FC Fcsb.-
TPTB (
talk) 14:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment @ TPTB - I gave up answering to you, but I can't avoid it now. You're absolutely incorigible! You say "FC Steaua Bucharest doesn't exist. In fact, it never existed." WHAT ?!?!?!? Did you even take a look at the 1986 Champions' Cup and the names listed there? Yes, it says FC Steaua Bucuresti!!! link here: https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22894319_1656326861090902_1807694588951076701_n.jpg?oh=b20a1e6080ea7a6499fb53b6086ab4f5&oe=5A73E58F — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.86.113.226 ( talk) 15:33, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment - The deal is this, people. FC Fcsb is currently involved in several lawsuits with Steaua, and it's most definitely going to lose them all. One lawsuit will make the team change its name again, because Becali, the team's shadow owner, said that Fcsb comes from FC Steaua Bucharest. And as I said earlier, his team is not allowed to use that name. In another lawsuit, Steaua is asking for about 37 million euros in reparations for the 10+ years when FC Fcsb used the Steaua name and brand illegally. Now, the sum may be even larger than 37 million, but even if it's 10 million, Becali won't be able to afford it. At that point, he's going to file for bankruptcy and the FC Fcsb wikipedia page will probably stop its existence there. - TPTB ( talk) 14:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for comments. My wish is certainly not to annoy or upset Steaua supporters of either 'type'. I don't want you to lose your history and hopefully this matter will be resolved soon somehow. Maybe even through the lawsuits above.
@ 8Dodo8: I think you may have been wishing to Oppose rather than just comment since you agreed with the oppose vote above?
@ Taras bulba 47: I fully agree that the continuity of FC Steaua into FCSB, supported by UEFA etc, presents a very strong case for it being the same club without interruption. And prior to this year, the legal status didn't really matter as it was just a naming issue so there was no problem. But now it's not as simple as just saying 'FCSB is Steaua' when there is a second team also claiming to be Steaua and showing the honours on its website. Unfortunately, the very scenario you say has never occurred, "two football clubs emerged from one", has actually happened now with both asserting that they are the true club. The fact that the CSA article had to be locked as a result of edit warring demonstrates the strength of feeling on both sides, as well as the fact that both claims have some merit, as explained from the CSA side by User:TPTB and others. That claim obviously comes from the court result which can't just be disregarded, and poses the question: if the current entity has no legal claim to be the same as that which existed before 2003 (hence the reason for suggesting that as a 'start date'), can a new team from the original owners lay claim to trophies won by the historic team they operated? It's an interesting argument, but as I've said, I realise it runs counter to the logic applied by UEFA.
@ Amakuru: I wasn't consciously trying to circumvent the renaming issue, but I suppose that is would have been the result. The big problem is, I can't think of many articles on Wikipedia where the subject of the article is currently legally not permitted to refer to themselves by their common name, which is the title of their article. Not sure how much weight that carries in reality. I think I will go to onto relevant articles and request that they show something like FCSB (Steaua) which would reflect both the legal name and the common name. We'll see how that goes....
Instead, my new idea is to improve the section of the History of Steaua article relating to the events of the recent past and link back to this as a point of reference in the two club articles, wherever relevant. There is a bit on there already but I think it could be expanded and referenced further. I would encourage others to do likewise, as long as the information adheres to the guidelines on editorialising, neutrality, bias, weight etc. I'm confident that between us we can explain both sides of the argument in a fair manner in that setting. Crowsus ( talk) 15:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@ TPTB: but your source says that the FRF recognises FCSB as Steaua, and for the moment at least the UEFA website shows the full list of honours with FCSB, while of course both the FCSB site and the CSA site show their own club as winners of the relevant titles, so it is correct to refer to the these as disputed and mention the other entity claiming them on each article.
If and when it is properly decided that CSA owns the 21 titles, big cup etc and FRF makes the effort to correct UEFA and forces FCSB to remove their claim from their records, then I and all fair-minded editors on here will be very quick to fix Wikipedia to that effect. But at the moment I'm afraid it's all still uncertain, even if some of that may be due to incompetent beurocracy whereby FCSB are still claiming things they are not allowed to and nobody is stopping them (the illegal use of the name is pretty blatant!). Seems like the blame for not enforcing that, as well as providing the info to UEFA, lies with the FRF?
But, inaccurate as it may be, the official sites of UEFA and FRF carry more weight than your counter allegations, which have been mostly unsourced or articles of hearsay from tabloid journalism (we heard X person said Y to Z company in 2004). It may well all be true and you have my sympathy that we can't just take your word for it at present because what you have said makes a good bit of sense to me, but you must see that what's in writing on the majority of official sources at present favours the other side of the argument.
Are there any good sources (in English preferably, but that might be wishful thinking) for the ongoing court cases for the dispute? And when is the outcome likely to be known? Thanks in advance. Crowsus ( talk) 11:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hello! The page of Steaua Bucuresti has been protected and I can't bring back the correct intro which was removed. It should read "FCSB (Romanian pronunciation: [fet͡ʃeseˌbe]), short for Fotbal Club Steaua București (Romanian pronunciation: [ˈste̯awa bukuˈreʃtʲ]) and colloquially known as simply Steaua,". Also, the "clubname" of the main template should, per WP:COMMONNAME, "Steaua București" instead of "FC FCSB". Any admin who could help with this minor edits please? 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 12:22, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I want to request an admin to replace all „FCSB” in the page content with „Steaua București” because that is the real name of this club.In all the Europe if you ask somebody who is FCSB he will be confused.But if you ask about Steaua București he will surely know.FCSB is an acronym,exactly like BVB(Borussia Dortmund),ASSE(AS Saint Etienne) or FCB(FC Barcelona).There is no other „Steaua” in Romania,therefore I see no reason to refuse changing FCSB into Steaua in this article.At this moment,I consider the article a disinformation to its readers.And also,Wikipedia says that is a free encyclopedia,so the decision to fully protect this page does not match with that „free” term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrizzlyBear2002 ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The Romanian Football League has recently issued a statement saying that a club's records and history are closely tied to its brand. They did this for Universitatea Craiova, a team which underwent the same ordeal as Steaua. It was replaced by another team in the 90s, that team claimed it was the real Universitatea and played in its place until it lost the Universitatea Craiova brand in the court of law. After the real owners of the brand won the lawsuit, they reactivated the football team and now it is recognized as the real Universitatea. The same thing happened to Steaua. You can see the press release here> https://lpf.ro/noutati/informare-cu-privire-la-palmaresul-cs-u-craiova/164 As a result, I ask that the information on this page be updated to include the correct information. FC Fcsb was not founded in 1947, but in 2003. It does not own the Steaua name, brand or records. Its records only start in 2003. - TPTB ( talk) 11:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change |trans_title=
to |trans-title=
in all places where it occurs (nine times, I think). The "trans_title" parameter alias has been deprecated. Thank you. –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 03:38, 16 November 2017 (UTC) –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 03:42, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The real name of the club is Fotbal Club FCSB, I don't understand why you changed that in the infobox. The common name of the club is Steaua and that's fine, but at the club name in the infobox we need the official one. 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 10:23, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
What if we replace all "Steaua București" links from other articles with "FCSB" but keep the article name as it is now (FC Steaua București)? The same happens with Inter Milan, as the player pages display "Internazionale". 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 09:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
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Sm00thie23 ( talk) 12:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
At the begining it is mentioned that the team's name is ,,FC Steaua Bucuresti" and that Fcsb is short for ,,Fotball Club Steaua Bucuresti". That's false ! The team's name is ,,FC Fcsb", which is short for ,,Football Club Fcsb". ,,Fcsb" is not an abbreviation. https://lpf.ro/cluburi/fc-fcsb/2 https://i.imgur.com/Uguwhfd.jpg -- Dante4786 ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 05:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București →
FCSB – Lost legal challenge to use the name "Steaua" and its history, not formally or legally called "Steaua" anymore
Abcmaxx (
talk) 13:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
This is not Steaua Bucharest . FCSB use illegal , without any approve from the CSA Steaua Bucharest club , the sign and the name. After 04.05.2018 , the highest Judge Court from Romania , decide that FCSB cannot use the sign and name "STEAUA BUCURESTI" forever. All rights about the name and sign is now at CSA STEAUA BUCHAREST - which is part of National Minister of Defence or Romania. Please change that name , is not real one. Gioko22sud ( talk) 17:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
More than a year after the official name change to "FCSB", the club has been starting replacing "Steaua" from both its Facebook page and official website. 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 19:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED but possibly a tad closer to getting moved than the last RM. We may be getting there. Slowly. Maybe after the 32nd move request we'll get this moved (please don't start more RMs based on this comment). I'd say I'm also learning far more about Romanian football controversies, through closing this business, than I have any real desire to do so.
Anyways, enough rambling, here's an explanation for the result: policy is clear that "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject", ergo half the supports actually count against the move because they themselves acknowledge that "foreign media" sources still use the current name (and there was no citation of other policy-based arguments, only non-policy based arguments of court rulings and romanian-language sources). There was suggestion that english-language sources have changed, but overall consensus was no on that, hence the NOT MOVED result.
On the repeated move requests; more speedy closes on the past moves really would've helped there (hmm, should we create a WP:Speedy not moved criteria?), but it definitely seems necessary to stop the repeated requested moves that don't acknowledge the previous RMs and that court decisions/OFFICIALNAME are not really valid reasons to move. Hence, a moratorium of 6 months on making move requests, but even after that, any move request should lay out clear evidence that English language reliable source usage has changed to "routinely use the new name" FCSB ("routinely use" is based on the wording of NAMECHANGES policy) Basically, it is reasonable to speedy close any move request that doesn't address why the previous move requests failed. ( non-admin closure) Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București →
FCSB – There is a final court decision barring Fotbal Club FCSB from using the name Steaua.
[1] Not moving the page means disregarding a definitive decision of the Romanian courts. On top of that, the club itself has renamed their official website and social media to FCSB (which is the name of the team and not an acronym).
[2] Most Romanian and English-language websites now refer to the club as FCSB (please check the links in Google News for evidence).
[3] It is time to move the page to FCSB.
Gunnlaugson (
talk) 15:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
This will be a difficult one to close IMO, owing to the many arguments above that are in favour of the move but must be discarded: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.
Nominator's rationale, for example, concludes Most Romanian and English-language websites now refer to the club as FCSB which is half valid assuming it's true (the Romanian sources don't count) but is preceded by two sentences of pure irrelevance. It's only in sentence three that any relevant point is made.
The survey is worse. For example, IMO the support !votes by Rhinen and Abcmaxx show no understanding of the matter of issue and should simply be discarded. And there are more similar.
But there are also valid points made in support. Even Abcmaxx makes a claim later in a comment Not even satisfies WP:COMMONNAME any more either, strong sources too which I think means that sources now support a move. But they provide no evidence. That is a valid reason for a move if it's true, so should that be taken as a (weak for lack of evidence) reason to count their !vote? Difficult indeed. Andrewa ( talk) 07:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
References
Following on the latest RM above and also Talk:CSA Steaua București (football)#RfC on this article's content I'm going to take my courage in both hands and make some further comments.
The most difficult one is that there are some obvious language difficulties. On the one hand English Wikipedia exists for all English speakers, not just native speakers. But on the other hand, there's a difficulty when someone with poor English skills disputes the meaning or application of English Wikipedia polices, as seems to be happening regularly here. Again, on the one hand we need to understand that what appears to be wp:IDHT may, in the case of a native speaker of other languages, be a genuine lack of comprehension. On the other hand, that's not a blank cheque. Unintentional disruption remains disruption, and speakers of other languages need to understand that their lack of understanding of policies written in English does not excuse them from following them. Rather they need to exercise restraint in pursuing discussions whenever their lack of English skills may be the real problem. We are volunteers and should try not to waste each others' time.
The other thing is to reiterate that Wikipedia takes no stand on who has the rights to the various names and honours. We should merely report the positions of others. But these are explicit opinions that we report. We don't say, for example, the BBC uses this name so they regard it as the legal or moral property of the club in question. That's interpretation. We just say the BBC uses the name. That's all! We can't guess why they do. That's interpretation. Again, this is a subtle difference and probably lost on many non-native-English-speakers. Andrewa ( talk) 01:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 8 June 2018. The result of the move review was endorse. |
The result of the move request was: See moratorium above; continuing to open new requested moves is disruptive editing; if you have a problem with this or the previous close, go to WP:MRV. Also see WP:NOTVOTE. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 10:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FCSB – The previous discussion was closed prematurely, furthermore it had more support than opposed, so why someone keeps closing the discussion when it's clearly not concluded? Tag should stay till consensus is reached, however long it may be Abcmaxx ( talk) 09:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
This article should be split into Steaua București (1947-2003) and FCSB(/potentially Steaua București (2003-)), leaving a redirect form Steaua București (2017-) to CSA Steaua București. There is no reason this article should be lumped in with the history of the original clubwhen clearly it has lost all association and right to the original. As soon as the moratorium is lifted this is going to get nominated once more for name change and this will avoid that. Also there are numerous precedents in Wikipedia. Abcmaxx ( talk) 15:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
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FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
False article, FCSB is not Steaua Bucuresti, see legal decision 84.232.215.140 ( talk) 15:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Fotbal Club Fcsb is not FC Steaua Bucuresti Ali.1947 ( talk) 00:48, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
According to the Romanian Football Federation site [1], the correct name is: SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA Dante4786 ( talk) 17:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The only thing which could be changed as a result of that ref is the 'Full name' in the infobox. All other references to FC Steaua are valid as that was the past name of the club, which (for now at least) is considered to be the same as the current FCSB so all past tense references to FC Steaua are valid. And it is therefore also correct to have Steaua in the nickname as many people still refer to FCSB using that name, although officially it can no longer can be called that. Crowsus ( talk) 20:31, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 21:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
FCSB → FC FCSB – I'm requesting for an update regarding the title of the page, the information displayed in the infobox and for a modified version of the beginning of the article. The title should be FC FCSB. The full name, which is SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA according to the Romanian Football Federation site (link here: http://frfotbal.ro/echipa.php?id=1285), should be displayed at the beginning of the article AND in the infobox. For a better understanding, I will make a comparison to A.C._Milan's page. The club's full name is Associazione Calcio Milan (S.p.A.), while FCSB's full name is SC Fotbal Club FCSB (SA). The title of the article is A.C. Milan, while the title of FCSB's page should be FC FCSB. The short names are Milan and FCSB. I'm also pointing out that FCSB & CSA Steaua București (football) are not treated in the same manner. CSA Steaua București (football)'s page has the club's full name displayed EVERYWHERE. In the title, in the infobox and in the beginning of the introduction. That's not the case for FCSB's page (or A.C._Milan's page). In conclusion, I am only asking for equal and fair treatment. If that page has the title CSA Steaua București, than this page should have FC Fcsb in the title. Also, if Steaua's wikipedia page begins with the club's full name (Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua București) than so should Fcsb's page start with the full name, namely SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA. And yes, ,,FC Steaua" was the old name of FC Fcsb, but that name was ILLEGALLY used ! Wikipedia should not condone an illegal act. Dante4786 ( talk) 17:38, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
References
|clubname=
was changed only by
Dante4786 in this
Special:Diff/879166320, which have 3RR conducted by users and 3RR back by Dante4786 . So it never validly in the infobox, as it was contervserial and did not even ask for consensus.
Matthew hk (
talk) 11:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
|clubname=
or Arsenal. But RM is wrong venue for the infobox and lead that you made 3RR.
Matthew hk (
talk) 20:02, 20 January 2019 (UTC)![]() | This
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FCSB has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
CM.Catalin ( talk) 08:59, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Steaua a câștigat astăzi, printr-o decizie a Tribunalului București, palmaresul din perioada 1947 - 2004. O decizie ce vine după o sumedenie de amânări, o decizie normala și așteptată de toată suflarea stelista. Solicit corectarea informatiilor pe pagina Wikipedia aferenta FC FCSB SA si informarea corecta a publicului! Acest club fantoma nu are nicio legatura cu STEAUA Bucuresti! Nu mai patati istoria Stelei. https://www.prosport.ro/fotbal-intern/exclusiv-csa-steaua-a-castigat-procesul-pentru-palmares-cu-gigi-becali-decizia-de-ultima-ora-a-tribunalului-18223235?fbclid=IwAR0Urd3KMDogofblukiWUcdxugu5XUxkWw7ZcSRvtoIue4iLCX0CiqKIy70
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. —
Compassionate727 (
T·
C) 19:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
The name is Fotbal Club Fcsb. Ali.1947 ( talk) 00:47, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
The real name is Fotbal Club FCSB. Fotbal Club FCSB is not FC Steaua București. Ali.1947 ( talk) 17:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
The real name is FCSB a.k.a Fotbal Club Steaua București! MikeAlexander11 ( talk) 08:13, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Can you show us any proof that FCSB means Fotbal Club Steaua Bucuresti? Becali only registered these 2 brands at OSIM.. :( Yes, in the left it says Fotbal Club Steaua Bucuresti because he used the name illegally and he changed it to what you can see in the picture. -- CristiCristii ( talk) 18:30, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved ( non-admin closure) JC7V ( talk) 18:03, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FCSB – I am now proposing this move of the article to the correct title FCSB according to policies because it has been protected so that only certain users can move it and because there was a moratorium, so it could not be done before. The result of the last discussion was "no consensus" and all our arguments (and therefore policies) were ignored. The COMMONNAME policy states that we give greater weight to sources published after the name change, so we give greater weight to sources published after May 4 2018, when Steaua Bucharest officially changed name to FCSB. We presented arguments that after that date the Romanian Football Federation, the Romanian Professional Football League, UEFA, FIFA and the club itself use FSCB on their websites and other channels, both in Romanian and in English. Also the vast majority of media in English language uses the new name after that date, as we presented examples. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, so it is irrelevant if some English speaking editors hold some emotional attachment to the old name of the once European champions, we must follow the reliable sources after the name change and the opposing camp presented not one proof that the common name has somehow miraculously stayed at FC Steaua București. Linhart ( talk) 23:00, 11 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 05:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
any move request should lay out clear evidence that English language reliable source usage has changed to "routinely use the new name"and that
it is reasonable to speedy close any move request that doesn't address why the previous move requests failed. It seems to me that the latter condition is met, since the rationale for moving (which says
all our arguments (and therefore policies) were ignoredseems to be explicitly a rehash of the previous move, and shows no sign of understanding why that move failed. I therefore suggest this be speedily closed, unless some actual real substantial *new* evidence, not considered in the last RM, is forthcoming. Thanks — Amakuru ( talk) 10:29, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
The third-best team in Austria last term, they beat Slovan Bratislava and Steaua Bucharest to qualify, the BBC source cited by supporters above is in Pidgin, not English. Iffy★ Chat -- 21:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The continuous misleading that the fraud club SC FC FCSB SA 2003, founded in 2003 by George Becali, has any ties whatsoever with the club CSA Steaua Bucuresti, founded in 1947, apart from a failed identity theft not only spreads false information, but leads to a loss of money and reputation for CSA Steaua Bucuresti.
The court has already decided that FCSB has used the name illegally, and it is also stated in the article.
So why is the fraud club still reffered to as "Steaua"? That makes no sense.
And why is the history and everything else related to CSA Steaua Bucuresti?
SC FC FCSB SA 2003 and CSA Steaua Bucuresti are two different entities, and this has already been settled. Skandura ( talk) 23:09, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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I don't understand why this page exists anymore having so many fake news on it. There have been 20+ trials that just proves this club ( FC Fcsb) is not Steaua Bucharest. They have lost everything, the brand Steaua Bucharest and the palmares, the records of the club Steaua. Also, the owner of FC Fcsb now needs to pay CSA Steaua Bucharest 37 million euros because he used the brand illegally. Becali loses the brand Steaua. The decision of the High Court of Cassation and Justice (Romania's supreme court) about the palmares(history of the club) At this point is just wrong to call FC Fcsb, Steaua Bucharest. Please do something with the fake news on this page. -- CristiCristii ( talk) 13:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
This is Steaua Bucharest They have recovered 4 logos and the Palmares. AlexGhetu123 ( talk) 17:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Are we still waiting for final judgement? Currently, FCSB and CSA Steaua București (football) state that both clubs won (for example) Liga I in 1951. That is clearly incorrect. We also have incoming wikilinks about the disputed period which currently lead to dab FC Steaua București rather than the actual history. One option is to create a third article for the history, but I'm not sure of the best title for each article. Certes ( talk) 09:06, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
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CSA Steaua Bucharest have now the trophies untill 2003, FCSB new founding date is 2003 so remove the 1947-2003 period. 5.14.34.182 ( talk) 18:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Steaua Bucarest 151.19.106.242 ( talk) 19:16, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Robert Grecu (FW, number 27) wasn't fully transfered to FC Argeș, he is out on loan to the respective team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.8.143 ( talk) 18:13, 1 September 2017
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Hello. I am the media officer of FCSB. My name is Catalin Fainisi and my email address is media@fcsb.ro. Please edit our logo on wikipedia, because it does not contain a white circle. Should you need the exact png file, I am more than happy to share it with you. Catalinfainisi ( talk) 07:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:52, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. No such user ( talk) 12:00, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
FCSB → FC FCSB – The name of this page is not consistent with the naming conventions for articles on sports teams. In cases where there is no ambiguity as to the official spelling of a club's name in English, the official name should be used. There are numerous examples to be found, such as Manchester_City_F.C.. Please support consistency accross Wikipedia by renaming and moving this article to FC FCSB. For avoidance of doubt, this information can be found on the official website of the team - English language version: This is the only official website (...) and it is a registered trademark ©FC FCSB SA. Gunnlaugson ( talk) 22:06, 31 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 23:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
this in not steaua bucharest!!! 2A02:2F0A:B20B:F200:3372:F5EA:9DB1:5E65 ( talk) 21:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging FC Steaua București into the history section of FCSB since it seems like consensus on that page's talk might lean towards that. BuySomeApples ( talk) 06:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The result of the move request was: not moved I realize that this will likely be a controversial close, since the result was either slightly favouring moving numerically or tied depending on how you count noses, but consensus is not simply a nose count, and strength of arguments matter. Those opposing raised the strongest point that the question of the name should be based on what the common name is in English language sourcing, and provided sourcing to show that it was still at the old name, even if this was not the official name. While it may be possible that the usage has changed in Romanian, it is up to those supporting a move to the official name to demonstrate that usage in the English-language has changed, and that has not been done here. Because of this, the arguments opposing a name change hold significantly more weight than those based on primary sourcing in Romanian. This is enough in my reading of the relevant English Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and naming conventions to push this from a no consensus result to a result of not moved. TonyBallioni ( talk) 22:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FC FCSB – There is a final court decision regarding the name of the club. This page should be moved to reflect the new name of the club, Fotbal Club FCSB Gunnlaugson ( talk) 08:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 15:00, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It's clear that this is dispute isn't going to go away any time soon, particularly since the courts say FCSB is not Steaua, but UEFA and FRF say that they are a continuation of the same record and honours, although another entity attached to the owners of the name now exists to challenge this.
I think it would be beneficial, at least for now since various proceedings are still ongoing, for a new FCSB article to be created covering the period from 2003, leaving the FC Steaua article to cover the historic period up to that point, where I believe everyone is in agreement that it was just one club. Any links for 1947—2002 would go to the historic Steaua article and anything from the FCSB years would point to there. That club can't legally call itself Steaua București and are not referred to by that name by UEFA so it's muddying the waters to still have the article named as such when referring to the current team, although it is the correct term to be used in a historic context - splitting up the timeline would largely resolve that, even though FCSB did refer to themselves as Steaua until recently. Both the FCSB article and the CSA 2017 article could refer extensively to the history and honours of old Steaua and could even say they both started in 1947 and claim the honours on both their articles, but it would be clear that many of these factors were disputed.
I realise there is an argument that CSA 2017 is just 'reawakened' Steaua rather than restarted altogether, but since there was a 14 year gap between the FCSB era and the CSA relaunch in a lower division this year, I definitely feel it's justified for those articles to be separated. But equally, it is clear that FCSB will no longer be allowed to call themselves Steaua going forward, so I think it would also be fair to have another article for them. And that would leave all the old references and links and associated pages with the initial neutral 'FC Steaua București' article (here), which was the accurate name for the club when it comes won those disputed trophies, and means less tidying up to be done.
This is just a suggestion of course, but having seen the seemingly endless problems between editors of attributing honours to teams and deciding what name to be used, this might be a reasonable compromise solution (which could still be changed at a later time of course). Crowsus ( talk) 20:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
– This would be a really bad idea. It would send a wrong message, that there was, at some point, a "split" inside the football club and, consequently, two football clubs emerged from one. There was no such split. The football club totally separated from the sports club (CSA). The fact that the sports club (CSA) re-engaged in football activities starting with 2017 does not imply that there was ever a split similar to what you're mentioning. It merely reflects the fact that CSA created a NEW TEAM, established in 2017 in the highest league they were eligible to register as a new football entity.
– Moreover, to tell a Steaua supporter that the team he/she loves retroactively split 20 years ago (by the way, the separation from the sports club happened in 1998) because some brand and name divergences that were settled in court just recently...it's not only wrong, it's plainly absurd. One can't just roll back history like that.
– Adding to that, no Steaua fan (be it FCSB fan or CSA fan) would ever support the idea that the football club he/she loves has to split its honors with another entity.
– At this point. the reasonable solution should be leaving things as it is + adding more clarity by specifying that FCSB is "the club formerly known as FC Steaua Bucharest" Taras bulba 47 ( talk) 09:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Tentative support – If the government and league have differing positions, and Wikipedians disagree, then the allocation of history seems to be a matter of opinion rather than fact. How about splitting the history into a subarticle rather than a separate topic, in the same way that Bucharest#Economy links to Main article: Economy of Bucharest? Both current clubs can then have a short history section stating "this club claims a history dating from 1947, disputed by other club, and here's a link to that history". Certes ( talk) 11:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Support - Before going forward with the discussion, people need to understand a few things. First, the team called FC Steaua Bucharest doesn't exist. In fact, it never existed. Becali's team used the name illegally. The full name of the Steaua Bucharest team known throughout the world is Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua Bucuresti (translated to The Army's Sports Club Steaua Bucharest). The team that won the Champions League in 1986 was called Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua Bucharest. The part with "The Army's Sports Club" is usually not used, as supporters prefer to call the team Steaua. In fact, when talking about the rugby team, or the polo team or any other department, the press also refers to them as Steaua Bucharest, not CSA or any other name, as some have suggested. As I said earlier, Becali's football team used the Steaua name illegally since its founding, in 2003. Had it done things the right way, the team would have never used the name Steaua in the first place. Had this happened, there would now be no confusion as to which team is which. But, because Becali is a corrupt politician, who has the media in his pocket, he continues to spread lies and to create confusion. Fotbal Club Fcsb was founded in 2003,as its official documents show. It may claim to own the Steaua honours, but it can't prove this.What UEFA and the Romanian Football Federation post on their websites doesn't count either, since it's not an official position of the two entities. UEFA could just as well paste the honours of FC Barcelona to the FC Fcsb page. That would not mean that FC Fcsb is FC Barcelona. So, I am for a split. FC Fcsb's life started in 2003, when, through some machinations, Becali managed to take Steaua's place in the first division. With the help of some corrupt officials inside the Steaua club, he managed to keep the club from reactivating its football department. And that's what happened until a few years ago, when all the nasty stuff came out. Again. The club's own documents show that FC Fcsb was founded in 2003. It does not own the Steaua brand, name, history or honours, since Becali admitted that he never conducted any business with the Steaua club. So please split the information and stop the lies. I am a supporter of Steaua Bucharest and I am sick and tired to be considered a fan of FC Fcsb.-
TPTB (
talk) 14:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment @ TPTB - I gave up answering to you, but I can't avoid it now. You're absolutely incorigible! You say "FC Steaua Bucharest doesn't exist. In fact, it never existed." WHAT ?!?!?!? Did you even take a look at the 1986 Champions' Cup and the names listed there? Yes, it says FC Steaua Bucuresti!!! link here: https://scontent-sof1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22894319_1656326861090902_1807694588951076701_n.jpg?oh=b20a1e6080ea7a6499fb53b6086ab4f5&oe=5A73E58F — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.86.113.226 ( talk) 15:33, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Comment - The deal is this, people. FC Fcsb is currently involved in several lawsuits with Steaua, and it's most definitely going to lose them all. One lawsuit will make the team change its name again, because Becali, the team's shadow owner, said that Fcsb comes from FC Steaua Bucharest. And as I said earlier, his team is not allowed to use that name. In another lawsuit, Steaua is asking for about 37 million euros in reparations for the 10+ years when FC Fcsb used the Steaua name and brand illegally. Now, the sum may be even larger than 37 million, but even if it's 10 million, Becali won't be able to afford it. At that point, he's going to file for bankruptcy and the FC Fcsb wikipedia page will probably stop its existence there. - TPTB ( talk) 14:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for comments. My wish is certainly not to annoy or upset Steaua supporters of either 'type'. I don't want you to lose your history and hopefully this matter will be resolved soon somehow. Maybe even through the lawsuits above.
@ 8Dodo8: I think you may have been wishing to Oppose rather than just comment since you agreed with the oppose vote above?
@ Taras bulba 47: I fully agree that the continuity of FC Steaua into FCSB, supported by UEFA etc, presents a very strong case for it being the same club without interruption. And prior to this year, the legal status didn't really matter as it was just a naming issue so there was no problem. But now it's not as simple as just saying 'FCSB is Steaua' when there is a second team also claiming to be Steaua and showing the honours on its website. Unfortunately, the very scenario you say has never occurred, "two football clubs emerged from one", has actually happened now with both asserting that they are the true club. The fact that the CSA article had to be locked as a result of edit warring demonstrates the strength of feeling on both sides, as well as the fact that both claims have some merit, as explained from the CSA side by User:TPTB and others. That claim obviously comes from the court result which can't just be disregarded, and poses the question: if the current entity has no legal claim to be the same as that which existed before 2003 (hence the reason for suggesting that as a 'start date'), can a new team from the original owners lay claim to trophies won by the historic team they operated? It's an interesting argument, but as I've said, I realise it runs counter to the logic applied by UEFA.
@ Amakuru: I wasn't consciously trying to circumvent the renaming issue, but I suppose that is would have been the result. The big problem is, I can't think of many articles on Wikipedia where the subject of the article is currently legally not permitted to refer to themselves by their common name, which is the title of their article. Not sure how much weight that carries in reality. I think I will go to onto relevant articles and request that they show something like FCSB (Steaua) which would reflect both the legal name and the common name. We'll see how that goes....
Instead, my new idea is to improve the section of the History of Steaua article relating to the events of the recent past and link back to this as a point of reference in the two club articles, wherever relevant. There is a bit on there already but I think it could be expanded and referenced further. I would encourage others to do likewise, as long as the information adheres to the guidelines on editorialising, neutrality, bias, weight etc. I'm confident that between us we can explain both sides of the argument in a fair manner in that setting. Crowsus ( talk) 15:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@ TPTB: but your source says that the FRF recognises FCSB as Steaua, and for the moment at least the UEFA website shows the full list of honours with FCSB, while of course both the FCSB site and the CSA site show their own club as winners of the relevant titles, so it is correct to refer to the these as disputed and mention the other entity claiming them on each article.
If and when it is properly decided that CSA owns the 21 titles, big cup etc and FRF makes the effort to correct UEFA and forces FCSB to remove their claim from their records, then I and all fair-minded editors on here will be very quick to fix Wikipedia to that effect. But at the moment I'm afraid it's all still uncertain, even if some of that may be due to incompetent beurocracy whereby FCSB are still claiming things they are not allowed to and nobody is stopping them (the illegal use of the name is pretty blatant!). Seems like the blame for not enforcing that, as well as providing the info to UEFA, lies with the FRF?
But, inaccurate as it may be, the official sites of UEFA and FRF carry more weight than your counter allegations, which have been mostly unsourced or articles of hearsay from tabloid journalism (we heard X person said Y to Z company in 2004). It may well all be true and you have my sympathy that we can't just take your word for it at present because what you have said makes a good bit of sense to me, but you must see that what's in writing on the majority of official sources at present favours the other side of the argument.
Are there any good sources (in English preferably, but that might be wishful thinking) for the ongoing court cases for the dispute? And when is the outcome likely to be known? Thanks in advance. Crowsus ( talk) 11:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hello! The page of Steaua Bucuresti has been protected and I can't bring back the correct intro which was removed. It should read "FCSB (Romanian pronunciation: [fet͡ʃeseˌbe]), short for Fotbal Club Steaua București (Romanian pronunciation: [ˈste̯awa bukuˈreʃtʲ]) and colloquially known as simply Steaua,". Also, the "clubname" of the main template should, per WP:COMMONNAME, "Steaua București" instead of "FC FCSB". Any admin who could help with this minor edits please? 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 12:22, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I want to request an admin to replace all „FCSB” in the page content with „Steaua București” because that is the real name of this club.In all the Europe if you ask somebody who is FCSB he will be confused.But if you ask about Steaua București he will surely know.FCSB is an acronym,exactly like BVB(Borussia Dortmund),ASSE(AS Saint Etienne) or FCB(FC Barcelona).There is no other „Steaua” in Romania,therefore I see no reason to refuse changing FCSB into Steaua in this article.At this moment,I consider the article a disinformation to its readers.And also,Wikipedia says that is a free encyclopedia,so the decision to fully protect this page does not match with that „free” term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrizzlyBear2002 ( talk • contribs) 14:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The Romanian Football League has recently issued a statement saying that a club's records and history are closely tied to its brand. They did this for Universitatea Craiova, a team which underwent the same ordeal as Steaua. It was replaced by another team in the 90s, that team claimed it was the real Universitatea and played in its place until it lost the Universitatea Craiova brand in the court of law. After the real owners of the brand won the lawsuit, they reactivated the football team and now it is recognized as the real Universitatea. The same thing happened to Steaua. You can see the press release here> https://lpf.ro/noutati/informare-cu-privire-la-palmaresul-cs-u-craiova/164 As a result, I ask that the information on this page be updated to include the correct information. FC Fcsb was not founded in 1947, but in 2003. It does not own the Steaua name, brand or records. Its records only start in 2003. - TPTB ( talk) 11:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change |trans_title=
to |trans-title=
in all places where it occurs (nine times, I think). The "trans_title" parameter alias has been deprecated. Thank you. –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 03:38, 16 November 2017 (UTC) –
Jonesey95 (
talk) 03:42, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
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FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The real name of the club is Fotbal Club FCSB, I don't understand why you changed that in the infobox. The common name of the club is Steaua and that's fine, but at the club name in the infobox we need the official one. 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 10:23, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
What if we replace all "Steaua București" links from other articles with "FCSB" but keep the article name as it is now (FC Steaua București)? The same happens with Inter Milan, as the player pages display "Internazionale". 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 09:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
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Sm00thie23 ( talk) 12:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
At the begining it is mentioned that the team's name is ,,FC Steaua Bucuresti" and that Fcsb is short for ,,Fotball Club Steaua Bucuresti". That's false ! The team's name is ,,FC Fcsb", which is short for ,,Football Club Fcsb". ,,Fcsb" is not an abbreviation. https://lpf.ro/cluburi/fc-fcsb/2 https://i.imgur.com/Uguwhfd.jpg -- Dante4786 ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 05:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București →
FCSB – Lost legal challenge to use the name "Steaua" and its history, not formally or legally called "Steaua" anymore
Abcmaxx (
talk) 13:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
This is not Steaua Bucharest . FCSB use illegal , without any approve from the CSA Steaua Bucharest club , the sign and the name. After 04.05.2018 , the highest Judge Court from Romania , decide that FCSB cannot use the sign and name "STEAUA BUCURESTI" forever. All rights about the name and sign is now at CSA STEAUA BUCHAREST - which is part of National Minister of Defence or Romania. Please change that name , is not real one. Gioko22sud ( talk) 17:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
More than a year after the official name change to "FCSB", the club has been starting replacing "Steaua" from both its Facebook page and official website. 8Dodo8 ( talk · contribs) 19:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED but possibly a tad closer to getting moved than the last RM. We may be getting there. Slowly. Maybe after the 32nd move request we'll get this moved (please don't start more RMs based on this comment). I'd say I'm also learning far more about Romanian football controversies, through closing this business, than I have any real desire to do so.
Anyways, enough rambling, here's an explanation for the result: policy is clear that "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject", ergo half the supports actually count against the move because they themselves acknowledge that "foreign media" sources still use the current name (and there was no citation of other policy-based arguments, only non-policy based arguments of court rulings and romanian-language sources). There was suggestion that english-language sources have changed, but overall consensus was no on that, hence the NOT MOVED result.
On the repeated move requests; more speedy closes on the past moves really would've helped there (hmm, should we create a WP:Speedy not moved criteria?), but it definitely seems necessary to stop the repeated requested moves that don't acknowledge the previous RMs and that court decisions/OFFICIALNAME are not really valid reasons to move. Hence, a moratorium of 6 months on making move requests, but even after that, any move request should lay out clear evidence that English language reliable source usage has changed to "routinely use the new name" FCSB ("routinely use" is based on the wording of NAMECHANGES policy) Basically, it is reasonable to speedy close any move request that doesn't address why the previous move requests failed. ( non-admin closure) Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București →
FCSB – There is a final court decision barring Fotbal Club FCSB from using the name Steaua.
[1] Not moving the page means disregarding a definitive decision of the Romanian courts. On top of that, the club itself has renamed their official website and social media to FCSB (which is the name of the team and not an acronym).
[2] Most Romanian and English-language websites now refer to the club as FCSB (please check the links in Google News for evidence).
[3] It is time to move the page to FCSB.
Gunnlaugson (
talk) 15:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
This will be a difficult one to close IMO, owing to the many arguments above that are in favour of the move but must be discarded: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.
Nominator's rationale, for example, concludes Most Romanian and English-language websites now refer to the club as FCSB which is half valid assuming it's true (the Romanian sources don't count) but is preceded by two sentences of pure irrelevance. It's only in sentence three that any relevant point is made.
The survey is worse. For example, IMO the support !votes by Rhinen and Abcmaxx show no understanding of the matter of issue and should simply be discarded. And there are more similar.
But there are also valid points made in support. Even Abcmaxx makes a claim later in a comment Not even satisfies WP:COMMONNAME any more either, strong sources too which I think means that sources now support a move. But they provide no evidence. That is a valid reason for a move if it's true, so should that be taken as a (weak for lack of evidence) reason to count their !vote? Difficult indeed. Andrewa ( talk) 07:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
References
Following on the latest RM above and also Talk:CSA Steaua București (football)#RfC on this article's content I'm going to take my courage in both hands and make some further comments.
The most difficult one is that there are some obvious language difficulties. On the one hand English Wikipedia exists for all English speakers, not just native speakers. But on the other hand, there's a difficulty when someone with poor English skills disputes the meaning or application of English Wikipedia polices, as seems to be happening regularly here. Again, on the one hand we need to understand that what appears to be wp:IDHT may, in the case of a native speaker of other languages, be a genuine lack of comprehension. On the other hand, that's not a blank cheque. Unintentional disruption remains disruption, and speakers of other languages need to understand that their lack of understanding of policies written in English does not excuse them from following them. Rather they need to exercise restraint in pursuing discussions whenever their lack of English skills may be the real problem. We are volunteers and should try not to waste each others' time.
The other thing is to reiterate that Wikipedia takes no stand on who has the rights to the various names and honours. We should merely report the positions of others. But these are explicit opinions that we report. We don't say, for example, the BBC uses this name so they regard it as the legal or moral property of the club in question. That's interpretation. We just say the BBC uses the name. That's all! We can't guess why they do. That's interpretation. Again, this is a subtle difference and probably lost on many non-native-English-speakers. Andrewa ( talk) 01:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 8 June 2018. The result of the move review was endorse. |
The result of the move request was: See moratorium above; continuing to open new requested moves is disruptive editing; if you have a problem with this or the previous close, go to WP:MRV. Also see WP:NOTVOTE. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 10:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FCSB – The previous discussion was closed prematurely, furthermore it had more support than opposed, so why someone keeps closing the discussion when it's clearly not concluded? Tag should stay till consensus is reached, however long it may be Abcmaxx ( talk) 09:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
This article should be split into Steaua București (1947-2003) and FCSB(/potentially Steaua București (2003-)), leaving a redirect form Steaua București (2017-) to CSA Steaua București. There is no reason this article should be lumped in with the history of the original clubwhen clearly it has lost all association and right to the original. As soon as the moratorium is lifted this is going to get nominated once more for name change and this will avoid that. Also there are numerous precedents in Wikipedia. Abcmaxx ( talk) 15:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
FC Steaua București has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
False article, FCSB is not Steaua Bucuresti, see legal decision 84.232.215.140 ( talk) 15:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Fotbal Club Fcsb is not FC Steaua Bucuresti Ali.1947 ( talk) 00:48, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
According to the Romanian Football Federation site [1], the correct name is: SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA Dante4786 ( talk) 17:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The only thing which could be changed as a result of that ref is the 'Full name' in the infobox. All other references to FC Steaua are valid as that was the past name of the club, which (for now at least) is considered to be the same as the current FCSB so all past tense references to FC Steaua are valid. And it is therefore also correct to have Steaua in the nickname as many people still refer to FCSB using that name, although officially it can no longer can be called that. Crowsus ( talk) 20:31, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 21:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
FCSB → FC FCSB – I'm requesting for an update regarding the title of the page, the information displayed in the infobox and for a modified version of the beginning of the article. The title should be FC FCSB. The full name, which is SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA according to the Romanian Football Federation site (link here: http://frfotbal.ro/echipa.php?id=1285), should be displayed at the beginning of the article AND in the infobox. For a better understanding, I will make a comparison to A.C._Milan's page. The club's full name is Associazione Calcio Milan (S.p.A.), while FCSB's full name is SC Fotbal Club FCSB (SA). The title of the article is A.C. Milan, while the title of FCSB's page should be FC FCSB. The short names are Milan and FCSB. I'm also pointing out that FCSB & CSA Steaua București (football) are not treated in the same manner. CSA Steaua București (football)'s page has the club's full name displayed EVERYWHERE. In the title, in the infobox and in the beginning of the introduction. That's not the case for FCSB's page (or A.C._Milan's page). In conclusion, I am only asking for equal and fair treatment. If that page has the title CSA Steaua București, than this page should have FC Fcsb in the title. Also, if Steaua's wikipedia page begins with the club's full name (Clubul Sportiv al Armatei Steaua București) than so should Fcsb's page start with the full name, namely SC Fotbal Club FCSB SA. And yes, ,,FC Steaua" was the old name of FC Fcsb, but that name was ILLEGALLY used ! Wikipedia should not condone an illegal act. Dante4786 ( talk) 17:38, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
References
|clubname=
was changed only by
Dante4786 in this
Special:Diff/879166320, which have 3RR conducted by users and 3RR back by Dante4786 . So it never validly in the infobox, as it was contervserial and did not even ask for consensus.
Matthew hk (
talk) 11:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
|clubname=
or Arsenal. But RM is wrong venue for the infobox and lead that you made 3RR.
Matthew hk (
talk) 20:02, 20 January 2019 (UTC)![]() | This
edit request to
FCSB has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
CM.Catalin ( talk) 08:59, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Steaua a câștigat astăzi, printr-o decizie a Tribunalului București, palmaresul din perioada 1947 - 2004. O decizie ce vine după o sumedenie de amânări, o decizie normala și așteptată de toată suflarea stelista. Solicit corectarea informatiilor pe pagina Wikipedia aferenta FC FCSB SA si informarea corecta a publicului! Acest club fantoma nu are nicio legatura cu STEAUA Bucuresti! Nu mai patati istoria Stelei. https://www.prosport.ro/fotbal-intern/exclusiv-csa-steaua-a-castigat-procesul-pentru-palmares-cu-gigi-becali-decizia-de-ultima-ora-a-tribunalului-18223235?fbclid=IwAR0Urd3KMDogofblukiWUcdxugu5XUxkWw7ZcSRvtoIue4iLCX0CiqKIy70
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. —
Compassionate727 (
T·
C) 19:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
The name is Fotbal Club Fcsb. Ali.1947 ( talk) 00:47, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
The real name is Fotbal Club FCSB. Fotbal Club FCSB is not FC Steaua București. Ali.1947 ( talk) 17:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
The real name is FCSB a.k.a Fotbal Club Steaua București! MikeAlexander11 ( talk) 08:13, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Can you show us any proof that FCSB means Fotbal Club Steaua Bucuresti? Becali only registered these 2 brands at OSIM.. :( Yes, in the left it says Fotbal Club Steaua Bucuresti because he used the name illegally and he changed it to what you can see in the picture. -- CristiCristii ( talk) 18:30, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved ( non-admin closure) JC7V ( talk) 18:03, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
FC Steaua București → FCSB – I am now proposing this move of the article to the correct title FCSB according to policies because it has been protected so that only certain users can move it and because there was a moratorium, so it could not be done before. The result of the last discussion was "no consensus" and all our arguments (and therefore policies) were ignored. The COMMONNAME policy states that we give greater weight to sources published after the name change, so we give greater weight to sources published after May 4 2018, when Steaua Bucharest officially changed name to FCSB. We presented arguments that after that date the Romanian Football Federation, the Romanian Professional Football League, UEFA, FIFA and the club itself use FSCB on their websites and other channels, both in Romanian and in English. Also the vast majority of media in English language uses the new name after that date, as we presented examples. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, so it is irrelevant if some English speaking editors hold some emotional attachment to the old name of the once European champions, we must follow the reliable sources after the name change and the opposing camp presented not one proof that the common name has somehow miraculously stayed at FC Steaua București. Linhart ( talk) 23:00, 11 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 05:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
any move request should lay out clear evidence that English language reliable source usage has changed to "routinely use the new name"and that
it is reasonable to speedy close any move request that doesn't address why the previous move requests failed. It seems to me that the latter condition is met, since the rationale for moving (which says
all our arguments (and therefore policies) were ignoredseems to be explicitly a rehash of the previous move, and shows no sign of understanding why that move failed. I therefore suggest this be speedily closed, unless some actual real substantial *new* evidence, not considered in the last RM, is forthcoming. Thanks — Amakuru ( talk) 10:29, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
The third-best team in Austria last term, they beat Slovan Bratislava and Steaua Bucharest to qualify, the BBC source cited by supporters above is in Pidgin, not English. Iffy★ Chat -- 21:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The continuous misleading that the fraud club SC FC FCSB SA 2003, founded in 2003 by George Becali, has any ties whatsoever with the club CSA Steaua Bucuresti, founded in 1947, apart from a failed identity theft not only spreads false information, but leads to a loss of money and reputation for CSA Steaua Bucuresti.
The court has already decided that FCSB has used the name illegally, and it is also stated in the article.
So why is the fraud club still reffered to as "Steaua"? That makes no sense.
And why is the history and everything else related to CSA Steaua Bucuresti?
SC FC FCSB SA 2003 and CSA Steaua Bucuresti are two different entities, and this has already been settled. Skandura ( talk) 23:09, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:03, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand why this page exists anymore having so many fake news on it. There have been 20+ trials that just proves this club ( FC Fcsb) is not Steaua Bucharest. They have lost everything, the brand Steaua Bucharest and the palmares, the records of the club Steaua. Also, the owner of FC Fcsb now needs to pay CSA Steaua Bucharest 37 million euros because he used the brand illegally. Becali loses the brand Steaua. The decision of the High Court of Cassation and Justice (Romania's supreme court) about the palmares(history of the club) At this point is just wrong to call FC Fcsb, Steaua Bucharest. Please do something with the fake news on this page. -- CristiCristii ( talk) 13:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
This is Steaua Bucharest They have recovered 4 logos and the Palmares. AlexGhetu123 ( talk) 17:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Are we still waiting for final judgement? Currently, FCSB and CSA Steaua București (football) state that both clubs won (for example) Liga I in 1951. That is clearly incorrect. We also have incoming wikilinks about the disputed period which currently lead to dab FC Steaua București rather than the actual history. One option is to create a third article for the history, but I'm not sure of the best title for each article. Certes ( talk) 09:06, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
FCSB has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
CSA Steaua Bucharest have now the trophies untill 2003, FCSB new founding date is 2003 so remove the 1947-2003 period. 5.14.34.182 ( talk) 18:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Steaua Bucarest 151.19.106.242 ( talk) 19:16, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Robert Grecu (FW, number 27) wasn't fully transfered to FC Argeș, he is out on loan to the respective team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.8.143 ( talk) 18:13, 1 September 2017
![]() | This
edit request to
FCSB has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello. I am the media officer of FCSB. My name is Catalin Fainisi and my email address is media@fcsb.ro. Please edit our logo on wikipedia, because it does not contain a white circle. Should you need the exact png file, I am more than happy to share it with you. Catalinfainisi ( talk) 07:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:52, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:52, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. No such user ( talk) 12:00, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
FCSB → FC FCSB – The name of this page is not consistent with the naming conventions for articles on sports teams. In cases where there is no ambiguity as to the official spelling of a club's name in English, the official name should be used. There are numerous examples to be found, such as Manchester_City_F.C.. Please support consistency accross Wikipedia by renaming and moving this article to FC FCSB. For avoidance of doubt, this information can be found on the official website of the team - English language version: This is the only official website (...) and it is a registered trademark ©FC FCSB SA. Gunnlaugson ( talk) 22:06, 31 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 23:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
this in not steaua bucharest!!! 2A02:2F0A:B20B:F200:3372:F5EA:9DB1:5E65 ( talk) 21:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging FC Steaua București into the history section of FCSB since it seems like consensus on that page's talk might lean towards that. BuySomeApples ( talk) 06:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)