This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
F. Murray Abraham article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
If you're only going to make a partial list, why not include "The Name of the Rose"? 129.177.138.102 22:15, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
F. Murray Abraham was not given a credit in the "Bonfire Of The Vanities" for his role as Mayor Abe Weiss. His role as mayor of New York included numerous scenes and a fair amount of dialog. Why would an Academy Award winning actor not be credited in a movie where he clearly had more than just a small part?
IMDB, a source we cite, says he was born "Fahrid Murray Abraham", yet the article says he was born "Frederico Abrammo Monteglini". Can anyone explain this discrepancy and confirm his true birth name? JackofOz 13:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I found a link to F. Murray from the list of Arab-Americans, but here it says he is from Italian heritage, so what is it?
Here is what [1]says:
"His grandfather was a legendary singer in his village in Syria, and his father was the only son to survive the famine in Syria during WWI. His father emigrated, met and married an Italian-American woman, and Abraham was born as WWII started gearing up" I will try edit this article -- christos7 23:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
He is not Arab-American, he is ethnically Assyrian and Italian.
He ISN'T an Arab. Christ...
According to an interview on the Diane Rehm show on 15 October 2012, both he and his father have the first name Frederick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.154.237.4 ( talk) 15:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't know much about Mr Abraham's work. I see that his mother was "an Italian American, the daughter of an immigrant", and that he has appeared in many films with titles (and I'm guessing, dialogue) in Italian. Does anybody have a cite on his level of fluency in the Italian language? -- 201.50.251.197 14:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm hoping someone can add a different photo of FMA. Using a photo of him made up to look old in Amadeus doesn't really tell you what he looks like. Perhaps someone can find a different photo of him from that film? Thanks. Lafong 19:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
(Let's keep this discussion civil, please.) The current photo of F.Murray and fan probably isn't the best either. MrYdobon ( talk) 16:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
F Murray has narrated a ton of "Nature" documentaries. You can hardly watch Nature anymore without hearing his resonant baritone.
This needs added to the article. 67.170.160.194 ( talk) 06:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I was a friend of F. Murray Abraham's extended family in Pittsburgh. Neither Abraham nor his relatives are Iraqi. They are Syrians. They are Antiochian Orthodox Christians but are not called Assyrians. They refer to themselves like anyone else from Syria, namely "Syrian." No Syrian calls themselves "Assyrian". Why shy away from the word Syrian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 ( talk) 04:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Also I was baptized Syrian Orthodox. I never say I am Assyrian Christian or Assyrian Orthodox , I say Syrian Christian or Syrian Orthodox Christian. People who write these articles are reading to much Wiki history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 ( talk) 05:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
He is an Assyrian and a member of the Syriac Orthodox Church, Assyrian is an ethnie and Syriac Orthodox is a Christian denomination. He is not an arab. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000719/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm Elvis214 ( talk) 21:54, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Assyria is an ancient kingdom that lasted until 650 BC. Although it covered a large area it is considered to be in Iraq. Also, Syriac is not what Syrian Christians are called. They are called Syrian Orthodox Christians or Antiochian Orthodox. "Syriac" is not really used. No Christian Syrian or even muslim Syrian would ever call themselves Assyrian. It's like calling a Syrian a "Babylonian"
He's not "Assyrian" he's Syrian. Just like Steve Jobs and Jerry Seinfeld. No one calls themselves Assyrian. That was an ancient empire. It's like calling French people Normans or Greek people Athenians or Spartans
You don’t know shit, Syrian is a nationality, not an ethnicity. While Assyrian is an ethnicity. There are ethnic Assyrians Syriac Christian’s from Syria and Iraq too, they speak the Syriac Aramaic language with different dialects, while the majority of Syria beeing Arab Muslims. People called as Assyrian syriac or Chaldean are the same ethnic group, with a own aramaic language and abjad own churches and own history. They are not Arabs.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The article says "He gained visibility voicing a talking bunch of grapes in a series of television commercials for Fruit of the Loom underwear.[10]" Is this a joke? If not, a better phrase could be found .. e.g. "gained more attention" or "became well known as" or something - gaining visibility through voice work just sounds daft. Or is it some sneaky vandalism? Jabberwock359 ( talk) 12:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
If we look at the direct primary documentation (census records, birth certificates and obituary of his mother) and the facts about his father and himself that has come out out of Murray Abraham's mouth we can know for sure his father came from Ottoman Syria
Here is what is know for sure coming from the above sources/documentation:
-His paternal grandparents Murry Abraham and Fadia Abraham (nee Albert according to family trees at Ancestry) and father Fred (born in 1915-1916) came from Ottoman Syria (usually written just as Syria or Syrian Republic in most censuses and certificates, and does not necessarily present day Syria) and settled in Fort City northeast of Pittsburg in the 1920s when his father Fred was 5 years old (although a later record indicates that he was actually 9 years old at that time)
Fred's death certificate https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JR4M-DWL
Family trees at Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1030/?name=Murry_Abraham&birth=_pennsylvania-usa_41&pcat=42&spouse=Fadia
-Murray, who was born Murry, was born 1939-1940 in Ambridge, northwest of Pittsburg. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89MT-PQVN?i=8&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKQQ8-SJF
Murray's mother Josephine Stello Abraham obituary https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/elpasotimes/obituary.aspx?n=josephine-abraham&pid=156404738&fhid=7166
In Murray's and his mother own words saying his father came from Syria, was a Christian Syrian and that he is of Syrian ancestry. He also states his father came to US in the 1920s due to a famine.
https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php
About the famine in Abraham's words https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html
The problem is that no documents nor him as stated WHERE in Ottoman Syria his father came from nor has any documents nor him stated his father was of Assyrian ethnicity. But using the facts that we have from the documents and what he himself has said here is what we can deduct:
-Murray has never mentioned anywhere the Assyrian Genocide. If his father was Assyrian wouldn't he have mentioned the Assyrian Genocide in any of his interviews?? Instead he says his father escaped a famine in Syria in the early 20s. Well the only famine that we know of is the Great Famine of Mount Lebanon, which affected only the people of modern day Lebanon not Syrians nor Assyrians. Just from this fact its pretty clear his father came from Mount Lebanon in Ottoman Syria not present day Syria.
-Murray and his mother stated that his grandfather was a priest and a legendary chanter/singer in the Orthodox Church in Ottoman Syria before the 1920s. This means he resided in Ottoman Syria for quite some time before the 1920s.
The Assyrians were not living in Ottoman Syria at the time Murray's grandparents left to the US. They were resettling to North-East present Syria from Upper Mesopotamia in Turkey ( Tur Abdin and Harput/Kharphut) which was not Ottoman Syria at the time but simply called south east Turkey or Ottoman Empire. They resettled to present day Lebanon from those areas as well as Adana (French Cicilia) after the famine and the blockade had passed around the 1930s as you can see they dont appear listed in the census of Syria nor Lebanon before the 1930s. /info/en/?search=List_of_Assyrian_settlements#Syria
/info/en/?search=Assyrian%E2%80%93Chaldean%E2%80%93Syriac_diaspora#Lebanon
The Syriac Orthodox Church that the Assyrians are adherents to was located in Tur Abdin, Turkey but not in Ottoman Syria during those times and only arrived to Homs in Ottoman Syria in 1933 later moving to Damascus in 1949. So his grandfather was then a priest of the Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church in Mount Lebanon, Syria which is not the Orthodox church followed by the Assyrians.
-The Assyrians that settled in America before the 1940s all came from Urmia in Persia, southeast Turkey and Iraq. https://www.nineveh.com/ASSYRIAN-AMERICANS.html It was only after the 1950s that Assyrians from Lebanon and Syria migrated to America due to the conflicts in the area.
-His grandparents and father settled in Pittsburg in the 1920s. There is no documented history of any Assyrians settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s. The Assyrians that settled in the US in the 1920s mainly settled in Detroit and Chicago and were followers of the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Presbyterian Church not the Antiochian Orthodox Church. /info/en/?search=Assyrian_Americans
There is however documented history of Lebanese settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s https://books.google.se/books?id=EVxkaw0udDwC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=lebanese+in+pittsburgh&source=bl&ots=qL6YRbD7v8&sig=ACfU3U2xe_yYD-oS0-QGIjHc4VWGfc1qlw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIj7X71snoAhUtiYsKHdjvDI84HhDoATAFegQIDBAo#v=onepage&q=lebanese%20in%20pittsburgh&f=false
https://popularpittsburgh.com/pittsburgh-arabs/
-His grandparents and father later settled in El Paso, Texas in the 1940s. There is no documented history of Assyrians settling in Texas during those times. Some of the Assyrians that settled in Detroit and Chicago coming from Turkey and Iran due to the Assyrian Genocide latter moved to San Diego, California and Arizona
/info/en/?search=Assyrian_Americans#In_Michigan
There is however documented evidence of Lebanese and Syrians (mainly Lebanese though) settling in El Paso. In fact two of the largest clothing companies started by Lebanese were founded in Texas: Haggar Clothing and Farah Clothing (founded in El Paso). https://texasalmanac.com/topics/culture/lebanesesyrians/lebanesesyrian-texans F. Murray Abraham himself worked in the Farah Clothing factory owned by a Lebanese family before launching a career in acting https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue/198605/the.arab.americans.htm.
The most reliable indirect sources which have talked about Murray Abraham's ancestry, meaning books not random pages with an Assyrian editor/Assyrian agenda, or non reliable websites/internet pages, have referred to him as of Syro-Lebanese descent, not just of Syrian much less of Assyrian descent:
In fact in one of the very first articles written about him that came out in the New York Times in 1979 before he became famous and won an Oscar in 1985, he was said to be of Lebanese and Italian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/12/22/archives/teibeles-demon-feels-sure-he-is-going-to-be-famous-a-matter-of.html. Perhaps it was after he won the Oscar that the Assyrians started spreading that he was one of their own despite that fact that all the evidence so far stills points out to what was said then in 1979.
I think the reason F. Murray Abraham continues to identify as a Syrian instead of as Lebanese (but never as Assyrian) is because he perhaps was never able to find out where in Ottoman Syria his grandparents and father came from since as he himself has stated they spoke very little English and did not like to talk about their origins. But the information he seemed to have been able to gather from them and the facts he has shared about his family life (where they settled and moved to) does point out his grandparents came from Mount Lebanon due to the famine there and therefore he is of Lebanese descent not Syrian nor Assyrian.
Chris O' Hare (
talk)
16:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
All the primary evidence meaning official documents and things said by the Murray Abraham and Abraham's family themselves such as religious affiliation of the family contradict any secondary evidence such as online articles that assign Murray Assyrian descent. Seems like most of those online articles that assign him Assyrian descent 1) Have not examined carefully the primary evidence 2) Do not seem to know much about religious affiliation of the ethnoreligious groups of the Middle East as well as the history of their respective migrations/diaspora 3) Just repeat what they see in Wikipedia which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which are not the same thing. Yes the Assyrians belong to the Syriac Orthodox Church but that is not the same as the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church Chris O' Hare ( talk) 16:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Besides the already discussed information in the obituary of Adele Hendricks Abraham (1923-2019),aunt of Murray Abraham, it is stated she, three of her sisters and her brother Fred Abraham, father of Murray Abrahm were born in Myklos/ Muqlus in todays Syria. Link- https://obits.ocregister.com/obituaries/orangecounty/obituary.aspx?n=adele-hendricks-bobbie&pid=194874159
Death certificate and obituary of Marion Abraham Unsell (1914-1998), aunt of Murray Abraham, who died in El Paso in 1988 where it says she was born in Myklos in today's Syria https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS1-JH4Y https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se Birth of one of her children https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VD4D-638
Fred Tony Abraham (b. 1916-1920 in Ford City), father of Murray Abraham, settled in El Paso, Texas https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K5WK-F8F and died in Texas in 1995 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/106807003/fred-t-abraham
He was born in Miklos, Syria according to his World War II draft here https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2238&h=6910133&tid=&pid=&queryId=8f322267c21ddd4f2b3d2d27377c88eb&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bVu429&_phstart=successSource (requires a trial membership or paid subscription to see it)
Census of Murray Abraham grandfather with his children in 1930 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XCZW-6CG Murray was born in 1877 and immigrated to US in 1897 and his wife Fida (Hilda) was born 1890 and immigrated in in 1925 with the children Census of Hilda Abraham (here it says she was born circa 1894) with some her daughters in 1940 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQ8Q-5TY Chris O' Hare ( talk) 22:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Sources such as Commonwealth magazine, Arabamerican and IMDB are not legitimate and reliable sources. In the sources already provided in his article, Murray Abraham himself has said his father emigrated from Syria and that is family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church (Assyrians do not belong to this religious affiliation as discussed already in the Talk Page). All the official documentation of Murray Abraham's family say his family emigrated from Myklos/Muqlus, Syria where his father was born.
Henanton Here in Wikipedia, it is stated to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources" as per first sentence of second paragraph in /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons With the highest quality in for Historical matters being official documents, autobiographies and oral and videos as per first and second sentence of /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Books/Peer-reviewed journals as per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Magazines and Newspapers from respectable publishing house as the last source if the first ones are not available as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters, in the field of history and biographies, the older and closer the source is to the person involved with the event, the more weight it has over secondary sources.
You cannot give a secondary source (especially unrealiable ones) undue weight over primary sources such as official documents (obituaries, birth/death/marriage certificates) and what the subject himself has said in oral interviews in articles as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. You also cannot say all reliable sources say he is Assyrian which is completely false since the three reliable sources in the article https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php and https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html (and many more) say his grandfather and father were Syrian.
Claiming that Murray Abraham's family converted into the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church without providing any source for that is WP:OR and to keep ignoring that Murray Abraham himself says in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html that his family escaped famine in Syria (which means the famine of Mount Lebanon since there wasnt any other famine but that in the Levant during those years) saying that there was famine in the Assyrian Genocide as well is disruption and OR
The primary and more reliable sources state:
1) That his father and aunts were born in Myklos/Muqlus, Syria. But you say that has nothing to do with his ethnicity ignoring that no Assyrians ever settled in the Valley of the Christians (Wadi Al-Nasara) during 1910-1915 when his father was born there. You just want to assume and use your non-reliable source to come to that conclusion
2) That his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church. But you say they converted I assume from the Syriac Orthodox Church to which Assyrians belong to but dont provide any source for that
3) That his family escaped famine in Syria. But you you claim there was famine during the Assyrian genocide without providing any source where Murray Abraham says his family escaped famine during the Assyrian genocide. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 22:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Commonwealth is reliable and there are tons of sources that state he is Assyrian. Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born. Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus. /info/en/?search=Damascus#Demographics Henanton ( talk) 00:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? Well he has never said he was Assyrian ever. All he has ever said himself is that his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria. Do you have a source where he himself states he is Assyrian or his fahter/grandfather was?
The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Two of the three sources (the two obituaries) do not require payment, and the other requires a free trial. Stop wasting my time by choosing to disregard or ignore the sources provided or saying that official documentation such as obituaries and WWII drafts are non reliable sources which makes you a disruptive user as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing.
Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? Then you need to provide a source where he himself says his family was Assyrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, otherwise you are just pushing your OR here. Murray Abraham as always said his family was Syrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, which is not surprising if they came from Muqlus in Wadi Al-Nasara.
There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. But Murray Abraham himself has said his family escaped the famine in Syria (which is the same as the famine of Mount Lebanon which affected the area of Akkar/Wadi Al Nasara as well since its very close to the border with Lebanon in the north)
You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born Obituaries and WWII drafts are unreliable sources? This show you are not competent enough to be editing biographies then as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22?
Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus Then you need to provide a source where Murray Abraham says that is the case with his family which you have not violating WP:OR Chris O' Hare ( talk) 23:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
"He does not state his paternal grandfather belonged to the Greek church". Well his mother states his grandfather was a priest in Syria (not Assyria) so he must have belonged to the Greek church as well as can be read here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ You cant question or add doubt to what a reliable source says and add your own questioning and original research without providing a new source because that is a violating a per distortion of sources /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" Since there is no reliable secondary source such as an independent academic review from a reputable genealogist such as lets say for example American genealogist Henry Louis Gates, then official documents, an autobiography and/or the oral or video recordings/interviews in reputable sources become the main sources in this until a reputable secondary source debates or questions it.
You have not added a reputable academic secondary source from an expert but a non-reliable source prone to mistakes such as Commonwealth Magazine which have not examined carefully the primary evidence and is very likely just repeating what they see in Wikipedia before which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is always the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which is not case and also means the Antionchian Greek Orthodox Church.
"He only attended one in America". Says who? You? Where is your source for that? Because the El Paso Times source says his grandfather was a priest in Syria not Assyria.
"The Syriac Orthodox is also called Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East. If his grandfather belonged to the Greek Antioach then he would have said that". Stop asking me to cite that the sky is blue which also makes you disruptive user as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue If his grandfather and father belonged to the Syriac Orthodox Church and then Murray and his family converted to the Greek Orthodox Church (which is not the usual normal thing) he would have probably said that too which he has not. Since you have no souce for that that is your WP:OR.
"Also, the other source says his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syriac church is also called that as well and mentioned on the Wikipedia page /info/en/?search=Syriac_Orthodox_Church". Yeah and so does the Greek Orthodox Church which is what Murray Abraham himself has stated his family belonged to. You keep going against what Murray Abraham himself has said about that and explicitly clarified with his own words.
"He probably never brought up Syriac because no one knows what Syriac means and would draw blank stares". This is your opinion, here in Wikipedia we dont care about opinions, we discuss sources only
"I said Assyrians convert all the time and there are Assyrians that are not Christian as well. You keep talking about your sources but they say nothing about him not being Assyrian". Just like there are no sources out there where he himself has stated he is Assyrian except non-reliable secondary sources that dont match up what the primary sources say.
"What do those obituaries even have to do with anything? His relatives being born in a small Christian village in Syria makes no difference here". Oh yes it does, along with him saying his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church, its another peace of evidence that confirms he is not Assyrian since Myklos is a town of like 500 people and there is no source that says there were any Assyrians in that small village during 1910-1916 when his father Fred was born there.
"He only attended the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church in America because there were no Syriac Churches where he lived. People attend different churches all the time. Syriac churches in America are incredibly rare". This is your own WP:OR not backed by any source where Murray Abraham himself says that.
"Your source clearly states his family came to the United States to escape famine. It says abolutely nothing about the famine, or the famine of Mount Lebanon. There were many fmaines happening the middle east at that time, including for Assyrians". In this source https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 It says and I quote "In fact, "F" stands for Fahrid, and the name Abraham is an Anglicization of Ibrahim, and his father was a Christian Syrian who emigrated with his family around 1920 because of famine. "Literally, a plague of locusts," the actor says. "It was biblical." A Syrian that escaped a plague of locusts he says, does that sound like the "famine during the Assyrian genocide" to you? The only famine due to a plague of locusts is the Famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here /info/en/?search=1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. This did not affect the Assyrians/Assyrian Genocide.
"A source that requires payment to see anything is not a reliable source. Those sources have nothing to do with this discussion and do not prove he is not Assyrians anyways". Yes they are and yes they do, they very much prove he was not Assyrian. You are denying it because you are being disruptive
"Provide a source for him saying what exactly? All I said was Assyrians lived in majority Arab populated cities such as Damascus. You are the one who is trying to connect cities with his ethnicity. What city you come from has nothing to do with your ethnicity". Again, because Myklos is a small village of 500 people is very unlikely his family was Assyrian and settled there before emigrating to US. Because of that you need a source were Murray Abraham himself clarifies this unlikable event.
"The reliable sources say he is Assyrian". False, there are way more higher quality and primary sources that state his family was Syrian and belonged to the Greek Orthodox church so in reality you are giving undue weight to a secondary non-realiable source prone to mistakes/misinforming due to their lack of research/knowledge. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 13:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
"Your sources do not say Greek which is literally your entire argument" In the El Paso source here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ it states that Murray Abraham and his brother were altar boys in the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church near their home in El Paso. You can read in the obituary of his aunt the family belonged to the St. George's Antiochian Orthodox Church in El Paso. Tx https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se
In the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church of El Paso, Texas website here https://www.stgeorge-elpaso.org/ you can read it says "St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America located in El Paso, TX". You can read in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America wikipage here /info/en/?search=Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America where it says and I quote "the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch in the United States"
The sources say his paternal grandfather fled due to famine (says nothing about Mount Lebanon), and that his grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000 and I provided many sources for that and can provide many more. Also the sources say he started off in a church similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox and that it is Antioach.
You keep on playing with words and ignore the evidence in most of the reliable sources. The only thing you have is your argument that in one source it is said his family belongs to the Syrian Orthodox Church which according to you its a sure thing its referring to the Syriac Orthodox church since it starting meaning the same in 2000.
The information I provided you about the St. George Antiochian church the family belongs to clearly makes it a Antiochian Greek Orthodox church not a Syriac Orthodox one. And in the 2016 interview here (Murray states he is 77 years old in that interview) https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php he refers to his church as Antiochian Orthodox which today is also known as the /info/en/?search=Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Antioch as you can read in its wikipage. Why didnt he refer to it as Syriac Orthodox in 2016 which is its current name since 2000 as you say and as can be read here /info/en/?search=Syriac_Orthodox_Church?
You keep on claiming that his father was Assyrian. Then how come he has always said himself his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria as can be seen in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ confirmed as well by the two obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father? How come he himself has never said his family was Assyrian in any of his interviews?
You keep saying that the famine he refers to is not the famine of Mount Lebanon, when he said that the famine his family flew from was due to a plague of locusts here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 and the only famine caused by a plague of locusts during those years was the famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here /info/en/?search=1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. In /info/en/?search=Great_Famine_of_Mount_Lebanon it says and I quote "Some of the areas hit with no documentation include Tyre, Zahle, Akkar & Bint Jbeil". The area of Akkar in northern Lebanon and Wadi Al-Nasara where Myklos is in todays Syria were both one region and Wadi Al-Nasara split from Akkar only after the creation of Greater Lebanon in 1920 as you can read in the 4th last paragraph here https://www.dailystar.com.lb/GetArticleBody.aspx?id=270679&fromgoogle=1, so no the famine of Mount Lebanon did not only affect the Maronites but pretty much everyone in the area.
If you keep distorting what the most reliable sources says and adding your own original research and stating your opinions or seriously contested assertions as facts without adding new sources violating /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:OR and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view I will be reporting you for disruption. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 21:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary official government documents such as birth/marriage/death certificates as well as obituaries can be used as reliable sources for biographies, except things like trial transcripts (which familyseach does not provide) and documents that reveal private matters such as the date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources
Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies also as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources Since Murray Abraham has already mentioned his father emigrated from Syria, using obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father as primary sources to augment those secondary sources where Murray Abraham says that is acceptable.
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research". In situation like this one regarding Murray Abraham's paternal origins, using official documentation to add further clarification about the matter is allowed.
Also as per As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided". All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors".
Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide official documents from the National Archives that add valuable information in cases like this where secondary questionable sources floating around the internet contradict sources that state what the person in question and his family has said about his/their origins/ethnicity. Other things in sites like Familysearch and Ancestry.com such as user generated content (family trees created by users for example) are obviously not reliable but you cant say everything in those sites is not allowed in Wikipedia. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 14:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
It says "exercise extreme caution in using primary sources", it does not say do not use primary sources at all.
It says "do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person". "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "specific facts may be taken from primary sources"
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them"
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source "A primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study. It serves as an original source of information about the topic"
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#History "In contexts such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources and that "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"
The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing.
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Finding_primary_sources "Although many primary sources remain in private hands, others are located in archives, libraries, museums, historical societies, and special collections".
Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide access of official documents found in the National Archives and the ones I have used do not reveal "personal details, such as date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" but information about deceased members of the family of the person.
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses "In many fields and contexts, such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources if possible, and "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"
Again, The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 16:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
I think it is fairly clear that Abraham's grandfather was of the Syriac Orthodox Church, as the source states. But when they immigrated to these United States, they became members of an Eastern Orthodox Church, the Antiochian one. So it isn't at all the same communion which they left behind. I think it is a disservice to readers to leave them with the ambiguous "Orthodox Church" when the sources are crystal clear about what types they joined. Elizium23 ( talk) 20:31, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
"I started out in an Orthodox church, the same as the Russian and Greek Orthodox. It's Antiochian" [1]
JJNito197 ( talk) 20:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Should F. Murray Abraham's article state that he is Assyrian? Henanton ( talk) 00:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
In the wiki page of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the last sentence of the first paragraph of section Name and Identity it says (with source) and I quote "Since 1922, the term "Syrian" started being used for things named after the Syrian Federation. Hence, in 2000, the Holy Synod ruled that the church be named as "Syriac Orthodox Church" after the Syriac language, the official liturgical language of the church." which is the angle with which you want to keep shouting Assyrian here and everywhere.
The article that mentions his grandfather was a chanter in the Syrian Orthodox Church is from 2007 as can be seen here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469. So how come it doesnt say his grandfather was a chanter in the Syriac Orthodox Church since by then in 2007 the church was already going by the name Syriac Orthodox Church to detach itself from the Syrian association (as in today's Syria) and therefore not confuse readers? Oh wait, I already know your answer: your going to say well back in 1910 when he was a chanter it was called the Syrian Orthodox Church. With disruptive editors like you no evidence and no amount of sources will ever be enough.
The only thing you "have" and want to manipulate to push your POV is your play of words and interpretations. Now you have taken your disruption and incompetence to do the same with Terrence Malick's article https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terrence_Malick&action=history. You will be reported as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22? Chris O' Hare ( talk) 17:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Was F. Murray Abraham's paternal grandfather a priest in the:
A. Syriac Orthodox Church
OR
B. Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch Henanton ( talk) 06:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
It would be nice to change the photo 23.171.224.128 ( talk) 03:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
According to a notice published in the New York Times, his wife died on November 19, 2022: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/nytimes/name/kate-abraham-obituary?id=38206466 73.37.46.243 ( talk) 10:33, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
F. Murray Abraham article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
If you're only going to make a partial list, why not include "The Name of the Rose"? 129.177.138.102 22:15, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
F. Murray Abraham was not given a credit in the "Bonfire Of The Vanities" for his role as Mayor Abe Weiss. His role as mayor of New York included numerous scenes and a fair amount of dialog. Why would an Academy Award winning actor not be credited in a movie where he clearly had more than just a small part?
IMDB, a source we cite, says he was born "Fahrid Murray Abraham", yet the article says he was born "Frederico Abrammo Monteglini". Can anyone explain this discrepancy and confirm his true birth name? JackofOz 13:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I found a link to F. Murray from the list of Arab-Americans, but here it says he is from Italian heritage, so what is it?
Here is what [1]says:
"His grandfather was a legendary singer in his village in Syria, and his father was the only son to survive the famine in Syria during WWI. His father emigrated, met and married an Italian-American woman, and Abraham was born as WWII started gearing up" I will try edit this article -- christos7 23:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
He is not Arab-American, he is ethnically Assyrian and Italian.
He ISN'T an Arab. Christ...
According to an interview on the Diane Rehm show on 15 October 2012, both he and his father have the first name Frederick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.154.237.4 ( talk) 15:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't know much about Mr Abraham's work. I see that his mother was "an Italian American, the daughter of an immigrant", and that he has appeared in many films with titles (and I'm guessing, dialogue) in Italian. Does anybody have a cite on his level of fluency in the Italian language? -- 201.50.251.197 14:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm hoping someone can add a different photo of FMA. Using a photo of him made up to look old in Amadeus doesn't really tell you what he looks like. Perhaps someone can find a different photo of him from that film? Thanks. Lafong 19:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
(Let's keep this discussion civil, please.) The current photo of F.Murray and fan probably isn't the best either. MrYdobon ( talk) 16:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
F Murray has narrated a ton of "Nature" documentaries. You can hardly watch Nature anymore without hearing his resonant baritone.
This needs added to the article. 67.170.160.194 ( talk) 06:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I was a friend of F. Murray Abraham's extended family in Pittsburgh. Neither Abraham nor his relatives are Iraqi. They are Syrians. They are Antiochian Orthodox Christians but are not called Assyrians. They refer to themselves like anyone else from Syria, namely "Syrian." No Syrian calls themselves "Assyrian". Why shy away from the word Syrian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 ( talk) 04:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Also I was baptized Syrian Orthodox. I never say I am Assyrian Christian or Assyrian Orthodox , I say Syrian Christian or Syrian Orthodox Christian. People who write these articles are reading to much Wiki history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 ( talk) 05:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
He is an Assyrian and a member of the Syriac Orthodox Church, Assyrian is an ethnie and Syriac Orthodox is a Christian denomination. He is not an arab. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000719/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm Elvis214 ( talk) 21:54, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Assyria is an ancient kingdom that lasted until 650 BC. Although it covered a large area it is considered to be in Iraq. Also, Syriac is not what Syrian Christians are called. They are called Syrian Orthodox Christians or Antiochian Orthodox. "Syriac" is not really used. No Christian Syrian or even muslim Syrian would ever call themselves Assyrian. It's like calling a Syrian a "Babylonian"
He's not "Assyrian" he's Syrian. Just like Steve Jobs and Jerry Seinfeld. No one calls themselves Assyrian. That was an ancient empire. It's like calling French people Normans or Greek people Athenians or Spartans
You don’t know shit, Syrian is a nationality, not an ethnicity. While Assyrian is an ethnicity. There are ethnic Assyrians Syriac Christian’s from Syria and Iraq too, they speak the Syriac Aramaic language with different dialects, while the majority of Syria beeing Arab Muslims. People called as Assyrian syriac or Chaldean are the same ethnic group, with a own aramaic language and abjad own churches and own history. They are not Arabs.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on F. Murray Abraham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The article says "He gained visibility voicing a talking bunch of grapes in a series of television commercials for Fruit of the Loom underwear.[10]" Is this a joke? If not, a better phrase could be found .. e.g. "gained more attention" or "became well known as" or something - gaining visibility through voice work just sounds daft. Or is it some sneaky vandalism? Jabberwock359 ( talk) 12:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
If we look at the direct primary documentation (census records, birth certificates and obituary of his mother) and the facts about his father and himself that has come out out of Murray Abraham's mouth we can know for sure his father came from Ottoman Syria
Here is what is know for sure coming from the above sources/documentation:
-His paternal grandparents Murry Abraham and Fadia Abraham (nee Albert according to family trees at Ancestry) and father Fred (born in 1915-1916) came from Ottoman Syria (usually written just as Syria or Syrian Republic in most censuses and certificates, and does not necessarily present day Syria) and settled in Fort City northeast of Pittsburg in the 1920s when his father Fred was 5 years old (although a later record indicates that he was actually 9 years old at that time)
Fred's death certificate https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JR4M-DWL
Family trees at Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1030/?name=Murry_Abraham&birth=_pennsylvania-usa_41&pcat=42&spouse=Fadia
-Murray, who was born Murry, was born 1939-1940 in Ambridge, northwest of Pittsburg. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89MT-PQVN?i=8&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKQQ8-SJF
Murray's mother Josephine Stello Abraham obituary https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/elpasotimes/obituary.aspx?n=josephine-abraham&pid=156404738&fhid=7166
In Murray's and his mother own words saying his father came from Syria, was a Christian Syrian and that he is of Syrian ancestry. He also states his father came to US in the 1920s due to a famine.
https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php
About the famine in Abraham's words https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html
The problem is that no documents nor him as stated WHERE in Ottoman Syria his father came from nor has any documents nor him stated his father was of Assyrian ethnicity. But using the facts that we have from the documents and what he himself has said here is what we can deduct:
-Murray has never mentioned anywhere the Assyrian Genocide. If his father was Assyrian wouldn't he have mentioned the Assyrian Genocide in any of his interviews?? Instead he says his father escaped a famine in Syria in the early 20s. Well the only famine that we know of is the Great Famine of Mount Lebanon, which affected only the people of modern day Lebanon not Syrians nor Assyrians. Just from this fact its pretty clear his father came from Mount Lebanon in Ottoman Syria not present day Syria.
-Murray and his mother stated that his grandfather was a priest and a legendary chanter/singer in the Orthodox Church in Ottoman Syria before the 1920s. This means he resided in Ottoman Syria for quite some time before the 1920s.
The Assyrians were not living in Ottoman Syria at the time Murray's grandparents left to the US. They were resettling to North-East present Syria from Upper Mesopotamia in Turkey ( Tur Abdin and Harput/Kharphut) which was not Ottoman Syria at the time but simply called south east Turkey or Ottoman Empire. They resettled to present day Lebanon from those areas as well as Adana (French Cicilia) after the famine and the blockade had passed around the 1930s as you can see they dont appear listed in the census of Syria nor Lebanon before the 1930s. /info/en/?search=List_of_Assyrian_settlements#Syria
/info/en/?search=Assyrian%E2%80%93Chaldean%E2%80%93Syriac_diaspora#Lebanon
The Syriac Orthodox Church that the Assyrians are adherents to was located in Tur Abdin, Turkey but not in Ottoman Syria during those times and only arrived to Homs in Ottoman Syria in 1933 later moving to Damascus in 1949. So his grandfather was then a priest of the Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church in Mount Lebanon, Syria which is not the Orthodox church followed by the Assyrians.
-The Assyrians that settled in America before the 1940s all came from Urmia in Persia, southeast Turkey and Iraq. https://www.nineveh.com/ASSYRIAN-AMERICANS.html It was only after the 1950s that Assyrians from Lebanon and Syria migrated to America due to the conflicts in the area.
-His grandparents and father settled in Pittsburg in the 1920s. There is no documented history of any Assyrians settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s. The Assyrians that settled in the US in the 1920s mainly settled in Detroit and Chicago and were followers of the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Presbyterian Church not the Antiochian Orthodox Church. /info/en/?search=Assyrian_Americans
There is however documented history of Lebanese settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s https://books.google.se/books?id=EVxkaw0udDwC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=lebanese+in+pittsburgh&source=bl&ots=qL6YRbD7v8&sig=ACfU3U2xe_yYD-oS0-QGIjHc4VWGfc1qlw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIj7X71snoAhUtiYsKHdjvDI84HhDoATAFegQIDBAo#v=onepage&q=lebanese%20in%20pittsburgh&f=false
https://popularpittsburgh.com/pittsburgh-arabs/
-His grandparents and father later settled in El Paso, Texas in the 1940s. There is no documented history of Assyrians settling in Texas during those times. Some of the Assyrians that settled in Detroit and Chicago coming from Turkey and Iran due to the Assyrian Genocide latter moved to San Diego, California and Arizona
/info/en/?search=Assyrian_Americans#In_Michigan
There is however documented evidence of Lebanese and Syrians (mainly Lebanese though) settling in El Paso. In fact two of the largest clothing companies started by Lebanese were founded in Texas: Haggar Clothing and Farah Clothing (founded in El Paso). https://texasalmanac.com/topics/culture/lebanesesyrians/lebanesesyrian-texans F. Murray Abraham himself worked in the Farah Clothing factory owned by a Lebanese family before launching a career in acting https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue/198605/the.arab.americans.htm.
The most reliable indirect sources which have talked about Murray Abraham's ancestry, meaning books not random pages with an Assyrian editor/Assyrian agenda, or non reliable websites/internet pages, have referred to him as of Syro-Lebanese descent, not just of Syrian much less of Assyrian descent:
In fact in one of the very first articles written about him that came out in the New York Times in 1979 before he became famous and won an Oscar in 1985, he was said to be of Lebanese and Italian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/12/22/archives/teibeles-demon-feels-sure-he-is-going-to-be-famous-a-matter-of.html. Perhaps it was after he won the Oscar that the Assyrians started spreading that he was one of their own despite that fact that all the evidence so far stills points out to what was said then in 1979.
I think the reason F. Murray Abraham continues to identify as a Syrian instead of as Lebanese (but never as Assyrian) is because he perhaps was never able to find out where in Ottoman Syria his grandparents and father came from since as he himself has stated they spoke very little English and did not like to talk about their origins. But the information he seemed to have been able to gather from them and the facts he has shared about his family life (where they settled and moved to) does point out his grandparents came from Mount Lebanon due to the famine there and therefore he is of Lebanese descent not Syrian nor Assyrian.
Chris O' Hare (
talk)
16:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
All the primary evidence meaning official documents and things said by the Murray Abraham and Abraham's family themselves such as religious affiliation of the family contradict any secondary evidence such as online articles that assign Murray Assyrian descent. Seems like most of those online articles that assign him Assyrian descent 1) Have not examined carefully the primary evidence 2) Do not seem to know much about religious affiliation of the ethnoreligious groups of the Middle East as well as the history of their respective migrations/diaspora 3) Just repeat what they see in Wikipedia which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which are not the same thing. Yes the Assyrians belong to the Syriac Orthodox Church but that is not the same as the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church Chris O' Hare ( talk) 16:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Besides the already discussed information in the obituary of Adele Hendricks Abraham (1923-2019),aunt of Murray Abraham, it is stated she, three of her sisters and her brother Fred Abraham, father of Murray Abrahm were born in Myklos/ Muqlus in todays Syria. Link- https://obits.ocregister.com/obituaries/orangecounty/obituary.aspx?n=adele-hendricks-bobbie&pid=194874159
Death certificate and obituary of Marion Abraham Unsell (1914-1998), aunt of Murray Abraham, who died in El Paso in 1988 where it says she was born in Myklos in today's Syria https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS1-JH4Y https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se Birth of one of her children https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VD4D-638
Fred Tony Abraham (b. 1916-1920 in Ford City), father of Murray Abraham, settled in El Paso, Texas https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K5WK-F8F and died in Texas in 1995 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/106807003/fred-t-abraham
He was born in Miklos, Syria according to his World War II draft here https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2238&h=6910133&tid=&pid=&queryId=8f322267c21ddd4f2b3d2d27377c88eb&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bVu429&_phstart=successSource (requires a trial membership or paid subscription to see it)
Census of Murray Abraham grandfather with his children in 1930 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XCZW-6CG Murray was born in 1877 and immigrated to US in 1897 and his wife Fida (Hilda) was born 1890 and immigrated in in 1925 with the children Census of Hilda Abraham (here it says she was born circa 1894) with some her daughters in 1940 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQ8Q-5TY Chris O' Hare ( talk) 22:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Sources such as Commonwealth magazine, Arabamerican and IMDB are not legitimate and reliable sources. In the sources already provided in his article, Murray Abraham himself has said his father emigrated from Syria and that is family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church (Assyrians do not belong to this religious affiliation as discussed already in the Talk Page). All the official documentation of Murray Abraham's family say his family emigrated from Myklos/Muqlus, Syria where his father was born.
Henanton Here in Wikipedia, it is stated to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources" as per first sentence of second paragraph in /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons With the highest quality in for Historical matters being official documents, autobiographies and oral and videos as per first and second sentence of /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Books/Peer-reviewed journals as per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Magazines and Newspapers from respectable publishing house as the last source if the first ones are not available as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters, in the field of history and biographies, the older and closer the source is to the person involved with the event, the more weight it has over secondary sources.
You cannot give a secondary source (especially unrealiable ones) undue weight over primary sources such as official documents (obituaries, birth/death/marriage certificates) and what the subject himself has said in oral interviews in articles as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. You also cannot say all reliable sources say he is Assyrian which is completely false since the three reliable sources in the article https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php and https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html (and many more) say his grandfather and father were Syrian.
Claiming that Murray Abraham's family converted into the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church without providing any source for that is WP:OR and to keep ignoring that Murray Abraham himself says in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html that his family escaped famine in Syria (which means the famine of Mount Lebanon since there wasnt any other famine but that in the Levant during those years) saying that there was famine in the Assyrian Genocide as well is disruption and OR
The primary and more reliable sources state:
1) That his father and aunts were born in Myklos/Muqlus, Syria. But you say that has nothing to do with his ethnicity ignoring that no Assyrians ever settled in the Valley of the Christians (Wadi Al-Nasara) during 1910-1915 when his father was born there. You just want to assume and use your non-reliable source to come to that conclusion
2) That his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church. But you say they converted I assume from the Syriac Orthodox Church to which Assyrians belong to but dont provide any source for that
3) That his family escaped famine in Syria. But you you claim there was famine during the Assyrian genocide without providing any source where Murray Abraham says his family escaped famine during the Assyrian genocide. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 22:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Commonwealth is reliable and there are tons of sources that state he is Assyrian. Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born. Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus. /info/en/?search=Damascus#Demographics Henanton ( talk) 00:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? Well he has never said he was Assyrian ever. All he has ever said himself is that his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria. Do you have a source where he himself states he is Assyrian or his fahter/grandfather was?
The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Two of the three sources (the two obituaries) do not require payment, and the other requires a free trial. Stop wasting my time by choosing to disregard or ignore the sources provided or saying that official documentation such as obituaries and WWII drafts are non reliable sources which makes you a disruptive user as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing.
Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? Then you need to provide a source where he himself says his family was Assyrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, otherwise you are just pushing your OR here. Murray Abraham as always said his family was Syrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, which is not surprising if they came from Muqlus in Wadi Al-Nasara.
There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. But Murray Abraham himself has said his family escaped the famine in Syria (which is the same as the famine of Mount Lebanon which affected the area of Akkar/Wadi Al Nasara as well since its very close to the border with Lebanon in the north)
You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born Obituaries and WWII drafts are unreliable sources? This show you are not competent enough to be editing biographies then as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22?
Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus Then you need to provide a source where Murray Abraham says that is the case with his family which you have not violating WP:OR Chris O' Hare ( talk) 23:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
"He does not state his paternal grandfather belonged to the Greek church". Well his mother states his grandfather was a priest in Syria (not Assyria) so he must have belonged to the Greek church as well as can be read here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ You cant question or add doubt to what a reliable source says and add your own questioning and original research without providing a new source because that is a violating a per distortion of sources /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" Since there is no reliable secondary source such as an independent academic review from a reputable genealogist such as lets say for example American genealogist Henry Louis Gates, then official documents, an autobiography and/or the oral or video recordings/interviews in reputable sources become the main sources in this until a reputable secondary source debates or questions it.
You have not added a reputable academic secondary source from an expert but a non-reliable source prone to mistakes such as Commonwealth Magazine which have not examined carefully the primary evidence and is very likely just repeating what they see in Wikipedia before which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is always the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which is not case and also means the Antionchian Greek Orthodox Church.
"He only attended one in America". Says who? You? Where is your source for that? Because the El Paso Times source says his grandfather was a priest in Syria not Assyria.
"The Syriac Orthodox is also called Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East. If his grandfather belonged to the Greek Antioach then he would have said that". Stop asking me to cite that the sky is blue which also makes you disruptive user as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue If his grandfather and father belonged to the Syriac Orthodox Church and then Murray and his family converted to the Greek Orthodox Church (which is not the usual normal thing) he would have probably said that too which he has not. Since you have no souce for that that is your WP:OR.
"Also, the other source says his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syriac church is also called that as well and mentioned on the Wikipedia page /info/en/?search=Syriac_Orthodox_Church". Yeah and so does the Greek Orthodox Church which is what Murray Abraham himself has stated his family belonged to. You keep going against what Murray Abraham himself has said about that and explicitly clarified with his own words.
"He probably never brought up Syriac because no one knows what Syriac means and would draw blank stares". This is your opinion, here in Wikipedia we dont care about opinions, we discuss sources only
"I said Assyrians convert all the time and there are Assyrians that are not Christian as well. You keep talking about your sources but they say nothing about him not being Assyrian". Just like there are no sources out there where he himself has stated he is Assyrian except non-reliable secondary sources that dont match up what the primary sources say.
"What do those obituaries even have to do with anything? His relatives being born in a small Christian village in Syria makes no difference here". Oh yes it does, along with him saying his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church, its another peace of evidence that confirms he is not Assyrian since Myklos is a town of like 500 people and there is no source that says there were any Assyrians in that small village during 1910-1916 when his father Fred was born there.
"He only attended the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church in America because there were no Syriac Churches where he lived. People attend different churches all the time. Syriac churches in America are incredibly rare". This is your own WP:OR not backed by any source where Murray Abraham himself says that.
"Your source clearly states his family came to the United States to escape famine. It says abolutely nothing about the famine, or the famine of Mount Lebanon. There were many fmaines happening the middle east at that time, including for Assyrians". In this source https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 It says and I quote "In fact, "F" stands for Fahrid, and the name Abraham is an Anglicization of Ibrahim, and his father was a Christian Syrian who emigrated with his family around 1920 because of famine. "Literally, a plague of locusts," the actor says. "It was biblical." A Syrian that escaped a plague of locusts he says, does that sound like the "famine during the Assyrian genocide" to you? The only famine due to a plague of locusts is the Famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here /info/en/?search=1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. This did not affect the Assyrians/Assyrian Genocide.
"A source that requires payment to see anything is not a reliable source. Those sources have nothing to do with this discussion and do not prove he is not Assyrians anyways". Yes they are and yes they do, they very much prove he was not Assyrian. You are denying it because you are being disruptive
"Provide a source for him saying what exactly? All I said was Assyrians lived in majority Arab populated cities such as Damascus. You are the one who is trying to connect cities with his ethnicity. What city you come from has nothing to do with your ethnicity". Again, because Myklos is a small village of 500 people is very unlikely his family was Assyrian and settled there before emigrating to US. Because of that you need a source were Murray Abraham himself clarifies this unlikable event.
"The reliable sources say he is Assyrian". False, there are way more higher quality and primary sources that state his family was Syrian and belonged to the Greek Orthodox church so in reality you are giving undue weight to a secondary non-realiable source prone to mistakes/misinforming due to their lack of research/knowledge. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 13:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
"Your sources do not say Greek which is literally your entire argument" In the El Paso source here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ it states that Murray Abraham and his brother were altar boys in the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church near their home in El Paso. You can read in the obituary of his aunt the family belonged to the St. George's Antiochian Orthodox Church in El Paso. Tx https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se
In the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church of El Paso, Texas website here https://www.stgeorge-elpaso.org/ you can read it says "St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America located in El Paso, TX". You can read in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America wikipage here /info/en/?search=Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America where it says and I quote "the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch in the United States"
The sources say his paternal grandfather fled due to famine (says nothing about Mount Lebanon), and that his grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000 and I provided many sources for that and can provide many more. Also the sources say he started off in a church similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox and that it is Antioach.
You keep on playing with words and ignore the evidence in most of the reliable sources. The only thing you have is your argument that in one source it is said his family belongs to the Syrian Orthodox Church which according to you its a sure thing its referring to the Syriac Orthodox church since it starting meaning the same in 2000.
The information I provided you about the St. George Antiochian church the family belongs to clearly makes it a Antiochian Greek Orthodox church not a Syriac Orthodox one. And in the 2016 interview here (Murray states he is 77 years old in that interview) https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php he refers to his church as Antiochian Orthodox which today is also known as the /info/en/?search=Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Antioch as you can read in its wikipage. Why didnt he refer to it as Syriac Orthodox in 2016 which is its current name since 2000 as you say and as can be read here /info/en/?search=Syriac_Orthodox_Church?
You keep on claiming that his father was Assyrian. Then how come he has always said himself his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria as can be seen in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ confirmed as well by the two obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father? How come he himself has never said his family was Assyrian in any of his interviews?
You keep saying that the famine he refers to is not the famine of Mount Lebanon, when he said that the famine his family flew from was due to a plague of locusts here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 and the only famine caused by a plague of locusts during those years was the famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here /info/en/?search=1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. In /info/en/?search=Great_Famine_of_Mount_Lebanon it says and I quote "Some of the areas hit with no documentation include Tyre, Zahle, Akkar & Bint Jbeil". The area of Akkar in northern Lebanon and Wadi Al-Nasara where Myklos is in todays Syria were both one region and Wadi Al-Nasara split from Akkar only after the creation of Greater Lebanon in 1920 as you can read in the 4th last paragraph here https://www.dailystar.com.lb/GetArticleBody.aspx?id=270679&fromgoogle=1, so no the famine of Mount Lebanon did not only affect the Maronites but pretty much everyone in the area.
If you keep distorting what the most reliable sources says and adding your own original research and stating your opinions or seriously contested assertions as facts without adding new sources violating /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:OR and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view I will be reporting you for disruption. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 21:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary official government documents such as birth/marriage/death certificates as well as obituaries can be used as reliable sources for biographies, except things like trial transcripts (which familyseach does not provide) and documents that reveal private matters such as the date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources
Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies also as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources Since Murray Abraham has already mentioned his father emigrated from Syria, using obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father as primary sources to augment those secondary sources where Murray Abraham says that is acceptable.
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research". In situation like this one regarding Murray Abraham's paternal origins, using official documentation to add further clarification about the matter is allowed.
Also as per As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided". All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors".
Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide official documents from the National Archives that add valuable information in cases like this where secondary questionable sources floating around the internet contradict sources that state what the person in question and his family has said about his/their origins/ethnicity. Other things in sites like Familysearch and Ancestry.com such as user generated content (family trees created by users for example) are obviously not reliable but you cant say everything in those sites is not allowed in Wikipedia. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 14:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
It says "exercise extreme caution in using primary sources", it does not say do not use primary sources at all.
It says "do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person". "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "specific facts may be taken from primary sources"
As per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them"
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source "A primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study. It serves as an original source of information about the topic"
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#History "In contexts such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources and that "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"
The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing.
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Finding_primary_sources "Although many primary sources remain in private hands, others are located in archives, libraries, museums, historical societies, and special collections".
Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide access of official documents found in the National Archives and the ones I have used do not reveal "personal details, such as date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" but information about deceased members of the family of the person.
As per /info/en/?search=Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses "In many fields and contexts, such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources if possible, and "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"
Again, The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing. Chris O' Hare ( talk) 16:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
I think it is fairly clear that Abraham's grandfather was of the Syriac Orthodox Church, as the source states. But when they immigrated to these United States, they became members of an Eastern Orthodox Church, the Antiochian one. So it isn't at all the same communion which they left behind. I think it is a disservice to readers to leave them with the ambiguous "Orthodox Church" when the sources are crystal clear about what types they joined. Elizium23 ( talk) 20:31, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
"I started out in an Orthodox church, the same as the Russian and Greek Orthodox. It's Antiochian" [1]
JJNito197 ( talk) 20:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Should F. Murray Abraham's article state that he is Assyrian? Henanton ( talk) 00:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
In the wiki page of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the last sentence of the first paragraph of section Name and Identity it says (with source) and I quote "Since 1922, the term "Syrian" started being used for things named after the Syrian Federation. Hence, in 2000, the Holy Synod ruled that the church be named as "Syriac Orthodox Church" after the Syriac language, the official liturgical language of the church." which is the angle with which you want to keep shouting Assyrian here and everywhere.
The article that mentions his grandfather was a chanter in the Syrian Orthodox Church is from 2007 as can be seen here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469. So how come it doesnt say his grandfather was a chanter in the Syriac Orthodox Church since by then in 2007 the church was already going by the name Syriac Orthodox Church to detach itself from the Syrian association (as in today's Syria) and therefore not confuse readers? Oh wait, I already know your answer: your going to say well back in 1910 when he was a chanter it was called the Syrian Orthodox Church. With disruptive editors like you no evidence and no amount of sources will ever be enough.
The only thing you "have" and want to manipulate to push your POV is your play of words and interpretations. Now you have taken your disruption and incompetence to do the same with Terrence Malick's article https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terrence_Malick&action=history. You will be reported as per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22? Chris O' Hare ( talk) 17:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Was F. Murray Abraham's paternal grandfather a priest in the:
A. Syriac Orthodox Church
OR
B. Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch Henanton ( talk) 06:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
It would be nice to change the photo 23.171.224.128 ( talk) 03:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
According to a notice published in the New York Times, his wife died on November 19, 2022: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/nytimes/name/kate-abraham-obituary?id=38206466 73.37.46.243 ( talk) 10:33, 24 November 2022 (UTC)