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This article contains a translation of Vernichtung durch Arbeit from de.wikipedia. |
"commonly digging ditches around the camp and then levelling them or excavating earth and transporting it by foot to the other side of the camp." I think you need a quotation for this... Unsigned comment by User:Andreasegde
200.206.226.181 ( talk) 04:27, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I want references to this principle. I could find none online and the supposed "principle" seems an invention to me. Smith2006 23:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
so does everyone else, but Halibutt has been in the mood lately that he thinks he can state anything he likes, and everyone else must provide references to remove it, if you don't cite anything that says that it didn't happen, well he reverts you-- Jadger 01:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: I wanted to remove the above piece of slander in accordance with WP:NPA, but Jadger's been inserting it here repeatedly. Be advised then that it's little more than a mere lie, intended to spoil my good name.// Halibu tt 21:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not published yet, but I recently attended a trial in St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, in which a surviving jew from the Flossenburg camp testified to the existence of this policy. I could provide a citation once the decision is published; style of cause is Canada (The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) v. Jura Skomatchuk and Canada (The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) v. Josef Furman. A Dr. Terry, survivor of the camp, testified that the work policy was literally named "extermination through work." I would also suggest tracking down the text from a letter from Oswald Pohl to Heinrich Himmler, dated April 30, 1942, discussing work policies in the General Government camps (partial citation: Nuremberg Exhibit Doc. R-129, vol. 38, pp. 362-367). Regretably, I don't have a copy of this document.-- Rumplefurskin 17:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"Annihialation (not extermination) through work" was not only a de facto policy but an explicitly articulated one. Doubters are directed to Michael Thad Allen's superb book The Business of Genocide, where the subject is covered exhuastively. It needs noting, though, that it was not applied to all, industrially employed concentration camp inmates, but primarily to Jews, Gypsies and for a while to Soviet POWs. It was rarely applied to other categories of prisoners, although exceptions exist. The most infamous being the Dora camp, where the V2 rockets were produced. It was never applied to specialist prisoner-workers. It also needs noting that not all instances where work was used unproductively for strictly penal purposes were cases of Annihialation Through Work, just as not all punishments meted out in Concentration Camps was lethal. More over Halibut is mistaken in attributing economically useless work to subcamps. Subcamps were usually established in order to bring prison labour nearer to an economically valuble operation. Economically useless work was least likely to occur there. Soz
a user just added the category named "unfree labour" but I dispute that. this was free labour, the Nazis didn't pay them anything, unless you count the cost of food, then it would be "cheap labour" maybe.
-- Jadger 07:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
"unfree" labor means labor by people who are not free, in the political sense. It's an umbrella category covering the various systems of slavery and serfdom. 128.148.38.26 15:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Modern extermination through labour was invented in Soviet Union, in 1917, not in nazi Germany. Lenin ordered the killing of about 35,000,000 people, in less than 7 years of government. Agre22 ( talk) 13:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)agre22
Not sure how that's possible. That's far greater than the sum total of people who died in the Soviet Union for every reason during that period, and longer. For your figures to be correct, that means that every person that died in the USSR, be it disease, natural causes, or the war and famine started by the Whites, that Lenin ordered each and every one of them, as well as the extra ten million or so who DIDN'T die, but seems to be a number you just pulled out of nowhere. The concept of extermination through labour was exclusively a Nazi one. The Soviets needed places to house prisoners of war, and the conditions everywhere in the country were terrible, so why would a labour camp be any better? There was no official policy of exterminating these prisoners. - p1nkfl0yd, 14:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.81.59.250 ( talk)
Under the header 'Victims' this article reads:
'Approximately six million Jews, 80,000 sick and handicapped people of German origin, 500,000 Sinti, Romanies, and members of other persecuted "gypsy" groups as well as seven million Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in concentration camps were killed altogether. It is impossible to ensure that these numbers are exact, as the Nazis often kept no records of their victims.'
However horrendous the truth is of this outcome of the war, I fail to see how this has anything to do with annihilation through labor? Is the writer / are the writers suggesting that people who got gassed or were shot, or beaten to death etc. etc. etc. were also victims of annihilation through labor? This needs to change or be removed. Mlodewijk ( talk) 22:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that the article is trying to create the incorrect impression that all forced labor under the Nazis was "extermination through labor". Well, it's pretty well attested that Jewish workers were mistreated and had high death rates, and that was the explicit intent - gas chambers for some, death through labor for others. But the majority of forced laborers were not Jewish, they were Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and all sorts of others who were working under various levels of compulsion. It was not a good life, but it was not "extermination" in any sense. 76.24.104.52 ( talk) 03:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I've noticed a sentence in the lead that says, "Whether it formed the basis for the exploitation of forced labor in the Soviet Gulag is controversial." What ignoramus wrote that? It's very well documented that it was indeed the official policy in the Soviet Gulag to work the prisoners to death, as evidenced by them being forced to do impossibly hard labor on a starvation diet -- the only people who would argue that it was in any way "controversial" would be the same Marxist diehards who still believe that collectivization was a necessary policy for the Soviets to follow at the time. Get real, people! 146.74.230.99 ( talk) 23:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to be randomly throwing together two particular instances of forced labour, with little or no justification for choosing them and only them. "Extermination through labor" was the name of the Nazi policy alone. The Soviets also used forced labour, yes, and that sometimes resulted in the death of the inmates, but there was no official policy of extermination. Is this article meant to discuss cases of forced labour with a clear intent to exterminate the inmates? Then it should only cover the Nazi case. Or is this article meant to discuss every case of forced labour where the conditions were harsh enough that some inmates died? Then I would contend that the subject matter is hopelessly vague, and we should probably add the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, etc. Amerul ( talk) 11:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
To avoid repetitions of the same arguments, let me explain the following. Although the crimes of Stalin's, Mao's or Pol Pot's regimes are obvious and indisputable, not all crimes can be attributed to them. For instance, although Stalin launched the Great Purge, he cannot be accused in mass killing of Jews. By contrast, it was the Stalin's Soviet Army that liberated most death camps.
Similarly, although GULAG was a huge system of labour camps, its primary purpose was not to exterminate people. Even Nazi camps were subdivided onto
extermination (Majdanek, Belzec, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau (not Auschwitz), Sobibor, Treblinka) and
concentration camps (all other camps). Only minor part of scholars call GULAG camps "extermination", and that is why the "Controversial section" is in the article. The extermination through labour system was invented by Nazi and should be presented as such.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 04:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I've noticed that whipping is not discussed much in the article, yet I'm fairly certain that it was an incessant practice. Hoops gza ( talk) 20:22, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I came to this article because I wanted to know about the origin of the term, where it was first used and by whom, whether it status on official documents. That sort of info isn't readily available here. I'm wondering if it is a term that others have applied to Nazi practice or one the Nazis used themselves, or if it appears once or twice in Nazi literature and then has been more extensively applied by others. Hardicanute ( talk) 09:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute
So what was exactly the reason for removing text related to writings by Solzhenitsyn [3]? He widely used this expression ("istrebitel'no-trudovye lagerja", translation: "camps of extermination by labor") in his books. Of course this could be shortened and rephrased. Biophys ( talk) 04:18, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
The sources cited do not mention extermination through labor.-- 5.228.254.68 ( talk) 16:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
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The lead says:
I checked that, and my google scholar search demonstrated that all sources mention the word "Soviet" only in connection to the fact that Soviet civilians or POWs were the victims of this Nazi program (see "Extermination through labour" and "Extermination through labour"). Clearly, all these books and articles describe "Extermination through labour" as some concrete Nazi program. In connection to that, I modified the lead accordingly.
Taking into account that many authors describe Gulag as extermination camps, although many other authors openly disagree with that, I reorganised the article accordingly and put this context to the "Controversy" section.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 23:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Actually, upon reflection, I came to a conclusion that the article cannot combine all cases of deadly labour under the "Extermination through labour" term. I think all of that should be removed as synthesis, or the title should be changed. The second option if not acceptable per our policy that prohibits content forking. Therefore, all materials about deadly forced labour everywhere except in Nazi Germany should be moved to other articles, for example, in the Gulag article. I doubt, however, that we can just move it, because, for example, the statement about a senseless labour in Gulag contradicts to wast majority of sources that state that Gulag was an important part of Soviet economy. I am going to remove this material soon.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 00:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The subject of this page is the deliberate extermination of people through labor, rather than simply their forced/involuntary exploitation which led to death, as typical for the slave labor. We need sources claiming it was a deliberate extermination, rather than exploitation, or that it was literally "extermination through forced labor". I do not see it about the African slave trade and Congo. We are not going to include whole slavery here? My very best wishes ( talk) 18:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article contains a translation of Vernichtung durch Arbeit from de.wikipedia. |
"commonly digging ditches around the camp and then levelling them or excavating earth and transporting it by foot to the other side of the camp." I think you need a quotation for this... Unsigned comment by User:Andreasegde
200.206.226.181 ( talk) 04:27, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I want references to this principle. I could find none online and the supposed "principle" seems an invention to me. Smith2006 23:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
so does everyone else, but Halibutt has been in the mood lately that he thinks he can state anything he likes, and everyone else must provide references to remove it, if you don't cite anything that says that it didn't happen, well he reverts you-- Jadger 01:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: I wanted to remove the above piece of slander in accordance with WP:NPA, but Jadger's been inserting it here repeatedly. Be advised then that it's little more than a mere lie, intended to spoil my good name.// Halibu tt 21:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not published yet, but I recently attended a trial in St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, in which a surviving jew from the Flossenburg camp testified to the existence of this policy. I could provide a citation once the decision is published; style of cause is Canada (The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) v. Jura Skomatchuk and Canada (The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) v. Josef Furman. A Dr. Terry, survivor of the camp, testified that the work policy was literally named "extermination through work." I would also suggest tracking down the text from a letter from Oswald Pohl to Heinrich Himmler, dated April 30, 1942, discussing work policies in the General Government camps (partial citation: Nuremberg Exhibit Doc. R-129, vol. 38, pp. 362-367). Regretably, I don't have a copy of this document.-- Rumplefurskin 17:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"Annihialation (not extermination) through work" was not only a de facto policy but an explicitly articulated one. Doubters are directed to Michael Thad Allen's superb book The Business of Genocide, where the subject is covered exhuastively. It needs noting, though, that it was not applied to all, industrially employed concentration camp inmates, but primarily to Jews, Gypsies and for a while to Soviet POWs. It was rarely applied to other categories of prisoners, although exceptions exist. The most infamous being the Dora camp, where the V2 rockets were produced. It was never applied to specialist prisoner-workers. It also needs noting that not all instances where work was used unproductively for strictly penal purposes were cases of Annihialation Through Work, just as not all punishments meted out in Concentration Camps was lethal. More over Halibut is mistaken in attributing economically useless work to subcamps. Subcamps were usually established in order to bring prison labour nearer to an economically valuble operation. Economically useless work was least likely to occur there. Soz
a user just added the category named "unfree labour" but I dispute that. this was free labour, the Nazis didn't pay them anything, unless you count the cost of food, then it would be "cheap labour" maybe.
-- Jadger 07:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
"unfree" labor means labor by people who are not free, in the political sense. It's an umbrella category covering the various systems of slavery and serfdom. 128.148.38.26 15:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Modern extermination through labour was invented in Soviet Union, in 1917, not in nazi Germany. Lenin ordered the killing of about 35,000,000 people, in less than 7 years of government. Agre22 ( talk) 13:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)agre22
Not sure how that's possible. That's far greater than the sum total of people who died in the Soviet Union for every reason during that period, and longer. For your figures to be correct, that means that every person that died in the USSR, be it disease, natural causes, or the war and famine started by the Whites, that Lenin ordered each and every one of them, as well as the extra ten million or so who DIDN'T die, but seems to be a number you just pulled out of nowhere. The concept of extermination through labour was exclusively a Nazi one. The Soviets needed places to house prisoners of war, and the conditions everywhere in the country were terrible, so why would a labour camp be any better? There was no official policy of exterminating these prisoners. - p1nkfl0yd, 14:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.81.59.250 ( talk)
Under the header 'Victims' this article reads:
'Approximately six million Jews, 80,000 sick and handicapped people of German origin, 500,000 Sinti, Romanies, and members of other persecuted "gypsy" groups as well as seven million Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in concentration camps were killed altogether. It is impossible to ensure that these numbers are exact, as the Nazis often kept no records of their victims.'
However horrendous the truth is of this outcome of the war, I fail to see how this has anything to do with annihilation through labor? Is the writer / are the writers suggesting that people who got gassed or were shot, or beaten to death etc. etc. etc. were also victims of annihilation through labor? This needs to change or be removed. Mlodewijk ( talk) 22:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that the article is trying to create the incorrect impression that all forced labor under the Nazis was "extermination through labor". Well, it's pretty well attested that Jewish workers were mistreated and had high death rates, and that was the explicit intent - gas chambers for some, death through labor for others. But the majority of forced laborers were not Jewish, they were Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and all sorts of others who were working under various levels of compulsion. It was not a good life, but it was not "extermination" in any sense. 76.24.104.52 ( talk) 03:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I've noticed a sentence in the lead that says, "Whether it formed the basis for the exploitation of forced labor in the Soviet Gulag is controversial." What ignoramus wrote that? It's very well documented that it was indeed the official policy in the Soviet Gulag to work the prisoners to death, as evidenced by them being forced to do impossibly hard labor on a starvation diet -- the only people who would argue that it was in any way "controversial" would be the same Marxist diehards who still believe that collectivization was a necessary policy for the Soviets to follow at the time. Get real, people! 146.74.230.99 ( talk) 23:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to be randomly throwing together two particular instances of forced labour, with little or no justification for choosing them and only them. "Extermination through labor" was the name of the Nazi policy alone. The Soviets also used forced labour, yes, and that sometimes resulted in the death of the inmates, but there was no official policy of extermination. Is this article meant to discuss cases of forced labour with a clear intent to exterminate the inmates? Then it should only cover the Nazi case. Or is this article meant to discuss every case of forced labour where the conditions were harsh enough that some inmates died? Then I would contend that the subject matter is hopelessly vague, and we should probably add the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, etc. Amerul ( talk) 11:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
To avoid repetitions of the same arguments, let me explain the following. Although the crimes of Stalin's, Mao's or Pol Pot's regimes are obvious and indisputable, not all crimes can be attributed to them. For instance, although Stalin launched the Great Purge, he cannot be accused in mass killing of Jews. By contrast, it was the Stalin's Soviet Army that liberated most death camps.
Similarly, although GULAG was a huge system of labour camps, its primary purpose was not to exterminate people. Even Nazi camps were subdivided onto
extermination (Majdanek, Belzec, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau (not Auschwitz), Sobibor, Treblinka) and
concentration camps (all other camps). Only minor part of scholars call GULAG camps "extermination", and that is why the "Controversial section" is in the article. The extermination through labour system was invented by Nazi and should be presented as such.--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 04:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I've noticed that whipping is not discussed much in the article, yet I'm fairly certain that it was an incessant practice. Hoops gza ( talk) 20:22, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I came to this article because I wanted to know about the origin of the term, where it was first used and by whom, whether it status on official documents. That sort of info isn't readily available here. I'm wondering if it is a term that others have applied to Nazi practice or one the Nazis used themselves, or if it appears once or twice in Nazi literature and then has been more extensively applied by others. Hardicanute ( talk) 09:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute
So what was exactly the reason for removing text related to writings by Solzhenitsyn [3]? He widely used this expression ("istrebitel'no-trudovye lagerja", translation: "camps of extermination by labor") in his books. Of course this could be shortened and rephrased. Biophys ( talk) 04:18, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
The sources cited do not mention extermination through labor.-- 5.228.254.68 ( talk) 16:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Extermination through labour. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:06, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The lead says:
I checked that, and my google scholar search demonstrated that all sources mention the word "Soviet" only in connection to the fact that Soviet civilians or POWs were the victims of this Nazi program (see "Extermination through labour" and "Extermination through labour"). Clearly, all these books and articles describe "Extermination through labour" as some concrete Nazi program. In connection to that, I modified the lead accordingly.
Taking into account that many authors describe Gulag as extermination camps, although many other authors openly disagree with that, I reorganised the article accordingly and put this context to the "Controversy" section.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 23:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Actually, upon reflection, I came to a conclusion that the article cannot combine all cases of deadly labour under the "Extermination through labour" term. I think all of that should be removed as synthesis, or the title should be changed. The second option if not acceptable per our policy that prohibits content forking. Therefore, all materials about deadly forced labour everywhere except in Nazi Germany should be moved to other articles, for example, in the Gulag article. I doubt, however, that we can just move it, because, for example, the statement about a senseless labour in Gulag contradicts to wast majority of sources that state that Gulag was an important part of Soviet economy. I am going to remove this material soon.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 00:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The subject of this page is the deliberate extermination of people through labor, rather than simply their forced/involuntary exploitation which led to death, as typical for the slave labor. We need sources claiming it was a deliberate extermination, rather than exploitation, or that it was literally "extermination through forced labor". I do not see it about the African slave trade and Congo. We are not going to include whole slavery here? My very best wishes ( talk) 18:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)