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The article defines a fact as an observation. So... when did we observe the evolution of a species? Saksjn ( talk) 19:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
We have observed
speciation in the laboratory numerous times, as well as in the field. For example, the plants on the opposite sides of the
Great Wall of China are different species. Several nylon eating species of bacteria have appeared in the last few decades, and this has been repeatedly observed and is well established. Some are less direct, but there is a special species of mosquito that has evolved to live only in the London Underground. And there appears to be a special species of bug in Hawaii that has evolved special mouths to eat bananas. There is a ton more on
TalkOrigins
[1] and in our own
speciation article. That should get you started, but it is obviously an immense field with thousands if not tens of thousands of examples. And of course, that does not include the less direct examples of speciation evident in the genetic code (the fingerprints left on our DNA by endogenous retroviruses and the teleomere in the middle of our 2nd chromosome, for example) and in the fossil record (which has many examples as well).--
Filll (
talk)
20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps "adaptation" has been observed, evolution if it is happning is a string of adaptations and a very slow process. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
72.222.253.64 (
talk)
23:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree. This article totally misrepresents the true nature of scientific enquiry in order to fit it into the evolution vs creationism debate. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozfreediver ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I dropped in to read this discussion because I thought it might be amusing. It was just incredibly frustrating ;). Anyway, I thought I would drop in one "fact" to this discussion. Instead of "theories" about the position of the NAS, here's a quote from their publication "Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science". You can find it online here: http://www.nap.edu/html/evolution98/, or you can buy a copy for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0309063647/.
Sum up: The NAS says evolution is a theory and a fact. End of discussion. You can still disagree with them. You can argue about their definition of fact. You can say that they all idiots who are descended from apes and we shouldn't listen to them anyway. But hopefully we can at least stop arguing about what their position is.
Actually, that publication is pretty good on making all these differences very clear. It might be worth including a reference to it in the article. Not that this is going to convince anyone ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSKNuDnh8Kw). Chaleur ( talk) 20:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Is evolution a fact or a theory?
The theory of evolution explains how life on earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world.
Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.
Two points: first, the original article opens with a definition of 'fact' which says two things: facts are observable (meanining if I dispute it as a 'fact' you can show it to me) and facts are statements which have become so well believed that they are taken as facts. Specifically you say "a fact is an observation or a piece of data." Thus, if I observe something I assume it's a fact -- and if you too observe it -- it's a fact. From what I observe in the ongoing discussion here, some people want to make a distinction between that which can be directly sensed (i.e. observed) -- the changes in the genetic structure of organisms as they adapt to new environments, for instance, and the conclusion that such a mechanism (or mechanisms) are sufficient to account for speciation. The first is a narrow reading of 'fact.' The second is a statement about the general consensus of the technicians working with the observations made in the field. If you get a group of Western doctors together and present a patient with a certain list of symptoms they would proceed on the assumptions of modern Western medicine. They would not need to demonstrate that some microorganisms can cause a fever because it is assumed to be a fact. If therefore, the patient has a fever, the doctors assume infection by those microorganisms. They take the presence of those organisms as a fact.
Now, in the same manner, those who see evolution as a fact (in the second sense) want to treat it as a fact of the first sense -- they want to claim that they have observed it. And those who want to reject evolutionary theory (which is what they see it to be if it is only 'fact' in the second sense) insist that the evolutionist proove that the theory is a 'fact' of the first sense. But, as you at least implied, since evolutionary theory cannot be directly observed (partly because of the time scale needed, and partly because there is a lot of fuzziness as to what exactly constitutes a truely evolutionary change), it can only be taken as a fact in the second sense, and because that sense is socially mediated it is a fact to those who are in agreement, and a 'mere' theory to those who are not in agreement.
Thus, to improve the article I suggest you delineate between socially constructed facts and observational facts. You do so, indirectly, and because of the fuzziness of the distinction, the discussion of evolution as 'fact and theory' is inadvertantly muddied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccsi99 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Why are two contrasting fields of science being compared? 122.104.137.25 ( talk) 12:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
<undent> And science requires scientific method. Whooda thunkit! . . dave souza, talk 08:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:NOTAFORUM, nothing more to say here. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This article has one purpose, and one purpose only. It is to call anybody who calls evolution a theory, a nincompoop. All the sources brought have the same purpose which is why they are irrelevant. In any case it, totally ignores the issue. People who are calling evolution a theory are not talking about micro-evolution. They are talking about common descent. This article as all virulently pro-evolution articles do, is undoubtedly deliberately not making that point clear. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 18:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC) P.S. Hi again to all those of you who I haven't butted heads against in a while.
There might be a difference, between scientific usage and regular usage, but it's not that significant. Funny that this has been the root of repeated court cases, including at least one in front of the US Supreme Court, and the creationist willfull misrepresentation of this difference has been the cause of creationists losing over and over and over and over. Millions of dollars flushed down the toilet. Creationists embarassed over and over and over for decades. Yeah, you are right, I guess it is not that significant.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I will no longer be editing this article since it generates such hostility from people such as yourself. However, if you want to have some viewpoint presented, then provide reliable sources.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 21:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The article is not a rant, but this thread in the talk page is. I suggest that Ezra Wax should read and try to understand the article, and that it is time to close this discussion topic. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC) The article is most certainly a rant. Don't blind yourself. It weakens your point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sculptus.Poe ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
You classify Evolution as a fact, give me some proof. I am a creationist and i have a question. Evolution is unprovable by the scientific method, so is creationsim, so that makes both Theories. There has been no observations of Evolution. The mosquitoes in the London Subway would be classified under "Adaptations" not Evolution. If you have evidence, show me. tell me. I want to know. --- Ian Moss--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.51.108 ( talk) 20:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
A fact is a scientific theory that has been proven by the scientific method... somthing that can be recreated by experament. Neither evolution or creation can be recreated or experiamented with, so we must gather and compare evidence to find a conclusion.---Ian Moss--- Ragz5 ( talk · contribs)
Sean i know exactly what 'proof' fact' theory' adaptation' and 'evolution' means, thats not what im asking. there are just to many holes and unstable 'proof' for evolution to be taught as a fact. why cant creationism be taught as a scientific theory in our schools today? they teach the Theory of evolution as a fact.---Ian Moss---
When I glance through this nonsense, it is clear to me that some of the people above have not actually read through this article, the related articles, and the references. Please do so before clogging this page with more irrelevant marginalia. Thanks.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC) |
The point of this statement is to differentiate the concept of the "fact of evolution", namely the observed changes in populations of organisms over time, from the " theory of evolution", namely the current scientific explanation of how those changes came about.
I think stating that the observed changes in populations is a fact is false. That is in itself a theory much of the time. Certainly in laboratory situations and historically corroborated situations it is a fact, but when it comes to fossil records, it is only a theory in the layman's sense of the word. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 02:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
My addition of the above words might read poorly, but it is important, because that is the point of the article and the article completely ignores it. If you have a better suggestion of how to say it, please speak up, or I'll try again with different wording. The random stuff was the result of a conflict between wiked and lookitup2 that messes me up sometimes. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 03:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The policy of Wikipedia is to use the sources which are relevant to a given topic found in the scholarly literature of the relevant academic discipline. If you are addressing evolution, it is part of a biology, which is a science. And well over 99 percent of all professional biologists accept evolution as the most viable theory for the facts observed. If you are discussing Jesus, the vast majority of the academic community believe that Jesus existed, and so the Wikipedia articles reflect that. We do not write the Jesus articles from the scientific viewpoint, or the Catholic articles from the scientific viewpoint, and we do not write the biology articles from the religious viewpoint. That is the way it is. If you do not like it, there are many many other wikis which do not follow these same principles, such as Conservapedia. You are welcome to go to a wiki which is more closely aligned with your preconceived notions about what "truth" is, or how a wiki should be organized and run.
As for your questions about "scientific fact", it either shows you have not read this article and the linked references, or you did not understand it. There are facts, and there are scientific facts. They are different. Learn the difference. There are theories and there are scientific theories. They are different. Learn the difference. When you understand these basic points, then you can actually discuss this intelligently.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 12:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
This page breaks the rule against original research. The opening paragraph has nine sources for one statement. That is by definition original research. You should be able to find one or at most two sources that definitively state the point. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 17:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Ezra appears to totally misunderstand what constitutes "original research" when he says that nine sources for one statement "is by definition original research". Only by Ezra's personal definition, perhaps, but certainly not by the definition on the OR page, or by any common meaning of the phrase. He also appears confused when he claims, "The reason why there are so many sources is because nobody says what is asserted". Um, no -- the reason why there are so many sources is because so *many* reliable souces say what is asserted that a) it's does a disservice to the reader to narrow it down to only one or two, and b) there is such voluminous evidence for the statement that it's useful to refer the reader to a great many diverse sources which cover the topic from varying lines of evidence. Another good reason for including many sources instead of one or two, especially in an article like this, is c) argumentative creationists often like to incorrectly claim that there's little or no support for some aspect of evolutionary biology, or try to handwave away a given source in order to attempt to undermine a claim, and thus it is useful to provide many sources for a claim in order to make the vacuousness of these creationist attacks apparent to a reader who might otherwise fall for these "evolution is an empty shell" attacks by propagandizing creationists.
Ezra, if you have an actual suggestion for improving the article, feel free to make it, but so far I've seen nothing in your edits to this page which rise above pointless contentiousness or naysaying. This latest attempt to dismiss a well-sourced claim as "original research" because it's "too" well sourced just descends into complete silliness. If you can't discuss the science on it own terms -- and simply namecalling it as "dogma" or (gasp) "naturalism" doesn't rise to the level of discussing the *content* of the science itself -- then ultimately you're just wasting your own time and ours on this talk page. -- Ichneumon ( talk) 04:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Putting aside the issue of whether this page is original research, I do agree that the list of 10 sources after the "frequently seen" phrase is excessive. The first source, from a webpage of "Moran, Laurence" contains mostly quotes from other sources that are listed as sources already on this page (from Gould, Lewontin, etc.) I would say this first source is unnecessary; all of its material is from sources that are already listed on this page. Davidstromberg ( talk) 21:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)\
In the process of preparing my response for the AfD discussion, I came across the following article by Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute: part 1, part 2. Given the source, it may or may not be useful in the article. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 03:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, since it agrees with the central theme of the article itself, it might be useful in a "even a prominent creationist agrees" sort of way. -- Ichneumon ( talk) 04:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The following was pasted on my talk page by the person who closed the AFD:-- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I do not believe that this personal opinion of TenPoundHammer means much.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
There are at least three independent editors whose view this as POV. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Ezra, please focus. If you cannot supply a list, then you have no reasons for the tag, as you cannot identify the problem. If you cannot ID the problem, then editors are quite correct in removing the tag. Shot info ( talk) 04:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I added the following to the opening paragraph. This is in accordance with the recommendation that I find sourced opposing views. It was predictably removed. Pray tell how you can honestly say that this statement or something similar does not belong in the article. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
However, those who disagree with the theory of common descent maintain that only microevolution is a fact, while macroevolution has not yet been established. [1] [2]
Such an addition (I don't see it - I guess you have not in fact added it) would be totally inappropriate in the lead. Apart from the POV-pushy nature of it, it is simply confusing to complicate the relatively simple "story-line" of the article by getting bogged down in "macro" vs. "micro" evolution at such an early stage. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 20:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand we have heavyweights such as Stephen Jay Gould, Nobel prize winners, Theodosius Dobzhansky, Ernst Mayr, etc, etc. On the other side we have an Michael Denton, an undistinguished biochemist whose "later book Nature's Destiny contradicts many of the points of" the cited book, and the work of some previously-unheard-of biology PhD, originally published in the St. Louis MetroVoice, a Christian newspaper, not a scientific journal. Guess where the WP:DUE weight lies in questions of science? Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
RFC comment. Hello, I've never seen this article before, nor do I edit much in evolution, nor do I have strong passions on the subject (I certainly believe in evolution, but I don't think that creationism is somehow morally wrong). Having said that, I have two comments:
This is a useful article. Kudos to those who compiled it. Cool Hand Luke 04:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I am assuming that this RFCSci is about adding the following quote to the first paragraph of the article:
(If this is true can someone edit the RFCSci to better reflect what this RFCSci purpose is.)
The above statement does not belong for a number of reasons. The most important argument for this is that even if it was true (scientifically) it is not relevant to the purpose of the article. If the article was 'Gravity as theory and fact' it would not be relevant to include in the article that the Newtownian theory of gravity is only an approximation to GR unless the article discusses the theories of gravity in detail. The purpose of the article is to distinguish between two scientific terms not to explain the details about which version of the theory is considered most correct. Second, even if we accepted that the proposed sentence was the scientific consensus (which it is most definitely not) and we accept the idea that because the article mentions the word theory is must discuss which version of theory is most scientifically accepted (which is stretching the purpose of the article) it most definitely does not belong in the first paragraph which summarizes the content. The statement is too tangential to the purpose of the article even if it was true.
TStein ( talk) 17:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment was requested, so I'm adding one. I'm not sure this article is salvageable. That characteristics of organisms have changed is observable. That the best currently known models for the types of change we see are variants of evolution also seems correct, but this interpretation is surely not a "fact" in the sense in which that term is being used here. One issue is that the term "evolution" already has an interpretation builtin. Thus evolution isn't a bare fact (if there is such a thing), because saying that we observe evolution is already characterizing our observations in a specific way. Furthermore, most practicing scientists (at least in areas I know, primarily physics) don't use terms like fact and theory. They use terms like observation and model. The question is what model is the best explanation of the observations. The only possible use of an article on "evolution as theory and fact" would seem to be to comment on actual use of those terms in the debate between scientists and creationists. Thus as far as the original question is concerned, I would have no problem at all including creationist views in this article.. But I have serious questions about the usefulness of the article as it exists. Hedrick ( talk) 19:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Even if the views of creationists are listed (and the revised version will have a much more extensive discussion of the history of the confusion about this created by creationists, and the legal challenges to the use of this confusion by the creationists), remember that we must follow WP:NPOV. By NPOV, we must present the views in proportion to their prominence in the relevant academic field; i.e. among academic biologists. And academic biologists support the theory of evolution by overwhelming numbers, well in excess of 99 percent. So...-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The consensus has been that NPOV tag belongs at the top of the page. The NPOV tag itself says that it may not be removed until the issue has been resolved. In order that I not violate the three revert rule, I ask that somebody else please return it. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 04:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The gist of this article is to attempt to explain how evolution may be both fact and theory. The answer, according to a rather unhelpful and unrepresentative Gouldian viewpoint adopted by the authors, is that since fact and theory are different we must be using the word 'evolution' in 2 different ways; firstly to refer to experimental observations and secondly to describe an explanatory framework in which all the observations fit together.
I contend that while this view is out there, it is not the widely understood and proper solution to this conundrum. The answer instead should be that it is perfectly correct for one and the same hypothesis to be simultaneously refered to as both fact and theory. 'Fact' says something about the degree of certainty we have in a hypothesis. 'Theory' is a different way of classifying a hypothesis and is applied on account of its complexity, explanatory and predictive power. Statements therefore such as 'humans and monkeys have a common ancestor', 'dinosaurs existed' and 'gene frequencies change over generations' may well be fact as well as theory, even though it may not be possible to observe any of these things directly.
Those who insist that 'fact' must be observable should consider the following sequence. Looking at something with the naked eye, looking at something through strong glasses, binoculars, an electron microscope, a particle detector etc. At what point along this continuum does fact turn into theory? Is for example the statement 'electrons exist' a fact? There is of course always the possibility that the measuring device is faulty (or that our own senses are deceiving us). Consider this from Douglas Futuyma:
I am convinced that to limit 'fact' to observations is an abuse of the way fact is used both in common parlance and by the scientific community, and that the article as it stands is misleading. I have reluctantly added POV to the article for scientific rather than creationist reasons. — Axel147 ( talk) 18:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
What is meant by evolution is a fact? Are you including common descent in the fact of evolution? Has the theory that there are beneficial mutations been proven to the level that it is considered a fact? The fact that is claimed in the opening sentence is a very weak fact. It is simply that the characteristics of populations change, but not any of the more controversial claims. It should be clearly stated in the article which parts of evolution are considered fact and probably by whom as well. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 20:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
It is amazing to me how confused people seem to be with what I thought was a reasonably clear explanation. Either this is willful misreading of the article, or misinterpretation, or else I have to write the next version more clearly. Wow. -- Filll ( talk | wpc) 00:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
As you see I've attempted some major changes. I'm not sure I'm happy with them myself. The only part that was actually suspect in the previous version was the interpretation of "evolution is fact". I think the content is correct but think the readability could be better - it now seems bogged down with explanations. It case of compromising readability for technical accuracy and presenting all major viewpoints. What the opinion out there? — Axel147 ( talk) 02:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
WP:TALK |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It is time for us to state the truth. The theory of evolution is not true because there is too much evidence against it for it to be true. The number one disproof is the serious lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record. If there are not enough "transitional" fossils to demonstrate the smooth transition between animals, which never happened, then evolution did not happen either. The only type of evolution that ever happens, or did happen, or even will happen, is micro-evolution, which means one specific SPECIES of organism adapting to its environment, but never changing into a different SPECIES of organism.-- 98.199.76.184 ( talk) 10:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
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Is it really necessary to have ten citations for the first sentence? I would think that four or five would be far more than enough. J.delanoy gabs adds 17:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
After going through this article, my main difficulty is that it is written as if it were a college research paper. It is not encyclopedic in the least. I know the multiple references has been brought up repeatedly, but it is the first impression the reader gets and reminds me significantly of the introductory literature review in journal articles laying the foundation for the research presented. From there it goes on to laying out a definition of the main terms terms. Following this, it applies those terms to the topic. This smells highly of Original Research. I will attempt to highlight some of the statements that suggest that it is the case.
Statement one is akin to laying the foundation of original research: defining the terms. Encyclopedia articles are not responsible for defining terms. Wikipedia is especially useful in that you can simply link them. The whole section of defining terms should be removed and simply have the links
evolution,
fact, and
theory present in the introduction. Statement 2 would simply be left out of an encyclopedic article. Its presence gives [me] the impression that the attitude of the author is to try to clarify something based on his own research. Furthermore, he is using a table he compiled to illustrate a point he is trying to make. It is not a table of data or a table compiled in some other source, both of which would not be original research. This, however, is highly suspect. Statement 3 is also something you would typically find in a poorly written college research paper, not in an encyclopedia.
Instead of ever referring to an actual incidence of the fact/theory discussion, the writer(s) of this article refer to several sources, some which claim each perspective, but none which critique each perspective or the debate surrounding them. The writer(s) of this article took that task on themselves, which makes this article Original Research.
I do not know whether the article should be deleted or not, but it needs a COMPLETE rewrite. This is horrible for Wikipedia standards. The content may be fine and draw good conclusions, but that is irrelevant. It does not belong in its current state.
BobertWABC (
talk)
18:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that this page is a pure 'argument' page and is not at all encyclopedic. It has obviously been started by someone who was not getting their own way on a 'main' page. I suggest it is deleted. 86.133.176.101 ( talk) 19:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I still believe that the page should be deleted. The argument is silly. No physicist would claim that GR is a 'fact', it is a theory with an enormous body of experimental support covering a very wide range of conditions; evolution is the same. The attempt to use the word 'fact' to refer to evolution degrades science and reduces the argument against crackpot religious theories to a pointless philosophical discussion about the meaning of words. Evolution is a theory with a vast body of experimental support which no other theory comes close to matching. That is the only way to put it. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about the use of words here. As I said, no physicist would describe general relativity (GR) or any theory of physics as a fact even though they may be better experimental evidence for it than there is for one of the examples that you have given. In non-scientific use the word 'fact' is used for something about which we have a very high degree of confidence. As this discussion is essentially about science, my suggestion is that it is more scientific to use the word 'theory' when talking about evolution. If some people take this to mean that it is in any reasonable doubt that is unfortunate but ranting on that it is a 'fact' is not, in my opinion, the way to deal with dissenters even if they deliberately play on the meaning of 'theory'. On that basis , this page, as it is, serves no purpose. Perhaps it should be called, 'How confident is the scientific community in the theory of evolution?' Martin Hogbin ( talk) 18:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the use of the word 'fact' is fine when it is immediately followed up with a definition, as in the recent reversion by Teapotgeorge - in the title of the article this is not the case. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Why not have a page comparing scientific evidence for different theories for the origin of the species. This would be a far better way of doing things than the current page with its "yes it is/ no it is't" approach. Maybe with a summary table along the lines of:
Evolution - For, Against
Intelligent design - For, against
Creation - ...
Having been involved in an edit war over a table for a completely different topic I thing we should agree some rules such as: single (reasonable) sentence statements; only arguments for in the 'for' column; only generally accepted scientific evidence. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 18:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How about keeping some of the supporting statements from the anti-evolutionists (AE) but adding the reasons that they are not valid. This may appear to give some credence to the AE but it may be better to address the issues directly. Otherwise we may be giving the impression to some readers that there is something to hide. I know it is frustrating and somewhat un-encyclopedic but it is the kind of thing that has been done on some web sites, to refute the moon landing conspiracy and anti-relativity crackpots, for example. Otherwise we get claims of, 'things the evolutionists won't let you say'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Continued from the section above.
Axel147, is this the point that you are trying to make? In other words are you expecting this page to say what exactly is included in the well accepted theory of evolution and what is more speculative? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 21:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I think your questions show why use of the word 'fact' in a scientific context is best avoided, since it creates a vast, unnecessary, and unwelcome, philosophical debate on the meaning of words.
For example, I am not sure whether you are asserting in your first three questions that there is some disagreement between groups of evolutionary biologists as to the status of evolution. There may be some disagreement, but this is only about use of the word 'fact'; a semantic debate unconnected with biology.
Regarding your fourth question, different people do use terms in different ways and, again, 'fact' is a word used differently by different people.
Your last question, in my opinion, revolves around the meaning of words again. It is quite clear that evolutionary biologists agree substantially on the status of evolution but creationists hold a completely different view. A debate over the use of the word 'fact' will do nothing to clear up this issue.
If your questions represent the consensus view on what this page is about then my advice is to delete the page. It serves no purpose except to add fuel to an already blazing fire. Scientists should stick rigidly to statements along the lines of, 'evolution is a very well established theory...', and,'evolution is the only scientifically accepted theory...'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Using the Earth rotating round the Sun as an example of a fact is an unfortunate choice. Mechanically, a star-planet combination rotates round its combined centre of gravity: it is no more true to say that the plantet rotates around the star than that the star rotates round the planet; it just happens that the distance of the centre of gravity of the star from the combined centre of gravity is less than the distance of the centre of gravity of the planet from the combined centre of gravity. -- ZScarpia ( talk) 11:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I did not ask you to do so. However, if you can find them, they would be welcome here.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 18:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Opinion: the topic doesn't warrant a stand-alone article. Why not abridge it and integrate it into an existing article on evolution?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation-evolution_controversy are both good candidates.
As it stands, the article has a number of problems. There are numerous (albeit minor) grammatical errors, and the tone is awkward -- a distinct sense of desperation pervades the article's language and structure, as if the authors have tried to anticipate every possible objection to its contents. This kind of defensive writing is unnecessary (and unencyclopedic). Six or seven references is an overly large number; refer to any of the articles linked on Wikipedia's main page for comparison. Two or three references are enough. Also, works with titles such as "Speak Out Against The New Right" should be avoided when attempting to validate a scientific idea: these writings invite accusations of bias, and are clearly not scholarly in character.
On a related note, and as a reminder, it's worth pointing out that authorship on Wikipedia is not synonomous with ownership. The responses by some of this article's editors to various postings made previously indicate a disappointingly flippant attitude. The article is clearly in need of work, and some worthy suggestions have been made. Egos should not stand as an impediment to progress. Kpn engin ( talk) 04:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I read the discussion above, and I notice repeated attempts to delete it or tag it POV.
But this article serves an essential purpose: there is a tremendous amount of discussion initiated by creationists that question evoluiton by asserting that "evolution is just a theory". That assertion is contained in literally thousands of Christian books and websites. Addressing that concern would, ideally, be a minor paragraph in the Evolution article, but history has shown that a tremendous amount of debate revolves around it. So, rather than bog down the Evolution article, it is sensible and appropriate to have a dedicated article focused on the theory vs. fact topic.
For that reason, this article serves a valuable purpose: namely answering the oft-asked question "is evolution just a theory, and if it is, doesnt that make creationism equally valid?". -- Noleander ( talk) 18:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I share the opinion that the (currently) seven citation links in the lead are too many. I clicked all of them to see where they point. I suggest we remove every link to an ISBN number, since clicking it only leads to an opportunity to search for places to buy the book. I also suggest we remove the link to H. J. Muller (1959) "...there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea." because it's 50 years old and contradicts with the tenets of this article and with the link to Stephen Jay Gould (1981) "...facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty.". I also suggest we remove the link to Laurence Moran (1999) because the relevant parts of that article are direct quotes from the Stephen J. Gould (1981) article and so are redundant. The citation to Stephen J. Gould (1981) is sufficient to provide an example of the distinction between terms that is the subject of this wikipedia article; the other citations can all go away without loss of weight to the lead. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 09:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
"Evolution" (one word only) is not a theory. Evolution (one word only) is a fact. "The Theory of Evolution" (four words) is a theory. "Evolutionary Theory" (two words) is a theory. People may claim "evolution is a theory" when throwing volleys across the aisle but when biologists actually talk and write about the theory, they never name it "evolution" (one word only), they use one of the longer phrases above or even other phrases altogether that are handles for the subjects within evolutionary theory, such as "genetic drift", "kin selection", etc. They never say "evolution explains evolution", which would be true if evolution (one word) were a theory. The phrase "evolution is both theory and fact" creates its own problems by implying that one term simultaneously has two meanings when the two meaning are not simultaneously compatible--it must mean one or the other at any given usage. It's really two terms which are homonyms, and one of them is a lazy nickname for a multi-word phrase. A lot of this misunderstanding would be cleared up if we just stopped the lazy speak and said "evolutionary theory" when we meant it. There can be no doubt in the meaning of "evolution is a fact and evolutionary theory is a theory". I think this article should clear that up a little better, instead of inviting people to fall in the intellectual pot hole so we can laugh at their misinterpretation of an ambiguous phrase. I suggest inserting an adjective in the lead so that "This statement..." becomes "This unfortunate statement...", or "This potentially confusing statement...", or something else that immediately invites deeper examination. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 09:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is not about a particular statement, but is about the consensus view among biologists that evolution is both a theory and a fact. I have restored the original consensus version of the lead sentence, pending further discussion on what the scope of this article should be. If indeed the article is about the statement itself, as a direct quote, then I suppose it makes sense to attribute it as a quote in the first paragraph (like Ich bin ein Berliner). However, that is not the impression I get on reading this version of the lead. Starting the article with the phrase in quotations appears to be a rhetorical device to cast some doubt on the statement, and seems to be inappropriate for an article, both in intent and tone. My earlier edit was an attempt to fix what I perceived as an inappropriate tone. However, it was quickly reverted with the edit summary: "Undone. It's precisely that phrase that this article is about. This is not an article about evolution. It's about terminological distinction and unintentional confusion." I don't see how my edit changes in any substantive way the intention of the preceding version. But it did do away with what seemed to be a rather stylized rhetorical construction of starting an article with an (unattributed) quotation, which has a polemic rather than encyclopedic feel to it. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 22:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
What do we do with this? These are cited or directly quoted in the article:
"Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea." -- H. J. Muller (1959)
"And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty." -- Stephen Jay Gould (1981)
--
Another Stickler (
talk)
21:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I think you are confused. When the folks above are talking about "verifiability", they mean a certain Wikipedia policy by that name. They are not engaging in a discussion of epistemology. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 02:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I've always believed in evolution and still do because it is the most logical and or scientific when possible. After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted. Also evolution must be changed to Darwinian evolution because even if it were the only totally scientific theory people must distinguish. There is something called Vedic evolution. Gravity is called Newtonian gravity and is 99% right on on everyday Earth bound standards, but in the majority of the universe it fails and Einstein's laws of reltivity take over. Just because of a Christian-Darwin debate we must not falter on correct labeling.
Also can you make it clear how to create a talk page and fix these kinds of things so that actions are not limited to those who are constantly on wikipedia? Sfvace ( talk) 04:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The inclusion of polls in this article has already been discussed in the talk page archives. I always notice that there is a particular poll that those with a creationist agenda always want to push into articles about evolution: the "51% of Americans think God created humans in their present form" figure. Now, as I recall, there were many such polls available at some time or another, and this is by far the highest. The same cited CBS poll indicates that 67% of Americans believe that creation and evolution are compatible. I find the poll suspect to begin with, since most other polls find that the largest group of Americans believe in theistic evolution, that is evolution that is "guided by God". See for instance the Gallup poll on this. Furthermore, where reliable polls exist in other countries, the numbers show greater credence in evolution in nearly every other country with the exception of Turkey. Finally, the subject of this article is not "polls about Creationists and their beliefs", and so the easiest way to comply with the neutral point of view policy and the no original research policy is simply to leave the poll out of it. Cheers, siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 03:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
No poll is perfect but we can see the general result; around 1/2 or more not believing in Darwinian evolution in full or to some degree. If this is such a problem why not include several of the most respected polls rather than censor out any and all polls? If it's not ok to use the whole U.S. of America as an example on this matter of "objects to evolution" why is there below this matter a state of Oklahoma case? Does this case represent the whole world in perfection? If it was a supreme case and federal than at best it would be equal to the poll of America as a whole! And if you're so worried about the poll being unfair or something, why not add the other polls you like so that the uptmost use of facts are provided rather than edit it out to some vague obviously anti creationist biased statement? "There are those who refuse to accept" style, or what ever the user changed it back to, where it kind of implies there are small small pesky disease of people who won't accept the flawless fact? Well I suggest you view the evolution vid on youtube.com/playitalready and leave your comments, you won't get censored there. The vid isn't the best but the links are, or else I'd be 100% Darwinist still and my upcoming book wouldn't argue against it at all. What ever, later. Sfvace ( talk) 04:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
People I left "Some polls indicate that as many as 51% of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form, however the same polls indicate that 67% believe it is possible to believe in both God and evolution" under Religion in the United States [5]. enough petty conflicts just because there are more creationists in Saudi Arabia does not mean that one is better than the other its only Demographics, Now we must ask ourselves do the statistics belong under Evolution as theory and fact as well. I think Ill just stop commenting here. -- Zaharous ( talk) 05:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind inclusion of polls if they illustrate a point, but how is this one related to the heading it's under? No mention is made of a particular objection to the fact of evolution. I don't even think the "Objections..." section is needed, just as an "Evidence..." section isn't. It doesn't do anything to clear up the distinction between evolutionary fact and theory, which is the simple task of this increasingly bloated article. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 12:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Silly Rabbit, 50% is not a majority, nobody said the tag should come down, and your replacement poll doesn't raise an "objection to the fact of evolution" so it doesn't belong in that subsection any more than the poll it replaced did. I move we delete the subsection. Who's with me? -- Another Stickler ( talk) 12:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
First of all please refrain from strawman arguments. The poll said 51% do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution as fact, not 50. 51 is majority, that is a fact. Second, this was more detailed and factual/bias "There are those who refuse to accept the fact..." line. It infers some sort of strange minority cult against Darwin's theory. The only solution is to leave this poll along with two other most authoratative and respected polls and leave a note claiming in the beginning "Though polls may vary, various respected polls such as..."
Do you really think real enycopedias operate this way? Well...there are so many polls and it makes Darwin's theory look bad so let us delete them all? I respected wikipedia a lot till these actions have been taken. Please fix this.
Deleting the whole section is WORSE. You can't censor scientific arguments. Not all people who argue against aspects of Darwin's concepts are creationists and if they do it is not all for creationist reasons. Religious arguments belongs with them. Leave the scientific objects in this scientific section. People aren't going to come to wikipedia to see someone push a totally one sided Darwinian evolution model. Sfvace ( talk) 05:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This page and the discussion that surrounds it makes wikipedia look a joke. It is packed with ideologues on both sides and should just be deleted. Evolution should have a page and creation science should have a page. While this may be a valuable debate, this page has no place in an encyclopaedia, the title of the article itself makes a claim which is clearly not neutral. Perhaps "Academic discussion of evolution as theory and fact" would work better.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Janamills ( talk • contribs)
One could bring up a billion examples of how the theory and fact of evolution has been objected in the past, and none of them are relevant to this article that tries to explain; from a scientific viewpoint, why evolution is considered a fact and what a scientific theory is. Adding souch a section is clearly a biased edit becouse the Wikipedia Equal Validity claims that articles should not give equal validity to minority views, and in the scientific world, all contradictions to the evolutionary theory and fact are considered minority (and almost always biased) views. Read more about NPOV and equal validity here. Just becouse you don't like the evolutionary theory doesn't mean it's not a fact, sorry. I will now delete this section and please reply with a very good reason before reverting it back.
Just keep the objections in this, very relevant article, instead: Objections to evolution CooPs89 ( talk) 10:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I've always believed in evolution and still do because it is the most logical and or scientific when possible. After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted. Also evolution must be changed to Darwinian evolution because even if it were the only totally scientific theory people must distinguish. There is something called Vedic evolution. Gravity is called Newtonian gravity and is 99% right on on everyday Earth bound standards, but in the majority of the universe it fails and Einstein's laws of reltivity take over. Just because of a Christian-Darwin debate we must not falter on correct labeling. Also can you make it clear how to create a talk page and fix these kinds of things so that actions are not limited to those who are constantly on wikipedia? Sfvace ( talk) 05:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Sfvace but your original claims and research does not belong here on wikipedia. If you want to debate the issue or enligten other with your ideas, do it in a forum. And when your idea changes the scientific consensus about evolution, I promise to be the first to type it down in this article.After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted.
Now we're getting somewhere. The article is about defining terms, not debating whether the terms apply. If we can remove the list of objections to the fact of evolution, we can also remove the list of supporting evidence for the fact of evolution. Surely there must be better places to collect those. This article has a small task; there's no need for it to be any larger than a few paragraphs. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 08:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I think Evolution compared with gravity should stay because it offers parallels between the two theories that help to illustrate the subject of the article. The Predictive power section probably does not need to be here. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 14:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"This article is about why the scientific consensus considers evolution as theory and fact" CooPs89, I don't think the article needs to explain why. That's done elsewhere already. It just needs to show that it's treated that way in the literature so people don't get confused. "and what a theory and fact is" CooPs89, it doesn't need to do that either. Each of those subjects already has its own main article, and is linked to from the first sentence of this article. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 19:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Silly Rabbit, I think I get your point that gravity is fact-and-theory too so might serve as a good illustration, but it still reads like a defensive argument for why it's OK for evolution to be considered fact and theory. Compare that to the "Evolution as theory and fact in the literature" section which covers the literature and is cited. I'm not gonna hack and slash without some shared opinion though. Since you agree about the "Predictive power" section, I'd like to remove it from this article. I don't want to destroy the information though; people put time into researching those citations. What article do you think I can move it to instead? -- Another Stickler ( talk) 19:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Dan8080 has introduced a large amount of WP:POV and often outright fallcious material into the article, and is now WP:EDITWARing to keep it there. Fallacies include:
There are probably more fallacies in this piece of ludicrous creationist propaganda, but the above is more than enough reason for reverting it. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
The article defines a fact as an observation. So... when did we observe the evolution of a species? Saksjn ( talk) 19:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
We have observed
speciation in the laboratory numerous times, as well as in the field. For example, the plants on the opposite sides of the
Great Wall of China are different species. Several nylon eating species of bacteria have appeared in the last few decades, and this has been repeatedly observed and is well established. Some are less direct, but there is a special species of mosquito that has evolved to live only in the London Underground. And there appears to be a special species of bug in Hawaii that has evolved special mouths to eat bananas. There is a ton more on
TalkOrigins
[1] and in our own
speciation article. That should get you started, but it is obviously an immense field with thousands if not tens of thousands of examples. And of course, that does not include the less direct examples of speciation evident in the genetic code (the fingerprints left on our DNA by endogenous retroviruses and the teleomere in the middle of our 2nd chromosome, for example) and in the fossil record (which has many examples as well).--
Filll (
talk)
20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps "adaptation" has been observed, evolution if it is happning is a string of adaptations and a very slow process. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
72.222.253.64 (
talk)
23:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree. This article totally misrepresents the true nature of scientific enquiry in order to fit it into the evolution vs creationism debate. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozfreediver ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I dropped in to read this discussion because I thought it might be amusing. It was just incredibly frustrating ;). Anyway, I thought I would drop in one "fact" to this discussion. Instead of "theories" about the position of the NAS, here's a quote from their publication "Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science". You can find it online here: http://www.nap.edu/html/evolution98/, or you can buy a copy for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0309063647/.
Sum up: The NAS says evolution is a theory and a fact. End of discussion. You can still disagree with them. You can argue about their definition of fact. You can say that they all idiots who are descended from apes and we shouldn't listen to them anyway. But hopefully we can at least stop arguing about what their position is.
Actually, that publication is pretty good on making all these differences very clear. It might be worth including a reference to it in the article. Not that this is going to convince anyone ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSKNuDnh8Kw). Chaleur ( talk) 20:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Is evolution a fact or a theory?
The theory of evolution explains how life on earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world.
Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.
Two points: first, the original article opens with a definition of 'fact' which says two things: facts are observable (meanining if I dispute it as a 'fact' you can show it to me) and facts are statements which have become so well believed that they are taken as facts. Specifically you say "a fact is an observation or a piece of data." Thus, if I observe something I assume it's a fact -- and if you too observe it -- it's a fact. From what I observe in the ongoing discussion here, some people want to make a distinction between that which can be directly sensed (i.e. observed) -- the changes in the genetic structure of organisms as they adapt to new environments, for instance, and the conclusion that such a mechanism (or mechanisms) are sufficient to account for speciation. The first is a narrow reading of 'fact.' The second is a statement about the general consensus of the technicians working with the observations made in the field. If you get a group of Western doctors together and present a patient with a certain list of symptoms they would proceed on the assumptions of modern Western medicine. They would not need to demonstrate that some microorganisms can cause a fever because it is assumed to be a fact. If therefore, the patient has a fever, the doctors assume infection by those microorganisms. They take the presence of those organisms as a fact.
Now, in the same manner, those who see evolution as a fact (in the second sense) want to treat it as a fact of the first sense -- they want to claim that they have observed it. And those who want to reject evolutionary theory (which is what they see it to be if it is only 'fact' in the second sense) insist that the evolutionist proove that the theory is a 'fact' of the first sense. But, as you at least implied, since evolutionary theory cannot be directly observed (partly because of the time scale needed, and partly because there is a lot of fuzziness as to what exactly constitutes a truely evolutionary change), it can only be taken as a fact in the second sense, and because that sense is socially mediated it is a fact to those who are in agreement, and a 'mere' theory to those who are not in agreement.
Thus, to improve the article I suggest you delineate between socially constructed facts and observational facts. You do so, indirectly, and because of the fuzziness of the distinction, the discussion of evolution as 'fact and theory' is inadvertantly muddied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccsi99 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Why are two contrasting fields of science being compared? 122.104.137.25 ( talk) 12:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
<undent> And science requires scientific method. Whooda thunkit! . . dave souza, talk 08:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:NOTAFORUM, nothing more to say here. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This article has one purpose, and one purpose only. It is to call anybody who calls evolution a theory, a nincompoop. All the sources brought have the same purpose which is why they are irrelevant. In any case it, totally ignores the issue. People who are calling evolution a theory are not talking about micro-evolution. They are talking about common descent. This article as all virulently pro-evolution articles do, is undoubtedly deliberately not making that point clear. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 18:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC) P.S. Hi again to all those of you who I haven't butted heads against in a while.
There might be a difference, between scientific usage and regular usage, but it's not that significant. Funny that this has been the root of repeated court cases, including at least one in front of the US Supreme Court, and the creationist willfull misrepresentation of this difference has been the cause of creationists losing over and over and over and over. Millions of dollars flushed down the toilet. Creationists embarassed over and over and over for decades. Yeah, you are right, I guess it is not that significant.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I will no longer be editing this article since it generates such hostility from people such as yourself. However, if you want to have some viewpoint presented, then provide reliable sources.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 21:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The article is not a rant, but this thread in the talk page is. I suggest that Ezra Wax should read and try to understand the article, and that it is time to close this discussion topic. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC) The article is most certainly a rant. Don't blind yourself. It weakens your point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sculptus.Poe ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
You classify Evolution as a fact, give me some proof. I am a creationist and i have a question. Evolution is unprovable by the scientific method, so is creationsim, so that makes both Theories. There has been no observations of Evolution. The mosquitoes in the London Subway would be classified under "Adaptations" not Evolution. If you have evidence, show me. tell me. I want to know. --- Ian Moss--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.51.108 ( talk) 20:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
A fact is a scientific theory that has been proven by the scientific method... somthing that can be recreated by experament. Neither evolution or creation can be recreated or experiamented with, so we must gather and compare evidence to find a conclusion.---Ian Moss--- Ragz5 ( talk · contribs)
Sean i know exactly what 'proof' fact' theory' adaptation' and 'evolution' means, thats not what im asking. there are just to many holes and unstable 'proof' for evolution to be taught as a fact. why cant creationism be taught as a scientific theory in our schools today? they teach the Theory of evolution as a fact.---Ian Moss---
When I glance through this nonsense, it is clear to me that some of the people above have not actually read through this article, the related articles, and the references. Please do so before clogging this page with more irrelevant marginalia. Thanks.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC) |
The point of this statement is to differentiate the concept of the "fact of evolution", namely the observed changes in populations of organisms over time, from the " theory of evolution", namely the current scientific explanation of how those changes came about.
I think stating that the observed changes in populations is a fact is false. That is in itself a theory much of the time. Certainly in laboratory situations and historically corroborated situations it is a fact, but when it comes to fossil records, it is only a theory in the layman's sense of the word. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 02:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
My addition of the above words might read poorly, but it is important, because that is the point of the article and the article completely ignores it. If you have a better suggestion of how to say it, please speak up, or I'll try again with different wording. The random stuff was the result of a conflict between wiked and lookitup2 that messes me up sometimes. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 03:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The policy of Wikipedia is to use the sources which are relevant to a given topic found in the scholarly literature of the relevant academic discipline. If you are addressing evolution, it is part of a biology, which is a science. And well over 99 percent of all professional biologists accept evolution as the most viable theory for the facts observed. If you are discussing Jesus, the vast majority of the academic community believe that Jesus existed, and so the Wikipedia articles reflect that. We do not write the Jesus articles from the scientific viewpoint, or the Catholic articles from the scientific viewpoint, and we do not write the biology articles from the religious viewpoint. That is the way it is. If you do not like it, there are many many other wikis which do not follow these same principles, such as Conservapedia. You are welcome to go to a wiki which is more closely aligned with your preconceived notions about what "truth" is, or how a wiki should be organized and run.
As for your questions about "scientific fact", it either shows you have not read this article and the linked references, or you did not understand it. There are facts, and there are scientific facts. They are different. Learn the difference. There are theories and there are scientific theories. They are different. Learn the difference. When you understand these basic points, then you can actually discuss this intelligently.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 12:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
This page breaks the rule against original research. The opening paragraph has nine sources for one statement. That is by definition original research. You should be able to find one or at most two sources that definitively state the point. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 17:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Ezra appears to totally misunderstand what constitutes "original research" when he says that nine sources for one statement "is by definition original research". Only by Ezra's personal definition, perhaps, but certainly not by the definition on the OR page, or by any common meaning of the phrase. He also appears confused when he claims, "The reason why there are so many sources is because nobody says what is asserted". Um, no -- the reason why there are so many sources is because so *many* reliable souces say what is asserted that a) it's does a disservice to the reader to narrow it down to only one or two, and b) there is such voluminous evidence for the statement that it's useful to refer the reader to a great many diverse sources which cover the topic from varying lines of evidence. Another good reason for including many sources instead of one or two, especially in an article like this, is c) argumentative creationists often like to incorrectly claim that there's little or no support for some aspect of evolutionary biology, or try to handwave away a given source in order to attempt to undermine a claim, and thus it is useful to provide many sources for a claim in order to make the vacuousness of these creationist attacks apparent to a reader who might otherwise fall for these "evolution is an empty shell" attacks by propagandizing creationists.
Ezra, if you have an actual suggestion for improving the article, feel free to make it, but so far I've seen nothing in your edits to this page which rise above pointless contentiousness or naysaying. This latest attempt to dismiss a well-sourced claim as "original research" because it's "too" well sourced just descends into complete silliness. If you can't discuss the science on it own terms -- and simply namecalling it as "dogma" or (gasp) "naturalism" doesn't rise to the level of discussing the *content* of the science itself -- then ultimately you're just wasting your own time and ours on this talk page. -- Ichneumon ( talk) 04:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Putting aside the issue of whether this page is original research, I do agree that the list of 10 sources after the "frequently seen" phrase is excessive. The first source, from a webpage of "Moran, Laurence" contains mostly quotes from other sources that are listed as sources already on this page (from Gould, Lewontin, etc.) I would say this first source is unnecessary; all of its material is from sources that are already listed on this page. Davidstromberg ( talk) 21:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)\
In the process of preparing my response for the AfD discussion, I came across the following article by Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute: part 1, part 2. Given the source, it may or may not be useful in the article. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 03:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, since it agrees with the central theme of the article itself, it might be useful in a "even a prominent creationist agrees" sort of way. -- Ichneumon ( talk) 04:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The following was pasted on my talk page by the person who closed the AFD:-- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I do not believe that this personal opinion of TenPoundHammer means much.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
There are at least three independent editors whose view this as POV. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Ezra, please focus. If you cannot supply a list, then you have no reasons for the tag, as you cannot identify the problem. If you cannot ID the problem, then editors are quite correct in removing the tag. Shot info ( talk) 04:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I added the following to the opening paragraph. This is in accordance with the recommendation that I find sourced opposing views. It was predictably removed. Pray tell how you can honestly say that this statement or something similar does not belong in the article. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
However, those who disagree with the theory of common descent maintain that only microevolution is a fact, while macroevolution has not yet been established. [1] [2]
Such an addition (I don't see it - I guess you have not in fact added it) would be totally inappropriate in the lead. Apart from the POV-pushy nature of it, it is simply confusing to complicate the relatively simple "story-line" of the article by getting bogged down in "macro" vs. "micro" evolution at such an early stage. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 20:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand we have heavyweights such as Stephen Jay Gould, Nobel prize winners, Theodosius Dobzhansky, Ernst Mayr, etc, etc. On the other side we have an Michael Denton, an undistinguished biochemist whose "later book Nature's Destiny contradicts many of the points of" the cited book, and the work of some previously-unheard-of biology PhD, originally published in the St. Louis MetroVoice, a Christian newspaper, not a scientific journal. Guess where the WP:DUE weight lies in questions of science? Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
RFC comment. Hello, I've never seen this article before, nor do I edit much in evolution, nor do I have strong passions on the subject (I certainly believe in evolution, but I don't think that creationism is somehow morally wrong). Having said that, I have two comments:
This is a useful article. Kudos to those who compiled it. Cool Hand Luke 04:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I am assuming that this RFCSci is about adding the following quote to the first paragraph of the article:
(If this is true can someone edit the RFCSci to better reflect what this RFCSci purpose is.)
The above statement does not belong for a number of reasons. The most important argument for this is that even if it was true (scientifically) it is not relevant to the purpose of the article. If the article was 'Gravity as theory and fact' it would not be relevant to include in the article that the Newtownian theory of gravity is only an approximation to GR unless the article discusses the theories of gravity in detail. The purpose of the article is to distinguish between two scientific terms not to explain the details about which version of the theory is considered most correct. Second, even if we accepted that the proposed sentence was the scientific consensus (which it is most definitely not) and we accept the idea that because the article mentions the word theory is must discuss which version of theory is most scientifically accepted (which is stretching the purpose of the article) it most definitely does not belong in the first paragraph which summarizes the content. The statement is too tangential to the purpose of the article even if it was true.
TStein ( talk) 17:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment was requested, so I'm adding one. I'm not sure this article is salvageable. That characteristics of organisms have changed is observable. That the best currently known models for the types of change we see are variants of evolution also seems correct, but this interpretation is surely not a "fact" in the sense in which that term is being used here. One issue is that the term "evolution" already has an interpretation builtin. Thus evolution isn't a bare fact (if there is such a thing), because saying that we observe evolution is already characterizing our observations in a specific way. Furthermore, most practicing scientists (at least in areas I know, primarily physics) don't use terms like fact and theory. They use terms like observation and model. The question is what model is the best explanation of the observations. The only possible use of an article on "evolution as theory and fact" would seem to be to comment on actual use of those terms in the debate between scientists and creationists. Thus as far as the original question is concerned, I would have no problem at all including creationist views in this article.. But I have serious questions about the usefulness of the article as it exists. Hedrick ( talk) 19:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Even if the views of creationists are listed (and the revised version will have a much more extensive discussion of the history of the confusion about this created by creationists, and the legal challenges to the use of this confusion by the creationists), remember that we must follow WP:NPOV. By NPOV, we must present the views in proportion to their prominence in the relevant academic field; i.e. among academic biologists. And academic biologists support the theory of evolution by overwhelming numbers, well in excess of 99 percent. So...-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 20:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The consensus has been that NPOV tag belongs at the top of the page. The NPOV tag itself says that it may not be removed until the issue has been resolved. In order that I not violate the three revert rule, I ask that somebody else please return it. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 04:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The gist of this article is to attempt to explain how evolution may be both fact and theory. The answer, according to a rather unhelpful and unrepresentative Gouldian viewpoint adopted by the authors, is that since fact and theory are different we must be using the word 'evolution' in 2 different ways; firstly to refer to experimental observations and secondly to describe an explanatory framework in which all the observations fit together.
I contend that while this view is out there, it is not the widely understood and proper solution to this conundrum. The answer instead should be that it is perfectly correct for one and the same hypothesis to be simultaneously refered to as both fact and theory. 'Fact' says something about the degree of certainty we have in a hypothesis. 'Theory' is a different way of classifying a hypothesis and is applied on account of its complexity, explanatory and predictive power. Statements therefore such as 'humans and monkeys have a common ancestor', 'dinosaurs existed' and 'gene frequencies change over generations' may well be fact as well as theory, even though it may not be possible to observe any of these things directly.
Those who insist that 'fact' must be observable should consider the following sequence. Looking at something with the naked eye, looking at something through strong glasses, binoculars, an electron microscope, a particle detector etc. At what point along this continuum does fact turn into theory? Is for example the statement 'electrons exist' a fact? There is of course always the possibility that the measuring device is faulty (or that our own senses are deceiving us). Consider this from Douglas Futuyma:
I am convinced that to limit 'fact' to observations is an abuse of the way fact is used both in common parlance and by the scientific community, and that the article as it stands is misleading. I have reluctantly added POV to the article for scientific rather than creationist reasons. — Axel147 ( talk) 18:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
What is meant by evolution is a fact? Are you including common descent in the fact of evolution? Has the theory that there are beneficial mutations been proven to the level that it is considered a fact? The fact that is claimed in the opening sentence is a very weak fact. It is simply that the characteristics of populations change, but not any of the more controversial claims. It should be clearly stated in the article which parts of evolution are considered fact and probably by whom as well. -- Ezra Wax ( talk) 20:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
It is amazing to me how confused people seem to be with what I thought was a reasonably clear explanation. Either this is willful misreading of the article, or misinterpretation, or else I have to write the next version more clearly. Wow. -- Filll ( talk | wpc) 00:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
As you see I've attempted some major changes. I'm not sure I'm happy with them myself. The only part that was actually suspect in the previous version was the interpretation of "evolution is fact". I think the content is correct but think the readability could be better - it now seems bogged down with explanations. It case of compromising readability for technical accuracy and presenting all major viewpoints. What the opinion out there? — Axel147 ( talk) 02:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
WP:TALK |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It is time for us to state the truth. The theory of evolution is not true because there is too much evidence against it for it to be true. The number one disproof is the serious lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record. If there are not enough "transitional" fossils to demonstrate the smooth transition between animals, which never happened, then evolution did not happen either. The only type of evolution that ever happens, or did happen, or even will happen, is micro-evolution, which means one specific SPECIES of organism adapting to its environment, but never changing into a different SPECIES of organism.-- 98.199.76.184 ( talk) 10:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
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Is it really necessary to have ten citations for the first sentence? I would think that four or five would be far more than enough. J.delanoy gabs adds 17:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
After going through this article, my main difficulty is that it is written as if it were a college research paper. It is not encyclopedic in the least. I know the multiple references has been brought up repeatedly, but it is the first impression the reader gets and reminds me significantly of the introductory literature review in journal articles laying the foundation for the research presented. From there it goes on to laying out a definition of the main terms terms. Following this, it applies those terms to the topic. This smells highly of Original Research. I will attempt to highlight some of the statements that suggest that it is the case.
Statement one is akin to laying the foundation of original research: defining the terms. Encyclopedia articles are not responsible for defining terms. Wikipedia is especially useful in that you can simply link them. The whole section of defining terms should be removed and simply have the links
evolution,
fact, and
theory present in the introduction. Statement 2 would simply be left out of an encyclopedic article. Its presence gives [me] the impression that the attitude of the author is to try to clarify something based on his own research. Furthermore, he is using a table he compiled to illustrate a point he is trying to make. It is not a table of data or a table compiled in some other source, both of which would not be original research. This, however, is highly suspect. Statement 3 is also something you would typically find in a poorly written college research paper, not in an encyclopedia.
Instead of ever referring to an actual incidence of the fact/theory discussion, the writer(s) of this article refer to several sources, some which claim each perspective, but none which critique each perspective or the debate surrounding them. The writer(s) of this article took that task on themselves, which makes this article Original Research.
I do not know whether the article should be deleted or not, but it needs a COMPLETE rewrite. This is horrible for Wikipedia standards. The content may be fine and draw good conclusions, but that is irrelevant. It does not belong in its current state.
BobertWABC (
talk)
18:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that this page is a pure 'argument' page and is not at all encyclopedic. It has obviously been started by someone who was not getting their own way on a 'main' page. I suggest it is deleted. 86.133.176.101 ( talk) 19:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I still believe that the page should be deleted. The argument is silly. No physicist would claim that GR is a 'fact', it is a theory with an enormous body of experimental support covering a very wide range of conditions; evolution is the same. The attempt to use the word 'fact' to refer to evolution degrades science and reduces the argument against crackpot religious theories to a pointless philosophical discussion about the meaning of words. Evolution is a theory with a vast body of experimental support which no other theory comes close to matching. That is the only way to put it. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about the use of words here. As I said, no physicist would describe general relativity (GR) or any theory of physics as a fact even though they may be better experimental evidence for it than there is for one of the examples that you have given. In non-scientific use the word 'fact' is used for something about which we have a very high degree of confidence. As this discussion is essentially about science, my suggestion is that it is more scientific to use the word 'theory' when talking about evolution. If some people take this to mean that it is in any reasonable doubt that is unfortunate but ranting on that it is a 'fact' is not, in my opinion, the way to deal with dissenters even if they deliberately play on the meaning of 'theory'. On that basis , this page, as it is, serves no purpose. Perhaps it should be called, 'How confident is the scientific community in the theory of evolution?' Martin Hogbin ( talk) 18:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the use of the word 'fact' is fine when it is immediately followed up with a definition, as in the recent reversion by Teapotgeorge - in the title of the article this is not the case. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Why not have a page comparing scientific evidence for different theories for the origin of the species. This would be a far better way of doing things than the current page with its "yes it is/ no it is't" approach. Maybe with a summary table along the lines of:
Evolution - For, Against
Intelligent design - For, against
Creation - ...
Having been involved in an edit war over a table for a completely different topic I thing we should agree some rules such as: single (reasonable) sentence statements; only arguments for in the 'for' column; only generally accepted scientific evidence. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 18:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How about keeping some of the supporting statements from the anti-evolutionists (AE) but adding the reasons that they are not valid. This may appear to give some credence to the AE but it may be better to address the issues directly. Otherwise we may be giving the impression to some readers that there is something to hide. I know it is frustrating and somewhat un-encyclopedic but it is the kind of thing that has been done on some web sites, to refute the moon landing conspiracy and anti-relativity crackpots, for example. Otherwise we get claims of, 'things the evolutionists won't let you say'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 10:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Continued from the section above.
Axel147, is this the point that you are trying to make? In other words are you expecting this page to say what exactly is included in the well accepted theory of evolution and what is more speculative? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 21:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I think your questions show why use of the word 'fact' in a scientific context is best avoided, since it creates a vast, unnecessary, and unwelcome, philosophical debate on the meaning of words.
For example, I am not sure whether you are asserting in your first three questions that there is some disagreement between groups of evolutionary biologists as to the status of evolution. There may be some disagreement, but this is only about use of the word 'fact'; a semantic debate unconnected with biology.
Regarding your fourth question, different people do use terms in different ways and, again, 'fact' is a word used differently by different people.
Your last question, in my opinion, revolves around the meaning of words again. It is quite clear that evolutionary biologists agree substantially on the status of evolution but creationists hold a completely different view. A debate over the use of the word 'fact' will do nothing to clear up this issue.
If your questions represent the consensus view on what this page is about then my advice is to delete the page. It serves no purpose except to add fuel to an already blazing fire. Scientists should stick rigidly to statements along the lines of, 'evolution is a very well established theory...', and,'evolution is the only scientifically accepted theory...'. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Using the Earth rotating round the Sun as an example of a fact is an unfortunate choice. Mechanically, a star-planet combination rotates round its combined centre of gravity: it is no more true to say that the plantet rotates around the star than that the star rotates round the planet; it just happens that the distance of the centre of gravity of the star from the combined centre of gravity is less than the distance of the centre of gravity of the planet from the combined centre of gravity. -- ZScarpia ( talk) 11:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I did not ask you to do so. However, if you can find them, they would be welcome here.-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 18:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Opinion: the topic doesn't warrant a stand-alone article. Why not abridge it and integrate it into an existing article on evolution?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation-evolution_controversy are both good candidates.
As it stands, the article has a number of problems. There are numerous (albeit minor) grammatical errors, and the tone is awkward -- a distinct sense of desperation pervades the article's language and structure, as if the authors have tried to anticipate every possible objection to its contents. This kind of defensive writing is unnecessary (and unencyclopedic). Six or seven references is an overly large number; refer to any of the articles linked on Wikipedia's main page for comparison. Two or three references are enough. Also, works with titles such as "Speak Out Against The New Right" should be avoided when attempting to validate a scientific idea: these writings invite accusations of bias, and are clearly not scholarly in character.
On a related note, and as a reminder, it's worth pointing out that authorship on Wikipedia is not synonomous with ownership. The responses by some of this article's editors to various postings made previously indicate a disappointingly flippant attitude. The article is clearly in need of work, and some worthy suggestions have been made. Egos should not stand as an impediment to progress. Kpn engin ( talk) 04:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I read the discussion above, and I notice repeated attempts to delete it or tag it POV.
But this article serves an essential purpose: there is a tremendous amount of discussion initiated by creationists that question evoluiton by asserting that "evolution is just a theory". That assertion is contained in literally thousands of Christian books and websites. Addressing that concern would, ideally, be a minor paragraph in the Evolution article, but history has shown that a tremendous amount of debate revolves around it. So, rather than bog down the Evolution article, it is sensible and appropriate to have a dedicated article focused on the theory vs. fact topic.
For that reason, this article serves a valuable purpose: namely answering the oft-asked question "is evolution just a theory, and if it is, doesnt that make creationism equally valid?". -- Noleander ( talk) 18:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I share the opinion that the (currently) seven citation links in the lead are too many. I clicked all of them to see where they point. I suggest we remove every link to an ISBN number, since clicking it only leads to an opportunity to search for places to buy the book. I also suggest we remove the link to H. J. Muller (1959) "...there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea." because it's 50 years old and contradicts with the tenets of this article and with the link to Stephen Jay Gould (1981) "...facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty.". I also suggest we remove the link to Laurence Moran (1999) because the relevant parts of that article are direct quotes from the Stephen J. Gould (1981) article and so are redundant. The citation to Stephen J. Gould (1981) is sufficient to provide an example of the distinction between terms that is the subject of this wikipedia article; the other citations can all go away without loss of weight to the lead. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 09:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
"Evolution" (one word only) is not a theory. Evolution (one word only) is a fact. "The Theory of Evolution" (four words) is a theory. "Evolutionary Theory" (two words) is a theory. People may claim "evolution is a theory" when throwing volleys across the aisle but when biologists actually talk and write about the theory, they never name it "evolution" (one word only), they use one of the longer phrases above or even other phrases altogether that are handles for the subjects within evolutionary theory, such as "genetic drift", "kin selection", etc. They never say "evolution explains evolution", which would be true if evolution (one word) were a theory. The phrase "evolution is both theory and fact" creates its own problems by implying that one term simultaneously has two meanings when the two meaning are not simultaneously compatible--it must mean one or the other at any given usage. It's really two terms which are homonyms, and one of them is a lazy nickname for a multi-word phrase. A lot of this misunderstanding would be cleared up if we just stopped the lazy speak and said "evolutionary theory" when we meant it. There can be no doubt in the meaning of "evolution is a fact and evolutionary theory is a theory". I think this article should clear that up a little better, instead of inviting people to fall in the intellectual pot hole so we can laugh at their misinterpretation of an ambiguous phrase. I suggest inserting an adjective in the lead so that "This statement..." becomes "This unfortunate statement...", or "This potentially confusing statement...", or something else that immediately invites deeper examination. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 09:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is not about a particular statement, but is about the consensus view among biologists that evolution is both a theory and a fact. I have restored the original consensus version of the lead sentence, pending further discussion on what the scope of this article should be. If indeed the article is about the statement itself, as a direct quote, then I suppose it makes sense to attribute it as a quote in the first paragraph (like Ich bin ein Berliner). However, that is not the impression I get on reading this version of the lead. Starting the article with the phrase in quotations appears to be a rhetorical device to cast some doubt on the statement, and seems to be inappropriate for an article, both in intent and tone. My earlier edit was an attempt to fix what I perceived as an inappropriate tone. However, it was quickly reverted with the edit summary: "Undone. It's precisely that phrase that this article is about. This is not an article about evolution. It's about terminological distinction and unintentional confusion." I don't see how my edit changes in any substantive way the intention of the preceding version. But it did do away with what seemed to be a rather stylized rhetorical construction of starting an article with an (unattributed) quotation, which has a polemic rather than encyclopedic feel to it. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 22:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
What do we do with this? These are cited or directly quoted in the article:
"Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea." -- H. J. Muller (1959)
"And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty." -- Stephen Jay Gould (1981)
--
Another Stickler (
talk)
21:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I think you are confused. When the folks above are talking about "verifiability", they mean a certain Wikipedia policy by that name. They are not engaging in a discussion of epistemology. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 02:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I've always believed in evolution and still do because it is the most logical and or scientific when possible. After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted. Also evolution must be changed to Darwinian evolution because even if it were the only totally scientific theory people must distinguish. There is something called Vedic evolution. Gravity is called Newtonian gravity and is 99% right on on everyday Earth bound standards, but in the majority of the universe it fails and Einstein's laws of reltivity take over. Just because of a Christian-Darwin debate we must not falter on correct labeling.
Also can you make it clear how to create a talk page and fix these kinds of things so that actions are not limited to those who are constantly on wikipedia? Sfvace ( talk) 04:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The inclusion of polls in this article has already been discussed in the talk page archives. I always notice that there is a particular poll that those with a creationist agenda always want to push into articles about evolution: the "51% of Americans think God created humans in their present form" figure. Now, as I recall, there were many such polls available at some time or another, and this is by far the highest. The same cited CBS poll indicates that 67% of Americans believe that creation and evolution are compatible. I find the poll suspect to begin with, since most other polls find that the largest group of Americans believe in theistic evolution, that is evolution that is "guided by God". See for instance the Gallup poll on this. Furthermore, where reliable polls exist in other countries, the numbers show greater credence in evolution in nearly every other country with the exception of Turkey. Finally, the subject of this article is not "polls about Creationists and their beliefs", and so the easiest way to comply with the neutral point of view policy and the no original research policy is simply to leave the poll out of it. Cheers, siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 03:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
No poll is perfect but we can see the general result; around 1/2 or more not believing in Darwinian evolution in full or to some degree. If this is such a problem why not include several of the most respected polls rather than censor out any and all polls? If it's not ok to use the whole U.S. of America as an example on this matter of "objects to evolution" why is there below this matter a state of Oklahoma case? Does this case represent the whole world in perfection? If it was a supreme case and federal than at best it would be equal to the poll of America as a whole! And if you're so worried about the poll being unfair or something, why not add the other polls you like so that the uptmost use of facts are provided rather than edit it out to some vague obviously anti creationist biased statement? "There are those who refuse to accept" style, or what ever the user changed it back to, where it kind of implies there are small small pesky disease of people who won't accept the flawless fact? Well I suggest you view the evolution vid on youtube.com/playitalready and leave your comments, you won't get censored there. The vid isn't the best but the links are, or else I'd be 100% Darwinist still and my upcoming book wouldn't argue against it at all. What ever, later. Sfvace ( talk) 04:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
People I left "Some polls indicate that as many as 51% of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form, however the same polls indicate that 67% believe it is possible to believe in both God and evolution" under Religion in the United States [5]. enough petty conflicts just because there are more creationists in Saudi Arabia does not mean that one is better than the other its only Demographics, Now we must ask ourselves do the statistics belong under Evolution as theory and fact as well. I think Ill just stop commenting here. -- Zaharous ( talk) 05:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind inclusion of polls if they illustrate a point, but how is this one related to the heading it's under? No mention is made of a particular objection to the fact of evolution. I don't even think the "Objections..." section is needed, just as an "Evidence..." section isn't. It doesn't do anything to clear up the distinction between evolutionary fact and theory, which is the simple task of this increasingly bloated article. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 12:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Silly Rabbit, 50% is not a majority, nobody said the tag should come down, and your replacement poll doesn't raise an "objection to the fact of evolution" so it doesn't belong in that subsection any more than the poll it replaced did. I move we delete the subsection. Who's with me? -- Another Stickler ( talk) 12:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
First of all please refrain from strawman arguments. The poll said 51% do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution as fact, not 50. 51 is majority, that is a fact. Second, this was more detailed and factual/bias "There are those who refuse to accept the fact..." line. It infers some sort of strange minority cult against Darwin's theory. The only solution is to leave this poll along with two other most authoratative and respected polls and leave a note claiming in the beginning "Though polls may vary, various respected polls such as..."
Do you really think real enycopedias operate this way? Well...there are so many polls and it makes Darwin's theory look bad so let us delete them all? I respected wikipedia a lot till these actions have been taken. Please fix this.
Deleting the whole section is WORSE. You can't censor scientific arguments. Not all people who argue against aspects of Darwin's concepts are creationists and if they do it is not all for creationist reasons. Religious arguments belongs with them. Leave the scientific objects in this scientific section. People aren't going to come to wikipedia to see someone push a totally one sided Darwinian evolution model. Sfvace ( talk) 05:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This page and the discussion that surrounds it makes wikipedia look a joke. It is packed with ideologues on both sides and should just be deleted. Evolution should have a page and creation science should have a page. While this may be a valuable debate, this page has no place in an encyclopaedia, the title of the article itself makes a claim which is clearly not neutral. Perhaps "Academic discussion of evolution as theory and fact" would work better.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Janamills ( talk • contribs)
One could bring up a billion examples of how the theory and fact of evolution has been objected in the past, and none of them are relevant to this article that tries to explain; from a scientific viewpoint, why evolution is considered a fact and what a scientific theory is. Adding souch a section is clearly a biased edit becouse the Wikipedia Equal Validity claims that articles should not give equal validity to minority views, and in the scientific world, all contradictions to the evolutionary theory and fact are considered minority (and almost always biased) views. Read more about NPOV and equal validity here. Just becouse you don't like the evolutionary theory doesn't mean it's not a fact, sorry. I will now delete this section and please reply with a very good reason before reverting it back.
Just keep the objections in this, very relevant article, instead: Objections to evolution CooPs89 ( talk) 10:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I've always believed in evolution and still do because it is the most logical and or scientific when possible. After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted. Also evolution must be changed to Darwinian evolution because even if it were the only totally scientific theory people must distinguish. There is something called Vedic evolution. Gravity is called Newtonian gravity and is 99% right on on everyday Earth bound standards, but in the majority of the universe it fails and Einstein's laws of reltivity take over. Just because of a Christian-Darwin debate we must not falter on correct labeling. Also can you make it clear how to create a talk page and fix these kinds of things so that actions are not limited to those who are constantly on wikipedia? Sfvace ( talk) 05:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Sfvace but your original claims and research does not belong here on wikipedia. If you want to debate the issue or enligten other with your ideas, do it in a forum. And when your idea changes the scientific consensus about evolution, I promise to be the first to type it down in this article.After college I noticed some unscientific or illogical arguments in Darwin's model and when I try to confront them it's not allowed, mainly on wiki pages. This must be confronted.
Now we're getting somewhere. The article is about defining terms, not debating whether the terms apply. If we can remove the list of objections to the fact of evolution, we can also remove the list of supporting evidence for the fact of evolution. Surely there must be better places to collect those. This article has a small task; there's no need for it to be any larger than a few paragraphs. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 08:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I think Evolution compared with gravity should stay because it offers parallels between the two theories that help to illustrate the subject of the article. The Predictive power section probably does not need to be here. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 14:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"This article is about why the scientific consensus considers evolution as theory and fact" CooPs89, I don't think the article needs to explain why. That's done elsewhere already. It just needs to show that it's treated that way in the literature so people don't get confused. "and what a theory and fact is" CooPs89, it doesn't need to do that either. Each of those subjects already has its own main article, and is linked to from the first sentence of this article. -- Another Stickler ( talk) 19:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Silly Rabbit, I think I get your point that gravity is fact-and-theory too so might serve as a good illustration, but it still reads like a defensive argument for why it's OK for evolution to be considered fact and theory. Compare that to the "Evolution as theory and fact in the literature" section which covers the literature and is cited. I'm not gonna hack and slash without some shared opinion though. Since you agree about the "Predictive power" section, I'd like to remove it from this article. I don't want to destroy the information though; people put time into researching those citations. What article do you think I can move it to instead? -- Another Stickler ( talk) 19:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Dan8080 has introduced a large amount of WP:POV and often outright fallcious material into the article, and is now WP:EDITWARing to keep it there. Fallacies include:
There are probably more fallacies in this piece of ludicrous creationist propaganda, but the above is more than enough reason for reverting it. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)