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As noted in Talk:Pierre de Coubertin, a few citations or references would be nice to have to back up the claim that Zappas founded the modern Olympic Games. Actually, there aren't any references. -- Kimon 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues ( talk • contribs) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I've provided 5 'rs', saying that he was born Greek in a Greek village by Greek family. About the name, that's really interesting but still dont see the point on that here. I've checked also Zappas testament which is avaible online, he states clear that he is Greek without leaving doupts. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Alexikoua are you kidding me? He had the choice of either stating:
1. - I am a Greek 2. - I am a Turk
As we both know that Albania did not exist at his time of death, hence he could not have the nationality of a country that did not exist yet. Anyways I'll have to bring some references that he is more likely to have been Albanian. I know pretty well Labova and there are no greeks there, that's for sure Sulmues ( talk--Sulmues 21:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The Greek/Turk dillema is irrelevant since he lived in Romania after the end of the Greek Revolution. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
So you are proposing the Romanian/Greek dilemma? Solved by Evangelis as "Greek"? Again, he didn't have the option of giving himself the "Albanian" nationality, because such nationality did not exist at the time. Sulmues ( talk --Sulmues 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I suggest not to ignore 'rs' material. You are confusing nationality with ethnicity, and Albanian ethnicity, existed that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I personally am very skeptical about his ethnicity. My impression is that the Labovits have been exclusively Albanians in 1800 (and still are), however they would speak Greek pretty well as a second language since (1) it was the language of the church (2) many of them had emigrated in Greece to conduct better business (3) it was the language of many business activities. In addition, people would usually go to Greek schools organized by the Church, so they knew Greek pretty well since it was taught since their childhood. Now saying that the labovits were Greeks is going the extralength: speaking Greek as a second language does not make you a Greek and I can assure you that I know Labova pretty well. It would be the equivalent of saying that half of the Albanians today are Italian because they watch the Italian television so much that they know Italian as a second language at an impressive quality! Dr. Fedhon Meksi, great, great, great, great nephew of Vangjel Meksi teaches us that the Zhapas were grecophiles, and the Meksi clan were Albanofiles, but none of them are greek (see here [3])! Another more scholarly source [4] simply tells us that Vangjel Zhapa was a rich Albanian. If we start confronting sources we'll be soon edit warring, so the talk page is where we should reach consensus. Simply put, the sources that are currently in the article are not giving sufficient information, actually they are not giving no information at all, because they are not verifiable. Since we're at it, I also disagree with you saying that he Zappa is from Northern Epirus. He was born in the what was called Pashalik of Yanina: Northern Epirus came into existance as a political region only in 1914 when he had already died, hence I disagree with your revert. Could we please discuss? You are saying that the sources say he was from Northern Epirus, but I don't see those sources. Could you please bring them to the talk page? Btw you deleted two sources in the Pashalik of Yanina article [5] because they were not verifyable, but your sources that are here about his origin are not verifiable either and you are relying on them to show that Zappa was from Northern Epirus. I have one more reference ( [6], see page 9/19) that says:
Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri,most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813:
Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country. (...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro [Gjirokastër]… but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner. In this place [Qestorat, in Lunxhëri] everything was on a very different footing from what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better night than any since our departure from Ioannina.
Still think that Vangjel Zhapa was a Greek? He was born around that time when the traveller was writing his memories. In addition, not only Labova has alwasy been Albanian, but also Qestorat that has historically been more filogreek and from where Georgios Christakis-Zografos was, seems to be 100% Albanian according to this impartial British traveller. Sulmues ( talk --Sulmues 01:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
What I can conclude is that the entire english speaking bibliography, without any wp:synth exaggerations clearly says that he was ethnic Greek, no matter if the villages in his homeland were of mixed ethnicity. What I see is that Zappas was a Greek nationalist and partiot [ [7]], (his testament [ [8]]). I inform you that the source you brought talks about 'fluid' identities in southern Albania [ [9]] and not of a racial purity
Moreover, read about wp:rs and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is in order to see how wiki operates.. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Hm, from the two references that you brought: Golden, the first one, is saying that Zappas was born in Greece, so he seems to be ill-informed as Greece did not exist at that time. We all agree that he spent all his life for Greece only, but we are discussing his ethnicity, which is still open to be proved. The testament: gotta download that rar thingie but now don't have the time. As soon as I do I'll submit it to google translator. Now, the Austrian traveller clearly says:
they no longer spoke Greek
which is no "fluid identity" to me. Sulmues ( talk--Sulmues 21:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Your quest to prove the region's racial purity reminds me on some tottalitarian practices and does not touch me. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I understand why you are pushing this argument and trying to find any reference that might give your POV any glimmer of hope but it genuinely is pointless. The parents of Evangelis Zappas were Greek. He fought in the Greek War of Independence because he was a proud Greek patriot. He was the aide-de-camp of some of the greatest Greek heroes of the Greek War of Independence. He sponsored the building of Greek Orthodox Churches that conducted services in the Greek language. He founded schools that taught the Greek language. The guy was so proud to be Greek that he bought the ancient Panathenian stadium to guarantee its future and refurbished it to host the Olympic Games for all time. One of his most important friends was Panagiotis Soutsos a Greek newspaper editor who wrote a glowing report about Zappas in his Helios newspaper calling him the greatest Greek hero of modern times. Trying to claim that Zappas was anything other than Greek is clearly an effort to massage history for political self-interests. It's just not worth pushing that POV. I appreciate your entertaining efforts. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 03:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
[Moving the tabs over to the left so that we use up less space and starting a new heading.] Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 00:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
You failed to mention the Greek War of Independence and the Panathenian stadium. Are you going to tell me that it was actually the Albanian War of Independence and that Panathenian is a common Albanian surname too? Are you going to claim that his shares in the Greek Steamship company were Albanian? Why did he leave his vast fortune for the re-establishment of the Olympic Games in Athens in Greece? If he were as Albanian, as you say he is, then why didn't he build a stadium where he was born. Why didn't he appoint any Albanians in the first all-Greek Olympic Committee? If he were an Albanian as you suggest, which he was not, what an incredibly stupid Albanian he must have been who was prepared to die for the liberation of Greece, was building schools to spread the Greek language in foreign countries, and Greek churches in foreign countries. Why did he build the Zappeion and why is it the National Exhibition Centre of Greece? A man who cared so much for Greek Independence, the Greek language, the Greek Orthodox Church, re-establishing the Olympic Games could not possibly be Albanian. Most notably his behaviour was the exact opposite of your behaviour on WP. Evangelis Zappas is a Greek national hero. There is no Zappeion in Albania or Romania. He had his head and his wallet buried in Greece. Albania got his bones (excluding his skull). All Romania got was his flesh. Evangelos and Zappas are Greek names too. Evangelio means "gospel" and Zappas is a Greek name too. Only nobody had to change the name to make it Greek. The name was Greek all along. And ofcourse, Albania didn't exist at the time. He was born in Ottoman-occupied north-western Greece in a corner of what once was a part of the Byzantine Empire. The word "Hellene" is used by all Greek-speakers from all the ancient peoples of Greece. He was a "Hellene", he was a Greek-speaker, he was proud to be a Hellene and he showed it in many ways. His behaviour was exactly the opposite of yours (since you are doing everything in your power to change Greek history in to Albanian history). You cannot call him Albanian in retrospect. He wasn't born in Albania. His people were Hellenes not Albanians. If you want to call him an Epirote. That's ok with me. Epirotes are Greek. But are you so desperate you need to recruit a Greek patriot and hero in to your cause. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 00:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Unquestionably Greek because he contributed to Greece? Hmm well, first, I'm afraid YOU are trying to turn what was an Albanian personality into a Greek one, and the examples of this typical Greek behavior are literally countless because, it's fairly clear even to a blind that in all wiki articles concerning Albanians and Arvanites, you're making a titanic effort to deny the Albanian roots of every Arvanite/Albanian personality that is somehow linked to your country's history. I personally think that you just don't tolerate the idea that your country's modern history is UNQUESTIONABLY and INDISSOLUBLY linked to the Arvanites. That's understandable..but it just doesn't change reality! Second, when will you Greek finally understand that the fact that someone contributes to or dies for your (or any) country DOES NOT MEAN he belongs to your country or ethnos? Because, according to this exquisitely idiotic logic, which reminds me of the father of the funny Greek spinster in My Big Fat Greek Wedding who even made the kimono Greek, lord Byron who fought and died in the Greek war of independence was Greek! And so should be all the philanthropists or foreign fighters who have contributed to or fought for other countries and have embraced other people's causes, for that matter. The English, Germans, Italians, Brazilians etc who fought in the Spanish Civil War were perhaps Spaniards?? What about the mercenaries, political personalities, inventors, scientists etc, contributing throughout history to nations different from their own? Tesla was American or Serbian? Why is he considered Serbian then when EVERYTHING he did was linked to and created on American soil? What nationality is Che Guevara? Cuban? Bolivian? It depends on who he fought for right? Was Marko Boçari Greek because he fought for Greece?? Who else was he supposed to fight for considering that he was part of the IMMENSE Arvanite community who made up the majority of the population of Greece of that time?? Who were the Arvanite leaders of your War of Independence supposed to fight for considering they were the (major) population of Greece (according to Turkish defters)?? The Arvanite personalities who made MAJOR contributions to the birth of the Greek states, its education system, economy and politics did it as INHABITANTS or citizens of that country, as a MINORITY COMMUNITY of that country. Simple as that! Zhapa (which means skin in Albanian) was an inhabitant of Greece and contributed to this community. That's a normal respectful bevaior, this is what every immigrant in a country would do in sign of gratitude and why not, love! Just as many Arvanites before him, also this Albanian gave his contribution to the Greek, he couldn't have done otherwise considering the delicate and extreme fragile situation of his Albanian fatherland. He can be called a Greek citizen yes, but CANNOT be denied his roots and ethnicity. Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are Americans yes, but they are ITALIAN-American (De Niro said Arbëresh in an interview, doesn't matter) and there's no way someone can deny this!! You can keep playing with the words racism to your advantage as much as you want, you've always profiteered from this, but Albanians base the national identity on blood and ethnicity (just like many other people), not culture!! You just have to accept that cause keep denying it by counterposing your personal Greek view on nationality is useless and quite self-delusional. It's just illogical and utterly stupid (not to mention chauvinistic) to deny someone's roots. The Arbëresh personality of Italy who made lots of contributions to the Italian state were Italians?? Yes but do Italians deny Antonio Gramsci's, Francesco Crispi's etc origins? Or did they deny their own roots? No they don't and no they didn't, only you Greeks deny other people's origins and you're very aware of the why, I'm afraid!!! Etimo ( talk) 17:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
If someone has something (serious) to say about Zappas being related with Albania, suppose he should initiated a discussion here. Since he is irrelevant with Albania, I've removed the bot-added wpsq. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Above, I had entered sources that the whole village of Labove at the time of Zhapa, Rapper, p.9 was Albanian. I interrupted the talk earlier because a user who called Pandeli Sotiri a Greek and insulted me continuously interrupted a discussion. Now that user has a ban on the Balkans. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Please stop misusing Rapper, he says NOTHING about him being Albanian. Also about Clayer you have been instructed by Fut. that he does NOT say that (see Greek-Albanian cooperation board). You don't believe that Pristina&Islami tow stalinist period Albanian sources re rs right? Alexikoua ( talk) 19:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
the usual...zappas came from an albanianspeaking village (but i dont know if his family were vlach or greek speaking) but he clearly wasn't 'albanian' 87.202.35.131 ( talk) 04:19, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Evangelos Zappas → Evangelis Zappas
Evangelis was the exact name he used (it's also the preferred name form of Evangelos in Epirus). This is obvious in various inscriptions: in his statue in front of Zappeion and his crypt (and also according to his testament) . Alexikoua ( talk) 20:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I can foresee that this source will be denied because it would not qualify as a reliable source
[18], however it has links to many works on Vangjel Zhapa from Vangjel Meksi, Qirjako Hila, Thanas Hoda, Thanas Meksi, Ilir Kontini, Agron Alibali, Fedhon Meksi, Filip Boga, Koço Toti, Dhimo Mali, Fejzi Hoxha, and Foto Toti. It also links how
Vangjel Meksi was for full 5 years his master of popular medicine when he went to Janina (from when he was 13 years old until he became 18). He learned from Meksi the folk physician profession. In addition it contains valuable info on the lawsuit for his $800M wealth left in Istanbul, which was eventually pocketed by the Greek government in 1960 through the
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople--
Sulmues (
talk)
04:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Fedhon! A classical Albanian name!
Sulmues, please realise that Mussolini and Hoxha period is over. Half of the people you display above are national Greeks. --
Euzen (
talk)
18:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello, was Zappas Greek or Vlach? Because somewhere is that he was Vlach, so i wonder to know it, because i know that his village is not in vlachophone part of Albania. Thanks.--
213.151.217.149 (
talk)
10:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Btw, what is that funny touristic "reference" (no 2) about "Greek-Romanian"? Needs correction to "Greek Vlach".-- Euzen ( talk) 17:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Numerous publications incorrectly claim that an event held in 1888 (that was neither sponsored by Evangelis Zappas or formally organised by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870 and 1875 Olympic Games) was one of the Olympic Games sponsored by Zappas. The 1888 event was held at a gymnasium that was built from the Zappas legacy. The event was organised by an individual and the event did not resemble Olympic Games in any way, shape or form. All those who categorise the 1888 event as an Olympic event are very much mistaken.
Cut and paste from Wikipedia: "After an extended period of litigation between the Greek government and a group of Zappas' relatives over Zappas' bequests, Konstantinos Zappas secured the execution of Zappas' will. The Greek government used Zappas' money to complete the Gymnasterion, a central gym, in 1878, and to continue the work on the Zappeion exhibition center, which had begun in 1873 and was frequently interrupted ... As in 1875, Fokianos took charge of the sporting events (but did so independently of the earlier Olympic Committee), which were postponed up till April 30, 1889. These Games were not co-ordinated by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870, and 1875 Zappas Games, but by Fokianos alone. Thirty athletes competed in a variety of disciplines including discus, pole long leap (over a ditch), weightlifting, mast climbing, and rope climbing among others. All participants were clad alike.[2]
In 1890, a royal decree, signed by Crown Prince Constantine and the foreign minister Stephanos Dragoumis, announced that the Olympiad would be reinstated, at four-year intervals, from 1888. The next Olympics were officially planned for 1892, but did not take place due to the Greek government's claim of lack of funding.[23] In the event, the Panathenaic stadium would be used to stage the Olympic Games in 1896, the first to be held under the auspices of the International Olympic Committee.[2]" Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 02:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I am going to revert to my last version. The content is sourced, and I don't think the edits are that controversial! Majuru ( talk) 22:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
These: [1] [2] [3] tell the truth. Rolandi+ ( talk) 12:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Finally,Evangelis Zappas,a Vlach by descent,took the idea and ran with it,paving the way for the modern Olympics.
Some of the biggest national benefactors and personalities of the Greek history belong to Vlach families, like Pavlos Melas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas, Stefanos and Ion.
Kolletes and Spyridon Lampros were Vlachs.So were the great national benefactors George Averoff,Nicolaos Stournares,Tositsas,Sinas,Evangelos and Konstantions Zappas...
The above sources would normally be good additions to the article if they weren't general survey sources that briefly mention Evangelos Zappas and the formation of the modern Olympics. Kaphetzopoulos, for example, focuses on the history of Northern Epirus and only lists the names of "Vlachs" (i.e., Aromanian-speaking Greeks) who contributed to Greece including Evangelos Zappas (Kaphetzopoulos, however, provides no details about the modern Olympics or even about Zappas's historic role in their development). As for Thomopoulos and Smerlas, they only provide a summary of Greek history with no references to primary or even secondary sources (no way to confirm where they're getting their information from). I don't really mind including an Aromanian origin for Zappas, but such an origin is technically fringe since mainstream scholars who've studied the modern Olympics (i.e., Brownell, Decker, Gerlach, Hill, Landry, Landry, Yerlès, etc.) have already determined that Evangelos Zappas was a Greek. Umpire Empire ( talk) 20:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Vlachs are not Aromanian-speaking Greeks.Don't believe every lie you hear in the Greek media.Also don't delete the Vlach origin anymore.Who said that mainstream scholars claims he was greek?
Rolandi+ (
talk)
08:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: Can you prove that the Aromanian origin is fringe? If not stop deleting it. Rolandi+ ( talk) 08:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: You are more ignorant that I expected.Wikipedia's rules makes it clear that one theory will be included if it isn't proved it is fringe.So stop and this is the last time I say this to you.There are reliable sources for the Aromanian origin and it will be added. Rolandi+ ( talk) 14:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Rolandi+: Calling me "ignorant" is proof that you can't demonstrate that Zappas's Aromanian origin is the consensus among mainstream/specialist scholars (also, Zappas being Aromanian isn't even a theory since there are no biographical facts to support Zappas's supposed Aromanian origin). The sources you claim are reliable are in fact weak and unreliable when compared to the serious scholars already in the entry who have specifically studied Zappas and the modern Olympics. Ultimately, your consistent inability to comprehend why your sources are weak is sadly proof that you're not here to build an encyclopedia. Umpire Empire ( talk) 17:49, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: Yes,you are ignorant of Wikipedia's rules.You can't delete well-sourced infos only because you believe your sources are "better" or "more reliable". Rolandi+ ( talk) 18:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes there are three sources supporting the Aromanian origin so it will be added. Rolandi+ ( talk) 07:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Hormova, is to the west of Lunxheri. De Rapper does not include Hormova as being in Lunxheri. You where saying in the above comments that those events occurred in Lunxheri. De Rapper gives a list of Lunxheri villages. The source needs to encompass one or all of them not villages of the Kurvelesh area like Hormova and Kardhiq. Resnjari ( talk) 22:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
The mountian of biography just says he was a Greek. They of course don't focus on Lunxheri and the dynamics as their research is about the Olympics etc. De Rapper has done a holistic wide ranging study of the region and hence those figures come into focus as well (that article by De Rapper is from the book The new Albanian migration and in the book De Rapper's article has extensive footnotes missing from that pdf version if you want to check it out. Has Kretsi' article on Mursi too.). As for "the above quote you provided doesn't state that Liountzi was ethnically pure Albanian." no it does not. Nonetheless nor does it mean that Lunxheri was Greek either. But what De Rapper does point to unequivocally is that Lunxheri from the early nineteenth century, from Western government reports and from Western travellers who went to the area identified Lunxheri as a Albanian speaking area. And apart from a change in language from Greek speaking Pogoni, they noticed a change in customs and that there was a kind of border of sorts in the area. So though there is nothing about Albanian identity, but there is nothing about Greek identity either. What is certain is there was a difference between different linguistic groups to a certain extent which start to change later in the nineteenth century when identity becomes a contested ground. As for "Greek origin doesn't mean self-declaration." yet De Rapper points to that in his article. When Lunxhots went abroad they identified with Greek identity and names Zappas in that category. He also states that those that stayed behind in Lunxheri, it is difficult to ascertain what they thought of themselves during that time. "The only fact about Zappas is that he rejected any connection with an Albanian national identity. That's reasonable because he belonged to a diferrent ethnic background." Sorry but saying "that's reasonable" is just wp:OR. De Rapper does not state this. All sources just state that Zappas was Greek without giving context. De Rapper is inline with this with the only addition of giving the context of what was going with individuals like Zappas from Lunxheri, when they migrated. Resnjari ( talk) 01:42, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
It was a process. Those who migrated outside of the region identified as Greek, those that remained in the region it was difficult to ascertain, as Greek has multiple meanings. De Rapper regarding the locals outlines that Lunxhots used it in a religious sense, as for its ethnic component that is more difficult to ascertain except those who migrated to foreign places like Zappas. What is constant and beyond doubt is that the people lived in an area is identified as Albanian speaking. As for "I'm glad you admit that the region he lived was not a "pure Albanian region". all i said was that it is difficult to attribute identities on the area as outlined by De Rapper but that the region was consistently identified as Albanian speaking, back in the early 19th century and even now and that part is fact. That's all, as for identity that is a whole different matter. Church, schools, religion, nationalism all played their role in shaping conflicts and identity contests in the area as outlined by De Rapper. Resnjari ( talk) 12:43, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
p.8."The spread of Greek schools and religion also means that many school teachers and priests were of Greek background, coming either from Dropull and Pogon or from Greece."
Regarding Labovë i will quote Winnifrith, who cites Clarke, a British scholar who was there in the early interwar period when he was leaving from the Pogoni villages into Lunxhëri. Labove is the first of the Lunxhëri villages when crossing from Pogoni (since you have the book you can check it). Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Duckworth. p. 165. "On 24 January Clarke left for Labovë. He noted that then as now he was crossing a linguistic border from an area where Greek is spoken to one where it was merely understood. But he also said that there was little difference between the architecture of Labovë and of the villages he previously visited, and that both in Labovë and farther north at Saraganishtë there was a certain amount of pro-Greek feeling."
Hammond who was also there during the interwar period, list in full all the Greek villages of Albanian Pogoni and Labovë does not figure in any of them. Hammond, Nicholas (1967). Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas. Clarendon Press. states: p.27. "The present distribution of the Albanian-speaking villages bears little relation to the frontier which was drawn between Greece and Albania after the First World War. In Map 2 I have shown most of the Greek speaking villages in Albanian Epirus and some of the Albanian-speaking villages in Greek Epirus. The map is based on observations made by Clarke and myself during our travels between 1922 and 1939."; p.28-29. In Llunxherië the villages are more compact but smaller, Shtegopul and Saraginishtë, for instance, having only fifty houses each; the people of Llunxherië are all Albanian Orthodox Christians, except those of Erind, who are partly Christian and Mohammedan, and the men, but not the women, know some Greek. Zagorië has the same characteristics, its ten villages extending from Doshnicë to Shepr; the group is endogamous and does not marry with the people of Llunxherië. Pogoni, or Paleo-Pogoni as some people call it, consists of seven Greek-speaking villages near.y 3,000 ft. above sea-level (Poliçan, Skorë, Hlomo, Sopik, Mavrojer, Çatistë, and, on the Greek side of the frontier, Drimadhes), the biggest, Poliçan, has a population of 2,500 persons and Sopik has 300 houses. The Pogoniates normally marry only within their group, but occasionally a bride may be taken from Zagorië and then she is taught Greek."
Also in that paragraph that you cite from Clayer, the whole thing says:
"In 1929, when the government was developing a project to open a boarding school for Greek-speaking children in Labovë (in the region of Rrezë). northeast of Gjirokastër), Branko Merxhani, a contributor In the local newspaper hut also a deputy school inspector, wrote in a report for the Minister that this idea had not been well received by the local Albanian Christians from Rrezë, Zagori and Lunxhëri and that it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school. The inspector, however, intervened against what he considered an attempt by Branko Merxhani to interfere in the Greek-speaking teaching and, as a matter of fact, the project was never realised."
Apart from Clayer mixing up the regions where Labovë is (Rrezë is the area of the Vjosa valley with its centre Përmet) she is in line with De Rapper, Winnifrith's citation of Clarke and Hammond. Note that Clayer writes Greek-speaking children and the period of time is identified as the interwar one. Hammond and Clarke who by no means can be called Albanian sympathizers clearly noted they where crossing a linguistic boundary and that customs also differed in the area. Women knew no Greek, the men knew some Greek, and Clayer cites the matter of schools and Greek education. She also interestingly cites Merxhani noting in his report that the locals don't at all seem to be pleased with the Albanian government initiative to have that Greek school around (So much for "Albanisation"). One also does not know if the Greek school was for Greek kids from neighbouring villages of Pogoni as Labovë is the last Lunxheri village before entering Pogoni villages (see any map out there). I say this because she then follows on in the next sentence by saying that "it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school." So either some kind of language shift was occurring under the Albanian government's nose or the Albanian government itself was promoting Greek education for children in Albanian speaking villages whose mothers knew no Greek and fathers had passive knowledge of Greek. Clayer mixed things up in the paragraph. But lets say she didn't, the issue of education still aligns as those "Greek speaking children" were exposed to Greek in the school system as De Rapper states. One wonders how these kids where communicating with their parents, especially their mothers who knew no Greek ! Yes there was pro-Greek felling and that was part of the larger tug of war regarding identities by the Lunxhots which De Rapper also outlines. Interestingly Hammond too like Green cites the taking of Albanian brides by Greek speaking Pogoni. Resnjari ( talk) 00:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Guy, Nicola C. "Linguistic boundaries and geopolitical interests: the Albanian boundary commissions, 1878–1926." Journal of Historical Geography 34.3 (2008): 457-458.
The southern commission began its work at Monastir, on 4 October 1913. Obstacles soon materialized: in fifty-eight days the commissioners visited only six villages and interviewed fourteen people. The Greek government was repeatedly accused of attempting to influence decision-making with the use of extensive propaganda and subversive initiatives. The commission reported a so-called ‘Sacred Legion’ which cried ‘union or death’ at every opportunity, and the presence of irregular troops that were used to ensure that all doors of Christian homes remained closed to conceal the Albanian-speaking women inside, or so it was believed. Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Doughty-Wylie, the British representative and commission chairman, reported that houses were painted in the Greek colours of blue and white, and that the church bells rang whenever the commission arrived at a town or village. He believed that this was meant to reinforce the Christian (Orthodox) and thus supposedly Greek nature of the town. He wrote that the commissioners were always greeted either by a hostile crowd, clamouring for union with Greece, or by school children speaking Greek and waving Greek flags.
The inference was that the ‘Greeks’ were orchestrating these welcome parties. The suspicion of the commissioners seemed verified on one visit, when a group of children appeared to speak Greek. However, when the senior Austrian delegate, Bilinski, threw down a handful of coins, they all started squabbling in Albanian. The commissioners appear to have soon encountered serious problems in using language as the sole criterion to determine ethnography and hence establishment of an international boundary. Many people in the region were bilingual or trilingual, and spoke Albanian in their homes (mother tongue), but Greek for business or general communication outside the home (lingua franca), whilst Turkish was the official language, and some also spoke Vlach or a Slavonic dialect. This bi-or multi-lingualism is understandable given that there was no separate Albanian Orthodox Church (until 1923), no agreed written language until the Monastir Alphabet Congress (1908), and that the teaching of Albanian had only recently been allowed in schools. Additionally, the commissioners discovered that within the family, the younger generation, particularly male members, commonly spoke Greek. The commissioners surmised that this phenomenon was a result of economic necessity: Greek was the language of trade, whereas Albanian had no wide commercial usage. On the other hand, the older generation, especially women, generally spoke Albanian.
That is what Nicola Guy, a peer reviewed scholar in her article on the boundary commission write regarding Albanian speakers. This is in line the De Rapper and Skoulidas about Orthodox Albanian speakers with the older generations being monlignual and the younger ones due to schools and so forth becoming Greek. Clarke noted in Labove, the women were monolignual Albanian speakers. I have the article if you want. Send me a message if you want me to email it to you. Resnjari ( talk) 09:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Could an admin please put this article under protection? Thanks. Othon I ( talk) 13:32, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Khirurg, stop with your childish reverts. You've continously been doing ridiculous changes to the article (god forbid if Zappas is referred to as an Aromanian before as a Greek in a sentence). You like it or not, there are sources supporting Aromanian ancestry for Zappas. Saying he's an ethnic Greek, and only an ethnic Greek, is POV. By the way, lazy edit summaries such as "rv per sources" seem bad faith to me. I don't think I need to explain why. Super Ψ Dro 09:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? Super Ψ Dro 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of Aromanian ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: Usha Uthup, Roger Clinch, Adam Simac, Juan Padilla (second baseman) and Martín Caballero. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.
In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. Super Ψ Dro 10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greekand numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans- I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. Khirurg ( talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
"was a Greek patriot"doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to Greeks would indicate that Zappas was ethnic Greek, which would violate NPOV. Zappas's ethnicity is not relevant to their notability, and hence should be omitted per MOS:ETHNICITY. ( Summoned by bot) Politrukki ( talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
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As noted in Talk:Pierre de Coubertin, a few citations or references would be nice to have to back up the claim that Zappas founded the modern Olympic Games. Actually, there aren't any references. -- Kimon 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues ( talk • contribs) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I've provided 5 'rs', saying that he was born Greek in a Greek village by Greek family. About the name, that's really interesting but still dont see the point on that here. I've checked also Zappas testament which is avaible online, he states clear that he is Greek without leaving doupts. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Alexikoua are you kidding me? He had the choice of either stating:
1. - I am a Greek 2. - I am a Turk
As we both know that Albania did not exist at his time of death, hence he could not have the nationality of a country that did not exist yet. Anyways I'll have to bring some references that he is more likely to have been Albanian. I know pretty well Labova and there are no greeks there, that's for sure Sulmues ( talk--Sulmues 21:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
The Greek/Turk dillema is irrelevant since he lived in Romania after the end of the Greek Revolution. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
So you are proposing the Romanian/Greek dilemma? Solved by Evangelis as "Greek"? Again, he didn't have the option of giving himself the "Albanian" nationality, because such nationality did not exist at the time. Sulmues ( talk --Sulmues 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I suggest not to ignore 'rs' material. You are confusing nationality with ethnicity, and Albanian ethnicity, existed that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I personally am very skeptical about his ethnicity. My impression is that the Labovits have been exclusively Albanians in 1800 (and still are), however they would speak Greek pretty well as a second language since (1) it was the language of the church (2) many of them had emigrated in Greece to conduct better business (3) it was the language of many business activities. In addition, people would usually go to Greek schools organized by the Church, so they knew Greek pretty well since it was taught since their childhood. Now saying that the labovits were Greeks is going the extralength: speaking Greek as a second language does not make you a Greek and I can assure you that I know Labova pretty well. It would be the equivalent of saying that half of the Albanians today are Italian because they watch the Italian television so much that they know Italian as a second language at an impressive quality! Dr. Fedhon Meksi, great, great, great, great nephew of Vangjel Meksi teaches us that the Zhapas were grecophiles, and the Meksi clan were Albanofiles, but none of them are greek (see here [3])! Another more scholarly source [4] simply tells us that Vangjel Zhapa was a rich Albanian. If we start confronting sources we'll be soon edit warring, so the talk page is where we should reach consensus. Simply put, the sources that are currently in the article are not giving sufficient information, actually they are not giving no information at all, because they are not verifiable. Since we're at it, I also disagree with you saying that he Zappa is from Northern Epirus. He was born in the what was called Pashalik of Yanina: Northern Epirus came into existance as a political region only in 1914 when he had already died, hence I disagree with your revert. Could we please discuss? You are saying that the sources say he was from Northern Epirus, but I don't see those sources. Could you please bring them to the talk page? Btw you deleted two sources in the Pashalik of Yanina article [5] because they were not verifyable, but your sources that are here about his origin are not verifiable either and you are relying on them to show that Zappa was from Northern Epirus. I have one more reference ( [6], see page 9/19) that says:
Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri,most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813:
Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country. (...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro [Gjirokastër]… but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner. In this place [Qestorat, in Lunxhëri] everything was on a very different footing from what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better night than any since our departure from Ioannina.
Still think that Vangjel Zhapa was a Greek? He was born around that time when the traveller was writing his memories. In addition, not only Labova has alwasy been Albanian, but also Qestorat that has historically been more filogreek and from where Georgios Christakis-Zografos was, seems to be 100% Albanian according to this impartial British traveller. Sulmues ( talk --Sulmues 01:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
What I can conclude is that the entire english speaking bibliography, without any wp:synth exaggerations clearly says that he was ethnic Greek, no matter if the villages in his homeland were of mixed ethnicity. What I see is that Zappas was a Greek nationalist and partiot [ [7]], (his testament [ [8]]). I inform you that the source you brought talks about 'fluid' identities in southern Albania [ [9]] and not of a racial purity
Moreover, read about wp:rs and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is in order to see how wiki operates.. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Hm, from the two references that you brought: Golden, the first one, is saying that Zappas was born in Greece, so he seems to be ill-informed as Greece did not exist at that time. We all agree that he spent all his life for Greece only, but we are discussing his ethnicity, which is still open to be proved. The testament: gotta download that rar thingie but now don't have the time. As soon as I do I'll submit it to google translator. Now, the Austrian traveller clearly says:
they no longer spoke Greek
which is no "fluid identity" to me. Sulmues ( talk--Sulmues 21:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Your quest to prove the region's racial purity reminds me on some tottalitarian practices and does not touch me. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I understand why you are pushing this argument and trying to find any reference that might give your POV any glimmer of hope but it genuinely is pointless. The parents of Evangelis Zappas were Greek. He fought in the Greek War of Independence because he was a proud Greek patriot. He was the aide-de-camp of some of the greatest Greek heroes of the Greek War of Independence. He sponsored the building of Greek Orthodox Churches that conducted services in the Greek language. He founded schools that taught the Greek language. The guy was so proud to be Greek that he bought the ancient Panathenian stadium to guarantee its future and refurbished it to host the Olympic Games for all time. One of his most important friends was Panagiotis Soutsos a Greek newspaper editor who wrote a glowing report about Zappas in his Helios newspaper calling him the greatest Greek hero of modern times. Trying to claim that Zappas was anything other than Greek is clearly an effort to massage history for political self-interests. It's just not worth pushing that POV. I appreciate your entertaining efforts. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 03:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
[Moving the tabs over to the left so that we use up less space and starting a new heading.] Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 00:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
You failed to mention the Greek War of Independence and the Panathenian stadium. Are you going to tell me that it was actually the Albanian War of Independence and that Panathenian is a common Albanian surname too? Are you going to claim that his shares in the Greek Steamship company were Albanian? Why did he leave his vast fortune for the re-establishment of the Olympic Games in Athens in Greece? If he were as Albanian, as you say he is, then why didn't he build a stadium where he was born. Why didn't he appoint any Albanians in the first all-Greek Olympic Committee? If he were an Albanian as you suggest, which he was not, what an incredibly stupid Albanian he must have been who was prepared to die for the liberation of Greece, was building schools to spread the Greek language in foreign countries, and Greek churches in foreign countries. Why did he build the Zappeion and why is it the National Exhibition Centre of Greece? A man who cared so much for Greek Independence, the Greek language, the Greek Orthodox Church, re-establishing the Olympic Games could not possibly be Albanian. Most notably his behaviour was the exact opposite of your behaviour on WP. Evangelis Zappas is a Greek national hero. There is no Zappeion in Albania or Romania. He had his head and his wallet buried in Greece. Albania got his bones (excluding his skull). All Romania got was his flesh. Evangelos and Zappas are Greek names too. Evangelio means "gospel" and Zappas is a Greek name too. Only nobody had to change the name to make it Greek. The name was Greek all along. And ofcourse, Albania didn't exist at the time. He was born in Ottoman-occupied north-western Greece in a corner of what once was a part of the Byzantine Empire. The word "Hellene" is used by all Greek-speakers from all the ancient peoples of Greece. He was a "Hellene", he was a Greek-speaker, he was proud to be a Hellene and he showed it in many ways. His behaviour was exactly the opposite of yours (since you are doing everything in your power to change Greek history in to Albanian history). You cannot call him Albanian in retrospect. He wasn't born in Albania. His people were Hellenes not Albanians. If you want to call him an Epirote. That's ok with me. Epirotes are Greek. But are you so desperate you need to recruit a Greek patriot and hero in to your cause. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 00:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Unquestionably Greek because he contributed to Greece? Hmm well, first, I'm afraid YOU are trying to turn what was an Albanian personality into a Greek one, and the examples of this typical Greek behavior are literally countless because, it's fairly clear even to a blind that in all wiki articles concerning Albanians and Arvanites, you're making a titanic effort to deny the Albanian roots of every Arvanite/Albanian personality that is somehow linked to your country's history. I personally think that you just don't tolerate the idea that your country's modern history is UNQUESTIONABLY and INDISSOLUBLY linked to the Arvanites. That's understandable..but it just doesn't change reality! Second, when will you Greek finally understand that the fact that someone contributes to or dies for your (or any) country DOES NOT MEAN he belongs to your country or ethnos? Because, according to this exquisitely idiotic logic, which reminds me of the father of the funny Greek spinster in My Big Fat Greek Wedding who even made the kimono Greek, lord Byron who fought and died in the Greek war of independence was Greek! And so should be all the philanthropists or foreign fighters who have contributed to or fought for other countries and have embraced other people's causes, for that matter. The English, Germans, Italians, Brazilians etc who fought in the Spanish Civil War were perhaps Spaniards?? What about the mercenaries, political personalities, inventors, scientists etc, contributing throughout history to nations different from their own? Tesla was American or Serbian? Why is he considered Serbian then when EVERYTHING he did was linked to and created on American soil? What nationality is Che Guevara? Cuban? Bolivian? It depends on who he fought for right? Was Marko Boçari Greek because he fought for Greece?? Who else was he supposed to fight for considering that he was part of the IMMENSE Arvanite community who made up the majority of the population of Greece of that time?? Who were the Arvanite leaders of your War of Independence supposed to fight for considering they were the (major) population of Greece (according to Turkish defters)?? The Arvanite personalities who made MAJOR contributions to the birth of the Greek states, its education system, economy and politics did it as INHABITANTS or citizens of that country, as a MINORITY COMMUNITY of that country. Simple as that! Zhapa (which means skin in Albanian) was an inhabitant of Greece and contributed to this community. That's a normal respectful bevaior, this is what every immigrant in a country would do in sign of gratitude and why not, love! Just as many Arvanites before him, also this Albanian gave his contribution to the Greek, he couldn't have done otherwise considering the delicate and extreme fragile situation of his Albanian fatherland. He can be called a Greek citizen yes, but CANNOT be denied his roots and ethnicity. Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are Americans yes, but they are ITALIAN-American (De Niro said Arbëresh in an interview, doesn't matter) and there's no way someone can deny this!! You can keep playing with the words racism to your advantage as much as you want, you've always profiteered from this, but Albanians base the national identity on blood and ethnicity (just like many other people), not culture!! You just have to accept that cause keep denying it by counterposing your personal Greek view on nationality is useless and quite self-delusional. It's just illogical and utterly stupid (not to mention chauvinistic) to deny someone's roots. The Arbëresh personality of Italy who made lots of contributions to the Italian state were Italians?? Yes but do Italians deny Antonio Gramsci's, Francesco Crispi's etc origins? Or did they deny their own roots? No they don't and no they didn't, only you Greeks deny other people's origins and you're very aware of the why, I'm afraid!!! Etimo ( talk) 17:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
If someone has something (serious) to say about Zappas being related with Albania, suppose he should initiated a discussion here. Since he is irrelevant with Albania, I've removed the bot-added wpsq. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Above, I had entered sources that the whole village of Labove at the time of Zhapa, Rapper, p.9 was Albanian. I interrupted the talk earlier because a user who called Pandeli Sotiri a Greek and insulted me continuously interrupted a discussion. Now that user has a ban on the Balkans. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Please stop misusing Rapper, he says NOTHING about him being Albanian. Also about Clayer you have been instructed by Fut. that he does NOT say that (see Greek-Albanian cooperation board). You don't believe that Pristina&Islami tow stalinist period Albanian sources re rs right? Alexikoua ( talk) 19:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
the usual...zappas came from an albanianspeaking village (but i dont know if his family were vlach or greek speaking) but he clearly wasn't 'albanian' 87.202.35.131 ( talk) 04:19, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Evangelos Zappas → Evangelis Zappas
Evangelis was the exact name he used (it's also the preferred name form of Evangelos in Epirus). This is obvious in various inscriptions: in his statue in front of Zappeion and his crypt (and also according to his testament) . Alexikoua ( talk) 20:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I can foresee that this source will be denied because it would not qualify as a reliable source
[18], however it has links to many works on Vangjel Zhapa from Vangjel Meksi, Qirjako Hila, Thanas Hoda, Thanas Meksi, Ilir Kontini, Agron Alibali, Fedhon Meksi, Filip Boga, Koço Toti, Dhimo Mali, Fejzi Hoxha, and Foto Toti. It also links how
Vangjel Meksi was for full 5 years his master of popular medicine when he went to Janina (from when he was 13 years old until he became 18). He learned from Meksi the folk physician profession. In addition it contains valuable info on the lawsuit for his $800M wealth left in Istanbul, which was eventually pocketed by the Greek government in 1960 through the
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople--
Sulmues (
talk)
04:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Fedhon! A classical Albanian name!
Sulmues, please realise that Mussolini and Hoxha period is over. Half of the people you display above are national Greeks. --
Euzen (
talk)
18:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello, was Zappas Greek or Vlach? Because somewhere is that he was Vlach, so i wonder to know it, because i know that his village is not in vlachophone part of Albania. Thanks.--
213.151.217.149 (
talk)
10:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Btw, what is that funny touristic "reference" (no 2) about "Greek-Romanian"? Needs correction to "Greek Vlach".-- Euzen ( talk) 17:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Numerous publications incorrectly claim that an event held in 1888 (that was neither sponsored by Evangelis Zappas or formally organised by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870 and 1875 Olympic Games) was one of the Olympic Games sponsored by Zappas. The 1888 event was held at a gymnasium that was built from the Zappas legacy. The event was organised by an individual and the event did not resemble Olympic Games in any way, shape or form. All those who categorise the 1888 event as an Olympic event are very much mistaken.
Cut and paste from Wikipedia: "After an extended period of litigation between the Greek government and a group of Zappas' relatives over Zappas' bequests, Konstantinos Zappas secured the execution of Zappas' will. The Greek government used Zappas' money to complete the Gymnasterion, a central gym, in 1878, and to continue the work on the Zappeion exhibition center, which had begun in 1873 and was frequently interrupted ... As in 1875, Fokianos took charge of the sporting events (but did so independently of the earlier Olympic Committee), which were postponed up till April 30, 1889. These Games were not co-ordinated by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870, and 1875 Zappas Games, but by Fokianos alone. Thirty athletes competed in a variety of disciplines including discus, pole long leap (over a ditch), weightlifting, mast climbing, and rope climbing among others. All participants were clad alike.[2]
In 1890, a royal decree, signed by Crown Prince Constantine and the foreign minister Stephanos Dragoumis, announced that the Olympiad would be reinstated, at four-year intervals, from 1888. The next Olympics were officially planned for 1892, but did not take place due to the Greek government's claim of lack of funding.[23] In the event, the Panathenaic stadium would be used to stage the Olympic Games in 1896, the first to be held under the auspices of the International Olympic Committee.[2]" Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 02:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I am going to revert to my last version. The content is sourced, and I don't think the edits are that controversial! Majuru ( talk) 22:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
These: [1] [2] [3] tell the truth. Rolandi+ ( talk) 12:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Finally,Evangelis Zappas,a Vlach by descent,took the idea and ran with it,paving the way for the modern Olympics.
Some of the biggest national benefactors and personalities of the Greek history belong to Vlach families, like Pavlos Melas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas, Stefanos and Ion.
Kolletes and Spyridon Lampros were Vlachs.So were the great national benefactors George Averoff,Nicolaos Stournares,Tositsas,Sinas,Evangelos and Konstantions Zappas...
The above sources would normally be good additions to the article if they weren't general survey sources that briefly mention Evangelos Zappas and the formation of the modern Olympics. Kaphetzopoulos, for example, focuses on the history of Northern Epirus and only lists the names of "Vlachs" (i.e., Aromanian-speaking Greeks) who contributed to Greece including Evangelos Zappas (Kaphetzopoulos, however, provides no details about the modern Olympics or even about Zappas's historic role in their development). As for Thomopoulos and Smerlas, they only provide a summary of Greek history with no references to primary or even secondary sources (no way to confirm where they're getting their information from). I don't really mind including an Aromanian origin for Zappas, but such an origin is technically fringe since mainstream scholars who've studied the modern Olympics (i.e., Brownell, Decker, Gerlach, Hill, Landry, Landry, Yerlès, etc.) have already determined that Evangelos Zappas was a Greek. Umpire Empire ( talk) 20:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Vlachs are not Aromanian-speaking Greeks.Don't believe every lie you hear in the Greek media.Also don't delete the Vlach origin anymore.Who said that mainstream scholars claims he was greek?
Rolandi+ (
talk)
08:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: Can you prove that the Aromanian origin is fringe? If not stop deleting it. Rolandi+ ( talk) 08:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: You are more ignorant that I expected.Wikipedia's rules makes it clear that one theory will be included if it isn't proved it is fringe.So stop and this is the last time I say this to you.There are reliable sources for the Aromanian origin and it will be added. Rolandi+ ( talk) 14:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Rolandi+: Calling me "ignorant" is proof that you can't demonstrate that Zappas's Aromanian origin is the consensus among mainstream/specialist scholars (also, Zappas being Aromanian isn't even a theory since there are no biographical facts to support Zappas's supposed Aromanian origin). The sources you claim are reliable are in fact weak and unreliable when compared to the serious scholars already in the entry who have specifically studied Zappas and the modern Olympics. Ultimately, your consistent inability to comprehend why your sources are weak is sadly proof that you're not here to build an encyclopedia. Umpire Empire ( talk) 17:49, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Umpire Empire: Yes,you are ignorant of Wikipedia's rules.You can't delete well-sourced infos only because you believe your sources are "better" or "more reliable". Rolandi+ ( talk) 18:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes there are three sources supporting the Aromanian origin so it will be added. Rolandi+ ( talk) 07:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Hormova, is to the west of Lunxheri. De Rapper does not include Hormova as being in Lunxheri. You where saying in the above comments that those events occurred in Lunxheri. De Rapper gives a list of Lunxheri villages. The source needs to encompass one or all of them not villages of the Kurvelesh area like Hormova and Kardhiq. Resnjari ( talk) 22:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
The mountian of biography just says he was a Greek. They of course don't focus on Lunxheri and the dynamics as their research is about the Olympics etc. De Rapper has done a holistic wide ranging study of the region and hence those figures come into focus as well (that article by De Rapper is from the book The new Albanian migration and in the book De Rapper's article has extensive footnotes missing from that pdf version if you want to check it out. Has Kretsi' article on Mursi too.). As for "the above quote you provided doesn't state that Liountzi was ethnically pure Albanian." no it does not. Nonetheless nor does it mean that Lunxheri was Greek either. But what De Rapper does point to unequivocally is that Lunxheri from the early nineteenth century, from Western government reports and from Western travellers who went to the area identified Lunxheri as a Albanian speaking area. And apart from a change in language from Greek speaking Pogoni, they noticed a change in customs and that there was a kind of border of sorts in the area. So though there is nothing about Albanian identity, but there is nothing about Greek identity either. What is certain is there was a difference between different linguistic groups to a certain extent which start to change later in the nineteenth century when identity becomes a contested ground. As for "Greek origin doesn't mean self-declaration." yet De Rapper points to that in his article. When Lunxhots went abroad they identified with Greek identity and names Zappas in that category. He also states that those that stayed behind in Lunxheri, it is difficult to ascertain what they thought of themselves during that time. "The only fact about Zappas is that he rejected any connection with an Albanian national identity. That's reasonable because he belonged to a diferrent ethnic background." Sorry but saying "that's reasonable" is just wp:OR. De Rapper does not state this. All sources just state that Zappas was Greek without giving context. De Rapper is inline with this with the only addition of giving the context of what was going with individuals like Zappas from Lunxheri, when they migrated. Resnjari ( talk) 01:42, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
It was a process. Those who migrated outside of the region identified as Greek, those that remained in the region it was difficult to ascertain, as Greek has multiple meanings. De Rapper regarding the locals outlines that Lunxhots used it in a religious sense, as for its ethnic component that is more difficult to ascertain except those who migrated to foreign places like Zappas. What is constant and beyond doubt is that the people lived in an area is identified as Albanian speaking. As for "I'm glad you admit that the region he lived was not a "pure Albanian region". all i said was that it is difficult to attribute identities on the area as outlined by De Rapper but that the region was consistently identified as Albanian speaking, back in the early 19th century and even now and that part is fact. That's all, as for identity that is a whole different matter. Church, schools, religion, nationalism all played their role in shaping conflicts and identity contests in the area as outlined by De Rapper. Resnjari ( talk) 12:43, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
p.8."The spread of Greek schools and religion also means that many school teachers and priests were of Greek background, coming either from Dropull and Pogon or from Greece."
Regarding Labovë i will quote Winnifrith, who cites Clarke, a British scholar who was there in the early interwar period when he was leaving from the Pogoni villages into Lunxhëri. Labove is the first of the Lunxhëri villages when crossing from Pogoni (since you have the book you can check it). Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Duckworth. p. 165. "On 24 January Clarke left for Labovë. He noted that then as now he was crossing a linguistic border from an area where Greek is spoken to one where it was merely understood. But he also said that there was little difference between the architecture of Labovë and of the villages he previously visited, and that both in Labovë and farther north at Saraganishtë there was a certain amount of pro-Greek feeling."
Hammond who was also there during the interwar period, list in full all the Greek villages of Albanian Pogoni and Labovë does not figure in any of them. Hammond, Nicholas (1967). Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas. Clarendon Press. states: p.27. "The present distribution of the Albanian-speaking villages bears little relation to the frontier which was drawn between Greece and Albania after the First World War. In Map 2 I have shown most of the Greek speaking villages in Albanian Epirus and some of the Albanian-speaking villages in Greek Epirus. The map is based on observations made by Clarke and myself during our travels between 1922 and 1939."; p.28-29. In Llunxherië the villages are more compact but smaller, Shtegopul and Saraginishtë, for instance, having only fifty houses each; the people of Llunxherië are all Albanian Orthodox Christians, except those of Erind, who are partly Christian and Mohammedan, and the men, but not the women, know some Greek. Zagorië has the same characteristics, its ten villages extending from Doshnicë to Shepr; the group is endogamous and does not marry with the people of Llunxherië. Pogoni, or Paleo-Pogoni as some people call it, consists of seven Greek-speaking villages near.y 3,000 ft. above sea-level (Poliçan, Skorë, Hlomo, Sopik, Mavrojer, Çatistë, and, on the Greek side of the frontier, Drimadhes), the biggest, Poliçan, has a population of 2,500 persons and Sopik has 300 houses. The Pogoniates normally marry only within their group, but occasionally a bride may be taken from Zagorië and then she is taught Greek."
Also in that paragraph that you cite from Clayer, the whole thing says:
"In 1929, when the government was developing a project to open a boarding school for Greek-speaking children in Labovë (in the region of Rrezë). northeast of Gjirokastër), Branko Merxhani, a contributor In the local newspaper hut also a deputy school inspector, wrote in a report for the Minister that this idea had not been well received by the local Albanian Christians from Rrezë, Zagori and Lunxhëri and that it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school. The inspector, however, intervened against what he considered an attempt by Branko Merxhani to interfere in the Greek-speaking teaching and, as a matter of fact, the project was never realised."
Apart from Clayer mixing up the regions where Labovë is (Rrezë is the area of the Vjosa valley with its centre Përmet) she is in line with De Rapper, Winnifrith's citation of Clarke and Hammond. Note that Clayer writes Greek-speaking children and the period of time is identified as the interwar one. Hammond and Clarke who by no means can be called Albanian sympathizers clearly noted they where crossing a linguistic boundary and that customs also differed in the area. Women knew no Greek, the men knew some Greek, and Clayer cites the matter of schools and Greek education. She also interestingly cites Merxhani noting in his report that the locals don't at all seem to be pleased with the Albanian government initiative to have that Greek school around (So much for "Albanisation"). One also does not know if the Greek school was for Greek kids from neighbouring villages of Pogoni as Labovë is the last Lunxheri village before entering Pogoni villages (see any map out there). I say this because she then follows on in the next sentence by saying that "it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school." So either some kind of language shift was occurring under the Albanian government's nose or the Albanian government itself was promoting Greek education for children in Albanian speaking villages whose mothers knew no Greek and fathers had passive knowledge of Greek. Clayer mixed things up in the paragraph. But lets say she didn't, the issue of education still aligns as those "Greek speaking children" were exposed to Greek in the school system as De Rapper states. One wonders how these kids where communicating with their parents, especially their mothers who knew no Greek ! Yes there was pro-Greek felling and that was part of the larger tug of war regarding identities by the Lunxhots which De Rapper also outlines. Interestingly Hammond too like Green cites the taking of Albanian brides by Greek speaking Pogoni. Resnjari ( talk) 00:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Guy, Nicola C. "Linguistic boundaries and geopolitical interests: the Albanian boundary commissions, 1878–1926." Journal of Historical Geography 34.3 (2008): 457-458.
The southern commission began its work at Monastir, on 4 October 1913. Obstacles soon materialized: in fifty-eight days the commissioners visited only six villages and interviewed fourteen people. The Greek government was repeatedly accused of attempting to influence decision-making with the use of extensive propaganda and subversive initiatives. The commission reported a so-called ‘Sacred Legion’ which cried ‘union or death’ at every opportunity, and the presence of irregular troops that were used to ensure that all doors of Christian homes remained closed to conceal the Albanian-speaking women inside, or so it was believed. Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Doughty-Wylie, the British representative and commission chairman, reported that houses were painted in the Greek colours of blue and white, and that the church bells rang whenever the commission arrived at a town or village. He believed that this was meant to reinforce the Christian (Orthodox) and thus supposedly Greek nature of the town. He wrote that the commissioners were always greeted either by a hostile crowd, clamouring for union with Greece, or by school children speaking Greek and waving Greek flags.
The inference was that the ‘Greeks’ were orchestrating these welcome parties. The suspicion of the commissioners seemed verified on one visit, when a group of children appeared to speak Greek. However, when the senior Austrian delegate, Bilinski, threw down a handful of coins, they all started squabbling in Albanian. The commissioners appear to have soon encountered serious problems in using language as the sole criterion to determine ethnography and hence establishment of an international boundary. Many people in the region were bilingual or trilingual, and spoke Albanian in their homes (mother tongue), but Greek for business or general communication outside the home (lingua franca), whilst Turkish was the official language, and some also spoke Vlach or a Slavonic dialect. This bi-or multi-lingualism is understandable given that there was no separate Albanian Orthodox Church (until 1923), no agreed written language until the Monastir Alphabet Congress (1908), and that the teaching of Albanian had only recently been allowed in schools. Additionally, the commissioners discovered that within the family, the younger generation, particularly male members, commonly spoke Greek. The commissioners surmised that this phenomenon was a result of economic necessity: Greek was the language of trade, whereas Albanian had no wide commercial usage. On the other hand, the older generation, especially women, generally spoke Albanian.
That is what Nicola Guy, a peer reviewed scholar in her article on the boundary commission write regarding Albanian speakers. This is in line the De Rapper and Skoulidas about Orthodox Albanian speakers with the older generations being monlignual and the younger ones due to schools and so forth becoming Greek. Clarke noted in Labove, the women were monolignual Albanian speakers. I have the article if you want. Send me a message if you want me to email it to you. Resnjari ( talk) 09:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Could an admin please put this article under protection? Thanks. Othon I ( talk) 13:32, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Khirurg, stop with your childish reverts. You've continously been doing ridiculous changes to the article (god forbid if Zappas is referred to as an Aromanian before as a Greek in a sentence). You like it or not, there are sources supporting Aromanian ancestry for Zappas. Saying he's an ethnic Greek, and only an ethnic Greek, is POV. By the way, lazy edit summaries such as "rv per sources" seem bad faith to me. I don't think I need to explain why. Super Ψ Dro 09:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? Super Ψ Dro 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of Aromanian ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: Usha Uthup, Roger Clinch, Adam Simac, Juan Padilla (second baseman) and Martín Caballero. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.
In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. Super Ψ Dro 10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greekand numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans- I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. Khirurg ( talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
"was a Greek patriot"doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to Greeks would indicate that Zappas was ethnic Greek, which would violate NPOV. Zappas's ethnicity is not relevant to their notability, and hence should be omitted per MOS:ETHNICITY. ( Summoned by bot) Politrukki ( talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)