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to follow the logic of various arguements about the trans-continental status of various countries, how do we measure Istanbul? Is the european part bigger than moscow or london? Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 02:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Even using some of the suggested link above give a variation of c. 4 million people in the population of london. Not exactly a very precise comparison! Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 06:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
the UK does not, oddly perhaps, keep a list of who has left the country, so even if evryone was documented entering (and they are not) it would be difficult to know how many returned overseas, and how many stayed on in an unofficial capacity. As a major cosmopolitan city, and a good source of employment, a lot of migrants to the country live in and around London. So you see the problem.
So it is hard to say how big london is, let alone compare it with moscow, which no doubt has some similar and some differeing problems when trying to define its size.
The
Slough page has a link on it to a TV documentary describing the problems with UK popultaion estimates.
And every time a minister makes a statement in the Parliament here about population, immigration, etc., it seems that statement has to be updated to allow for something not counted, or the vagaries of the estimates. Not very well organised for a so-called "developed" country, is it!
Perhaps best to include several cities as the largest (one source above list Istanbul, if the asian bit counts) and put in copious footnotes! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk •
contribs)
06:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Remember that Green belt round London. And the point about the population stats is they are all guesses based on partial data - even the official one from the UK. The register of births, which should contain everyone born in the UK, is not systematically cross referenced to the register of deaths. This has been a method of getting false passports for years. It has been tightened up, but it is neither completely, or systematically checked. The number of illegral immigrants in the UK has been estimated to be 500,000, but that figure could be out by a good few hundred thousand either way, and that is just the official estimates. No-one knows (officially) how many new-EU citizens (e.g. Poles, Czechs, etc) live and work in London - that's an official estimate as well - the UK counted many of them on the way in, but has no estimate for how many subsequently left the country. And there were certainly massive population flows post EU enlargement. Britain, after all, had one of the healthiest economies in the EU, so it is only natural that it would attract a large number of migrants. I suggest you watch that documentary to get a feel of the problem!
On the subject of city definition, there seems to be little or no agreement about what popultion density a city should have. One table shows Moscow larger than london, but at a lower population density. Perhaps city size should be adjusted for popultion density to reduce the differences in what counts as a suburb.
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk)
06:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Back to how the measurement is made. This organisation [1]has tried to remove the bias from the politically created gap (greenbelt) at the edge of London. they have a figure of 13,945,000 for London in 2001! That is already in front of Istanbul (add on population growth in the last 7 years, and suddenly you have a figure similar or greater than Moscow!). On another track, the figures quoted on Wikipedia for Metro area size are from "World Gazeteer". Anyone know what this is? Google didn't come up with much. The World Gazeteer website didn't seem to say anything about ownership (certainly not that I found - maybe i'm just daft!). So who produces it? A government? a University? an organisation/NGO? an Individual with a burning desire and a bit of time? What is the quality of their data? Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 10:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
That's what I think.
If my doubts are confirmed, then the Metro area listing for size is, at best, unreliable. So it would appear to contribute nothing to the biggest city (Moscow/Istanbul/London/Other) debate
What does everyone else think
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk •
contribs)
10:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
As a possible way forward, perhaps I can repeat my previous comment:
Perhaps best to include several cities as the largest (one source above list Istanbul, if the asian bit counts) and put in copious footnotes!
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk)
10:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, Hey , Hey. Here is a list [2] that says London is bigger than Moscow or Istanbul. Told you so. Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 23:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, "hey, hey, hey" is that site some sort of official document that mandates us to model the entire list over it? Wikipedia should not be merely a copy of something.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 23:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 16:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I was just browsing around and noticed that Kazakhstan is listed in Europe and Asia pages. I understand that Kazakhstan is on both Continents, but why was it chosen to be this way and by who, and when? Can someone elaborate on this. -- Japreja ( talk) 03:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"Why was it chosen to be this way"? Well, I guess because the country is on both continents, as you have already figured. Who implemented this when? I can't answer you , but you can look that up yourself using the article history. Good luck! Tomeasy T C 09:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The current map of Europe is rather annoying. The problem with it is that you can not print it because the links aren't saved. It would be cool if there was a High-Res map of Europe that allowed you to print stuff from it. Not sure how to create a new topic though. It would be cool if somebody could make another high res map that you could print. 161.97.199.36 ( talk) 21:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo is NOT a state. it is an autonomous region of Serbia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.147.174 ( talk) 14:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, the majority of the world agrees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.168.205 ( talk) 17:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Also the UN and the internacional laws agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.239.217.32 ( talk) 02:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's agree that this is a delicate question and it need thorough attention to solve it. Actually, it is part of the most ardently discussed topics on wikipedia: how do we appreciate independence of countries when disputed. Most apparent are locator maps and topical lists as the one here. Those of you who are interested to design a general guideline for these cases without having recent instances in mind (or on agenda) should feel invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Locator maps and de facto independence. There and here we should try to come up with an objective rule that then defines naturally which countries fall into the list and which ones do not. Let's leave behind, for the time being, the concrete countries and discuss on the basis of objective criteria.
I will give it a first shot; here's my proposition:
Include all countries on the list that are (i) de facto sovereign and (ii) recognized by at least one universally recognized state.
Tomeasy
T
C
17:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The question is do you recognize only UN-recognized states, or any "state" that has de facto control over its own territory, with its own legislature etc. ? Kosovo relaly is not more a state than Abkhazia or South Ossetia or North Cyprus or Nagorno-Karabakh. Then we can get into issues like Transnistria, or Mount Athos. It would be best if only states that are internationally-recognized UN members be included. Otherwise this discussion will still be going on ages from now, and may very well turn nasty. 41.245.165.40 ( talk) 08:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
How can you state that the majority of the European population recognizes Kosovo? Also, Switzerland was recognized by its previous ruler(Austria) when it declared independence. That is why Crotia and Slovenia are states, because the previous regime recognized them. Under UN (them again) law all states' territorial boundaries as of the formation of the UN are indivisible, unless the state themselves recognizes the new boundaries. It doesn't matter who recognizes Kosovo, unless Belgrade recognizes an independent nation called "Kosovo", it is part of Serbia. Period. Likewise, using the "this is about Europe" argument falls flat. Israel is in the Middle East, but the absolute majority of Middle Eastern governments and people do no recognize it. So should we remove that from that section. The facts are these:
1)Under UN law, Kosovo is part of Serbia.
2)The overwhelming majority of governments of universally recognized sovereign states do not recognize Kosovo as a state, but as part of Serbia.
3)You can not possibly claim to know what the majority population of Europe feels or thinks.
4)Unless Serbia recognized Kosovo as an independent state, Kosovo's "independence" is in vi9olation of just about every international law and agreement.
5)Including Kosovo in a list of European countries is factually inaccurate.
41.245.139.25 ( talk) 12:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, as you obviously know, but are likely just being trollish now, the Vienna regime which had had control of Switzerland recognized it as a state, and thus Switzerland became an official country. The Vienna state was obviously not the exact same thing as the modern state of Austria, but that is irrelevant. Likewise I used the Israel example and now you are trying to use it to state your rather feeble point? All you have done so far is make outrageous claims. I have stated my point(which various other people here agree with, read discussion history) that an exact specification needs to be made when listing countries as to what constitutes a country. The proposed designation is a UN member state. While that is not perfect it does remove back-and-forth edit warring and POVing. Likewise at least a majority recognition could be used instead. Kosovo is not a UN member state, and the overwhelming majority of universally-recognized states do not recognize any country called the "republic of Kosovo". Your reason for its inclusion seems to be "because I say so". If that is the case then why not also include North Cyprus, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Chechneya? Apart from bluster, could you set out what guidelines you would propose for what should be included, what you feel the valid criteria should be etc? And please do not just cut-and-paste or echo back what I have just said. 41.245.155.32 ( talk) 12:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo is not a member of international organizations like the UN, IMF, the World Bank, the Olympic organization, FIFA, I mean you name it. It is not a member of the UN not because like Switzerland they choose not to be because of their neutrality but because they do not have sufficient support to become a member. A new resolution of the UN Security Council is needed to grant independence to Kosovo. Until then it is formally according to resolution 1244 of the UN Security Council a part of Serbia. Tomeasy, your suggestion of: Include all countries on the list that are (i) de facto sovereign and (ii) recognized by at least one universally recognized state. is not adequate. For example, Bosnia is not de facto sovereign because the final decision on issues there is made by the High Representative and EU special representative. Northern Cyprus is de facto more sovereign than Bosnia but does that mean that Bosnia should be removed from the map because it does not fit one of the two criteria? Kosovo is also under similar international authority and furthermore its political independence has not been formalized within any international organizations. If you claim that this is a European issue and that most EU countries have recognized Kosovo you are right but on the other hand Kosovo is neither a member of the Council of Europe nor of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe). Why is that do you think? You can not form a set of criteria for determining what a country is because each individual case is different. In the case of Kosovo I propose that it be drawn into the map once the UN Security Council adopts a new resolution stating its independence. Don't worry, you probably won't have to wait more than two years anyway, but putting it on the map now makes Wikipedia a bit superficial. Tripio Tripio ( talk) 13:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
"I am looking for an academic discussion on this, with a simple clear cut guideline." The academic problem is that you have two opposing and at times contradicting concepts of international law (which is a living organism that is not perfect)which are the guarantee of sovereignty and territorial integrity of countries (in this case Serbia's argument), and the rights of people to self-determination (Kosovo Albanians argument). The problem in the case of Kosovo is that regardless if it goes one way or the other one of the two principles will be violated and one side will be damaged. If there are no "simple clear cut" guidelines for determining the sovereignty of a territory in international politics, how can you expect them to be defined on Wikipedia? The push to recognize Kosovo with a UN Security Council resolution is not my idea. It is the preferred mechanism of countries that already have recognized the independence of Kosovo. The International Court of Justice is to determine the legality of the unilateral declaration of independence by the ruling majority in Kosovo. This court will come to a verdict taking into account International Law, the situation on the ground, history of the region, etc. Predictions are that the verdict will be reached by this time next year. Lets see what the wise gray people in the court will conclude. The decision of this court is not binding, and each individual country will decide weather to respect their decision or not which means that it will have no practical effect (the USA, UK, France, will certainly not disgrace themselves by changing their position on the matter). The circumstances there today are a product of violence that came from both sides. To draw Kosovo into the map today is a presumption and a political opinion but far from a definite (however likely it may be) reality. It is interesting that you have already drawn Kosovo into the map while you are still searching for "a simple clear cut guideline". I am very interested to hear according to which guidelines have you decided to do so? Tripio Tripio ( talk) 13:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no I am not the IP 41... "What are you talking about? I did not draw it in any map. I do not even know which map you mean." Take it easy man, no need to be aggressive, the map which is at the top of the page, the political map of Europe (below the heading "this page is disputed..."), take a look. "My rationale would be to reflect all viewpoints, if there are different viewpoints and abandon discussions as to which viewpoint is more justified." Sounds good to me, but if I understand your point correctly, then the page will have to contain two maps of Europe. Tripio ( talk) 13:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I saw that you answered to each and every comment on this page, not only in the Kosovo topic, so I assumed that you are a moderator of this page and therefore that you drew or imported the maps. I extend my sincerest apologies because I see that you were very disturbed by my allegation. A dashed border is fine i suppose. It reflects the absurdity of the situation perfectly. Tripio ( talk) 14:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. But as it stands now, it makes it look as though Kosovo is in fact a fully recognized nation state, whereas no mention of Abkhazia et al exists. Whoever has added the present map is clearly going on POV. Either Kosovo should be removed entirely, or South Ossetia, Abkhazia, North Cyprus and Nagorno-Karabakh be added. 41.245.164.13 ( talk) 08:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
But why is Kosovo listed as being a European state, and included on the map, when none of the others even have dotted lines? This is POV and factually wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.187.61 ( talk) 11:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I find discussion about Kosovo stupid, Kosovo lives out Serbian law and Serbian reality, has it's own constitution, population, ethnic distribution and has customs with Serbia...So Kosovo is de facto divised and now that has declared it's indipendence this thing is stronger. I don't think that Kosovo should be compared to South Ossetia, Abkhzia, Nagorno Karabakh...etc, Maybe Kosovo shouldn't be listed as an independent country but with it's own borders and not inside the Administrative system of Serbia in the map, Kosovo is more simillar to Taiwan in my opinion, that doesn't figure as an independent state but it doesn't figure as part of China either and has it's own government and Administrative system...So shortly my opinion is that Kosovo should be on the map but not in the list of indipendent countries...
The "Europe according to the EU" map shows Gibraltar as "other European" as opposed to European Union. Gibraltar joined the European Union alongside the United Kingdom of which Gibraltar is a territory. Could someone please correct this. -- SJ3000 ( talk) 19:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Politically, maybe as a small part of Turkey is found in Europe so one can argue that the entire country should be treated as a European one. Geographically, no except for that little area found in Europe. The Asian part of Turkey IMO is not a part of Europe as it is not located within the European continent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.69.75 ( talk) 21:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
This article needs a big, fat POV-disputed tag at the top. Are the authors not aware that there is no consensus as to what Europe is? Why do they just make the assumption that it is X, when the entire article could be rewritten from the point of view that Europe is Y or even Z? Are we talking about Europe culturally? Historically? Linguistically? Demographically? Religiously? Geographically?-- Phalangst ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes and no. Only a tiny portion of Northern Turkey is officialy considered a part of Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.33.174.133 ( talk) 16:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
By the same logic that describes Turkey as part of Europe, then France is a Pacific nation (it has some small islands in the Pacific Ocean) and Britain is a South Atlantic country due to the Falkland Islands and South Georgia. In fact, the real claim that Turkey has to be European is based not in common sense but in political advantage and prestige. - Dughall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.134.103 ( talk) 01:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Georgia, Armenia (and Azerbaijan) is regarded by many people as European countries, and with this consideration, why should not Turkey be counted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.116.17 ( talk) 02:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Turkey's asian part is not in the "middle east" its the "near east".Just a clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.69.140.118 ( talk) 12:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Of course Turkey is not in Europe. As everybody knows Europe goes from the Atlantic to the Urals. Only a tiny proportion of Turkey is in Europe, and Turkey has absolutely nothing in common with Europe. So no. Turkey is not in Europe. On the other hand, Georgia and Armenia are in Europe. Every European knows that. Even Russia is in Europe because most of its people live in Europe (West of the Urals), and they share a common history and culture with Europe. Something that Turkey does not. 2 January 2009 by Tamoka —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamoka ( talk)
"European nations played a predominant role in global affairs from the 16th century onwards, especially after the beginning of Colonialism. By the 17th and 18th centuries, European nations controlled most of Africa, the Americas, and large portions of Asia." - This is utter nonsense. European 'predominance' was no where near global in the 16th century, and it is farcical to say that by the 17th and 18th centuries European nations controlled most of Africa, or Asia. Even the North American mainland hadn't been properly explored by this point. It wasn't until the late 19th century even that Europeans were able to penetrate into Africa. There is a huge lack of research behind the claims above and quite frankly it should be scrapped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.232.135 ( talk) 14:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Source? 41.245.177.213 ( talk) 16:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Source: D.H.Fieldhouse "Economics and Empire 1830-1914" (New York: Cornell Uni Press) page3 - In 1800 only 34% of the earth's surface had any kind of european presence. A figure which by 1914 rose to 84%. It was quite simply impossible for Europeans to have any kind of control in Africa before the end of the nineteenth century. Not only did Europeans require the extraordinary technological gap which developed with industrialisation and allowed weapons such as the maxim machine gun, but without the development of Quinine and other medicinal advances Europeans died in their droves from African diseases. Hence the term 'white man's grave'. It is quite legitimate to claim that by the late nineteenth and early 20th centuries European empires spanned the globe and controlled vast amounts of human and material resources, but this is simply not the case before the 1850s. And especially not in Africa. Infact if you follow the link that the above-cited text takes you to under "controlled most of Africa" it tells you straight away that the most significant phase of the process is the Partition of Africa itself, which doesn't happen until the 1880s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 02:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
So a quote from one obscure book is a reliable source? Dr Rgne ( talk) 14:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Why not use the "cooler" globe.-view map? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.224.134 ( talk) 20:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there everybody, my name is Dave and I live in Dublin. On the Europe page in wiki it does not give the Republic of Ireland it's full title and only says 'Ireland'. It would be great if an admin could change the titles that say Ireland to the ROI. The title Ireland refers to the whole isle of Ireland where as the Europe page is just talking about the Republic. I am proud of my wee country, it's history and culture, and therefore I like to see it called the right name.
Thanks Dave
You may but may I point out that the ROI's officel name is actualy just Ireland probably because until 1998 The ROI claimed Northern Ireland. just thougth you aught to know. Lemonade100 ( talk) 17:44, 13 November 2008 (GMT)
Everyone agrees with me I suppose that 15 Degrees Fahrenheit does not convert into 8 degrees Celsius. The correct conversion would be -9.44 degrees Celsius. But I would rather forgo that statistic as the source is clearly a little flawed. Instead I would recommend removing that statistic and inform www.worldbook.com that they have made a mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixwisser123 ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Is spoken by over 1.5 million and is not represented on the linguistic map (Image:Simplified Languages of Europe map.svg), unlike Scottish Gaelic, which only has a speaking population of some >60,000 in Scotland. It is also a recognized "regional or minority language" under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Yi ken, aye? ; ) Donnchadh Rus ( talk) 16:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Contrary to several images on this page, the Isle of Man is not a member of the European Union. It is a crown dependency of Queen Elizabeth II who holds the Lordship separately and equally from that of the United Kingdom's, and thus does not share EU membership along with the UK in the same fashion as Gibraltar.
See the following PDF for some detail: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ebusiness/advantages/protocol3.pdf
I'm on a roll today... Donnchadh Rus ( talk) 16:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I object to the constant attempts to suggest that Asia Minor is part of Europe. For example in File:Europe, EU.png, it is perfectly unclear why only the European parts of Russia are highlighted, but both the European and the Asian parts of Turkey. This is inconsistent. Similarly, File:Europe's population growth - CIA 2008.jpg shows only the European part of Russia, while highlighting the Asian parts of Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Worse, the image suggests that this is what the CIA does, while the CIA factbook is simply the source of the numbers used to create the map. Yet again, File:Europe biogeography countries.svg does the same thing: Russia and Kazakhstan are treated as transcontinental, but Turkey isn't. The UN subregions map, File:Location-Europe-UNsubregions, Kosovo as part of Serbia.png does it properly, except for the weird implication that Armenia is a transcontinental country with 100% of its territory in Asia, but that's probably not a bad description of the situation. I suggest the offending images should either be corrected or removed. -- dab (𒁳) 11:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I took the list of countries at the end of the article, together with their area, population and density. I copied them onto an Excel table and added up the numbers.
The totals came out very different, as follows:
- Area - Article: 10,180,000 - Sum: 26,658,778
- Population - Article: 731,000,000 - Sum: 839,929,923
- Density - Article: 70 - Dividing the two "Article" numbers: 71,8 - Dividing the two "Sum" numbers: 31,5
These are very different results!
Am I doing something wrong? please enlighten me.
Regards,
loboarte loboarte@ig.com.br
Loboarte ( talk) 22:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
to follow the logic of various arguements about the trans-continental status of various countries, how do we measure Istanbul? Is the european part bigger than moscow or london? Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 02:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Even using some of the suggested link above give a variation of c. 4 million people in the population of london. Not exactly a very precise comparison! Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 06:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
the UK does not, oddly perhaps, keep a list of who has left the country, so even if evryone was documented entering (and they are not) it would be difficult to know how many returned overseas, and how many stayed on in an unofficial capacity. As a major cosmopolitan city, and a good source of employment, a lot of migrants to the country live in and around London. So you see the problem.
So it is hard to say how big london is, let alone compare it with moscow, which no doubt has some similar and some differeing problems when trying to define its size.
The
Slough page has a link on it to a TV documentary describing the problems with UK popultaion estimates.
And every time a minister makes a statement in the Parliament here about population, immigration, etc., it seems that statement has to be updated to allow for something not counted, or the vagaries of the estimates. Not very well organised for a so-called "developed" country, is it!
Perhaps best to include several cities as the largest (one source above list Istanbul, if the asian bit counts) and put in copious footnotes! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk •
contribs)
06:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Remember that Green belt round London. And the point about the population stats is they are all guesses based on partial data - even the official one from the UK. The register of births, which should contain everyone born in the UK, is not systematically cross referenced to the register of deaths. This has been a method of getting false passports for years. It has been tightened up, but it is neither completely, or systematically checked. The number of illegral immigrants in the UK has been estimated to be 500,000, but that figure could be out by a good few hundred thousand either way, and that is just the official estimates. No-one knows (officially) how many new-EU citizens (e.g. Poles, Czechs, etc) live and work in London - that's an official estimate as well - the UK counted many of them on the way in, but has no estimate for how many subsequently left the country. And there were certainly massive population flows post EU enlargement. Britain, after all, had one of the healthiest economies in the EU, so it is only natural that it would attract a large number of migrants. I suggest you watch that documentary to get a feel of the problem!
On the subject of city definition, there seems to be little or no agreement about what popultion density a city should have. One table shows Moscow larger than london, but at a lower population density. Perhaps city size should be adjusted for popultion density to reduce the differences in what counts as a suburb.
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk)
06:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Back to how the measurement is made. This organisation [1]has tried to remove the bias from the politically created gap (greenbelt) at the edge of London. they have a figure of 13,945,000 for London in 2001! That is already in front of Istanbul (add on population growth in the last 7 years, and suddenly you have a figure similar or greater than Moscow!). On another track, the figures quoted on Wikipedia for Metro area size are from "World Gazeteer". Anyone know what this is? Google didn't come up with much. The World Gazeteer website didn't seem to say anything about ownership (certainly not that I found - maybe i'm just daft!). So who produces it? A government? a University? an organisation/NGO? an Individual with a burning desire and a bit of time? What is the quality of their data? Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 10:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
That's what I think.
If my doubts are confirmed, then the Metro area listing for size is, at best, unreliable. So it would appear to contribute nothing to the biggest city (Moscow/Istanbul/London/Other) debate
What does everyone else think
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk •
contribs)
10:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
As a possible way forward, perhaps I can repeat my previous comment:
Perhaps best to include several cities as the largest (one source above list Istanbul, if the asian bit counts) and put in copious footnotes!
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (
talk)
10:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, Hey , Hey. Here is a list [2] that says London is bigger than Moscow or Istanbul. Told you so. Mariya Oktyabrskaya ( talk) 23:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, "hey, hey, hey" is that site some sort of official document that mandates us to model the entire list over it? Wikipedia should not be merely a copy of something.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 23:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 16:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I was just browsing around and noticed that Kazakhstan is listed in Europe and Asia pages. I understand that Kazakhstan is on both Continents, but why was it chosen to be this way and by who, and when? Can someone elaborate on this. -- Japreja ( talk) 03:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"Why was it chosen to be this way"? Well, I guess because the country is on both continents, as you have already figured. Who implemented this when? I can't answer you , but you can look that up yourself using the article history. Good luck! Tomeasy T C 09:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The current map of Europe is rather annoying. The problem with it is that you can not print it because the links aren't saved. It would be cool if there was a High-Res map of Europe that allowed you to print stuff from it. Not sure how to create a new topic though. It would be cool if somebody could make another high res map that you could print. 161.97.199.36 ( talk) 21:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo is NOT a state. it is an autonomous region of Serbia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.147.174 ( talk) 14:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, the majority of the world agrees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.168.205 ( talk) 17:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Also the UN and the internacional laws agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.239.217.32 ( talk) 02:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's agree that this is a delicate question and it need thorough attention to solve it. Actually, it is part of the most ardently discussed topics on wikipedia: how do we appreciate independence of countries when disputed. Most apparent are locator maps and topical lists as the one here. Those of you who are interested to design a general guideline for these cases without having recent instances in mind (or on agenda) should feel invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Locator maps and de facto independence. There and here we should try to come up with an objective rule that then defines naturally which countries fall into the list and which ones do not. Let's leave behind, for the time being, the concrete countries and discuss on the basis of objective criteria.
I will give it a first shot; here's my proposition:
Include all countries on the list that are (i) de facto sovereign and (ii) recognized by at least one universally recognized state.
Tomeasy
T
C
17:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The question is do you recognize only UN-recognized states, or any "state" that has de facto control over its own territory, with its own legislature etc. ? Kosovo relaly is not more a state than Abkhazia or South Ossetia or North Cyprus or Nagorno-Karabakh. Then we can get into issues like Transnistria, or Mount Athos. It would be best if only states that are internationally-recognized UN members be included. Otherwise this discussion will still be going on ages from now, and may very well turn nasty. 41.245.165.40 ( talk) 08:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
How can you state that the majority of the European population recognizes Kosovo? Also, Switzerland was recognized by its previous ruler(Austria) when it declared independence. That is why Crotia and Slovenia are states, because the previous regime recognized them. Under UN (them again) law all states' territorial boundaries as of the formation of the UN are indivisible, unless the state themselves recognizes the new boundaries. It doesn't matter who recognizes Kosovo, unless Belgrade recognizes an independent nation called "Kosovo", it is part of Serbia. Period. Likewise, using the "this is about Europe" argument falls flat. Israel is in the Middle East, but the absolute majority of Middle Eastern governments and people do no recognize it. So should we remove that from that section. The facts are these:
1)Under UN law, Kosovo is part of Serbia.
2)The overwhelming majority of governments of universally recognized sovereign states do not recognize Kosovo as a state, but as part of Serbia.
3)You can not possibly claim to know what the majority population of Europe feels or thinks.
4)Unless Serbia recognized Kosovo as an independent state, Kosovo's "independence" is in vi9olation of just about every international law and agreement.
5)Including Kosovo in a list of European countries is factually inaccurate.
41.245.139.25 ( talk) 12:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, as you obviously know, but are likely just being trollish now, the Vienna regime which had had control of Switzerland recognized it as a state, and thus Switzerland became an official country. The Vienna state was obviously not the exact same thing as the modern state of Austria, but that is irrelevant. Likewise I used the Israel example and now you are trying to use it to state your rather feeble point? All you have done so far is make outrageous claims. I have stated my point(which various other people here agree with, read discussion history) that an exact specification needs to be made when listing countries as to what constitutes a country. The proposed designation is a UN member state. While that is not perfect it does remove back-and-forth edit warring and POVing. Likewise at least a majority recognition could be used instead. Kosovo is not a UN member state, and the overwhelming majority of universally-recognized states do not recognize any country called the "republic of Kosovo". Your reason for its inclusion seems to be "because I say so". If that is the case then why not also include North Cyprus, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Chechneya? Apart from bluster, could you set out what guidelines you would propose for what should be included, what you feel the valid criteria should be etc? And please do not just cut-and-paste or echo back what I have just said. 41.245.155.32 ( talk) 12:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo is not a member of international organizations like the UN, IMF, the World Bank, the Olympic organization, FIFA, I mean you name it. It is not a member of the UN not because like Switzerland they choose not to be because of their neutrality but because they do not have sufficient support to become a member. A new resolution of the UN Security Council is needed to grant independence to Kosovo. Until then it is formally according to resolution 1244 of the UN Security Council a part of Serbia. Tomeasy, your suggestion of: Include all countries on the list that are (i) de facto sovereign and (ii) recognized by at least one universally recognized state. is not adequate. For example, Bosnia is not de facto sovereign because the final decision on issues there is made by the High Representative and EU special representative. Northern Cyprus is de facto more sovereign than Bosnia but does that mean that Bosnia should be removed from the map because it does not fit one of the two criteria? Kosovo is also under similar international authority and furthermore its political independence has not been formalized within any international organizations. If you claim that this is a European issue and that most EU countries have recognized Kosovo you are right but on the other hand Kosovo is neither a member of the Council of Europe nor of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe). Why is that do you think? You can not form a set of criteria for determining what a country is because each individual case is different. In the case of Kosovo I propose that it be drawn into the map once the UN Security Council adopts a new resolution stating its independence. Don't worry, you probably won't have to wait more than two years anyway, but putting it on the map now makes Wikipedia a bit superficial. Tripio Tripio ( talk) 13:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
"I am looking for an academic discussion on this, with a simple clear cut guideline." The academic problem is that you have two opposing and at times contradicting concepts of international law (which is a living organism that is not perfect)which are the guarantee of sovereignty and territorial integrity of countries (in this case Serbia's argument), and the rights of people to self-determination (Kosovo Albanians argument). The problem in the case of Kosovo is that regardless if it goes one way or the other one of the two principles will be violated and one side will be damaged. If there are no "simple clear cut" guidelines for determining the sovereignty of a territory in international politics, how can you expect them to be defined on Wikipedia? The push to recognize Kosovo with a UN Security Council resolution is not my idea. It is the preferred mechanism of countries that already have recognized the independence of Kosovo. The International Court of Justice is to determine the legality of the unilateral declaration of independence by the ruling majority in Kosovo. This court will come to a verdict taking into account International Law, the situation on the ground, history of the region, etc. Predictions are that the verdict will be reached by this time next year. Lets see what the wise gray people in the court will conclude. The decision of this court is not binding, and each individual country will decide weather to respect their decision or not which means that it will have no practical effect (the USA, UK, France, will certainly not disgrace themselves by changing their position on the matter). The circumstances there today are a product of violence that came from both sides. To draw Kosovo into the map today is a presumption and a political opinion but far from a definite (however likely it may be) reality. It is interesting that you have already drawn Kosovo into the map while you are still searching for "a simple clear cut guideline". I am very interested to hear according to which guidelines have you decided to do so? Tripio Tripio ( talk) 13:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no I am not the IP 41... "What are you talking about? I did not draw it in any map. I do not even know which map you mean." Take it easy man, no need to be aggressive, the map which is at the top of the page, the political map of Europe (below the heading "this page is disputed..."), take a look. "My rationale would be to reflect all viewpoints, if there are different viewpoints and abandon discussions as to which viewpoint is more justified." Sounds good to me, but if I understand your point correctly, then the page will have to contain two maps of Europe. Tripio ( talk) 13:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I saw that you answered to each and every comment on this page, not only in the Kosovo topic, so I assumed that you are a moderator of this page and therefore that you drew or imported the maps. I extend my sincerest apologies because I see that you were very disturbed by my allegation. A dashed border is fine i suppose. It reflects the absurdity of the situation perfectly. Tripio ( talk) 14:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. But as it stands now, it makes it look as though Kosovo is in fact a fully recognized nation state, whereas no mention of Abkhazia et al exists. Whoever has added the present map is clearly going on POV. Either Kosovo should be removed entirely, or South Ossetia, Abkhazia, North Cyprus and Nagorno-Karabakh be added. 41.245.164.13 ( talk) 08:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
But why is Kosovo listed as being a European state, and included on the map, when none of the others even have dotted lines? This is POV and factually wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.187.61 ( talk) 11:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I find discussion about Kosovo stupid, Kosovo lives out Serbian law and Serbian reality, has it's own constitution, population, ethnic distribution and has customs with Serbia...So Kosovo is de facto divised and now that has declared it's indipendence this thing is stronger. I don't think that Kosovo should be compared to South Ossetia, Abkhzia, Nagorno Karabakh...etc, Maybe Kosovo shouldn't be listed as an independent country but with it's own borders and not inside the Administrative system of Serbia in the map, Kosovo is more simillar to Taiwan in my opinion, that doesn't figure as an independent state but it doesn't figure as part of China either and has it's own government and Administrative system...So shortly my opinion is that Kosovo should be on the map but not in the list of indipendent countries...
The "Europe according to the EU" map shows Gibraltar as "other European" as opposed to European Union. Gibraltar joined the European Union alongside the United Kingdom of which Gibraltar is a territory. Could someone please correct this. -- SJ3000 ( talk) 19:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Politically, maybe as a small part of Turkey is found in Europe so one can argue that the entire country should be treated as a European one. Geographically, no except for that little area found in Europe. The Asian part of Turkey IMO is not a part of Europe as it is not located within the European continent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.69.75 ( talk) 21:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
This article needs a big, fat POV-disputed tag at the top. Are the authors not aware that there is no consensus as to what Europe is? Why do they just make the assumption that it is X, when the entire article could be rewritten from the point of view that Europe is Y or even Z? Are we talking about Europe culturally? Historically? Linguistically? Demographically? Religiously? Geographically?-- Phalangst ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes and no. Only a tiny portion of Northern Turkey is officialy considered a part of Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.33.174.133 ( talk) 16:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
By the same logic that describes Turkey as part of Europe, then France is a Pacific nation (it has some small islands in the Pacific Ocean) and Britain is a South Atlantic country due to the Falkland Islands and South Georgia. In fact, the real claim that Turkey has to be European is based not in common sense but in political advantage and prestige. - Dughall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.134.103 ( talk) 01:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Georgia, Armenia (and Azerbaijan) is regarded by many people as European countries, and with this consideration, why should not Turkey be counted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.116.17 ( talk) 02:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Turkey's asian part is not in the "middle east" its the "near east".Just a clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.69.140.118 ( talk) 12:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Of course Turkey is not in Europe. As everybody knows Europe goes from the Atlantic to the Urals. Only a tiny proportion of Turkey is in Europe, and Turkey has absolutely nothing in common with Europe. So no. Turkey is not in Europe. On the other hand, Georgia and Armenia are in Europe. Every European knows that. Even Russia is in Europe because most of its people live in Europe (West of the Urals), and they share a common history and culture with Europe. Something that Turkey does not. 2 January 2009 by Tamoka —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamoka ( talk)
"European nations played a predominant role in global affairs from the 16th century onwards, especially after the beginning of Colonialism. By the 17th and 18th centuries, European nations controlled most of Africa, the Americas, and large portions of Asia." - This is utter nonsense. European 'predominance' was no where near global in the 16th century, and it is farcical to say that by the 17th and 18th centuries European nations controlled most of Africa, or Asia. Even the North American mainland hadn't been properly explored by this point. It wasn't until the late 19th century even that Europeans were able to penetrate into Africa. There is a huge lack of research behind the claims above and quite frankly it should be scrapped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.232.135 ( talk) 14:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Source? 41.245.177.213 ( talk) 16:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Source: D.H.Fieldhouse "Economics and Empire 1830-1914" (New York: Cornell Uni Press) page3 - In 1800 only 34% of the earth's surface had any kind of european presence. A figure which by 1914 rose to 84%. It was quite simply impossible for Europeans to have any kind of control in Africa before the end of the nineteenth century. Not only did Europeans require the extraordinary technological gap which developed with industrialisation and allowed weapons such as the maxim machine gun, but without the development of Quinine and other medicinal advances Europeans died in their droves from African diseases. Hence the term 'white man's grave'. It is quite legitimate to claim that by the late nineteenth and early 20th centuries European empires spanned the globe and controlled vast amounts of human and material resources, but this is simply not the case before the 1850s. And especially not in Africa. Infact if you follow the link that the above-cited text takes you to under "controlled most of Africa" it tells you straight away that the most significant phase of the process is the Partition of Africa itself, which doesn't happen until the 1880s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 02:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
So a quote from one obscure book is a reliable source? Dr Rgne ( talk) 14:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Why not use the "cooler" globe.-view map? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.224.134 ( talk) 20:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi there everybody, my name is Dave and I live in Dublin. On the Europe page in wiki it does not give the Republic of Ireland it's full title and only says 'Ireland'. It would be great if an admin could change the titles that say Ireland to the ROI. The title Ireland refers to the whole isle of Ireland where as the Europe page is just talking about the Republic. I am proud of my wee country, it's history and culture, and therefore I like to see it called the right name.
Thanks Dave
You may but may I point out that the ROI's officel name is actualy just Ireland probably because until 1998 The ROI claimed Northern Ireland. just thougth you aught to know. Lemonade100 ( talk) 17:44, 13 November 2008 (GMT)
Everyone agrees with me I suppose that 15 Degrees Fahrenheit does not convert into 8 degrees Celsius. The correct conversion would be -9.44 degrees Celsius. But I would rather forgo that statistic as the source is clearly a little flawed. Instead I would recommend removing that statistic and inform www.worldbook.com that they have made a mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixwisser123 ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Is spoken by over 1.5 million and is not represented on the linguistic map (Image:Simplified Languages of Europe map.svg), unlike Scottish Gaelic, which only has a speaking population of some >60,000 in Scotland. It is also a recognized "regional or minority language" under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Yi ken, aye? ; ) Donnchadh Rus ( talk) 16:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Contrary to several images on this page, the Isle of Man is not a member of the European Union. It is a crown dependency of Queen Elizabeth II who holds the Lordship separately and equally from that of the United Kingdom's, and thus does not share EU membership along with the UK in the same fashion as Gibraltar.
See the following PDF for some detail: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ebusiness/advantages/protocol3.pdf
I'm on a roll today... Donnchadh Rus ( talk) 16:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I object to the constant attempts to suggest that Asia Minor is part of Europe. For example in File:Europe, EU.png, it is perfectly unclear why only the European parts of Russia are highlighted, but both the European and the Asian parts of Turkey. This is inconsistent. Similarly, File:Europe's population growth - CIA 2008.jpg shows only the European part of Russia, while highlighting the Asian parts of Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Worse, the image suggests that this is what the CIA does, while the CIA factbook is simply the source of the numbers used to create the map. Yet again, File:Europe biogeography countries.svg does the same thing: Russia and Kazakhstan are treated as transcontinental, but Turkey isn't. The UN subregions map, File:Location-Europe-UNsubregions, Kosovo as part of Serbia.png does it properly, except for the weird implication that Armenia is a transcontinental country with 100% of its territory in Asia, but that's probably not a bad description of the situation. I suggest the offending images should either be corrected or removed. -- dab (𒁳) 11:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I took the list of countries at the end of the article, together with their area, population and density. I copied them onto an Excel table and added up the numbers.
The totals came out very different, as follows:
- Area - Article: 10,180,000 - Sum: 26,658,778
- Population - Article: 731,000,000 - Sum: 839,929,923
- Density - Article: 70 - Dividing the two "Article" numbers: 71,8 - Dividing the two "Sum" numbers: 31,5
These are very different results!
Am I doing something wrong? please enlighten me.
Regards,
loboarte loboarte@ig.com.br
Loboarte ( talk) 22:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)