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I am protesting in the strongest terms the dictating of what can and cannot be in this article by a user who does not even bother to join the community. the WP:AIR Page Content guidelines give a clear definition of what is considered "comparable", but this is continually ignored. The definition: Comparable aircraft: are those of similar role, era, and capability to this one. This will always be somewhat subjective, of course, but try to keep this as tight as possible. Again, some aircraft will be one-of-a-kind and this line will be inappropriate. It does not say "equal" or "identical", but "similar".
Similarities:
Differences:
In addition, most of the differences are of degree, not substance. I genuinely do not see how they cannot be considered "comparable" by WP:AIR's definition of the term.
Getting this page protected obviously did not help the matter, nor did simply waiting the user out. I DO NOT accept that a consensus was reached previously, just that the user was unable to edit the article, and the issue died down. How can we compromise? Put in "F-2"? It's either in or out - there is no apparent middle ground. I don't know if IPs are eligible for Arbitration or not, but that seems to be the only solution left here, as no one seems inclined to enforce 3RR on IPs. - BillCJ 16:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, he certainly isn't interpreting the consensus that way! And do you mean "warring" or "warning" (just not sure in context). - BillCJ 16:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I just wasn't sure of your meaning, and wanted to make sure. - BillCJ 17:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Will this work?
If having listed is a POV, and not having it listed is POV, then having it in, but struck out, must be NPOV! I don't see any other way to do it! - BillCJ 17:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
What kind of stealth features does the Typhoon have? -- Eurocopter tigre 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.
Royzee ( talk) 21:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate on comparability of the Typhoon and F-22 suggests the need to define "comparable." Part of the difficulty in this debate is that there are exactly two definitions of the word:
It would seem that the intent of the section "Comparable aircraft" is to list aircraft that are similar. You wouldn't expect to see P-51 or T-33 in this section because they are too dissimilar. On the other hand, it seems obvious that the F-18 should be in the list because there are strong similarities between it and the Typhoon (both are strike fighters with STOL capabilities and similar performance). The F-22. on the other hand is a fifth generation air superiority fighter with stealth capabilities. These are fundamentally different roles. Consider what the article says about the comparison between the Typhoon and the F-22:
I think that John Jumper is in a position to judge and he says that the Typhoon and the F-22 are very different. Sunray 20:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Take a moment and look at the user changes log for the 2 individuals the edit war. The first editor is an "IP", new to the community and trying in good faith to add to the article. He is guilty of standing his ground when his edits are reverted. The second editor has been around for a while. He has the ability to create positive input and has some real expertise in the field. This second editor however has a long track record of:
To me, it is clear. To those with open minds, please run the logs, look at the "positive comments" he has to others that are attempting to improve the project but cross his path. To those that are in his club, I have no doubt I will be attacked, or more likely edited out. To all, please step back, look at the big picture, and do the right thing. 68.245.237.240 23:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a word: I agree that it makes sense to differentiate between 4th and 5th generation aircraft when the ability of stealth emerged and influenced design decisions. I agree also that it is therefore correct to label the Raptor as 5th generation aircraft and the Typhoon as 4.5th generation aircraft to point out the air superiority and technological advance compared to 4th generation fighters but attaching much less importance on stealth design.
But ranking a fighter in another generation does say nothing about its outcome in the competition with others fighters. It is the design decision in the neverending attempt to find the best compromise of avionics, performance, speed, load, stealthiness, price etc. which will finally have the last word in combat !
When the carrier was invented, it was clear that it had no chance against a battleship. But battleships were so helpless against dive bombers and torpedo planes that their sea superiority was futile. The German Tiger was in contrast (fully operational) definitely better than the T-34/76, but the Tiger's chassis, its mechanical fragility and price was no match against the superior numbers of the T-34 with a good, easy and robust design.
As the discussion mostly concentrates on the differences between Typhoon and Raptor I would like to ask the opponents of "Typhoon comparable with Raptor": Is the MiG-15 comparable with the F-86 ? The MiG-15 has better performance abilities: wing loading, thrust ratio and climb rate and a heavy punch (23 and 37 mm). The F-86 has better armor, its tail gate and its radar range-sight together with more and lighter guns. The designers obviously designed different aircrafts (as the pilot of both Typhoon and Raptor said: It is like NASCAR vs Formula One). If the MiG-15 and the F-86 *is* not comparable, they shouldn't be mentioned as comparable together. If they are comparable, tell me the difference between Typhoon/Raptor and MiG-15/F-86.
What I really would like to know is how the fighters would compare in a show fight. 136.172.253.189 00:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I am the user changing the AC types. None of the reasons above hold water. In fact the F-18E/F is of a newer design than the EF. The F-18E/F is pretty much a clean sheet design developed in the 90-95 timeframe. This is newer than the EF which is basically a 80s design that has finally overcome teething problems and is entering production. The F-18 designation was merely a way to get around congress' reluctance to fund three new fighters.
This brings me to the second point. The EF is not a game changer like the F-22. In fact most of the advanced features like LPI radar will not even be fielded until at least 2012. All of the AC I mentioned in various blocks have the same if not better electronics and fire control. EFs claim to LO and Super cruise are marginal at best. All AC mentioned have supersonic dash capability in military power as does the EF. The EF merely goes a bit faster. It is not however true super cruise where the speed difference, the length of time able to do it and the wide altitude band where it can do it makes it tactically significant like the Raptor's capability. This is pure marketing hype on the part of the EF consortium.
Lastly as for AC compared. There is no comparison between EF and Raptor. Do some research that does not involve BAE. Consider the true known capabilites and that becomes clear. DERA is misleading. It is old, funded by an interested party and does not take into account many of the advanced weapons and sensors flying on the other AC today.
I would also suggest that this has all been gone over in the past in the archived comments and the "consensus" then was that the Typhoon and Raptor are not comparable. So the question becomes is Wiki like a Banana Republic where we keep voting until we get the "consensus" we want or is Wiki about facts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.84.181.81 ( talk)
Please let's get rid of the comparable aircraft section. Way too much time is being spent "discussing" it. It's way too subjective anyway. For example this whole debate is about the F-22. But why is the Gripen listed as comparable? Not much short of half the MTOW of the Typhoon, one engine (itself less powerful than just one EJ200), almost half the range and considerably lower ceiling. etc. etc. Similar holes can be picked in almost any other "comparison". About the only aircraft that really belongs in such a list is the Rafale - similar performance, developed concurrently (almost), similar config. Mark83 20:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Good idea Mark83 I would support it, it is only a guide for readers to have other aircraft to compare against, most would not notice it missing. I suspect if any consensus on what should be on the list is ever agreed it would not last for long. Remove it and lets get on with producing a better encyclopedia. MilborneOne 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This is fine with me. Comparisons will probably be added to the text by folks. But that will be easier to police. Make them provide a reference as we should. Removing field from template may be an option as well. - Fnlayson 21:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with this. Maybe leaving the Rafale as the only comparable aircraft should be ok, but it is better now without that section. -- Eurocopter tigre 21:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Well that was simple in the end!! Yeah, I personally think the Rafale should be referred to as a comparable aircraft - but then maybe that's well established already and could well just open the flood gates again? Sure we could agree here to JUST list the Rafale, but we would be reverting additions for ever more. Mark83 22:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
"Please let's get rid of the comparable aircraft section."
- and now it has just been moved to the "performance section" instead - 90% of this is USAF statements comparing the F-22 with the Typhoon. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 14:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Unless you want to start a new "comparison section" under the tittle "performance", it dont belong there Mark83....and the quote you used it a lot of different quotes put into one quote also, the USAF source you refer to dont have that quote you had put together.-- Financialmodel ( talk) 18:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed by anon. with the edit summary "Removed bullshit signed your Friendly Neighnorhood Bullshit Remover". The edit summary language used is unhelpful, however the section is extremely dubious. No mention has been made of this "incident" in Flight International, AWST et. al. Mark83 13:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The citation is dubious and this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. For starters, sources should be linked to someone who would know firdt hand about the event. For instance "Commander such and such of the 117th squadron states ........." The RAF states...... Your source has none of that. Is not coroborated in any other reputable source such as AV Week, and deals with a subject that is highly open to debate such as if it occurred, what where the circumstances that they occurred. I will give you one such hint, they usually sqwack on their transponders so the FAA doesn't route a commercial jet their way. Reports of exercises should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you insist I will add a few with proper notation so you can see how it's done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.3.196 ( talk) 16:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Try these citations. Note people who where there are quoted. Note corroboration. In early 2006, after an exercise involving just eight F-22s in Nevada in Nov. 2005, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley AFB, Virginia, commented "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss. They didn't see us at all." [2]
In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 5 to 1 at times. [3] [4] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%. [5]
Read what he is saying. Of course it's not about the Raptor however the citations from the Raptor article illustrate what a good believable source is. The observations are corroborated and they are first hand accounts from quotable sources. IOW, names are named. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.225.146 ( talk) 00:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- "International Air Power" is an air force magazine in paperversion, and vol. 20 does say the Typhoon beat the F-22. Anyone interested in info about the Typhoon should be permitted to read about this, or at least be given the source on where to read the full info, but instead it seems F-22 fans are allowed to censor this information in this article, just beacuse USAF didnt officially confirm the F-22 lost to the Typhoon. -- Financialmodel 21:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The USAF and lockeed martin will probably support this view, as most Americans (what are you), but to censor the source just because you dont like it or you dont have a 5 star US general saying the Typhoon beat the F-22 is biased. Say what was stated, and that the event is not officially confirmed by USAF, but that a few other sources like BBC have mentioned the event briefly. This trail-result is important information, and just because you didnt watch it live in telly dosent mean you should censor all statements about the event. "internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" is a respected airfoce magazine hold by several airforces.-- Financialmodel 12:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
BillCJ said: "The info is basically useless becasue it gives no other info on the "contest", such as the conditions of the aircraft, or even the relative skills of the pilots." - useless because no conditions of the aircraft? When the F-22 article claims the F-22 shot down God knows how many F-15 with no loss, are you given any info about the conditions of the aircraft here? And "the relative skills of the pilots", who are you kidding, what do you want? Did you see a list on the relative skills of the pilots from that story of the f-22 beat XXX f-15 in the F-22 article? This aint a computergame with highscores. Perhaps I should go delete all such claims in the F-22 article based on your criteria here?-- Financialmodel 12:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
See above. The claims in the F-22 article have been corroborated and attributed to named sources. 12.164.252.102 14:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel 17:03, 19 September 2007- start: This non-user from USA saying International Air Power Review is NOT a reliable source must be specific for which reason this is. I will bet you that even your country's airforce subscribe to International Air Power Review, just because (what is probably) a US raptor fan dont like the story out there, its simply to easy just to name the source as un-reliable, this is simply not true. I do challenge you to contact your national airforce and check if their library dont subscripe to this source. As for BillCJ i have seen him on the f-22 article that is a very biased article about the F-22 and more sounds like a fan-club wrote it than anything else. His reason here for not including the info as a source of reference is completly ridiculous, BillCJ said: "The info is basically useless becasue it gives no other info on the "contest", such as the conditions of the aircraft, or even the relative skills of the pilots." -listen to it, he dont want the info out there on what is probably one of the most debated topics of all, because "the relative skills of the pilots" is unknown, again i challenge him to find this from any source provided on the F-22 test's vs. other US fighers, this is what is included in the F-22 artile tat BillCJ supervise:
In early 2006, after an exercise involving just eight F-22s in Nevada in Nov. 2005, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley AFB, Virginia, commented "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss. They didn't see us at all."[33]"In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 5 to 1 at times.[21][34] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%.[30]"
- now BillCJ where is "the relative skills of the pilots" shown here? What is the conditions of these aircrafts? Why havent you deleted this from your F-22 article? My guess is that you are one of the persons behind the clear bias of the F-22 article and the fact that you refuse to even mention an incident between the Typhoon and the F-22 (in both articles) dosent seem reasonable. This incident is desciped by both International Air Power Review and BBC world among others and backed up by the fact that Eurofighter was sceduled to be at that location from the official site. When you add in the pictures of the F-22 and Typhoon together from the reported location also, i simply fail to see a reason for the censorship of the test-results between the Typhoon and the F-22, at least it should be said that these sources report the Typhoon have flown highly succesfull "missions" against the f-22-- Financialmodel 17:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok I am the IP who added the content - and caused the discussion. Honestly I find it disturbing that the IAPR as a source can deliberately be left out with reasons that don't hold up against other sources allowed. Also leaving out the comparison section is a way to treat a patient... surgery successfull... patient dead. The comparison section was the most interesting one - leaving it out takes a major element out. ALSO why not LEAVING the report in - UNTIL it is proven to be wrong - and if it is then take it out. Instead it seems to me that there is a clear intent of eliminating that encounter. Anyone know how to use the tracking changes feature here on wikipedia - which recently exposed companies behind the edits. I wouldn't be surprised if the people deliberately keeping all information that's somewhat negative for the F22 - would be linked to some interest groups. Oh and feel free to track my ip - I am in the US by no ways biased in any way. I am an enthusiast who loves reading comparisons. It's a shame that wikipedia allows this to happen. The arguments given for the removal are simply not worthy a Wikipedia editor - I'd have expected a more logical approach. Then one more thing: One has to look at the context here. When entering F22 or eurofighter the wikipedia articles pop up as number 2 -3 on google. Each airplane costs millions of dollars - or billions when looking at contracts. The recent typhoon saudi deal is worth 75 billion. Here is what really happened to my opinion: The meeting took place, but once the results were made public, ANYTHING will be done from the US Side to suppress it, discredit it or mention it has ever happened. You likely won't find any USA military person who will confirm anything - their carreer would be over BIG TIME. In fact I think it would probably make sense from a manufacturers point of view to spend some $ and make sure that the number 2-3 spots on the web don't mention this incident - or even hint towards it. After all it would be disastrous if an army spends twice as much $ on a plane that might not be superior. At the end its economic interest... but I think it's wrong to have Wikipedia be ruled by those interests and allow to have these edits continue. The source is a respected print publication - I highly doubt that a wikipedia admin has more knowledge/clout then a print magazine subscribed to by probably all airforces in this world!!
So let's face it - these 2 entries F22 / Typhoon are absolutely crucial and can win/lose millions for the countries economies. Looking at the discussions going on - It's hard to not notice the bias towards the raptor... (since we can't change the person doing these edits opinion or hidden interests) however it quite honestly simply means that the Europeans don't quite have their sh?t together or better lobbying/PR muscle as the F22 fraction does....
Further, the EF consortium certainly has their PR "sh?t" together, but it's not targeted on the Raptor, they are trying to hype the EF in order to "steal" JSF sales. It's not about the magazine, it's about how the magazine reported it and the fact that there is nothing or no one who will attach their name to the rumor. You would think the British pilot has nothing to loose on this one. Why the silence from the British? 162.83.253.25 01:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
If you want the truth just write to the Eurofighter-companies... they'll provide you more details then you can swallow - if you wanna open that can of worms... unsigned - 76.102.190.6 17:43, 24 September 2007
SOMEONE MENTIONED THAT there is absolutely no accreditation anywhere for the story as published by the Magazine. Well GUESS WHAT I FOUND ONE. Here is a link to a forum where a guy mentioned he saw 2 typhoons at the NAS China Lake - that POST IS EXACTLY from the time period when the article stated the comparison happened....the post is from back in 2005 so prior to all this discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/94610606/m/2601031603
Here is what Jewels_201 wrote in the forum: Jewels_201 Posted Sat April 09 2005 21:09 Hide Post Two Typhoons were at NAS China Lake several weeks ago. One 1-seater and the other a tandem one. That's probably when Gen. Jumper flew the aircraft. I don't doubt that there were DACT/ACM/BFM as well. ~J
So 2 typhoons were there in NAS China Lake, so we have a print report of an aviation magazine and now we also got an eye witness that can verify that at least the typhoons were there (statement made prior to this debatE)... I hate to say it guys but just give it a couple months and we'll have this thing nailed down rock solid... We got the first eyewitness that can VERIFY part of the story... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 23:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
OK I JUST SIGNED up for an account that way I I am not an IP anymore...
"Yes, The Eurofighter was at Nellis for a short time, and of course some Raptors live here. Although the aircraft were parked at opposite ends of the flightline." http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-3303-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-255.html It came from F-16.net. A forum with a lot of Airforce crew dogs, pilots, and aerospace consultants. By the way the consenus I have found is that IAPR often does report erroneously and it's sources are often unidentified. I suggest you perhaps go to another forum, perhaps an "American" one rather than a British one like Keypublishing and see if IAPAR is considered the "gold standard". I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.253.25 ( talk) 01:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
1. In an encyclopedia that supposedly deals with facts citing a source from a report called Independent that was commissioned by the manufacturer is to say the least very suspect. 2. As was pointed out the article is about the Eurofighter not the Raptor or HMS Astute. If we are going to bring other AC into the article using a dubious source then it should at least be balanced by pointing out that due to cost escalation a Tranche II Eurofighter, the one without the AESA radar costs almost as much as a Raptor to which the unit cost from the USAF for 2008 is 137.4 million( http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070212-004.pdf) vs 122 million for the Eurofighter. An aircraft which no one is saying is in any way comparable to the Raptor. IOW not much bang for the buck. In fact if the USAF where to buy 100 more Raptors today the unit cost would cost less than $117 million( http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123022371) So do you want to keep this article about the Eurofighter or should we draw other weapons systems in and tell the complete accurate story? 12.164.252.102 06:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. The most recent, documented (right in this wiki article no less)unit cost for the 72 Eurofighters that Saudi Arabia is buying is $122 Million. That is without weapons, guidance systems and no AESA radar. The total projected unit cost for the 2008 Raptors $137.4 Million as documented above. That is with full avionics, engine and an AESA radar. Just add gas pilot and weapons. 12.164.252.102 07:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
"as much as a Raptor to which the unit cost from the USAF for 2008 is 137.4 million" -LOL, this information is cherry-picked by an F-22 fanatic in that article, the cost of the Raptor is much higher. Dont use 1 polluted article to pollute another.-- Financialmodel 11:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
CDI reports F22 cost as 411 million USD, and 250 million USD flyaway cost. I also found it in few other sources. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/distance-kept-lockheed-f-22-out-of-libya-action-schwartz-says.html http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?documentid=4710&programID=37&from_page=../friendlyversion/printversion.cfm http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/TPL_Essay8_2.9.11.pdf In short, both 350 million USD unit program and 150 million USD flyaway cost for F22 are outdated, and should be changed. 78.2.236.42 ( talk) 12:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC) comment start: I didnt see this response, but you want sources? (see Talk:F-22_Raptor#The real price of the F-22)
The article of the Typhoon seems to be used by F-22 fans as a playground - they all like to quote the Jumper statement in a way so it seems that they are designed for "different levels of performence", where they then indicate the F-22 is better, using quotes from US airforce, when quotes are inserted from same source, only newer, that Jumper say they run "neck on neck" this is deleted". Also a clear quote that a austrian general liked the Typhoon was deleted perhaps, because he said it was the best he had ever flown - all had sources. Do we jsut delete and replace what we dont like when new info is added?-- Financialmodel 18:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Now some idiot have added even more about the F-22 in the article and locked it. This article is now clearly biased and minipulated by raptor fanatics, just read the comparisons, he said they run neck on neck, but now this is removed and its said they are designed for different levels of performence and then 3-4 new lines are added about the F-22. - Who locked this and where can this article be marked as biased?-- Financialmodel 03:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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It seems relevent to discuss stealth more in this article. That the typhoon has less stealth, and therefore better aerodynamics, than the American fighters is probably the principal operational distinction between them.
Kitplane01 16:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature." http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html
You are a Reston Martin Lockheed Troll? -- 90.187.24.2 17:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot
66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Then show us a scientific paper from Paul Metz about stealth!
A Sailboat can fly?
You think that all is only obtainable with ASEA? Think again. Yea, great is better. Not always. Nmax = 100* 0,5/(df/fo)!
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/05/navy_boeing_superhornet_070517/ How many AN/APG-79 are filded?-- 90.187.37.228 07:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is on the Eurofighter Typhoon and this talk page is not a discussion forum. - Fnlayson 13:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2 at the Reference desk. |
The entire paragraph is removed for the following reasons: 1. Global Security article cited makes NO MENTION of either F-35 or F-22. 2. Global Security article referneced links (that which the article bases it's fact on) DO NOT WORK. 3. Paul Metz has no reason to lie and I would say he is far more qualified to make judgements on airodynamic performance than JWCOOK or the Eurofighter PR page. 4. Proof for your own eyes - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW2Hvu_mUdU The fact is the EF is not designed for stealth because th emanufacturer does not know how to do it. Not because of some BS about not compromising on airodynamic performance. If you think the claim should be put back in then fix the citations and debunk what Metz said.
http://www.f-104.de/exponates/english/exp_lampyridae_eng.html BAE Replica -- 90.187.58.89 22:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature." http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html h a Thales sales brochure is a really good source for unbiased information, not. What is passive radar anyway? Metz, not a good source? Do you even know who he is?141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Metz's Qualifications: Paul Metz is a subject matter expert for this issue. He was a fighter pilot, a test pilot for the B2, YF-23, F-35 as well as the F-22. His graduate studies are in Aeronautical Engineering. He is a Fellow and past President of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. He has received several awards directly related to the profession...... It keeps going. http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
Further according to Wiki "Test pilots must have an excellent knowledge of aeronautical engineering, in order to understand how they are testing and why." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot Lastly, he retired from LM in 2006. He has no reason to make this stuff up. Metz is indeed qualified and an expert in both aerodynamics and stealth and he says the two are no longer mutually exclusive. 66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Talking about stealth in regards to the Eurofighter is absolutely ridiculous. Kitplane's insistence on keeping it is further proof that Wikipedia is a farce. Your "source" http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/structure.html for the claim that the Eurofighter is second only to the F-22 in stealth is laughable. In fact no such thing is claimed the actual quotewhich is as follows:
"The actual radar cross section is of course classified, it is however set out for the RAF in SR(A)-425. According to the RAF the Eurofighter's RCS more than exceeds these requirements. More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature."
So we have a problem on several levels. There is an implication of something that we know is empirically wrong - NO ONE has ever said that the RCS of the EF is less the the F-117 or B2. the web cite used as a source is a fanboy website and it's "facts" are suspect. Lastly RCS is classified for ANY military aircraft. In fact one could argue that the Rafale, Viggen and Super Hornet all have a lower RCS than Eurofighter. The entire stealth part of the article should be removed and mention should rightfully be given in the design section that the Eurofighter has had RAM applied to the leading edges and intakes. But low frontal RCS, don't make me laugh, there is this big metal antenna right in the nose of the aircraft that reflects and generates plenty of RF energy. That is one of the reasons why AESA radar is so important. Aside from being LPI. The chips that make up the antenna are steered electronically so the antenna can be canted at an angle to deflect incoming RF energy. 151.204.148.50 02:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Therefore is it canted at the F-35. ;) Canted degrade the focus, the effective size and range in the frontal hemisphere.;) http://www.radartutorial.eu/17.bauteile/bt36.en.html F22 and EF: Therefore is the radom polarization and frequncies selective (bandpass), the antenna is not canted! For LPI you should first learn what LPI mean and how a slot antenna works!!!
Viggen, Gripen, Rafale and Hornet have oval air intakes that is not very stealty. Rino, F-22 and EF have angular intakes. ;)
http://www.airpower.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2629 ;) http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airpower.at%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2629&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools -- 90.186.76.28 12:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
[1] The effect of dihedral on RCS have you not understand. -- 90.186.128.244 14:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2 at the Reference desk. |
As has been stated before this talk page is only to discuss the related article, if you want to chatter please use your own talk pages. Thank you. MilborneOne 17:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, stealth is about more than planeform, but that is part of the equation. Also, the willingness to carry payload externally is another part.
Do you disagree with this globalsecurity.org quote?
For example, "The use of Stealth technology is incorporated throughout the aircraft’s basic design. The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features. Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry." at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm
We go throught this over and over and the FACTS CLEARLY indicaet that you are WRONG KITPLANE.
Kitplane01
06:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
We go throught this over and over and the FACTS CLEARLY indicaet that you are WRONG KITPLANE. 71.247.5.59 14:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. Stealth is about so much more than planeform. 162.83.224.74 17:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC) http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00089/2_Eurofighter_capabi_89302a.pdf How stealht is stealht? Page 41--90.186.191.74 08:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Where do you come up with better airodynamics? The F-22 outperforms the EF. If the JSF performs up to expectation it will as well.141.155.130.103 03:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Very stealthy, especially when you have a LPI radar. BTW if IRST is so good for detecting, tracking and targeting the enemy how come it has not replaced radar. Hint, try looking for a needle in a haystack looking through a straw. Nice sales brochure EADS has there, too bad Super Hornet already has all the toys EF hopes to have one day. At 2/3 the price.70.18.8.23 03:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature."
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html
h a Thales sales brochure is a really good source for unbiased information, not. What is passive radar anyway? Metz, not a good source? Do you even know who he is?141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Kitplane your continued attempts at inclusion of a statement that makes it sound like the decision to not make EF stealthy is ridiculous. The plane was not developed for stealth because it's original mission did not call for stealth. Second, Paul Metz, and others, as well as anyone watching an airshow with an F-22 performance will tell you that there is nothing given up in terms of aerodynamics for stealth nor if the goals of the F-35 are to be met will there be any problem with perfromance as well. Please stop inserting your unsupported opinion into the article141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz is a subject matter expert for this issue. He was a fighter pilot, a test pilot for the B2, YF-23, F-35 as well as the F-22. His graduate studies are in Aeronautical Engineering. He is a Fellow and past President of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. He has received several awards directly related to the profession...... It keeps going. http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
Further according to Wiki "Test pilots must have an excellent knowledge of aeronautical engineering, in order to understand how they are testing and why." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot Lastly, he retired from LM in 2006. He has no reason to make this stuff up. Metz is indeed qualified and an expert in both aerodynamics and stealth and he says the two are no longer mutually exclusive. 66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Always good to see that the saying a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You have certainly prove that point 90.187.191.157. Variants of the NACA 6 series of foils are used in sailboat keels all the way through such high performance jet fighters as the F-4 Phantom and the F-15. No one would argue that the F-15 is in any way lacking in aerodynamic excellence. Here is a list for you to go educate yourself. http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html208.39.157.25 15:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Many articles about the Eurofighter mention this tradeoff. For example, "The use of Stealth technology is incorporated throughout the aircraft’s basic design. The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features. Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry." at
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm.
How about "Stealth comes at a high cost in aerodynamic performance, which the LCA and Eurofighter designers avoided." at http://www.stratmag.com/issue2Dec-15/page02.htm.
The BBC thinks that the Eurofighter's stealthiness is important. They think there is a tradeoff between stealth and aerodynamics. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1818077.stm
One can also find a mention of the trade-off in many scholarly articles, for example cosmos.ucdavis.edu/2003/cluster%206/Jae%20Park/index.htm.
The most important operational differences between the Eurofighter and the new American fighters are that the Eurofighter is less stealthy and can carry external stores.
Finally, if you disagree say why here and don't edit war. Kitplane01 06:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Billcj says to seek consensus before changing the Eurofighter page. But what I've written is true, relevent, and cited. The only problem is that some anonymous person keep deleting it.
Mr. Billcj, I have looked at your talk page and seen your contributions. You've got my respect and I'd be happy to work with you. Besides that some anonymous person keeps reverting my two sentences, is there a problem? What would you have them say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's try concentrate on working out the best paragraph on stealth/performance that we can here, and then get a consensus to include it. THere do appear to be conflicting sources on the degree stealth affects the performances of the F-22 and F-35, and the best thing here is to find the best sources available, and present them. We don't have to take a side one way or another if those sources disagree, just to present the whole objectively, if possible. - BillCJ 20:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Kitplane01 21:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
True there are no stealth European planes, there are no stealth Russian planes for that matter. AS with most aircraft of the same generation as Eurofighter there are plenty of planes that measures where taken to reduce RCS. Rafale and Super Hornet come to mind. They are much better comparison than F-22 and F-35. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The entire entry on stealth in regards to the Typhoon is ridiculous. True Stealth aircraft are orders of magnitude "stealthier". This applies to emissions control in the use of LPI radar, masking the exhaust as well as radar. Claiming the Eurofighter is stealthy is like someone saying they are a little bit pregnant. Yes, the plane has had RAM applied, but that is about all. It is no more stealthy than it's contemporaries such as the Rafale and Super Hornet. A better way to understand the degree of "stealthiness" on these aircraft is that it is much like applying camoflage. Nothing more and there really is nothing out there that says otherwise. I would quote from the official Eurofighter website from which the Global Security entry uses as its reference and which it misquotes - "Stealth technology is incorporated in the basic design. Features include low frontal Radar Cross Section (RCS), passive sensors and supercruise capability." ( http://www.eurofighter.com/et_mp_df.asp)There is nothing said about how carrying external weapons increases an aircraft's radar cross section. That should be pretty obvious to everyone. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The fact is if you are carrying your stores internally your aerodynamics are going to be much better than a similar airplane carrying external weapons. To try to make the case that Eurofighter was not made especially stealthy because they wanted to have the advantage of being able to carry external stores is lunacy. Further the insinuation in the article that the Eurofighter's "stealthiness falls somewhere between an F-117 and the F-22 is pure fantasy and again has no basis in fact. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Frankly the stealth paragraph should not be included. The plane is not in the same class in regards to stealth as the f-117, B-2 or any other truly LO aircraft. I sentence such as "The Typhoon incorporates RAM and other design features to reduce it's radar cross section to some extent." 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Lastly, both the F-22 and F-35 can and will carry external stores in certain situations. In fact the F-22 has four 5000 pound plumbed stations. See http://strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-47689.aspx for pictures of F-22 jettisoning two fuel tanks. The F-35 has six external hard points. But again all of this is moot since they can both carry a full war load internally. So why is is this even brought up in the article? 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Talking about stealth in regards to the Eurofighter is absolutely ridiculous. Kitplane's insistence on keeping it is further proof that Wikipedia is a farce. Your "source" http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/structure.html for the claim that the Eurofighter is second only to the F-22 in stealth is laughable. In fact no such thing is claimed the actual quotewhich is as follows:
"The actual radar cross section is of course classified, it is however set out for the RAF in SR(A)-425. According to the RAF the Eurofighter's RCS more than exceeds these requirements. More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature."
So we have a problem on several levels. There is an implication of something that we know is empirically wrong - NO ONE has ever said that the RCS of the EF is less the the F-117 or B2. the web cite used as a source is a fanboy website and it's "facts" are suspect. Lastly RCS is classified for ANY military aircraft. In fact one could argue that the Rafale, Viggen and Super Hornet all have a lower RCS than Eurofighter. The entire stealth part of the article should be removed and mention should rightfully be given in the design section that the Eurofighter has had RAM applied to the leading edges and intakes. But low frontal RCS, don't make me laugh, there is this big metal antenna right in the nose of the aircraft that reflects and generates plenty of RF energy. That is one of the reasons why AESA radar is so important. Aside from being LPI. The chips that make up the antenna are steered electronically so the antenna can be canted at an angle to deflect incoming RF energy. 151.204.148.50 02:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airpower.at%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2629&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools -- 90.186.76.28 12:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Eurofighter Typhoon/Archive 2 at the Reference desk. |
As has been stated before this talk page is only to discuss the related article, if you want to chatter please use your own talk pages. Thank you. MilborneOne 17:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it worthwhile mentioning that the plane was featured in a BBC TV programme hosted by James May? No doubt there will be a long list of 'VIPs' who have been flown supersonically (doubt May was) like they used to in the two-seat Lightning. Not sure the Tiffie has appeared in any movies yet. James Bond perhaps? Other Wiki's have such 'trivia' included. Don't want to lower the tone but... Cheers Roy Royzee 12:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Ho ho - May is unlikely to get an award with that haircut. There were several noteworthy aspects in the clip. To his credit he did not throw up. Maybe I will make a clip of it and put it on YT so you can make a judgement. On a similar note from the preview shown on the latest Top Gear the news series will show another one of those races involving a Tiffie vs a car. I have seen one of these on YT - maybe this should be mentioned, a Typhoon vs Ferrari? See: [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUruFwWEz4k Royzee 15:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Update - there is a video on YT showing the BBC filming the soon to be aired contest between a Bugatti and a Typhoon: [5] Royzee 17:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Also there are photos on Air Attack: http://www.air-attack.com/php/displ_img.php?imgurl=/MIL/eurofighter/typhoon_veyron_2_20071013.jpg Royzee 06:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Reply: Ho ho. My style seems to come over as sarcastic. I do actually prefer May to those other TG chaps. Like his books too. I agree the Ferrari race was a publicity stunt. Nevertheless, it does have some merit as probably the first public demo of one aspect of its power. It also serves as a reassurance to the taxpayers that their money is being well-spent etc. Oops maybe I am sounding sarcastic;) Also, while I agree with you that the video quality is not optimal it is a unique record. This is where YT scores, generous people who take the time to share their clips can provide a glimpse we would otherwise be denied. I know what goes in to preparing clips for YT and it's not a five minute job. So thanks to them for bothering. OK there is a show-off element but I am grateful they share. Like you I have yet to see a full Tiffie display. Time to get off my hobbyhorse and get back to work! Cheers Roy Royzee 09:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Would the regulars from WP:AIR please check this edit for validity? It removed sourced information. It was made several times under an IP and then by a brand new user, who is actually our old sockpuppet friend once known as Wikzilla, as are the IP comments above signed 141.155.128.109. I have reverted per process, as edits by banned users aren't normally allowed to stand, but in the interest of accuracy, I wanted someone else to review it to see if his edits this time had any validity. Thanks! AKRadecki Speaketh 13:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph
was taken from the cited site. It's one paragraph from a large site, use for educational purpose. I believe this qualifies for "fair use", however I will be willing to rewrite it if need be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Mark, got your request about pasting in stuff verbatim - my intent was benign as I was alerting people like yourself who presumably may want to edit the stuff and pop it in some time in your own style rather than me do it and maybe incur the wrath of others. Will desist from now on.
BTW I like your list of each Tiffie and what each has done. I wonder which aircraft were chosen for the recent flypast - this was my first sight of this aircraft. Like London buses, hadn't seen one and then 6 come by at once! Cheers Roy PS Have sent the message this way as I could not see how to reply to your private message.
Royzee 08:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
According to reports such as in Flight International, Italy is grappling with a funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters. A news item by Pino Modola reports how their government moved to guarantee funding for the next five years. However, it has not yet formally committed to the Tranche 3 production phase thanks to cost concerns. Italy has 24 of its 75 Typhoons as per the first two production tranches. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/10/08/217866/italy-grapples-with-funding-dilemma-over-tranche-3-eurofighters.html
Royzee 12:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
A short report on Flight about trials - photo of the impressive warload notably with various LGBs re-emphasising its ground attack role as opposed to interception, CAP etc.
Royzee 06:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
(I left this note on the IP's talk page, but since it's probably a dynamic IP, that editor will likely never see it, so I'm dropping a copy here) Please do not removed cited information as you did at Eurofighter Typhoon. If you believe that the information is incorrect, go to the talk page and discuss it. What is your removal based on? Your own opinion that it is factually incorrect? There are opinions that disagree with that, and in the end, this isn't a place for your opinion anyway, it's a place for cited material. So, where's your source for showing that this is "factually incorrect"? Bill wasn't insinuating that you couldn't add meaningful content, what the issue is is that new editors are often unaware of our guidelines and policies, and therefore edit from the wrong direction. I'd rather not semi-protect this page again, so please edit within the parameters of how we do things. AKRadecki Speaketh 13:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
If IP editors want to edit war instead of discussing things here like they've been asked to numerous times by multiple project editors, then IPs simply don't get to edit here. Follow the rules, have a little patience to let process work, and things will be fine. This is an encyclopedia, not a wild web forum. Thumb your nose at the rules, and this is the result. AKRadecki Speaketh 17:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
According to statements in the media the Japanese Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba has gone on record suggesting his country might consider acquiring the Typhoon. In an interview he said the strongest alternative among planes made other countries was the Eurofighter. He stated that the Rafale was difficult to use, they couldn't consider a Russian fighter plane so he thought the Typhoon was all that was left. There has been some falling out with the US over leaking of information about the US Aegis radar system making the F22 less of an option at least for now.
See, for example Reuters:
Royzee 06:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There was a report on google News linking to a Chinese newspaper People's Daily Online. It referred to Eurofighter consortium being ready to deliver 24 Typhoon aircraft to the Romanian Air Force in the 2010-2014 period said program director for Romania Giuseppe Paoletti at a press conference organized within the EXPOMIL 2007 show in Bucharest. It added that they could provide the first operational squadron of Typhoon warplanes in 2010 replacing its present MiG-21 Lancer planes. [Better get those pilots into training if they are to going to be able to handle these much more complex aircraft by then IMO]. See: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90781/90876/6287157.html Royzee 07:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
In a short article about the Tranche 2, Typhoon Development, the Tiffie's 'Instrumented Production Aircraft 6' (IPA6) at Warton completed engine runs; the first time it has worked as a complete system independently of ground support equipment.
http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/8267 Royzee 07:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
First flight of IPA6 took place on 1 November 2007, under the control of project Test Pilot Mark Bowman, taking off at 13.06 hrs hours and staying airborne for 54 minutes. While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. http://www.eurofighter.com/news/20071101_ipa6.asp Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
In a PR Opsens Inc. announced an order from BAE Systems for the supply of RadSens-type signal conditioners and OTG-R-type fiber optic temperature sensors. It follows recent approval of these products obtained from the Defence Ordnance Safety Group (DOSG), an organization of the UK Ministry of Defence. It did not specify what these are for, they could be engine monitoring of course.
Opsens says it is a leading developer, manufacturer and supplier of a wide range of fiber optic sensors and associated signal conditioners based on proprietary patent and patent-pending technologies.
See: http://www.opsens.com/PDF/OPSENS_Pressrelease_2007-10-17.pdf http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/October2007/17/c4861.html http://www.opsens.com/investors.html#anchor_5 Royzee 08:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Have today added a new clip on Live Video of the Typhoon at Farnborough. Some interesting comments from the test pilot: http://www.livevideo.com/video/27BD498B62764D41954EA5CAA861E404/eurofighter-typhoon-on-airshow.aspx?m_tkc=8088361 Royzee 21:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Identifying which Tiffie has done what: Flight mag said two aircraft from 29 Sqn OCU served as a one-versus-one training flight for an 11 Sqn pilot ahead of the unit's formal establishment at Coningsby. ZJ812, a Tranche 1 Block 2 production aircraft, the "opponent" was using an earlier Block 1 aircraft, ZJ800. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/24/213442/eurofighter-typhoon-special-storm-force-training.html Royzee 14:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Billcj says he "reversion of sourced info". But it's ALL sourced. I have 14 footnotes in 4 paragraphs. There is no part of the article more sourced. However, if there is some statement of fact you doubt, please let me know and I will put in even more references.
NO, I did not use a personal post on a forum web site for a source. I used a magazine article for a magazine that is no longer published, and found TWO copies online for veracity. You can verify this yourself.
Finally, I would like the article locked. I'm tired of sock-puppet games. If you will not lock the article, could we omit all references to stealth whatsoever, as well as any other changes that Mr. sock-puppet wants. The article would at least be peaceful, if not complete. If wikipedia is going to be run by sock-puppets, I'll be happy to spend my time elsewhere. I'm not a newbie (check my contributions) but I'm tired of this.
I call on the admin to settle this.
F-22 reward visibility sacrificed for stealth.
Stealth means the proper suppression of all its important “signatures”—Visual Signature, Radar Signature, Infrared Signature, Electromagnetic Emissions, and Sound.
Visually—The F–22, one of the world’s largest, most identifiable fighters, cannot hide in daylight. Its role is in daylight. Stealth operations are night operations. Unfortunately stealth against radar invariably increases the size of a fighter making it more visible.
The radar signature is utterly inadequately reported. Only a single data number is provided to congressional committees and the GAO—the average radar signature in the level forward direction within 20 degrees of the nose, presumably to enemy fighter radars. In the B-1B reporting fiasco, the 100/1 signature advantage over the B-52 became a real 1.8/1. One cannot design an aircraft to simultaneously hide from low and medium frequency ground radars and from high frequency airborne fighter radars. Properly, all the data should be portrayed and reported—for all azimuths, for all “latitudes,” and for all radar frequencies. Single data points constitute lying by omission and gross incompleteness.
The temperature increases of supersonic cruising flights make the F-22s beacons in the sky to infrared sensors.-- 90.186.189.208 18:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What to do about Stealth
It looks like there are several out there who believe that information about stealthy aspects of this aircraft ought to be included in the article. I agree that information about all unique design aspects of this aircraft ought to be included too - we just need to figure out an unbiased to convey this information. Does anyone object to the use of the title "Signature-reduction features?" It is accurate, to the point, and makes no representations other than that the contents of the section thusly titled detail features which reduce signature. Nicholas SL Smith 04:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"The Eurofighter consortium claims their fighter has a larger sustained subsonic turn rate, sustained supersonic turn rate, and faster acceleration at 0.9 at 20,000 feet than the F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, the Su-27, and the MiG-29" Since when does a marketing claim make it into an encyclopedia? It's not allowed on the F-22 page so wht here? The same goes for Kitplanes stealth additions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philbaaker ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
It`s not only propaganda, 2004 in british airspace in a simulated fight a british Eurofighter shot down two american F-15. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.186.50.33 ( talk) 07:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
On November 1 first Eurofighter Typhoon with Tranche 2 avionics took to the air at BAE Systems' Warton facility. Instrumented Production Aircraft Six (IPA6) completed its maiden flight under the control of Mark Bowman, Eurofighter Typhoon test pilot at BAE Systems.
The press release said that IPA6's first prominent task will be to accomplish Type Acceptance for Block 8, the first capability standard of the second Tranche Typhoon, in April 2008. While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. The first flight of IPA7 is expected before the end of 2007 at the Manching site of EADS, Germany. See: http://www.eurofighter.com/news/20071101_ipa6.asp
Royzee 10:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
At the time of the Dubai Airshow, reports were coming out of BAE Systems Plc saying it was in talks with at least ten countries about selling Eurofighter Typhoon. It includes several possible buyers in the Middle East, Simon Keith, BAE's MD for the region, said in an interview. See: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a6mOay2gxNVE&refer=uk Royzee 13:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
On 12 November 2007 the Eurofighter Typhoon Combined Test Team (CTT), comprising staff from BAE Systems and the Royal Air Force, successfully completed the first mission to drop a laser guided bomb, scoring a direct hit at the Aberporth range. Ref: http://www.eurofighter.com/po_ln.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 16:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Under Eurofighter_Typhoon#Costs_increases, it currently says: "The cost of the Eurofighter project has increased from original estimates. The cost of the UK's aircraft has increased from £7 billion to £19 billion". What I'm wondering is, where does the £7 come from? The three references cited in this section do not mention such a figure - the closest is one source speaking of an increase from about £17b to £19b. Also, further below it says "the Eurofighter programme compare favourably with that of the F-22 (14% over budget[neutrality disputed] and 54 months late versus 127% over budget and 117 months late)". From £7 to £19 would be far more than the claimed 14%, and even more than the 127% it is said to compare favourably to. Anyone has a definitive reference for the cost increase? -- Allefant ( talk) 16:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Towards the end of November BAe Systems announced the receipt of a maintenance contract from the UK MOD for Typhoon. The contract, worth 11.6 mln stg is to provide repair services on certain Typhoon aircraft components. The components in the first incremental package include the nose radome, windscreen and canopy assembly; repairs will be done at RAF Coningsby involving RAF and BAE staff. It is to run to the end of 2014 and is the first in a series of four partnered support contracts for a total value of ca. 227 mln stg. Royzee ( talk) 20:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
A possible order for additionally 24 Eurofighters-- HDP ( talk) 22:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Specific performance parameters such as acceleration and turn rate at a given altitude and speed are not made public. You will not find numbers like that in the public domain for the vast majority of combat aircraft. The claim made by the Eurofighter website that it out turns specific aircraft at M0.9 is very suspect. More so given the fact that the actual numbers are not given and there really is no way for Eurofighter to know them. 70.18.10.6 ( talk) 00:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Theory and opinion has no place here. We report what the references say, and it is inappropriate for an IP editor, or any editor for that matter, to remove material that is cited (in this case, the paragraph has two different citations). As it is abundantly clear that the Wikzilla sock is going to continue putting his personal opinion and personal analysis above the cited refs, and is going to continue to edit war, this page is now s-protected as well. To the IP editor: you clearly have no regard for how we do things around here, and you clearly think that your own opinion is the only correct one, therefore I have no choice but to keep you from edit warring with the rest of the community. If you have a cite that contradicts the existing one, that's a whole different matter, but as it stands now, we have your opinion versus two refs, and you lose. AKRadecki Speaketh 16:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed inconsistency in use of units in one para:
According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[74]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[75] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[76]
IMO it should be metre or metres
and be consistent on use of number or word: 1 or one
Royzee ( talk) 17:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, when this article can again be updated, will somebody add Category:Multiple engine aircraft, and Category:Low wing aircraft ? Thanks in advance. Raymondwinn ( talk) 17:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Dunno if you have seen this but there's a news update on Av Week WS called 'Typhoon Runs Out Of Wind in Denmark and Norway'.
Douglas Barrie says how Eurofighter has 'halted its efforts to try to sell the Typhoon to Denmark and Norway'.
IMHO this is a mistake they will regret.
Royzee ( talk) 07:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read it, but its not as simple as this. The story (in my own words, with no links to sources, since not in english) is that the race looks fixed in advance, so its not a real competition, and if JSF is already chosen by certain politicians, Eurofighter GMBH is just wasting ressources on participation in a run, where the winner is already picked. The danish goverment have been "donating money" for the JSF project, and the requirement for Typhoon and Gripen are much higher than for JSF, read comment from griphen today. This is why Eurofighter group pulled out of the race, they belive they are just wasting their time. In demark, the largest company is the container/oil company Maersk, which has close connections to the US defence department, as logistic partner e.g Iraq, and Terma, the only real danish aerospace company (owned by maersk) support JSF in public several times, because they have been promised buy back orders from the JSF program (both Terma and Maersk). Mearsk have alot to say in Denmark, and eurofighter gmbh may have a valid point, the race does look fixed. --
Financialmodel (
talk)
19:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
According to MTU Aero Engines: Germany's leading engine manufacturer, it has become the first company worldwide to repair a component by patching, hand it over to the customer and obtain EASA approval for the innovative repair technique.
A press release states that in December, 2007, a repaired blisk from a low-pressure turbine of the Eurofighter's EJ200 engine was delivered to the National Quality Assurance Office for aviation equipment. http://www.mtu.de/en/press/actual_news/news1/index.html
Royzee ( talk) 10:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding another story about F-22 vs. Eurofighter i really do think the IAPR story should somehow be included in the article, though perhaps rewritten a bit, so it just refer to the source as internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW and say they claimed "......", in my eyes this should be enough, and all can read, its questionable, but at the same time see that such a thing has been reported, and who it was reported by. [7]
In early 2005, Eurofighter Typhoon made its first transatlantic deployment. Under the 'Exercise High Rider' nickname, the Air Warfare Centre (AWC) conducts routine trials work on the United States western ranges, taking advantage of significant overland airspace, good weather and instrumented range infrastructure to maximise operational test and evaluation output from these facilities.
Exercise High Rider 10 took place at the United States Naval Air Weapons Range China Lake in California. Taking part in the deployment were the Harrier GR7 and Tornado GR4 aircraft of the AWC's Fast Jet and Weapons Operational Evaluation Unit (FJWOEU) based at RAF Coningsby and a Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft from the Typhoon combined test team.
The aircraft was deployed from BAE Systems Warton, crewed by a BAE Systems test pilot and a Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU)17(R) Squadron pilot. BT005, a twin-seat series production aircraft, made the transatlantic crossing with the help of RAF VC10 and Tristar refuelling assets, before conducting an unaccompanied transit across the USA from Bangor Maine to China Lake, stopping to refuel at Little Rock Arkansas and Cannon Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Eurofighter Typhoon began flying again immediately after its arrival undertaking trials work to evaluate the aircraft's weapon system in an operational environment.
Exercise High Rider 10 recovered to the UK at the end of the deployment. [8]
"more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake NAWS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long rate. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .
- When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the converstaion on security grounds"
And..........
"The US Air Force has already begun to take delivery of another superjet, the F-22 Raptor. This is very stealthy but costs twice the price of the Eurofighter, and reports suggest that RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US" [9] .
- Perhaps you have been told that the F-22 is a stealth aircraft, and that this makes the F-22 invisible to radar, so from this you conclude that "AIPR" and "BBC World" must be lying about the Typhoon being able to track the F-22? But it is old news that the Typhoon was meant to be able to track stealth, just read BBC world long before this incident ever happened. On December 22, 1997 BBC world report:
"Eurofighter has the world's most advanced radar for long-range detection and acquisition of targets both in the air and on the ground. Known as the ECR90, it is developed by GEC-Ferranti and will allow pilots to detect and track numerous targets simultaneously and then to fire at enemy aircraft well beyond visual range.
The aircraft is also equipped with an infra-red search and track system which will enable pilots to spot the enemy by detecting minute differences in temperature between the target and its background, making "stealth" aircraft visible.As it is a passive system, it can operate without giving the aircraft's position away to the enemy." [10]
- The F-22 might be shapped to reduce its radar cross-section, but it still use a lot of energy, and what do you think comes out of the back of an F-22 then? Heat? You simply cant hide such consumption of energy, and this is how the Typhoon has always been build to track stealth aircraft, old news.
"The RAF's 17 Sqn OEU has routinely deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate alongside US fighters including the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor. "The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working," says Walker. Asked how the fighters compare, he says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is." BAE Typhoon project test pilot Mark Bowman sees even less of a capability gap. "The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth," he says. "Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better. Upcoming commitments for the UK Typhoon force include involvement in a UK combined qualified weapons instructor course and possible participation in a Red Flag exercise in the USA. "We want to integrate with a multinational package and are always looking for a way to challenge the aircraft and the pilots," says Atha" [11]
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 14:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
More to be checked:
Air Forces Monthly - January 2007" is quoted saying (this one I would like help to be checked, I have only read references to it):
"During the Typhoon's visit to the US in 2005 it was pitted againt the F-22, this was not officially confirmed. The Typhoon could not see the F-22 but could detect that it was being painted by the F-22 and took "appropriate" measures with defensive aids. In one on one combat the Typhoon did the same job as on the Su-30, the F-22 could not handle the Typhoons close in and were shocked. It did not go all the Typhoon's way but the Americans had a sobering encounter, with the F-22 sacrificing much for stealth"
and
Aviation Week & Space Technology - 10/03/2005, page 23:
Unconfirmed reports--that is, rumors-- making the rounds in European aerospace industry circles contend that Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons, temporarily operating from Nellis AFB, Nev., were able to pick up U.S. Air Force F/A-22s on their radars, stealth notwithstanding.
Similar reports appeared during the 1991 Iraq war concerning the ability of British ships, using large radar arrays, to detect the F-117 and, in later conflicts, the B-2. U.S. officials confirm that the Typhoons were at Nellis to fly with the 422nd Test & Evaluation Sqdn.
However, they discount that the Typhoons had seen an F/A-22 in full-configuration stealth.
First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time. Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations"
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 23:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
In short, the Eurofighter Typhoon in USA 2005 on 'Exercise High Rider' was deployed from BAE Systems Warton, crewed by a BAE Systems test pilotand a Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit 17(R) Squadron pilot (its a two seater trainer). Mark Bowman, who said The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth," and "Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better" is a BAE Systems test pilot from BAE Systems Warton. Now perhaps you can understand why Mark Bowman, the Eurofighter testpilot, isnt impressed by the F-22 [12].-- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) This whole effort to insert a non-notable anecdote, sourced or not, smacks of WP:POINT to me. The primary user advocating its inclusion is also complaining of biases in the F-22 Raptor article, and this item is just the kind of thing that would make the article seem pro-Typhoon.
Legitimate questions of the story and facts surrounding it aside, why should this be here? Is every non-combat encounter between fighters notable? What in this encounter sets it apart from the many others that occur every year? Is this the only encounter between a Typhoon and a USAF (or any onter nation's AF) fighter aircraft? Where the pilots involved notable in some way? Does this really belong in "Operational history", or even any other section of an aircraft article other than trivia? What does it prove, especially as no attempt to provide the Eagle pilots' perspective has even been made? Was the encounter part of some organized training or adversary activity, such as Red FLag, which might possible confer notability? I'm sure there are other questions that could be asked regarding notability, but I trust that these are enough to make my point to the more-experienced editors here.
Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia. We don't have to publish every minor encounter just because it was reported somewhere. If such info is in the F-22 article, it should be removed also, if it is just as non-notable. If it's notability can be asserted by reliable sources, then include it. But at this point, the brief anecdote reported in the newspaper fails that test. - BillCJ ( talk) 20:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes this is an encyclopedia about the Eurofighter, as if noone here knew, and people come here to read about the Eurofigter. This is not an article about the "battle of trafalgar", where the history books are already written, this is an article about a brand new fighter, and its history is developing as we speak. Sure we write about the historic cost, development history, and so on, but unlike old encyclopedia's, where the information was never updated when new information appeared, an online encyclopedia as WIKI should be updated when new information about the relevant topic appear. And this is what has happened. National newspapers report the Typhoon was chased by two F-15's, but managed to outmanouvre them and get a lock on them instead. Would readers be interested in such an "historic" event? I beleive they would, and added this source to this article, but it was deleted by 2 persons here, an IP, which is from New York, USA, and by Fnlayson, a mechanical engineer working in the US aerospace industry in Huntsville, AL, USA. Is it a coincidence, that it happens to be Americans that repeatedly deleted an added source from a European national newspaper? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it seems we have a patern here. Also we have several sources that reported that the Typhoon have done well against the F-22, which is regarded the top US fighter. Is this relevant and should this be included in an article about the Typhoon? Again i think it would be relevant, but again some argue its not relevant and should be deleted/removed from here. What are their arguments?
The IP from NY, USA says: "I will revert it since this has all been discussed before and is nothing more than rumor". So no matter how many sources report on this, he refuse to beleive the Typhoon was ever in USA, and that the Typhoon could ever have had a lock on the F-22, and he says he will revert it. In short, he says Eurofighter GmbH, AIPR, BBC World, Flight International, cannot be used as sources, and no matter what he will revert it. In short a veto by an IP. Now that a lot of power for an IP, why did i ever bother to register?
BillCJ see the sources, but he respond: "Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia", as if this is too new information, because it comes from "a newspaper or aviation magazine"? I'm sure BillCJ dont want this to be added, but his arguments are not rational to me. Again we all know this is an "encyclopedia", but this is an "online encyclopedia", that unlike old printed versions, allow us to keep an article up to date, as new information about a topic appear. Will new relevant information about the Typhoon appear in "a newspaper or aviation magazine" in the future? I think so, but BillCJ imply newspapers, whether national or local, and "aviation magazine" are not sources good enough for wiki, with the repeated argument "Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia". OK, if this is how WIKI works, I hereby stop my arguments and I will make it my job to look thrugh all WIKI articles and remove all sources from newspapers and magazines, just like BillCJ is doing here. It looks like we have a "clean up" job in front of us, but "luckily its always soo much easier to delete than to add new sources to an article. Thank you my 3 American friends, BillCJ, the IP, and Fnlayson for pointing this out -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Forget it, refer to Fork, POV etc., and do what you want. I thought Wikipedia was an encyclopedia that was keept up to date. I know now its a popularity contest, where you just delete what you dont want to read, or where you vote if 2+2=4 or 2+2=5. Lesson learnt, dont do research on a topic and waste your time presenting it on something like Wiki. What you see here is patriotic vandalism by American users, and whether registred or not, the result is the same, censorship of all sources that inform Eurofighter have done well against the F-15 and even the top US fighter, the F-22 -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has a lot about the history of the typhoon project, a lot about export, but almost nothing about the real plane and its capabilities, and "fighter history" - If material is added to descripe such, its deleted within seconds. The job should be to improve and expand the article, and not to throw personal vetoes and delete want you dont want to read. Make suggestions on how to improve it instead of deleting it. Anyone can delete, but how many of you can add to this article and improve it? Fell free to suggest other ways to present it, but dont just disregard what several sources report on, simply because you dont like the "message". -- Financialmodel ( talk) 01:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
87.166.114.98 ( talk) 13:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
How can PIRATE still not be descriped in this article....? There is a huge lag in this article about the Typhoons radars, weapons, defence systems, and how these systems are to be used in combat. The Radars might be shortly descriped, but there is nothing about the Typhoons infrared systems designed to track stealth aircrafts.
Short description (but looking for better sources, to refer to):
The Typhoon will now be equipped with “Pirate”, a passive, infrared search and track system made by a consortium of companies led by Galileo Avionica, a Finmeccanica company. The Pirate (Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment) combines the functions of the FLIR infra-red system (Forward Looking Infra-Red) and of the IRST system (Infra Red Search and Track), able to search, detect and track potential targets. The system operates in a passive mode, without emitting signals which might reveal the aircraft’s presence.
From Thales [13]:
PIRATE gives a passive IRST capability to the Typhoon weapon system for the detection and tracking of air and surface targets as well as providing FLIR imagery for low level flight and navigation during all weather, day or night operations. The PIRATE hardware is housed in a compact single line replaceable unit containing the optical system and signal processing assemblies. This state of the art system gives Eurofighter Typhoon unrivalled IRST capabilities.
PIRATE complements the aircraft's active sensors and data link systems providing greatly enhanced and vital battlespace situational awareness for the Typhoon crew. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 01:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Who added this part under "Radar signature reduction features":
"Although these measures reduce the radar cross section of the Typhoon, the Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft. For example, the Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[73] The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[74]"
- Who ever wrote this probably didnt even know about PIRATE, a passive seach and track system........the quality of this is soo low!-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
-the headline for this part in the article should be "Sensors", and it should include a detaild description of:
- this article is a mess and require a "clean up", PIRATE has now been added as a random headline, and CAESAR and Captor is descriped under "testing" - the headlind should be "sensors". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Article has nothing about its weapons? Find sources this should b included also in article, her is a fast quote to see what should be refered to: [14]
Depending on role, the fighter can carry the following mix of missiles:
- Air-superiority - six BVRAAM (Beyond Visual Range)/AMRAAM air-to-air missiles on semi-recessed fuselage stations and two ASRAAM short-range air-to-air missiles on the outer pylons
- Air interdiction - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two cruise missiles and two Anti-Radar Missiles (ARM)
- SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-radar missiles
- Multi-role - three AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two ARM and two GBU-24 Paveway III/IV
- Close air support - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, 18 Brimstone anti-armour missiles
- Maritime attack - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-ship missiles
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok there is a short description in "armament" in the end, but not detailed enough, it should provide information on what armament it can carry depending on its role. The Typhoon can carry a a lot of different weapons at the same time depending on what role its used in, but its not meanioned in armament as it is now, there is only a short list of what weapons fit. When you add something like this to the article:
The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[76] According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[77]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[78] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[79]
....you mention Typhoon carrying external stores increase RCS, and you point is its not a stealth aircraft, but there is no mention of the trade off with stealth and manoeuvrability. If you go for stealth you need a certain shape, and to assume this optimal stealth shape is the same as the optimal shape for manoeuvrability is wrong. The Typhoon was build to focus on manoeuvrability at high speeds, and not stealth as such, though moves have been made to reduce RCS. Because the focus of Typhoon is manoeuvrability and not stealth the Typhoon dont need internal stores, which limits the weapon supply, because of limited room in internal stores. And also its not all weapons that can be used in internal stores. Such details are not mention, the article focus on the problems with "no stealth" of the Typhoon and the fact that expternal weapons increase RCS. There is no mention of the gains from the Typhoon design, which is more weapons, both in quantity and and the different kind of missiles that can be used. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 23:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
From this ref: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030428/text/30428w15.htm talk of Main Gate (which I put in) is an anachronism, since the process has only existed since 1999: "Mr. Ingram: The Initial and Main Gate approval process has only been in operation within the Ministry of Defence since April 1999, having been introduced as one element of implementation of the Smart Procurement Initiative". Btw "Smart Procurement" - great tag line. Springnuts ( talk) 09:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
:I have restored the £7 billion, having found an additional source from a Hansard 1989 debate (so no typing error). As I recall at that stage there were just headline figures bandied about - but I realise my recollection is not a "verifiable source"!!
Springnuts (
talk)
00:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Could all parties take a long deep breath and follow "cool" dictums. Now that there have been a series of reverts in a 24-hour period, the article will be "locked" in order to prevent a WP:Fork tussle. FWIW Bzuk ( talk) 02:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC).
Fell free to improve it, but stop deleting sourced material. Everyone can delete articles like you, but how many can improve it? So easy to delete, but noone want to spend time adding new material and find different sources. This article contain almost no information, except some history about the project itself, and some export info, but its no wonder, with all the deletion we see here. It's clearly patriotic vandalism, and its in no interest for this article. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 02:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You havent found one single source questioning AIPR? It's your personal believs that stands in the way, and makes you call an airforce magazine like AIPR biased? This is a higly detailed magazine held by several air forces around the world, and its 45 page story about the Typhoon, is the best out there i have read soo far. Read IAPR before you start bashing it as a source and please link to all former discussions here on wiki about IAPR, and i shall read your argurments there. This is much more than IAPR reporting on this also BBS World, and flight global tells you straight out, with live sources that Typhoon and the F-22 does fly together, and yet you continue to claim this never happened and delete it. This article it fullof mooderators who dont care about this plane can do, but care more about trying to edit the price, and make it look bad compared to other certain planes, its quite obvious:
The RCS of the typhoon is one of the smallest out there, but it is not meant to be a stealth aircraft, beucase a such shape conflict with the shape needed for manoeuvrability, and this is not told i a fair manner, instead of this, this article, article start up by mentioning not stealth, not stealth, craby radars, low RCS, but weapons raise it, so no wonder noone could ever believe the Typhoon could ever track the F-22, you guess failed to mention even basic infrared weapons on the Typhoon, because you care more about deleting material than adding:
Although not a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect.[69][70] An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. The mean straight areas, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector.[71] Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves[72]. In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc.[73][74]
Although these measures reduce the radar cross section of the Typhoon, the Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft. For example, the Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[75] The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[76]
According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[77]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[78] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[79]
- If i am not mistaken this quote included a comparison to the F-22 also last night? IN sort, this article ave soo litle about the Typhoon except some project history and export history, you should focus on adding materail, instead of deleing what others write. 3 Americans, and 1 even in the US aerospace industry, are clearly against this - can Wiki check what contries mooderaters are from, because it seems to be highly relevant here, whether you face it or not. Before we can have a real discussion i would also like to know where Bzuk and Downtrip are from, USA/Europe or other place? I am from Europe, a country here not even related to the Typhoon -- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
If you wanted a real discussion about it downtrip you had copied what you deleted to here, instead of just removing it so nobody can see it:
In 2006 the aerospace/air force magazine "internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" [6] (IAPR) reported two RAF typhoons had been deployed to USA for OEU trials (Operational Evaluation Unit), and that these Typhoons had been flying against the F-22 at NAS China lake ( NAWS China Lake). The magazine reported the Eurofigter Typhoon had performed better than was expected against the US top stealth fighter, the F-22. The magazine wrote that it was no surprise the Typhoon had dominated "Within Visual Range" flight, but the Typhoon had surprised by getting a radar lock on the F-22 at a surprisingly long rate. According to IAPR the F-22’s cried off, claiming they were “unstealthed”, and after this the USAF cancelled the next day’s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagements (Beyond Visual Range).
This report has created a lot of controversy. Critics claim the Typhoon have never been near the F-22’s, but before this, on 27 September 2005, Eurofighter GmbH reported that the Typhoons had made their first transatlantic deployment in 2005, as part of 'Exercise High Rider' [7]. Eurofighter GmbH wrote: "Exercise High Rider 10 took place at the United States Naval Air Weapons Range China Lake in California", which is where IAPR said the engagements had taken place.
On 18 August 2006, the BBC NEWS reported: reports suggest that RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US" [8], but critics claim BBC World just repeats the AIPR source, which they see as a lie in the first place.
Critics argue there is no way the Typhoons could have been able to track the F-22’s in the first place, since the F-22's have been shaped to reduce their radar cross-section, but such problems have already been described by BBC World on December 22 1997:
“The aircraft is also equipped with an infra-red search and track system ( IRST) which will enable pilots to spot the enemy by detecting minute differences in temperature between the target and its background, making " stealth" aircraft visible. [9]
Hardcore critics still argue whether the engagements between the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-22 have ever happened, but on 24 April 2007 Flightglobal ( Flight International) also reported that RAF’s 17 Sqn OEU routinely has deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate along US fighters including the F-22 [10]. Air Vice Marshal David Walker, air officer commanding 1 Group, which oversees operations of the RAF's strike aircraft fleets, said: “The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working". Asked how the fighters compare, walker says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is”. And to this BAE Typhoon project test pilot Mark Bowman said: "The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth, Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs) 15:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- It not just reported, though this would be easy with all the sources, instead headline says "controversial", to please the Americans wiki moderators here, though you seem to have no sources to contradict it? Perhaps the official USAF note to the press, saying this never happened? BBC World reported it, but also here it says critics argue its the same report as IAPR, or from IAPR, eventhough i there are no such claims from other than american wiki users here? Have the Typhoon trained with the F-22, yes, you have a direct quote from Air Vice Marshal David Walker, and you know,yes 2 typhoons and 30 personel have been in the US to train with the F-22. Where are the links to former debates on IAPR, because im sure i have seen alot wiki socalled mooderators, saying there isnt even a source this ever took place, well there is now. There is no real arguments for why this should not be included, instead of silly claims from 3 Americans and 2 moods, whose origin is unknow for now, but common for them all is the patriotic vandalism against this article. Unless i see real sources, contradicting all these sources, instead of these silly claims from patriotic Ameirican wiki users, this will be put into article very soon again. 2 years since it was first reported, and yet still not even mentioned here, but just deleted again and again, and put to sleep with a "we need to agreee on this talk", though we all know, there will be no agreement. Stop this patriotec vandalism and the lock on debate afterwards, when you cant even find one single source that contradict these sources, except yourself. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is well reseached, presented in a way so you can see its still a controversial subject for some, several respected sources have reported on it, i fail to see any sources from any of you here that discredit these sources, except you own personal beleive that it never happened. I have read many of you former discussions with regards to this, and its all about, you doubting on BBC world and IAPR, Flight Global report two typhoons and 30 personal train with F-22, something American wiki-users have said they didnt belive all along. Find me sources to disprove these sources, and not just your own personal believe, and we can add these also, but stop deliting these sources and put a lock on this info, by refering to we have to agree. This is 2 years ago now, and your vandalism with deletion and then refering to disscussion on talk, is clarly a way to put a lock on this, and make sure it will never be descriped which have workedout wll foryou in 2 years now. You have never provided any sources that says this never happened, except you own personal believes. Its patriotic vandalism, and it should stop sooner than later. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Bzuk said: "I realize you have joined this forum relatively recently" - I have read this for long time without joining the debate, but i have seen how a little group seem to think they have a monopoly on what should be here and what not. One can only wonder why you seem to care so much more about deleting material, than to add new. Again i fail to understand how this article can include such statements as these: "The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars", and yet nothing on the Typhoons infra red seach and track systems, which is one of the most advanced in the world. Try to focus on adding material than to continue your patriotic vandalism on this article. Find sources that contradict/discredit the above used sources as BBC world, IAPR, Fligt Global if you can, but stop deleting, simply because you as a person fail to/wont believe it. It's patriotic vandalism, and it has been here on this article for 2 years now, with noone commenting on it. Your modus operandi is to to delete it and then lock topic with a discussion you know will never produce an outcome, but this patriotic vandalism stops here-- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Who made this change to source?, its a direct change of what was written in the source, article now says:
This is not what IAPR wrote, which admin/wiki user changed this very important statement from distance to time? IAPR wrote:
That just another example of this patriotc vandalism we continue to see here, even when article is under observation. You cant delete the information now so instead, you will change statements from "radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long rate", to "radar lock for a surprisingly long period of time", why, because a radar lock on the F-22 on a long range would question the whole stealh principle of the F-22, which is now refered to as the invisible fighter you cant kill, because you cant kill what you cant see. No plane is suposed to get a radar lock on the top US stealth fighter at a long rate. Modus operandi here is to delete such information and refer to a common agreement, which will never happen, with the result of a succesfull deletion of sources and lock of discussion. This has been happening for 2 years, and it's patrotic vandalism in action as we speak. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 19:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
A content dispute has arisen as to whether to include details of alledged meetings between Eurofighter Typhoon & U.S. fighters - An Edit war has developed with attempts to get consensus on talk page failing, with one editor alleging US bias. Nigel Ish ( talk) 17:43, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've protected the page. I have to read over the discussion page and check the page history to figure out what's going on, but for now everyone will have to keep their edits limited to this page. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 18:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Fine. In summary:
Comment on Downtrip continued bias. The sources are clear, and there are several now. Downtrip cant find any sources that question these sources, except his own personal believe. In point two above he try to attack BBC, again questioning their statements, but again he fail to do so, he claim they must be lying, read:
But this is just another example of how Downtrip personal belief with no sources to question sources as BBC etc. bring him on thin ice. As is the overall conflict here, he delete valid sources, because he use his own personal opinion. He just claimed BBC was wrong again, because he belive there was no IRST for the Typhoon when this was reported, but as I shall shoow here, the Eurofighter had IRST already in 2005, read EADS, Munich 16 November 2005:
During a visit to the Manching facility of EADS Military Aircraft on 7th and 8th November, Major General Klaus L. Axelsen, Chief of the Royal Danish Air Force Air Materiel Command (AMC), and National Armament Director, flew the Eurofighter in a scheduled flight test sortie in which he experienced the overall capabilities of the aircraft. In particular, he participated in very demanding flight control system tests of the automatic recovery system and the Infra Red Search and Track system (IRST). IRST forms an important part of the overall integrated system suite of sensors within the Eurofighter Weapon System. In addition, as a demonstration of the Eurofighter’s superb handling capabilities and a significant achievement on his first flight, the General flew the aircraft throughout the entire mission, including the landing. Danish National Armament Director flight-tested the Eurofighter
.....the reasons for deletions are false claims and personal beliefs (with no sources to back it up) used in arguments by these F-22 patriots, as Downtrip just showed you here. He attack sources on personal beliefs and false claims, and from this he remove valid sources. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Facts are this is reported by valid sources, IAPR, BBC world, Flight international, soo far these patriotic vandals have not been able to present any sources that counter the statements from BBC World, IAPR and Flight International. Based on personal beliefs these sources have been deleted by a lot American wiki users for over a period of 2 years now, and then locked out with the argument such sources as BBC World and IAPR and Flight International required consensus. One needs just to look in the current version to watch this patriotic vandlism in action. Now that it cant be deleted, vandalism is made on the statement itself, which bothers these patriots, and is the reason for this patriotic vandalism. Read how current version have been changed from:
to
Why is this soo important for the vandals? Because a radar lock on the F-22 on a long range would question the whole stealh principle of the F-22, which is now refered to as the invisible fighter you cant kill, because you cant kill what you cant see. No plane is suposed to get a radar lock on the top US stealth fighter at a long rate. Modus operandi here is to delete such information and refer to a common agreement, which will never happen, with the result of a succesfull deletion of sources and lock of discussion. This has been happening for 2 years, and it's patrotic vandalism in action as we speak. Wiki should stop such patriotic vandalism. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 20:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a conflicted section also, and it's locked right now, why?
Because the whole principle of " X generation" for fighter jets, is a marketing tool, made up by Lockheed Martin, a US aerospace company. There is no such thing as "X generation fighter", its a meassure defined for marketing campains by Lockheed Martin, so you can make claims as such:
"The JSF is one of only two fifth generation aircraft. The other is the F-22 Raptor. Both aircraft are built by the US-based Lockheed Martin company." [21]
Just take a look at the page Downtrip refer to, and watch how the game is to brand the Typhoon as a 4 or 4,5 generation fighter", while F-22 and JSF will be branded as only fifth generation aircrafts. The fact that wiki even buy into this whole marketing trick, and let the patriots establish their own marketing playground, is questional in itself. It's spin, and wiki is taken hostage in this patiotic campain. Provide sources that counter the mentioned sources provided here, as BBC world, International Air Power Review (IAPR) or Flight International, if you you can, but soo far the so called "critics" of these sources seem to exist only as American user here on wiki. Stop this patriotic vandalism now, its not in the interest of wiki. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 20:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
to
- that the work of a vandal in action. Find out who made this edit, before it was now completly removed, and you have a vandal right there caught red handed-- Financialmodel ( talk) 21:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
FWIW Bzuk ( talk) 22:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC).
Bzuk said on that page: The reason for the query to an admin board was that the pattern of discussion resembles that of a former banned editor, (Wikizilla) who has appeared on the talk page and article previously with sock/meat puppets. How can that possibility be determined/eliminated? FWIW Bzuk (talk) 14:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC).
So now you try to ban me Bzuk, by linking me to someone who also complained over you patriotic vandalism? I wonder how you managed to have him banned? Same style? Your modus operandi is shamefull, you talk about how you can't question users origin, since you claim these are personal attacks, and yet you imply I am a former banned user, that should be banned. This is not even er personal attack, this is games with tricks so low i wonder how you can even watch yourself in the mirror talk 23:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Also this should be relevant if one wants to get a clear overview of the situation, though it will require quite some reading: Disputed cost and aversion to criticism. The same F-22 wiki editors behind the removal of these sources as BBC world, international Airpower Rewiew, and Flight Global, that report on tests between the Typhoon and F-22, also refuse valid sources from US Congress, regarding the cost of the F-22 project in that article, and the same editors dont find criticism nessesary, though such is to find from many corners. When will the such patriotic vandalism be questioned?-- Financialmodel ( talk) 21:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
avweek_20070107_ul
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).avweek_20070107_ag
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I am protesting in the strongest terms the dictating of what can and cannot be in this article by a user who does not even bother to join the community. the WP:AIR Page Content guidelines give a clear definition of what is considered "comparable", but this is continually ignored. The definition: Comparable aircraft: are those of similar role, era, and capability to this one. This will always be somewhat subjective, of course, but try to keep this as tight as possible. Again, some aircraft will be one-of-a-kind and this line will be inappropriate. It does not say "equal" or "identical", but "similar".
Similarities:
Differences:
In addition, most of the differences are of degree, not substance. I genuinely do not see how they cannot be considered "comparable" by WP:AIR's definition of the term.
Getting this page protected obviously did not help the matter, nor did simply waiting the user out. I DO NOT accept that a consensus was reached previously, just that the user was unable to edit the article, and the issue died down. How can we compromise? Put in "F-2"? It's either in or out - there is no apparent middle ground. I don't know if IPs are eligible for Arbitration or not, but that seems to be the only solution left here, as no one seems inclined to enforce 3RR on IPs. - BillCJ 16:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, he certainly isn't interpreting the consensus that way! And do you mean "warring" or "warning" (just not sure in context). - BillCJ 16:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I just wasn't sure of your meaning, and wanted to make sure. - BillCJ 17:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Will this work?
If having listed is a POV, and not having it listed is POV, then having it in, but struck out, must be NPOV! I don't see any other way to do it! - BillCJ 17:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
What kind of stealth features does the Typhoon have? -- Eurocopter tigre 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.
Royzee ( talk) 21:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate on comparability of the Typhoon and F-22 suggests the need to define "comparable." Part of the difficulty in this debate is that there are exactly two definitions of the word:
It would seem that the intent of the section "Comparable aircraft" is to list aircraft that are similar. You wouldn't expect to see P-51 or T-33 in this section because they are too dissimilar. On the other hand, it seems obvious that the F-18 should be in the list because there are strong similarities between it and the Typhoon (both are strike fighters with STOL capabilities and similar performance). The F-22. on the other hand is a fifth generation air superiority fighter with stealth capabilities. These are fundamentally different roles. Consider what the article says about the comparison between the Typhoon and the F-22:
I think that John Jumper is in a position to judge and he says that the Typhoon and the F-22 are very different. Sunray 20:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Take a moment and look at the user changes log for the 2 individuals the edit war. The first editor is an "IP", new to the community and trying in good faith to add to the article. He is guilty of standing his ground when his edits are reverted. The second editor has been around for a while. He has the ability to create positive input and has some real expertise in the field. This second editor however has a long track record of:
To me, it is clear. To those with open minds, please run the logs, look at the "positive comments" he has to others that are attempting to improve the project but cross his path. To those that are in his club, I have no doubt I will be attacked, or more likely edited out. To all, please step back, look at the big picture, and do the right thing. 68.245.237.240 23:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a word: I agree that it makes sense to differentiate between 4th and 5th generation aircraft when the ability of stealth emerged and influenced design decisions. I agree also that it is therefore correct to label the Raptor as 5th generation aircraft and the Typhoon as 4.5th generation aircraft to point out the air superiority and technological advance compared to 4th generation fighters but attaching much less importance on stealth design.
But ranking a fighter in another generation does say nothing about its outcome in the competition with others fighters. It is the design decision in the neverending attempt to find the best compromise of avionics, performance, speed, load, stealthiness, price etc. which will finally have the last word in combat !
When the carrier was invented, it was clear that it had no chance against a battleship. But battleships were so helpless against dive bombers and torpedo planes that their sea superiority was futile. The German Tiger was in contrast (fully operational) definitely better than the T-34/76, but the Tiger's chassis, its mechanical fragility and price was no match against the superior numbers of the T-34 with a good, easy and robust design.
As the discussion mostly concentrates on the differences between Typhoon and Raptor I would like to ask the opponents of "Typhoon comparable with Raptor": Is the MiG-15 comparable with the F-86 ? The MiG-15 has better performance abilities: wing loading, thrust ratio and climb rate and a heavy punch (23 and 37 mm). The F-86 has better armor, its tail gate and its radar range-sight together with more and lighter guns. The designers obviously designed different aircrafts (as the pilot of both Typhoon and Raptor said: It is like NASCAR vs Formula One). If the MiG-15 and the F-86 *is* not comparable, they shouldn't be mentioned as comparable together. If they are comparable, tell me the difference between Typhoon/Raptor and MiG-15/F-86.
What I really would like to know is how the fighters would compare in a show fight. 136.172.253.189 00:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I am the user changing the AC types. None of the reasons above hold water. In fact the F-18E/F is of a newer design than the EF. The F-18E/F is pretty much a clean sheet design developed in the 90-95 timeframe. This is newer than the EF which is basically a 80s design that has finally overcome teething problems and is entering production. The F-18 designation was merely a way to get around congress' reluctance to fund three new fighters.
This brings me to the second point. The EF is not a game changer like the F-22. In fact most of the advanced features like LPI radar will not even be fielded until at least 2012. All of the AC I mentioned in various blocks have the same if not better electronics and fire control. EFs claim to LO and Super cruise are marginal at best. All AC mentioned have supersonic dash capability in military power as does the EF. The EF merely goes a bit faster. It is not however true super cruise where the speed difference, the length of time able to do it and the wide altitude band where it can do it makes it tactically significant like the Raptor's capability. This is pure marketing hype on the part of the EF consortium.
Lastly as for AC compared. There is no comparison between EF and Raptor. Do some research that does not involve BAE. Consider the true known capabilites and that becomes clear. DERA is misleading. It is old, funded by an interested party and does not take into account many of the advanced weapons and sensors flying on the other AC today.
I would also suggest that this has all been gone over in the past in the archived comments and the "consensus" then was that the Typhoon and Raptor are not comparable. So the question becomes is Wiki like a Banana Republic where we keep voting until we get the "consensus" we want or is Wiki about facts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.84.181.81 ( talk)
Please let's get rid of the comparable aircraft section. Way too much time is being spent "discussing" it. It's way too subjective anyway. For example this whole debate is about the F-22. But why is the Gripen listed as comparable? Not much short of half the MTOW of the Typhoon, one engine (itself less powerful than just one EJ200), almost half the range and considerably lower ceiling. etc. etc. Similar holes can be picked in almost any other "comparison". About the only aircraft that really belongs in such a list is the Rafale - similar performance, developed concurrently (almost), similar config. Mark83 20:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Good idea Mark83 I would support it, it is only a guide for readers to have other aircraft to compare against, most would not notice it missing. I suspect if any consensus on what should be on the list is ever agreed it would not last for long. Remove it and lets get on with producing a better encyclopedia. MilborneOne 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This is fine with me. Comparisons will probably be added to the text by folks. But that will be easier to police. Make them provide a reference as we should. Removing field from template may be an option as well. - Fnlayson 21:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with this. Maybe leaving the Rafale as the only comparable aircraft should be ok, but it is better now without that section. -- Eurocopter tigre 21:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Well that was simple in the end!! Yeah, I personally think the Rafale should be referred to as a comparable aircraft - but then maybe that's well established already and could well just open the flood gates again? Sure we could agree here to JUST list the Rafale, but we would be reverting additions for ever more. Mark83 22:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
"Please let's get rid of the comparable aircraft section."
- and now it has just been moved to the "performance section" instead - 90% of this is USAF statements comparing the F-22 with the Typhoon. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 14:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Unless you want to start a new "comparison section" under the tittle "performance", it dont belong there Mark83....and the quote you used it a lot of different quotes put into one quote also, the USAF source you refer to dont have that quote you had put together.-- Financialmodel ( talk) 18:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed by anon. with the edit summary "Removed bullshit signed your Friendly Neighnorhood Bullshit Remover". The edit summary language used is unhelpful, however the section is extremely dubious. No mention has been made of this "incident" in Flight International, AWST et. al. Mark83 13:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The citation is dubious and this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. For starters, sources should be linked to someone who would know firdt hand about the event. For instance "Commander such and such of the 117th squadron states ........." The RAF states...... Your source has none of that. Is not coroborated in any other reputable source such as AV Week, and deals with a subject that is highly open to debate such as if it occurred, what where the circumstances that they occurred. I will give you one such hint, they usually sqwack on their transponders so the FAA doesn't route a commercial jet their way. Reports of exercises should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you insist I will add a few with proper notation so you can see how it's done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.3.196 ( talk) 16:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Try these citations. Note people who where there are quoted. Note corroboration. In early 2006, after an exercise involving just eight F-22s in Nevada in Nov. 2005, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley AFB, Virginia, commented "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss. They didn't see us at all." [2]
In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 5 to 1 at times. [3] [4] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%. [5]
Read what he is saying. Of course it's not about the Raptor however the citations from the Raptor article illustrate what a good believable source is. The observations are corroborated and they are first hand accounts from quotable sources. IOW, names are named. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.225.146 ( talk) 00:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- "International Air Power" is an air force magazine in paperversion, and vol. 20 does say the Typhoon beat the F-22. Anyone interested in info about the Typhoon should be permitted to read about this, or at least be given the source on where to read the full info, but instead it seems F-22 fans are allowed to censor this information in this article, just beacuse USAF didnt officially confirm the F-22 lost to the Typhoon. -- Financialmodel 21:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The USAF and lockeed martin will probably support this view, as most Americans (what are you), but to censor the source just because you dont like it or you dont have a 5 star US general saying the Typhoon beat the F-22 is biased. Say what was stated, and that the event is not officially confirmed by USAF, but that a few other sources like BBC have mentioned the event briefly. This trail-result is important information, and just because you didnt watch it live in telly dosent mean you should censor all statements about the event. "internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" is a respected airfoce magazine hold by several airforces.-- Financialmodel 12:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
BillCJ said: "The info is basically useless becasue it gives no other info on the "contest", such as the conditions of the aircraft, or even the relative skills of the pilots." - useless because no conditions of the aircraft? When the F-22 article claims the F-22 shot down God knows how many F-15 with no loss, are you given any info about the conditions of the aircraft here? And "the relative skills of the pilots", who are you kidding, what do you want? Did you see a list on the relative skills of the pilots from that story of the f-22 beat XXX f-15 in the F-22 article? This aint a computergame with highscores. Perhaps I should go delete all such claims in the F-22 article based on your criteria here?-- Financialmodel 12:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
See above. The claims in the F-22 article have been corroborated and attributed to named sources. 12.164.252.102 14:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel 17:03, 19 September 2007- start: This non-user from USA saying International Air Power Review is NOT a reliable source must be specific for which reason this is. I will bet you that even your country's airforce subscribe to International Air Power Review, just because (what is probably) a US raptor fan dont like the story out there, its simply to easy just to name the source as un-reliable, this is simply not true. I do challenge you to contact your national airforce and check if their library dont subscripe to this source. As for BillCJ i have seen him on the f-22 article that is a very biased article about the F-22 and more sounds like a fan-club wrote it than anything else. His reason here for not including the info as a source of reference is completly ridiculous, BillCJ said: "The info is basically useless becasue it gives no other info on the "contest", such as the conditions of the aircraft, or even the relative skills of the pilots." -listen to it, he dont want the info out there on what is probably one of the most debated topics of all, because "the relative skills of the pilots" is unknown, again i challenge him to find this from any source provided on the F-22 test's vs. other US fighers, this is what is included in the F-22 artile tat BillCJ supervise:
In early 2006, after an exercise involving just eight F-22s in Nevada in Nov. 2005, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley AFB, Virginia, commented "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss. They didn't see us at all."[33]"In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 5 to 1 at times.[21][34] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%.[30]"
- now BillCJ where is "the relative skills of the pilots" shown here? What is the conditions of these aircrafts? Why havent you deleted this from your F-22 article? My guess is that you are one of the persons behind the clear bias of the F-22 article and the fact that you refuse to even mention an incident between the Typhoon and the F-22 (in both articles) dosent seem reasonable. This incident is desciped by both International Air Power Review and BBC world among others and backed up by the fact that Eurofighter was sceduled to be at that location from the official site. When you add in the pictures of the F-22 and Typhoon together from the reported location also, i simply fail to see a reason for the censorship of the test-results between the Typhoon and the F-22, at least it should be said that these sources report the Typhoon have flown highly succesfull "missions" against the f-22-- Financialmodel 17:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok I am the IP who added the content - and caused the discussion. Honestly I find it disturbing that the IAPR as a source can deliberately be left out with reasons that don't hold up against other sources allowed. Also leaving out the comparison section is a way to treat a patient... surgery successfull... patient dead. The comparison section was the most interesting one - leaving it out takes a major element out. ALSO why not LEAVING the report in - UNTIL it is proven to be wrong - and if it is then take it out. Instead it seems to me that there is a clear intent of eliminating that encounter. Anyone know how to use the tracking changes feature here on wikipedia - which recently exposed companies behind the edits. I wouldn't be surprised if the people deliberately keeping all information that's somewhat negative for the F22 - would be linked to some interest groups. Oh and feel free to track my ip - I am in the US by no ways biased in any way. I am an enthusiast who loves reading comparisons. It's a shame that wikipedia allows this to happen. The arguments given for the removal are simply not worthy a Wikipedia editor - I'd have expected a more logical approach. Then one more thing: One has to look at the context here. When entering F22 or eurofighter the wikipedia articles pop up as number 2 -3 on google. Each airplane costs millions of dollars - or billions when looking at contracts. The recent typhoon saudi deal is worth 75 billion. Here is what really happened to my opinion: The meeting took place, but once the results were made public, ANYTHING will be done from the US Side to suppress it, discredit it or mention it has ever happened. You likely won't find any USA military person who will confirm anything - their carreer would be over BIG TIME. In fact I think it would probably make sense from a manufacturers point of view to spend some $ and make sure that the number 2-3 spots on the web don't mention this incident - or even hint towards it. After all it would be disastrous if an army spends twice as much $ on a plane that might not be superior. At the end its economic interest... but I think it's wrong to have Wikipedia be ruled by those interests and allow to have these edits continue. The source is a respected print publication - I highly doubt that a wikipedia admin has more knowledge/clout then a print magazine subscribed to by probably all airforces in this world!!
So let's face it - these 2 entries F22 / Typhoon are absolutely crucial and can win/lose millions for the countries economies. Looking at the discussions going on - It's hard to not notice the bias towards the raptor... (since we can't change the person doing these edits opinion or hidden interests) however it quite honestly simply means that the Europeans don't quite have their sh?t together or better lobbying/PR muscle as the F22 fraction does....
Further, the EF consortium certainly has their PR "sh?t" together, but it's not targeted on the Raptor, they are trying to hype the EF in order to "steal" JSF sales. It's not about the magazine, it's about how the magazine reported it and the fact that there is nothing or no one who will attach their name to the rumor. You would think the British pilot has nothing to loose on this one. Why the silence from the British? 162.83.253.25 01:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
If you want the truth just write to the Eurofighter-companies... they'll provide you more details then you can swallow - if you wanna open that can of worms... unsigned - 76.102.190.6 17:43, 24 September 2007
SOMEONE MENTIONED THAT there is absolutely no accreditation anywhere for the story as published by the Magazine. Well GUESS WHAT I FOUND ONE. Here is a link to a forum where a guy mentioned he saw 2 typhoons at the NAS China Lake - that POST IS EXACTLY from the time period when the article stated the comparison happened....the post is from back in 2005 so prior to all this discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/94610606/m/2601031603
Here is what Jewels_201 wrote in the forum: Jewels_201 Posted Sat April 09 2005 21:09 Hide Post Two Typhoons were at NAS China Lake several weeks ago. One 1-seater and the other a tandem one. That's probably when Gen. Jumper flew the aircraft. I don't doubt that there were DACT/ACM/BFM as well. ~J
So 2 typhoons were there in NAS China Lake, so we have a print report of an aviation magazine and now we also got an eye witness that can verify that at least the typhoons were there (statement made prior to this debatE)... I hate to say it guys but just give it a couple months and we'll have this thing nailed down rock solid... We got the first eyewitness that can VERIFY part of the story... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 23:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
OK I JUST SIGNED up for an account that way I I am not an IP anymore...
"Yes, The Eurofighter was at Nellis for a short time, and of course some Raptors live here. Although the aircraft were parked at opposite ends of the flightline." http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-3303-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-255.html It came from F-16.net. A forum with a lot of Airforce crew dogs, pilots, and aerospace consultants. By the way the consenus I have found is that IAPR often does report erroneously and it's sources are often unidentified. I suggest you perhaps go to another forum, perhaps an "American" one rather than a British one like Keypublishing and see if IAPAR is considered the "gold standard". I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.253.25 ( talk) 01:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
1. In an encyclopedia that supposedly deals with facts citing a source from a report called Independent that was commissioned by the manufacturer is to say the least very suspect. 2. As was pointed out the article is about the Eurofighter not the Raptor or HMS Astute. If we are going to bring other AC into the article using a dubious source then it should at least be balanced by pointing out that due to cost escalation a Tranche II Eurofighter, the one without the AESA radar costs almost as much as a Raptor to which the unit cost from the USAF for 2008 is 137.4 million( http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070212-004.pdf) vs 122 million for the Eurofighter. An aircraft which no one is saying is in any way comparable to the Raptor. IOW not much bang for the buck. In fact if the USAF where to buy 100 more Raptors today the unit cost would cost less than $117 million( http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123022371) So do you want to keep this article about the Eurofighter or should we draw other weapons systems in and tell the complete accurate story? 12.164.252.102 06:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. The most recent, documented (right in this wiki article no less)unit cost for the 72 Eurofighters that Saudi Arabia is buying is $122 Million. That is without weapons, guidance systems and no AESA radar. The total projected unit cost for the 2008 Raptors $137.4 Million as documented above. That is with full avionics, engine and an AESA radar. Just add gas pilot and weapons. 12.164.252.102 07:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
"as much as a Raptor to which the unit cost from the USAF for 2008 is 137.4 million" -LOL, this information is cherry-picked by an F-22 fanatic in that article, the cost of the Raptor is much higher. Dont use 1 polluted article to pollute another.-- Financialmodel 11:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
CDI reports F22 cost as 411 million USD, and 250 million USD flyaway cost. I also found it in few other sources. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/distance-kept-lockheed-f-22-out-of-libya-action-schwartz-says.html http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?documentid=4710&programID=37&from_page=../friendlyversion/printversion.cfm http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/TPL_Essay8_2.9.11.pdf In short, both 350 million USD unit program and 150 million USD flyaway cost for F22 are outdated, and should be changed. 78.2.236.42 ( talk) 12:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC) comment start: I didnt see this response, but you want sources? (see Talk:F-22_Raptor#The real price of the F-22)
The article of the Typhoon seems to be used by F-22 fans as a playground - they all like to quote the Jumper statement in a way so it seems that they are designed for "different levels of performence", where they then indicate the F-22 is better, using quotes from US airforce, when quotes are inserted from same source, only newer, that Jumper say they run "neck on neck" this is deleted". Also a clear quote that a austrian general liked the Typhoon was deleted perhaps, because he said it was the best he had ever flown - all had sources. Do we jsut delete and replace what we dont like when new info is added?-- Financialmodel 18:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Now some idiot have added even more about the F-22 in the article and locked it. This article is now clearly biased and minipulated by raptor fanatics, just read the comparisons, he said they run neck on neck, but now this is removed and its said they are designed for different levels of performence and then 3-4 new lines are added about the F-22. - Who locked this and where can this article be marked as biased?-- Financialmodel 03:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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It seems relevent to discuss stealth more in this article. That the typhoon has less stealth, and therefore better aerodynamics, than the American fighters is probably the principal operational distinction between them.
Kitplane01 16:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature." http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html
You are a Reston Martin Lockheed Troll? -- 90.187.24.2 17:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot
66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Then show us a scientific paper from Paul Metz about stealth!
A Sailboat can fly?
You think that all is only obtainable with ASEA? Think again. Yea, great is better. Not always. Nmax = 100* 0,5/(df/fo)!
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/05/navy_boeing_superhornet_070517/ How many AN/APG-79 are filded?-- 90.187.37.228 07:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is on the Eurofighter Typhoon and this talk page is not a discussion forum. - Fnlayson 13:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
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The entire paragraph is removed for the following reasons: 1. Global Security article cited makes NO MENTION of either F-35 or F-22. 2. Global Security article referneced links (that which the article bases it's fact on) DO NOT WORK. 3. Paul Metz has no reason to lie and I would say he is far more qualified to make judgements on airodynamic performance than JWCOOK or the Eurofighter PR page. 4. Proof for your own eyes - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW2Hvu_mUdU The fact is the EF is not designed for stealth because th emanufacturer does not know how to do it. Not because of some BS about not compromising on airodynamic performance. If you think the claim should be put back in then fix the citations and debunk what Metz said.
http://www.f-104.de/exponates/english/exp_lampyridae_eng.html BAE Replica -- 90.187.58.89 22:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature." http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html h a Thales sales brochure is a really good source for unbiased information, not. What is passive radar anyway? Metz, not a good source? Do you even know who he is?141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Metz's Qualifications: Paul Metz is a subject matter expert for this issue. He was a fighter pilot, a test pilot for the B2, YF-23, F-35 as well as the F-22. His graduate studies are in Aeronautical Engineering. He is a Fellow and past President of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. He has received several awards directly related to the profession...... It keeps going. http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
Further according to Wiki "Test pilots must have an excellent knowledge of aeronautical engineering, in order to understand how they are testing and why." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot Lastly, he retired from LM in 2006. He has no reason to make this stuff up. Metz is indeed qualified and an expert in both aerodynamics and stealth and he says the two are no longer mutually exclusive. 66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Talking about stealth in regards to the Eurofighter is absolutely ridiculous. Kitplane's insistence on keeping it is further proof that Wikipedia is a farce. Your "source" http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/structure.html for the claim that the Eurofighter is second only to the F-22 in stealth is laughable. In fact no such thing is claimed the actual quotewhich is as follows:
"The actual radar cross section is of course classified, it is however set out for the RAF in SR(A)-425. According to the RAF the Eurofighter's RCS more than exceeds these requirements. More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature."
So we have a problem on several levels. There is an implication of something that we know is empirically wrong - NO ONE has ever said that the RCS of the EF is less the the F-117 or B2. the web cite used as a source is a fanboy website and it's "facts" are suspect. Lastly RCS is classified for ANY military aircraft. In fact one could argue that the Rafale, Viggen and Super Hornet all have a lower RCS than Eurofighter. The entire stealth part of the article should be removed and mention should rightfully be given in the design section that the Eurofighter has had RAM applied to the leading edges and intakes. But low frontal RCS, don't make me laugh, there is this big metal antenna right in the nose of the aircraft that reflects and generates plenty of RF energy. That is one of the reasons why AESA radar is so important. Aside from being LPI. The chips that make up the antenna are steered electronically so the antenna can be canted at an angle to deflect incoming RF energy. 151.204.148.50 02:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Therefore is it canted at the F-35. ;) Canted degrade the focus, the effective size and range in the frontal hemisphere.;) http://www.radartutorial.eu/17.bauteile/bt36.en.html F22 and EF: Therefore is the radom polarization and frequncies selective (bandpass), the antenna is not canted! For LPI you should first learn what LPI mean and how a slot antenna works!!!
Viggen, Gripen, Rafale and Hornet have oval air intakes that is not very stealty. Rino, F-22 and EF have angular intakes. ;)
http://www.airpower.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2629 ;) http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airpower.at%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2629&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools -- 90.186.76.28 12:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
[1] The effect of dihedral on RCS have you not understand. -- 90.186.128.244 14:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
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As has been stated before this talk page is only to discuss the related article, if you want to chatter please use your own talk pages. Thank you. MilborneOne 17:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, stealth is about more than planeform, but that is part of the equation. Also, the willingness to carry payload externally is another part.
Do you disagree with this globalsecurity.org quote?
For example, "The use of Stealth technology is incorporated throughout the aircraft’s basic design. The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features. Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry." at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm
We go throught this over and over and the FACTS CLEARLY indicaet that you are WRONG KITPLANE.
Kitplane01
06:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
We go throught this over and over and the FACTS CLEARLY indicaet that you are WRONG KITPLANE. 71.247.5.59 14:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. Stealth is about so much more than planeform. 162.83.224.74 17:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC) http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00089/2_Eurofighter_capabi_89302a.pdf How stealht is stealht? Page 41--90.186.191.74 08:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Where do you come up with better airodynamics? The F-22 outperforms the EF. If the JSF performs up to expectation it will as well.141.155.130.103 03:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Very stealthy, especially when you have a LPI radar. BTW if IRST is so good for detecting, tracking and targeting the enemy how come it has not replaced radar. Hint, try looking for a needle in a haystack looking through a straw. Nice sales brochure EADS has there, too bad Super Hornet already has all the toys EF hopes to have one day. At 2/3 the price.70.18.8.23 03:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz, Chief Test Pilot F-22 in an interview with Karlo Kopp- "The decision to integrate the technologies of stealth, supercruise, super-maneuverability and sensor fusion was the result of significant advances in each of these areas in the 1970s and 80s. In particular, stealth technology had advanced to the point that high lift, high angle of attack aerodynamic shapes could co-exist with stealth requirements. This was a significant evolution from the first generation stealth aircraft represented by the SR-71 and A-12. Second generation stealth as evidenced by the F-117 had yet to allow aerodynamic efficiency to co-exist with stealth. Only with the third generation of stealth inherent in the B-2 bomber were we able to achieve efficient aerodynamic shapes with a low radar signature."
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html
h a Thales sales brochure is a really good source for unbiased information, not. What is passive radar anyway? Metz, not a good source? Do you even know who he is?141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Kitplane your continued attempts at inclusion of a statement that makes it sound like the decision to not make EF stealthy is ridiculous. The plane was not developed for stealth because it's original mission did not call for stealth. Second, Paul Metz, and others, as well as anyone watching an airshow with an F-22 performance will tell you that there is nothing given up in terms of aerodynamics for stealth nor if the goals of the F-35 are to be met will there be any problem with perfromance as well. Please stop inserting your unsupported opinion into the article141.155.136.203 13:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Metz is a subject matter expert for this issue. He was a fighter pilot, a test pilot for the B2, YF-23, F-35 as well as the F-22. His graduate studies are in Aeronautical Engineering. He is a Fellow and past President of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. He has received several awards directly related to the profession...... It keeps going. http://sections.asme.org/CentralOK/monthlyNLs/January_2007.pdf
Further according to Wiki "Test pilots must have an excellent knowledge of aeronautical engineering, in order to understand how they are testing and why." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot Lastly, he retired from LM in 2006. He has no reason to make this stuff up. Metz is indeed qualified and an expert in both aerodynamics and stealth and he says the two are no longer mutually exclusive. 66.155.195.2 12:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Always good to see that the saying a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You have certainly prove that point 90.187.191.157. Variants of the NACA 6 series of foils are used in sailboat keels all the way through such high performance jet fighters as the F-4 Phantom and the F-15. No one would argue that the F-15 is in any way lacking in aerodynamic excellence. Here is a list for you to go educate yourself. http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html208.39.157.25 15:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Many articles about the Eurofighter mention this tradeoff. For example, "The use of Stealth technology is incorporated throughout the aircraft’s basic design. The design of the Eurofighter Typhoon has not sacrificed flexibility of weapon carriage, maneuverability or performance to produce an inflexible stealth aircraft but it does contain a comprehensive suite of stealth features. Designing a fighter aircraft for stealth alone means making compromises to its aerodynamic and manoeuvre performance as well as restricting the number of weapons that aircraft can carry." at
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm.
How about "Stealth comes at a high cost in aerodynamic performance, which the LCA and Eurofighter designers avoided." at http://www.stratmag.com/issue2Dec-15/page02.htm.
The BBC thinks that the Eurofighter's stealthiness is important. They think there is a tradeoff between stealth and aerodynamics. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1818077.stm
One can also find a mention of the trade-off in many scholarly articles, for example cosmos.ucdavis.edu/2003/cluster%206/Jae%20Park/index.htm.
The most important operational differences between the Eurofighter and the new American fighters are that the Eurofighter is less stealthy and can carry external stores.
Finally, if you disagree say why here and don't edit war. Kitplane01 06:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Billcj says to seek consensus before changing the Eurofighter page. But what I've written is true, relevent, and cited. The only problem is that some anonymous person keep deleting it.
Mr. Billcj, I have looked at your talk page and seen your contributions. You've got my respect and I'd be happy to work with you. Besides that some anonymous person keeps reverting my two sentences, is there a problem? What would you have them say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's try concentrate on working out the best paragraph on stealth/performance that we can here, and then get a consensus to include it. THere do appear to be conflicting sources on the degree stealth affects the performances of the F-22 and F-35, and the best thing here is to find the best sources available, and present them. We don't have to take a side one way or another if those sources disagree, just to present the whole objectively, if possible. - BillCJ 20:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Kitplane01 21:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
True there are no stealth European planes, there are no stealth Russian planes for that matter. AS with most aircraft of the same generation as Eurofighter there are plenty of planes that measures where taken to reduce RCS. Rafale and Super Hornet come to mind. They are much better comparison than F-22 and F-35. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The entire entry on stealth in regards to the Typhoon is ridiculous. True Stealth aircraft are orders of magnitude "stealthier". This applies to emissions control in the use of LPI radar, masking the exhaust as well as radar. Claiming the Eurofighter is stealthy is like someone saying they are a little bit pregnant. Yes, the plane has had RAM applied, but that is about all. It is no more stealthy than it's contemporaries such as the Rafale and Super Hornet. A better way to understand the degree of "stealthiness" on these aircraft is that it is much like applying camoflage. Nothing more and there really is nothing out there that says otherwise. I would quote from the official Eurofighter website from which the Global Security entry uses as its reference and which it misquotes - "Stealth technology is incorporated in the basic design. Features include low frontal Radar Cross Section (RCS), passive sensors and supercruise capability." ( http://www.eurofighter.com/et_mp_df.asp)There is nothing said about how carrying external weapons increases an aircraft's radar cross section. That should be pretty obvious to everyone. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The fact is if you are carrying your stores internally your aerodynamics are going to be much better than a similar airplane carrying external weapons. To try to make the case that Eurofighter was not made especially stealthy because they wanted to have the advantage of being able to carry external stores is lunacy. Further the insinuation in the article that the Eurofighter's "stealthiness falls somewhere between an F-117 and the F-22 is pure fantasy and again has no basis in fact. 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Frankly the stealth paragraph should not be included. The plane is not in the same class in regards to stealth as the f-117, B-2 or any other truly LO aircraft. I sentence such as "The Typhoon incorporates RAM and other design features to reduce it's radar cross section to some extent." 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Lastly, both the F-22 and F-35 can and will carry external stores in certain situations. In fact the F-22 has four 5000 pound plumbed stations. See http://strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-47689.aspx for pictures of F-22 jettisoning two fuel tanks. The F-35 has six external hard points. But again all of this is moot since they can both carry a full war load internally. So why is is this even brought up in the article? 71.247.11.28 05:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Talking about stealth in regards to the Eurofighter is absolutely ridiculous. Kitplane's insistence on keeping it is further proof that Wikipedia is a farce. Your "source" http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/structure.html for the claim that the Eurofighter is second only to the F-22 in stealth is laughable. In fact no such thing is claimed the actual quotewhich is as follows:
"The actual radar cross section is of course classified, it is however set out for the RAF in SR(A)-425. According to the RAF the Eurofighter's RCS more than exceeds these requirements. More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature."
So we have a problem on several levels. There is an implication of something that we know is empirically wrong - NO ONE has ever said that the RCS of the EF is less the the F-117 or B2. the web cite used as a source is a fanboy website and it's "facts" are suspect. Lastly RCS is classified for ANY military aircraft. In fact one could argue that the Rafale, Viggen and Super Hornet all have a lower RCS than Eurofighter. The entire stealth part of the article should be removed and mention should rightfully be given in the design section that the Eurofighter has had RAM applied to the leading edges and intakes. But low frontal RCS, don't make me laugh, there is this big metal antenna right in the nose of the aircraft that reflects and generates plenty of RF energy. That is one of the reasons why AESA radar is so important. Aside from being LPI. The chips that make up the antenna are steered electronically so the antenna can be canted at an angle to deflect incoming RF energy. 151.204.148.50 02:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airpower.at%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2629&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools -- 90.186.76.28 12:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
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As has been stated before this talk page is only to discuss the related article, if you want to chatter please use your own talk pages. Thank you. MilborneOne 17:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it worthwhile mentioning that the plane was featured in a BBC TV programme hosted by James May? No doubt there will be a long list of 'VIPs' who have been flown supersonically (doubt May was) like they used to in the two-seat Lightning. Not sure the Tiffie has appeared in any movies yet. James Bond perhaps? Other Wiki's have such 'trivia' included. Don't want to lower the tone but... Cheers Roy Royzee 12:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Ho ho - May is unlikely to get an award with that haircut. There were several noteworthy aspects in the clip. To his credit he did not throw up. Maybe I will make a clip of it and put it on YT so you can make a judgement. On a similar note from the preview shown on the latest Top Gear the news series will show another one of those races involving a Tiffie vs a car. I have seen one of these on YT - maybe this should be mentioned, a Typhoon vs Ferrari? See: [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUruFwWEz4k Royzee 15:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Update - there is a video on YT showing the BBC filming the soon to be aired contest between a Bugatti and a Typhoon: [5] Royzee 17:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Also there are photos on Air Attack: http://www.air-attack.com/php/displ_img.php?imgurl=/MIL/eurofighter/typhoon_veyron_2_20071013.jpg Royzee 06:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Reply: Ho ho. My style seems to come over as sarcastic. I do actually prefer May to those other TG chaps. Like his books too. I agree the Ferrari race was a publicity stunt. Nevertheless, it does have some merit as probably the first public demo of one aspect of its power. It also serves as a reassurance to the taxpayers that their money is being well-spent etc. Oops maybe I am sounding sarcastic;) Also, while I agree with you that the video quality is not optimal it is a unique record. This is where YT scores, generous people who take the time to share their clips can provide a glimpse we would otherwise be denied. I know what goes in to preparing clips for YT and it's not a five minute job. So thanks to them for bothering. OK there is a show-off element but I am grateful they share. Like you I have yet to see a full Tiffie display. Time to get off my hobbyhorse and get back to work! Cheers Roy Royzee 09:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Would the regulars from WP:AIR please check this edit for validity? It removed sourced information. It was made several times under an IP and then by a brand new user, who is actually our old sockpuppet friend once known as Wikzilla, as are the IP comments above signed 141.155.128.109. I have reverted per process, as edits by banned users aren't normally allowed to stand, but in the interest of accuracy, I wanted someone else to review it to see if his edits this time had any validity. Thanks! AKRadecki Speaketh 13:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph
was taken from the cited site. It's one paragraph from a large site, use for educational purpose. I believe this qualifies for "fair use", however I will be willing to rewrite it if need be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Mark, got your request about pasting in stuff verbatim - my intent was benign as I was alerting people like yourself who presumably may want to edit the stuff and pop it in some time in your own style rather than me do it and maybe incur the wrath of others. Will desist from now on.
BTW I like your list of each Tiffie and what each has done. I wonder which aircraft were chosen for the recent flypast - this was my first sight of this aircraft. Like London buses, hadn't seen one and then 6 come by at once! Cheers Roy PS Have sent the message this way as I could not see how to reply to your private message.
Royzee 08:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
According to reports such as in Flight International, Italy is grappling with a funding dilemma over Tranche 3 Eurofighters. A news item by Pino Modola reports how their government moved to guarantee funding for the next five years. However, it has not yet formally committed to the Tranche 3 production phase thanks to cost concerns. Italy has 24 of its 75 Typhoons as per the first two production tranches. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/10/08/217866/italy-grapples-with-funding-dilemma-over-tranche-3-eurofighters.html
Royzee 12:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
A short report on Flight about trials - photo of the impressive warload notably with various LGBs re-emphasising its ground attack role as opposed to interception, CAP etc.
Royzee 06:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
(I left this note on the IP's talk page, but since it's probably a dynamic IP, that editor will likely never see it, so I'm dropping a copy here) Please do not removed cited information as you did at Eurofighter Typhoon. If you believe that the information is incorrect, go to the talk page and discuss it. What is your removal based on? Your own opinion that it is factually incorrect? There are opinions that disagree with that, and in the end, this isn't a place for your opinion anyway, it's a place for cited material. So, where's your source for showing that this is "factually incorrect"? Bill wasn't insinuating that you couldn't add meaningful content, what the issue is is that new editors are often unaware of our guidelines and policies, and therefore edit from the wrong direction. I'd rather not semi-protect this page again, so please edit within the parameters of how we do things. AKRadecki Speaketh 13:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
If IP editors want to edit war instead of discussing things here like they've been asked to numerous times by multiple project editors, then IPs simply don't get to edit here. Follow the rules, have a little patience to let process work, and things will be fine. This is an encyclopedia, not a wild web forum. Thumb your nose at the rules, and this is the result. AKRadecki Speaketh 17:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
According to statements in the media the Japanese Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba has gone on record suggesting his country might consider acquiring the Typhoon. In an interview he said the strongest alternative among planes made other countries was the Eurofighter. He stated that the Rafale was difficult to use, they couldn't consider a Russian fighter plane so he thought the Typhoon was all that was left. There has been some falling out with the US over leaking of information about the US Aegis radar system making the F22 less of an option at least for now.
See, for example Reuters:
Royzee 06:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There was a report on google News linking to a Chinese newspaper People's Daily Online. It referred to Eurofighter consortium being ready to deliver 24 Typhoon aircraft to the Romanian Air Force in the 2010-2014 period said program director for Romania Giuseppe Paoletti at a press conference organized within the EXPOMIL 2007 show in Bucharest. It added that they could provide the first operational squadron of Typhoon warplanes in 2010 replacing its present MiG-21 Lancer planes. [Better get those pilots into training if they are to going to be able to handle these much more complex aircraft by then IMO]. See: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90781/90876/6287157.html Royzee 07:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
In a short article about the Tranche 2, Typhoon Development, the Tiffie's 'Instrumented Production Aircraft 6' (IPA6) at Warton completed engine runs; the first time it has worked as a complete system independently of ground support equipment.
http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/8267 Royzee 07:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
First flight of IPA6 took place on 1 November 2007, under the control of project Test Pilot Mark Bowman, taking off at 13.06 hrs hours and staying airborne for 54 minutes. While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. http://www.eurofighter.com/news/20071101_ipa6.asp Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
In a PR Opsens Inc. announced an order from BAE Systems for the supply of RadSens-type signal conditioners and OTG-R-type fiber optic temperature sensors. It follows recent approval of these products obtained from the Defence Ordnance Safety Group (DOSG), an organization of the UK Ministry of Defence. It did not specify what these are for, they could be engine monitoring of course.
Opsens says it is a leading developer, manufacturer and supplier of a wide range of fiber optic sensors and associated signal conditioners based on proprietary patent and patent-pending technologies.
See: http://www.opsens.com/PDF/OPSENS_Pressrelease_2007-10-17.pdf http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/October2007/17/c4861.html http://www.opsens.com/investors.html#anchor_5 Royzee 08:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Have today added a new clip on Live Video of the Typhoon at Farnborough. Some interesting comments from the test pilot: http://www.livevideo.com/video/27BD498B62764D41954EA5CAA861E404/eurofighter-typhoon-on-airshow.aspx?m_tkc=8088361 Royzee 21:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Identifying which Tiffie has done what: Flight mag said two aircraft from 29 Sqn OCU served as a one-versus-one training flight for an 11 Sqn pilot ahead of the unit's formal establishment at Coningsby. ZJ812, a Tranche 1 Block 2 production aircraft, the "opponent" was using an earlier Block 1 aircraft, ZJ800. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/24/213442/eurofighter-typhoon-special-storm-force-training.html Royzee 14:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Billcj says he "reversion of sourced info". But it's ALL sourced. I have 14 footnotes in 4 paragraphs. There is no part of the article more sourced. However, if there is some statement of fact you doubt, please let me know and I will put in even more references.
NO, I did not use a personal post on a forum web site for a source. I used a magazine article for a magazine that is no longer published, and found TWO copies online for veracity. You can verify this yourself.
Finally, I would like the article locked. I'm tired of sock-puppet games. If you will not lock the article, could we omit all references to stealth whatsoever, as well as any other changes that Mr. sock-puppet wants. The article would at least be peaceful, if not complete. If wikipedia is going to be run by sock-puppets, I'll be happy to spend my time elsewhere. I'm not a newbie (check my contributions) but I'm tired of this.
I call on the admin to settle this.
F-22 reward visibility sacrificed for stealth.
Stealth means the proper suppression of all its important “signatures”—Visual Signature, Radar Signature, Infrared Signature, Electromagnetic Emissions, and Sound.
Visually—The F–22, one of the world’s largest, most identifiable fighters, cannot hide in daylight. Its role is in daylight. Stealth operations are night operations. Unfortunately stealth against radar invariably increases the size of a fighter making it more visible.
The radar signature is utterly inadequately reported. Only a single data number is provided to congressional committees and the GAO—the average radar signature in the level forward direction within 20 degrees of the nose, presumably to enemy fighter radars. In the B-1B reporting fiasco, the 100/1 signature advantage over the B-52 became a real 1.8/1. One cannot design an aircraft to simultaneously hide from low and medium frequency ground radars and from high frequency airborne fighter radars. Properly, all the data should be portrayed and reported—for all azimuths, for all “latitudes,” and for all radar frequencies. Single data points constitute lying by omission and gross incompleteness.
The temperature increases of supersonic cruising flights make the F-22s beacons in the sky to infrared sensors.-- 90.186.189.208 18:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What to do about Stealth
It looks like there are several out there who believe that information about stealthy aspects of this aircraft ought to be included in the article. I agree that information about all unique design aspects of this aircraft ought to be included too - we just need to figure out an unbiased to convey this information. Does anyone object to the use of the title "Signature-reduction features?" It is accurate, to the point, and makes no representations other than that the contents of the section thusly titled detail features which reduce signature. Nicholas SL Smith 04:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"The Eurofighter consortium claims their fighter has a larger sustained subsonic turn rate, sustained supersonic turn rate, and faster acceleration at 0.9 at 20,000 feet than the F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, the Su-27, and the MiG-29" Since when does a marketing claim make it into an encyclopedia? It's not allowed on the F-22 page so wht here? The same goes for Kitplanes stealth additions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philbaaker ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
It`s not only propaganda, 2004 in british airspace in a simulated fight a british Eurofighter shot down two american F-15. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.186.50.33 ( talk) 07:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
On November 1 first Eurofighter Typhoon with Tranche 2 avionics took to the air at BAE Systems' Warton facility. Instrumented Production Aircraft Six (IPA6) completed its maiden flight under the control of Mark Bowman, Eurofighter Typhoon test pilot at BAE Systems.
The press release said that IPA6's first prominent task will be to accomplish Type Acceptance for Block 8, the first capability standard of the second Tranche Typhoon, in April 2008. While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. The first flight of IPA7 is expected before the end of 2007 at the Manching site of EADS, Germany. See: http://www.eurofighter.com/news/20071101_ipa6.asp
Royzee 10:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
At the time of the Dubai Airshow, reports were coming out of BAE Systems Plc saying it was in talks with at least ten countries about selling Eurofighter Typhoon. It includes several possible buyers in the Middle East, Simon Keith, BAE's MD for the region, said in an interview. See: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a6mOay2gxNVE&refer=uk Royzee 13:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
On 12 November 2007 the Eurofighter Typhoon Combined Test Team (CTT), comprising staff from BAE Systems and the Royal Air Force, successfully completed the first mission to drop a laser guided bomb, scoring a direct hit at the Aberporth range. Ref: http://www.eurofighter.com/po_ln.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 16:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Under Eurofighter_Typhoon#Costs_increases, it currently says: "The cost of the Eurofighter project has increased from original estimates. The cost of the UK's aircraft has increased from £7 billion to £19 billion". What I'm wondering is, where does the £7 come from? The three references cited in this section do not mention such a figure - the closest is one source speaking of an increase from about £17b to £19b. Also, further below it says "the Eurofighter programme compare favourably with that of the F-22 (14% over budget[neutrality disputed] and 54 months late versus 127% over budget and 117 months late)". From £7 to £19 would be far more than the claimed 14%, and even more than the 127% it is said to compare favourably to. Anyone has a definitive reference for the cost increase? -- Allefant ( talk) 16:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Towards the end of November BAe Systems announced the receipt of a maintenance contract from the UK MOD for Typhoon. The contract, worth 11.6 mln stg is to provide repair services on certain Typhoon aircraft components. The components in the first incremental package include the nose radome, windscreen and canopy assembly; repairs will be done at RAF Coningsby involving RAF and BAE staff. It is to run to the end of 2014 and is the first in a series of four partnered support contracts for a total value of ca. 227 mln stg. Royzee ( talk) 20:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
A possible order for additionally 24 Eurofighters-- HDP ( talk) 22:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Specific performance parameters such as acceleration and turn rate at a given altitude and speed are not made public. You will not find numbers like that in the public domain for the vast majority of combat aircraft. The claim made by the Eurofighter website that it out turns specific aircraft at M0.9 is very suspect. More so given the fact that the actual numbers are not given and there really is no way for Eurofighter to know them. 70.18.10.6 ( talk) 00:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Theory and opinion has no place here. We report what the references say, and it is inappropriate for an IP editor, or any editor for that matter, to remove material that is cited (in this case, the paragraph has two different citations). As it is abundantly clear that the Wikzilla sock is going to continue putting his personal opinion and personal analysis above the cited refs, and is going to continue to edit war, this page is now s-protected as well. To the IP editor: you clearly have no regard for how we do things around here, and you clearly think that your own opinion is the only correct one, therefore I have no choice but to keep you from edit warring with the rest of the community. If you have a cite that contradicts the existing one, that's a whole different matter, but as it stands now, we have your opinion versus two refs, and you lose. AKRadecki Speaketh 16:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed inconsistency in use of units in one para:
According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[74]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[75] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[76]
IMO it should be metre or metres
and be consistent on use of number or word: 1 or one
Royzee ( talk) 17:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, when this article can again be updated, will somebody add Category:Multiple engine aircraft, and Category:Low wing aircraft ? Thanks in advance. Raymondwinn ( talk) 17:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Dunno if you have seen this but there's a news update on Av Week WS called 'Typhoon Runs Out Of Wind in Denmark and Norway'.
Douglas Barrie says how Eurofighter has 'halted its efforts to try to sell the Typhoon to Denmark and Norway'.
IMHO this is a mistake they will regret.
Royzee ( talk) 07:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I have read it, but its not as simple as this. The story (in my own words, with no links to sources, since not in english) is that the race looks fixed in advance, so its not a real competition, and if JSF is already chosen by certain politicians, Eurofighter GMBH is just wasting ressources on participation in a run, where the winner is already picked. The danish goverment have been "donating money" for the JSF project, and the requirement for Typhoon and Gripen are much higher than for JSF, read comment from griphen today. This is why Eurofighter group pulled out of the race, they belive they are just wasting their time. In demark, the largest company is the container/oil company Maersk, which has close connections to the US defence department, as logistic partner e.g Iraq, and Terma, the only real danish aerospace company (owned by maersk) support JSF in public several times, because they have been promised buy back orders from the JSF program (both Terma and Maersk). Mearsk have alot to say in Denmark, and eurofighter gmbh may have a valid point, the race does look fixed. --
Financialmodel (
talk)
19:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
According to MTU Aero Engines: Germany's leading engine manufacturer, it has become the first company worldwide to repair a component by patching, hand it over to the customer and obtain EASA approval for the innovative repair technique.
A press release states that in December, 2007, a repaired blisk from a low-pressure turbine of the Eurofighter's EJ200 engine was delivered to the National Quality Assurance Office for aviation equipment. http://www.mtu.de/en/press/actual_news/news1/index.html
Royzee ( talk) 10:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding another story about F-22 vs. Eurofighter i really do think the IAPR story should somehow be included in the article, though perhaps rewritten a bit, so it just refer to the source as internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW and say they claimed "......", in my eyes this should be enough, and all can read, its questionable, but at the same time see that such a thing has been reported, and who it was reported by. [7]
In early 2005, Eurofighter Typhoon made its first transatlantic deployment. Under the 'Exercise High Rider' nickname, the Air Warfare Centre (AWC) conducts routine trials work on the United States western ranges, taking advantage of significant overland airspace, good weather and instrumented range infrastructure to maximise operational test and evaluation output from these facilities.
Exercise High Rider 10 took place at the United States Naval Air Weapons Range China Lake in California. Taking part in the deployment were the Harrier GR7 and Tornado GR4 aircraft of the AWC's Fast Jet and Weapons Operational Evaluation Unit (FJWOEU) based at RAF Coningsby and a Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft from the Typhoon combined test team.
The aircraft was deployed from BAE Systems Warton, crewed by a BAE Systems test pilot and a Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU)17(R) Squadron pilot. BT005, a twin-seat series production aircraft, made the transatlantic crossing with the help of RAF VC10 and Tristar refuelling assets, before conducting an unaccompanied transit across the USA from Bangor Maine to China Lake, stopping to refuel at Little Rock Arkansas and Cannon Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Eurofighter Typhoon began flying again immediately after its arrival undertaking trials work to evaluate the aircraft's weapon system in an operational environment.
Exercise High Rider 10 recovered to the UK at the end of the deployment. [8]
"more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake NAWS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long rate. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .
- When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the converstaion on security grounds"
And..........
"The US Air Force has already begun to take delivery of another superjet, the F-22 Raptor. This is very stealthy but costs twice the price of the Eurofighter, and reports suggest that RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US" [9] .
- Perhaps you have been told that the F-22 is a stealth aircraft, and that this makes the F-22 invisible to radar, so from this you conclude that "AIPR" and "BBC World" must be lying about the Typhoon being able to track the F-22? But it is old news that the Typhoon was meant to be able to track stealth, just read BBC world long before this incident ever happened. On December 22, 1997 BBC world report:
"Eurofighter has the world's most advanced radar for long-range detection and acquisition of targets both in the air and on the ground. Known as the ECR90, it is developed by GEC-Ferranti and will allow pilots to detect and track numerous targets simultaneously and then to fire at enemy aircraft well beyond visual range.
The aircraft is also equipped with an infra-red search and track system which will enable pilots to spot the enemy by detecting minute differences in temperature between the target and its background, making "stealth" aircraft visible.As it is a passive system, it can operate without giving the aircraft's position away to the enemy." [10]
- The F-22 might be shapped to reduce its radar cross-section, but it still use a lot of energy, and what do you think comes out of the back of an F-22 then? Heat? You simply cant hide such consumption of energy, and this is how the Typhoon has always been build to track stealth aircraft, old news.
"The RAF's 17 Sqn OEU has routinely deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate alongside US fighters including the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor. "The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working," says Walker. Asked how the fighters compare, he says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is." BAE Typhoon project test pilot Mark Bowman sees even less of a capability gap. "The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth," he says. "Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better. Upcoming commitments for the UK Typhoon force include involvement in a UK combined qualified weapons instructor course and possible participation in a Red Flag exercise in the USA. "We want to integrate with a multinational package and are always looking for a way to challenge the aircraft and the pilots," says Atha" [11]
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 14:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
More to be checked:
Air Forces Monthly - January 2007" is quoted saying (this one I would like help to be checked, I have only read references to it):
"During the Typhoon's visit to the US in 2005 it was pitted againt the F-22, this was not officially confirmed. The Typhoon could not see the F-22 but could detect that it was being painted by the F-22 and took "appropriate" measures with defensive aids. In one on one combat the Typhoon did the same job as on the Su-30, the F-22 could not handle the Typhoons close in and were shocked. It did not go all the Typhoon's way but the Americans had a sobering encounter, with the F-22 sacrificing much for stealth"
and
Aviation Week & Space Technology - 10/03/2005, page 23:
Unconfirmed reports--that is, rumors-- making the rounds in European aerospace industry circles contend that Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons, temporarily operating from Nellis AFB, Nev., were able to pick up U.S. Air Force F/A-22s on their radars, stealth notwithstanding.
Similar reports appeared during the 1991 Iraq war concerning the ability of British ships, using large radar arrays, to detect the F-117 and, in later conflicts, the B-2. U.S. officials confirm that the Typhoons were at Nellis to fly with the 422nd Test & Evaluation Sqdn.
However, they discount that the Typhoons had seen an F/A-22 in full-configuration stealth.
First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time. Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations"
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 23:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
In short, the Eurofighter Typhoon in USA 2005 on 'Exercise High Rider' was deployed from BAE Systems Warton, crewed by a BAE Systems test pilotand a Typhoon Operational Evaluation Unit 17(R) Squadron pilot (its a two seater trainer). Mark Bowman, who said The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth," and "Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better" is a BAE Systems test pilot from BAE Systems Warton. Now perhaps you can understand why Mark Bowman, the Eurofighter testpilot, isnt impressed by the F-22 [12].-- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) This whole effort to insert a non-notable anecdote, sourced or not, smacks of WP:POINT to me. The primary user advocating its inclusion is also complaining of biases in the F-22 Raptor article, and this item is just the kind of thing that would make the article seem pro-Typhoon.
Legitimate questions of the story and facts surrounding it aside, why should this be here? Is every non-combat encounter between fighters notable? What in this encounter sets it apart from the many others that occur every year? Is this the only encounter between a Typhoon and a USAF (or any onter nation's AF) fighter aircraft? Where the pilots involved notable in some way? Does this really belong in "Operational history", or even any other section of an aircraft article other than trivia? What does it prove, especially as no attempt to provide the Eagle pilots' perspective has even been made? Was the encounter part of some organized training or adversary activity, such as Red FLag, which might possible confer notability? I'm sure there are other questions that could be asked regarding notability, but I trust that these are enough to make my point to the more-experienced editors here.
Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia. We don't have to publish every minor encounter just because it was reported somewhere. If such info is in the F-22 article, it should be removed also, if it is just as non-notable. If it's notability can be asserted by reliable sources, then include it. But at this point, the brief anecdote reported in the newspaper fails that test. - BillCJ ( talk) 20:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes this is an encyclopedia about the Eurofighter, as if noone here knew, and people come here to read about the Eurofigter. This is not an article about the "battle of trafalgar", where the history books are already written, this is an article about a brand new fighter, and its history is developing as we speak. Sure we write about the historic cost, development history, and so on, but unlike old encyclopedia's, where the information was never updated when new information appeared, an online encyclopedia as WIKI should be updated when new information about the relevant topic appear. And this is what has happened. National newspapers report the Typhoon was chased by two F-15's, but managed to outmanouvre them and get a lock on them instead. Would readers be interested in such an "historic" event? I beleive they would, and added this source to this article, but it was deleted by 2 persons here, an IP, which is from New York, USA, and by Fnlayson, a mechanical engineer working in the US aerospace industry in Huntsville, AL, USA. Is it a coincidence, that it happens to be Americans that repeatedly deleted an added source from a European national newspaper? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it seems we have a patern here. Also we have several sources that reported that the Typhoon have done well against the F-22, which is regarded the top US fighter. Is this relevant and should this be included in an article about the Typhoon? Again i think it would be relevant, but again some argue its not relevant and should be deleted/removed from here. What are their arguments?
The IP from NY, USA says: "I will revert it since this has all been discussed before and is nothing more than rumor". So no matter how many sources report on this, he refuse to beleive the Typhoon was ever in USA, and that the Typhoon could ever have had a lock on the F-22, and he says he will revert it. In short, he says Eurofighter GmbH, AIPR, BBC World, Flight International, cannot be used as sources, and no matter what he will revert it. In short a veto by an IP. Now that a lot of power for an IP, why did i ever bother to register?
BillCJ see the sources, but he respond: "Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia", as if this is too new information, because it comes from "a newspaper or aviation magazine"? I'm sure BillCJ dont want this to be added, but his arguments are not rational to me. Again we all know this is an "encyclopedia", but this is an "online encyclopedia", that unlike old printed versions, allow us to keep an article up to date, as new information about a topic appear. Will new relevant information about the Typhoon appear in "a newspaper or aviation magazine" in the future? I think so, but BillCJ imply newspapers, whether national or local, and "aviation magazine" are not sources good enough for wiki, with the repeated argument "Wikipedia not a newspaper or aviation magazine, but an encyclopedia". OK, if this is how WIKI works, I hereby stop my arguments and I will make it my job to look thrugh all WIKI articles and remove all sources from newspapers and magazines, just like BillCJ is doing here. It looks like we have a "clean up" job in front of us, but "luckily its always soo much easier to delete than to add new sources to an article. Thank you my 3 American friends, BillCJ, the IP, and Fnlayson for pointing this out -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Forget it, refer to Fork, POV etc., and do what you want. I thought Wikipedia was an encyclopedia that was keept up to date. I know now its a popularity contest, where you just delete what you dont want to read, or where you vote if 2+2=4 or 2+2=5. Lesson learnt, dont do research on a topic and waste your time presenting it on something like Wiki. What you see here is patriotic vandalism by American users, and whether registred or not, the result is the same, censorship of all sources that inform Eurofighter have done well against the F-15 and even the top US fighter, the F-22 -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has a lot about the history of the typhoon project, a lot about export, but almost nothing about the real plane and its capabilities, and "fighter history" - If material is added to descripe such, its deleted within seconds. The job should be to improve and expand the article, and not to throw personal vetoes and delete want you dont want to read. Make suggestions on how to improve it instead of deleting it. Anyone can delete, but how many of you can add to this article and improve it? Fell free to suggest other ways to present it, but dont just disregard what several sources report on, simply because you dont like the "message". -- Financialmodel ( talk) 01:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
87.166.114.98 ( talk) 13:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
How can PIRATE still not be descriped in this article....? There is a huge lag in this article about the Typhoons radars, weapons, defence systems, and how these systems are to be used in combat. The Radars might be shortly descriped, but there is nothing about the Typhoons infrared systems designed to track stealth aircrafts.
Short description (but looking for better sources, to refer to):
The Typhoon will now be equipped with “Pirate”, a passive, infrared search and track system made by a consortium of companies led by Galileo Avionica, a Finmeccanica company. The Pirate (Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment) combines the functions of the FLIR infra-red system (Forward Looking Infra-Red) and of the IRST system (Infra Red Search and Track), able to search, detect and track potential targets. The system operates in a passive mode, without emitting signals which might reveal the aircraft’s presence.
From Thales [13]:
PIRATE gives a passive IRST capability to the Typhoon weapon system for the detection and tracking of air and surface targets as well as providing FLIR imagery for low level flight and navigation during all weather, day or night operations. The PIRATE hardware is housed in a compact single line replaceable unit containing the optical system and signal processing assemblies. This state of the art system gives Eurofighter Typhoon unrivalled IRST capabilities.
PIRATE complements the aircraft's active sensors and data link systems providing greatly enhanced and vital battlespace situational awareness for the Typhoon crew. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 01:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Who added this part under "Radar signature reduction features":
"Although these measures reduce the radar cross section of the Typhoon, the Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft. For example, the Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[73] The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[74]"
- Who ever wrote this probably didnt even know about PIRATE, a passive seach and track system........the quality of this is soo low!-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
-the headline for this part in the article should be "Sensors", and it should include a detaild description of:
- this article is a mess and require a "clean up", PIRATE has now been added as a random headline, and CAESAR and Captor is descriped under "testing" - the headlind should be "sensors". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Article has nothing about its weapons? Find sources this should b included also in article, her is a fast quote to see what should be refered to: [14]
Depending on role, the fighter can carry the following mix of missiles:
- Air-superiority - six BVRAAM (Beyond Visual Range)/AMRAAM air-to-air missiles on semi-recessed fuselage stations and two ASRAAM short-range air-to-air missiles on the outer pylons
- Air interdiction - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two cruise missiles and two Anti-Radar Missiles (ARM)
- SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-radar missiles
- Multi-role - three AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two ARM and two GBU-24 Paveway III/IV
- Close air support - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, 18 Brimstone anti-armour missiles
- Maritime attack - four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-ship missiles
-- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok there is a short description in "armament" in the end, but not detailed enough, it should provide information on what armament it can carry depending on its role. The Typhoon can carry a a lot of different weapons at the same time depending on what role its used in, but its not meanioned in armament as it is now, there is only a short list of what weapons fit. When you add something like this to the article:
The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[76] According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[77]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[78] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[79]
....you mention Typhoon carrying external stores increase RCS, and you point is its not a stealth aircraft, but there is no mention of the trade off with stealth and manoeuvrability. If you go for stealth you need a certain shape, and to assume this optimal stealth shape is the same as the optimal shape for manoeuvrability is wrong. The Typhoon was build to focus on manoeuvrability at high speeds, and not stealth as such, though moves have been made to reduce RCS. Because the focus of Typhoon is manoeuvrability and not stealth the Typhoon dont need internal stores, which limits the weapon supply, because of limited room in internal stores. And also its not all weapons that can be used in internal stores. Such details are not mention, the article focus on the problems with "no stealth" of the Typhoon and the fact that expternal weapons increase RCS. There is no mention of the gains from the Typhoon design, which is more weapons, both in quantity and and the different kind of missiles that can be used. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 23:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
From this ref: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030428/text/30428w15.htm talk of Main Gate (which I put in) is an anachronism, since the process has only existed since 1999: "Mr. Ingram: The Initial and Main Gate approval process has only been in operation within the Ministry of Defence since April 1999, having been introduced as one element of implementation of the Smart Procurement Initiative". Btw "Smart Procurement" - great tag line. Springnuts ( talk) 09:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
:I have restored the £7 billion, having found an additional source from a Hansard 1989 debate (so no typing error). As I recall at that stage there were just headline figures bandied about - but I realise my recollection is not a "verifiable source"!!
Springnuts (
talk)
00:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Could all parties take a long deep breath and follow "cool" dictums. Now that there have been a series of reverts in a 24-hour period, the article will be "locked" in order to prevent a WP:Fork tussle. FWIW Bzuk ( talk) 02:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC).
Fell free to improve it, but stop deleting sourced material. Everyone can delete articles like you, but how many can improve it? So easy to delete, but noone want to spend time adding new material and find different sources. This article contain almost no information, except some history about the project itself, and some export info, but its no wonder, with all the deletion we see here. It's clearly patriotic vandalism, and its in no interest for this article. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 02:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You havent found one single source questioning AIPR? It's your personal believs that stands in the way, and makes you call an airforce magazine like AIPR biased? This is a higly detailed magazine held by several air forces around the world, and its 45 page story about the Typhoon, is the best out there i have read soo far. Read IAPR before you start bashing it as a source and please link to all former discussions here on wiki about IAPR, and i shall read your argurments there. This is much more than IAPR reporting on this also BBS World, and flight global tells you straight out, with live sources that Typhoon and the F-22 does fly together, and yet you continue to claim this never happened and delete it. This article it fullof mooderators who dont care about this plane can do, but care more about trying to edit the price, and make it look bad compared to other certain planes, its quite obvious:
The RCS of the typhoon is one of the smallest out there, but it is not meant to be a stealth aircraft, beucase a such shape conflict with the shape needed for manoeuvrability, and this is not told i a fair manner, instead of this, this article, article start up by mentioning not stealth, not stealth, craby radars, low RCS, but weapons raise it, so no wonder noone could ever believe the Typhoon could ever track the F-22, you guess failed to mention even basic infrared weapons on the Typhoon, because you care more about deleting material than adding:
Although not a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect.[69][70] An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. The mean straight areas, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector.[71] Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves[72]. In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc.[73][74]
Although these measures reduce the radar cross section of the Typhoon, the Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft. For example, the Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[75] The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars.[76]
According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than it required. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado it replaces[77]. No official figure are available, but the Eurofighter is understood to have an RCS under one square metre."[71] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square meters, and the estimated RCS of the American F-117 of 0.025 square meters.[78] Note that when the Typhoon or Rafale are carrying external stores, the stores themselves might have a radar cross section of two square meters, more than the aircraft itself from the frontal aspect.[79]
- If i am not mistaken this quote included a comparison to the F-22 also last night? IN sort, this article ave soo litle about the Typhoon except some project history and export history, you should focus on adding materail, instead of deleing what others write. 3 Americans, and 1 even in the US aerospace industry, are clearly against this - can Wiki check what contries mooderaters are from, because it seems to be highly relevant here, whether you face it or not. Before we can have a real discussion i would also like to know where Bzuk and Downtrip are from, USA/Europe or other place? I am from Europe, a country here not even related to the Typhoon -- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
If you wanted a real discussion about it downtrip you had copied what you deleted to here, instead of just removing it so nobody can see it:
In 2006 the aerospace/air force magazine "internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" [6] (IAPR) reported two RAF typhoons had been deployed to USA for OEU trials (Operational Evaluation Unit), and that these Typhoons had been flying against the F-22 at NAS China lake ( NAWS China Lake). The magazine reported the Eurofigter Typhoon had performed better than was expected against the US top stealth fighter, the F-22. The magazine wrote that it was no surprise the Typhoon had dominated "Within Visual Range" flight, but the Typhoon had surprised by getting a radar lock on the F-22 at a surprisingly long rate. According to IAPR the F-22’s cried off, claiming they were “unstealthed”, and after this the USAF cancelled the next day’s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagements (Beyond Visual Range).
This report has created a lot of controversy. Critics claim the Typhoon have never been near the F-22’s, but before this, on 27 September 2005, Eurofighter GmbH reported that the Typhoons had made their first transatlantic deployment in 2005, as part of 'Exercise High Rider' [7]. Eurofighter GmbH wrote: "Exercise High Rider 10 took place at the United States Naval Air Weapons Range China Lake in California", which is where IAPR said the engagements had taken place.
On 18 August 2006, the BBC NEWS reported: reports suggest that RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US" [8], but critics claim BBC World just repeats the AIPR source, which they see as a lie in the first place.
Critics argue there is no way the Typhoons could have been able to track the F-22’s in the first place, since the F-22's have been shaped to reduce their radar cross-section, but such problems have already been described by BBC World on December 22 1997:
“The aircraft is also equipped with an infra-red search and track system ( IRST) which will enable pilots to spot the enemy by detecting minute differences in temperature between the target and its background, making " stealth" aircraft visible. [9]
Hardcore critics still argue whether the engagements between the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-22 have ever happened, but on 24 April 2007 Flightglobal ( Flight International) also reported that RAF’s 17 Sqn OEU routinely has deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate along US fighters including the F-22 [10]. Air Vice Marshal David Walker, air officer commanding 1 Group, which oversees operations of the RAF's strike aircraft fleets, said: “The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working". Asked how the fighters compare, walker says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is”. And to this BAE Typhoon project test pilot Mark Bowman said: "The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth, Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs) 15:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- It not just reported, though this would be easy with all the sources, instead headline says "controversial", to please the Americans wiki moderators here, though you seem to have no sources to contradict it? Perhaps the official USAF note to the press, saying this never happened? BBC World reported it, but also here it says critics argue its the same report as IAPR, or from IAPR, eventhough i there are no such claims from other than american wiki users here? Have the Typhoon trained with the F-22, yes, you have a direct quote from Air Vice Marshal David Walker, and you know,yes 2 typhoons and 30 personel have been in the US to train with the F-22. Where are the links to former debates on IAPR, because im sure i have seen alot wiki socalled mooderators, saying there isnt even a source this ever took place, well there is now. There is no real arguments for why this should not be included, instead of silly claims from 3 Americans and 2 moods, whose origin is unknow for now, but common for them all is the patriotic vandalism against this article. Unless i see real sources, contradicting all these sources, instead of these silly claims from patriotic Ameirican wiki users, this will be put into article very soon again. 2 years since it was first reported, and yet still not even mentioned here, but just deleted again and again, and put to sleep with a "we need to agreee on this talk", though we all know, there will be no agreement. Stop this patriotec vandalism and the lock on debate afterwards, when you cant even find one single source that contradict these sources, except yourself. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 15:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is well reseached, presented in a way so you can see its still a controversial subject for some, several respected sources have reported on it, i fail to see any sources from any of you here that discredit these sources, except you own personal beleive that it never happened. I have read many of you former discussions with regards to this, and its all about, you doubting on BBC world and IAPR, Flight Global report two typhoons and 30 personal train with F-22, something American wiki-users have said they didnt belive all along. Find me sources to disprove these sources, and not just your own personal believe, and we can add these also, but stop deliting these sources and put a lock on this info, by refering to we have to agree. This is 2 years ago now, and your vandalism with deletion and then refering to disscussion on talk, is clarly a way to put a lock on this, and make sure it will never be descriped which have workedout wll foryou in 2 years now. You have never provided any sources that says this never happened, except you own personal believes. Its patriotic vandalism, and it should stop sooner than later. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Bzuk said: "I realize you have joined this forum relatively recently" - I have read this for long time without joining the debate, but i have seen how a little group seem to think they have a monopoly on what should be here and what not. One can only wonder why you seem to care so much more about deleting material, than to add new. Again i fail to understand how this article can include such statements as these: "The Typhoon's current ECR-90 radar is relatively easy to detect when operating, unlike a few more advanced radars", and yet nothing on the Typhoons infra red seach and track systems, which is one of the most advanced in the world. Try to focus on adding material than to continue your patriotic vandalism on this article. Find sources that contradict/discredit the above used sources as BBC world, IAPR, Fligt Global if you can, but stop deleting, simply because you as a person fail to/wont believe it. It's patriotic vandalism, and it has been here on this article for 2 years now, with noone commenting on it. Your modus operandi is to to delete it and then lock topic with a discussion you know will never produce an outcome, but this patriotic vandalism stops here-- Financialmodel ( talk) 16:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Who made this change to source?, its a direct change of what was written in the source, article now says:
This is not what IAPR wrote, which admin/wiki user changed this very important statement from distance to time? IAPR wrote:
That just another example of this patriotc vandalism we continue to see here, even when article is under observation. You cant delete the information now so instead, you will change statements from "radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long rate", to "radar lock for a surprisingly long period of time", why, because a radar lock on the F-22 on a long range would question the whole stealh principle of the F-22, which is now refered to as the invisible fighter you cant kill, because you cant kill what you cant see. No plane is suposed to get a radar lock on the top US stealth fighter at a long rate. Modus operandi here is to delete such information and refer to a common agreement, which will never happen, with the result of a succesfull deletion of sources and lock of discussion. This has been happening for 2 years, and it's patrotic vandalism in action as we speak. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 19:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
A content dispute has arisen as to whether to include details of alledged meetings between Eurofighter Typhoon & U.S. fighters - An Edit war has developed with attempts to get consensus on talk page failing, with one editor alleging US bias. Nigel Ish ( talk) 17:43, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've protected the page. I have to read over the discussion page and check the page history to figure out what's going on, but for now everyone will have to keep their edits limited to this page. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 18:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Fine. In summary:
Comment on Downtrip continued bias. The sources are clear, and there are several now. Downtrip cant find any sources that question these sources, except his own personal believe. In point two above he try to attack BBC, again questioning their statements, but again he fail to do so, he claim they must be lying, read:
But this is just another example of how Downtrip personal belief with no sources to question sources as BBC etc. bring him on thin ice. As is the overall conflict here, he delete valid sources, because he use his own personal opinion. He just claimed BBC was wrong again, because he belive there was no IRST for the Typhoon when this was reported, but as I shall shoow here, the Eurofighter had IRST already in 2005, read EADS, Munich 16 November 2005:
During a visit to the Manching facility of EADS Military Aircraft on 7th and 8th November, Major General Klaus L. Axelsen, Chief of the Royal Danish Air Force Air Materiel Command (AMC), and National Armament Director, flew the Eurofighter in a scheduled flight test sortie in which he experienced the overall capabilities of the aircraft. In particular, he participated in very demanding flight control system tests of the automatic recovery system and the Infra Red Search and Track system (IRST). IRST forms an important part of the overall integrated system suite of sensors within the Eurofighter Weapon System. In addition, as a demonstration of the Eurofighter’s superb handling capabilities and a significant achievement on his first flight, the General flew the aircraft throughout the entire mission, including the landing. Danish National Armament Director flight-tested the Eurofighter
.....the reasons for deletions are false claims and personal beliefs (with no sources to back it up) used in arguments by these F-22 patriots, as Downtrip just showed you here. He attack sources on personal beliefs and false claims, and from this he remove valid sources. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 17:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Facts are this is reported by valid sources, IAPR, BBC world, Flight international, soo far these patriotic vandals have not been able to present any sources that counter the statements from BBC World, IAPR and Flight International. Based on personal beliefs these sources have been deleted by a lot American wiki users for over a period of 2 years now, and then locked out with the argument such sources as BBC World and IAPR and Flight International required consensus. One needs just to look in the current version to watch this patriotic vandlism in action. Now that it cant be deleted, vandalism is made on the statement itself, which bothers these patriots, and is the reason for this patriotic vandalism. Read how current version have been changed from:
to
Why is this soo important for the vandals? Because a radar lock on the F-22 on a long range would question the whole stealh principle of the F-22, which is now refered to as the invisible fighter you cant kill, because you cant kill what you cant see. No plane is suposed to get a radar lock on the top US stealth fighter at a long rate. Modus operandi here is to delete such information and refer to a common agreement, which will never happen, with the result of a succesfull deletion of sources and lock of discussion. This has been happening for 2 years, and it's patrotic vandalism in action as we speak. Wiki should stop such patriotic vandalism. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 20:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a conflicted section also, and it's locked right now, why?
Because the whole principle of " X generation" for fighter jets, is a marketing tool, made up by Lockheed Martin, a US aerospace company. There is no such thing as "X generation fighter", its a meassure defined for marketing campains by Lockheed Martin, so you can make claims as such:
"The JSF is one of only two fifth generation aircraft. The other is the F-22 Raptor. Both aircraft are built by the US-based Lockheed Martin company." [21]
Just take a look at the page Downtrip refer to, and watch how the game is to brand the Typhoon as a 4 or 4,5 generation fighter", while F-22 and JSF will be branded as only fifth generation aircrafts. The fact that wiki even buy into this whole marketing trick, and let the patriots establish their own marketing playground, is questional in itself. It's spin, and wiki is taken hostage in this patiotic campain. Provide sources that counter the mentioned sources provided here, as BBC world, International Air Power Review (IAPR) or Flight International, if you you can, but soo far the so called "critics" of these sources seem to exist only as American user here on wiki. Stop this patriotic vandalism now, its not in the interest of wiki. -- Financialmodel ( talk) 20:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
to
- that the work of a vandal in action. Find out who made this edit, before it was now completly removed, and you have a vandal right there caught red handed-- Financialmodel ( talk) 21:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
FWIW Bzuk ( talk) 22:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC).
Bzuk said on that page: The reason for the query to an admin board was that the pattern of discussion resembles that of a former banned editor, (Wikizilla) who has appeared on the talk page and article previously with sock/meat puppets. How can that possibility be determined/eliminated? FWIW Bzuk (talk) 14:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC).
So now you try to ban me Bzuk, by linking me to someone who also complained over you patriotic vandalism? I wonder how you managed to have him banned? Same style? Your modus operandi is shamefull, you talk about how you can't question users origin, since you claim these are personal attacks, and yet you imply I am a former banned user, that should be banned. This is not even er personal attack, this is games with tricks so low i wonder how you can even watch yourself in the mirror talk 23:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Also this should be relevant if one wants to get a clear overview of the situation, though it will require quite some reading: Disputed cost and aversion to criticism. The same F-22 wiki editors behind the removal of these sources as BBC world, international Airpower Rewiew, and Flight Global, that report on tests between the Typhoon and F-22, also refuse valid sources from US Congress, regarding the cost of the F-22 project in that article, and the same editors dont find criticism nessesary, though such is to find from many corners. When will the such patriotic vandalism be questioned?-- Financialmodel ( talk) 21:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
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