Eudunda is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
The
Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.
Population Data
I find the population data to be very inaccurate (Although there is a census soon :D). Does anyone know of a place with regional population estimates in Australia?
Sellyminime (
talk)
04:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)reply
We use census counts on all Australian articles rather than estimates in order to maintain consistency. Interestingly, every time I replace an "estimated" population with a census figure, the estimate is much larger. My working theory is that all towns, consciously or unconsciously, overestimate their population. Cheers,
Mattinbgn (
talk)
05:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Okay, thanks for telling me. But I could swear there's about 900 to 1000 people in Eudunda. Yesterday I actually stood at the lookout tower, and counted how many houses there were, multiplied it by the 2006 census people-per-household number, and came up with far greater than the number shown. Well, seems like the town must be growing then.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: The move request is quite correct, there's no need for disambiguation if there's only one Eudunda. Those opposing don't seem to understand our naming conventions, and consensus is with the proposal.
Fences&Windows11:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose - So?
Eudunda redirects to here, and the current article name is much more informative, and complies with the Wikipedia Protocol. I don't see how "It can be x" is a valid reason for it to change
Sellyminime (
talk)
10:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
If so, why not name it
Eudunda, South Australia, Australia, Oceania, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe? That makes it so much more accurate than the current one, don't you think? Eudunda is commonly referred to as Eudunda, no one calls it Eudunda, South Australia. You'd only name it as it is if in real life people named it Eudunda, South Australia. In thus U.S., there are towns and counties with unique names, but with the , state format as people there refer to it with the whole name, whereas they don't call Eudunda Eudunda, South Australia, people popularly call it Eudunda. JaumeBG10:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Because
Eudunda could refer to anything, whereas
Eudunda, South Australia clearly refers to a location. From
WP:AT "Article names should be familiar to the reader, unambiguous...".
Also, "Most Australian town/city/suburb articles are at [[Town, State]] , e.g. Ipswich, Queensland, although there is no longer agreement that this convention is always to be followed when disambiguation is not required – state capitals and certain other places (decided by discussion at article talk pages) do not require the ", State" suffix, as with Adelaide and Toowoomba. (Note also Mungindi, which straddles two states.)"". Eudunda is clearly not recognisable to be in the list of exceptions to this rule.
Sellyminime (
talk)
10:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Sellyminime, by convention, each Wikipedia article title (unambiguously) reflects the name of the article topic; a title is not supposed to describe the topic (adding information to identify it as a place or location is descriptive, and says nothing about its name). The lead of an article, not the title, describes the topic. Only when disambiguation is necessary is descriptive information added to the title to distinguish a particular use of the name from other uses of the same name. No disambiguation is required here, and we should not wrongly convey that it is. By leaving this article at
Eudunda,_South_Australia we are wrongly conveying that it needs to disambiguated presumably because there are uses of "Eudanda". That's just misleading. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
23:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd like to point out, as I've cited above,
WP:AT clearly says Australian place names should include a state suffix unless it is notable enough on its own (Adelaide/Melbourne/Toowoomba wouldn't need suffixes). I'm sure Eudunda isn't that notable. Think of it as telling your American friend where you live. You'd say "Melbourne" and if they weren't ignorant (Okay, so "American" isn't a good example) they'd probably know what you're talking about. If you said "Eudunda" they'd say "Where's that?" and so they should. So "Eudunda, South Australia" is probably the best format for this. As far as I can tell, the standards for Australian place names are to be specific to the point where other information is unnecessary. It's obvious that South Australia is in Australia, and that Australia is in Oceania and so on, so that isn't needed, and the logic is invalid.
Sellyminime (
talk)
11:19, 26 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Support. Opposition clearly is inconsistent with consensus as reflected in Wikipedia policy and guidelines, and arguments in opposition should be weighed accordingly. First, no clearer case of
primary topic could be made; there simply is no other use for the name "Eudunda" except to refer to this topic of this article. Second, adding ", South Australia" to the title is blatant unnecessary precision. See the policyWP:TITLE which states: "Precision – titles are expected to use names and terms that are
precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously". "Eudunda" is "as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously"; "Eudunda, South Australia" is more precise than is necessary for that purpose. Finally, there is no reason specific to this case to
ignore the rules, so the rules should be followed. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
23:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)reply
You mustn't have read the Australian section of WP:TITLE, as it says "... Australian town/city/suburb articles are at [[Town, State]] , e.g. Ipswich, Queensland...", so it is following the rules.
SellyminimeTalk04:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm of the opinion that the rules that apply to all articles trump more specific rules when there is a conflict; that the more specific rules should indicate a name only when the general rules don't. In this case, the basic naming criteria indicates a clear and obvious name; there is no need to consult more specific rules at all, much less to come up with a different and less concise title. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
22:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Support, it doesn't matter how obscure something is, Wikipedia uses article titles simply to tell people what something's called, plus give any necessary disambiguation. Here no disambiguation is necessary, as there's nothing to disambiguate from, so adding the state is just unnecessary complication.--
Kotniski (
talk)
14:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Support-
WP:PRECISION is policy, which enjoys substantial consensus. The Australian naming convention, which would amount to an exception to it, does not. I see no good reason to favour a long article title to a short one or an overspecific article title to one that does the job with less fuss. What is the point of "distinguishing" this Eudunda from the exactly zero other Eudundas?
ReykYO!10:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Consensus appears to be strongly in favor of the move. Not only do those in support outnumber those opposed 8 (including nom) to 4 (or 2 to 1), but everyone in support cites, or relies implicitly on, policy and guidelines in their arguments (primarily
only as precise as necessary), while those who are opposed give arguments not based in policy and guidelines. Those opposed say:
"[The current title is] much more informative" Irrelevant; "informative" is not a
title naming criteria.
"[Current title] complies with the Wikipedia Protocol" What is "Wikipedia Protocol"?
"disambiguation should serve the interests of readers" What does that mean?
"most people will have no idea where this is" Irrelevant; informing readers where the subject place is is not a
title naming criteria.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Eudunda is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
The
Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.
Population Data
I find the population data to be very inaccurate (Although there is a census soon :D). Does anyone know of a place with regional population estimates in Australia?
Sellyminime (
talk)
04:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)reply
We use census counts on all Australian articles rather than estimates in order to maintain consistency. Interestingly, every time I replace an "estimated" population with a census figure, the estimate is much larger. My working theory is that all towns, consciously or unconsciously, overestimate their population. Cheers,
Mattinbgn (
talk)
05:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Okay, thanks for telling me. But I could swear there's about 900 to 1000 people in Eudunda. Yesterday I actually stood at the lookout tower, and counted how many houses there were, multiplied it by the 2006 census people-per-household number, and came up with far greater than the number shown. Well, seems like the town must be growing then.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: The move request is quite correct, there's no need for disambiguation if there's only one Eudunda. Those opposing don't seem to understand our naming conventions, and consensus is with the proposal.
Fences&Windows11:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose - So?
Eudunda redirects to here, and the current article name is much more informative, and complies with the Wikipedia Protocol. I don't see how "It can be x" is a valid reason for it to change
Sellyminime (
talk)
10:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
If so, why not name it
Eudunda, South Australia, Australia, Oceania, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe? That makes it so much more accurate than the current one, don't you think? Eudunda is commonly referred to as Eudunda, no one calls it Eudunda, South Australia. You'd only name it as it is if in real life people named it Eudunda, South Australia. In thus U.S., there are towns and counties with unique names, but with the , state format as people there refer to it with the whole name, whereas they don't call Eudunda Eudunda, South Australia, people popularly call it Eudunda. JaumeBG10:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Because
Eudunda could refer to anything, whereas
Eudunda, South Australia clearly refers to a location. From
WP:AT "Article names should be familiar to the reader, unambiguous...".
Also, "Most Australian town/city/suburb articles are at [[Town, State]] , e.g. Ipswich, Queensland, although there is no longer agreement that this convention is always to be followed when disambiguation is not required – state capitals and certain other places (decided by discussion at article talk pages) do not require the ", State" suffix, as with Adelaide and Toowoomba. (Note also Mungindi, which straddles two states.)"". Eudunda is clearly not recognisable to be in the list of exceptions to this rule.
Sellyminime (
talk)
10:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Sellyminime, by convention, each Wikipedia article title (unambiguously) reflects the name of the article topic; a title is not supposed to describe the topic (adding information to identify it as a place or location is descriptive, and says nothing about its name). The lead of an article, not the title, describes the topic. Only when disambiguation is necessary is descriptive information added to the title to distinguish a particular use of the name from other uses of the same name. No disambiguation is required here, and we should not wrongly convey that it is. By leaving this article at
Eudunda,_South_Australia we are wrongly conveying that it needs to disambiguated presumably because there are uses of "Eudanda". That's just misleading. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
23:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd like to point out, as I've cited above,
WP:AT clearly says Australian place names should include a state suffix unless it is notable enough on its own (Adelaide/Melbourne/Toowoomba wouldn't need suffixes). I'm sure Eudunda isn't that notable. Think of it as telling your American friend where you live. You'd say "Melbourne" and if they weren't ignorant (Okay, so "American" isn't a good example) they'd probably know what you're talking about. If you said "Eudunda" they'd say "Where's that?" and so they should. So "Eudunda, South Australia" is probably the best format for this. As far as I can tell, the standards for Australian place names are to be specific to the point where other information is unnecessary. It's obvious that South Australia is in Australia, and that Australia is in Oceania and so on, so that isn't needed, and the logic is invalid.
Sellyminime (
talk)
11:19, 26 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Support. Opposition clearly is inconsistent with consensus as reflected in Wikipedia policy and guidelines, and arguments in opposition should be weighed accordingly. First, no clearer case of
primary topic could be made; there simply is no other use for the name "Eudunda" except to refer to this topic of this article. Second, adding ", South Australia" to the title is blatant unnecessary precision. See the policyWP:TITLE which states: "Precision – titles are expected to use names and terms that are
precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously". "Eudunda" is "as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously"; "Eudunda, South Australia" is more precise than is necessary for that purpose. Finally, there is no reason specific to this case to
ignore the rules, so the rules should be followed. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
23:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)reply
You mustn't have read the Australian section of WP:TITLE, as it says "... Australian town/city/suburb articles are at [[Town, State]] , e.g. Ipswich, Queensland...", so it is following the rules.
SellyminimeTalk04:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm of the opinion that the rules that apply to all articles trump more specific rules when there is a conflict; that the more specific rules should indicate a name only when the general rules don't. In this case, the basic naming criteria indicates a clear and obvious name; there is no need to consult more specific rules at all, much less to come up with a different and less concise title. --
Born2cycle (
talk)
22:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Support, it doesn't matter how obscure something is, Wikipedia uses article titles simply to tell people what something's called, plus give any necessary disambiguation. Here no disambiguation is necessary, as there's nothing to disambiguate from, so adding the state is just unnecessary complication.--
Kotniski (
talk)
14:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Support-
WP:PRECISION is policy, which enjoys substantial consensus. The Australian naming convention, which would amount to an exception to it, does not. I see no good reason to favour a long article title to a short one or an overspecific article title to one that does the job with less fuss. What is the point of "distinguishing" this Eudunda from the exactly zero other Eudundas?
ReykYO!10:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Consensus appears to be strongly in favor of the move. Not only do those in support outnumber those opposed 8 (including nom) to 4 (or 2 to 1), but everyone in support cites, or relies implicitly on, policy and guidelines in their arguments (primarily
only as precise as necessary), while those who are opposed give arguments not based in policy and guidelines. Those opposed say:
"[The current title is] much more informative" Irrelevant; "informative" is not a
title naming criteria.
"[Current title] complies with the Wikipedia Protocol" What is "Wikipedia Protocol"?
"disambiguation should serve the interests of readers" What does that mean?
"most people will have no idea where this is" Irrelevant; informing readers where the subject place is is not a
title naming criteria.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.