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This article is a content fork from Catholic Church and abortion (see WP:SPINOFF). Its content at the old article has been replaced by a short summary. In the course of organizing information for this article, I considered these issues:
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 00:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, be so good as to indicate more clearly why you completely reverted another editor's work. In your inimitable style, you say in your edit summary: "no, you will not use fringe sources to write about living people, and you will not use other people's words and claim they are your own. and let's use organization that makes sense, instead of organization that makes no sense". So please:
You will see that I have been much more precise in my indications of what I find needing correction in your text. Esoglou ( talk) 21:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Contrary to Esoglou's claim, we cannot in fact say that "the reason is about interpretations of Catholic teaching and canon law." The sources recognize that these controversies have to do with the RCC's position on abortion. The controversies don't come about because of conflicts over the interpretation of canon law; most sources don't even mention that there's a disagreement. If there's another way that you'd prefer of including the information about the RCC's opposition to abortion rights, which is mentioned in every source as the disagreement leading to the event, feel free to suggest it, but don't tag-bomb the lead on the wholly spurious grounds that you personally interpret the debate to be about something different. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, why have you again inserted in the article the claim, regarding some time between 2004 and 2008, that "conservative bishops and archbishops including Raymond Burke of St. Louis, Thomas Olmsted of Phoenix, and Charles J. Chaput of Denver see ecclesiastical penalties as a means of promoting the church's position on abortion (giving Espresso as source) and some declared that they would act on their own initiative (giving The Tablet as source)"?
Espresso clearly does not say that Olmsted and Chaput "see ecclesiastical penalties as a means of promoting the church's position on abortion", and does not clearly say that even Burke does. It does not even mention Olmsted. And no source says of these two what you say not only of them but also, just as sourcelessly, of unspecified others, suggesting that the view you present is that of even more American bishops than the three you name.
The Tablet states that "two" - it expressly says "two", not "some", and specifies them as Olmsted and Chaput - American bishops said they would act on their own initiative. The Tablet is also the source of the information on Wuerl, which you seem to attribute to Espresso.
Isn't the text you keep reverting more accurate? Esoglou ( talk) 12:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if Roscelese would be so kind as to indicate what is the source that she calls an "anti-Sebelius press release" and that in her view violates WP:BLP. This is my second request for that kindness. Instead of answering my first request, which I accompanied with an offer to remove it without question (an offer that because of her attitude I see as no longer binding), she has now accused me of having "added *more* non-BLP-compliant sources". The two that I added were chosen because of being unrelated to the Catholic Church. One is The Atlantic magazine. The other is the Kansas Liberty publication, which I understand is a conservative newspaper, but does that mean that it cannot be trusted to report accurately what Archbishop Naumann wrote? Would Roscelese say why she thinks that both of these are "non-BLP-compliant sources"? And would she say which of the other three sources cited is the "anti-Sebelius press release" she speaks of and quote the WP:BLP-violating use I am supposed to have made of it. The three sources are National Catholic Reporter, Catholic News Service, and Catholic News Agency. I think each and every one of them is a reliable source for the statement "Kansas City Archbishop Joseph Naumann asked that Kathleen Sebelius no longer receive Holy Communion because of her position on abortion", which is what they were meant to support. Unfortunately, because of the insertion of the two secular sources, they might at present be thought to support the statement of the Kansas Liberty publication, but I will willingly move them to a more appropriate place in the section on Kathleen Sebelius that Roscelese keeps deleting on the pretext that some one or more (but not all?) of the sources are in some unspecified way non-WP:BLP-compliant. Esoglou ( talk) 20:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
The opening phrase claims that what gave rise to the controversies considered in this article is the Church's teaching against abortion, as if the politicians' opposition to the Church's teaching were not also a factor. Ample time has been given for presentation of a reliable source to support this claim, but I will wait a little longer before removing it. Esoglou ( talk) 19:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Bbb23 ( talk) 22:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)The Roman Catholic Church, which opposes abortion, has criticized Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. In most cases, Church officials questioned whether communion should be given to the politicians. In a few cases, excommunication was suggested; however, in more cases, officials stated that the politicians should refrain from receiving communion.
I'm getting a little lost in this discussion, so I started actually reading the article (after all, the lead is supposed to summarize the body), and one thing that stuck out for me immediately is that much of it is poorly worded, and I had trouble following it. So, rather than continuing this discussion about the lead, I'm going to try to work on the wording of the article and making sure it's also source-compliant.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 18:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't have a lot of time today to focus on this article, but I just reverted major removals by Roscelese that were unwarranted. You need to obtain some consensus for your assertions about sources and material. Many of them, at least in my view, are ill-founded and frankly POV. A lot of the Catholic news sources are perfectly reliable for what they are supporting, even if they might not be reliable for other kinds of assertions. Your opinion about the Washington Times is your opinion but it's not a basis for removal. I'm not going to list all the other problems with your edits.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 19:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
There are obviously a lot more issues than these, but I can't fathom why you, Bbb23, would write this; and even more, having seen it corrected, why you would restore it.
Your text:
Two months before the 2008 presidential election, the issue of how the Church and local dioceses viewed pro-choice American politicians was used by different political factions seeking Catholic votes.
My text:
These statements of intent from church authorities have sometimes led American Catholic voters to vote for candidates who wish to ban abortion, rather than pro-choice candidates who support other Catholic Church positions, such as war, health care, immigration, or lowering the abortion rate.
The source, paraphrased:
Voter unsure of whom to vote for, aware that Dem positions on war, immigration, health care, reducing abortion closer to Catholic teaching; hears about bishops' punishment of Democrats, decides to vote Republican. Both sides campaigning for Catholic votes (no longer a bloc) in swing districts. Some pro-Obama because he's pro-labor or because the sum total of Catholicism isn't opposing abortion rights, some pro-McCain because he's anti-abortion-rights or because Obama is black. Voter guides.
This does not at all say that either campaign is using the communion issue in their quest for Catholic votes. We could discuss both sides' campaign for Catholic votes if this were just about Catholics and elections, or even pro-choice Catholic politicians and elections, but it's not within the scope of the article as currently defined. What the source says is that communion (the article topic) is leading voters to change their minds.
Another place.
Your text:
In 2004, the issue of whether communion should be refused to American Catholic politicians who voted for legalizing abortion was described as being peculiar to the United States.
I know Esoglou is really intent on overemphasizing that it's just in the United States, but isn't the fact that it's happening more important? Why would you start with "the issue was described as" (also: weaselly) without first saying that there was an issue? It's just bad writing.
And again.
Your text:
In 2008, Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis and subsequently assigned to the Vatican, said that communion should not be given to such politicians because it would be a sacrilege and would lead other Catholics to to think that public support for abortion is not a mortal sin.
We can't write with the assumption that the audience is made up of anti-abortion Catholics. Why would communion be a sacrilege? Why would Catholics be led to think that being pro-choice is not a mortal sin? Is being pro-choice generally considered a mortal sin?
My text:
In 2008, Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis and subsequently assigned to the Vatican, said that communion should not be given to such politicians because he considers support for abortion rights to be a mortal sin that makes a person unfit for communion, and to prevent other Catholics from thinking, because they see that pro-choice politicians can receive communion, that being pro-choice is an acceptable political position.
My text explains, for the majority of readers who are not Catholic, that one isn't supposed to receive communion in a state of sin, and that it is Burke's view that being pro-choice is a mortal sin. It also uses the more accurate "pro-choice" instead of the phrase "support for abortion" generally used by opponents of abortion rights, which suggests opposition to not having abortions. ("Support for abortion rights" also conveys the necessary distinction.)
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
My summary sentence was based on that paragraph, which seemed to sum up the NYT article for the purpose of the assertion in our article. I don't usually say this, but here I will also say that my non-response to your other points is not because I concede them, just that I don't have the time - and to some extent the inclination to spend the time - to respond.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 22:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)A struggle within the church over how Catholic voters should think about abortion is once again flaring up just as political partisans prepare an all-out battle for the votes of Mass-going Catholics in swing-state towns like Scranton.
Here is a story about Douglas Kmiec, who is anti-abortion but supported Barack Obama, being denied communion. May or may not be useful as Kmiec is not a politician himself. [2] – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, please indicate the rationale behind your calling CNS News, Reuters and PRNewswire unreliable sources and mere press releases, as you did here and also the rationale behind your claim here that these sources are inappropriate for a biography of a living person. Esoglou ( talk) 08:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
NB: The above comment acknowledges that Roscelese may have a point in invoking WP:UNDUE on the Talk Page of a different article. If only one organization called for Pelosi's excommunication, we should consider whether the call for excommunication was a significant event worth reporting here.
This is clearly a notable topic, but the title is a bit of a vague mess. I wonder if there's a simpler way of phrasing it. What about Refusal of communion to Catholic politicians? That drops 'excommunication' from the title, but almost all of these cases are about refusal of communion rather than excommunication, so it doesn't really need to be there. More problematically, it also drops 'abortion', which perhaps should remain there; but there isn't any easy way of mentioning it. It could be Refusal of communion to pro-choice politicians, but 'pro-choice'/'pro-life' are politicised terms and shouldn't appear in article titles. Refusal of communion to politicians who support abortion rights is even more awkward than the current title, and arguably still POV. Anyone else have any suggestions? Robofish ( talk) 21:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Should we include the view of Pope Francis on this topic? He was part of a group of Latin American bishops that released a statement six years ago to the effect that pro-choice politicians cannot receive communion (mentioned here), but claims that he has reiterated the position come only from inadmissible anti-abortion sources. (They appear to originate from a letter of the Pope's which recommends that the Argentinian bishops follow the 2007 document, but the document contained a lot of other things and the 2013 letter doesn't single out abortion.) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I questioned the claim that, "in most cases Church officials have threatened to refuse communion to these politicians", i.e. to politicians who promote legislation allowing freedom to abort. My questioning tag was removed
Catholic bishops have stated that all such politicians should refrain from presenting themselves for Communion. Am I wrong in thinking that the article mentions a total of two cases in which this threat was uttered against such politicians and one in which it was applied? I must surely be wrong. Even if I am, what evidence is there that those cases were more numerous than those in which (all) such politicians were told they should refrain from presenting themselves, with no threat to reject them if they did not refrain, a measure that "should be reserved for extraordinary cases of public scandal"?
The blanket reversal unjustifiably undid other edits also, but experience shows that it is by far the best to raise only one point at a time. Esoglou ( talk) 15:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Why was the section heading for “Catholic rationale regarding communion” deleted? It was a lot clearer to have this as a separate section. Also, later, text explaining the Catholic rationale regarding communion was deleted. The rewording that remains does not explain Catholic rationale clearly. Additionally, the Catholic rationale regarding communion doesn’t belong in the United States section, because this rationale applies to the Catholic Church in general and not just the US. Also, why were the "weasel words" and "citation needed" tags deleted without first resolving issue on talk page? -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 02:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding current disagreement over whether to characterize threats to refuse communion as “most cases” or "a few cases", I propose the following alternate wording:
The Roman Catholic Church opposes abortion. There have been cases where Church officials have threatened to refuse communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. In some cases, officials have stated that the politicians should refrain from receiving communion; in others, excommunication has been suggested.
To me, this seems a reasonable compromise, until or unless someone can come up with a source that shows the total number of Catholic politicians who support abortion rights in relation to total number who have been singled out with threats of refused communion.-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 00:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Esoglou, multiple times now you've tried to add this poorly sourced material and at no point have you attempted to make a case for, or gain consensus for, its inclusion. In fact, you've claimed that it was deleted "unjustifiably" when clear and policy-based reasons were provided for its removal, but have made no attempt to provide policy-based reasons for your repeated reverts. I must remind you again that Wikipedia is not a promotional arm of the Catholic Church and that we follow policies on reliable sourcing and due weight, rather than reprinting for free the sort of thing that one pays a PR agent for. Now, make your case and gain consensus for this change. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 13:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Apart from Roscelese's claims of "quote farm" and "bad sources" Binksternet has raised a different objection:
@ Rms125a@hotmail.com: as I mentioned in my edit summary and in response to your post on my talk page, the no-synthesis policy prevents editors from drawing together disparate sources to reach an original conclusion. It absolutely does not prevent the inclusion of analysis from reliable sources. Please refresh your memory of WP:NOR; I suggest you also revert your edit once you've read up on why your reasoning was invalid. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Rms125a@hotmail.com: Thus far, no other users have chimed in to support your bold edit. Are there other, less bold, changes you might suggest? If you can propose changes that have a chance of gaining consensus, compromise might be possible. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 03:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Roscelese is right on target: WP:SYN clearly and unequivocally applies only to Wikipedia editors. We expect and require scholars, researchers, authors, and others who create reliable sources to conduct synthesis. If that is your only objection to material then that is entirely insufficient reason to exclude it from an article. You need to advance other arguments e.g., it's poorly done synthesis contradicted by the vast majority of reliable sources, it's such a minority position that it doesn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedia article, it's not really a reliable source. ElKevbo ( talk) 05:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
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What utter horse puckey. The only reason the Eucharist would be denied or excommunication imposed would be in accordance with the teaching of the magisterium and the relevant canon law. There's no other reason to do it. And my edit made no claim about whether it was ultimately "justified" or not. I only dealt with the basis on which the decision would be made. "Since the Church is opposed to abortion" is a hand-wavy way of saying the exact same thing. Deus vult! Crusadestudent ( talk) 03:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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Uh, CMA here, but I reverted the insertion of "pro-abortion" because it seemed to be vandalism. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 18:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
...like we do have, and have had, incidents of actual refusal of communion, not just higher-ups saying they would or that their underlings should? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 06:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholic-priest-says-pedophilia-doesnt-kill-anyone-but-abortion-does/
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:56, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Elizium23: I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to cover Catholics successfully receiving communion, even if fringe activists write blog posts opposing the idea? Surely this is more relevant than Biden's weekly reception of communion, in that the specter of communion denial is being raised again and causing actual conflict? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
I think we might want to do a little more with the article's material on pro-choice politicians successfully receiving communion. As I said earlier, that's such a "dog bites man" situation (ie. not newsworthy), in an article about the unusual and newsworthy thing of bishops using communion denial to make a splashy political gesture, that it seems to me like "So-and-so went to church and got communion" doesn't contribute much to the article on its own. We should look back at the sources and see how they frame it. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 15:11, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't have time to add this now, but putting it here for later. I only skimmed the articles, but relevant parts seem to be the (possible?) end of denial of communion as a recurring thing, the idea that it was an especially American foible that caused conflict with the Vatican, and the reiterated idea that pro-choice and pro-gay-rights doctors and politicians should not receive communion.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/11/17/catholic-bishops-communion-vote-biden/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/catholic-bishops-biden-communion.html
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Luigi Albert Maria: I've removed your note again because it violates our policy on original research by failing to include a reliable source relating the content to the article topic. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Roscelese: Ok, understood. Maybe I could rephrase the citation, simply pointing to the cited documents to clarify the position of the Church in matters of access to Communion for non Catholics. Luigi Albert Maria ( talk) 12:53, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
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Eucharist denial to Catholic politicians over abortion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is a content fork from Catholic Church and abortion (see WP:SPINOFF). Its content at the old article has been replaced by a short summary. In the course of organizing information for this article, I considered these issues:
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 00:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, be so good as to indicate more clearly why you completely reverted another editor's work. In your inimitable style, you say in your edit summary: "no, you will not use fringe sources to write about living people, and you will not use other people's words and claim they are your own. and let's use organization that makes sense, instead of organization that makes no sense". So please:
You will see that I have been much more precise in my indications of what I find needing correction in your text. Esoglou ( talk) 21:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Contrary to Esoglou's claim, we cannot in fact say that "the reason is about interpretations of Catholic teaching and canon law." The sources recognize that these controversies have to do with the RCC's position on abortion. The controversies don't come about because of conflicts over the interpretation of canon law; most sources don't even mention that there's a disagreement. If there's another way that you'd prefer of including the information about the RCC's opposition to abortion rights, which is mentioned in every source as the disagreement leading to the event, feel free to suggest it, but don't tag-bomb the lead on the wholly spurious grounds that you personally interpret the debate to be about something different. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, why have you again inserted in the article the claim, regarding some time between 2004 and 2008, that "conservative bishops and archbishops including Raymond Burke of St. Louis, Thomas Olmsted of Phoenix, and Charles J. Chaput of Denver see ecclesiastical penalties as a means of promoting the church's position on abortion (giving Espresso as source) and some declared that they would act on their own initiative (giving The Tablet as source)"?
Espresso clearly does not say that Olmsted and Chaput "see ecclesiastical penalties as a means of promoting the church's position on abortion", and does not clearly say that even Burke does. It does not even mention Olmsted. And no source says of these two what you say not only of them but also, just as sourcelessly, of unspecified others, suggesting that the view you present is that of even more American bishops than the three you name.
The Tablet states that "two" - it expressly says "two", not "some", and specifies them as Olmsted and Chaput - American bishops said they would act on their own initiative. The Tablet is also the source of the information on Wuerl, which you seem to attribute to Espresso.
Isn't the text you keep reverting more accurate? Esoglou ( talk) 12:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if Roscelese would be so kind as to indicate what is the source that she calls an "anti-Sebelius press release" and that in her view violates WP:BLP. This is my second request for that kindness. Instead of answering my first request, which I accompanied with an offer to remove it without question (an offer that because of her attitude I see as no longer binding), she has now accused me of having "added *more* non-BLP-compliant sources". The two that I added were chosen because of being unrelated to the Catholic Church. One is The Atlantic magazine. The other is the Kansas Liberty publication, which I understand is a conservative newspaper, but does that mean that it cannot be trusted to report accurately what Archbishop Naumann wrote? Would Roscelese say why she thinks that both of these are "non-BLP-compliant sources"? And would she say which of the other three sources cited is the "anti-Sebelius press release" she speaks of and quote the WP:BLP-violating use I am supposed to have made of it. The three sources are National Catholic Reporter, Catholic News Service, and Catholic News Agency. I think each and every one of them is a reliable source for the statement "Kansas City Archbishop Joseph Naumann asked that Kathleen Sebelius no longer receive Holy Communion because of her position on abortion", which is what they were meant to support. Unfortunately, because of the insertion of the two secular sources, they might at present be thought to support the statement of the Kansas Liberty publication, but I will willingly move them to a more appropriate place in the section on Kathleen Sebelius that Roscelese keeps deleting on the pretext that some one or more (but not all?) of the sources are in some unspecified way non-WP:BLP-compliant. Esoglou ( talk) 20:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
The opening phrase claims that what gave rise to the controversies considered in this article is the Church's teaching against abortion, as if the politicians' opposition to the Church's teaching were not also a factor. Ample time has been given for presentation of a reliable source to support this claim, but I will wait a little longer before removing it. Esoglou ( talk) 19:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
-- Bbb23 ( talk) 22:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)The Roman Catholic Church, which opposes abortion, has criticized Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. In most cases, Church officials questioned whether communion should be given to the politicians. In a few cases, excommunication was suggested; however, in more cases, officials stated that the politicians should refrain from receiving communion.
I'm getting a little lost in this discussion, so I started actually reading the article (after all, the lead is supposed to summarize the body), and one thing that stuck out for me immediately is that much of it is poorly worded, and I had trouble following it. So, rather than continuing this discussion about the lead, I'm going to try to work on the wording of the article and making sure it's also source-compliant.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 18:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't have a lot of time today to focus on this article, but I just reverted major removals by Roscelese that were unwarranted. You need to obtain some consensus for your assertions about sources and material. Many of them, at least in my view, are ill-founded and frankly POV. A lot of the Catholic news sources are perfectly reliable for what they are supporting, even if they might not be reliable for other kinds of assertions. Your opinion about the Washington Times is your opinion but it's not a basis for removal. I'm not going to list all the other problems with your edits.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 19:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
There are obviously a lot more issues than these, but I can't fathom why you, Bbb23, would write this; and even more, having seen it corrected, why you would restore it.
Your text:
Two months before the 2008 presidential election, the issue of how the Church and local dioceses viewed pro-choice American politicians was used by different political factions seeking Catholic votes.
My text:
These statements of intent from church authorities have sometimes led American Catholic voters to vote for candidates who wish to ban abortion, rather than pro-choice candidates who support other Catholic Church positions, such as war, health care, immigration, or lowering the abortion rate.
The source, paraphrased:
Voter unsure of whom to vote for, aware that Dem positions on war, immigration, health care, reducing abortion closer to Catholic teaching; hears about bishops' punishment of Democrats, decides to vote Republican. Both sides campaigning for Catholic votes (no longer a bloc) in swing districts. Some pro-Obama because he's pro-labor or because the sum total of Catholicism isn't opposing abortion rights, some pro-McCain because he's anti-abortion-rights or because Obama is black. Voter guides.
This does not at all say that either campaign is using the communion issue in their quest for Catholic votes. We could discuss both sides' campaign for Catholic votes if this were just about Catholics and elections, or even pro-choice Catholic politicians and elections, but it's not within the scope of the article as currently defined. What the source says is that communion (the article topic) is leading voters to change their minds.
Another place.
Your text:
In 2004, the issue of whether communion should be refused to American Catholic politicians who voted for legalizing abortion was described as being peculiar to the United States.
I know Esoglou is really intent on overemphasizing that it's just in the United States, but isn't the fact that it's happening more important? Why would you start with "the issue was described as" (also: weaselly) without first saying that there was an issue? It's just bad writing.
And again.
Your text:
In 2008, Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis and subsequently assigned to the Vatican, said that communion should not be given to such politicians because it would be a sacrilege and would lead other Catholics to to think that public support for abortion is not a mortal sin.
We can't write with the assumption that the audience is made up of anti-abortion Catholics. Why would communion be a sacrilege? Why would Catholics be led to think that being pro-choice is not a mortal sin? Is being pro-choice generally considered a mortal sin?
My text:
In 2008, Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis and subsequently assigned to the Vatican, said that communion should not be given to such politicians because he considers support for abortion rights to be a mortal sin that makes a person unfit for communion, and to prevent other Catholics from thinking, because they see that pro-choice politicians can receive communion, that being pro-choice is an acceptable political position.
My text explains, for the majority of readers who are not Catholic, that one isn't supposed to receive communion in a state of sin, and that it is Burke's view that being pro-choice is a mortal sin. It also uses the more accurate "pro-choice" instead of the phrase "support for abortion" generally used by opponents of abortion rights, which suggests opposition to not having abortions. ("Support for abortion rights" also conveys the necessary distinction.)
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
My summary sentence was based on that paragraph, which seemed to sum up the NYT article for the purpose of the assertion in our article. I don't usually say this, but here I will also say that my non-response to your other points is not because I concede them, just that I don't have the time - and to some extent the inclination to spend the time - to respond.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 22:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)A struggle within the church over how Catholic voters should think about abortion is once again flaring up just as political partisans prepare an all-out battle for the votes of Mass-going Catholics in swing-state towns like Scranton.
Here is a story about Douglas Kmiec, who is anti-abortion but supported Barack Obama, being denied communion. May or may not be useful as Kmiec is not a politician himself. [2] – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Roscelese, please indicate the rationale behind your calling CNS News, Reuters and PRNewswire unreliable sources and mere press releases, as you did here and also the rationale behind your claim here that these sources are inappropriate for a biography of a living person. Esoglou ( talk) 08:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
NB: The above comment acknowledges that Roscelese may have a point in invoking WP:UNDUE on the Talk Page of a different article. If only one organization called for Pelosi's excommunication, we should consider whether the call for excommunication was a significant event worth reporting here.
This is clearly a notable topic, but the title is a bit of a vague mess. I wonder if there's a simpler way of phrasing it. What about Refusal of communion to Catholic politicians? That drops 'excommunication' from the title, but almost all of these cases are about refusal of communion rather than excommunication, so it doesn't really need to be there. More problematically, it also drops 'abortion', which perhaps should remain there; but there isn't any easy way of mentioning it. It could be Refusal of communion to pro-choice politicians, but 'pro-choice'/'pro-life' are politicised terms and shouldn't appear in article titles. Refusal of communion to politicians who support abortion rights is even more awkward than the current title, and arguably still POV. Anyone else have any suggestions? Robofish ( talk) 21:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Should we include the view of Pope Francis on this topic? He was part of a group of Latin American bishops that released a statement six years ago to the effect that pro-choice politicians cannot receive communion (mentioned here), but claims that he has reiterated the position come only from inadmissible anti-abortion sources. (They appear to originate from a letter of the Pope's which recommends that the Argentinian bishops follow the 2007 document, but the document contained a lot of other things and the 2013 letter doesn't single out abortion.) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I questioned the claim that, "in most cases Church officials have threatened to refuse communion to these politicians", i.e. to politicians who promote legislation allowing freedom to abort. My questioning tag was removed
Catholic bishops have stated that all such politicians should refrain from presenting themselves for Communion. Am I wrong in thinking that the article mentions a total of two cases in which this threat was uttered against such politicians and one in which it was applied? I must surely be wrong. Even if I am, what evidence is there that those cases were more numerous than those in which (all) such politicians were told they should refrain from presenting themselves, with no threat to reject them if they did not refrain, a measure that "should be reserved for extraordinary cases of public scandal"?
The blanket reversal unjustifiably undid other edits also, but experience shows that it is by far the best to raise only one point at a time. Esoglou ( talk) 15:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Why was the section heading for “Catholic rationale regarding communion” deleted? It was a lot clearer to have this as a separate section. Also, later, text explaining the Catholic rationale regarding communion was deleted. The rewording that remains does not explain Catholic rationale clearly. Additionally, the Catholic rationale regarding communion doesn’t belong in the United States section, because this rationale applies to the Catholic Church in general and not just the US. Also, why were the "weasel words" and "citation needed" tags deleted without first resolving issue on talk page? -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 02:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding current disagreement over whether to characterize threats to refuse communion as “most cases” or "a few cases", I propose the following alternate wording:
The Roman Catholic Church opposes abortion. There have been cases where Church officials have threatened to refuse communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. In some cases, officials have stated that the politicians should refrain from receiving communion; in others, excommunication has been suggested.
To me, this seems a reasonable compromise, until or unless someone can come up with a source that shows the total number of Catholic politicians who support abortion rights in relation to total number who have been singled out with threats of refused communion.-- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 00:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Esoglou, multiple times now you've tried to add this poorly sourced material and at no point have you attempted to make a case for, or gain consensus for, its inclusion. In fact, you've claimed that it was deleted "unjustifiably" when clear and policy-based reasons were provided for its removal, but have made no attempt to provide policy-based reasons for your repeated reverts. I must remind you again that Wikipedia is not a promotional arm of the Catholic Church and that we follow policies on reliable sourcing and due weight, rather than reprinting for free the sort of thing that one pays a PR agent for. Now, make your case and gain consensus for this change. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 13:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Apart from Roscelese's claims of "quote farm" and "bad sources" Binksternet has raised a different objection:
@ Rms125a@hotmail.com: as I mentioned in my edit summary and in response to your post on my talk page, the no-synthesis policy prevents editors from drawing together disparate sources to reach an original conclusion. It absolutely does not prevent the inclusion of analysis from reliable sources. Please refresh your memory of WP:NOR; I suggest you also revert your edit once you've read up on why your reasoning was invalid. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Rms125a@hotmail.com: Thus far, no other users have chimed in to support your bold edit. Are there other, less bold, changes you might suggest? If you can propose changes that have a chance of gaining consensus, compromise might be possible. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 03:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Roscelese is right on target: WP:SYN clearly and unequivocally applies only to Wikipedia editors. We expect and require scholars, researchers, authors, and others who create reliable sources to conduct synthesis. If that is your only objection to material then that is entirely insufficient reason to exclude it from an article. You need to advance other arguments e.g., it's poorly done synthesis contradicted by the vast majority of reliable sources, it's such a minority position that it doesn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedia article, it's not really a reliable source. ElKevbo ( talk) 05:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
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What utter horse puckey. The only reason the Eucharist would be denied or excommunication imposed would be in accordance with the teaching of the magisterium and the relevant canon law. There's no other reason to do it. And my edit made no claim about whether it was ultimately "justified" or not. I only dealt with the basis on which the decision would be made. "Since the Church is opposed to abortion" is a hand-wavy way of saying the exact same thing. Deus vult! Crusadestudent ( talk) 03:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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Uh, CMA here, but I reverted the insertion of "pro-abortion" because it seemed to be vandalism. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 18:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
...like we do have, and have had, incidents of actual refusal of communion, not just higher-ups saying they would or that their underlings should? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 06:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholic-priest-says-pedophilia-doesnt-kill-anyone-but-abortion-does/
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:56, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Elizium23: I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to cover Catholics successfully receiving communion, even if fringe activists write blog posts opposing the idea? Surely this is more relevant than Biden's weekly reception of communion, in that the specter of communion denial is being raised again and causing actual conflict? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
I think we might want to do a little more with the article's material on pro-choice politicians successfully receiving communion. As I said earlier, that's such a "dog bites man" situation (ie. not newsworthy), in an article about the unusual and newsworthy thing of bishops using communion denial to make a splashy political gesture, that it seems to me like "So-and-so went to church and got communion" doesn't contribute much to the article on its own. We should look back at the sources and see how they frame it. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 15:11, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't have time to add this now, but putting it here for later. I only skimmed the articles, but relevant parts seem to be the (possible?) end of denial of communion as a recurring thing, the idea that it was an especially American foible that caused conflict with the Vatican, and the reiterated idea that pro-choice and pro-gay-rights doctors and politicians should not receive communion.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/11/17/catholic-bishops-communion-vote-biden/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/catholic-bishops-biden-communion.html
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Luigi Albert Maria: I've removed your note again because it violates our policy on original research by failing to include a reliable source relating the content to the article topic. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Roscelese: Ok, understood. Maybe I could rephrase the citation, simply pointing to the cited documents to clarify the position of the Church in matters of access to Communion for non Catholics. Luigi Albert Maria ( talk) 12:53, 5 December 2021 (UTC)