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This article contains a translation of Ernst Krenek from de.wikipedia. |
Are the cigarettes relevant, and is it known that they were named after the opera? - Ar 18:28, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
I think the cigarettes are relevant- it's an interesting tidbit of information that demonstrates his popularity. Could we get a picture? (Of him, not the cigarettes) Splat 02:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a picture. Splat 06:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've undone a reversion by kleinzach, who informs me there is an established practice of ordering works by date of premiere instead of composition and opus number. If this is so, he may reorder them without removing the composition dates. Sparafucil ( talk) 07:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we try and refocus on the problem here?
Entries like: Karl V, op. 73 (1933, Prague 1938; revised 1954) are unintelligible. What does 1933 signify? No-one will know. On the other hand a standard listing e.g. Die Juxheirat, 21 December 1904, Theater an der Wien, Vienna is clear and unambiguous. (Having composition dates is of course useful if the information is added in a clearly understood way). -- Kleinzach ( talk) 02:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, the following bit is problematic. Since it has been restored after my removal, I am raising it here:
On March 6, one day after the Nazis gained control of the Reichstag, Krenek's incidental music to Goethe's Triumph der Empsindsamkeit had to be withdrawn
What is "gained control of the Reichstag" supposed to mean?
Jerome says they became the "controlling force of government" but that isn't actually true.
What actually happened on March 5 is that there were elections to the Reichstag. The NSDAP won 44% of the seats - hence they did not win a majority. Hitler had been already appointed Chancellor on January 30 and the Fire Decree had suspended civic rights on February 28. Also, the Reichstag elected on March 5 first met on March 21 so actually the 44% went effective only then.
The other question is how this is relevant to Ernst Krenek? Did the Nazi government or someone else wait until after the elections before withdrawing the musich? Who actually was responsible for that? What is the actual link to the election?
If you cannot answer these, you shouldn't say it is "very relevant"! Right now it is just hot air. Str1977 (talk) 07:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You're not suggesting the timing was a coincidence? I've replaced "gained control" with "gains in the election", although I suspect that the NSDASP had coalition partners to form a majority. Replacing "from 1945" with "later" seems unnecessarily vague. Sparafucil ( talk) 23:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I underestimated Str1977. I took his characterizaton of "not relevant" to suggest he either did not know what the Reichstag was, or that he did not see a link between the rise of Naziism and the cancellation of Krenek's performances. I see now that his grasp of events in 1933 is far more detailed than my own. Sparafucil's edit goes some way toward correcting the situation, but there is still a big gap in events, as Str1977 says. The cancellation of Krenek's Karl V took place not in Germany but in Austria, which did not come under Nazi control until the Anschluss in 1938. There were to be sure various Nazi-allied factions active in Austria long before this time, and one of these, according to the liner notes by Matthias Schmidt in the D&G recording of Karl V, the österreichisches Heimwehr was the body actually responsible. It is plausible that their decision to move when they did was emboldened by the Nazi political gain in Germany the previous day, but Schmidt does not mention this, coincidence or no. So the problem of a verifiable source remains, but it should not be an insuperable problem in the long run, since there are a number of good sources out there that I have not yet consulted.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 04:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I see the 'Musical style' section now has 6 fact tags added by User:Jerome Kohl including one on the (apparently straightforward and well-documented) sentence "His opera Jonny spielt auf (Johnny Strikes Up, 1926), which is influenced by jazz, was a great success in his lifetime, playing all over Europe.". I wonder if Jerome Kohl can explain his concerns? I can understand challenging some of these facts - but six tags? -- Klein zach 08:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Just as a heads up, in adding more detailed sourcing about the Ray Lev recording, I discovered that the album contains a nice little essay by Krenek himself about the sonata and his completion. I'll try to incorporate some extracts or a summary into the Wikipedia article about the sonata, which strikes me as the appropriate place for them/it. Should this article incorporate some of that material as well? Drhoehl ( talk) 18:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Considering that Krenek not only completed the "Reliquie" but also had an invitation to complete Mahler's 10th, I decided that his discussion of such things in the Ray Lev album notes merited inclusion; as other mentions of the completions were split between "life" and "style," however, I further decided to consolidate all into a new section. I also moved some material not really pertinent to "style" from that section into the "life" section and broke the "style" section down into bullet format to ease the reader's tracing out this fecund stylist's changes of direction. In doing so, I came up with a couple of questions. First, as the article stood, it indicated that Krenek started as a late romatic, later adopted atonality, did the Paris thing, then the neo-Romantic thing, then 12-tone. I know that "atonality" is not truly a synonym for "12-tone," but popular usage loosely treats it as one, and I'm guessing that it was originally inserted out of order as a reference to the later 12-tone period; hence, I've moved the reference to the bullet on 12-tone. If that's in error (i.e., if the order really *was* late romantic-atonal-Paris-Schubertish-12 tone), then somebody please correct me and, more importantly, the bullets. Second, the bullet on neo-Romanticism indicates that Krenek began his flirtation with that style in the early '30s and points to a "prime example" that, according to the works list, was a product of 1929. Should the bullet substitute "late '20s" for "early '30s"? Drhoehl ( talk) 20:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
We now have sources - which were used in writing this article - put in the bibliography! This is different from the way it's done on other music articles. I realize that there is some confusion about this on WP, however it is generally understood that 'bibliography' means 'further reading' (i.e. works that important but which were not used directly in writing the article). Also it's normal now to use 'References' rather than 'notes' when citing published works rather than providing additional information. So can we please revert to the way it was before or suggest some other arrangement which is not so misleading for readers? -- Klein zach 10:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:EntarteteKunst.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 12:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
for example there is no mention of the famous LAMENTATIONS, and the beginning hexachordal rotations [1]. What about discussion of the other operas such as THE BELL TOWER (I see there is a short wiki entry on the Melville opera), the eight string quartets, five symphonies, seven piano sonatas one of which was championed by Glenn Gould. I would add if I had all of the data... Hstokar ( talk) 23:12, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Geni.com strongly suggests that his middle name was Heinrich; I don't know how reliable we believe that site is, of course, but it may be worth double-checking elsewhere. Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:25, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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I've just undone a good-faith move of the page from Ernst Krenek to Ernst Křenek [1]. The fact is that he was born Křenek but changed it to Krenek when he moved to the USA. [2], [3], [4].
I'm very surprised this issue hasn't cropped up before, or that some mention of it hasn't made it into the article. I'll rectify that now.-- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
but they are mentioned here (weren't they published ?)
I only find a translation (into German) . 178.203.113.19 ( talk) 13:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article contains a translation of Ernst Krenek from de.wikipedia. |
Are the cigarettes relevant, and is it known that they were named after the opera? - Ar 18:28, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
I think the cigarettes are relevant- it's an interesting tidbit of information that demonstrates his popularity. Could we get a picture? (Of him, not the cigarettes) Splat 02:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a picture. Splat 06:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've undone a reversion by kleinzach, who informs me there is an established practice of ordering works by date of premiere instead of composition and opus number. If this is so, he may reorder them without removing the composition dates. Sparafucil ( talk) 07:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we try and refocus on the problem here?
Entries like: Karl V, op. 73 (1933, Prague 1938; revised 1954) are unintelligible. What does 1933 signify? No-one will know. On the other hand a standard listing e.g. Die Juxheirat, 21 December 1904, Theater an der Wien, Vienna is clear and unambiguous. (Having composition dates is of course useful if the information is added in a clearly understood way). -- Kleinzach ( talk) 02:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, the following bit is problematic. Since it has been restored after my removal, I am raising it here:
On March 6, one day after the Nazis gained control of the Reichstag, Krenek's incidental music to Goethe's Triumph der Empsindsamkeit had to be withdrawn
What is "gained control of the Reichstag" supposed to mean?
Jerome says they became the "controlling force of government" but that isn't actually true.
What actually happened on March 5 is that there were elections to the Reichstag. The NSDAP won 44% of the seats - hence they did not win a majority. Hitler had been already appointed Chancellor on January 30 and the Fire Decree had suspended civic rights on February 28. Also, the Reichstag elected on March 5 first met on March 21 so actually the 44% went effective only then.
The other question is how this is relevant to Ernst Krenek? Did the Nazi government or someone else wait until after the elections before withdrawing the musich? Who actually was responsible for that? What is the actual link to the election?
If you cannot answer these, you shouldn't say it is "very relevant"! Right now it is just hot air. Str1977 (talk) 07:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You're not suggesting the timing was a coincidence? I've replaced "gained control" with "gains in the election", although I suspect that the NSDASP had coalition partners to form a majority. Replacing "from 1945" with "later" seems unnecessarily vague. Sparafucil ( talk) 23:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I underestimated Str1977. I took his characterizaton of "not relevant" to suggest he either did not know what the Reichstag was, or that he did not see a link between the rise of Naziism and the cancellation of Krenek's performances. I see now that his grasp of events in 1933 is far more detailed than my own. Sparafucil's edit goes some way toward correcting the situation, but there is still a big gap in events, as Str1977 says. The cancellation of Krenek's Karl V took place not in Germany but in Austria, which did not come under Nazi control until the Anschluss in 1938. There were to be sure various Nazi-allied factions active in Austria long before this time, and one of these, according to the liner notes by Matthias Schmidt in the D&G recording of Karl V, the österreichisches Heimwehr was the body actually responsible. It is plausible that their decision to move when they did was emboldened by the Nazi political gain in Germany the previous day, but Schmidt does not mention this, coincidence or no. So the problem of a verifiable source remains, but it should not be an insuperable problem in the long run, since there are a number of good sources out there that I have not yet consulted.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 04:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I see the 'Musical style' section now has 6 fact tags added by User:Jerome Kohl including one on the (apparently straightforward and well-documented) sentence "His opera Jonny spielt auf (Johnny Strikes Up, 1926), which is influenced by jazz, was a great success in his lifetime, playing all over Europe.". I wonder if Jerome Kohl can explain his concerns? I can understand challenging some of these facts - but six tags? -- Klein zach 08:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Just as a heads up, in adding more detailed sourcing about the Ray Lev recording, I discovered that the album contains a nice little essay by Krenek himself about the sonata and his completion. I'll try to incorporate some extracts or a summary into the Wikipedia article about the sonata, which strikes me as the appropriate place for them/it. Should this article incorporate some of that material as well? Drhoehl ( talk) 18:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Considering that Krenek not only completed the "Reliquie" but also had an invitation to complete Mahler's 10th, I decided that his discussion of such things in the Ray Lev album notes merited inclusion; as other mentions of the completions were split between "life" and "style," however, I further decided to consolidate all into a new section. I also moved some material not really pertinent to "style" from that section into the "life" section and broke the "style" section down into bullet format to ease the reader's tracing out this fecund stylist's changes of direction. In doing so, I came up with a couple of questions. First, as the article stood, it indicated that Krenek started as a late romatic, later adopted atonality, did the Paris thing, then the neo-Romantic thing, then 12-tone. I know that "atonality" is not truly a synonym for "12-tone," but popular usage loosely treats it as one, and I'm guessing that it was originally inserted out of order as a reference to the later 12-tone period; hence, I've moved the reference to the bullet on 12-tone. If that's in error (i.e., if the order really *was* late romantic-atonal-Paris-Schubertish-12 tone), then somebody please correct me and, more importantly, the bullets. Second, the bullet on neo-Romanticism indicates that Krenek began his flirtation with that style in the early '30s and points to a "prime example" that, according to the works list, was a product of 1929. Should the bullet substitute "late '20s" for "early '30s"? Drhoehl ( talk) 20:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
We now have sources - which were used in writing this article - put in the bibliography! This is different from the way it's done on other music articles. I realize that there is some confusion about this on WP, however it is generally understood that 'bibliography' means 'further reading' (i.e. works that important but which were not used directly in writing the article). Also it's normal now to use 'References' rather than 'notes' when citing published works rather than providing additional information. So can we please revert to the way it was before or suggest some other arrangement which is not so misleading for readers? -- Klein zach 10:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:EntarteteKunst.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 12:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
for example there is no mention of the famous LAMENTATIONS, and the beginning hexachordal rotations [1]. What about discussion of the other operas such as THE BELL TOWER (I see there is a short wiki entry on the Melville opera), the eight string quartets, five symphonies, seven piano sonatas one of which was championed by Glenn Gould. I would add if I had all of the data... Hstokar ( talk) 23:12, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Geni.com strongly suggests that his middle name was Heinrich; I don't know how reliable we believe that site is, of course, but it may be worth double-checking elsewhere. Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:25, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:07, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
I've just undone a good-faith move of the page from Ernst Krenek to Ernst Křenek [1]. The fact is that he was born Křenek but changed it to Krenek when he moved to the USA. [2], [3], [4].
I'm very surprised this issue hasn't cropped up before, or that some mention of it hasn't made it into the article. I'll rectify that now.-- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
but they are mentioned here (weren't they published ?)
I only find a translation (into German) . 178.203.113.19 ( talk) 13:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)