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The links had been removed, because it was about the Przewalski horse subspecies. But that is not true. It is about all Eurasian wild horses, the Przewalski horse is also mentioned, and linked to the Przewalski subspecies page on the IUCN red list. See text from that link: "This assessment is for the wild horse, not for the domesticated horse or any of its feral populations. Of the three subspecies that lived in historical times (since 1500 AD) two are Extinct while the third survives only in captivity or as highly managed introduced or reintroduced populations. Wild animals survived in eastern Europe (Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and Germany) through the eighteenth century, with the last wild individuals killed in 1814 (Novak 1999). The subspecies, known as the Plains Tarpan, lived on the steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine. Its disappearance is attributed to interbreeding with domestic horses; hunting by people for sport and to protect their mares and forage; and the rapid settlement and cultivation of the steppes in the ninereenth century (Novak 1999). The last known wild individual died in Ukraine in 1879 (Novak 1999). Przewalski's Horse (E. ferus przewalskii) is the only subspecies still extant, but only as 'captive' populations. The last know sighting of animals in the wild was made in 1969 in Mongolia. All subsequent expenditions to find animals in both Mongolia and China have failed to find any evidence for their continued survival in the wild. For further details, see the account for this subspecies." Wild Horse (text from this link): IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus Przewalski Horse: IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus ssp. przewalskii Pmaas 22:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
ru:Тарпан gives a Turkic etymology of the name, unfortunately without reference. I can imagine a meaning of "flying forward", but I have more difficulty believing the term means "to be born in full gallop", that sounds a little too picturesquely Sapir-Whorfish. There is also an anecdote about Tarpan-hunting I would like to quote here, but unfortunately also given without source. dab (ᛏ) 11:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
A number of Russian sites give the name as meaning "carry itself galloping at top speed" or "fly forward". However, when checking various forms of these words and synonyms in Kirgiz, Kazakh and Turkish dictionaries, there is nothing like tarpan. It is true that Vasmer gives two references to different authors who define tarpan as meaning "wild horse" but that doesn't sound like an etymology. In checking various other Russian language sites for "tarpan" and "Kyrgyz" I came across descriptions of beating the two front hooves like a camel (Bactrian). Then I came across the words tarpu and tarpa in Kyrgyz dictionaries in phrases about beating. Russians will now be thinking about the russian word "tolpa" and wondering if there is a connection. I also followed up in a Turkish dictionary and came across two words "darbe" and "darp" referring to "beat. Given that Turkic languages like to make nouns by adding -(vowel)n to the end of a word, it seems that Tarpan means "one who beats".
Not sure what to do now. Given the widespread belief that it means "wild horse" in Kyrgyz even though that work is "takhi", I'm not sure that we will be able to find an English language reference. Given that Russian language sources are closer, perhaps someone with better Russian than me could edit the Russian language article with a good reference and then we could lean on that as the authority. Wavetossed ( talk) 00:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The tarpan article has this to say:
"The Hucul pony living in the Carpathian mountains is arguably the most direct descendant of the Tarpan."
But the article on horse says:
"The Wild Polish Horse or Konik more closely resembles the tarpan than any other living horse."
Which is right? Or is that point disputed? If anyone actually knows, or at least knows enough to know where to look, a little reconciliatory research could be in order.
The opening para says Tarpan was a species, but the (very informative) taxonomy section describes it as being (in fact, if not by naming convention) a breed of horse. By the definition in species it sure looks like a breed. Perhaps we should use a more generic turn of phrase than the meaning-laden "species" in the opening para. Perhaps we should change "The last specimen of this species died" to "The last tarpan died", or something like that? (note: I'm not proposing we get into the breed/species matter in the opening paragraph, that would just be clunky and uninformative). Darryl Revok 21:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of avoiding the entire controversy. If you can do a smooth rewrite to clean it up in that respect, go for it! Montanabw 22:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Why does it say that the last specimen died in 1918 or 1919 when the taxobox says it became extinct in 1879? ??????? Thylacinus cynocephalus ( talk) 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just changed the order in which the two projects appeared in the article. Not "knowing" which of the two is or was "better", and not interested in such judgement (at least not here and noew), it is obvious that the Heck project should be listed first for reasons of alphabetic and esp. chronological order (provided the dates given in the respective WP articles are accurate). 147.142.186.54 ( talk) 16:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This page was one of the many pages moved by Una unilaterally like more cases, in order to change policy. Tarpan is very clearly the primary topic, and this highly controversial move should have been discussed. If this discussion does not generate consensus to leave it here, it should be moved back as a controversial move unapproved. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved back, per the fairly obvious consensus. Prodego talk 03:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
As is proper, I disregard the ad hominem arguments offered here by some editors. However, I am persuaded by the arguments to the point, so I have moved the disambiguation page to Tarpan (disambiguation). -- Una Smith ( talk) 16:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The sentence about cave paintings showing Equus ferus ferus does not have an adequate source. This is important because most cave paintings of horses that are in color show
dun, not
grullo horses; also, most cave paintings are not adequate to distinguish between Equus ferus ferus (this article) and
Equus ferus przewalskii. --
Una Smith (
talk) 21:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
No doubt naively, I had expected the article to stay where I moved it, and rewrote the taxonomy section accordingly. But in rewriting it, I realized that the taxonomy applies to Equus ferus ferus, not to Tarpan (whatever that may be). I have tried to make this clear, in splitting the two. I know I am not being a compliant editor here, but my experience with WP:EQ has been that when I am compliant, I am simply ignored. ---- Una Smith
Ok, there are two things getting conflated here.
So, what leaves us that with. A single eurasian wild horse species, named Tarpan and Equus ferus fersu and several breed-back species also called Tarpan for nostalgia and PR reasons (and a few that actually think they have bred back the tarpan). So, does that means Tarpan whould be the disambig page. In my opinion, no, as it has only breed/species for which it is the primary use. That has already be decided above in the move request. Remains that we could argue that Tarpan has to primary uses, but in that case, it should be reslve by makeing Tarpan (wild horse) and Tarpan (breed backs) as that is where we actually disambiguate between.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Out of curiosity what are the assertions that Tarpan=Equus ferus ferus based from? I just typed "Tarpan" into google and the first 10 links pan out as such (ignoring wikipedia/wikicommons and duplicates of sites):
Comments on the links found. Montanabw asserts that the connection between the term "Tarpan" and the bred back horses is not a major aspect. However from the results of my quick informal search ~2/3 of the links treat the two as one and the same. many mention that "wild" Tarpan went extinct in the 1800 but go on to treat Heck & Konik breeds under the same name and with descriptions ranging from "similar to" to "the same as" when equating E f. ferus to the breeds. Of the sites that treat the "Tarpan" as extinct 2 mention the Heck & Konik breeds. One, link 8, states its not correct to refer to the breeds as "Tarpan". One, Link 7, talks about the breeds without comment on how to refer to them. And one, link 9, Doesn't mention them at all. (and lists the Trarpan as "Equus caballus gmelini" showing how outdated it is!). The last link, link 10 (and link 11), simply states "See: Przewalski's Horse". Thus it is clearly NOT a simple issue.
Another important aspect is the statement that keep resurfacing is that "Tarpan" is THE official name for the subspecies. It has been stated that MSW3 is the official source for WP:Mammals for Common names. The MSW3 page on "Equus caballus ferus", which as was noted earlier hasn't been updated since 2002, does NOT list ANY common name for the taxon.
Also brought up in the first page of the search were two MORE usages of the word "Tarpan": here Apparently a Hindu ritual? and here UK plumbing and heating.
I think that while not a option liked by some this article if it is going to be about E. f. ferus is would be best have it located at Equus ferus ferus. The page titled "Tarpan" should be used as a disambiguation page set up similar to the one used for
USS Enterprise as there are multiple different things both living and not that people may be looking for when they search for "Tarpan".--
Kevmin (
talk) 06:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually a better response to the proliferation of the term would be the
Saber-tooth cat solution. A page about the term with explanations and links to the various articles--
Kevmin (
talk) 08:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Starting over with my question again! First and foremost! I am not nor have I at any point made the assertion that there were several species of Extinct horse being represented as the same speies E. f. Ferus!!! My concerns are about the assertion that at this point in time "Tarpan" correct common name by dint of WP:COMMONAME. To this I have pointed out the usage of the name for other things is seeming to be wide spread. Two to four OTHER horse breeds from what I am finding have been and still are being referred to as "Tarpan": Konik, Heck horse, The Hegardt or Stroebel's horse, and Przewalski's Horse. There are other things with the name "Tarpan": Tarpan Honker, PZL M-4 Tarpan, The [ Hindu water offering for the dead, the here UK Plumbing company, the [www.tarpanstudios.com/ San Francisco recording studio] . Also, looking at the spelling ability on this talk page (me included), I will also include: TBF Avenger aka the Grumman Tarpon, Tarpon the fish, Rambler Tarpon the concept car, USS Tarpon the US Sub, and USS Tarpon (SS-175) a second US sub all easy to end up here due to a single letter difference! Are we assuming that ALL who are interested in finding out what a "Tarpan/Tarpon" is will know how to spell it? Considering the amount of other things with the same or EXTREMELY similar names I think it is a rather extraordinary claim to make that E. f. ferus is the only/most searched for meaning of the term "Tarpan". In science etraordinary claims require extrordinary proof. So far the defence of the useage of "Tarpan" has been to dismiss the wrong uses of the word for other breeds without acknowledging the LARGE amount of misinformation present available to the public (web,publication etc..) put out by supporters of those breeds; to not even recognize other uses of hte term or to call them OR, even though I have provided link showing the usage of the term. and assert that "Tarpan" is the "common name without providing supporting evidence.
I think there IS plenty of proof that the term "Tarpan" is a widely used and misused term for which an explanation of more then just a hatnote or one sentence is needed. I say this is a time when a page similar to Saber-tooth cat is appropriate for adressing the multiple and varied uses of the name.-- Kevmin ( talk) 19:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, there are two different discussions going here and it's getting confusing. I basically agree with Kim's summation of the whole issue and I say she has it dead-on correct. As for Kevmin's point about the cars, fish and so on, I suppose there is precedent in Mustang (horse) versus Mustang, though that was probably due to the Ford model of car being so very, very, very well known. (Unlike vehicles named Tarpan) Maybe as a compromise, we could call this article Tarpan (horse), just like most of the other animal articles (compare Passenger pigeon, another animal extinct only within recent times) as the evidence is overwhelming that equus ferus ferus is commonly called the Tarpan (It is not routinely called the Eurasian Wild Horse, though that is another acceptable name). A paragraph about the bred backs could be added or expanded, but it is appropriate for each of the different ones to keep their own article. We have Konik and Heck horse already done. I certainly would have no problem if someone wanted to do up a new article on the other one. The Przewalski's is NOT a Tarpan, and all we have otherwise is an obsolete 100 year old source that mistakenly labeled it as such, already noted in the Przewalski's article and of no use elsewhere. Montanabw (talk) 03:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Equus ferus ferus is a scientific name based on a holotype. Tarpan is a common name for grullo colored equines formerly known in the wild in Europe. The two may be considered to be "the same kind of animal", or not. Because this is a choice, and a matter of scientific debate, it is appropriate to have separate articles for the two. -- Una Smith ( talk) 07:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Re this version: An important question here is the typification of Equus ferus ferus. Here, Kim thinks the type is a specimen in a museum in Moscow. Would someone with access to the nomenclatural literature please check this? -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Re this version: A number of errors about this taxonomy exist on the web. They include naming the wrong author with the surname Gemlin, and using the description by the nephew Gemlin in place of the one by the uncle that is the type of the name. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
[The following discussion moved here from User talk:Una Smith.]
This implies that E. ferus ferus lacks a type specimen. Is that correct?-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 15:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
First, I was using "specimen" in the physical sense; I had forgotten that the ICZN allows for descriptions only (in botany, we call those nomina nuda).
Second, please don't make this about Una any more than it has to be. The issue here is not the specimens from Moscow or any other specimens, the issue is the name Equus ferus. Gmelin was likely looking at Tarpans, but it can't be ruled out that he was looking at feral horses, feral horse-Tarpan hybrids, or even some other, otherwise-unknown (sub)species. And there is probably no way to ever know. Parsimony would suggest he viewed Tarpans, and the common use of E. ferus ferus as their scientific name follows that. If it were a plant of that importance, it probably would have been neotypified (a new type specimen selected, to firmly tie the name to an organism), but since in the ICZN a description can be a type, perhaps it is not allowed to select a neotype.
And this is totally independent of the separate controversies over what is and isn't a Tarpan or any other ancestral horse; it is a controversy over the applicability of a name, not about biology. If someone discovered an isolated population of Tarpans in some hidden valley in the Carpathians, protected by domestic-horse-eating Neandertals, we might have a lot of our questions about the biology of ancestral horses answered. But it would have no effect at all on the issue of Equus ferus ferus.
I've decided that a separate article is perhaps misleading and unnecessary (will weigh in on the article talk page later), but Una has done a commendable job of outlining the issues with the name, and at the least it should be a section in Tarpan.-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 20:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
[The preceding discussion moved here from User talk:Una Smith.]
There is no evidence that Equus ferus (sensu the original name, not the modern circumscription) is a Tarpan. That cannot be disputed, since there is no physical specimen of Equus ferus. No "original research" is involved; it can be deduced by anyone who looks at the protologue of E. ferus (caveat: I'm basing this on what I have read; I have not seen it myself). It is also important to note that there is no evidence that E. ferus is not a Tarpan.
Many authors have postulated that Equus ferus is a Tarpan, based on (afaict) more than one line of conjecture. Although this doesn't appear to be testable with current data, it is not an unreasonable hypothesis, it seems to be well-accepted currently, and obviously it deserves to be in Wikipedia. But the fact remains that there is no physical evidence connecting the binomial to the animals. This is worth noting. It is not original research. It is one of those interesting twists of nomenclature that, but for the (totally independent) disagreements over "what is a Tarpan", and the current accusation-laden atmosphere, would have made the article more interesting to us few geeks who like nomenclatural trivia.-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 15:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a parallel conversation going on over at Tarpan, to which this article above redirects. Una is splitting editors here, or engaging in her usual tactic of WP:ASK, and I strongly urge that everyone go over to Tarpan and consolidate this discussion in one place. We are ALMOST at a solution there, I'd hate for a legitimate editor with views worth considering to be left out of the discussion. Montanabw (talk) 03:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I posted a bunch of thoughts about the taxonomy of the horses on the Wikiproject Equine here, because of its cross article scope. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I realized that actually there is no section really describing what the Tarpan presumably looked like. There is only the reference to the konik horses and others, and that photo, but that is not enough in my opinion. For example, after Puvrost et al., the grullo coat is not the only coat colour that appeared in the Tarpan. I'll spend some time gathering references for the appearance of the Tarpan, and then create a section for that. -- DFoidl ( talk) 06:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
This is the source you call plain wrong, sometimes I really don't get what you mean: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/02/1108982108 -- DFoidl ( talk) 07:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, yes, of course English is not my first language, I am sorry that my english sometimes causes problems. I was just a bit perplexed that my reference to the paper was removed completely and replaced by "citation needed". But it seems to be ok now. By the way, one regarding one of your changes, don't you think that the differences between Konik and Heck horse are more likely due to their breeding history? Since they are not feral and exposed to their environment, therefore they are the result of what man makes of them. -- DFoidl ( talk) 19:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the much better title. Yes, I know the Tarpan was a subspecies, that's what I wanted to address with my note. Yes, environmental factor may play a role (although I do not believe that, because Heck horses are either bred in zoos or grazing projects, and koniks mainly live in grazing project as well), but the breeding history is strikingly different, that's also what the reference by Bunzel-Drüke et al. (sorry that it's in german) states.-- DFoidl ( talk) 20:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all, if you understood what I meant in my edit but the wording wasn't fine, why do you remove the entire message of the sentence instead of rewording one single line? And I don't know whats so bad and incomprehensible about: and a different breeding history, as Heck horse descends from a variety of horse breeds. And this sentence is nothing but the truth and it's sourced.
Furthermore, only because one source is German it does not mean that it is a bad reference. And using only those references which are written in the language of the respective Wikipedia, would restrict the amount of knowledge this wiki can provide. -- DFoidl ( talk) 15:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
The article claims at different points that the last tarpan died in 1909 and 1918. Making it even weirder, the 1918 claim and one of the 1909 claims appear to have the same reference as their source (it's a print source, so it's difficult to tell what the source actually says). 99.102.30.51 ( talk) 06:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
The article also veers wildly between stating that the tarpan (in the more narrow sense?) is the ancestor of the domesticated horse, and that it is *not* seen as such by scientists (the alternative is, of course, that horses were domesticated from a wild population of another subspecies, which went extinct well before the middle ages and hasn't left any certain trace of itself in history). Obviously some of these statements about the tarpan being/not being the wild ancestor rely on different zoologists and different strata of the scientific debate. The article really should say, scientific opinion remains divided on this important point. There's nothing strange about the idea of several different subspecies or breeds of wild horse during the late Pleistocene and early Holocene, and we can be sure that the horse was domesticated at least before 2000 BC.
83.254.154.164 (
talk) 22:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus that they are. Unless one can change that consensus through convincing argument here on the Talk page, this should not be changed in the article to suggest that there is some disagreement on this point. Agricolae ( talk) 07:17, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
1)There is a clear consensus that they are. 2)There is a clear consensus that they are not. 1 or 2 ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 ( talk) 08:00, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
there is source of survival of this subspecies
Genet. Mol. Res. 10 (4): 4104-4113 (2011) Received March 25, 2011 Accepted August 8, 2011 Published October 31, 2011 DOI http://dx.doi.org/10.4238/2011.October.31.7
du u:a refer this to blogpost ? 99.90.196.227 ( talk) 07:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the following paragraph: "In modern use, the term has been loosely used to refer to the predomesticated ancestor of the modern horse, Equus ferus, to the predomestic subspecies believed to have lived into the historic era, Equus ferus ferus, and to all European primitive or "wild" horses in general. The modern "bred-back" horse breeds are also promoted as "tarpan" by their supporters, though researchers discourage this use of the word, which they believe should only apply to the ancient E. ferus ferus.", currently marked as "citation needed," this is a summary of the contents of one of the sources referenced in the following Taxonomy section, which contains a shorter version of the same material ("It is debated if the small, free-roaming horses seen in the forests of Europe during 18th and 19th centuries and called "tarpan" were indeed wild, never-domesticated horses, hybrids of the Przewalski's horse and local domestic animals, or simply feral horses.") I have just restored the reference in the Taxonomy section, where it was likely removed because the link was broken for some time due to the PLOS Paleocommunity Blog being migrated to The Official PLOS Blog. I suggest to restore it in the Name and Etymology section as well because, while the wording is different, the contents clearly refer to the same source. I marked it as "<ref name=Castelli>" in the Taxonomy section. Kileytoo ( talk) 12:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
A recent study by Librado et al. 2021 found that the horses called "tarpan" came about by hybridization between domestic horses and wild horses, in particular the Cherson tarpan. It never was clear if the horses called "tarpan" were truly wild or feral horses, but the new study seems to suggest they were hybrids and therefore not synonymous with the original European wild horse. A distinction should be made between the horses of the Russian steppe from the 18th to 20th century that were called tarpans, and the actual European wild horse. I suggest to split the article into two, one for the tarpan and one for the European wild horse. In the current form, the article is misleading and compares apples to bananas. DFoidl ( talk) 11:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
If nobody has objections against the plan to split the article into two, I'm going to realize it in the next couple of days. DFoidl ( talk) 15:13, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
OK. I made some changes. The article now appreciates the fact that the nature of the horses called tarpan is a matter of debate, and I added the new study. Where studies are cited that refer to unambiguous wild horses, such as the coat colour genetics studies, the horses are called wild horses in the article. Where definitely only the horses called tarpan are mentioned, they are called tarpan in the article. I also had to eradicate some repetitions of passages (f.e. the horses at Zamosc). DFoidl ( talk) 18:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
In the article it is written that the "tarpan" individual that was used in the study by Librado et al. was the "Shatilov tarpan" which died in 1868. The study, however, does not say that explicitly, it just says it was a "tarpan" from the Kherson region that is now in the collection of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Sankt Petersburg. I think we would need additional references for the nickname and death date of that "tarpan" and that it was indeed the one that was used in the study to clarify this, especially since some sources refer to the "Cherson tarpan" as "Shatilov's tarpan" because that individual was donated to the Moscow zoo by Shatilov in 1884 according to Falz-Fein cited in Oelke 2012, causing confusion - or have I overlooked something? Thanks. DFoidl ( talk) 14:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
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The links had been removed, because it was about the Przewalski horse subspecies. But that is not true. It is about all Eurasian wild horses, the Przewalski horse is also mentioned, and linked to the Przewalski subspecies page on the IUCN red list. See text from that link: "This assessment is for the wild horse, not for the domesticated horse or any of its feral populations. Of the three subspecies that lived in historical times (since 1500 AD) two are Extinct while the third survives only in captivity or as highly managed introduced or reintroduced populations. Wild animals survived in eastern Europe (Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and Germany) through the eighteenth century, with the last wild individuals killed in 1814 (Novak 1999). The subspecies, known as the Plains Tarpan, lived on the steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine. Its disappearance is attributed to interbreeding with domestic horses; hunting by people for sport and to protect their mares and forage; and the rapid settlement and cultivation of the steppes in the ninereenth century (Novak 1999). The last known wild individual died in Ukraine in 1879 (Novak 1999). Przewalski's Horse (E. ferus przewalskii) is the only subspecies still extant, but only as 'captive' populations. The last know sighting of animals in the wild was made in 1969 in Mongolia. All subsequent expenditions to find animals in both Mongolia and China have failed to find any evidence for their continued survival in the wild. For further details, see the account for this subspecies." Wild Horse (text from this link): IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus Przewalski Horse: IUCN Red List of Threatened Species: Equus ferus ssp. przewalskii Pmaas 22:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
ru:Тарпан gives a Turkic etymology of the name, unfortunately without reference. I can imagine a meaning of "flying forward", but I have more difficulty believing the term means "to be born in full gallop", that sounds a little too picturesquely Sapir-Whorfish. There is also an anecdote about Tarpan-hunting I would like to quote here, but unfortunately also given without source. dab (ᛏ) 11:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
A number of Russian sites give the name as meaning "carry itself galloping at top speed" or "fly forward". However, when checking various forms of these words and synonyms in Kirgiz, Kazakh and Turkish dictionaries, there is nothing like tarpan. It is true that Vasmer gives two references to different authors who define tarpan as meaning "wild horse" but that doesn't sound like an etymology. In checking various other Russian language sites for "tarpan" and "Kyrgyz" I came across descriptions of beating the two front hooves like a camel (Bactrian). Then I came across the words tarpu and tarpa in Kyrgyz dictionaries in phrases about beating. Russians will now be thinking about the russian word "tolpa" and wondering if there is a connection. I also followed up in a Turkish dictionary and came across two words "darbe" and "darp" referring to "beat. Given that Turkic languages like to make nouns by adding -(vowel)n to the end of a word, it seems that Tarpan means "one who beats".
Not sure what to do now. Given the widespread belief that it means "wild horse" in Kyrgyz even though that work is "takhi", I'm not sure that we will be able to find an English language reference. Given that Russian language sources are closer, perhaps someone with better Russian than me could edit the Russian language article with a good reference and then we could lean on that as the authority. Wavetossed ( talk) 00:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The tarpan article has this to say:
"The Hucul pony living in the Carpathian mountains is arguably the most direct descendant of the Tarpan."
But the article on horse says:
"The Wild Polish Horse or Konik more closely resembles the tarpan than any other living horse."
Which is right? Or is that point disputed? If anyone actually knows, or at least knows enough to know where to look, a little reconciliatory research could be in order.
The opening para says Tarpan was a species, but the (very informative) taxonomy section describes it as being (in fact, if not by naming convention) a breed of horse. By the definition in species it sure looks like a breed. Perhaps we should use a more generic turn of phrase than the meaning-laden "species" in the opening para. Perhaps we should change "The last specimen of this species died" to "The last tarpan died", or something like that? (note: I'm not proposing we get into the breed/species matter in the opening paragraph, that would just be clunky and uninformative). Darryl Revok 21:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of avoiding the entire controversy. If you can do a smooth rewrite to clean it up in that respect, go for it! Montanabw 22:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Why does it say that the last specimen died in 1918 or 1919 when the taxobox says it became extinct in 1879? ??????? Thylacinus cynocephalus ( talk) 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just changed the order in which the two projects appeared in the article. Not "knowing" which of the two is or was "better", and not interested in such judgement (at least not here and noew), it is obvious that the Heck project should be listed first for reasons of alphabetic and esp. chronological order (provided the dates given in the respective WP articles are accurate). 147.142.186.54 ( talk) 16:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This page was one of the many pages moved by Una unilaterally like more cases, in order to change policy. Tarpan is very clearly the primary topic, and this highly controversial move should have been discussed. If this discussion does not generate consensus to leave it here, it should be moved back as a controversial move unapproved. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved back, per the fairly obvious consensus. Prodego talk 03:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
As is proper, I disregard the ad hominem arguments offered here by some editors. However, I am persuaded by the arguments to the point, so I have moved the disambiguation page to Tarpan (disambiguation). -- Una Smith ( talk) 16:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The sentence about cave paintings showing Equus ferus ferus does not have an adequate source. This is important because most cave paintings of horses that are in color show
dun, not
grullo horses; also, most cave paintings are not adequate to distinguish between Equus ferus ferus (this article) and
Equus ferus przewalskii. --
Una Smith (
talk) 21:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
No doubt naively, I had expected the article to stay where I moved it, and rewrote the taxonomy section accordingly. But in rewriting it, I realized that the taxonomy applies to Equus ferus ferus, not to Tarpan (whatever that may be). I have tried to make this clear, in splitting the two. I know I am not being a compliant editor here, but my experience with WP:EQ has been that when I am compliant, I am simply ignored. ---- Una Smith
Ok, there are two things getting conflated here.
So, what leaves us that with. A single eurasian wild horse species, named Tarpan and Equus ferus fersu and several breed-back species also called Tarpan for nostalgia and PR reasons (and a few that actually think they have bred back the tarpan). So, does that means Tarpan whould be the disambig page. In my opinion, no, as it has only breed/species for which it is the primary use. That has already be decided above in the move request. Remains that we could argue that Tarpan has to primary uses, but in that case, it should be reslve by makeing Tarpan (wild horse) and Tarpan (breed backs) as that is where we actually disambiguate between.-- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Out of curiosity what are the assertions that Tarpan=Equus ferus ferus based from? I just typed "Tarpan" into google and the first 10 links pan out as such (ignoring wikipedia/wikicommons and duplicates of sites):
Comments on the links found. Montanabw asserts that the connection between the term "Tarpan" and the bred back horses is not a major aspect. However from the results of my quick informal search ~2/3 of the links treat the two as one and the same. many mention that "wild" Tarpan went extinct in the 1800 but go on to treat Heck & Konik breeds under the same name and with descriptions ranging from "similar to" to "the same as" when equating E f. ferus to the breeds. Of the sites that treat the "Tarpan" as extinct 2 mention the Heck & Konik breeds. One, link 8, states its not correct to refer to the breeds as "Tarpan". One, Link 7, talks about the breeds without comment on how to refer to them. And one, link 9, Doesn't mention them at all. (and lists the Trarpan as "Equus caballus gmelini" showing how outdated it is!). The last link, link 10 (and link 11), simply states "See: Przewalski's Horse". Thus it is clearly NOT a simple issue.
Another important aspect is the statement that keep resurfacing is that "Tarpan" is THE official name for the subspecies. It has been stated that MSW3 is the official source for WP:Mammals for Common names. The MSW3 page on "Equus caballus ferus", which as was noted earlier hasn't been updated since 2002, does NOT list ANY common name for the taxon.
Also brought up in the first page of the search were two MORE usages of the word "Tarpan": here Apparently a Hindu ritual? and here UK plumbing and heating.
I think that while not a option liked by some this article if it is going to be about E. f. ferus is would be best have it located at Equus ferus ferus. The page titled "Tarpan" should be used as a disambiguation page set up similar to the one used for
USS Enterprise as there are multiple different things both living and not that people may be looking for when they search for "Tarpan".--
Kevmin (
talk) 06:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually a better response to the proliferation of the term would be the
Saber-tooth cat solution. A page about the term with explanations and links to the various articles--
Kevmin (
talk) 08:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Starting over with my question again! First and foremost! I am not nor have I at any point made the assertion that there were several species of Extinct horse being represented as the same speies E. f. Ferus!!! My concerns are about the assertion that at this point in time "Tarpan" correct common name by dint of WP:COMMONAME. To this I have pointed out the usage of the name for other things is seeming to be wide spread. Two to four OTHER horse breeds from what I am finding have been and still are being referred to as "Tarpan": Konik, Heck horse, The Hegardt or Stroebel's horse, and Przewalski's Horse. There are other things with the name "Tarpan": Tarpan Honker, PZL M-4 Tarpan, The [ Hindu water offering for the dead, the here UK Plumbing company, the [www.tarpanstudios.com/ San Francisco recording studio] . Also, looking at the spelling ability on this talk page (me included), I will also include: TBF Avenger aka the Grumman Tarpon, Tarpon the fish, Rambler Tarpon the concept car, USS Tarpon the US Sub, and USS Tarpon (SS-175) a second US sub all easy to end up here due to a single letter difference! Are we assuming that ALL who are interested in finding out what a "Tarpan/Tarpon" is will know how to spell it? Considering the amount of other things with the same or EXTREMELY similar names I think it is a rather extraordinary claim to make that E. f. ferus is the only/most searched for meaning of the term "Tarpan". In science etraordinary claims require extrordinary proof. So far the defence of the useage of "Tarpan" has been to dismiss the wrong uses of the word for other breeds without acknowledging the LARGE amount of misinformation present available to the public (web,publication etc..) put out by supporters of those breeds; to not even recognize other uses of hte term or to call them OR, even though I have provided link showing the usage of the term. and assert that "Tarpan" is the "common name without providing supporting evidence.
I think there IS plenty of proof that the term "Tarpan" is a widely used and misused term for which an explanation of more then just a hatnote or one sentence is needed. I say this is a time when a page similar to Saber-tooth cat is appropriate for adressing the multiple and varied uses of the name.-- Kevmin ( talk) 19:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, there are two different discussions going here and it's getting confusing. I basically agree with Kim's summation of the whole issue and I say she has it dead-on correct. As for Kevmin's point about the cars, fish and so on, I suppose there is precedent in Mustang (horse) versus Mustang, though that was probably due to the Ford model of car being so very, very, very well known. (Unlike vehicles named Tarpan) Maybe as a compromise, we could call this article Tarpan (horse), just like most of the other animal articles (compare Passenger pigeon, another animal extinct only within recent times) as the evidence is overwhelming that equus ferus ferus is commonly called the Tarpan (It is not routinely called the Eurasian Wild Horse, though that is another acceptable name). A paragraph about the bred backs could be added or expanded, but it is appropriate for each of the different ones to keep their own article. We have Konik and Heck horse already done. I certainly would have no problem if someone wanted to do up a new article on the other one. The Przewalski's is NOT a Tarpan, and all we have otherwise is an obsolete 100 year old source that mistakenly labeled it as such, already noted in the Przewalski's article and of no use elsewhere. Montanabw (talk) 03:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Equus ferus ferus is a scientific name based on a holotype. Tarpan is a common name for grullo colored equines formerly known in the wild in Europe. The two may be considered to be "the same kind of animal", or not. Because this is a choice, and a matter of scientific debate, it is appropriate to have separate articles for the two. -- Una Smith ( talk) 07:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Re this version: An important question here is the typification of Equus ferus ferus. Here, Kim thinks the type is a specimen in a museum in Moscow. Would someone with access to the nomenclatural literature please check this? -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Re this version: A number of errors about this taxonomy exist on the web. They include naming the wrong author with the surname Gemlin, and using the description by the nephew Gemlin in place of the one by the uncle that is the type of the name. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
[The following discussion moved here from User talk:Una Smith.]
This implies that E. ferus ferus lacks a type specimen. Is that correct?-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 15:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
First, I was using "specimen" in the physical sense; I had forgotten that the ICZN allows for descriptions only (in botany, we call those nomina nuda).
Second, please don't make this about Una any more than it has to be. The issue here is not the specimens from Moscow or any other specimens, the issue is the name Equus ferus. Gmelin was likely looking at Tarpans, but it can't be ruled out that he was looking at feral horses, feral horse-Tarpan hybrids, or even some other, otherwise-unknown (sub)species. And there is probably no way to ever know. Parsimony would suggest he viewed Tarpans, and the common use of E. ferus ferus as their scientific name follows that. If it were a plant of that importance, it probably would have been neotypified (a new type specimen selected, to firmly tie the name to an organism), but since in the ICZN a description can be a type, perhaps it is not allowed to select a neotype.
And this is totally independent of the separate controversies over what is and isn't a Tarpan or any other ancestral horse; it is a controversy over the applicability of a name, not about biology. If someone discovered an isolated population of Tarpans in some hidden valley in the Carpathians, protected by domestic-horse-eating Neandertals, we might have a lot of our questions about the biology of ancestral horses answered. But it would have no effect at all on the issue of Equus ferus ferus.
I've decided that a separate article is perhaps misleading and unnecessary (will weigh in on the article talk page later), but Una has done a commendable job of outlining the issues with the name, and at the least it should be a section in Tarpan.-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 20:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
[The preceding discussion moved here from User talk:Una Smith.]
There is no evidence that Equus ferus (sensu the original name, not the modern circumscription) is a Tarpan. That cannot be disputed, since there is no physical specimen of Equus ferus. No "original research" is involved; it can be deduced by anyone who looks at the protologue of E. ferus (caveat: I'm basing this on what I have read; I have not seen it myself). It is also important to note that there is no evidence that E. ferus is not a Tarpan.
Many authors have postulated that Equus ferus is a Tarpan, based on (afaict) more than one line of conjecture. Although this doesn't appear to be testable with current data, it is not an unreasonable hypothesis, it seems to be well-accepted currently, and obviously it deserves to be in Wikipedia. But the fact remains that there is no physical evidence connecting the binomial to the animals. This is worth noting. It is not original research. It is one of those interesting twists of nomenclature that, but for the (totally independent) disagreements over "what is a Tarpan", and the current accusation-laden atmosphere, would have made the article more interesting to us few geeks who like nomenclatural trivia.-- Curtis Clark ( talk) 15:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a parallel conversation going on over at Tarpan, to which this article above redirects. Una is splitting editors here, or engaging in her usual tactic of WP:ASK, and I strongly urge that everyone go over to Tarpan and consolidate this discussion in one place. We are ALMOST at a solution there, I'd hate for a legitimate editor with views worth considering to be left out of the discussion. Montanabw (talk) 03:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I posted a bunch of thoughts about the taxonomy of the horses on the Wikiproject Equine here, because of its cross article scope. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I realized that actually there is no section really describing what the Tarpan presumably looked like. There is only the reference to the konik horses and others, and that photo, but that is not enough in my opinion. For example, after Puvrost et al., the grullo coat is not the only coat colour that appeared in the Tarpan. I'll spend some time gathering references for the appearance of the Tarpan, and then create a section for that. -- DFoidl ( talk) 06:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
This is the source you call plain wrong, sometimes I really don't get what you mean: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/02/1108982108 -- DFoidl ( talk) 07:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, yes, of course English is not my first language, I am sorry that my english sometimes causes problems. I was just a bit perplexed that my reference to the paper was removed completely and replaced by "citation needed". But it seems to be ok now. By the way, one regarding one of your changes, don't you think that the differences between Konik and Heck horse are more likely due to their breeding history? Since they are not feral and exposed to their environment, therefore they are the result of what man makes of them. -- DFoidl ( talk) 19:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the much better title. Yes, I know the Tarpan was a subspecies, that's what I wanted to address with my note. Yes, environmental factor may play a role (although I do not believe that, because Heck horses are either bred in zoos or grazing projects, and koniks mainly live in grazing project as well), but the breeding history is strikingly different, that's also what the reference by Bunzel-Drüke et al. (sorry that it's in german) states.-- DFoidl ( talk) 20:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all, if you understood what I meant in my edit but the wording wasn't fine, why do you remove the entire message of the sentence instead of rewording one single line? And I don't know whats so bad and incomprehensible about: and a different breeding history, as Heck horse descends from a variety of horse breeds. And this sentence is nothing but the truth and it's sourced.
Furthermore, only because one source is German it does not mean that it is a bad reference. And using only those references which are written in the language of the respective Wikipedia, would restrict the amount of knowledge this wiki can provide. -- DFoidl ( talk) 15:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
The article claims at different points that the last tarpan died in 1909 and 1918. Making it even weirder, the 1918 claim and one of the 1909 claims appear to have the same reference as their source (it's a print source, so it's difficult to tell what the source actually says). 99.102.30.51 ( talk) 06:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
The article also veers wildly between stating that the tarpan (in the more narrow sense?) is the ancestor of the domesticated horse, and that it is *not* seen as such by scientists (the alternative is, of course, that horses were domesticated from a wild population of another subspecies, which went extinct well before the middle ages and hasn't left any certain trace of itself in history). Obviously some of these statements about the tarpan being/not being the wild ancestor rely on different zoologists and different strata of the scientific debate. The article really should say, scientific opinion remains divided on this important point. There's nothing strange about the idea of several different subspecies or breeds of wild horse during the late Pleistocene and early Holocene, and we can be sure that the horse was domesticated at least before 2000 BC.
83.254.154.164 (
talk) 22:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus that they are. Unless one can change that consensus through convincing argument here on the Talk page, this should not be changed in the article to suggest that there is some disagreement on this point. Agricolae ( talk) 07:17, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
1)There is a clear consensus that they are. 2)There is a clear consensus that they are not. 1 or 2 ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 ( talk) 08:00, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
there is source of survival of this subspecies
Genet. Mol. Res. 10 (4): 4104-4113 (2011) Received March 25, 2011 Accepted August 8, 2011 Published October 31, 2011 DOI http://dx.doi.org/10.4238/2011.October.31.7
du u:a refer this to blogpost ? 99.90.196.227 ( talk) 07:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the following paragraph: "In modern use, the term has been loosely used to refer to the predomesticated ancestor of the modern horse, Equus ferus, to the predomestic subspecies believed to have lived into the historic era, Equus ferus ferus, and to all European primitive or "wild" horses in general. The modern "bred-back" horse breeds are also promoted as "tarpan" by their supporters, though researchers discourage this use of the word, which they believe should only apply to the ancient E. ferus ferus.", currently marked as "citation needed," this is a summary of the contents of one of the sources referenced in the following Taxonomy section, which contains a shorter version of the same material ("It is debated if the small, free-roaming horses seen in the forests of Europe during 18th and 19th centuries and called "tarpan" were indeed wild, never-domesticated horses, hybrids of the Przewalski's horse and local domestic animals, or simply feral horses.") I have just restored the reference in the Taxonomy section, where it was likely removed because the link was broken for some time due to the PLOS Paleocommunity Blog being migrated to The Official PLOS Blog. I suggest to restore it in the Name and Etymology section as well because, while the wording is different, the contents clearly refer to the same source. I marked it as "<ref name=Castelli>" in the Taxonomy section. Kileytoo ( talk) 12:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
A recent study by Librado et al. 2021 found that the horses called "tarpan" came about by hybridization between domestic horses and wild horses, in particular the Cherson tarpan. It never was clear if the horses called "tarpan" were truly wild or feral horses, but the new study seems to suggest they were hybrids and therefore not synonymous with the original European wild horse. A distinction should be made between the horses of the Russian steppe from the 18th to 20th century that were called tarpans, and the actual European wild horse. I suggest to split the article into two, one for the tarpan and one for the European wild horse. In the current form, the article is misleading and compares apples to bananas. DFoidl ( talk) 11:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
If nobody has objections against the plan to split the article into two, I'm going to realize it in the next couple of days. DFoidl ( talk) 15:13, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
OK. I made some changes. The article now appreciates the fact that the nature of the horses called tarpan is a matter of debate, and I added the new study. Where studies are cited that refer to unambiguous wild horses, such as the coat colour genetics studies, the horses are called wild horses in the article. Where definitely only the horses called tarpan are mentioned, they are called tarpan in the article. I also had to eradicate some repetitions of passages (f.e. the horses at Zamosc). DFoidl ( talk) 18:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
In the article it is written that the "tarpan" individual that was used in the study by Librado et al. was the "Shatilov tarpan" which died in 1868. The study, however, does not say that explicitly, it just says it was a "tarpan" from the Kherson region that is now in the collection of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Sankt Petersburg. I think we would need additional references for the nickname and death date of that "tarpan" and that it was indeed the one that was used in the study to clarify this, especially since some sources refer to the "Cherson tarpan" as "Shatilov's tarpan" because that individual was donated to the Moscow zoo by Shatilov in 1884 according to Falz-Fein cited in Oelke 2012, causing confusion - or have I overlooked something? Thanks. DFoidl ( talk) 14:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)