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I think that someone should probably add a little bit more in the way of discussing the position of skeptics, and the evidence for their claims. As it is right now, the article mainly seems to be a criticism of the skeptics, as that is basically the only section. I might be wrong here, but that is just the sense that I got. Rupert'sscribe ( talk) 22:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
As of a further review of the article, I have determined that the article is unbiased, but a little more discussion of the views of skeptics would not hurt. Rupert'sscribe ( talk) 12:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Someone has done a really good job of cleaning this article up. Good work __ 83.76.115.133 17:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Proposed article for political and other viewpoints on global warming theory and similar environmental concerns which run counter to environmentalism, balanced of course by criticism of these viewpoints.
The Skeptical Enviro, Misleading Math, and Lomborg articles would be more informative grouped together in one long article, where the impartial observer can get the full story.
There's something inherently wrong about the way this entry is constructed in my view, since it lumps such a wide swath of issues and motivations together into a single -ism. Is it more contrarianism than skepticism? Does it include Creationists, who question scientists? Are they trying to "evaluate concerns" or are they trying to challenge the consensus/official policy? Do they use statistical analysis or do they challenge statistical studies as not being "proof"? Just my $.02. --TheCunctator
Currently the Environmental skepticism article as it is, is quite politically correct when it could very easy start drifting POV, I know we discussed Bjørn Lomborg at the bottom of the page, but rather unfavourably, i'm not comfortable having such an extreme and controversial figure as the poster child for the Environmental skeptic article. It seems to me it would be similar to putting a picture of Cheech And Chong on the Environmentalist page. - UnlimitedAccess 8 July 2005 21:05 (UTC)
I would be interested to know why the grammar and syntax in this entry and all entries dealing even tangentally with "environmental skepticism" falls so short of the usual. I suspect much of the material is the product of one editor. This is problematic in my view (the editing, not the grammar) for several reasons. Chiefly, the perception that the material is just "one guys opinion". I am not an authority on the topic and thus will not meddle with what is here but I wish someone else would.
Feel free to correct my Engrish. :) "BL->Extremist" wouldn't be NPOV unless it is attributed to Green. Among Environmental skeptic, he is probably a poster child. Personally, I believe that the entire reference to BL should be deleted. FWBOarticle
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science is a mockery. It souldn't be mentioned in this bibliography: Environmental Skepticism isn't a right-wing paranoia....
This article as it stands is not up to WP guidelines. It is entirely unsourced in the body. The bibliography is only a list of works by assorted skeptics or contrarians.
While I can see a case for having a page of this title, for this widely used catch-phrase, we would need to do a lot to rework it to meet guidelines of WP:ATT and WP:NOR.
As for Lomborg, he is a notable figure in this area and definitely deserves a significant place in the article (if we keep it at all). His book was widely read and generated a lot of discussion. To say he would be too extreme an example of the category is not really realistic; what would be the point in toning down this page to only talk about people who are only "a little bit" skeptical? Let's discuss the real, notable skeptics if we are going to write about this topic. Birdbrainscan 16:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
By the way I don't want to belittle the current versions of the article -- it's not so bad of a summary of what the term can be understood to mean. Indeed, I'm a little unclear on the rule of WP:NOR where one is trying to explain a commonly used phrase, create the context in which we all are hearing and using the term. That's quite a bit harder to document than claims like "A said B about C on date D." Birdbrainscan 16:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I find that statement a little one sided and I'm sick of this Not every look fram a diffrent perspective concerned about commen sence and the coast to the porgress of hummanity Is a stooge of Wealthy elites or larg coperat interests, but are from poeple genuenly concerned with the material well being and economic stability of Humanity-- J intela ( talk) 23:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not the implication. The implication is that those skeptics/deniers arguments are rhetorically equivalent to those of holocaust deniers. -- NicoSuave ( talk) 23:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The leader justifies skepticism as covering denial with a citation that has 'denial' in its title and which distinguishes between the two. That is a bad cite. I don't doubt some AGW people do this but it is not as general as this article implies and it should have a better citation. Also climate change denial covers the industrial and political astroturfing campaign. Dmcq ( talk) 15:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this article has any good citations for its topic being named the way it is except the book that gives it its name. I see no point in two articles covering the same thing. Climate change denial covers the topic, I believe this one should be deleted and will stick a prod on for starters. Dmcq ( talk) 16:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I've chopped a lot out of this article which seemed to be a duplicate of climate change denial, even the citations just mentioned denial rather than skepticism.
I think there is possibly good article to be written about environmental skepticism. The climate change denial is about the organized rubbishing of climate change for financial or other interests whereas environmental skepticism is I believe more about individual reaction to the science of climate change. As opposed to scientific skepticism it isn't about the science so much as psychological denial. The climate change denial article though does not deal with psychological denial so much as organized industry or political action. Dmcq ( talk) 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
This article [2] discussing the liberal conservative split says things aong the lines I think might be relevant to this article. Dmcq ( talk) 16:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
In changed the name of this section to "Examples of skeptical works and analyses of skepticism" because it wasn't really a bibliography, but rather a list some example environmental skeptic books, and then at least one book about environmental skepticism. I think it would be good to divide this section into separate sections: "Examples of skeptical works" (or some more elegant title) and "Analyses of skepticism" or something like that. I'm unfamiliar with a few of the list books, and wondering if someone can suggest which bin they go in. "Examples" would include Bethell's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science; Huber's Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists; Lomborg's The Skeptical Environmentalist; Driessen's "Eco-Imperialism: Green Power, Black Death"; and Michaels The Satanic Gases: Clearing the Air about Global Warming. Analyses would include Mooney's Republican War on Science and I can think of a few others not currently listed on the page. The following works I'm unfamiliar with:
Anyone know which category these belong in? Yilloslime T C 20:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I see 86.** IP wants to delete this and as for Climate change alarmism doesn't care where it goes and couldn't be bothered to check the suitability of the proposed merge destinations. I don't know who the 'we' is or where the need comes from in the reasoning, some friends from the fringe theories project?
Anyway global warming controversy is unsuitable as a destination. It is far better thought of as a target for 'skeptic' where a skeptic is an actual skeptic rather than an environmental skeptic which mainly covers a lot of people who just rev up their SUVs and don't want to change. The third main type of skeptic is covered by the climate change denial article and that is quite different yet again. The Skeptical Environmentalist certainly lent a name to this but the includes relation is the wrong way there and this has a load of its own references.
The big problem though that I see is this burning desire to delete everything like this without a clear idea what they are about or where the information naturally goes. And the problem this article has with that is that if you want to remove global warming conspiracy and this article then even though this article isn't as well developed as Global warming conspiracy this article is the natural place to place the larger article if one or the other has to go. And possibly the alarmism content could go here too. The most relevant next article up I think is possibly public opinion on climate change but it really isn't suitable to hold the contents. Dmcq ( talk) 18:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
One can see the problem with Climate change skeptic which quite rightly I believe redirects to global warming controversy on the assumption that the meaning a user will first have is of somebody having reasonable questions. We need something like this article to cover the second tranche of 'skeptics'. Dmcq ( talk) 18:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
CuriousCorvid.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I could have sworn that skepticism includes acceptance of evidence once followed (as opposed to led, of course).
"Environmental skepticism is the belief that..."
I also could have sworn that skepticism is not a belief. This seems just a touch sloppy. Karin Anker ( talk) 16:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Don't really do this so bear with me. I tried to check the source on his quote "Global warming is real - it is man-made and it is an important problem. But it is not the end of the world." and the Brett Michael Dykes yahoo news link was dead. Found it through a yahoo search and saw that the quote is from the article where Brett says: Lomborg's essential argument was: Yes, global warming is real and human behavior is the main reason for it, but the world has far more important things to worry about. There are no quotations around Brett's supposed quote, and it's pointed out that's Lomborg's "essential argument". Doesn't that mean it's not a direct quote, and shouldn't be displayed as such on here? Could someone check that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.121.57 ( talk) 13:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a lot to say about his topic that is not said or that is left buried in the further reading list. The article also definitely needs some updating for current sourcing.
As stated earlier on this talk page by others I am not super happy with the term skepticism here when cynicism or denial seems more appropriate but that seems to be the term that most of the sources I'm running into have chosen. Unfortunately it appears we're kind of stuck with that unless we make a new article called environmental denial or environmental cynicism, paste all this there and make a redirect. But I don't know, I guess update first and then see where that goes before opening a formal discussion on changing?
I saw some sources and such above I'll be digging through and will be doing a good deal of digging on my own. I'll incorporate anything that anyone else cares to find.
Rap Chart Mike ( talk) 16:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
A new section made by new User:Beaufort125. It does not seem to fit in. The article should explain what "environmental skepticism" is. The new section is written like a whole article itself, and not in a very encyclopedic way. But we already have an article about that, using the proper term for it: Climate change denial. So, I don't think this belongs here. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:18, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think that someone should probably add a little bit more in the way of discussing the position of skeptics, and the evidence for their claims. As it is right now, the article mainly seems to be a criticism of the skeptics, as that is basically the only section. I might be wrong here, but that is just the sense that I got. Rupert'sscribe ( talk) 22:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
As of a further review of the article, I have determined that the article is unbiased, but a little more discussion of the views of skeptics would not hurt. Rupert'sscribe ( talk) 12:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Someone has done a really good job of cleaning this article up. Good work __ 83.76.115.133 17:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Proposed article for political and other viewpoints on global warming theory and similar environmental concerns which run counter to environmentalism, balanced of course by criticism of these viewpoints.
The Skeptical Enviro, Misleading Math, and Lomborg articles would be more informative grouped together in one long article, where the impartial observer can get the full story.
There's something inherently wrong about the way this entry is constructed in my view, since it lumps such a wide swath of issues and motivations together into a single -ism. Is it more contrarianism than skepticism? Does it include Creationists, who question scientists? Are they trying to "evaluate concerns" or are they trying to challenge the consensus/official policy? Do they use statistical analysis or do they challenge statistical studies as not being "proof"? Just my $.02. --TheCunctator
Currently the Environmental skepticism article as it is, is quite politically correct when it could very easy start drifting POV, I know we discussed Bjørn Lomborg at the bottom of the page, but rather unfavourably, i'm not comfortable having such an extreme and controversial figure as the poster child for the Environmental skeptic article. It seems to me it would be similar to putting a picture of Cheech And Chong on the Environmentalist page. - UnlimitedAccess 8 July 2005 21:05 (UTC)
I would be interested to know why the grammar and syntax in this entry and all entries dealing even tangentally with "environmental skepticism" falls so short of the usual. I suspect much of the material is the product of one editor. This is problematic in my view (the editing, not the grammar) for several reasons. Chiefly, the perception that the material is just "one guys opinion". I am not an authority on the topic and thus will not meddle with what is here but I wish someone else would.
Feel free to correct my Engrish. :) "BL->Extremist" wouldn't be NPOV unless it is attributed to Green. Among Environmental skeptic, he is probably a poster child. Personally, I believe that the entire reference to BL should be deleted. FWBOarticle
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science is a mockery. It souldn't be mentioned in this bibliography: Environmental Skepticism isn't a right-wing paranoia....
This article as it stands is not up to WP guidelines. It is entirely unsourced in the body. The bibliography is only a list of works by assorted skeptics or contrarians.
While I can see a case for having a page of this title, for this widely used catch-phrase, we would need to do a lot to rework it to meet guidelines of WP:ATT and WP:NOR.
As for Lomborg, he is a notable figure in this area and definitely deserves a significant place in the article (if we keep it at all). His book was widely read and generated a lot of discussion. To say he would be too extreme an example of the category is not really realistic; what would be the point in toning down this page to only talk about people who are only "a little bit" skeptical? Let's discuss the real, notable skeptics if we are going to write about this topic. Birdbrainscan 16:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
By the way I don't want to belittle the current versions of the article -- it's not so bad of a summary of what the term can be understood to mean. Indeed, I'm a little unclear on the rule of WP:NOR where one is trying to explain a commonly used phrase, create the context in which we all are hearing and using the term. That's quite a bit harder to document than claims like "A said B about C on date D." Birdbrainscan 16:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I find that statement a little one sided and I'm sick of this Not every look fram a diffrent perspective concerned about commen sence and the coast to the porgress of hummanity Is a stooge of Wealthy elites or larg coperat interests, but are from poeple genuenly concerned with the material well being and economic stability of Humanity-- J intela ( talk) 23:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not the implication. The implication is that those skeptics/deniers arguments are rhetorically equivalent to those of holocaust deniers. -- NicoSuave ( talk) 23:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The leader justifies skepticism as covering denial with a citation that has 'denial' in its title and which distinguishes between the two. That is a bad cite. I don't doubt some AGW people do this but it is not as general as this article implies and it should have a better citation. Also climate change denial covers the industrial and political astroturfing campaign. Dmcq ( talk) 15:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this article has any good citations for its topic being named the way it is except the book that gives it its name. I see no point in two articles covering the same thing. Climate change denial covers the topic, I believe this one should be deleted and will stick a prod on for starters. Dmcq ( talk) 16:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I've chopped a lot out of this article which seemed to be a duplicate of climate change denial, even the citations just mentioned denial rather than skepticism.
I think there is possibly good article to be written about environmental skepticism. The climate change denial is about the organized rubbishing of climate change for financial or other interests whereas environmental skepticism is I believe more about individual reaction to the science of climate change. As opposed to scientific skepticism it isn't about the science so much as psychological denial. The climate change denial article though does not deal with psychological denial so much as organized industry or political action. Dmcq ( talk) 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
This article [2] discussing the liberal conservative split says things aong the lines I think might be relevant to this article. Dmcq ( talk) 16:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
In changed the name of this section to "Examples of skeptical works and analyses of skepticism" because it wasn't really a bibliography, but rather a list some example environmental skeptic books, and then at least one book about environmental skepticism. I think it would be good to divide this section into separate sections: "Examples of skeptical works" (or some more elegant title) and "Analyses of skepticism" or something like that. I'm unfamiliar with a few of the list books, and wondering if someone can suggest which bin they go in. "Examples" would include Bethell's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science; Huber's Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists; Lomborg's The Skeptical Environmentalist; Driessen's "Eco-Imperialism: Green Power, Black Death"; and Michaels The Satanic Gases: Clearing the Air about Global Warming. Analyses would include Mooney's Republican War on Science and I can think of a few others not currently listed on the page. The following works I'm unfamiliar with:
Anyone know which category these belong in? Yilloslime T C 20:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I see 86.** IP wants to delete this and as for Climate change alarmism doesn't care where it goes and couldn't be bothered to check the suitability of the proposed merge destinations. I don't know who the 'we' is or where the need comes from in the reasoning, some friends from the fringe theories project?
Anyway global warming controversy is unsuitable as a destination. It is far better thought of as a target for 'skeptic' where a skeptic is an actual skeptic rather than an environmental skeptic which mainly covers a lot of people who just rev up their SUVs and don't want to change. The third main type of skeptic is covered by the climate change denial article and that is quite different yet again. The Skeptical Environmentalist certainly lent a name to this but the includes relation is the wrong way there and this has a load of its own references.
The big problem though that I see is this burning desire to delete everything like this without a clear idea what they are about or where the information naturally goes. And the problem this article has with that is that if you want to remove global warming conspiracy and this article then even though this article isn't as well developed as Global warming conspiracy this article is the natural place to place the larger article if one or the other has to go. And possibly the alarmism content could go here too. The most relevant next article up I think is possibly public opinion on climate change but it really isn't suitable to hold the contents. Dmcq ( talk) 18:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
One can see the problem with Climate change skeptic which quite rightly I believe redirects to global warming controversy on the assumption that the meaning a user will first have is of somebody having reasonable questions. We need something like this article to cover the second tranche of 'skeptics'. Dmcq ( talk) 18:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
CuriousCorvid.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I could have sworn that skepticism includes acceptance of evidence once followed (as opposed to led, of course).
"Environmental skepticism is the belief that..."
I also could have sworn that skepticism is not a belief. This seems just a touch sloppy. Karin Anker ( talk) 16:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Don't really do this so bear with me. I tried to check the source on his quote "Global warming is real - it is man-made and it is an important problem. But it is not the end of the world." and the Brett Michael Dykes yahoo news link was dead. Found it through a yahoo search and saw that the quote is from the article where Brett says: Lomborg's essential argument was: Yes, global warming is real and human behavior is the main reason for it, but the world has far more important things to worry about. There are no quotations around Brett's supposed quote, and it's pointed out that's Lomborg's "essential argument". Doesn't that mean it's not a direct quote, and shouldn't be displayed as such on here? Could someone check that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.121.57 ( talk) 13:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a lot to say about his topic that is not said or that is left buried in the further reading list. The article also definitely needs some updating for current sourcing.
As stated earlier on this talk page by others I am not super happy with the term skepticism here when cynicism or denial seems more appropriate but that seems to be the term that most of the sources I'm running into have chosen. Unfortunately it appears we're kind of stuck with that unless we make a new article called environmental denial or environmental cynicism, paste all this there and make a redirect. But I don't know, I guess update first and then see where that goes before opening a formal discussion on changing?
I saw some sources and such above I'll be digging through and will be doing a good deal of digging on my own. I'll incorporate anything that anyone else cares to find.
Rap Chart Mike ( talk) 16:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
A new section made by new User:Beaufort125. It does not seem to fit in. The article should explain what "environmental skepticism" is. The new section is written like a whole article itself, and not in a very encyclopedic way. But we already have an article about that, using the proper term for it: Climate change denial. So, I don't think this belongs here. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:18, 7 November 2021 (UTC)