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Just wondering: since the alphabetical list of European nations seems to emphasize potentially controversial elements of their respective depictions, would there be a case for pointing out that the drones of the bagpipe are arranged in a manner which brings to mind the English Crown? I've heard people speculating about it today, and I thought that, since some of the descriptions of the pieces, such as the Image of the Prophet Mohammad and the Swastika Sign, are included in the article despite being just subjective perceptions (as far as I know), the seeming image of the 'Crown' might also be appropriate?
Just a suggestion.
I thought I'd nominate this article for a spot in the Did you know? section of the Main Page. If you have any more interesting "hooks" then please add them. Jolly Ω Janner 23:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I have been to Justus Lipsius to see the sculpture and have taken some pictures which I am ready to release under cc-by-sa in Commons, for instance. I wonder if then they would be welcome to appear in the article? They are not that good, actually, since taken through a glass wall as I could not get inside the building. But I will probably be able to get to the inauguration at 11 a.m. Brussels time, so maybe then I could replace it with yet something better. Or is there any legal problem why the pictures could not appear here? Blahma ( talk) 00:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
(Edit conflicted) I just looked at Commons:Commons:Licensing#Checklist and as the artist is still alive, it is not okay. I'm not sure if it's a permenant piece of artwork, but that doesn't change the matter. If you're still unsure (I'm not 100% sure) then ask at Commons:Commons:Help desk. Jolly Ω Janner 00:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I uploaded two images and placed one of them ( File:Entropa.jpg) in the article. I had difficulties identifying the current option in the dropdown box in the upload form, so I eventually added the copyright info myself, copying and adapting it from a similar case image. As far as Commons is concerned, I will ask at the page you suggested. If you consider that the other one ( File:Entropa-detail.jpg) is also worth using in the article (or perhaps could replace the present one there), feel free to edit the article. I just could not come to a decision which of them is better, so I uploaded the two. Blahma ( talk) 01:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
{{db-author}}
, since you're the uploader. Best,
Politizer
talk/
contribs
01:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)According to a slide show at the Times Online, the Spanish segment features a bomb, not a cement mixer, situated in the Basque region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.192.88 ( talk) 15:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I too thought at first sight that it was a bomb, perhaps in reference to the 1966 Palomares B-52 crash, but the place was wrong. Closer examination made it perfectly clear that it's a cement mixer, and it seems to me that the confusion is accidental rather than deliberate. The cement mixer, by the way, is south of the Basque region. I would say it's on the Rioja region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlb-1150 ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Some of the countries have less memorable (for me) shapes and what fills them isn't obvious. I'm needing to go back and forth between the full-size image and the article.
Ideal would be a full-size image of each country next to each description, in a gallery like Presidential transition of Barack Obama. It's a hunt to identify all 27 countries and what they represent in this sculpture. It greatly increases my understanding as the sculpture often differs from what I imagine based on the text. I think it'd be more encyclopedic to cut Entropa.jpg into its components and *not* have the full image, which might satisfy WP:NFCC 3a and b, as each part of the image would be used once. The scale is impressive, but less important than its parts. People could compare the elements a lot easier.
If there's balking at all those images, second best is adding the country's name, short description text, and arrows to the countries in the image itself. Galatee ( talk) 16:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
While the quotations in this section are interesting, I have been concerned about them from the beginning, and it's probably time we do something about it. As far as I can tell, there are no inclusion criteria for these quotations—there's nothing that defines them as influential or important, they're just the quotes that we like. They should probably be reintegrated into the main text where possible (not necessarily as block quotes, either), and deleted where not. If no one has any objections, I will probably start working on that sometime today. Politizer talk/ contribs 17:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
The entry for Finland is probably based on this joke: 'An American, a Frenchman and a Finn go on a safari in Africa. They're walking through some bushes, and suddenly they come across an elephant. How do they react? The American: "I wonder how much money I could get for those tusks..." The Frenchman: "I wonder what kind of a love life this elephant has...", The Finn: "I wonder what this elephant thinks about me..."' – Kaihsu ( talk) 17:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this is me again. I actually managed to get to the press conference in Brussel at which they inaugurated the sculpture and it started moving and making sounds. It was even not that tough, since I discovered you only have to be courages a bit and get checked by the security guys and then you are in the atrium - voilà! I have spent some three hours there today and taken some hundred pictures, of which the best I uploaded now. There are now new versions of File:Entropa.jpg and File:Entropa-detail.jpg, and I also decided to add File:Entropa-rectangular.jpg and File:Entropa-detail-rectangular.jpg, which are pictures taken from the first floor (situated above the building's entrance) and as such they show the sculpture from a quite direct angle which may be a plus if you sometime intend to cut it in pieces. Moreover, I also tried to take a picture of each of the countries, so if you realized you could use those in some way in the article, let me know and I can deliver those as well (although not all of them are extremly good ones, since I did not pay that much attention to this subtask as to the main task). My question in Commons on the fair-use issue has unfortunately not yet got any answer, though. Blahma ( talk) 18:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I feel stupid asking this so late, but does anyone know the meaning/significance behind the name? I haven't seen anything anywhere...I assume it has something to do with entropy but who knows. Do any of the sources have anything to say on this? It would probably benefit the article is we could clarify it. Politizer talk/ contribs 22:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
The sculpture is 16 meters on each side, i.e. 256 square meters (not 16 square meter as the article claims). I had corrected this but somebody changed it back. (The size has been written wrong in may newspapers, but if it were 16 sq meter it would be only 4 meter on each side - look at the photo and you see that this can't be true.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.55.198.251 ( talk) 23:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"it soon came to light, however, that it was made only by Černý and three assistants."
"Černý officially admitted that the piece was really created entirely by him and two friends"
"Černý's collaborators' names were given as Tomáš Pospiszyl, Viktor Frešo and Krištof Kintera."
Perhaps the artists' names should be higher up in the article, and the "two friends" statement is clearly misleading.
85.234.138.73 ( talk) 01:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
In reply to blahma's posting, I should point out that the Atrium part of the Justus Lipsius building, where Entropa is, is accessible to the public (you just need to let the security guards x-ray your bags and go through a metal detector). No need to bluff your way through or drum up any courage. Anybody who is in Brussels during the first half of 2009 can take a close look to the installation. I suggest you bring a pair of binoculars to apprieciate the finer points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlb-1150 ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The italian football players are definitely masturbating with the balls. The text in the brochure was made even more explicit when the sculpture was switched on at the opening on 15 January, and the figures started moving in a way that left nothing to the imagination.
There is a small fight about Manneken Pis in a description Lithuania. Depicted men have apparently nothing to do with Manneken Pis. I placed "citation needed" there since I have seen no relevant source claiming that. Miraceti ( talk) 13:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering - are the pieces intended to be (mostly) to scale, and if so would the pieces actually fit together if taken out of the frame?
(Or rather, might there have been a map of Europe which was cut into the various pieces, then given over for each country's specific entry?) -- Nerroth ( talk) 13:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi again.
Sorry to post a second section so quickly, but when it says that the UK is absent, isn't it more accurate to say that Britain as an island is absent, given the inclusion of Northern Ireland as bagpipe-land? -- Nerroth ( talk) 14:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Could the Irish uilleann pipes suggest Ireland's under-utilisation of its
wind resources? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.125.22.177 (
talk)
17:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
If you have a chance, please take a look at User:Galatee's excellent suggestion above about turning the list of countries into a gallery with an image for each country and a brief description. As for me, I would be interested in pursuing it, but I'd like to hear more opinions first, since it would probably require generating 26 fair-use images (which is a lot). Politizer talk/ contribs 17:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Any idea about them? I wish if someone could list them here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fnugh ( talk • contribs)
Today, I received a warning, that some of my uploads which are now orphaned (not used in the article) are going to be removed from Wikipedia on January 24. These are File:Entropa.jpg, File:Entropa-detail.jpg and File:Entropa-detail-rectangular.jpg. So if any of you thinks of making some use of them, it's probable now the time to do that. Otherwise, they will disappear in a week. What I feel uncomfortable about is, that there is a plenty of websites around that link to (or even directly embed) the older picture File:Entropa.jpg (plus definitely also others that use the current picture File:Entropa-rectangular.jpg). It would be good not to break these links, but at the moment I cannot think of a solution, since a simple redirect would probably break those links which go directly to the JPG file at upload.wikimedia.org. Do some you see a solution for this? Blahma ( talk) 15:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I have just uploaded File:Entropa-Bulgaria-covered.jpg which I took yesterday at Justus Lipsius, upon being asked for such a picture by Sladen. It would be great if some of you can already crop and otherwise properly edit it and use it in the article for comparison as originally intended. And it would be particularly good to do it yet today, while the article appears in the DYN section of the main page. Thank you for cooperation. Blahma ( talk) 09:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
CliffC just brought to my attention an NYT article that might be a useful ref here:
Politizer talk/ contribs 22:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Entropa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Entropa appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 23 January 2009, and was viewed approximately 19,100 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
Just wondering: since the alphabetical list of European nations seems to emphasize potentially controversial elements of their respective depictions, would there be a case for pointing out that the drones of the bagpipe are arranged in a manner which brings to mind the English Crown? I've heard people speculating about it today, and I thought that, since some of the descriptions of the pieces, such as the Image of the Prophet Mohammad and the Swastika Sign, are included in the article despite being just subjective perceptions (as far as I know), the seeming image of the 'Crown' might also be appropriate?
Just a suggestion.
I thought I'd nominate this article for a spot in the Did you know? section of the Main Page. If you have any more interesting "hooks" then please add them. Jolly Ω Janner 23:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I have been to Justus Lipsius to see the sculpture and have taken some pictures which I am ready to release under cc-by-sa in Commons, for instance. I wonder if then they would be welcome to appear in the article? They are not that good, actually, since taken through a glass wall as I could not get inside the building. But I will probably be able to get to the inauguration at 11 a.m. Brussels time, so maybe then I could replace it with yet something better. Or is there any legal problem why the pictures could not appear here? Blahma ( talk) 00:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
(Edit conflicted) I just looked at Commons:Commons:Licensing#Checklist and as the artist is still alive, it is not okay. I'm not sure if it's a permenant piece of artwork, but that doesn't change the matter. If you're still unsure (I'm not 100% sure) then ask at Commons:Commons:Help desk. Jolly Ω Janner 00:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I uploaded two images and placed one of them ( File:Entropa.jpg) in the article. I had difficulties identifying the current option in the dropdown box in the upload form, so I eventually added the copyright info myself, copying and adapting it from a similar case image. As far as Commons is concerned, I will ask at the page you suggested. If you consider that the other one ( File:Entropa-detail.jpg) is also worth using in the article (or perhaps could replace the present one there), feel free to edit the article. I just could not come to a decision which of them is better, so I uploaded the two. Blahma ( talk) 01:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
{{db-author}}
, since you're the uploader. Best,
Politizer
talk/
contribs
01:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)According to a slide show at the Times Online, the Spanish segment features a bomb, not a cement mixer, situated in the Basque region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.192.88 ( talk) 15:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I too thought at first sight that it was a bomb, perhaps in reference to the 1966 Palomares B-52 crash, but the place was wrong. Closer examination made it perfectly clear that it's a cement mixer, and it seems to me that the confusion is accidental rather than deliberate. The cement mixer, by the way, is south of the Basque region. I would say it's on the Rioja region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlb-1150 ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Some of the countries have less memorable (for me) shapes and what fills them isn't obvious. I'm needing to go back and forth between the full-size image and the article.
Ideal would be a full-size image of each country next to each description, in a gallery like Presidential transition of Barack Obama. It's a hunt to identify all 27 countries and what they represent in this sculpture. It greatly increases my understanding as the sculpture often differs from what I imagine based on the text. I think it'd be more encyclopedic to cut Entropa.jpg into its components and *not* have the full image, which might satisfy WP:NFCC 3a and b, as each part of the image would be used once. The scale is impressive, but less important than its parts. People could compare the elements a lot easier.
If there's balking at all those images, second best is adding the country's name, short description text, and arrows to the countries in the image itself. Galatee ( talk) 16:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
While the quotations in this section are interesting, I have been concerned about them from the beginning, and it's probably time we do something about it. As far as I can tell, there are no inclusion criteria for these quotations—there's nothing that defines them as influential or important, they're just the quotes that we like. They should probably be reintegrated into the main text where possible (not necessarily as block quotes, either), and deleted where not. If no one has any objections, I will probably start working on that sometime today. Politizer talk/ contribs 17:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
The entry for Finland is probably based on this joke: 'An American, a Frenchman and a Finn go on a safari in Africa. They're walking through some bushes, and suddenly they come across an elephant. How do they react? The American: "I wonder how much money I could get for those tusks..." The Frenchman: "I wonder what kind of a love life this elephant has...", The Finn: "I wonder what this elephant thinks about me..."' – Kaihsu ( talk) 17:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello, this is me again. I actually managed to get to the press conference in Brussel at which they inaugurated the sculpture and it started moving and making sounds. It was even not that tough, since I discovered you only have to be courages a bit and get checked by the security guys and then you are in the atrium - voilà! I have spent some three hours there today and taken some hundred pictures, of which the best I uploaded now. There are now new versions of File:Entropa.jpg and File:Entropa-detail.jpg, and I also decided to add File:Entropa-rectangular.jpg and File:Entropa-detail-rectangular.jpg, which are pictures taken from the first floor (situated above the building's entrance) and as such they show the sculpture from a quite direct angle which may be a plus if you sometime intend to cut it in pieces. Moreover, I also tried to take a picture of each of the countries, so if you realized you could use those in some way in the article, let me know and I can deliver those as well (although not all of them are extremly good ones, since I did not pay that much attention to this subtask as to the main task). My question in Commons on the fair-use issue has unfortunately not yet got any answer, though. Blahma ( talk) 18:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I feel stupid asking this so late, but does anyone know the meaning/significance behind the name? I haven't seen anything anywhere...I assume it has something to do with entropy but who knows. Do any of the sources have anything to say on this? It would probably benefit the article is we could clarify it. Politizer talk/ contribs 22:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
The sculpture is 16 meters on each side, i.e. 256 square meters (not 16 square meter as the article claims). I had corrected this but somebody changed it back. (The size has been written wrong in may newspapers, but if it were 16 sq meter it would be only 4 meter on each side - look at the photo and you see that this can't be true.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.55.198.251 ( talk) 23:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"it soon came to light, however, that it was made only by Černý and three assistants."
"Černý officially admitted that the piece was really created entirely by him and two friends"
"Černý's collaborators' names were given as Tomáš Pospiszyl, Viktor Frešo and Krištof Kintera."
Perhaps the artists' names should be higher up in the article, and the "two friends" statement is clearly misleading.
85.234.138.73 ( talk) 01:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
In reply to blahma's posting, I should point out that the Atrium part of the Justus Lipsius building, where Entropa is, is accessible to the public (you just need to let the security guards x-ray your bags and go through a metal detector). No need to bluff your way through or drum up any courage. Anybody who is in Brussels during the first half of 2009 can take a close look to the installation. I suggest you bring a pair of binoculars to apprieciate the finer points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlb-1150 ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The italian football players are definitely masturbating with the balls. The text in the brochure was made even more explicit when the sculpture was switched on at the opening on 15 January, and the figures started moving in a way that left nothing to the imagination.
There is a small fight about Manneken Pis in a description Lithuania. Depicted men have apparently nothing to do with Manneken Pis. I placed "citation needed" there since I have seen no relevant source claiming that. Miraceti ( talk) 13:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering - are the pieces intended to be (mostly) to scale, and if so would the pieces actually fit together if taken out of the frame?
(Or rather, might there have been a map of Europe which was cut into the various pieces, then given over for each country's specific entry?) -- Nerroth ( talk) 13:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi again.
Sorry to post a second section so quickly, but when it says that the UK is absent, isn't it more accurate to say that Britain as an island is absent, given the inclusion of Northern Ireland as bagpipe-land? -- Nerroth ( talk) 14:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Could the Irish uilleann pipes suggest Ireland's under-utilisation of its
wind resources? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.125.22.177 (
talk)
17:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
If you have a chance, please take a look at User:Galatee's excellent suggestion above about turning the list of countries into a gallery with an image for each country and a brief description. As for me, I would be interested in pursuing it, but I'd like to hear more opinions first, since it would probably require generating 26 fair-use images (which is a lot). Politizer talk/ contribs 17:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Any idea about them? I wish if someone could list them here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fnugh ( talk • contribs)
Today, I received a warning, that some of my uploads which are now orphaned (not used in the article) are going to be removed from Wikipedia on January 24. These are File:Entropa.jpg, File:Entropa-detail.jpg and File:Entropa-detail-rectangular.jpg. So if any of you thinks of making some use of them, it's probable now the time to do that. Otherwise, they will disappear in a week. What I feel uncomfortable about is, that there is a plenty of websites around that link to (or even directly embed) the older picture File:Entropa.jpg (plus definitely also others that use the current picture File:Entropa-rectangular.jpg). It would be good not to break these links, but at the moment I cannot think of a solution, since a simple redirect would probably break those links which go directly to the JPG file at upload.wikimedia.org. Do some you see a solution for this? Blahma ( talk) 15:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I have just uploaded File:Entropa-Bulgaria-covered.jpg which I took yesterday at Justus Lipsius, upon being asked for such a picture by Sladen. It would be great if some of you can already crop and otherwise properly edit it and use it in the article for comparison as originally intended. And it would be particularly good to do it yet today, while the article appears in the DYN section of the main page. Thank you for cooperation. Blahma ( talk) 09:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
CliffC just brought to my attention an NYT article that might be a useful ref here:
Politizer talk/ contribs 22:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
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