The contents of the Enlightened despotism page were merged into Enlightened absolutism. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. (August 2018) |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Enlightened absolutism was copied or moved into Absolutism (European history) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I removed the Spielvogel quote because I felt that it was lacking the elaboration that would have been necessary in order to make it relevant. If someone wants to write more about the questioning of enlightened despotism's usefulness, possibly from a more interesting point of view than that of an introductory level textbook, feel free to put it back. I would like to further rework this article when I have more time (class starts in an hour? ACK!), but for now this will have to do. -- User:anakolouthon
Should this page include mention of Cyrus II? -- Vaergoth 01:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where this should go but someone's vandalized this, could someone revert it to whatever's good? I have no idea how to do this, I just read Wikipedia, but this article is messed up...
Just to let people know I intend to do a fairly serious re-write and expansion of this article. As a start I've removed references to such figures as Alexander the Great and Cyrus II being Enlightened Absolutists. The point being that Enlightened monarchs are influenced by the Enlightenment since these figures are pre-Enlightenment describing them as Enlightened seems to be nonsensical! Jezze 15:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
"In order to be considered "enlightened", they must allow religious toleration, freedom of speech and press, and the right to hold private property. They must foster the arts, sciences, and educations. Above all, they must not be arbitrary in their rules; they must obey the laws and enforce them fairly for all subjects." This paragraph in particular is dodgy, particularly the must, very few Enlightened absolutists fully embraced any of these principles. Eg. Catherine the Great set up different courts for different social orders and engaged in the continuing persecution of 'old believers' but is still considered by most historians to be an Enlightened Absolutist. Jezze 15:54, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.148.148 ( talk) 03:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Does it make sense to include someone as a "modern" enlightened absolutist? The term was coined to describe an evolution in the ideals of government following the Enlightenment, so I don't see why modern rulers would be described in these terms. Did they form their philosophy of rule after an extensive perusal of Enlightenment documents? Surely there is a better way of describing these rulers. — Vivacissamamente 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
How would one characterize monarchs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? They were practicing "enlightened" principles far before the monarchs mentioned below, and did not conduct the oppression manifested by some of the aforementioned monarchs. How does King Stanislaus Poniatowski fit in, in light of the May 3rd Constitution and its provisions? -~~
User:Lockesdonkey you clearly know more than a fair bit on the topic! The only criticism I would have of the edits you've made is the issue of constitution... I don't know what country you're from but written consitutions are a distinctly USA/French invention ie. the American Constitution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. In fact before the French Revolution, in Europe it appears, to me at least, that most constitutions of nations are based on what would now be called "common law" in working British Common Law, based on traditional rights and privileges as they existed. In the context both Absolutist and Enlightened Absolutist monarchs are exercising their rights within the existing, unwritten, Constitutions of the nations they rule... ( Jezze 05:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC))
Unless I am mistaken, Maria Theresa was not merely "of Austria," but Maria Theresa, Holy Roman Empress. As per the orders of the Pragmatic Sanction, the Hapsburgs decided to allow the crown to pass to Maria Theresa, daughter of the otherwise heirless Charles VI. In addition to ruling in her own right as empress, she also was co-ruler with her son Joseph II for 15 years (1765-1780). (Kagan, Donald. The Western Heritage, 8th ed. Upper Saddle River, N.J. : Prentice Hall, 2003. ISBN 0-13-182839-8) Xcountry99 23:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally I'm uneasy with his inclusion as an Enlightened Absolutist. While he does draw many ideas indirectly from the Enlightenment this seems more to do with post-Revolution culture in France, rather than the Enlightenment itself. I personally would not consider him an Enlightened absolutist but the first modern one. Any thoughts? Jezze 04:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
do you have a scholar to agree with you? or is there none that agree that he is an "enlighten absolutist"? Rds865 ( talk) 04:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Should Kemal Ataturk be added to the list? Just based on a little bit I've read about him. 12.179.169.122 ( talk) 13:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Like, hello people? Plato was the one of the first advocates of Enlightened despotism in his Republic. Gabr- el 06:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Plato idea were of many men like thoughts of today no ego- exsplained i can be a bad speller with no shame simple... example his projected moralitys of child like thoughts were clean and simple PURISM PROTOCAL Thoughts for another not oneself,projected as a simple passing smile and enlightened knollage,passed as a gift from simple engaged confersation and recieved as a gift not a tool.. and understand lightning stimulas,explain, thoughts of day are connected buetiful white light mindism a forgotten concept,natures wanted biths of the connected moralistic programe from the undeluded complex simple freed purism.. explained nature non-sinthetic, not man made intervention mans self amplified realism is truley of non-exsistance its only a act play of a clusster on intersepted thought thought role an agreement ..playwriter for socieity the modern haliquines man made charactors like cards in the wind rotating round the joker and the queen polatitions empriors and so on..
roman times so it be said so it be written was sureley so it be thought so it be wrote so it shall be played in realism like today the nowed.
heaven is the body of earth the mind is the universe your quesions are your answers dont make it real the undiluded complex.simple pure morality programe are the key and your the lock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.229.136 ( talk) 20:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
As my recent deletion of this section, which has been tagged since November 2007, was reverted, I would like to ask what the purpose of that section in this article is? The "characteristics" mentioned are only sourced with a news article about a specific case of one dictator that happens to be described as "Benevolent" by the journalist. It constitutes original research to make conclusions about this single case to "benevolent dictators" in general. The other source is Google Answers, where a person has listed his own homemade list of what he considers "benevolent dictators". I have not found a discussion concerning "Google Answers" in the archives of the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, but considering it was generally just a forum, I think it does not constitute a reliable source. As Wikipedia has the policy that unsourced, irrelevant and largely erronous information should be removed, I fail to see what keeps this section in this article (or in Wikipedia at all).-- Saddhiyama ( talk) 19:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
[1] [2] [3] [4] Now, all you have to do Saddihiyama is to read and click "next" on the bottom of each page. Maybe you would even want to click into some articles and weigh their value -- some are valuable and credible as sources worth citing, while others are not. Pretty neat, isn't it? How the same internet that connects to Wikipedia can be so readily used to access information with which to build or challenge information presently on Wikipedia? It's amazing! TeamZissou ( talk) 18:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Despite TeamZissous most recent (and very eloquent) defense of this section, I still have not seen any sources that backs up the claim that these two concepts are the same. It being holidays and all I am giving him or any other editor a week to provide the section with such sources. In the event that this will not happen I propose to move the benevolent dictatorship section to benevolent dictatorship (which currently is a redirect) and add a "See also" to each article in both articles. I will provide some extra sources for the enlightened absolutism section within a week as well, hopefully making the concept and its historiography a little clearer. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 18:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Section has been moved to benevolent dictatorship. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 14:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I found a mistake. my school webstie, as well as many other websites, say that joseph II said the quote "everything for the people, nothing by the people", but wikipedia says it is Johann Heinrich Gottlob Justi (1717-1771). that is wrong. i even asked my history teacher, and she says it is wrong too. Mschooler93 ( talk) 19:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I changed what is purported to be the title of an essay by Frederick the Great from "Benevolent despotism" to "Enlightened absolutism". Frederick wrote no work with "despotism" (or "despotisme" in French) in the title. See the bibliography of his works here. The source given is a collection of sources (The Portable Enlightenment Reader), and the title given in the index of that book is not necessarily the title of the original texts, as can be seen from numerous other examples in the index, but a title given by the editor Isaac Kramnick to a snippet of text taken from a letter or another work. As such it would be a misrepresentation of the source to claim he wrote an essay with that title. Also, to claim Frederick the Great would have defended a term called "enlightened despotism" is quite ludicrous, as "despotism" was a term of derision at the time in Western society. He would of course gladly have defended "absolutismus". -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 21:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi folks, there was a request for speedy deletion of the redirect on Enlightened despotism to make way for a move, because seeing the above discussion, it doesn't seem uncontroversial. Feel free to re-request if I'm mistaken. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 19:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
The subjects are exactly the same. The lead for Enlightened absolutism even lists "enlightened despotism" as a synonym in the lead. These two articles seem to have developed independently. Merge. — Mr. Guye ( talk) ( contribs) 02:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20170621052548/https://faculty.unlv.edu/gbrown/westernciv/wc201/wciv2c11/wciv2c11lsec5.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Thinker78 ( talk) 05:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The contents of the Enlightened despotism page were merged into Enlightened absolutism. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. (August 2018) |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Enlightened absolutism was copied or moved into Absolutism (European history) with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I removed the Spielvogel quote because I felt that it was lacking the elaboration that would have been necessary in order to make it relevant. If someone wants to write more about the questioning of enlightened despotism's usefulness, possibly from a more interesting point of view than that of an introductory level textbook, feel free to put it back. I would like to further rework this article when I have more time (class starts in an hour? ACK!), but for now this will have to do. -- User:anakolouthon
Should this page include mention of Cyrus II? -- Vaergoth 01:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know where this should go but someone's vandalized this, could someone revert it to whatever's good? I have no idea how to do this, I just read Wikipedia, but this article is messed up...
Just to let people know I intend to do a fairly serious re-write and expansion of this article. As a start I've removed references to such figures as Alexander the Great and Cyrus II being Enlightened Absolutists. The point being that Enlightened monarchs are influenced by the Enlightenment since these figures are pre-Enlightenment describing them as Enlightened seems to be nonsensical! Jezze 15:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
"In order to be considered "enlightened", they must allow religious toleration, freedom of speech and press, and the right to hold private property. They must foster the arts, sciences, and educations. Above all, they must not be arbitrary in their rules; they must obey the laws and enforce them fairly for all subjects." This paragraph in particular is dodgy, particularly the must, very few Enlightened absolutists fully embraced any of these principles. Eg. Catherine the Great set up different courts for different social orders and engaged in the continuing persecution of 'old believers' but is still considered by most historians to be an Enlightened Absolutist. Jezze 15:54, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.148.148 ( talk) 03:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Does it make sense to include someone as a "modern" enlightened absolutist? The term was coined to describe an evolution in the ideals of government following the Enlightenment, so I don't see why modern rulers would be described in these terms. Did they form their philosophy of rule after an extensive perusal of Enlightenment documents? Surely there is a better way of describing these rulers. — Vivacissamamente 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
How would one characterize monarchs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? They were practicing "enlightened" principles far before the monarchs mentioned below, and did not conduct the oppression manifested by some of the aforementioned monarchs. How does King Stanislaus Poniatowski fit in, in light of the May 3rd Constitution and its provisions? -~~
User:Lockesdonkey you clearly know more than a fair bit on the topic! The only criticism I would have of the edits you've made is the issue of constitution... I don't know what country you're from but written consitutions are a distinctly USA/French invention ie. the American Constitution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. In fact before the French Revolution, in Europe it appears, to me at least, that most constitutions of nations are based on what would now be called "common law" in working British Common Law, based on traditional rights and privileges as they existed. In the context both Absolutist and Enlightened Absolutist monarchs are exercising their rights within the existing, unwritten, Constitutions of the nations they rule... ( Jezze 05:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC))
Unless I am mistaken, Maria Theresa was not merely "of Austria," but Maria Theresa, Holy Roman Empress. As per the orders of the Pragmatic Sanction, the Hapsburgs decided to allow the crown to pass to Maria Theresa, daughter of the otherwise heirless Charles VI. In addition to ruling in her own right as empress, she also was co-ruler with her son Joseph II for 15 years (1765-1780). (Kagan, Donald. The Western Heritage, 8th ed. Upper Saddle River, N.J. : Prentice Hall, 2003. ISBN 0-13-182839-8) Xcountry99 23:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally I'm uneasy with his inclusion as an Enlightened Absolutist. While he does draw many ideas indirectly from the Enlightenment this seems more to do with post-Revolution culture in France, rather than the Enlightenment itself. I personally would not consider him an Enlightened absolutist but the first modern one. Any thoughts? Jezze 04:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
do you have a scholar to agree with you? or is there none that agree that he is an "enlighten absolutist"? Rds865 ( talk) 04:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Should Kemal Ataturk be added to the list? Just based on a little bit I've read about him. 12.179.169.122 ( talk) 13:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Like, hello people? Plato was the one of the first advocates of Enlightened despotism in his Republic. Gabr- el 06:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Plato idea were of many men like thoughts of today no ego- exsplained i can be a bad speller with no shame simple... example his projected moralitys of child like thoughts were clean and simple PURISM PROTOCAL Thoughts for another not oneself,projected as a simple passing smile and enlightened knollage,passed as a gift from simple engaged confersation and recieved as a gift not a tool.. and understand lightning stimulas,explain, thoughts of day are connected buetiful white light mindism a forgotten concept,natures wanted biths of the connected moralistic programe from the undeluded complex simple freed purism.. explained nature non-sinthetic, not man made intervention mans self amplified realism is truley of non-exsistance its only a act play of a clusster on intersepted thought thought role an agreement ..playwriter for socieity the modern haliquines man made charactors like cards in the wind rotating round the joker and the queen polatitions empriors and so on..
roman times so it be said so it be written was sureley so it be thought so it be wrote so it shall be played in realism like today the nowed.
heaven is the body of earth the mind is the universe your quesions are your answers dont make it real the undiluded complex.simple pure morality programe are the key and your the lock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.229.136 ( talk) 20:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
As my recent deletion of this section, which has been tagged since November 2007, was reverted, I would like to ask what the purpose of that section in this article is? The "characteristics" mentioned are only sourced with a news article about a specific case of one dictator that happens to be described as "Benevolent" by the journalist. It constitutes original research to make conclusions about this single case to "benevolent dictators" in general. The other source is Google Answers, where a person has listed his own homemade list of what he considers "benevolent dictators". I have not found a discussion concerning "Google Answers" in the archives of the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, but considering it was generally just a forum, I think it does not constitute a reliable source. As Wikipedia has the policy that unsourced, irrelevant and largely erronous information should be removed, I fail to see what keeps this section in this article (or in Wikipedia at all).-- Saddhiyama ( talk) 19:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
[1] [2] [3] [4] Now, all you have to do Saddihiyama is to read and click "next" on the bottom of each page. Maybe you would even want to click into some articles and weigh their value -- some are valuable and credible as sources worth citing, while others are not. Pretty neat, isn't it? How the same internet that connects to Wikipedia can be so readily used to access information with which to build or challenge information presently on Wikipedia? It's amazing! TeamZissou ( talk) 18:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Despite TeamZissous most recent (and very eloquent) defense of this section, I still have not seen any sources that backs up the claim that these two concepts are the same. It being holidays and all I am giving him or any other editor a week to provide the section with such sources. In the event that this will not happen I propose to move the benevolent dictatorship section to benevolent dictatorship (which currently is a redirect) and add a "See also" to each article in both articles. I will provide some extra sources for the enlightened absolutism section within a week as well, hopefully making the concept and its historiography a little clearer. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 18:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Section has been moved to benevolent dictatorship. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 14:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I found a mistake. my school webstie, as well as many other websites, say that joseph II said the quote "everything for the people, nothing by the people", but wikipedia says it is Johann Heinrich Gottlob Justi (1717-1771). that is wrong. i even asked my history teacher, and she says it is wrong too. Mschooler93 ( talk) 19:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I changed what is purported to be the title of an essay by Frederick the Great from "Benevolent despotism" to "Enlightened absolutism". Frederick wrote no work with "despotism" (or "despotisme" in French) in the title. See the bibliography of his works here. The source given is a collection of sources (The Portable Enlightenment Reader), and the title given in the index of that book is not necessarily the title of the original texts, as can be seen from numerous other examples in the index, but a title given by the editor Isaac Kramnick to a snippet of text taken from a letter or another work. As such it would be a misrepresentation of the source to claim he wrote an essay with that title. Also, to claim Frederick the Great would have defended a term called "enlightened despotism" is quite ludicrous, as "despotism" was a term of derision at the time in Western society. He would of course gladly have defended "absolutismus". -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 21:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi folks, there was a request for speedy deletion of the redirect on Enlightened despotism to make way for a move, because seeing the above discussion, it doesn't seem uncontroversial. Feel free to re-request if I'm mistaken. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 19:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
The subjects are exactly the same. The lead for Enlightened absolutism even lists "enlightened despotism" as a synonym in the lead. These two articles seem to have developed independently. Merge. — Mr. Guye ( talk) ( contribs) 02:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20170621052548/https://faculty.unlv.edu/gbrown/westernciv/wc201/wciv2c11/wciv2c11lsec5.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Thinker78 ( talk) 05:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)