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I've created a WikiProject that will hopefully help focus the efforts of all of us involved with Elvis-related articles. Obviously, those of us who work on these articles collectively know pretty much everything there is to know about Elvis. However, we must keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia and just because it's published in a biography does not mean it should be included here. We want to present our knowledge to the reader as clearly and focused as possible, leaving out the gossip, hearsay and such. That's what the biographies are for. So, for what is relevant in terms of an encyclopedia, we want the readers to know everything we know.
In order to get things going in the most productive manner possible, I have the following proposal (which is reflected in the project pages, but can be changed if consensus does not support it):
If consensus supports this proposal, then we can start immediately. If everyone respects this, there should be no need for page protection. However, if edit wars resume and the page is once again protected, this process will still be able to go on as stated above. The only difference will be that only I or another involved admin will be able to replace the current version with the rewrite.
Please discuss. Lara ❤ Love 21:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver.When he was 5 years old he rode llamas and ate tacos. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [1] [2]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins—his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [1] Vernon has been described as "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." [4] In 1938, he was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife, described as "voluble, lively, full of spunk", [5] lost the family home. [6] Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic." [7]
Presley was bullied at school; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [8]
At age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, the young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [9]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [10] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [11] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] Another resident, Johnny Burnette, recalled, "Wherever Elvis went he'd have his guitar slung across his back... [H]e'd go in to one of the cafes or bars... Then some folks would say: 'Let's hear you sing, boy.'" [13] Presley attended L. C. Humes High School, but fellow students apparently viewed the young singer's performing unfavorably: One recalled that he was "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music." [14]
Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. [15] He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [16] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite his unpopularity, he was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home". [17] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [18]
I propose shortening this to:
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [19] [20]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [2] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [21]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [22] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [23] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. [24] He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [25] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [26] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [27]
This version gets rid of quotes (which I think are generally unencyclopedic) and cuts the section down to facts, with a bit of interest thrown in. Rikstar 18:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I fully agree that the "mama's boy"quote is important —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.69.5.141 ( talk) 13:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [30] [31]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [3] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [33]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [34] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [35] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [36] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [37] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [38] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [39]
Rikstar 20:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I endorse this version. It still lacks the trashy, hillbilly quote, but I missed at first that it was a quote from children, so I think it's fine to leave it out. I like this version. Lara ❤ Love 21:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I really don't know if I have the stomach for going through this again, but I once provided a link to a presentation which stated that something like 2 out of every 3 children are bullied in school. (The other third are probably the bullies.) I don't see what's so noteworthy about Elvis being bullied. Most films about Elvis leave out any bullying scenes. Also, why pick on the South? By current standards, the entire country was conservative in the early/mid 50s. Yes, someone wrote it. A "reliable source", no doubt. The South was one of the first areas of the country where "black sounding" music was accepted by white people (there is a lot more complexity to this, but in general it's true), so how how could it have been more conservative than the rest of the country? As far as the trashy hillbilly music part, you "should" see that in reaction to some of the early public performances, and you could use a Barbara Pittman quote that can be heard at the Experience Music Project in Seattle that is specifically about this, though not specifically about Elvis.
Oh, and how do we know that any time we spend one this version of the article will stay around after protection is lifted?
Steve Pastor
23:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Er...Ummm...The sideburns and ducktail haircut came from truck drivers of that day and location. So, if you were used to being around truck drivers... Lansky Brothers were selling those flashy clothes to folks other than Elvis. Bullies will seize on ANY reason to torture a victim, and most people have been bullied in their lives. If we can't agree on what the quote was about, I say leave it out. Presley's early recorded song choices were based on what Sam Phillips thought would sell, and what Scotty, Bill, and Elvis knew how to play. Steve Pastor 20:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with the latest changes. Some important facts are missing:
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Interestingly, only critical information has been removed. This is not acceptable. Onefortyone 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the current version reads:
The following passage should be added:
I'd rather see a quote specific to Elvis and his mother rather than the descriptive quotes regarding his parents. I also like the quote that young Elvis "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you". However, the point is to trim the article so that all the information is presented in fewer words, so I disagree with your need to add information on top of information. We don't need example after example, quote after quote, to get this information across. Make the statement and support it with multiple references. Not all the references have to be quoted. Lara ❤ Love 20:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Ditto what Lara wrote about the non necessity of the information 141 wants included. Steve Pastor 20:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
(←) None of the former versions I read explained it. If you're up to it, draft it below. Otherwise, I'll try something when I get off work. Lara ❤ Love 21:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Also, are you going to be willing to agree to the removal of any supporting information from this article? Particularly in sections where a main article exists for such expansion of information? Lara ❤ Love 21:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Rikstar, I indeed want to help write a well-balanced article that is worthy of GA/FA status. Therefore, critical material should not be removed. For comparison, here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia page on rock singer Frank Black. It is listed among the featured articles. See [9]. There are several quotes in the “Youth and college” section of this article:
“ | I used to hang out with some misfits. [...] We were the 'we listen to odd-ball music' kids. I wasn't hanging out at all-ages shows or trying to get into clubs to see bands, and I was buying records at used records stores and borrowing them from the library. You just saw Emerson, Lake & Palmer records. So I didn't know [punk] music but I started to hear about it in high school. But it was probably a good thing that I didn't know it, that I instead listened to a lot of '60s records and this religious music. | ” |
Query: if there are so many quotes in this featured article on Frank Black, why should similar quotes be removed from the Elvis article, especially if they are well sourced and throw light on the many diverse aspects of Elvis's colorful life? Onefortyone ( talk) 00:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view states,
This means that well-sourced information should not be removed because some users didn’t like the information. Onefortyone ( talk) 01:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some commentaries by third-party users concerning the Elvis page:
These commentaries speak volumes. Onefortyone ( talk) 01:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Onefortyone, would you mind posting your desired section in the draft section below so we can work from there? Lara ❤ Love 21:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." [57] He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His wife, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), an alcoholic who was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [58] [59]
Presley was born in East Tupelo as the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [10] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6] Psychologists believe that the disappearance of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development" at an age when "a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen." [60]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [61]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [62] (In later years, Elvis still "loved guns, and regularly shot out television sets and light fixtures, sometimes nearly killing various acquaintances.") [63] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [64] At school, Presley was bullied; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [65] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as "a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music." [66]
In 1949, the family lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [67] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [68] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [69] According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [70] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [71]
This is my desired section. Onefortyone ( talk) 00:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
It's longer than the current version. I think it's actually the current version rearranged with an extra sentence or two. Lara ❤ Love 01:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need to know that Elvis and his mother "slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen", whether it is true or not? I hope this sort of thing won't be in any version of this article. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I grew up in public housing and was poor in the same general time as Elvis, not 30 miles from the Mason Dixon line. I did not sleep with my mother. Nevertheless, if it was so common, then why include it? The banal nature of some of this stuff, such as the tales of bullying, call for exclusion from the article. Regardless, of whether it was "common in the south", as you state, mainstream media generally respects the private aspects of something like who slept with whom. Of course, you have to buy into the idea that even public figures deserve some kind of privacy. I understand that in this day and age, these standards are either breaking down, or have already broken down. Given the need to exclude information to make the article an acceptable size, I think it should be left out. Steve Pastor ( talk) 23:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI "Bullying is a common experience for many children and adolescents. Surveys indicate that as many as half of all children are bullied at some time during their school years, and at least 10% are bullied on a regular basis." [11] Steve Pastor ( talk) 01:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
This is from the Archeive of this page, regarding the bullying information. "At one point we agreed to take it out, and it is back. See page 5 of the presentation at this url [10].In this study only 31% of students reported that they HADN'T been bullied. I identify with anyone who has been the victim of bullies, but can anyone make a good argument as to why this is so important that it shouldn't be deleted? Steve Pastor 00:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)" My question was never answered, so I ask it again. And hope for something more than more quotes from books. Steve Pastor ( talk) 01:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for providing the attribution, although I note that there is no direct quote from Vernon. Note that the words the author used were "would have" rather than "did have" or "was" when describing the house. This is an indication that the author was describing typical conditions rather than the specific conditions. A good writer choses words carefully. There is no question that Elvis was close to his mother, but the choice of words in draft 3 will lead to misinterpretation by most readers without too much added text. The word salacious comes to mind also. And, again, we aren't writing an Elvis biography here.
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [72] [73]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [13] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. [6] It has been claimed that the absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [74]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [75]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [76] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [77] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [78] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [79]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [80] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [81] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy. According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [82] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [83]
A revision, to reduce it's length and redundant wording, for what its worth. I hope editors will note it is not simply a revert and that content remains because it has been discussed above. It isn't my preferred version, but like any decent editor, I am trying to accommodate others. Rikstar ( talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence reads,
I think it is important to mention that Vernon was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." This passage should not be removed, as there is no further information about the character of Elvis's father in the article and it underscores why Elvis's mother had such a strong influence upon her son.
This passage may be shorter:
Or:
As far as the above discussion regarding his early life, there seems to me to be enough relevant, sourced information to create a main article on the matter. Thoughts? Lara _ Love 20:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I have now included the 4th draft of the first section with minor changes in the article. It is shorter than the previous version. I hope this is satisfactory to all. Onefortyone ( talk) 05:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Only passing by. I learned something from this content and had fun reading it, but the citation formatting is muddled (pls see below). Gwen Gale ( talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
On a quick skim-through here, I've noticed a number of original research violations. Specifically this paragraph which I have removed [14], is a synthesis of sources serving to advance a position (check out this WP:NOR, and this WP:SYN). From experience its quite easy to fall into this sort of trap when writing articles or essay's, so we'd best be on the lookout. Time permiting I will take a closer look at the article for more orignal research, any help would be appreciated. GiantSpitoon ( talk) 23:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Well-sourced is irrespective of the point, what you are doing is drawing these sources together to advance a position which you appeared to have reached yourself, and that is original research; in other words your creating a new narrative from a pile of sources you have hand-picked - a big no no. Also, the above quotation you have given is open to interpretation and does not explicitly state what you conclude from it (for example, that may just be ONE ocassion here Presley decided not to do whatever...). Your conclusion that Presley was not generally overtly sexually active from this and other sources bundled together is just that, YOUR CONCLUSION, and is thus original research. Oh, and I do not appreciate being accused of removing material based on the fact that I personally don't like it, please assume good faith in the future as I am with you. GiantSpitoon ( talk) 22:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
During the time that I have participated in this article, 141 has outlasted all other editors, in spite of having been previously taken to arbitration for the same behavior that has been exhibited since being allowed back into the article. Numberous editors have removed 141's contributions repeatedly. 141, however, persists. Steve Pastor ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Dennis Hopper once said in an interview that Elvis was with four girls at the same time. When Dennis asked Elvis if he had sex with all four at the same time he replied "yes". A female friend has said on an E!TV special that Elvis had as many as 7 girls at a time in what she described as a Elvis having different woman in different rooms waiting for him. They joined him after he was finished. Juliet Prowse has stated on camera that Elvis was not only a wonderful kisser but a wonderful lover. Anne Helm, his co-star in Follow That Dream has stated on record that her and Elvis had sex very frequently while filming that movie. Elvis' co-star Joan Blackman also stated that her and Elvis had sex frequently on the movie set. So why isn't this incorportated into that section? Is it because it totally wipes out Onefortyone's wish that Elvis was gay? I say that this section should be removed because it is not factual and is distorted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
In regards to my posting Dennis Hopper and Juliet Prowse quotes on Elvis' sex life, I can't. The Dennis Hopper quote came from a network special on his life which featured Bono spouting poetry about Elvis, and the Juliet Prowse quote came from clips of her speaking about Elvis in between commercials during a WTBS Elvis movie week special in the 90's. She also bragged about being the only women ever to be sleeping with Elvis and Sinatra at the same time. I'm still trying to locate those clips. As far as Joan Blackman is concerned, I remember reading about how they had to air brush Elvis' famous Blue Hawaii ukulele shot because of a "hard- on" he had from fooling around with Joan right before the shot. As soon as I look through my extensive Elvis book collection I'll post the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc ( talk • contribs) 06:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
If I thought it would make a difference to 141, I would go through the archeives and repeat the arguments that have been made by other editors as to why this material does not belong in this article. Since 141 has been unable or unwilling to understand, or accept any other viewpoints on this subject, that exercise would be pointless. Oh, how about this one, the article is too long and has to be trimmed. Steve Pastor ( talk) 20:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I've no objection to this, but the three comments under "The following comments have been left for this page" are all from assessments of the the FA candidate of over a year ago. The third comment is certainly no longer relevant, as there isn't a trivia section. My own comment - "However I am put off by the thought of the time it will take, and the inevitable interference that will come from those who have already made this article as bad as it is." - strikes me as still being of some relevance. Editing/discussion have gone quiet lately: I wonder why? I currently have no wish to continue trying to improve this article. It includes many bits that I and a consensus of others have tried to remove, but they remain because of the single-minded and inappropriate tenacity of one user. That user, Onefortyone, has asked me to return to discussing the Early years section, as if his other comments/contributions can be simply ignored. Dragging my name in to support his fight with GiantSpitoon earns no respect from me. This article is supposed to evolve into a better one over time; my views on what should or should not be included have also changed, in marked contrast to 141's general agenda. Soon, he'll be the only one editing the article. Fait accompli? Rikstar ( talk) 06:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. So we are all belly aching about 141. There seems to be no alternative to involving the Arbcom. I was about ready to do this when Lara stepped in, and I backed off. At least one other editor was with me on this at that time.
The form that has to be filled out is a bit daunting, probably by design, but the only way this is going to work is if we bite the bullet. Many of us have spent WAY too much unproductive time on this.
Please leave a simple message on this page. Please do not equivocate. I'm looking for a YES or NO. I'm guessing that this will be best received if we do it above board and out in the open. Steve Pastor ( talk) 16:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, and the same link contains other clear, but critical, statements about 141's editing tactics. Some things have not improved. Rikstar ( talk) 04:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm with you Steve Pastor, Maria, LaraLove and anyone else of similar opinion. Rikstar ( talk) 22:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote a comment on the 18th November 2007 re: Peter Gurlanick. I have now signed in. However I am still on my learners plates,so please bear with me. In saying that,you all seem very nice and understanding group of people. So here we go! 141, in part of you text earlier in the piece, you mention For reasons of balance, all this is welled sourced information may also be included in the article,if you would prefer that. On the other hand, is it really necessary to include all this stuff? I don't think so.
141, I think to be fair to the subject (Elvis Presley), the author involved in the text, the other editors and the readers themselves, yes, I think it is very important for the article to be balanced. -- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
User: Mfbinc mentions a few ladies stating they had a relationship with Elvis, to conteract the claims made by 141. 141 requests for sources to back these claims. He then mentions a book by Tom Weaver, I Was A Monster Movie Maker: Conversations with 22 SF and Horror Filmakers (2001),stating the book didn't mention Elvis and Anne Helm having an affair. Anne Helm, to my knowledge has not done many interviews about Elvis. She did however give an interview regarding her relationship with Elvis to authors Brown & Broeske, Down At The End OF Lonely Street P. 242-44,449. Due to the fact that there are three pages on her,I'll only include the "Humpy Bumpy" bits,okay. Anne Helme states it is to ignore his physical allure--the hair that was dark blond again,the deep olive tan. But stressed Helm,his appeal was more than physical. "He was so very,very sweet. I think a lot of women reached out to him because they felt he was lonely. I actually wrote some poetry about him when we were making the movie. It was that kind of romance." It was also very physical. "He really liked sex. A lot of nights I didn't go back to my own bungalow. I felt a little ashamed about it the next morning,because I knew that the people on the set realized what was going on." But Helm added,"I have to tell you,I had fun. And it was special. Two paragraphs along- "They sometimes played cards into the early-morning hours,when Presley would ask her to slip into a flouncy,yellow baby-doll nightie he had bought her. "I wasn't crazy about them,but he just loved them,Helm said,laughing. After they made love,he would give her pills----- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Rikstar,your comments and advise were both usefull and encouraging to me,thank you.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 01:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Onefortyone, when you say funny, do you mean funny ha ha or funny parculiar? What can I say, only that my genuine reasons for being here, is to try and help were I can and to make this article as fair and as accurate as humanly possible. On that note, I wish you and yours a very merry christmas and that we can endeavour to have a cival and productive discussion re: this article, in the new year.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 09:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Rikstar, I have been observing this article for six months now, and I would read your contributions, comments and your frustrations on trying to make this a good article, and sometimes you would talk about possibly leaving and I would say to myself please don't. You have shown to be articulate and balanced in your views, this is part of the reasons why I'm here. I have taken your advise about your suggestion for users to read 141's editing history for the past three years. Please excuse my tone, but I have just recently had endure this tripe for two hours. Is it against Wikipedia's policy for an editor to use selective referencing?, if that's the case, it's FULL OF IT. Do you have a copy of Peter Gurlanick's two volummes Last Train To Memphis & Careless Love? He is as I'm sure you would agree the definative biographer of Elvis Presley, even Onefortyone couldn't dispute that fact. If you do have these copies, have a look at the names listed, who he interviewed, but in 141's case, who he didn't. There is no mention of Dee Stanley, or gossip columnist William Dakota or Earl Greenwood for that matter. I wonder why?
To Steve Pastor add me to your list, please.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Last Train To Memphis by Peter Gurlanick. Bibliography - Presley,Dee,Billy Stanley,Rick Stanley, and David Stanley. Elvis We Love You Tender. Greenwood,Earl. The Boy Who Would Be King Index Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Presley - no mention Acknowledgements Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Presley - no mention
Careless Love by Peter Gurlanick. Bibliography- Presley,Dee,Billy Smith,Rick Stanley,and David Stanley. Elvis We Love You Tender. Greenwood,Earl. The Boy Who Would Be King Index Presley,Dee Stanley(stepmother),14,16-17,31,42,46,56-57,58,Graceland,35-36,64,77-78,80,89,93,117. Earl Greenwood - no mention Acknowledgements Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Stanley - no mention-- Jaye9 ( talk) 18:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
141, when I discussed Peter Gurlanick to Rikstar, I said he did not interview the likes of Gossip Columnist Bill Dakota, Earl Greenwood, or Dee Stanley, that is all that I stated, and that is a FACT. Dee Stanley was certainly in Elvis Presley life, she was married to his father. In all the pages cited in Careless Love, which by the way was first published in 1999, he never once discusses Dee Stanley's outrageous allegations, which she bought to light back well before "Careless Love" was ever published. Why is it that you seem to be so fixated on these types of topics, or even think they are worth mentioning. Obviously Peter Gurlanick did't seem to think so, otherwise he would have put it in.
Oh by the way 141, I am an Elvis Fan and a John Lennon fan, as well as many other artist, but don't worry I'm taking medication for it.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 19:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
User: Onefortyone 5 September 2007 (Talk),titled "Elvis and Marilyn Monroe",writes: The members of the Memphis Mafia certainly did not know every secret about Elvis. His early girlfriend Judy Spreckles says that the singer told her secrets "that I never told and will never tell." Robert L. Levinson's book,The Elvis and Marilyn Affair (1999) deals with a batch of love letters allegedley exchanged between Elvis and Marilyn Monroe during the filming of Love Me Tender and with a secret affair on the Fox lot in 1956 between Elvis and Marilyn. Though the story is fictitious,the author may have had some information about what was going on behind closed doors.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
What do we have here? Let's try to decipher this text,shall we. Point one: "The members of the Memphis Mafia certainly did not know every secret about Elvis". My response: True, that's a fair enough statement. Point two: "His girlfriend Judy Spreckles says that the singer told her secrets that I never told and will never tell." My response: What do those secrets intail?,do you know 141?,I certainly don't. Point three: "Robert L. Levinson's fiction book on The Elvis and Marilyn Affair (1999)". My response: Simply,pure fiction. Point four: "The Author may have had some information about what was going on behind closed doors". My response: We'll never know. 141,is this your idea of research? your personal opinion,thrown in with a bit of imagination. Yet, you recently criticize user: Steve Pastor, for using DVD'S (film footage)as his method of research. It is my contention,that not only books,but DVD'S and recordings are an important part of that research. I am certainly questioning this one example of what you call research. Yet this rumor,taken from your original source in the main article,"Byron Raphel wtih Alana Nash,"In Bed with Elvis" Playboy Novemver 2005 Vol 52,Iss. 11,p64-68,76,140. This is your only source by the way, makes we wonder how this could happen. 141,is this truly your idea of a compromise?-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
User:141 Writes NB: This is undoubtedly a source from Elvis's lifetime. By the way,the Guardian Article also proves(as many sources do)that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland. You should stick close to the facts to be found in published sources,Lockdale insted of making false accusations against other contributors. Talk:Elvis Presley/Archives:15. July 2006-December 2006?.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Vernon was often at Graceland,but since his marriage on July 3,1960,he lived in a house near Graceland with Dee and her three boys. Taken from: Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano,"Good Rockin'Tonight. p.56-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:33, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
"It was not until 1963,when Priscilla turned seveenteen,that her father allowed her to live in Memphis". (skipped four sentences) At first,she did stay at Vernon's to keep her promise to her parents. But Priscilla spent most of her time with Elvis,and before you knew it,she was permanently installed at Graceland. (skipped two sentences to finish paragraph. Taken from: Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano book 'Good Rockin'Tonight". p.96-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why you are citing this material from an old discussion of 2006 with my former opponent Lochdale, Jaye9. Are you interested to include some information on the problems Elvis had with his stepmother, Dee Presley, at Graceland in the Elvis article? This would make sense, as another user has also requested to include some material on Dee Presley in the article. See [53]. For the record, on July 3, 1960, Vernon Presley married Dee Stanley. They indeed lived at Graceland for a period of time before moving to a house nearby. So much for your false claim about Vernon above that "since his marriage on July 3,1960,he lived in a house near Graceland with Dee and her three boys." The Guardian (or, to be more precisely, its Sunday edition, the Observer) you have mentioned above clearly says that Elvis "brought Priscilla back to the States to live at Graceland, ostensibly under the chaperoning protection of his father Vernon and his new wife Dee." See [54]. Here are some further sources:
Interestingly, in July 2006, my former opponent Lochdale, who was later banned from Elvis Presley by arbcom decision, included the same false claim that Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley never lived with the star at Graceland in the Elvis article. See [55]. What a coincidence! Onefortyone ( talk) 00:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Please allow me to respond to your text above,but most importantly,pointing out to you what this was all about in the first place,which I will text in bold futher on. Point One: "I don't understand why you are citing this material from an old discussion of 2006 with my former opponent Lockdale,Jaye9"(part of text)signed:Onefortyone(talk)8 January 2008. Response: "If you have any evidence of selective referencing please post specific examples here". (part of text)signed:Rikstar(talk)30 December 2007.
Point two: user 141 writes: "By the way,the Guardian Article also proves(as many sources do)that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland". (part of text) Talk:Elvis Presley/Archives 15 July 2006-December 2006? Response: False and misleading. Point three: "Vernon was at Graceland,but since his marraige on July3,1960,he lived in a home near Graceland with Dee and there three boys". Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano,"Good Rockin'Tonight. p.56 Response: To vague,needed more clarification,so I continued with further referenceing from Joe Esposito's book being: "It was not until 1963,when Priscilla turned seveenteen,that her father allowed her to live in Memphis".(skipped four sentences) At first,she did stay at Vernon's to keep her promise to her parents. But Priscilla spent most of her time with Elvis,and before you knew it,she was permanently installed at Graceland".(skipped two sentences to finish paragraph) Taken from:Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano book Good Rockin'Tonight. p.96 signed;Jaye9(talk) 7 January 2008-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Point four: User:141 writes; "Interestingly,in July 2006,my former opponent Lockdale,who was latter banned from (Elvis Presley)by arbcom decision,included the same false claim that Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley never lived with the star at Graceland in the Elvis article. See[50] What a coincidence!" signed:Onefortyone(talk) 8 January 2008 Response: Firstly,allow me to apologize,for not been able to text(point four)in it's correct format with the wording (Elvis Presley) & See[50],I am still learning to use Wikipedia correctly,sorry! Getting back to my response: 141,I never made the false claim that Dee Stanley never lived with Elvis. Please read that bold text which you cited,that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland,of which I'm contesting.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
141,I agree Dee & Vernon Presley,soon followed by her three sons did live with Elvis,between 1960-1962(or thereabouts),I will cite it for you: "On January 19,1960,my seventh birthday,there was another call from Mom. By now we were sure we'd never get out of the orphanage. Mom kept telling us we'd all be together soon,but she'd be telling us that for months. (skipped paragraph). When we arrived,Graceland was all natural-coloured limestone.(next page/third paragraph) We lived at Graceland for the next two years in what had originally been a garage for Elvis's many cars and motorcycles. In anticipation of our arrival it had been redone into one huge room that housed Dee & Vernon and the three of us.(next 16 pages) In December of 1961,while Vernon was having our new home on Dolan Street built,we made a sudden move to a house on Hermitage Street.(skipped paragraph) Work on the house on Dolan Street moved quickly,and we could see that it was going to be a big house". taken from "Elvis My Brother",by Billy Stanley with George Erikson p.4,5 & 21-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Final Response: The text in bold is what this was about in the first place and to conteract what was stated in that bold text. Priscilla did not move into Graceland with Elvis unti 1963,as Joe Esposito stated and by that time Vernon & Dee Presley with her sons were not living at Graceland, but in Dolan Street. This is the second time 141,I have had to respond to you,to prove what I said and didn't say,I conclude.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
14:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
When changing the current sections to those we draft on the talk, be particularly careful not to removed base refs. Those being named refs with all the information (ie. <ref name=Bakers>Baker, Sammy (June 3, 1989). ''Thi...). I spent literally two weeks formatting almost 250 footnotes and references. Have some respect and consideration. Lara ❤ Love 15:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) has been described as a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [92] [93]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [56] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. [6] It has been claimed that the absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [94]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [95]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [96] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [97] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [98] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [99]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [100] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [101] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy. According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [102] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [103]
You guys might be amused by a surprisingly animated debate in an unlikely place, the talk page of the NPOV policy page. The bottom line is that the absence of the Elvis sightings concept from this page is incompatible with the WP:NPOV policy. Emmanuelm ( talk) 01:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
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It should be worth mentioning that the American Presleys, a very rare family name, stem from a Southern Palatinate vintner named Valentin Pressler who emigrated to the U.S. around 1700. Thus the anglicized version "Presley" of the German family name. Compare to the German Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.5.29.146 ( talk) 14:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Any one who saw the thing on elvis on cnn saw that they said elvis was related to oprah throw slavery and slave was pregnant by elvis's ancenstor which made them related and 2 there was something about no photo's were allowed at his funeral and somebody took a quick picture and the elvis in the coffin looked like the younger elvis so possible of what alot of ppl think faked death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.254.160.170 ( talk) 02:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering if anyone knows the charting history of which charts studio albums, live albums, compilations, soundtracks and singles were on, US Billboard, UK, Canada, Australia, and where this information can be founded. Thanks! Hpfan9374 ( talk) 08:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
There are plenty of books listing Presley's charting history in various countries, but try googling "Elvis chart statistics", several times, each time adding the name of desired country and the word "album" or "singles", and you will find at least some of the info you require. The stats for his film soundtracks might be on separate sites. Rikstar ( talk) 10:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
a girl in coe school is doeing a report on elvis
The Guinnness "British Hit Singles" now covers albums & singles. Try www.bibleofpop.cm as well. Krustybiker ( talk) 19:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
the girl did this. the one in coe♣ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.186.53.26 ( talk) 20:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The Article Vandalised today, January 29. Im trying to fix it. This Article needs to be protected. Gduwen
I only saw parts removed that had little to do with Elvis, text that OneFortyOne likes; sentances that wouldn't see the light of day in Encyclopaedia Britannica —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 21:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Fine, let's keep on trashing Elvis *sigh* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.186.17 ( talk) 11:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Not everyone who has been able to edit this article is interested in "trashing" Elvis. If you can, be more specific about your objections on these pages. That might lead to this article moving forward, something many of us want, in spite of continuing difficulties. You might also consider signing in, it looks better. Rikstar ( talk) 11:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Then let's talk about trashing Gladys. "Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic."[15]" This is in the Early Years section. Priscilla did not meet Elvis until he was in the military late in the 50s. I don't see what this quote has to do with the early years. Steve Pastor ( talk) 20:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Her drink/health problems is mentioned later and it does not need to be metioned in the Early Years section. So that's two of us with the same opinion. If more people agree than disagree with this change, then the edit should go ahead. The minority who disagree will have to accept it. This is the only way this article is going to move forward. I still prefer the "2nd draft" of Dec 6:
I agree too, and ip 130.208.186.17 is not user Lochdale and is not banned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 11:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I'm not joking - do you like twisting the truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 22:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [104] [105]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [64] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [106]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [107] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [108] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [109] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [110] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [111] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [112]
Rikstar ( talk) 16:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Arbcom did not rule that you were right. They rejected the case and, if I recall correctly, directed us to Enforcement because there was previously a case against you. I'm not reading all this over and over again. You made your point. Now we're waiting for others to join in. Lara ❤ Love 05:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) has been described as a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [113] [114]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [66] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. [6] The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [115]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [116]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [117] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [118] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [119] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [120]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [121] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [122] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You". [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [123] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail". [124]
Perhaps this may be the best version. However, I am not happy that there is nothing on Elvis's ancestry in the main text. Onefortyone ( talk) 20:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree. This is why we have articles branch off of this one. Rikstar is only slightly exaggerating about how many pages this article would be if we included everything. The article is also redundant. We don't have to mention the same thing in two different sections. We also don't need to back everything with multiple examples. But, we've already been over this ad nauseam. Which can be found in the sections above. As far as this latest suggestion, for example, it is not necessary to note that Gladys later becomes a drunk. This is the Early life section. Her alcoholism is mentioned later when it is relevant. Lara ❤ Love 16:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Believe it or not, this new version of the fourth draft is shorter than the second draft:
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17, 1933. [125] [126]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line. [3] [67] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. [6] The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [127]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [128]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [129] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [130] At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." [131] At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [132]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [133] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [134] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You". [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [135] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail". [136]
Any comments? Onefortyone ( talk) 20:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I concur, absolutely, unequivocally. Except for the omission of the Johnny Burnette quote, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of this article's progress. Rikstar ( talk) 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The only listed material that talks about Gladys drinking -specifically - when Elvis was young is the one published in 2006. That book also seems to be saying that the Presley's lost their house because of Gladys' drinking, and her missing work, citing details such as the alcohol could be smelled on her breath, she had blood shot eyes, etc. Who were her sources for these statements? Remember, she is writing about the 1940s. I think this reveals the author's predjudice "The author adds (p.23) that those who were like Gladys "owed their extra weight to drinking or avoiding field work. Alcohol was cheap; food might be hard to come by, but one could always find a drink." Was Gladys working or not? Elvis was ~ 3 years old at this time. Personally, I do not accept the penned in 2006 account about Gladys drinking, and it being a problem, at that time. If she lists who her sources were, I could change my opinion. "Those who were like Gladys", indeed. Is it verifiable at this point. Yeah, but I prefer "the highest standards", and hope you all start thinking that way.) Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is totally unproven- that he died from drugs. Please, let's change this wild assertion. There is absolutely no proof. None whatsoever.
Matthew Laffert ( talk) 10:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
No man, you got it wrong. Check out the Ilchi Lee article, and you will understand that your wild assertions re: Elvis's drug use are bogus. We are establishing outstanding criteria there that prove your sources aren't worth a penny. You need real, valid, quantifiable sources. Those that stand the test of scrutiny.
Matthew Laffert ( talk) 10:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
No man... I've just checked out the Ilchi Lee website. You seem to be arguing against the observations of medical doctors, medical examiners, etc. using beliefs based on Eastern mysticism. I don't see much in the way of compatibility between these. You mention "real, valid, quantifiable sources. Those that stand the test of scrutiny". That is exactly what we have in a plethora of documentation on Presley. It is extraordinary to claim all this is bogus: the onus is on you to provide meaningful, accessible and extraordinary evidence to support your somewhat sweeping and perplexing claims. Nothing on the websites you refer to contains this kind of evidence. It is extremely unlikely that your assertions will find credence amongst Presley article editors. Rikstar ( talk) 12:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not sure why the page keeps getting reverted back to an anti-Semtic and untrue claim that Elvis' Jewish lineage is only valid in Nazi Germany. It's a well known fact that Elvis' maternal Grandmother was Jewish. In the Jewish religion a person's religious lineage is passed down via the mother. See http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html or type into any search engine the terms "Elvis Presley" and "Jewish roots" and you'll see numerous articles and research stating with 100% surety that as far as Jewish law, theologians, The Wall Street Journal (in a 1998 article), and the Jewish faithful are concerned, Elvis is Jewish. However I think we can also agree that despite this he certainly wasn't a practicing Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SUNY Boy ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Some months ago we had a lot of trouble trying to list Presley's ancestry in the main article. It was changed continually, with people arguing about which bits of his lineage should be listed. As a compromise, mention of whether he was of Jewish, German, Venusian, or any other ancestry were left out, but links were kept and interested readers could click on those. Now the opening paragragh has explicit mention of his ancestry again, and it's causing problems again. Why not just have the links, as it was previously? Please, let us all be aware of LaraLove's wikiproject (top of page) and make contributions accordingly. This article has been a nightmare to edit, and new editors need to be aware this. Rikstar ( talk) 10:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Although I think we can all agree that until that time, the anti-Semitic reference to Nazis needs to be removed. SUNY Boy ( talk) 16:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this vandalism, or not? I'm not sure if it is or not, needs someone who knows more about the subject to cast an eye over it. Mjroots ( talk) 22:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It's all very sad, but I baulk at the possibility of engaging in any further attempts to improve this article unless we get more editors involved with an eye on producing a good, encyclopedic entry. The vandals have been rampant, necessitating the lock. I will only peruse these and my talk pages occasionally. As things stand, I'm outta here! Rikstar ( talk) 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a {{ blp}} near the top of this page? Isn't Elvis Presley dead? — Helland ( talk) 21:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have a picture of Fat Elvis? All the pictures are of him still thin. Klosterdev ( talk) 05:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not biased in saying this, but Elvis Jewish ancestry has never been properly substatiated, much of it is a result of massive speculation and therories. The wiki article dosnt even have a proper citation which substataiantes his jewish ancestry. I do not suggest that the aspect where is states he has jewish ancestry be removed, however I do suggest next to where it states he has jewish ancestry, there should me a phrase that reads "Topic of debate" in parenthisies "(---)" next to it.
Isnt there anytalk of People who Belive that Elvis Faked his death? Joe ferst ( talk) 17:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to Wikipedia, but isn't it biased to call drug abuse "drug misuse", as it is called throughout this article? Drug misuse infers there is a good way to use drugs, which is a statement of opinion. I haven't been able to change that myself as I'm not allowed to edit this page, but the phrase drug misuse drives me nuts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjk2398 ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
ELVIS WAS ALSO KNOWN AS THE KING. HE HAD NICE HAIR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.16.51 ( talk) 15:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
"To date, he is the only performer to have been inducted into four music halls of fame."
This is not true. Michael Jackson has been inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame (for recordings), the Songwriters Hall of Fame, The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (twice, as a solo artist and with the Jackson Five), and in the Vocal Group Hall of Fame (with the Jackson Five).
Celestius17 ( talk) 23:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll amend this. Rikstar ( talk) 13:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The following quote has been deleted by Rikstar:
Interesting to see another homoerotic, "orgasmic" reference being added to this article by 141 (April 8), an editor with a checkered history of making such observations that I and others do not feel are justified. Stick it in the article about Jailhouse Rock instead; the section here is about his acting career in general - not an analysis of his indivdual films. Rikstar ( talk) 13:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has the time or for that matter the patience,go to www.topix.net/forum/who/elvis-presley,go to topix,scroll down to Elvis was a Closet Homosexual,read the discussions made by "Elvis the Pelvis".Duisburg Germany. I don't know if it's just my imagination running away with me,but I beleive "Elvis the Pelvis" and editor:141 are one of the same,either in person or kindred spirit. 141 is this is really you,I'm intrigued,you have always come across as a very skilled writer,who can run rings around me in that department,but unlike me you're not an elvis fan,why would you be bothered going on a chat room with a few elvis fans,who only seem to discuss their love and interest for the man,their not hurting anybody. Wikipedia is one thing,but an elvis chat room,oh come on. However,if this is not you,than I will appologise, in that case "Elvis the Pelvis is definately a copy cat,who seems to have cut and pasted a large portion of you edits here on Wikipedia,also in one of his posts he stated in part "I'm interested in the problems of gay mega stars from a psychological point",arn't you interested in gender study books and reading biographies,not only that,he is a fellow countryman to boot,a match made in heaven. You should get in touch with him to join you in the elvis wikipedia article and you can bounce off each other on every aspect of elvis's life in psychoanalysing bliss for the both of you,but add nausea for the rest of us. Oh just quickly 141,if you do respond to the above,I will be going away for a week on work related business,I won't be back untill the weekend.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 10:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Sight and Sound wrote that in his movies "Elvis Presley, aggressively bisexual in appeal, knowingly erotic, [was] acting like a crucified houri and singing with a kind of machine-made surrealism."
I propose removing the above quote. It - if it needs to be included - should be in a specialized article rather than a generalized section about his films in this biography. Rikstar ( talk) 20:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Your 'gender study' observations have always been interesting regarding Presley. I particularly liked your talk page contribution of 08/27/07, quoting Jack Marx:
"Elvis was gay. He left messages all through his songs, outing himself to anyone who could hear, though the truth was hidden from the public in the lyrics that were published on his records and in fan magazines. Here's a few to hum in your head...
You know I can be found, sitting all alone If you can't call me, Ralph, at least please telephone... - Don't be Cruel
Love me tender, love me true, All my dreams for Phil... - Love Me Tender
When caught in a chap, I can't walk out... - Suspicious Minds
I'm into Richard, out in the hall... - Stuck On You
Sure would be delighted with you pumping me, C'mon into the jailhouse, Rock, with me [emphasis added]... - Jailhouse Rock"... etc.
For some reason you haven't used the latter Jailhouse Rock lyric to bolster your views. Looks like ideal ammunition for your mission to alert the world about Presley's homoerotic/bisexual appeal. Could it be - and I'm guessing wildly here - that the quote YOU gave credence to by using it is in fact just a bunch of humorous crap that should never have been seriously quoted in the first place? Your credibility is permanently damaged by this in my eyes; you simply come across as someone with a rather sad and pitiful sexual agenda that ties up time - and frightens off worthy editors. Rikstar ( talk) 05:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I seem to remember a group of people writing that the process seems to be working. Oh, and I see that the "article is too long" tag is still there. And, what ever happened to that bid for featured article status? Never mind, I already know the answer. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
"Some wondered how the Motion Picture Production Code had been by-passed to allow a teenage idol to swear on the screen - I don't know what the hell you're talking about, or let a scene stay in that showed Elvis and Judy lying across a bed, fully clothed it's true, but neither one with the obligatory foot on the floor at the same time. Time magazine's critic (an inveterate Elvis - hater) concludes his attack with, 'For movie goers who may not care for the personalty, Presley himself offers in the film a word of consolation. Don't worry, he says, I'll grow on you. If he does, it will be quite a depressing job to scrape him off. In the same issue, Time writes despairingly about the whooping success of Jailhouse Rock's title song, whose moviebred lyrics of Jailhouse Rock suggest a powerful argument for penal reform...' Well, they had a point. Leiber and Stoller lyrics, such as:
'Number forty-seven said to number three, You're the cutest jailbird I ever did see. I sure would be delighted with your company, Come on and do the Jailhouse Rock with me'.
Certainly suggest what happens sexually to men cooped up together for long periods of time without women." (Source taken from Elvis and Gladys, by Elaine Dundy p.307 & 308). I remember reading and article of an interview with the writers of Jailhouse Rock, Leiber and Stroller, I carn't remember word for word, but to the effect that when they wrote the song for the movie, they hadn't yet met the star & like many people at the time, did't think much of him and wrote the lyrics as a bit of a joke. Keeping this in mind and Elaine Dundy's penchant for analysis of her subjects life and career, of the 21 pages about the movie Jailhouse Rock, she gave that topic only a few lines. I believe many view the lyrics and its contribution to the film as a whole to be a lighthearted reference to forced enviromental improvisation.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the TCB band, symbol, etc. merits having its own Wikipedia entry. However, I lack the knowledge to write it. I mention it here in hopes that someone can be spurred to do this. Migp ( talk) 17:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
This story has just broken in the UK. It hasn't been verified. There's a good deal of skepticism about it. Rikstar ( talk) 00:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Marty Lacker comments on Elvis toured London with Tommy Steele:
"Tommy Steele's claim that Elvis contacted him and spent a day in London with him is total bullshit.
"It seems Steele is just another person who has come out of the woodwork since Elvis died that has made false claims about themselves and Elvis. They think because he's gone they can get away with it, but they forget that we, the origianl guys who were close to him for 20 years and more, are still here. At least one of us and most times more, were with him just about everyday for all that time. Many days 24/7. We know what he did and who he did it with.
"Tommy Steele was never with Elvis in London because Elvis was never in London. The only time Elvis was in any part of Great Britain is when his army plane made a brief landing to refuel in Prestwick, Scotland on his way home from the army in Germany. Who Steele did meet is Lamar Fike, who says that he went to London back then while he was in Germany with Elvis. He went with a couple of guys and met Steele as part of a group. He spent a few hours with him and the others but he never went to Parliament as Steele claims or any other sightseeing tour with him."
Hope this sets the record straight for people. -- Jaye9 ( talk) 08:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Source: Elvis Informatin Network-- Jaye9 ( talk) 10:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Beautiful People: "Once it was established that a man could be a sex object, it was time to show he could be pretty, too. Androgyny in men would become a fact of life with the rise of rock and roll in the 50s. It was one thing for a flaming queen like Little Richard to cross the line segregating the genders, but even the overtly heterosexual Elvis Presley did some trespassing by wearing mascara and dressing in gold lame, the latter recommendation of Liberace, the entertainment world's most flamboyant fairy.
Following the example of Elvis and the rock and roll rebels he inspired, straight men broke free from the rigid dress code of earlier generations and started strutting their stuff without shame. Now, as men keep in shape with regular visits to health clubs (which their stogie smoking ancestors would have called a gym), the appreciation of male beauty is out of the closet as the gay men do much of the appreciating". Source: Date Info - The webzine of Date.com by Brian W. Fairbanks.
Brian W. Fairbanks has written alot of articles on Elvis as well as John Lennon, Bob Dylan etc. I think he is a bit of an Elvis Fan, don't hold that against him 141, the man just shows good taste. I personally think it's about the music, first and fullmost, the rest just follows,we are all human.
To User:Steve Pastor: amongst his many works, he has also written an article on The Ed Sullivan Show. Go to Brian W. Fairbanks -Writer on the web, if you care to have a look.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
There were a couple of fans of Elvis Presley. Two boys named Andrew Scheib and Kushal Dhangauna introduced a boy named Rishi Haran to Elvis Presley. Kushal Dhangauna introduced Rishi one Elvis song Hound Dog. Andrew Scheib introduced Rishi another song Blue Suede Shoes. Then, Rishi saw music videos of Elvis on Youtube and soon, he loved Elvis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.69.139 ( talk) 20:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
1)
HarveyCarter (
talk ·
contribs) and all of his sockpuppets are EXPRESSLY banned for life.
2) Be on the look out for any edits from these IP addresses:
Jerry Hopkins' updated biog is essential reading as it was the first, and has been updated. It is unfortunate that LaraLove's wikiproject for this and other sections has not been followed. The content of Hopkins' biog is as valid as anyone else's and contains highly relevant information (positive and negative I might add). More to follow? Rikstar ( talk) 18:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
So Samuel Roy has an opinion. So does Jerry Hopkins. His books on Elvis have been combined and "thoroughly revised and updated", according to Jann Wenner, Rolling Stone founder. Rikstar ( talk) 10:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Editorial Reviews
Elvis: The Biography by Jerry Hopkins(Author) Paperback - Sep 9,2007
"Jerry Hopkins long ago established the ground rules for serious biographical consideration of Elvis Presley. With a rare combination of seat-of-the-pants reporting and thoughtful portraiture,he creates a richly nuanced picture of a world in flux,both for Elvis himself and for the broad range of humanity that was - and continues to be - so indelibly affected by his music." - Peter Guralnick,author of Last Train To Memphis and Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley -- Jaye9 ( talk) 06:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said above, I see no problems quoting from Jerry Hopkins's books. Here are some quotes from the author's book, Elvis: the final years:
However, the quality of the author's writing is not always as good as here. Hopkins's more recent book, Elvis in Hawaii (2002), a publication of less than 100 pages, is written for Elvis fans, filled with photographs and memorabilia collected from some fans and chronicling Elvis's time in Hawaii and his three Hawaiian movies. There can be no doubt that Elvis helped create Hawaii's modern image as a tourist destination, but his three movies in Hawaii - Blue Hawaii, Girls! Girls! Girls! and Paradise Hawaiian Style - are pretty bad. "When I did my first Elvis book, I interviewed 200 people and took hundreds of pages of notes and had to travel to different cities just to find out basic information," says Hopkins. "With the Internet, if I need to know the cast list and a synopsis of an Elvis movie, the information is available in seconds. I don't waste my time and can concentrate on actually writing." And he wrote the book in a few weeks. Onefortyone ( talk) 16:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
There is an important interview with Linda Thompson that is from CNN, when she was on Larry King's show. The transcript is here
http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/interview_lindathompson.shtml
The reason I am bringing this up is because I actually believed the Wiki article that he just wasn't very sexual with women, etc. Linda Thompson does say she did not sleep with him for a few months into the relationship, but then it did turn sexual, and she recalls their "romantic first night". She also states that he was faithful for about a year in their relationship and she said it was "some kind of record" (not exact quote, but she implied that he was not a monogamous type of person. Emotionally monogamous yes, but not physically monogamous.). She said that after that he was cheating on her with a lot of other women, ie having sex with them. She also states the reason why they broke up in the interview, and how, when they were breaking up, Elvis had another female in the room below their room, waiting for him (ostensibly to have sex with him).
I just want to note that I am personally not an Elvis fanatic, I am merely pointing this out, and I hope some other editor on this page uses this information. I realize there are bios of Elvis out there, but this is straight from Linda Thompson. Ruth E ( talk) 03:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: Here's the original CNN transcript http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/16/lkl.00.html Ruth E ( talk) 04:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ruth E,thankyou so much for your recent comments,I am aware of this particular interview. I believe Linda Thompson along with her brother Sam Thompson are going to be writting a book about Elvis in the very near future. Linda Thompson is very well liked with the majority of fans and I have only heard favourable comments by many of Elvis's associates.
I have been editing on the Elvis talk page for only 3 months or so,but I really like the concept of Wikipedia,that it's a public domain and everyone can express their opinion,which at times can get heated,but that makes it all the more interesting and yes at times frustrating,but you can learn from it.
Of all the Elvis books out there and there are many,along with their contradictions,I could use that information and make Elvis look like a choir boy,ready for saint hood or a monster,if I so choosed,like most of us I believe he was neither,I go with somewhere in the middle. So my advise is don't believe everything you read,search around other sites as well and make up your own mind. I would like to site something I read from Joe Esposito that made sense to me and pertains to the subject your talking about. All the best to you.
"In certain ways,Elvis was a very unsophisticated man. He loved women,but he was not the super-sauve stud everyone thought he was. No one could live up to that image. Elvis slept with a lot of women,especially in the early days,but he couldn't have slept with every girl he dated." Source: Joe Esposito Good Rockin'Tonight p.182-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
As you can see above User:141's test is quite large,so the only way I can clearly dicipher it,it to write it in sections,along with my responding comments.
141 writes:Bold text As a sex symbol,Elvis met serveral girls for publicity reasons. It is unclear whether he actually had sex with most of the womem he dated. Judy Spreckles and June Juanico say that they had no sexual relationship with Presley. Juanico "recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in front of his band of hangers on,who even then were beginning to accompany him everywhere. He grabbed her arm,took her into the bathroom and declared."Look" your so right,I am really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes,then swaggerd out,his image intact.
Responding Comments: Early in Elvis's career,Elvis's manager Colonel Tom Parker would have wanted Elvis to be seen and photographed with many different women and incoureged Elvis to do so,this was all to make him look available to his predommantly female audience,so they would buy his records. In the early days Colonel Parker did not want Elvis to get married or appear to have a serious girlfriend,such as the case with June Juanico. In her book ,June Juanico comments about her dislike for Colonel Parker for this reason. As for 141 comments about Judy Spreckles and June Juanico,Judy Spreckles was a friend,as for June Juanico relationship with Elvis goes,here's a bit of what she had to say about that.
"Though he still occasionally saw Dixie Locke and had a new sophisticated Memphis girlfriend named Barbara Hearn,Presley embarked on a madcap summer romance with June,of which Gladys approved. But,in a whisper,she warned her son,"You just better not let Colonel Parker know how serious you are about June. You know how he feels,especially about marriage."
"The advice was par of Glady's tragic attempt to regain control of the boy. Gladys was determined to get him married and settled near her. The Colonel was equally determined that Elvis maintain his image of a rock'n'roller who was "available" to the legions of girls filling the concert stands. The Colonel wouldn't even sanction a steady girlfriend.
"Celestrial bodies weren't all Elvis was interested in. He desperately wanted to have sex with June,who adamantly refused."
As Juanico noted five decades later,"It was another time,another sensibility. There were alot of virgins running around including me. She had her suspicions about Elvis,as well. "I had the feeling he really hadn't been around all that much,because he was so gentle". They were both apprehensive. The big fear then,reminded June,was pregnacy and if you got pregnant you got married.
She did allow him to kiss her passionately. And they engaged in serious and creative foreplay. Source: "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat H.Broeske. P.84 & 85-- Jaye9 ( talk) 03:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
2nd Section
User 141 writes: Byron Rahphael and Alana Nash have stated the star "would never put himself inside on of these girls" and that the so-called dangerous rock-and-roll idol was anything but a despotic ruler in the bedroom..." Responding Comments:
It is to my understanding that Alana Nash is a writer for Penthouse Magazine and was assigned to interview and write Byron Raphel's intriguing little story,that is all,that's what a writer does. A story is only as reliable as it's source.
Alana Nash did however write a very highly acclaimed and respected book "Elvis and the Memphis Mafia" with Billy Smith,Marty Lacker and Lamar Fike,a much more reliable source indeed. It is to be noted Marty Lacker and Lamar Fike have critized Byron Raphael in interviews,for his exaggerated claims eg: the Marilyn Monroe Affair etc. The funniest won I heard was Byron Raphel claiming that Elvis was well endowed in the private area,it's even more funnier that Elvis nicknamed it Little Elvis, go figure. This source is just to silly for words. Byron Raphael was not even mentioned in the updated "Elvis and the Memphis Mafia" book,showing him total contempt and rightfully so.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Third Section
User:141 writes: During his military service,he had "discovered prostitutes and picked up the intense fear of transmitted deseases which led to claims that he had a morbid fear of sexual penetration. "See Tracey Mcveigh, "Elvis Special: Love Me Tender" The Observer,Sunday August 11,2002
My Response:
I just read "Elvis Special:Love Me Tender" by Tracey McVeigh The Observer,Sunday August 11,2002 Not a bad article in it's entirety,the lady appears to have used quite alot of her information from the book "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat.H Broeske. However she did make a comment that got me wondering. Talking about things in it's entirety,141 writes in the first section I have written from this very article "Jaunica recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in the front of his band of hangers on,who even then where beginning to occampany him everywhere. He grabbed her arm,took her into the bathroom and declared "Look" your so right,I'm really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes,then swaggered out,his image intact."
Here's how the paragraph reads from the "Elvis Special: Love Me Tender" article.
'Elvis was a very sensitive person,very tender,but on the outside he was very macho,' she says. An outspoken and fiesty teenager,June recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in front of his band of hangers on,who even then were beginning to accompany him everywhere. He grabbed her,took her into the bathroom and declared. "Look you are so right,I am really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes then swaggered out,his image intact.
My question to you 141,you're not one for short edits,why did you leave the first sentences out,don't you like sentences that use the word macho in them, to describe Elvis? After all these two sentences were the first part of the paragraph.
Getting back to what 141 mentions about prostitutes,transmitted deseases and claims about fear of sexual penetration,here are some sources that discuss these subjects.
"According to deejay Bill Randle,some of the very well developed young women who congregated backstage at Elvis's shows latter cuddled with him inside his parked car. "There was alot of activity in that car," recalled Randle,adding,"Elvis was a highly sexed young guy - a randy rooster."
"In the beginning he was sexually naive. Sam Phillips likes to tell the time a flusted twenty-one-year-old Elvis showed up at his home to anxiously confess,"Mr Phillips,ahh,Mr Phillips,I got somethin I'm just worried to death about." With that Elvis dropped his pants to reveal a festering sore just above his pubic hair. "He thought he had syphilis," said Phillips,who went on to chagnose Elvis's "risen" as a "carbumcle boil"(later,lanced by a physician). Source: "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat H. Broeske p.54
The above comment shows Elvis was concerned about deseases way back then. I was going to site more information,don't get me wrong I am pretty open minded,but I'm finding this all just a little perverse. I'll move on to the next section. I'm just trying to makeing a point to all this.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
141 thankyou for your responding comments and excuse me if I don't address them right now,I'm not ignoring you,I'm just going to finish with what I started out to do.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Fourth section
User: 141 writes: Even the Memphis Mafia members didn't exactly know what was really going on in Elvis's bedroom. In most cases,when the girls were waiting for the star were bought up to the singers suite,Peter Guralnick writes "Elvis would go in the other room,he'd go in the bedroom or somewhere,and then when they came back with the girls,the girls would sit there for maybe ten or fifteen minutes and finally one of the cousins would go in the bedroom and come out himself and another ten minutes would go by and then would come Elvis. And there would be silence,and then the cousins would say,'Oh,Mary Jane,this is Elvis,and the girls would be totally gone." Does this sound as if he was very interested in these girls? I don't think so.
My Response
141,you write "Even the Memphis Mafia Members didn't exactly know what was really going on in Elvis's bedroom. In most cases,when the girls who where waiting for the star were brought up to the singers suite,"
How would they know what was going on in Elvis's bedroom,they weren't in the bedroom with him,
then you say,"In most cases,when the girls who where waiting for the star were bought up to the singers suite," You know this yourself do you? As I've said before you not won for short edits, then why did you leave out the first two sentences out of that paragraph you quoted from Peter Guralnick's book? Reading that paragraph you used from Gurlanick's book and your final personal view of "Does this sound as if he was very interested in these girls? I don't think so." I don't quite see your point.
Here are the first two sentence you choose to leave out of that paragraph from Peter Gurlanick's book,"He wasn't really serious about anyone for the time being,though. He was engaging the single life,and when he got bored he just had to tell the guys to hunt up some girls in the Lobby of the hotel. He would have them bought up to the suite,offered one observer"
Just two paragraphs before Peter Gurlanick writes: "In the evenings they would go to the movies sometimes,the whole gang of them,it was,according to Vince Edwards,like "The Clan of the Beverley Wilshire full of cousins and him. "When we got to the theater,'said Russ Tamblyn. We all got out and bought our tickets and formed a line. Now by this time a crowd has formed,you know,they'd see all these strange-looking characters get out of the cars and wonder,who the hell is this,so if there wasn't a problem before,there is now. Anyway,there would be two lines right up to the ticket taker,and Elvis would be the last one,or if he had a girlfriend,the girlfriend would come out with him,and Elvis would go right between the two lines,and everybody would be blown away they'd just move back. I always thought Elvis loved the entourage,and he loved playing the part-he seemed to have an instinct for entrances."
Reading this paragraph and the one you quoted,as it flows in,I believe that the author was pointing out that Elvis liked making entrances,whether he was out in public or in his private life,that's all. But then we all see things differently I guess.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 06:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Fifth Section
Evertime I write the word section,Im typing in Sextion by mistake,do you think it may be some sort of fruedien slip perhaps 141,just kidding,I think I just getting a little tied. I am trying to be as honest & open with you as I can and I'm reading your responses and you appear to be twisting everthing I say around,maybe it's communicating on the internet that's the problem,I'm not use to it,I as a rule talk to people face to face. People can interperat things differantly sometimes, I can appreciate that,but if your playing some sort of little game here,please don't do it with me,I just want to try and help where I can to make this a good article okay.
User: 141 writes: Gurlanick further says "For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even more sophistacted boys they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested. What he liked to do was lie in bed and watch television and eat and talk all night - the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex" and it seems as if he only occassionally had intercourse.
My Response
141,remember when I first came on the Elvis Talk Page and you sited this very paragraph from Peter Gurlanick and I said In response to the recent comments made by User:141 dated 13th December 2007. Taken from Peter Gurlanick Last Train To Memphis p.415. There are just a few more sentences that follow after what 141 quoted in the same paragraph. It reads: "-the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex---and in the early morning hours they would make love. "He had an innocience at the time," said one of them. "Im sure it didn't last."
And I said does this not pertain to the text also.
In your response to what I said,you never explained why you did that,you just quoted the next paragraph from Peter Gurlanick's book etc. By you leaving those few sentences out,to me it was like you slammed on the brakes,it looked very strange. This time however you did go a little further and say "the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex" then you put the brakes on again and you didn't write "---and then in the early hours they would make love. "He had an innocience at the time," said one of them "Im sure it didn't last.
But instead you finish with "and it seems as if he only occassionly had intercourse." I'm sorry 141 leave these statements out and you finish with what you said,it comes across to me a selective referencing,all part of you agenda pushing plan or just plain sniggering,maybe I wrong,but then I only you know that answer.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Just recently have woke up this morning to find your recent response,I'm absolutely speechless,the only thing I can think of to say to you is thankyou for sharing that with me.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
21:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
141,I have just had a chance to calm down a bit,just a bit since this morning. Let me explain something to you if I may,I chose to dissect your recent edits, section by section,because I didn't agree with what you said and wanted to explain why,that is what I have chosen to do and something that is important to me. However,I have spent 18 hrs research on this so far, because if I have a problem with what you say,I have to back it up and it hasto be thorough and accurate as It can be. I thought I would have this finished by now. However reality sets in and I have to go to work and do 14hr a days for the next three weeks.
You said in your last response to me,that I have accused you of twisting things around,selective referencing etc. Yes I did, because that is how I genuinely see it. You also mentioned that my doing so,was showing bad faith,as you put it not the Wikipedia way. May I remind you that you also have called me an Elvis fan,which I am,but as I see it,spoken by you in a way that appears to be used in the most derogatory of terms. I've been called a sock puppet,which I am most definetely not. That my comments of past have been amusing and funny,which I find are both belittling and discouraging. But that's okay then isn't it,one rule for you and another rule for everybody else,is that how it's going to be. This is why I think that this article is stagnet and will continue to be fo god knows how long.
Here's what I'm going to do,to show good faith. Two things,firstly I've decided to have three weeks timeout from what I'm doing on the Elvis Talk Page, because of work commitments and also if I don't do this ,I may very well blow my fuse with you and I don't want to do that. Secondly,I will however cite a paragraph that you wrote today,that I have a problem with,there are more but I am a little pressed for time at this point. Isn't this partly what the talk page is for? to sort out problems with the article. With that I will endeavour to continue these discussions with you in three weeks,see if we can work it out,for the better of this article and for it's readers. Keeping in mind 141, that what ever I say is not against you personally,I would like you to believe that,as I wouldn't be spending all these hours citing my sources. I would just say something like your wrong onefortyone and that your an Elvis hater,well that would be productive,not. See you in three weeks.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Jaye9, it is unfortunate, but wholly predictable, that you would be accused of being a sockpuppet and that you would be referred to disparagingly as an "Elvis Fan" (we've all been there). 141 has his own agenda. Do not take his comments to heart. Rikstar ( talk) 20:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
See Onefortyone(talk)18 May 2008
First Section
User: 141 writes: This is followed by the most important part of the text. ("For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested") This is a clear statement. Other sources,among these eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to lie in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important then having sex with these girls,although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love." Query: how should the author or the members of the Memphis Mafia know whether they actually made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired after talking or reading the Bible or phitoshical books all night long."
My Response
141 writes: "This is followed by the most important part of the text. ("For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys,they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested") This is a clear statement."
I think what the author was trying to point out,of the girls he met,if they were experienced he didn't go off with them. 141,let's look at the time period the author is talking about,April - September 1957. Elvis was 22 years old,a very young 22 year old,not very experienced at that time with life in general,also shy. That's why I think he was with girls who were not worldly. He also wasn't very well educated and I have heard Elvis say in an interview that he didn't like interlectuals and didn't hang around with these sort of people,for the same reason. They intimidated him.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Secound Section
User: 141 writes: "Other sources,among them eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to be in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important than having sex with these girls,although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" Query: how should the author or the Memphis Mafia know whether they actually made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must of have been tired early in the morning after talking and reading the Bible or phitophical books all night long."
My Response
141 you write that "Other souces,among them eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to be in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important then having sex with these girls,"
Other souces and several girls, what there were two,three,four a hundred sources and girls all said the said the same thing as apposed to the other sources saying the complete opposite. Lets just cite them all and tally them up and see what we get. As I said before in his book Joe Esposito puts it in it's rightfull purspective when he says "In certain ways Elvis was not a very unsophisticated man. He love women,but he was not the super-sauve stud everyone thought he was. No one could live up to that image. Elvis slept with alot of women,especially in the early days,but he couldn't have slept with every girl he dated." source: Joe Esposito "Good Rockin Tonight" p.182
Actually Elvis acknowledges this as well,in his own way,which I'll cite from Joe Esposito's book. "Elvis," I begun tentatively,"I have a personal question for you,but you don't have to answer if you don't want to."
"Shoot"
"Well,you've been with so many girls. Have you ever gotten one pregnant?"
He smiled. "First of all,Joe." he said "if I'd slept with every woman the movie magazines say I have,I would have been dead a long time ago. Before I went into the Army,there were three differemt girls who claimed I made them pregnant. A couple of them claimed they'd had abortions. But I didn't get them pregnant.
"How do you know for sure?"
"Whenever I'm making love,I make sure I don't come in them I pull out in plenty of time." p.48
Then you continue with "although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" Query: how would the author or the member of the Memphis Mafia know wherther they made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking or reading the Bible or philosphical books all night long."
My Response
In regard to you saying how would the author or the Memphis Mafia know this to be the case. Let's put it this way,I read an interview with Peter Gurlanick on the internet,(sorry ,but I'm pressed for time,I will cite it for you in three weeks for sure)to my memory he mainly talked about Elvis's music, but he did talk about Albert Goldman,not to any large degree, but part of what he spoke about was what Goldman had written in his book "Elvis" Goldman had said that the Memphis Mafia would go to down down Los Angelos and buy the lattest f**K books for Elvis and Elvis would take one these books to bed and masturbate every night and said that Elvis was a cronic masturbater and Peter Gurlanic had said how would he know,he wasn't in the bedroom with Elvis. So you see,looking at what he said and being the type of biograhpher Peter Gurlanick is known for, I seriously doubt he would have said that Elvis had made love with these girls in the early hours of the morning without a having a reliable source or sources.
141,then finishes off with "Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking or reading the Bible or philophical books all night long."
So here you are questioning Peter Gurlanick's integrity as a writter and the Memphis Mafia who knew him(men talk).
You don't look at that, instead you give you own interpretation of things, by saying "Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking and reading the Bible or philophical books books all night long." After reading that I say to myself,who do I believe Peter Gurlanick & the Memphis Mafia or 141 intriging little insight. Have a guess?-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Third Section
User:141 writes: "Only occassionly this might be the case, as Anne Helme stated that they had sex,relating that they "played cards into the early morning hours,when Presley would ask her to slip into a flauncy,yellow baby-doll nighty he had bought her" Perhaps this was the souce Gurlanick had in mind."
141 then says "Therefore,it is not necessary to cite the extra paragraphs from Gurlanicks book in the Wiklpedia article,as the author claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" (a statement presumably based on a simple source such as Anne Helm)is contradicted by several sources."
My Response
Are you saying 141 that Anne Helme may have been Peter Gurlanick's source or based on what she said,to give cause for Peter Gurlanick to put that in?
As I've said before Anne Helme to my knowledge has not down many interviews. The only time I've read any interviews with her and what she has said about her relationship with Elvis,was in the book "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown & Pat H. Broeske. Peter Gurlanick was talking about the girls he was with back in 1957. Anne Helme wasn't in a relationship with Elvis until he made the movie "Follow That Dream" I think it was 1961. For that reason why would Peter Gurlanick use her as a source,she wasn't there in 1957.
So this is your explanation as to why the "making love" bit not be included into the Wikipedia article.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Fourth Section
User:141 writes: "However most girls say it didn't happen,as in her memoir,Breath Out(2005) Peggy Lipton says that Presley was like a teenage boy." He didn't feel like a man next to me - more like a teenage boy which never matured. "When he tried to make love with Lipton,"He just wasn't up to sex,he was virtually importent."
My Response
I don't know much about Peggy Lipton as I havn't read her book,but the little bit I've heard is that she dated Elvis for about a month I think,didn't she take him to that Scientology place in Los Angelos in the early 70's? I don't disbelieve that this may have occured from time to time with her or anybody else during the 70's,as a result of Elvis's drug intake and what I've read it got progressively worse for him not only physically but mentally as time went on and that his sex life would have been just about nill during the last stages of his life,as stated by the Memphis Mafia (Billy Smith,Lamar Fike & Marty Lacker) from their updated book Elvis and the Memphis Mafia. I will let the sources I cite explain this. Let me say quickly 141,this was the 70's,not the 50's,so I don't know why you felt the need to mention this in your text in the first place,isn't this all over what Peter Gurlanick had to say what occured in 1957?
Before I cite this it is pretty explicit for an Elvis Talk Page, for that reason I will just touch on it shall we say: Barbara Leigh who dated Elvis from 1970 to 1972 writes of their first date: "If anything was foreplay to Elvis it was kissing. He loved to kiss. Our heavy kissing led to our first night of lovemaking"
"Elvis was very passionate and sensual he had the Jailhouse Rock in him and kissed me over and over. (Skipped a bit) We kissed even more passionately,almost out of control. He was spontanious,hungry and made love with the enthusiasm of a teenager" and it goes on. Source: "The King,McQueen and The Love Machine.p.34
Joyce Bova who dated Elvis from 1969 - 1972 (Memphis Mafis members Lamar Fike,Billy Smith & Marty Lacker dispute this lenght of time as only 1 year, in their book Elvis and the Memphis Mafia) Again this book is also fairly explicet so I'll only cite part of it, if only to explain about the effect of the pills was having on Elvis and even his partners.
"Elvis had sat up,pulled back the covers and began taking off his pajams. He was moving quickly,much more quickly than usual,maybe he feared the pills would take effect and prevent us from making love. Waiting to keep pace , I sat up and started to pull my nightgown over my head when suddenly I found I was struggling,my arms heavy as lead. The pills...." source: Joyce Bova "Don't Ask Forever"
Last source around 1975. Joe Esposito talks about Elvis's girlfreind Shelia Ryan. "Three or four dates later,Shelia and Elvis finally made love. But he was no longer the healthy young man he's been with Barbara Leigh and Linda Thompson" skipped a few paragraphs
"Shelia hated when Elvis took valium injections to help in rest. As soon as they took effect,he would grin sloppily and drawl,"Baby...come here" Shelia was exhausted from touring and taking care of him,and sex was the last thing on her mind. Source: Joe Esposito "Good Rockin' Tonight" p214-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The article reads "[..] before being posted to Friedberg, Germany with the 3rd Armored Division.". So, is it Friedberg where Elvis spent most of his time in the army? (i.e. where he was based). There are several other places mentioned in connection with his military service: Wiesbaden (at least there he supposedly met Priscilla for the first time) and Bad Nauheim (there is even a Bad Nauheim medley) to name just a few. So, were those just temporary residences (during manoeuvres or holidays)? Where was he after all?
Speaking about Priscilla, there are quite a few details of her story I never really understood and there's no mention of them here either:
It was many years ago I read Priscilla's book and my English was pretty far from being perfect, but I remember this part being somehow foggy. Other bios such as Jerry Hopkins book are even more silent about it (if I'm not wrong he also briefly mentions another girl, 11 years old). Perhaps such details are beyond the scope of wikipedia, but at the same time it could provide further insight in their relationship and Elvis personality. 82.4.24.17 ( talk) 13:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ruth E,have a look at what User:141 has done with his recent information and how he delievers it in a certain way,or should I say to appear in a certain way. This is exactly what I was talking about before,just by using certain information,piecing it together,I can make Elvis be what ever I want him to be. This is called selective referencing.
I usually find 141's responding text to be both perplexing and annoying,however on this occasion I am pleased he has done this very thing,because what I plan to do is disect this information section by section with the authors involved and put it into its rightful perspective once and for all and hopefully move on and get back to what it's supposed to about,a conscience and informative encyclopedic view on Elvis Aron Presley.
Give me a week and I will have it ready by the weekend. Riskar tidy it up where you see fit,I would really appreciate your help with this.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 00:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I propose adding someting to the Legacy section (or a new one?} detailing the exploitation of Presley, especially immediately following his death. Material can be drawn from Hopkins' updated biog and can/should include some of David S. Wall's observations (re: EPE, etc.). Such a section/additions would not be negated to a related article, as other stuff has been. Rikstar ( talk) 18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
A new section may indeed be created. Here are some paragraphs from a former version of the article which could easily be used perhaps in an abridged form:
It was only after his death that an industry built itself around Presley. Many people of every race, creed and nationality were taking up a career as professional Elvis impersonators — or Elvis Tribute Artists (ETAs) as they now prefer to be called. Conversely, a parallel industry, mostly kitsch, continues to grow around his memory, chronicling his dietary and chemical predilections along with the trappings of his wide celebrity. Many impersonators still sing his songs. "While some of the impersonators perform a whole range of Presley music, the raw 1950s Elvis and the kitschy 1970s Elvis are the favorites." [137]
It has been claimed that there are over 500 US fan clubs and that they exist in every state except three: North Dakota, Idaho and Wyoming. According to the American Demographics magazine, 84% of the US people say that their lives have been touched by Elvis Presley in some way, 70% have watched a movie starring Presley, 44% have danced to one of his songs, 31% have bought an Elvis record, CD or video, 10% have visited Graceland, 9% have bought Elvis memorabilia, 9% have read a book about Presley, and 5% have seen the singer in concert. [138] Not all of these people are Presley fans.
Music critic and Presley biographer Dave Marsh says about the singer's fans: "There are people in places that count in the world, and people in places that don't. He is the son of the people who don't count, and their shining star. That's what makes him unique and what people still respond to." [139] A collection of essays entitled The Adoring Audience: Fan Culture and Popular Media critically examines what distinguishes fans from general audiences and explores the relationship between fans and their adored media products. Part of this volume is the article, "Fandom and Gender" which includes an examination of female fantasies of Presley. [140] To many of his female fans, the songs Presley sang "were secondary to his personality and the way he performed them," evoking the well-known emotional responses. [141] In her autobiographical article, "Sexing Elvis" (1984), Sue Wise even describes "how she came to terms with her lesbianism through a close identification with the feminine side of the King." [142]
"Elvis's 'effect' on young girls threatened those men who assumed that young girls needed to be protected both from sex in general and from its expression in questionable characters like Elvis in particular." [143] However, there were not only female fantasies directed at the star. According to Reina Lewis and Peter Horne, "prints of Elvis Presley appeared to speak directly to the gay community." [144]
"Perhaps it is an error of enthusiasm to freight Elvis Presley with too heavy a historical load", as, according to a public opinion poll among high school students in 1957, Pat Boone was "the nearly two-to-one favorite over Elvis Presley among boys and preferred almost three-to-one by girls"; yet, Presley "clearly outshines the other performers in rocknroll's first pantheon." [145] This poll should, however, be taken with a grain of salt as Presley had significantly more record sales than Pat Boone.
There can be no doubt that it was primarily "the recording industry, which made Elvis Presley a mythical media demigod." [146] "An excessive enterprise, empire and entity, Elvis appears on memorabilia and merchandise, in roadside relics and Graceland's gift shops; at fast food chains, in front yard flea markets and backyard shrines; World-Wide Web sites in cyberspace and sporting events; at parties and parades or as part of promotions, protests and pranks." [147] On August 16, thousands of die-hard Elvis fans travel to Graceland every year in order to celebrate the anniversary of Presley's death. [148] The ritualization of the Elvis cult is also manifested most prominently through the many live performances by Elvis impersonators. [149] According to Marjorie Garber, "The phenomenon of 'Elvis impersonators,' which began long before the singer's death, is one of the most startling effects of the Elvis cult." [150]
What is more, David S. Wall has shown that many authors who are writing books and articles on Presley are part of a "worldwide Elvis industry" which has a tendency towards supporting primarily a favorable view of the star. The content of the majority of these publications can be characterized as based on gossip about gossip, only occasionally providing some new surprising details. There are not many critical, unfavorable publications on Elvis's life. An example is Albert Goldman's controversial biography, Elvis (1981), in which the author unfavorably discusses the star's weight problems, his performing costumes and his sex life. Such books are frequently disparaged and harshly attacked by Elvis fan groups. Professor Wall has pointed out that one of the strategies of the various fan clubs and appreciation societies to which the bulk of Elvis fans belong is " 'community policing' to achieve governance at a distance... These organisations have, through their membership magazines, activities and sales operations, created a powerful moral majority" endeavoring to suppress most critical voices. "With a combined membership of millions, the fans form a formidable constituency of consumer power." [151]
According to David Lowenthal, "Everything from Disneyland to the Holocaust Museum, ... from Elvis memorabilia to the Elgin Marbles bears the marks of the cult of heritage." [152] "When it's an exhibition of Elvis memorabilia," even Marilyn Houlberg, professor at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, "puts on the campy art-world hat and becomes a priestess of the Elvis cult." [153] A collector in Newark, New Jersey "paid nearly a billion dollars for a messy nap-kin said to have been used once by Elvis Presley." [154] Paul A. Cantor goes as far as to call the American Presley cult "a postmodern simulacrum of the German Hitler cult." [155] Some fan groups even refuse to accept the fact of the star's death in 1977 (see the "Elvis lives?" section of this article).
In his book Elvis after Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend (1996), Gilbert Rodman traces in detail Presley's manifestations in contemporary popular and not-so-popular culture. He draws upon the many Elvis "sightings," from Elvis's appearances at the heart of the 1992 presidential campaign to the debate over his worthiness as a subject for a postage stamp, and from Elvis's central role in furious debates about racism and the appropriation of African-American music to the world of Elvis impersonators and the importance of Graceland as a place of pilgrimage for fans and followers. The author further points out that Presley has become inseparable from many of the defining myths of US culture, enmeshed with the American Dream and the very idea of the "United States," caught up in debates about race, gender, and sexuality, and in the wars over what constitutes a national culture.
This Presley cult has been much criticized. "As one reader complained: I was really surprised that you used that article about the boring Elvis cult! You would use one on McDonald's?" [156]
Indeed, there are not only positive voices concerning the singer and his life. During the early years of his career, Country blues guitarist Mississippi Slim constantly criticized Elvis. [157] According to Jennifer Harrison, "Elvis faced criticism more often than appreciation" from a small town in South Memphis. [158] "Much criticism has been heaped on Elvis, the Colonel, and others who controlled his creative (or not so creative) output, especially during the Hollywood years." [159]
According to Robert A. Segal, Elvis was "a consummate mamma's boy, who lived his last twenty years as a recluse in a womblike, infantile world in which all of his wishes were immediately satisfied yet who deemed himself entirely normal, in fact 'all-American.'" [160] When a CBS special on Presley was aired on October 3, 1977, shortly after the singer's death, it "received such harsh criticism that it is hard to imagine what the public response to Elvis's degeneration would have been if he had been alive." This special "only seemed to confirm the rumors of drug abuse." [161]
In a recent study on the analogy of trash and rock 'n' roll, professor of English and drummer Steven Hamelman demonstrates that rock 'n' roll productions are often trash, that critics often trash rock 'n' roll productions, and that rock 'n' roll musicians often trash their lives. The author uses the tortured lives and premature deaths of Presley, John Lennon and Kurt Cobain in his section on "waste" in order to underscore the literal and figurative "waste" that, in his opinion, is part of rock 'n' roll. [162]
However, one of the most frequent points of criticism is the overweight and androgyny of the late Las Vegas Presley. Time Out says that, "As Elvis got fatter, his shows got glammier." [163] It has been said that the star, when he "returned to Las Vegas, heavier, in pancake makeup, wearing a white jumpsuit with an elaborate jeweled belt and cape, crooning pop songs to a microphone ... had become Liberace. Even his fans were now middle-aged matrons and blue-haired grandmothers, who praised him as a good son who loved his mother; Mother's Day became a special holiday for Elvis's fans." [164] According to several modern gender studies, the singer had, like Liberace, presented "variations of the drag queen figure" in his final stages in Las Vegas, when he excessively used eye shadow, gold lamé suits and jumpsuits. [165] Although described as a male sex symbol, Elvis was "insistently and paradoxically read by the culture as a boy, a eunuch, or a 'woman' – anything but a man," and in his Las Vegas white "Eagle" jumpsuit, designed by costumer Bill Belew, he appeared like "a transvestite successor to Marlene Dietrich." [166] Indeed, Elvis had been "feminized", as Joel Foreman put it. [167]
Thus, "Elvis' death did occur at a time when it could only help his reputation. Just before his death, Elvis had been forgotten by society." Except for the fans who held his memory in honor, he was chiefly "referred to as 'overweight and over-the-hill.'" [168] After the singer's death, things changed. In their book When Elvis Died: A Chronicle of National and International Reaction to the Passing of an American King (1980), Neal and Janice Gregory documented through newspaper and television archives the reaction of the media to the spontaneous and unprecedented outpouring of public grief at Elvis's death. One reporter after another described scenes not witnessed since the death of Valentino. When President Jimmy Carter issued a public statement acknowledging Elvis's contribution to American life, he effected a turning point in our culture and the way the media reports on figures in show business. It could be argued that Elvis's death was the event that precipitated the media's dubious current obsession with celebrity. According to Curtis W. Ellision, "The most vivid anecdotes in When Elvis Died focus on the origins of the perpetual death memorial that Presley's home, Graceland, has become." The author adds that "Some anecdotes in the Gregory account reinforce the impression that Presley's death touched nostalgia for teenage years." [169]
In a later essay, Neal and Janice Gregory critically discuss the media attention on the subsequent Elvis religion as a means to discredit his fans. [170] Indeed, after his death, Presley had been seen by fans as "Other Jesus" or "Saint Elvis". [171] "I don't think he will ever die down," Dolly Parton says. "He's considered by many to be like a religious figure, like Jesus. ... I don't know how to explain it, but it's there, and it's real, and people love it." [172]
In his book Elvis Religion: The Cult of the King (2006), Gregory L. Reece describes the presence of Presley in books, songs, art, movies and on the Internet. The author sets out to appraise the religious significance of the star for popular culture. For instance, Paul Simon's 1986 song "Graceland" presents Graceland as a holy place. Movies like "Finding Graceland" and "Mystery Train" have Presley as the central character, bearing spiritual messages. In Portland, Oregon, a woman opened the so-called Twenty-Four Hour Church of Elvis. There, visitors could slip a quarter into a machine, — The Mystery of the Spinning Elvis — to supposedly contact the spirit of Presley. Some Internet sites even invite people to post accounts of their spiritual encounters with the singer. Several artists use Presley as a recurring theme because he is such an icon of pop culture. The Naked Art Studio in Birmingham had a showing of Elvis art. A mosaic entitled "The Last Supper (Elvis)," shows Presley enjoying a turkey leg at a table littered with pill bottles — allusions to Presley's religion and drug abuse. However, "Elvis stands for violence, uncertainty and loss," says Reece. "Elvis is the apocalyptic messenger. One doesn't seek him out for spiritual advice, but shudders at his presence." The author concludes that Presley is the sort of god the public wants today. Elvis was overweight, he dressed out of date and he took too many prescription drugs, just like us.
Only a small part of this material is already included in the current version of the article. Many parts have been excluded last year by Northmeister who created some additional pages in order to get rid of the critical material from the main article. Onefortyone ( talk) 15:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I reviewed my own sources and decided it would be better to expand another existing article (e.g. Elvis phenomenon) with my information and I think the same applies to the above. Rikstar ( talk) 20:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I've made some additions/clean up. Would like to have made more to enable it all to read better, but there would no doubt be the same old objections. Rikstar ( talk) 16:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This needs to be intergrated into the article, a similar thing was done very successfully on the Janet Jackson article, which subsequently became a GA. At the moment this is nothing more than a trivia list with a posh title. Has anyone concidered renominating this article soon it doesnt seem too far off on a quick scan? --— Realist2 ( Come Speak To Me) 17:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Its, good, great move. I would have put most of it into the legacy section too I imagine. Two things need to occur before you nominate.
Firstly make sure its all sourced, I often find on my articles that asking someone you trust but isnt a fan (in your case of elvis) to come in and Fact tag what needs sourcing. That way the editer respects you so they wont go overboard and be nasty yet they dont love Elvis so at least their honest.
Secondly the article needs a trim, its slightly on the bulky side, you cound probably say all the same stuff in fewer words if you tried. If you compare it along side any other huge solo acts they dont come close. Madonna was at 106,000 bytes but I had it reassessed because it wasnt worthy of a GA, its still being improved now and its come down to 85k with all the rubbish removed. You might find that theres stuff you cant source so removing will actually help cut down the article. My concern is that how completely source the article and the bytes jumps up to 130,000.
Anyway, your priority would be to get someone you trust to honestly but fairly fact tag the article where needed. If you need any other advise feel free to call. — Realist2 ( Come Speak To Me) 14:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about what Elvis wanted for his 11th birthday. In the book The Elvis Encyclopedia ISBN 0753502933 (UK) it clearly states he wanted either a bicycle or a .22 calibre rifle on page 19. In the documentary "This Is Elvis", made in association with Elvis Presley Enterprises, the narrative clearly states that Elvis wanted a bicycle for his birthday but he got a guitar instead because it was cheaper. I have re-added this information with a link to the book code and a link to another site that mentions it also. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 23:47, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have also changed the date they moved to Memphis. The original source claims November 1948, however it also claims Elvis got his first guitar on his 10th birthday, not reliable enough for me I'm afraid. I have changed it to September 1948, as printed in The Elvis Encyclopedia ISBN 0753502933 (UK). ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 23:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It's ok, you were right to revert my edits, I should have given sources the first time round but I just assumed that any Elvis fan worth their salt would have known such a detail. It's easy to assume that because I grew up studying the life and career of Elivs, that all his fans did. Completely my fault.
The documentary This Is Elvis was made in 1981 and was made in collaberation wtih EPE, as is evident with the use of Graceland in many scenes that were shot. It also featured very rare footage of Elivs, some of which had never been seen since their original recordings. David Stanley's book is indeed a reliable source for a number of reasons. David was the step-brother of Elivs, and as such had access to him practically 24 hours a day for the last 17 years of Presleys life. He also had access to EPE's records,and many of the people who had known Elvis since 1954/55. The Elvis Encyclopedia is a day-by-day account of Elvis' life and career, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in furthering their knowledge of Elvis Presley.
I'm sorry about the formats of my links, I'm kind of new here and am still learning my way around these things. I will take a look at how the others are written and try to learn a little more. In the mean time, I would appreciate it if anyone who is a little more experienced than me corrects them this time. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 06:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Though you spent a lot of time on the article in order to improve the text, Rikstar, I am not happy with some of your recent deletions, for instance:
See also these edits: [83], [84], [85], [86]. I will leave it for now but I would like to reinclude the material. Onefortyone ( talk) 14:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Why does the last edit say it was removed from Category:Possibly living people]? We have an entire article devoted to Elvis sightings!!! Elvisfan4life ( talk) 17:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
And we have a whole industry devoted to making up stuff about celebrities. "Reliable" and "authoritative" are two key concepts. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
I've created a WikiProject that will hopefully help focus the efforts of all of us involved with Elvis-related articles. Obviously, those of us who work on these articles collectively know pretty much everything there is to know about Elvis. However, we must keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia and just because it's published in a biography does not mean it should be included here. We want to present our knowledge to the reader as clearly and focused as possible, leaving out the gossip, hearsay and such. That's what the biographies are for. So, for what is relevant in terms of an encyclopedia, we want the readers to know everything we know.
In order to get things going in the most productive manner possible, I have the following proposal (which is reflected in the project pages, but can be changed if consensus does not support it):
If consensus supports this proposal, then we can start immediately. If everyone respects this, there should be no need for page protection. However, if edit wars resume and the page is once again protected, this process will still be able to go on as stated above. The only difference will be that only I or another involved admin will be able to replace the current version with the rewrite.
Please discuss. Lara ❤ Love 21:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver.When he was 5 years old he rode llamas and ate tacos. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [1] [2]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins—his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [1] Vernon has been described as "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." [4] In 1938, he was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife, described as "voluble, lively, full of spunk", [5] lost the family home. [6] Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic." [7]
Presley was bullied at school; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [8]
At age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, the young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [9]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [10] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [11] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] Another resident, Johnny Burnette, recalled, "Wherever Elvis went he'd have his guitar slung across his back... [H]e'd go in to one of the cafes or bars... Then some folks would say: 'Let's hear you sing, boy.'" [13] Presley attended L. C. Humes High School, but fellow students apparently viewed the young singer's performing unfavorably: One recalled that he was "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music." [14]
Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. [15] He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [16] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite his unpopularity, he was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home". [17] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [18]
I propose shortening this to:
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [19] [20]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [2] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [21]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [22] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [23] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. [24] He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [25] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [26] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [27]
This version gets rid of quotes (which I think are generally unencyclopedic) and cuts the section down to facts, with a bit of interest thrown in. Rikstar 18:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I fully agree that the "mama's boy"quote is important —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.69.5.141 ( talk) 13:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [30] [31]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [3] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [33]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [34] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [35] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [36] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [37] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [38] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [39]
Rikstar 20:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I endorse this version. It still lacks the trashy, hillbilly quote, but I missed at first that it was a quote from children, so I think it's fine to leave it out. I like this version. Lara ❤ Love 21:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I really don't know if I have the stomach for going through this again, but I once provided a link to a presentation which stated that something like 2 out of every 3 children are bullied in school. (The other third are probably the bullies.) I don't see what's so noteworthy about Elvis being bullied. Most films about Elvis leave out any bullying scenes. Also, why pick on the South? By current standards, the entire country was conservative in the early/mid 50s. Yes, someone wrote it. A "reliable source", no doubt. The South was one of the first areas of the country where "black sounding" music was accepted by white people (there is a lot more complexity to this, but in general it's true), so how how could it have been more conservative than the rest of the country? As far as the trashy hillbilly music part, you "should" see that in reaction to some of the early public performances, and you could use a Barbara Pittman quote that can be heard at the Experience Music Project in Seattle that is specifically about this, though not specifically about Elvis.
Oh, and how do we know that any time we spend one this version of the article will stay around after protection is lifted?
Steve Pastor
23:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Er...Ummm...The sideburns and ducktail haircut came from truck drivers of that day and location. So, if you were used to being around truck drivers... Lansky Brothers were selling those flashy clothes to folks other than Elvis. Bullies will seize on ANY reason to torture a victim, and most people have been bullied in their lives. If we can't agree on what the quote was about, I say leave it out. Presley's early recorded song choices were based on what Sam Phillips thought would sell, and what Scotty, Bill, and Elvis knew how to play. Steve Pastor 20:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with the latest changes. Some important facts are missing:
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Interestingly, only critical information has been removed. This is not acceptable. Onefortyone 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the current version reads:
The following passage should be added:
I'd rather see a quote specific to Elvis and his mother rather than the descriptive quotes regarding his parents. I also like the quote that young Elvis "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you". However, the point is to trim the article so that all the information is presented in fewer words, so I disagree with your need to add information on top of information. We don't need example after example, quote after quote, to get this information across. Make the statement and support it with multiple references. Not all the references have to be quoted. Lara ❤ Love 20:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Ditto what Lara wrote about the non necessity of the information 141 wants included. Steve Pastor 20:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
(←) None of the former versions I read explained it. If you're up to it, draft it below. Otherwise, I'll try something when I get off work. Lara ❤ Love 21:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).Also, are you going to be willing to agree to the removal of any supporting information from this article? Particularly in sections where a main article exists for such expansion of information? Lara ❤ Love 21:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Rikstar, I indeed want to help write a well-balanced article that is worthy of GA/FA status. Therefore, critical material should not be removed. For comparison, here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia page on rock singer Frank Black. It is listed among the featured articles. See [9]. There are several quotes in the “Youth and college” section of this article:
“ | I used to hang out with some misfits. [...] We were the 'we listen to odd-ball music' kids. I wasn't hanging out at all-ages shows or trying to get into clubs to see bands, and I was buying records at used records stores and borrowing them from the library. You just saw Emerson, Lake & Palmer records. So I didn't know [punk] music but I started to hear about it in high school. But it was probably a good thing that I didn't know it, that I instead listened to a lot of '60s records and this religious music. | ” |
Query: if there are so many quotes in this featured article on Frank Black, why should similar quotes be removed from the Elvis article, especially if they are well sourced and throw light on the many diverse aspects of Elvis's colorful life? Onefortyone ( talk) 00:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view states,
This means that well-sourced information should not be removed because some users didn’t like the information. Onefortyone ( talk) 01:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some commentaries by third-party users concerning the Elvis page:
These commentaries speak volumes. Onefortyone ( talk) 01:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Onefortyone, would you mind posting your desired section in the draft section below so we can work from there? Lara ❤ Love 21:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." [57] He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His wife, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), an alcoholic who was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [58] [59]
Presley was born in East Tupelo as the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [10] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6] Psychologists believe that the disappearance of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development" at an age when "a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen." [60]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [61]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [62] (In later years, Elvis still "loved guns, and regularly shot out television sets and light fixtures, sometimes nearly killing various acquaintances.") [63] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [64] At school, Presley was bullied; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [65] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as "a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music." [66]
In 1949, the family lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [67] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [68] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [69] According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [70] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [71]
This is my desired section. Onefortyone ( talk) 00:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
It's longer than the current version. I think it's actually the current version rearranged with an extra sentence or two. Lara ❤ Love 01:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Do we really need to know that Elvis and his mother "slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen", whether it is true or not? I hope this sort of thing won't be in any version of this article. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I grew up in public housing and was poor in the same general time as Elvis, not 30 miles from the Mason Dixon line. I did not sleep with my mother. Nevertheless, if it was so common, then why include it? The banal nature of some of this stuff, such as the tales of bullying, call for exclusion from the article. Regardless, of whether it was "common in the south", as you state, mainstream media generally respects the private aspects of something like who slept with whom. Of course, you have to buy into the idea that even public figures deserve some kind of privacy. I understand that in this day and age, these standards are either breaking down, or have already broken down. Given the need to exclude information to make the article an acceptable size, I think it should be left out. Steve Pastor ( talk) 23:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI "Bullying is a common experience for many children and adolescents. Surveys indicate that as many as half of all children are bullied at some time during their school years, and at least 10% are bullied on a regular basis." [11] Steve Pastor ( talk) 01:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
This is from the Archeive of this page, regarding the bullying information. "At one point we agreed to take it out, and it is back. See page 5 of the presentation at this url [10].In this study only 31% of students reported that they HADN'T been bullied. I identify with anyone who has been the victim of bullies, but can anyone make a good argument as to why this is so important that it shouldn't be deleted? Steve Pastor 00:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)" My question was never answered, so I ask it again. And hope for something more than more quotes from books. Steve Pastor ( talk) 01:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for providing the attribution, although I note that there is no direct quote from Vernon. Note that the words the author used were "would have" rather than "did have" or "was" when describing the house. This is an indication that the author was describing typical conditions rather than the specific conditions. A good writer choses words carefully. There is no question that Elvis was close to his mother, but the choice of words in draft 3 will lead to misinterpretation by most readers without too much added text. The word salacious comes to mind also. And, again, we aren't writing an Elvis biography here.
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [72] [73]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [13] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. [6] It has been claimed that the absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [74]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [75]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [76] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [77] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [78] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [79]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [80] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [81] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy. According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [82] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [83]
A revision, to reduce it's length and redundant wording, for what its worth. I hope editors will note it is not simply a revert and that content remains because it has been discussed above. It isn't my preferred version, but like any decent editor, I am trying to accommodate others. Rikstar ( talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence reads,
I think it is important to mention that Vernon was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." This passage should not be removed, as there is no further information about the character of Elvis's father in the article and it underscores why Elvis's mother had such a strong influence upon her son.
This passage may be shorter:
Or:
As far as the above discussion regarding his early life, there seems to me to be enough relevant, sourced information to create a main article on the matter. Thoughts? Lara _ Love 20:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I have now included the 4th draft of the first section with minor changes in the article. It is shorter than the previous version. I hope this is satisfactory to all. Onefortyone ( talk) 05:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Only passing by. I learned something from this content and had fun reading it, but the citation formatting is muddled (pls see below). Gwen Gale ( talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
On a quick skim-through here, I've noticed a number of original research violations. Specifically this paragraph which I have removed [14], is a synthesis of sources serving to advance a position (check out this WP:NOR, and this WP:SYN). From experience its quite easy to fall into this sort of trap when writing articles or essay's, so we'd best be on the lookout. Time permiting I will take a closer look at the article for more orignal research, any help would be appreciated. GiantSpitoon ( talk) 23:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Well-sourced is irrespective of the point, what you are doing is drawing these sources together to advance a position which you appeared to have reached yourself, and that is original research; in other words your creating a new narrative from a pile of sources you have hand-picked - a big no no. Also, the above quotation you have given is open to interpretation and does not explicitly state what you conclude from it (for example, that may just be ONE ocassion here Presley decided not to do whatever...). Your conclusion that Presley was not generally overtly sexually active from this and other sources bundled together is just that, YOUR CONCLUSION, and is thus original research. Oh, and I do not appreciate being accused of removing material based on the fact that I personally don't like it, please assume good faith in the future as I am with you. GiantSpitoon ( talk) 22:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
During the time that I have participated in this article, 141 has outlasted all other editors, in spite of having been previously taken to arbitration for the same behavior that has been exhibited since being allowed back into the article. Numberous editors have removed 141's contributions repeatedly. 141, however, persists. Steve Pastor ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Dennis Hopper once said in an interview that Elvis was with four girls at the same time. When Dennis asked Elvis if he had sex with all four at the same time he replied "yes". A female friend has said on an E!TV special that Elvis had as many as 7 girls at a time in what she described as a Elvis having different woman in different rooms waiting for him. They joined him after he was finished. Juliet Prowse has stated on camera that Elvis was not only a wonderful kisser but a wonderful lover. Anne Helm, his co-star in Follow That Dream has stated on record that her and Elvis had sex very frequently while filming that movie. Elvis' co-star Joan Blackman also stated that her and Elvis had sex frequently on the movie set. So why isn't this incorportated into that section? Is it because it totally wipes out Onefortyone's wish that Elvis was gay? I say that this section should be removed because it is not factual and is distorted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
In regards to my posting Dennis Hopper and Juliet Prowse quotes on Elvis' sex life, I can't. The Dennis Hopper quote came from a network special on his life which featured Bono spouting poetry about Elvis, and the Juliet Prowse quote came from clips of her speaking about Elvis in between commercials during a WTBS Elvis movie week special in the 90's. She also bragged about being the only women ever to be sleeping with Elvis and Sinatra at the same time. I'm still trying to locate those clips. As far as Joan Blackman is concerned, I remember reading about how they had to air brush Elvis' famous Blue Hawaii ukulele shot because of a "hard- on" he had from fooling around with Joan right before the shot. As soon as I look through my extensive Elvis book collection I'll post the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc ( talk • contribs) 06:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
If I thought it would make a difference to 141, I would go through the archeives and repeat the arguments that have been made by other editors as to why this material does not belong in this article. Since 141 has been unable or unwilling to understand, or accept any other viewpoints on this subject, that exercise would be pointless. Oh, how about this one, the article is too long and has to be trimmed. Steve Pastor ( talk) 20:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I've no objection to this, but the three comments under "The following comments have been left for this page" are all from assessments of the the FA candidate of over a year ago. The third comment is certainly no longer relevant, as there isn't a trivia section. My own comment - "However I am put off by the thought of the time it will take, and the inevitable interference that will come from those who have already made this article as bad as it is." - strikes me as still being of some relevance. Editing/discussion have gone quiet lately: I wonder why? I currently have no wish to continue trying to improve this article. It includes many bits that I and a consensus of others have tried to remove, but they remain because of the single-minded and inappropriate tenacity of one user. That user, Onefortyone, has asked me to return to discussing the Early years section, as if his other comments/contributions can be simply ignored. Dragging my name in to support his fight with GiantSpitoon earns no respect from me. This article is supposed to evolve into a better one over time; my views on what should or should not be included have also changed, in marked contrast to 141's general agenda. Soon, he'll be the only one editing the article. Fait accompli? Rikstar ( talk) 06:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. So we are all belly aching about 141. There seems to be no alternative to involving the Arbcom. I was about ready to do this when Lara stepped in, and I backed off. At least one other editor was with me on this at that time.
The form that has to be filled out is a bit daunting, probably by design, but the only way this is going to work is if we bite the bullet. Many of us have spent WAY too much unproductive time on this.
Please leave a simple message on this page. Please do not equivocate. I'm looking for a YES or NO. I'm guessing that this will be best received if we do it above board and out in the open. Steve Pastor ( talk) 16:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, and the same link contains other clear, but critical, statements about 141's editing tactics. Some things have not improved. Rikstar ( talk) 04:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm with you Steve Pastor, Maria, LaraLove and anyone else of similar opinion. Rikstar ( talk) 22:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote a comment on the 18th November 2007 re: Peter Gurlanick. I have now signed in. However I am still on my learners plates,so please bear with me. In saying that,you all seem very nice and understanding group of people. So here we go! 141, in part of you text earlier in the piece, you mention For reasons of balance, all this is welled sourced information may also be included in the article,if you would prefer that. On the other hand, is it really necessary to include all this stuff? I don't think so.
141, I think to be fair to the subject (Elvis Presley), the author involved in the text, the other editors and the readers themselves, yes, I think it is very important for the article to be balanced. -- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
User: Mfbinc mentions a few ladies stating they had a relationship with Elvis, to conteract the claims made by 141. 141 requests for sources to back these claims. He then mentions a book by Tom Weaver, I Was A Monster Movie Maker: Conversations with 22 SF and Horror Filmakers (2001),stating the book didn't mention Elvis and Anne Helm having an affair. Anne Helm, to my knowledge has not done many interviews about Elvis. She did however give an interview regarding her relationship with Elvis to authors Brown & Broeske, Down At The End OF Lonely Street P. 242-44,449. Due to the fact that there are three pages on her,I'll only include the "Humpy Bumpy" bits,okay. Anne Helme states it is to ignore his physical allure--the hair that was dark blond again,the deep olive tan. But stressed Helm,his appeal was more than physical. "He was so very,very sweet. I think a lot of women reached out to him because they felt he was lonely. I actually wrote some poetry about him when we were making the movie. It was that kind of romance." It was also very physical. "He really liked sex. A lot of nights I didn't go back to my own bungalow. I felt a little ashamed about it the next morning,because I knew that the people on the set realized what was going on." But Helm added,"I have to tell you,I had fun. And it was special. Two paragraphs along- "They sometimes played cards into the early-morning hours,when Presley would ask her to slip into a flouncy,yellow baby-doll nightie he had bought her. "I wasn't crazy about them,but he just loved them,Helm said,laughing. After they made love,he would give her pills----- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Rikstar,your comments and advise were both usefull and encouraging to me,thank you.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 01:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Onefortyone, when you say funny, do you mean funny ha ha or funny parculiar? What can I say, only that my genuine reasons for being here, is to try and help were I can and to make this article as fair and as accurate as humanly possible. On that note, I wish you and yours a very merry christmas and that we can endeavour to have a cival and productive discussion re: this article, in the new year.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 09:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Rikstar, I have been observing this article for six months now, and I would read your contributions, comments and your frustrations on trying to make this a good article, and sometimes you would talk about possibly leaving and I would say to myself please don't. You have shown to be articulate and balanced in your views, this is part of the reasons why I'm here. I have taken your advise about your suggestion for users to read 141's editing history for the past three years. Please excuse my tone, but I have just recently had endure this tripe for two hours. Is it against Wikipedia's policy for an editor to use selective referencing?, if that's the case, it's FULL OF IT. Do you have a copy of Peter Gurlanick's two volummes Last Train To Memphis & Careless Love? He is as I'm sure you would agree the definative biographer of Elvis Presley, even Onefortyone couldn't dispute that fact. If you do have these copies, have a look at the names listed, who he interviewed, but in 141's case, who he didn't. There is no mention of Dee Stanley, or gossip columnist William Dakota or Earl Greenwood for that matter. I wonder why?
To Steve Pastor add me to your list, please.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Last Train To Memphis by Peter Gurlanick. Bibliography - Presley,Dee,Billy Stanley,Rick Stanley, and David Stanley. Elvis We Love You Tender. Greenwood,Earl. The Boy Who Would Be King Index Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Presley - no mention Acknowledgements Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Presley - no mention
Careless Love by Peter Gurlanick. Bibliography- Presley,Dee,Billy Smith,Rick Stanley,and David Stanley. Elvis We Love You Tender. Greenwood,Earl. The Boy Who Would Be King Index Presley,Dee Stanley(stepmother),14,16-17,31,42,46,56-57,58,Graceland,35-36,64,77-78,80,89,93,117. Earl Greenwood - no mention Acknowledgements Earl Greenwood - no mention; Dee Stanley - no mention-- Jaye9 ( talk) 18:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
141, when I discussed Peter Gurlanick to Rikstar, I said he did not interview the likes of Gossip Columnist Bill Dakota, Earl Greenwood, or Dee Stanley, that is all that I stated, and that is a FACT. Dee Stanley was certainly in Elvis Presley life, she was married to his father. In all the pages cited in Careless Love, which by the way was first published in 1999, he never once discusses Dee Stanley's outrageous allegations, which she bought to light back well before "Careless Love" was ever published. Why is it that you seem to be so fixated on these types of topics, or even think they are worth mentioning. Obviously Peter Gurlanick did't seem to think so, otherwise he would have put it in.
Oh by the way 141, I am an Elvis Fan and a John Lennon fan, as well as many other artist, but don't worry I'm taking medication for it.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 19:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
User: Onefortyone 5 September 2007 (Talk),titled "Elvis and Marilyn Monroe",writes: The members of the Memphis Mafia certainly did not know every secret about Elvis. His early girlfriend Judy Spreckles says that the singer told her secrets "that I never told and will never tell." Robert L. Levinson's book,The Elvis and Marilyn Affair (1999) deals with a batch of love letters allegedley exchanged between Elvis and Marilyn Monroe during the filming of Love Me Tender and with a secret affair on the Fox lot in 1956 between Elvis and Marilyn. Though the story is fictitious,the author may have had some information about what was going on behind closed doors.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
What do we have here? Let's try to decipher this text,shall we. Point one: "The members of the Memphis Mafia certainly did not know every secret about Elvis". My response: True, that's a fair enough statement. Point two: "His girlfriend Judy Spreckles says that the singer told her secrets that I never told and will never tell." My response: What do those secrets intail?,do you know 141?,I certainly don't. Point three: "Robert L. Levinson's fiction book on The Elvis and Marilyn Affair (1999)". My response: Simply,pure fiction. Point four: "The Author may have had some information about what was going on behind closed doors". My response: We'll never know. 141,is this your idea of research? your personal opinion,thrown in with a bit of imagination. Yet, you recently criticize user: Steve Pastor, for using DVD'S (film footage)as his method of research. It is my contention,that not only books,but DVD'S and recordings are an important part of that research. I am certainly questioning this one example of what you call research. Yet this rumor,taken from your original source in the main article,"Byron Raphel wtih Alana Nash,"In Bed with Elvis" Playboy Novemver 2005 Vol 52,Iss. 11,p64-68,76,140. This is your only source by the way, makes we wonder how this could happen. 141,is this truly your idea of a compromise?-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
User:141 Writes NB: This is undoubtedly a source from Elvis's lifetime. By the way,the Guardian Article also proves(as many sources do)that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland. You should stick close to the facts to be found in published sources,Lockdale insted of making false accusations against other contributors. Talk:Elvis Presley/Archives:15. July 2006-December 2006?.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Vernon was often at Graceland,but since his marriage on July 3,1960,he lived in a house near Graceland with Dee and her three boys. Taken from: Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano,"Good Rockin'Tonight. p.56-- Jaye9 ( talk) 04:33, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
"It was not until 1963,when Priscilla turned seveenteen,that her father allowed her to live in Memphis". (skipped four sentences) At first,she did stay at Vernon's to keep her promise to her parents. But Priscilla spent most of her time with Elvis,and before you knew it,she was permanently installed at Graceland. (skipped two sentences to finish paragraph. Taken from: Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano book 'Good Rockin'Tonight". p.96-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why you are citing this material from an old discussion of 2006 with my former opponent Lochdale, Jaye9. Are you interested to include some information on the problems Elvis had with his stepmother, Dee Presley, at Graceland in the Elvis article? This would make sense, as another user has also requested to include some material on Dee Presley in the article. See [53]. For the record, on July 3, 1960, Vernon Presley married Dee Stanley. They indeed lived at Graceland for a period of time before moving to a house nearby. So much for your false claim about Vernon above that "since his marriage on July 3,1960,he lived in a house near Graceland with Dee and her three boys." The Guardian (or, to be more precisely, its Sunday edition, the Observer) you have mentioned above clearly says that Elvis "brought Priscilla back to the States to live at Graceland, ostensibly under the chaperoning protection of his father Vernon and his new wife Dee." See [54]. Here are some further sources:
Interestingly, in July 2006, my former opponent Lochdale, who was later banned from Elvis Presley by arbcom decision, included the same false claim that Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley never lived with the star at Graceland in the Elvis article. See [55]. What a coincidence! Onefortyone ( talk) 00:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Please allow me to respond to your text above,but most importantly,pointing out to you what this was all about in the first place,which I will text in bold futher on. Point One: "I don't understand why you are citing this material from an old discussion of 2006 with my former opponent Lockdale,Jaye9"(part of text)signed:Onefortyone(talk)8 January 2008. Response: "If you have any evidence of selective referencing please post specific examples here". (part of text)signed:Rikstar(talk)30 December 2007.
Point two: user 141 writes: "By the way,the Guardian Article also proves(as many sources do)that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland". (part of text) Talk:Elvis Presley/Archives 15 July 2006-December 2006? Response: False and misleading. Point three: "Vernon was at Graceland,but since his marraige on July3,1960,he lived in a home near Graceland with Dee and there three boys". Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano,"Good Rockin'Tonight. p.56 Response: To vague,needed more clarification,so I continued with further referenceing from Joe Esposito's book being: "It was not until 1963,when Priscilla turned seveenteen,that her father allowed her to live in Memphis".(skipped four sentences) At first,she did stay at Vernon's to keep her promise to her parents. But Priscilla spent most of her time with Elvis,and before you knew it,she was permanently installed at Graceland".(skipped two sentences to finish paragraph) Taken from:Joe Esposito and Elena Oumano book Good Rockin'Tonight. p.96 signed;Jaye9(talk) 7 January 2008-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Point four: User:141 writes; "Interestingly,in July 2006,my former opponent Lockdale,who was latter banned from (Elvis Presley)by arbcom decision,included the same false claim that Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley never lived with the star at Graceland in the Elvis article. See[50] What a coincidence!" signed:Onefortyone(talk) 8 January 2008 Response: Firstly,allow me to apologize,for not been able to text(point four)in it's correct format with the wording (Elvis Presley) & See[50],I am still learning to use Wikipedia correctly,sorry! Getting back to my response: 141,I never made the false claim that Dee Stanley never lived with Elvis. Please read that bold text which you cited,that Vernon & Dee Presley had indeed been living together with Priscilla and Elvis for a considerable period of time at Graceland,of which I'm contesting.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
141,I agree Dee & Vernon Presley,soon followed by her three sons did live with Elvis,between 1960-1962(or thereabouts),I will cite it for you: "On January 19,1960,my seventh birthday,there was another call from Mom. By now we were sure we'd never get out of the orphanage. Mom kept telling us we'd all be together soon,but she'd be telling us that for months. (skipped paragraph). When we arrived,Graceland was all natural-coloured limestone.(next page/third paragraph) We lived at Graceland for the next two years in what had originally been a garage for Elvis's many cars and motorcycles. In anticipation of our arrival it had been redone into one huge room that housed Dee & Vernon and the three of us.(next 16 pages) In December of 1961,while Vernon was having our new home on Dolan Street built,we made a sudden move to a house on Hermitage Street.(skipped paragraph) Work on the house on Dolan Street moved quickly,and we could see that it was going to be a big house". taken from "Elvis My Brother",by Billy Stanley with George Erikson p.4,5 & 21-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Final Response: The text in bold is what this was about in the first place and to conteract what was stated in that bold text. Priscilla did not move into Graceland with Elvis unti 1963,as Joe Esposito stated and by that time Vernon & Dee Presley with her sons were not living at Graceland, but in Dolan Street. This is the second time 141,I have had to respond to you,to prove what I said and didn't say,I conclude.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
14:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
When changing the current sections to those we draft on the talk, be particularly careful not to removed base refs. Those being named refs with all the information (ie. <ref name=Bakers>Baker, Sammy (June 3, 1989). ''Thi...). I spent literally two weeks formatting almost 250 footnotes and references. Have some respect and consideration. Lara ❤ Love 15:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) has been described as a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [92] [93]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [56] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. [6] It has been claimed that the absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [94]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [95]
In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. [96] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [97] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [98] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [99]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [100] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [101] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy. According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [102] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [103]
You guys might be amused by a surprisingly animated debate in an unlikely place, the talk page of the NPOV policy page. The bottom line is that the absence of the Elvis sightings concept from this page is incompatible with the WP:NPOV policy. Emmanuelm ( talk) 01:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________________
It should be worth mentioning that the American Presleys, a very rare family name, stem from a Southern Palatinate vintner named Valentin Pressler who emigrated to the U.S. around 1700. Thus the anglicized version "Presley" of the German family name. Compare to the German Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.5.29.146 ( talk) 14:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Any one who saw the thing on elvis on cnn saw that they said elvis was related to oprah throw slavery and slave was pregnant by elvis's ancenstor which made them related and 2 there was something about no photo's were allowed at his funeral and somebody took a quick picture and the elvis in the coffin looked like the younger elvis so possible of what alot of ppl think faked death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.254.160.170 ( talk) 02:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering if anyone knows the charting history of which charts studio albums, live albums, compilations, soundtracks and singles were on, US Billboard, UK, Canada, Australia, and where this information can be founded. Thanks! Hpfan9374 ( talk) 08:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
There are plenty of books listing Presley's charting history in various countries, but try googling "Elvis chart statistics", several times, each time adding the name of desired country and the word "album" or "singles", and you will find at least some of the info you require. The stats for his film soundtracks might be on separate sites. Rikstar ( talk) 10:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
a girl in coe school is doeing a report on elvis
The Guinnness "British Hit Singles" now covers albums & singles. Try www.bibleofpop.cm as well. Krustybiker ( talk) 19:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
the girl did this. the one in coe♣ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.186.53.26 ( talk) 20:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The Article Vandalised today, January 29. Im trying to fix it. This Article needs to be protected. Gduwen
I only saw parts removed that had little to do with Elvis, text that OneFortyOne likes; sentances that wouldn't see the light of day in Encyclopaedia Britannica —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 21:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Fine, let's keep on trashing Elvis *sigh* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.186.17 ( talk) 11:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Not everyone who has been able to edit this article is interested in "trashing" Elvis. If you can, be more specific about your objections on these pages. That might lead to this article moving forward, something many of us want, in spite of continuing difficulties. You might also consider signing in, it looks better. Rikstar ( talk) 11:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Then let's talk about trashing Gladys. "Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic."[15]" This is in the Early Years section. Priscilla did not meet Elvis until he was in the military late in the 50s. I don't see what this quote has to do with the early years. Steve Pastor ( talk) 20:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Her drink/health problems is mentioned later and it does not need to be metioned in the Early Years section. So that's two of us with the same opinion. If more people agree than disagree with this change, then the edit should go ahead. The minority who disagree will have to accept it. This is the only way this article is going to move forward. I still prefer the "2nd draft" of Dec 6:
I agree too, and ip 130.208.186.17 is not user Lochdale and is not banned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 11:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I'm not joking - do you like twisting the truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.183.44 ( talk) 22:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [104] [105]
Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [64] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. [6]
At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize. [106]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [107] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [108] In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [109] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [110] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You"). [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . [111] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time. [112]
Rikstar ( talk) 16:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Arbcom did not rule that you were right. They rejected the case and, if I recall correctly, directed us to Enforcement because there was previously a case against you. I'm not reading all this over and over again. You made your point. Now we're waiting for others to join in. Lara ❤ Love 05:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) has been described as a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933. [113] [114]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church. [3] [66] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. [6] The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [115]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [116]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [117] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [118] At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." [119] At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [120]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [121] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [122] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You". [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [123] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail". [124]
Perhaps this may be the best version. However, I am not happy that there is nothing on Elvis's ancestry in the main text. Onefortyone ( talk) 20:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree. This is why we have articles branch off of this one. Rikstar is only slightly exaggerating about how many pages this article would be if we included everything. The article is also redundant. We don't have to mention the same thing in two different sections. We also don't need to back everything with multiple examples. But, we've already been over this ad nauseam. Which can be found in the sections above. As far as this latest suggestion, for example, it is not necessary to note that Gladys later becomes a drunk. This is the Early life section. Her alcoholism is mentioned later when it is relevant. Lara ❤ Love 16:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Believe it or not, this new version of the fourth draft is shorter than the second draft:
Presley's father, Vernon ( April 10, 1916– June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith ( April 25, 1912– August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," [5] and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17, 1933. [125] [126]
Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." [32] The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line. [3] [67] In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. [6] The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development". [127]
At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". [128]
In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. [129] In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. [6] [130] At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." [131] At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music. [132]
In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. [12] He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, [133] and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. [134] He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. [12] Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" [12] singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You". [13]
After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." [135] His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail". [136]
Any comments? Onefortyone ( talk) 20:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I concur, absolutely, unequivocally. Except for the omission of the Johnny Burnette quote, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of this article's progress. Rikstar ( talk) 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The only listed material that talks about Gladys drinking -specifically - when Elvis was young is the one published in 2006. That book also seems to be saying that the Presley's lost their house because of Gladys' drinking, and her missing work, citing details such as the alcohol could be smelled on her breath, she had blood shot eyes, etc. Who were her sources for these statements? Remember, she is writing about the 1940s. I think this reveals the author's predjudice "The author adds (p.23) that those who were like Gladys "owed their extra weight to drinking or avoiding field work. Alcohol was cheap; food might be hard to come by, but one could always find a drink." Was Gladys working or not? Elvis was ~ 3 years old at this time. Personally, I do not accept the penned in 2006 account about Gladys drinking, and it being a problem, at that time. If she lists who her sources were, I could change my opinion. "Those who were like Gladys", indeed. Is it verifiable at this point. Yeah, but I prefer "the highest standards", and hope you all start thinking that way.) Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is totally unproven- that he died from drugs. Please, let's change this wild assertion. There is absolutely no proof. None whatsoever.
Matthew Laffert ( talk) 10:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
No man, you got it wrong. Check out the Ilchi Lee article, and you will understand that your wild assertions re: Elvis's drug use are bogus. We are establishing outstanding criteria there that prove your sources aren't worth a penny. You need real, valid, quantifiable sources. Those that stand the test of scrutiny.
Matthew Laffert ( talk) 10:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
No man... I've just checked out the Ilchi Lee website. You seem to be arguing against the observations of medical doctors, medical examiners, etc. using beliefs based on Eastern mysticism. I don't see much in the way of compatibility between these. You mention "real, valid, quantifiable sources. Those that stand the test of scrutiny". That is exactly what we have in a plethora of documentation on Presley. It is extraordinary to claim all this is bogus: the onus is on you to provide meaningful, accessible and extraordinary evidence to support your somewhat sweeping and perplexing claims. Nothing on the websites you refer to contains this kind of evidence. It is extremely unlikely that your assertions will find credence amongst Presley article editors. Rikstar ( talk) 12:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not sure why the page keeps getting reverted back to an anti-Semtic and untrue claim that Elvis' Jewish lineage is only valid in Nazi Germany. It's a well known fact that Elvis' maternal Grandmother was Jewish. In the Jewish religion a person's religious lineage is passed down via the mother. See http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html or type into any search engine the terms "Elvis Presley" and "Jewish roots" and you'll see numerous articles and research stating with 100% surety that as far as Jewish law, theologians, The Wall Street Journal (in a 1998 article), and the Jewish faithful are concerned, Elvis is Jewish. However I think we can also agree that despite this he certainly wasn't a practicing Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SUNY Boy ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Some months ago we had a lot of trouble trying to list Presley's ancestry in the main article. It was changed continually, with people arguing about which bits of his lineage should be listed. As a compromise, mention of whether he was of Jewish, German, Venusian, or any other ancestry were left out, but links were kept and interested readers could click on those. Now the opening paragragh has explicit mention of his ancestry again, and it's causing problems again. Why not just have the links, as it was previously? Please, let us all be aware of LaraLove's wikiproject (top of page) and make contributions accordingly. This article has been a nightmare to edit, and new editors need to be aware this. Rikstar ( talk) 10:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Although I think we can all agree that until that time, the anti-Semitic reference to Nazis needs to be removed. SUNY Boy ( talk) 16:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this vandalism, or not? I'm not sure if it is or not, needs someone who knows more about the subject to cast an eye over it. Mjroots ( talk) 22:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It's all very sad, but I baulk at the possibility of engaging in any further attempts to improve this article unless we get more editors involved with an eye on producing a good, encyclopedic entry. The vandals have been rampant, necessitating the lock. I will only peruse these and my talk pages occasionally. As things stand, I'm outta here! Rikstar ( talk) 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a {{ blp}} near the top of this page? Isn't Elvis Presley dead? — Helland ( talk) 21:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have a picture of Fat Elvis? All the pictures are of him still thin. Klosterdev ( talk) 05:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not biased in saying this, but Elvis Jewish ancestry has never been properly substatiated, much of it is a result of massive speculation and therories. The wiki article dosnt even have a proper citation which substataiantes his jewish ancestry. I do not suggest that the aspect where is states he has jewish ancestry be removed, however I do suggest next to where it states he has jewish ancestry, there should me a phrase that reads "Topic of debate" in parenthisies "(---)" next to it.
Isnt there anytalk of People who Belive that Elvis Faked his death? Joe ferst ( talk) 17:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to Wikipedia, but isn't it biased to call drug abuse "drug misuse", as it is called throughout this article? Drug misuse infers there is a good way to use drugs, which is a statement of opinion. I haven't been able to change that myself as I'm not allowed to edit this page, but the phrase drug misuse drives me nuts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjk2398 ( talk • contribs) 12:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
ELVIS WAS ALSO KNOWN AS THE KING. HE HAD NICE HAIR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.16.51 ( talk) 15:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
"To date, he is the only performer to have been inducted into four music halls of fame."
This is not true. Michael Jackson has been inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame (for recordings), the Songwriters Hall of Fame, The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (twice, as a solo artist and with the Jackson Five), and in the Vocal Group Hall of Fame (with the Jackson Five).
Celestius17 ( talk) 23:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll amend this. Rikstar ( talk) 13:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The following quote has been deleted by Rikstar:
Interesting to see another homoerotic, "orgasmic" reference being added to this article by 141 (April 8), an editor with a checkered history of making such observations that I and others do not feel are justified. Stick it in the article about Jailhouse Rock instead; the section here is about his acting career in general - not an analysis of his indivdual films. Rikstar ( talk) 13:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
If anyone has the time or for that matter the patience,go to www.topix.net/forum/who/elvis-presley,go to topix,scroll down to Elvis was a Closet Homosexual,read the discussions made by "Elvis the Pelvis".Duisburg Germany. I don't know if it's just my imagination running away with me,but I beleive "Elvis the Pelvis" and editor:141 are one of the same,either in person or kindred spirit. 141 is this is really you,I'm intrigued,you have always come across as a very skilled writer,who can run rings around me in that department,but unlike me you're not an elvis fan,why would you be bothered going on a chat room with a few elvis fans,who only seem to discuss their love and interest for the man,their not hurting anybody. Wikipedia is one thing,but an elvis chat room,oh come on. However,if this is not you,than I will appologise, in that case "Elvis the Pelvis is definately a copy cat,who seems to have cut and pasted a large portion of you edits here on Wikipedia,also in one of his posts he stated in part "I'm interested in the problems of gay mega stars from a psychological point",arn't you interested in gender study books and reading biographies,not only that,he is a fellow countryman to boot,a match made in heaven. You should get in touch with him to join you in the elvis wikipedia article and you can bounce off each other on every aspect of elvis's life in psychoanalysing bliss for the both of you,but add nausea for the rest of us. Oh just quickly 141,if you do respond to the above,I will be going away for a week on work related business,I won't be back untill the weekend.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 10:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Sight and Sound wrote that in his movies "Elvis Presley, aggressively bisexual in appeal, knowingly erotic, [was] acting like a crucified houri and singing with a kind of machine-made surrealism."
I propose removing the above quote. It - if it needs to be included - should be in a specialized article rather than a generalized section about his films in this biography. Rikstar ( talk) 20:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Your 'gender study' observations have always been interesting regarding Presley. I particularly liked your talk page contribution of 08/27/07, quoting Jack Marx:
"Elvis was gay. He left messages all through his songs, outing himself to anyone who could hear, though the truth was hidden from the public in the lyrics that were published on his records and in fan magazines. Here's a few to hum in your head...
You know I can be found, sitting all alone If you can't call me, Ralph, at least please telephone... - Don't be Cruel
Love me tender, love me true, All my dreams for Phil... - Love Me Tender
When caught in a chap, I can't walk out... - Suspicious Minds
I'm into Richard, out in the hall... - Stuck On You
Sure would be delighted with you pumping me, C'mon into the jailhouse, Rock, with me [emphasis added]... - Jailhouse Rock"... etc.
For some reason you haven't used the latter Jailhouse Rock lyric to bolster your views. Looks like ideal ammunition for your mission to alert the world about Presley's homoerotic/bisexual appeal. Could it be - and I'm guessing wildly here - that the quote YOU gave credence to by using it is in fact just a bunch of humorous crap that should never have been seriously quoted in the first place? Your credibility is permanently damaged by this in my eyes; you simply come across as someone with a rather sad and pitiful sexual agenda that ties up time - and frightens off worthy editors. Rikstar ( talk) 05:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I seem to remember a group of people writing that the process seems to be working. Oh, and I see that the "article is too long" tag is still there. And, what ever happened to that bid for featured article status? Never mind, I already know the answer. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
"Some wondered how the Motion Picture Production Code had been by-passed to allow a teenage idol to swear on the screen - I don't know what the hell you're talking about, or let a scene stay in that showed Elvis and Judy lying across a bed, fully clothed it's true, but neither one with the obligatory foot on the floor at the same time. Time magazine's critic (an inveterate Elvis - hater) concludes his attack with, 'For movie goers who may not care for the personalty, Presley himself offers in the film a word of consolation. Don't worry, he says, I'll grow on you. If he does, it will be quite a depressing job to scrape him off. In the same issue, Time writes despairingly about the whooping success of Jailhouse Rock's title song, whose moviebred lyrics of Jailhouse Rock suggest a powerful argument for penal reform...' Well, they had a point. Leiber and Stoller lyrics, such as:
'Number forty-seven said to number three, You're the cutest jailbird I ever did see. I sure would be delighted with your company, Come on and do the Jailhouse Rock with me'.
Certainly suggest what happens sexually to men cooped up together for long periods of time without women." (Source taken from Elvis and Gladys, by Elaine Dundy p.307 & 308). I remember reading and article of an interview with the writers of Jailhouse Rock, Leiber and Stroller, I carn't remember word for word, but to the effect that when they wrote the song for the movie, they hadn't yet met the star & like many people at the time, did't think much of him and wrote the lyrics as a bit of a joke. Keeping this in mind and Elaine Dundy's penchant for analysis of her subjects life and career, of the 21 pages about the movie Jailhouse Rock, she gave that topic only a few lines. I believe many view the lyrics and its contribution to the film as a whole to be a lighthearted reference to forced enviromental improvisation.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the TCB band, symbol, etc. merits having its own Wikipedia entry. However, I lack the knowledge to write it. I mention it here in hopes that someone can be spurred to do this. Migp ( talk) 17:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
This story has just broken in the UK. It hasn't been verified. There's a good deal of skepticism about it. Rikstar ( talk) 00:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Marty Lacker comments on Elvis toured London with Tommy Steele:
"Tommy Steele's claim that Elvis contacted him and spent a day in London with him is total bullshit.
"It seems Steele is just another person who has come out of the woodwork since Elvis died that has made false claims about themselves and Elvis. They think because he's gone they can get away with it, but they forget that we, the origianl guys who were close to him for 20 years and more, are still here. At least one of us and most times more, were with him just about everyday for all that time. Many days 24/7. We know what he did and who he did it with.
"Tommy Steele was never with Elvis in London because Elvis was never in London. The only time Elvis was in any part of Great Britain is when his army plane made a brief landing to refuel in Prestwick, Scotland on his way home from the army in Germany. Who Steele did meet is Lamar Fike, who says that he went to London back then while he was in Germany with Elvis. He went with a couple of guys and met Steele as part of a group. He spent a few hours with him and the others but he never went to Parliament as Steele claims or any other sightseeing tour with him."
Hope this sets the record straight for people. -- Jaye9 ( talk) 08:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Source: Elvis Informatin Network-- Jaye9 ( talk) 10:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Beautiful People: "Once it was established that a man could be a sex object, it was time to show he could be pretty, too. Androgyny in men would become a fact of life with the rise of rock and roll in the 50s. It was one thing for a flaming queen like Little Richard to cross the line segregating the genders, but even the overtly heterosexual Elvis Presley did some trespassing by wearing mascara and dressing in gold lame, the latter recommendation of Liberace, the entertainment world's most flamboyant fairy.
Following the example of Elvis and the rock and roll rebels he inspired, straight men broke free from the rigid dress code of earlier generations and started strutting their stuff without shame. Now, as men keep in shape with regular visits to health clubs (which their stogie smoking ancestors would have called a gym), the appreciation of male beauty is out of the closet as the gay men do much of the appreciating". Source: Date Info - The webzine of Date.com by Brian W. Fairbanks.
Brian W. Fairbanks has written alot of articles on Elvis as well as John Lennon, Bob Dylan etc. I think he is a bit of an Elvis Fan, don't hold that against him 141, the man just shows good taste. I personally think it's about the music, first and fullmost, the rest just follows,we are all human.
To User:Steve Pastor: amongst his many works, he has also written an article on The Ed Sullivan Show. Go to Brian W. Fairbanks -Writer on the web, if you care to have a look.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
There were a couple of fans of Elvis Presley. Two boys named Andrew Scheib and Kushal Dhangauna introduced a boy named Rishi Haran to Elvis Presley. Kushal Dhangauna introduced Rishi one Elvis song Hound Dog. Andrew Scheib introduced Rishi another song Blue Suede Shoes. Then, Rishi saw music videos of Elvis on Youtube and soon, he loved Elvis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.69.139 ( talk) 20:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
1)
HarveyCarter (
talk ·
contribs) and all of his sockpuppets are EXPRESSLY banned for life.
2) Be on the look out for any edits from these IP addresses:
Jerry Hopkins' updated biog is essential reading as it was the first, and has been updated. It is unfortunate that LaraLove's wikiproject for this and other sections has not been followed. The content of Hopkins' biog is as valid as anyone else's and contains highly relevant information (positive and negative I might add). More to follow? Rikstar ( talk) 18:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
So Samuel Roy has an opinion. So does Jerry Hopkins. His books on Elvis have been combined and "thoroughly revised and updated", according to Jann Wenner, Rolling Stone founder. Rikstar ( talk) 10:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Editorial Reviews
Elvis: The Biography by Jerry Hopkins(Author) Paperback - Sep 9,2007
"Jerry Hopkins long ago established the ground rules for serious biographical consideration of Elvis Presley. With a rare combination of seat-of-the-pants reporting and thoughtful portraiture,he creates a richly nuanced picture of a world in flux,both for Elvis himself and for the broad range of humanity that was - and continues to be - so indelibly affected by his music." - Peter Guralnick,author of Last Train To Memphis and Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley -- Jaye9 ( talk) 06:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said above, I see no problems quoting from Jerry Hopkins's books. Here are some quotes from the author's book, Elvis: the final years:
However, the quality of the author's writing is not always as good as here. Hopkins's more recent book, Elvis in Hawaii (2002), a publication of less than 100 pages, is written for Elvis fans, filled with photographs and memorabilia collected from some fans and chronicling Elvis's time in Hawaii and his three Hawaiian movies. There can be no doubt that Elvis helped create Hawaii's modern image as a tourist destination, but his three movies in Hawaii - Blue Hawaii, Girls! Girls! Girls! and Paradise Hawaiian Style - are pretty bad. "When I did my first Elvis book, I interviewed 200 people and took hundreds of pages of notes and had to travel to different cities just to find out basic information," says Hopkins. "With the Internet, if I need to know the cast list and a synopsis of an Elvis movie, the information is available in seconds. I don't waste my time and can concentrate on actually writing." And he wrote the book in a few weeks. Onefortyone ( talk) 16:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
There is an important interview with Linda Thompson that is from CNN, when she was on Larry King's show. The transcript is here
http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/interview_lindathompson.shtml
The reason I am bringing this up is because I actually believed the Wiki article that he just wasn't very sexual with women, etc. Linda Thompson does say she did not sleep with him for a few months into the relationship, but then it did turn sexual, and she recalls their "romantic first night". She also states that he was faithful for about a year in their relationship and she said it was "some kind of record" (not exact quote, but she implied that he was not a monogamous type of person. Emotionally monogamous yes, but not physically monogamous.). She said that after that he was cheating on her with a lot of other women, ie having sex with them. She also states the reason why they broke up in the interview, and how, when they were breaking up, Elvis had another female in the room below their room, waiting for him (ostensibly to have sex with him).
I just want to note that I am personally not an Elvis fanatic, I am merely pointing this out, and I hope some other editor on this page uses this information. I realize there are bios of Elvis out there, but this is straight from Linda Thompson. Ruth E ( talk) 03:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: Here's the original CNN transcript http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/16/lkl.00.html Ruth E ( talk) 04:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ruth E,thankyou so much for your recent comments,I am aware of this particular interview. I believe Linda Thompson along with her brother Sam Thompson are going to be writting a book about Elvis in the very near future. Linda Thompson is very well liked with the majority of fans and I have only heard favourable comments by many of Elvis's associates.
I have been editing on the Elvis talk page for only 3 months or so,but I really like the concept of Wikipedia,that it's a public domain and everyone can express their opinion,which at times can get heated,but that makes it all the more interesting and yes at times frustrating,but you can learn from it.
Of all the Elvis books out there and there are many,along with their contradictions,I could use that information and make Elvis look like a choir boy,ready for saint hood or a monster,if I so choosed,like most of us I believe he was neither,I go with somewhere in the middle. So my advise is don't believe everything you read,search around other sites as well and make up your own mind. I would like to site something I read from Joe Esposito that made sense to me and pertains to the subject your talking about. All the best to you.
"In certain ways,Elvis was a very unsophisticated man. He loved women,but he was not the super-sauve stud everyone thought he was. No one could live up to that image. Elvis slept with a lot of women,especially in the early days,but he couldn't have slept with every girl he dated." Source: Joe Esposito Good Rockin'Tonight p.182-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
As you can see above User:141's test is quite large,so the only way I can clearly dicipher it,it to write it in sections,along with my responding comments.
141 writes:Bold text As a sex symbol,Elvis met serveral girls for publicity reasons. It is unclear whether he actually had sex with most of the womem he dated. Judy Spreckles and June Juanico say that they had no sexual relationship with Presley. Juanico "recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in front of his band of hangers on,who even then were beginning to accompany him everywhere. He grabbed her arm,took her into the bathroom and declared."Look" your so right,I am really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes,then swaggerd out,his image intact.
Responding Comments: Early in Elvis's career,Elvis's manager Colonel Tom Parker would have wanted Elvis to be seen and photographed with many different women and incoureged Elvis to do so,this was all to make him look available to his predommantly female audience,so they would buy his records. In the early days Colonel Parker did not want Elvis to get married or appear to have a serious girlfriend,such as the case with June Juanico. In her book ,June Juanico comments about her dislike for Colonel Parker for this reason. As for 141 comments about Judy Spreckles and June Juanico,Judy Spreckles was a friend,as for June Juanico relationship with Elvis goes,here's a bit of what she had to say about that.
"Though he still occasionally saw Dixie Locke and had a new sophisticated Memphis girlfriend named Barbara Hearn,Presley embarked on a madcap summer romance with June,of which Gladys approved. But,in a whisper,she warned her son,"You just better not let Colonel Parker know how serious you are about June. You know how he feels,especially about marriage."
"The advice was par of Glady's tragic attempt to regain control of the boy. Gladys was determined to get him married and settled near her. The Colonel was equally determined that Elvis maintain his image of a rock'n'roller who was "available" to the legions of girls filling the concert stands. The Colonel wouldn't even sanction a steady girlfriend.
"Celestrial bodies weren't all Elvis was interested in. He desperately wanted to have sex with June,who adamantly refused."
As Juanico noted five decades later,"It was another time,another sensibility. There were alot of virgins running around including me. She had her suspicions about Elvis,as well. "I had the feeling he really hadn't been around all that much,because he was so gentle". They were both apprehensive. The big fear then,reminded June,was pregnacy and if you got pregnant you got married.
She did allow him to kiss her passionately. And they engaged in serious and creative foreplay. Source: "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat H.Broeske. P.84 & 85-- Jaye9 ( talk) 03:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
2nd Section
User 141 writes: Byron Rahphael and Alana Nash have stated the star "would never put himself inside on of these girls" and that the so-called dangerous rock-and-roll idol was anything but a despotic ruler in the bedroom..." Responding Comments:
It is to my understanding that Alana Nash is a writer for Penthouse Magazine and was assigned to interview and write Byron Raphel's intriguing little story,that is all,that's what a writer does. A story is only as reliable as it's source.
Alana Nash did however write a very highly acclaimed and respected book "Elvis and the Memphis Mafia" with Billy Smith,Marty Lacker and Lamar Fike,a much more reliable source indeed. It is to be noted Marty Lacker and Lamar Fike have critized Byron Raphael in interviews,for his exaggerated claims eg: the Marilyn Monroe Affair etc. The funniest won I heard was Byron Raphel claiming that Elvis was well endowed in the private area,it's even more funnier that Elvis nicknamed it Little Elvis, go figure. This source is just to silly for words. Byron Raphael was not even mentioned in the updated "Elvis and the Memphis Mafia" book,showing him total contempt and rightfully so.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 05:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Third Section
User:141 writes: During his military service,he had "discovered prostitutes and picked up the intense fear of transmitted deseases which led to claims that he had a morbid fear of sexual penetration. "See Tracey Mcveigh, "Elvis Special: Love Me Tender" The Observer,Sunday August 11,2002
My Response:
I just read "Elvis Special:Love Me Tender" by Tracey McVeigh The Observer,Sunday August 11,2002 Not a bad article in it's entirety,the lady appears to have used quite alot of her information from the book "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat.H Broeske. However she did make a comment that got me wondering. Talking about things in it's entirety,141 writes in the first section I have written from this very article "Jaunica recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in the front of his band of hangers on,who even then where beginning to occampany him everywhere. He grabbed her arm,took her into the bathroom and declared "Look" your so right,I'm really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes,then swaggered out,his image intact."
Here's how the paragraph reads from the "Elvis Special: Love Me Tender" article.
'Elvis was a very sensitive person,very tender,but on the outside he was very macho,' she says. An outspoken and fiesty teenager,June recalls a time when she stood up to Elvis in front of his band of hangers on,who even then were beginning to accompany him everywhere. He grabbed her,took her into the bathroom and declared. "Look you are so right,I am really sorry. He kept her there for five minutes then swaggered out,his image intact.
My question to you 141,you're not one for short edits,why did you leave the first sentences out,don't you like sentences that use the word macho in them, to describe Elvis? After all these two sentences were the first part of the paragraph.
Getting back to what 141 mentions about prostitutes,transmitted deseases and claims about fear of sexual penetration,here are some sources that discuss these subjects.
"According to deejay Bill Randle,some of the very well developed young women who congregated backstage at Elvis's shows latter cuddled with him inside his parked car. "There was alot of activity in that car," recalled Randle,adding,"Elvis was a highly sexed young guy - a randy rooster."
"In the beginning he was sexually naive. Sam Phillips likes to tell the time a flusted twenty-one-year-old Elvis showed up at his home to anxiously confess,"Mr Phillips,ahh,Mr Phillips,I got somethin I'm just worried to death about." With that Elvis dropped his pants to reveal a festering sore just above his pubic hair. "He thought he had syphilis," said Phillips,who went on to chagnose Elvis's "risen" as a "carbumcle boil"(later,lanced by a physician). Source: "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown and Pat H. Broeske p.54
The above comment shows Elvis was concerned about deseases way back then. I was going to site more information,don't get me wrong I am pretty open minded,but I'm finding this all just a little perverse. I'll move on to the next section. I'm just trying to makeing a point to all this.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
141 thankyou for your responding comments and excuse me if I don't address them right now,I'm not ignoring you,I'm just going to finish with what I started out to do.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Fourth section
User: 141 writes: Even the Memphis Mafia members didn't exactly know what was really going on in Elvis's bedroom. In most cases,when the girls were waiting for the star were bought up to the singers suite,Peter Guralnick writes "Elvis would go in the other room,he'd go in the bedroom or somewhere,and then when they came back with the girls,the girls would sit there for maybe ten or fifteen minutes and finally one of the cousins would go in the bedroom and come out himself and another ten minutes would go by and then would come Elvis. And there would be silence,and then the cousins would say,'Oh,Mary Jane,this is Elvis,and the girls would be totally gone." Does this sound as if he was very interested in these girls? I don't think so.
My Response
141,you write "Even the Memphis Mafia Members didn't exactly know what was really going on in Elvis's bedroom. In most cases,when the girls who where waiting for the star were brought up to the singers suite,"
How would they know what was going on in Elvis's bedroom,they weren't in the bedroom with him,
then you say,"In most cases,when the girls who where waiting for the star were bought up to the singers suite," You know this yourself do you? As I've said before you not won for short edits, then why did you leave out the first two sentences out of that paragraph you quoted from Peter Guralnick's book? Reading that paragraph you used from Gurlanick's book and your final personal view of "Does this sound as if he was very interested in these girls? I don't think so." I don't quite see your point.
Here are the first two sentence you choose to leave out of that paragraph from Peter Gurlanick's book,"He wasn't really serious about anyone for the time being,though. He was engaging the single life,and when he got bored he just had to tell the guys to hunt up some girls in the Lobby of the hotel. He would have them bought up to the suite,offered one observer"
Just two paragraphs before Peter Gurlanick writes: "In the evenings they would go to the movies sometimes,the whole gang of them,it was,according to Vince Edwards,like "The Clan of the Beverley Wilshire full of cousins and him. "When we got to the theater,'said Russ Tamblyn. We all got out and bought our tickets and formed a line. Now by this time a crowd has formed,you know,they'd see all these strange-looking characters get out of the cars and wonder,who the hell is this,so if there wasn't a problem before,there is now. Anyway,there would be two lines right up to the ticket taker,and Elvis would be the last one,or if he had a girlfriend,the girlfriend would come out with him,and Elvis would go right between the two lines,and everybody would be blown away they'd just move back. I always thought Elvis loved the entourage,and he loved playing the part-he seemed to have an instinct for entrances."
Reading this paragraph and the one you quoted,as it flows in,I believe that the author was pointing out that Elvis liked making entrances,whether he was out in public or in his private life,that's all. But then we all see things differently I guess.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 06:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Fifth Section
Evertime I write the word section,Im typing in Sextion by mistake,do you think it may be some sort of fruedien slip perhaps 141,just kidding,I think I just getting a little tied. I am trying to be as honest & open with you as I can and I'm reading your responses and you appear to be twisting everthing I say around,maybe it's communicating on the internet that's the problem,I'm not use to it,I as a rule talk to people face to face. People can interperat things differantly sometimes, I can appreciate that,but if your playing some sort of little game here,please don't do it with me,I just want to try and help where I can to make this a good article okay.
User: 141 writes: Gurlanick further says "For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even more sophistacted boys they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested. What he liked to do was lie in bed and watch television and eat and talk all night - the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex" and it seems as if he only occassionally had intercourse.
My Response
141,remember when I first came on the Elvis Talk Page and you sited this very paragraph from Peter Gurlanick and I said In response to the recent comments made by User:141 dated 13th December 2007. Taken from Peter Gurlanick Last Train To Memphis p.415. There are just a few more sentences that follow after what 141 quoted in the same paragraph. It reads: "-the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex---and in the early morning hours they would make love. "He had an innocience at the time," said one of them. "Im sure it didn't last."
And I said does this not pertain to the text also.
In your response to what I said,you never explained why you did that,you just quoted the next paragraph from Peter Gurlanick's book etc. By you leaving those few sentences out,to me it was like you slammed on the brakes,it looked very strange. This time however you did go a little further and say "the companionship seemed as important for him as the sex" then you put the brakes on again and you didn't write "---and then in the early hours they would make love. "He had an innocience at the time," said one of them "Im sure it didn't last.
But instead you finish with "and it seems as if he only occassionly had intercourse." I'm sorry 141 leave these statements out and you finish with what you said,it comes across to me a selective referencing,all part of you agenda pushing plan or just plain sniggering,maybe I wrong,but then I only you know that answer.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Just recently have woke up this morning to find your recent response,I'm absolutely speechless,the only thing I can think of to say to you is thankyou for sharing that with me.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
21:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
141,I have just had a chance to calm down a bit,just a bit since this morning. Let me explain something to you if I may,I chose to dissect your recent edits, section by section,because I didn't agree with what you said and wanted to explain why,that is what I have chosen to do and something that is important to me. However,I have spent 18 hrs research on this so far, because if I have a problem with what you say,I have to back it up and it hasto be thorough and accurate as It can be. I thought I would have this finished by now. However reality sets in and I have to go to work and do 14hr a days for the next three weeks.
You said in your last response to me,that I have accused you of twisting things around,selective referencing etc. Yes I did, because that is how I genuinely see it. You also mentioned that my doing so,was showing bad faith,as you put it not the Wikipedia way. May I remind you that you also have called me an Elvis fan,which I am,but as I see it,spoken by you in a way that appears to be used in the most derogatory of terms. I've been called a sock puppet,which I am most definetely not. That my comments of past have been amusing and funny,which I find are both belittling and discouraging. But that's okay then isn't it,one rule for you and another rule for everybody else,is that how it's going to be. This is why I think that this article is stagnet and will continue to be fo god knows how long.
Here's what I'm going to do,to show good faith. Two things,firstly I've decided to have three weeks timeout from what I'm doing on the Elvis Talk Page, because of work commitments and also if I don't do this ,I may very well blow my fuse with you and I don't want to do that. Secondly,I will however cite a paragraph that you wrote today,that I have a problem with,there are more but I am a little pressed for time at this point. Isn't this partly what the talk page is for? to sort out problems with the article. With that I will endeavour to continue these discussions with you in three weeks,see if we can work it out,for the better of this article and for it's readers. Keeping in mind 141, that what ever I say is not against you personally,I would like you to believe that,as I wouldn't be spending all these hours citing my sources. I would just say something like your wrong onefortyone and that your an Elvis hater,well that would be productive,not. See you in three weeks.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 12:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Jaye9, it is unfortunate, but wholly predictable, that you would be accused of being a sockpuppet and that you would be referred to disparagingly as an "Elvis Fan" (we've all been there). 141 has his own agenda. Do not take his comments to heart. Rikstar ( talk) 20:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
See Onefortyone(talk)18 May 2008
First Section
User: 141 writes: This is followed by the most important part of the text. ("For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested") This is a clear statement. Other sources,among these eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to lie in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important then having sex with these girls,although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love." Query: how should the author or the members of the Memphis Mafia know whether they actually made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired after talking or reading the Bible or phitoshical books all night long."
My Response
141 writes: "This is followed by the most important part of the text. ("For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys,they new. They offered to do things for him,but he wasn't really interested") This is a clear statement."
I think what the author was trying to point out,of the girls he met,if they were experienced he didn't go off with them. 141,let's look at the time period the author is talking about,April - September 1957. Elvis was 22 years old,a very young 22 year old,not very experienced at that time with life in general,also shy. That's why I think he was with girls who were not worldly. He also wasn't very well educated and I have heard Elvis say in an interview that he didn't like interlectuals and didn't hang around with these sort of people,for the same reason. They intimidated him.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 11:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Secound Section
User: 141 writes: "Other sources,among them eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to be in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important than having sex with these girls,although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" Query: how should the author or the Memphis Mafia know whether they actually made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must of have been tired early in the morning after talking and reading the Bible or phitophical books all night long."
My Response
141 you write that "Other souces,among them eyewitness accounts by several girls,also say that Elvis primarily liked to be in bed and watch TV and eat and talk all night. This certainly means that the companionship was more important then having sex with these girls,"
Other souces and several girls, what there were two,three,four a hundred sources and girls all said the said the same thing as apposed to the other sources saying the complete opposite. Lets just cite them all and tally them up and see what we get. As I said before in his book Joe Esposito puts it in it's rightfull purspective when he says "In certain ways Elvis was not a very unsophisticated man. He love women,but he was not the super-sauve stud everyone thought he was. No one could live up to that image. Elvis slept with alot of women,especially in the early days,but he couldn't have slept with every girl he dated." source: Joe Esposito "Good Rockin Tonight" p.182
Actually Elvis acknowledges this as well,in his own way,which I'll cite from Joe Esposito's book. "Elvis," I begun tentatively,"I have a personal question for you,but you don't have to answer if you don't want to."
"Shoot"
"Well,you've been with so many girls. Have you ever gotten one pregnant?"
He smiled. "First of all,Joe." he said "if I'd slept with every woman the movie magazines say I have,I would have been dead a long time ago. Before I went into the Army,there were three differemt girls who claimed I made them pregnant. A couple of them claimed they'd had abortions. But I didn't get them pregnant.
"How do you know for sure?"
"Whenever I'm making love,I make sure I don't come in them I pull out in plenty of time." p.48
Then you continue with "although Gurlanick claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" Query: how would the author or the member of the Memphis Mafia know wherther they made love in the bedroom? Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking or reading the Bible or philosphical books all night long."
My Response
In regard to you saying how would the author or the Memphis Mafia know this to be the case. Let's put it this way,I read an interview with Peter Gurlanick on the internet,(sorry ,but I'm pressed for time,I will cite it for you in three weeks for sure)to my memory he mainly talked about Elvis's music, but he did talk about Albert Goldman,not to any large degree, but part of what he spoke about was what Goldman had written in his book "Elvis" Goldman had said that the Memphis Mafia would go to down down Los Angelos and buy the lattest f**K books for Elvis and Elvis would take one these books to bed and masturbate every night and said that Elvis was a cronic masturbater and Peter Gurlanic had said how would he know,he wasn't in the bedroom with Elvis. So you see,looking at what he said and being the type of biograhpher Peter Gurlanick is known for, I seriously doubt he would have said that Elvis had made love with these girls in the early hours of the morning without a having a reliable source or sources.
141,then finishes off with "Both Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking or reading the Bible or philophical books all night long."
So here you are questioning Peter Gurlanick's integrity as a writter and the Memphis Mafia who knew him(men talk).
You don't look at that, instead you give you own interpretation of things, by saying "Elvis and the girls must have been tired early in the morning after talking and reading the Bible or philophical books books all night long." After reading that I say to myself,who do I believe Peter Gurlanick & the Memphis Mafia or 141 intriging little insight. Have a guess?-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Third Section
User:141 writes: "Only occassionly this might be the case, as Anne Helme stated that they had sex,relating that they "played cards into the early morning hours,when Presley would ask her to slip into a flauncy,yellow baby-doll nighty he had bought her" Perhaps this was the souce Gurlanick had in mind."
141 then says "Therefore,it is not necessary to cite the extra paragraphs from Gurlanicks book in the Wiklpedia article,as the author claims that "in the early morning hours they would make love" (a statement presumably based on a simple source such as Anne Helm)is contradicted by several sources."
My Response
Are you saying 141 that Anne Helme may have been Peter Gurlanick's source or based on what she said,to give cause for Peter Gurlanick to put that in?
As I've said before Anne Helme to my knowledge has not down many interviews. The only time I've read any interviews with her and what she has said about her relationship with Elvis,was in the book "Down At The End Of Lonely Street" by Peter Harry Brown & Pat H. Broeske. Peter Gurlanick was talking about the girls he was with back in 1957. Anne Helme wasn't in a relationship with Elvis until he made the movie "Follow That Dream" I think it was 1961. For that reason why would Peter Gurlanick use her as a source,she wasn't there in 1957.
So this is your explanation as to why the "making love" bit not be included into the Wikipedia article.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 14:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Fourth Section
User:141 writes: "However most girls say it didn't happen,as in her memoir,Breath Out(2005) Peggy Lipton says that Presley was like a teenage boy." He didn't feel like a man next to me - more like a teenage boy which never matured. "When he tried to make love with Lipton,"He just wasn't up to sex,he was virtually importent."
My Response
I don't know much about Peggy Lipton as I havn't read her book,but the little bit I've heard is that she dated Elvis for about a month I think,didn't she take him to that Scientology place in Los Angelos in the early 70's? I don't disbelieve that this may have occured from time to time with her or anybody else during the 70's,as a result of Elvis's drug intake and what I've read it got progressively worse for him not only physically but mentally as time went on and that his sex life would have been just about nill during the last stages of his life,as stated by the Memphis Mafia (Billy Smith,Lamar Fike & Marty Lacker) from their updated book Elvis and the Memphis Mafia. I will let the sources I cite explain this. Let me say quickly 141,this was the 70's,not the 50's,so I don't know why you felt the need to mention this in your text in the first place,isn't this all over what Peter Gurlanick had to say what occured in 1957?
Before I cite this it is pretty explicit for an Elvis Talk Page, for that reason I will just touch on it shall we say: Barbara Leigh who dated Elvis from 1970 to 1972 writes of their first date: "If anything was foreplay to Elvis it was kissing. He loved to kiss. Our heavy kissing led to our first night of lovemaking"
"Elvis was very passionate and sensual he had the Jailhouse Rock in him and kissed me over and over. (Skipped a bit) We kissed even more passionately,almost out of control. He was spontanious,hungry and made love with the enthusiasm of a teenager" and it goes on. Source: "The King,McQueen and The Love Machine.p.34
Joyce Bova who dated Elvis from 1969 - 1972 (Memphis Mafis members Lamar Fike,Billy Smith & Marty Lacker dispute this lenght of time as only 1 year, in their book Elvis and the Memphis Mafia) Again this book is also fairly explicet so I'll only cite part of it, if only to explain about the effect of the pills was having on Elvis and even his partners.
"Elvis had sat up,pulled back the covers and began taking off his pajams. He was moving quickly,much more quickly than usual,maybe he feared the pills would take effect and prevent us from making love. Waiting to keep pace , I sat up and started to pull my nightgown over my head when suddenly I found I was struggling,my arms heavy as lead. The pills...." source: Joyce Bova "Don't Ask Forever"
Last source around 1975. Joe Esposito talks about Elvis's girlfreind Shelia Ryan. "Three or four dates later,Shelia and Elvis finally made love. But he was no longer the healthy young man he's been with Barbara Leigh and Linda Thompson" skipped a few paragraphs
"Shelia hated when Elvis took valium injections to help in rest. As soon as they took effect,he would grin sloppily and drawl,"Baby...come here" Shelia was exhausted from touring and taking care of him,and sex was the last thing on her mind. Source: Joe Esposito "Good Rockin' Tonight" p214-- Jaye9 ( talk) 15:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The article reads "[..] before being posted to Friedberg, Germany with the 3rd Armored Division.". So, is it Friedberg where Elvis spent most of his time in the army? (i.e. where he was based). There are several other places mentioned in connection with his military service: Wiesbaden (at least there he supposedly met Priscilla for the first time) and Bad Nauheim (there is even a Bad Nauheim medley) to name just a few. So, were those just temporary residences (during manoeuvres or holidays)? Where was he after all?
Speaking about Priscilla, there are quite a few details of her story I never really understood and there's no mention of them here either:
It was many years ago I read Priscilla's book and my English was pretty far from being perfect, but I remember this part being somehow foggy. Other bios such as Jerry Hopkins book are even more silent about it (if I'm not wrong he also briefly mentions another girl, 11 years old). Perhaps such details are beyond the scope of wikipedia, but at the same time it could provide further insight in their relationship and Elvis personality. 82.4.24.17 ( talk) 13:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Ruth E,have a look at what User:141 has done with his recent information and how he delievers it in a certain way,or should I say to appear in a certain way. This is exactly what I was talking about before,just by using certain information,piecing it together,I can make Elvis be what ever I want him to be. This is called selective referencing.
I usually find 141's responding text to be both perplexing and annoying,however on this occasion I am pleased he has done this very thing,because what I plan to do is disect this information section by section with the authors involved and put it into its rightful perspective once and for all and hopefully move on and get back to what it's supposed to about,a conscience and informative encyclopedic view on Elvis Aron Presley.
Give me a week and I will have it ready by the weekend. Riskar tidy it up where you see fit,I would really appreciate your help with this.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 00:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I propose adding someting to the Legacy section (or a new one?} detailing the exploitation of Presley, especially immediately following his death. Material can be drawn from Hopkins' updated biog and can/should include some of David S. Wall's observations (re: EPE, etc.). Such a section/additions would not be negated to a related article, as other stuff has been. Rikstar ( talk) 18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
A new section may indeed be created. Here are some paragraphs from a former version of the article which could easily be used perhaps in an abridged form:
It was only after his death that an industry built itself around Presley. Many people of every race, creed and nationality were taking up a career as professional Elvis impersonators — or Elvis Tribute Artists (ETAs) as they now prefer to be called. Conversely, a parallel industry, mostly kitsch, continues to grow around his memory, chronicling his dietary and chemical predilections along with the trappings of his wide celebrity. Many impersonators still sing his songs. "While some of the impersonators perform a whole range of Presley music, the raw 1950s Elvis and the kitschy 1970s Elvis are the favorites." [137]
It has been claimed that there are over 500 US fan clubs and that they exist in every state except three: North Dakota, Idaho and Wyoming. According to the American Demographics magazine, 84% of the US people say that their lives have been touched by Elvis Presley in some way, 70% have watched a movie starring Presley, 44% have danced to one of his songs, 31% have bought an Elvis record, CD or video, 10% have visited Graceland, 9% have bought Elvis memorabilia, 9% have read a book about Presley, and 5% have seen the singer in concert. [138] Not all of these people are Presley fans.
Music critic and Presley biographer Dave Marsh says about the singer's fans: "There are people in places that count in the world, and people in places that don't. He is the son of the people who don't count, and their shining star. That's what makes him unique and what people still respond to." [139] A collection of essays entitled The Adoring Audience: Fan Culture and Popular Media critically examines what distinguishes fans from general audiences and explores the relationship between fans and their adored media products. Part of this volume is the article, "Fandom and Gender" which includes an examination of female fantasies of Presley. [140] To many of his female fans, the songs Presley sang "were secondary to his personality and the way he performed them," evoking the well-known emotional responses. [141] In her autobiographical article, "Sexing Elvis" (1984), Sue Wise even describes "how she came to terms with her lesbianism through a close identification with the feminine side of the King." [142]
"Elvis's 'effect' on young girls threatened those men who assumed that young girls needed to be protected both from sex in general and from its expression in questionable characters like Elvis in particular." [143] However, there were not only female fantasies directed at the star. According to Reina Lewis and Peter Horne, "prints of Elvis Presley appeared to speak directly to the gay community." [144]
"Perhaps it is an error of enthusiasm to freight Elvis Presley with too heavy a historical load", as, according to a public opinion poll among high school students in 1957, Pat Boone was "the nearly two-to-one favorite over Elvis Presley among boys and preferred almost three-to-one by girls"; yet, Presley "clearly outshines the other performers in rocknroll's first pantheon." [145] This poll should, however, be taken with a grain of salt as Presley had significantly more record sales than Pat Boone.
There can be no doubt that it was primarily "the recording industry, which made Elvis Presley a mythical media demigod." [146] "An excessive enterprise, empire and entity, Elvis appears on memorabilia and merchandise, in roadside relics and Graceland's gift shops; at fast food chains, in front yard flea markets and backyard shrines; World-Wide Web sites in cyberspace and sporting events; at parties and parades or as part of promotions, protests and pranks." [147] On August 16, thousands of die-hard Elvis fans travel to Graceland every year in order to celebrate the anniversary of Presley's death. [148] The ritualization of the Elvis cult is also manifested most prominently through the many live performances by Elvis impersonators. [149] According to Marjorie Garber, "The phenomenon of 'Elvis impersonators,' which began long before the singer's death, is one of the most startling effects of the Elvis cult." [150]
What is more, David S. Wall has shown that many authors who are writing books and articles on Presley are part of a "worldwide Elvis industry" which has a tendency towards supporting primarily a favorable view of the star. The content of the majority of these publications can be characterized as based on gossip about gossip, only occasionally providing some new surprising details. There are not many critical, unfavorable publications on Elvis's life. An example is Albert Goldman's controversial biography, Elvis (1981), in which the author unfavorably discusses the star's weight problems, his performing costumes and his sex life. Such books are frequently disparaged and harshly attacked by Elvis fan groups. Professor Wall has pointed out that one of the strategies of the various fan clubs and appreciation societies to which the bulk of Elvis fans belong is " 'community policing' to achieve governance at a distance... These organisations have, through their membership magazines, activities and sales operations, created a powerful moral majority" endeavoring to suppress most critical voices. "With a combined membership of millions, the fans form a formidable constituency of consumer power." [151]
According to David Lowenthal, "Everything from Disneyland to the Holocaust Museum, ... from Elvis memorabilia to the Elgin Marbles bears the marks of the cult of heritage." [152] "When it's an exhibition of Elvis memorabilia," even Marilyn Houlberg, professor at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, "puts on the campy art-world hat and becomes a priestess of the Elvis cult." [153] A collector in Newark, New Jersey "paid nearly a billion dollars for a messy nap-kin said to have been used once by Elvis Presley." [154] Paul A. Cantor goes as far as to call the American Presley cult "a postmodern simulacrum of the German Hitler cult." [155] Some fan groups even refuse to accept the fact of the star's death in 1977 (see the "Elvis lives?" section of this article).
In his book Elvis after Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend (1996), Gilbert Rodman traces in detail Presley's manifestations in contemporary popular and not-so-popular culture. He draws upon the many Elvis "sightings," from Elvis's appearances at the heart of the 1992 presidential campaign to the debate over his worthiness as a subject for a postage stamp, and from Elvis's central role in furious debates about racism and the appropriation of African-American music to the world of Elvis impersonators and the importance of Graceland as a place of pilgrimage for fans and followers. The author further points out that Presley has become inseparable from many of the defining myths of US culture, enmeshed with the American Dream and the very idea of the "United States," caught up in debates about race, gender, and sexuality, and in the wars over what constitutes a national culture.
This Presley cult has been much criticized. "As one reader complained: I was really surprised that you used that article about the boring Elvis cult! You would use one on McDonald's?" [156]
Indeed, there are not only positive voices concerning the singer and his life. During the early years of his career, Country blues guitarist Mississippi Slim constantly criticized Elvis. [157] According to Jennifer Harrison, "Elvis faced criticism more often than appreciation" from a small town in South Memphis. [158] "Much criticism has been heaped on Elvis, the Colonel, and others who controlled his creative (or not so creative) output, especially during the Hollywood years." [159]
According to Robert A. Segal, Elvis was "a consummate mamma's boy, who lived his last twenty years as a recluse in a womblike, infantile world in which all of his wishes were immediately satisfied yet who deemed himself entirely normal, in fact 'all-American.'" [160] When a CBS special on Presley was aired on October 3, 1977, shortly after the singer's death, it "received such harsh criticism that it is hard to imagine what the public response to Elvis's degeneration would have been if he had been alive." This special "only seemed to confirm the rumors of drug abuse." [161]
In a recent study on the analogy of trash and rock 'n' roll, professor of English and drummer Steven Hamelman demonstrates that rock 'n' roll productions are often trash, that critics often trash rock 'n' roll productions, and that rock 'n' roll musicians often trash their lives. The author uses the tortured lives and premature deaths of Presley, John Lennon and Kurt Cobain in his section on "waste" in order to underscore the literal and figurative "waste" that, in his opinion, is part of rock 'n' roll. [162]
However, one of the most frequent points of criticism is the overweight and androgyny of the late Las Vegas Presley. Time Out says that, "As Elvis got fatter, his shows got glammier." [163] It has been said that the star, when he "returned to Las Vegas, heavier, in pancake makeup, wearing a white jumpsuit with an elaborate jeweled belt and cape, crooning pop songs to a microphone ... had become Liberace. Even his fans were now middle-aged matrons and blue-haired grandmothers, who praised him as a good son who loved his mother; Mother's Day became a special holiday for Elvis's fans." [164] According to several modern gender studies, the singer had, like Liberace, presented "variations of the drag queen figure" in his final stages in Las Vegas, when he excessively used eye shadow, gold lamé suits and jumpsuits. [165] Although described as a male sex symbol, Elvis was "insistently and paradoxically read by the culture as a boy, a eunuch, or a 'woman' – anything but a man," and in his Las Vegas white "Eagle" jumpsuit, designed by costumer Bill Belew, he appeared like "a transvestite successor to Marlene Dietrich." [166] Indeed, Elvis had been "feminized", as Joel Foreman put it. [167]
Thus, "Elvis' death did occur at a time when it could only help his reputation. Just before his death, Elvis had been forgotten by society." Except for the fans who held his memory in honor, he was chiefly "referred to as 'overweight and over-the-hill.'" [168] After the singer's death, things changed. In their book When Elvis Died: A Chronicle of National and International Reaction to the Passing of an American King (1980), Neal and Janice Gregory documented through newspaper and television archives the reaction of the media to the spontaneous and unprecedented outpouring of public grief at Elvis's death. One reporter after another described scenes not witnessed since the death of Valentino. When President Jimmy Carter issued a public statement acknowledging Elvis's contribution to American life, he effected a turning point in our culture and the way the media reports on figures in show business. It could be argued that Elvis's death was the event that precipitated the media's dubious current obsession with celebrity. According to Curtis W. Ellision, "The most vivid anecdotes in When Elvis Died focus on the origins of the perpetual death memorial that Presley's home, Graceland, has become." The author adds that "Some anecdotes in the Gregory account reinforce the impression that Presley's death touched nostalgia for teenage years." [169]
In a later essay, Neal and Janice Gregory critically discuss the media attention on the subsequent Elvis religion as a means to discredit his fans. [170] Indeed, after his death, Presley had been seen by fans as "Other Jesus" or "Saint Elvis". [171] "I don't think he will ever die down," Dolly Parton says. "He's considered by many to be like a religious figure, like Jesus. ... I don't know how to explain it, but it's there, and it's real, and people love it." [172]
In his book Elvis Religion: The Cult of the King (2006), Gregory L. Reece describes the presence of Presley in books, songs, art, movies and on the Internet. The author sets out to appraise the religious significance of the star for popular culture. For instance, Paul Simon's 1986 song "Graceland" presents Graceland as a holy place. Movies like "Finding Graceland" and "Mystery Train" have Presley as the central character, bearing spiritual messages. In Portland, Oregon, a woman opened the so-called Twenty-Four Hour Church of Elvis. There, visitors could slip a quarter into a machine, — The Mystery of the Spinning Elvis — to supposedly contact the spirit of Presley. Some Internet sites even invite people to post accounts of their spiritual encounters with the singer. Several artists use Presley as a recurring theme because he is such an icon of pop culture. The Naked Art Studio in Birmingham had a showing of Elvis art. A mosaic entitled "The Last Supper (Elvis)," shows Presley enjoying a turkey leg at a table littered with pill bottles — allusions to Presley's religion and drug abuse. However, "Elvis stands for violence, uncertainty and loss," says Reece. "Elvis is the apocalyptic messenger. One doesn't seek him out for spiritual advice, but shudders at his presence." The author concludes that Presley is the sort of god the public wants today. Elvis was overweight, he dressed out of date and he took too many prescription drugs, just like us.
Only a small part of this material is already included in the current version of the article. Many parts have been excluded last year by Northmeister who created some additional pages in order to get rid of the critical material from the main article. Onefortyone ( talk) 15:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I reviewed my own sources and decided it would be better to expand another existing article (e.g. Elvis phenomenon) with my information and I think the same applies to the above. Rikstar ( talk) 20:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I've made some additions/clean up. Would like to have made more to enable it all to read better, but there would no doubt be the same old objections. Rikstar ( talk) 16:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This needs to be intergrated into the article, a similar thing was done very successfully on the Janet Jackson article, which subsequently became a GA. At the moment this is nothing more than a trivia list with a posh title. Has anyone concidered renominating this article soon it doesnt seem too far off on a quick scan? --— Realist2 ( Come Speak To Me) 17:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Its, good, great move. I would have put most of it into the legacy section too I imagine. Two things need to occur before you nominate.
Firstly make sure its all sourced, I often find on my articles that asking someone you trust but isnt a fan (in your case of elvis) to come in and Fact tag what needs sourcing. That way the editer respects you so they wont go overboard and be nasty yet they dont love Elvis so at least their honest.
Secondly the article needs a trim, its slightly on the bulky side, you cound probably say all the same stuff in fewer words if you tried. If you compare it along side any other huge solo acts they dont come close. Madonna was at 106,000 bytes but I had it reassessed because it wasnt worthy of a GA, its still being improved now and its come down to 85k with all the rubbish removed. You might find that theres stuff you cant source so removing will actually help cut down the article. My concern is that how completely source the article and the bytes jumps up to 130,000.
Anyway, your priority would be to get someone you trust to honestly but fairly fact tag the article where needed. If you need any other advise feel free to call. — Realist2 ( Come Speak To Me) 14:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about what Elvis wanted for his 11th birthday. In the book The Elvis Encyclopedia ISBN 0753502933 (UK) it clearly states he wanted either a bicycle or a .22 calibre rifle on page 19. In the documentary "This Is Elvis", made in association with Elvis Presley Enterprises, the narrative clearly states that Elvis wanted a bicycle for his birthday but he got a guitar instead because it was cheaper. I have re-added this information with a link to the book code and a link to another site that mentions it also. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 23:47, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have also changed the date they moved to Memphis. The original source claims November 1948, however it also claims Elvis got his first guitar on his 10th birthday, not reliable enough for me I'm afraid. I have changed it to September 1948, as printed in The Elvis Encyclopedia ISBN 0753502933 (UK). ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 23:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It's ok, you were right to revert my edits, I should have given sources the first time round but I just assumed that any Elvis fan worth their salt would have known such a detail. It's easy to assume that because I grew up studying the life and career of Elivs, that all his fans did. Completely my fault.
The documentary This Is Elvis was made in 1981 and was made in collaberation wtih EPE, as is evident with the use of Graceland in many scenes that were shot. It also featured very rare footage of Elivs, some of which had never been seen since their original recordings. David Stanley's book is indeed a reliable source for a number of reasons. David was the step-brother of Elivs, and as such had access to him practically 24 hours a day for the last 17 years of Presleys life. He also had access to EPE's records,and many of the people who had known Elvis since 1954/55. The Elvis Encyclopedia is a day-by-day account of Elvis' life and career, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in furthering their knowledge of Elvis Presley.
I'm sorry about the formats of my links, I'm kind of new here and am still learning my way around these things. I will take a look at how the others are written and try to learn a little more. In the mean time, I would appreciate it if anyone who is a little more experienced than me corrects them this time. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 06:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Though you spent a lot of time on the article in order to improve the text, Rikstar, I am not happy with some of your recent deletions, for instance:
See also these edits: [83], [84], [85], [86]. I will leave it for now but I would like to reinclude the material. Onefortyone ( talk) 14:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Why does the last edit say it was removed from Category:Possibly living people]? We have an entire article devoted to Elvis sightings!!! Elvisfan4life ( talk) 17:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
And we have a whole industry devoted to making up stuff about celebrities. "Reliable" and "authoritative" are two key concepts. Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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