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I humbly suggest you mention Elvis fascination with Martial Arts, how he was one of the first westerners to receive a blackbelt, how he did demonstrations on stage, etc.
what about the Jordanaires? (sp?) [sp see section)
Presley's importance to American and world culture are such that this article deserves a serious rewrite. If someone will do it, that would be great....DW
P.S. Note I changed his middle name on the opening line to the way it is spelled on his birth certificate.
The Martial Arts info is important, I'll see if I can find enough specifics to make an attempt.
It's really important to some joker on here to pretend Elvis is the gay son of a Jewish couple.... wouldn't be surprised if it's the author of one of the trash/loid books. Folks are always trying to make a buck inventing something new about Elvis, it's easier than accomplishing anything worthwhile on their own.
Which are you, David Bret or his publisher? He has written some of the most discredited, inaccurate bios in the industry and this is just another of his throwaway, tabloid, invent-for-cash pieces of trash. This book is not considered a credible Elvis work regarding Elvis' career or his personal life and I believe you already know that. Further, it is completely inappropriate to use Wikipedia for the placement of product advertisements, particularly in the aggressive manner in which you persist in monitoring and pursuing the promotion of Bret.
I removed completely the "gay" reference. In this day and age, much trash is written and it is easy to do because a dead person cannot be slandered by law. {Actually since Elvis is a copyrighted trademark owned by EPE I think there is a way to rectify this outragous insistance about Elvis being gay. He was NOT, and EPE is looking into this right now.} As such, authors of limited skills like David Bret, immune from lawsuits, use any form of sensationalism to sell books. In the case of Presley, he provided zero proof of any homosexual relationship. His book and the claim of a gay Elvis has been totally dismissed by all but a few with an agenda. No credible media organization gave his book any validity of any nature. To add to Wikipedia this unfounded claim from such a source, belittles Wikipedia and does great harm to its credibility. NightCrawler 17:02, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I don't think that the material from the David Bret biography should be deleted, but I would like to see it corroborated. ffirehorse 23:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Isn't there anything exciting in Duisburg for you do besides trying to ruin a dead man's reputation?
Elvis was nonconfrontational and that's why he never stood up to Colonel P. Bret and Dee Presley are wrong. Period.
Elvis was very much aware of the fact that Priscilla Presley was under age at the beginning of their relationship, and he was reticent to engage in a sexual relationship with her while she was under age. As their relationship grew more serious, Elvis refrained from having sex with her because he wanted to marry a virgin.
I'm 100% straight, yet am not constantly having sex. I better watch out, when I die I might suddenly become gay. Mind you, there won't be as much money to make out of me as they're would be Elvis Presley. 195.93.21.4 02:18, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
1) "the demand for transistor radios exploded so much so that Sony went from a small Japanese telecommunications company making radios to a giant global conglomerate"
Uuuuuh ! What about this? Is it all thank to Elvis that Sony becam what it is now?? If not (and I'm pretty sure it's not), this information has no place here.
2) The word "constipation" isn't mentioned even once in this article. After all, it is a popular myth that Elvis died because of this lifestyle-related problem whilst on the crapper. I see a real problem with the neutrality of this article: it is mostly written by hardcore Elvis fans - people who probably think he changed their lives to the better and so forth. But neutral point of view knows no boundaries, and unpopular facts about their wonderful hero deserve mentioning, no matter how offencive they are to them.
I love Elvis's music, but I don't know much about his international impact. The thing is that the section isn't quite complete, so I was wondering if there's someone who knows a great deal about Elvis Presley's international influence. Then you can expand on information on Elvis's influence. If there's somebody who's a big Elvis fan, please let me know. Marcus2 13:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Elvis had more Top 10 hits in the UK than in the US, and was popular all over the world. Interestingly, he never played a concert outside of North America. Elvis' touring was confined to the United States and Canada. It has been claimed this was due to Col. Tom Parker having entered the USA as an illegal alien in his teens, and thus Parker did not want to call attention to his immigration status.
It might not hurt to have a mention of his legacy among impersonators and such, as well as more on Elvis sightings and mentions of the Churches in his name (though they are mostly jokes), but they are still part of his legacy: Church of Jesus Christ Elvis and First Preslyterian Church of Elvis the Divine. Let he who has not sinned cast the first rhinestone... -- DanielCD 20:29, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This is an article about Elvis Presley, a man who loved women, a heterosexual man.
With due respect, David Bret has made a career out of thinly researched books containing "revelations" of celebrity sleaze. Until a reputable source prints this info, we're better off without.
I am contacting my friends at EPE and we will get this settled once and for all. They will not tolerate Elvis being called gay!
Madonna has 35 Top 10's, the last was "Die Another Day" in November 2002. And Elvis has 38 Hot 100 Top Tens, this was confirmed when Billboard published "110 Musical Milestones" in celebration of their 100th anniversary a month or so ago. MadonnaFan 17:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
http://go.to/madonna -- FAQ --- the webmaster discusses the records that Madonna, Elvis, The Beatles, etc. hold. The site is down but will be up soon... MadonnaFan 04:41, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why is ELV1S 30 #1 Hits spelled with a "1"?
A- Because that's the way BMG decided to spell it.
Jesse Garon Presley was Elvis' stillborn identical twin. Here's the link to his bio at the official site. In the interest of completeness, I added both to the category. I think its appropriate, but im not looking for a fight, i wont re-apply it if it disappears again. popefauvexxiii 11:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed this:
I don't know much about either of them, but I haven't found any source to support the theory that Johnny Hallyday is nothing but a French-language Elvis impersonator. It might be accurate to say he was strongly influenced by him, but then who wasn't? Deco 01:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I read the booklet of my "The complete 50's masters" (5 CD-box, RCA, bought 1993).
Fed investigation requested. - DePiep 14:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have many of their autographed pictures, the correct spelling is Jordanaires.
Hey, stop it with the edit-summary-challenged reverts. Before anyone else reverts any more changes, please discuss these edits here. I'm sure we can come to a solution that everyone is happy with- some people here don't want Elvis to be slandered posthumously, and others want possibly relevant biographical information to be included somehow. I'm sure we can couch the information properly so that it can be included with a grain of salt. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
But, there is plenty of evidence to prove EP was Not GAY!
There is nothing for the reader to decide about Elvis' sexuality, he was 100% heterosexual. It's a shame someone is taking the word of Dee Presley, one of the few women Elvis despised! There have been over 2,000 books written about Elvis, and only 2 (two) of them mention him being gay.....one is by Dee Presley and the other is by a plagiarist named David Bret.
Are you for real? Firstly, he didn't write that song. Secondly, you have to listen to the song and not try and take the lyrics out of context. It was written and sung for a teenage audience. It's about puppy love and nothing else. Good grief, take you're nonsensical agenda elsewhere.
What shall we do now? Despite recent claims by some authors, among them Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley, that the king may have been gay as he had an affair with homosexual actor Nick Adams, there is the opinion of many others that such accusations are only based on hearsay. I think that both opinions should be mentioned in the article. At the beginning, the said passage on the king's relationships clearly says "From the beginning of his career, Elvis was a sex symbol who sent legions of women swooning. He had a string of girlfriends, before and after he became famous, including celebrities such as Mamie Van Doren, Natalie Wood, Tuesday Weld, Cybill Shepherd and Ann-Margret." Therefore, I have now added at the end the sentence, "Despite these accusations, many other authors believe that there is still much evidence that Elvis was heterosexual." I hope that this is satisfactory and acceptable to all. ~~~~
OK guys, are we cool? -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
I have now rearranged the discussion text to make it more readable. No part of the original text is missing. ~~~~ - User: 80.141.191.142
One last thing, I would like to refocus the debate on this page slightly. Keep in mind that we are not debating here whether or not Elvis was or was not gay, but whether or not the 'rumors that he was gay are encyclopedic. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
First - terminology: "Gay" commonly refers to people who "strongly" prefer to have sex with people of the same sex. (Most often refering to male homosexuals). Since Elvis is reported to have had sufficient (in my judgement) liaisons with the opposite sex, he was unlikely to be "gay". -- The questions of how you define a person's sex and just how strong the preference must be, I'll leave to others to wrangle over - I don't think they matter here. Can we agree that the argument here is whether he could be described as a bisexual?
Second - "100% hetrosexual". Unless a man gets physically sick at the sight of another man or in any other man's presence, the idea that he is 100% of any sexual orientation is silly. We are talking about preferences, right? If we are talking about behaviour, then there may be a factual basis to base conclusions on. These "facts", if subjected to sufficient examination or corroboration, may be accepted by a rational unbiased observer or may be discredited. Proof is evidence sufficient to convince, nothing more nor less.
Third - Negative Proof. In order to "prove" that Elvis was not bisexual, you would have to prove that he never ever engaged in sex acts with another male. This is an impossible task: he was not monitored by unbiased, honest observers 24/7, birth to death.
Fourth - I assert that given his own self-interest (for all the financial, social and personal reasons you can think of in those "enlightened" times) he would reasonably be expected to keep his "preferences" a secret. Given the "show-biz" reality then and now it is likely (again IMHO) that some of his "girlfriends" were only there for the publicity (like Rock Hudson's career) or for the money ( examples are infinite). BOTH for their part and on his part. We CAN agree, I believe that he did NOT leave behind a hoarde of male lovers - else we would have heard from some of them by now. So, would it be also reasonable to agree that he preferred women? (The question, irrelevant as whether he put his left shoe on first or his right, is did he have a significant interest in men (as sexual partners)?) The answer (to repeat myself) seems to be that he preferred women. Why isn't that enough?
Fifth - His daughter is still with us (I think?) I therefore assert that it is hurtful to SPECULATE about her father. It is unkind, uncharitable, unChristian and just plain mean. It is gossip. Just nasty.
Sixth - As stated by others above, the question is what are the facts? Not assertions unsupported by any verifiable facts, but plain old facts. Not he said she said, but verifiable facts. The idea that he couldn't have had any secrets from his inner circle is (IMHO) silly - we all have secrets. The idea that his inner circle must know something is also speculation. How does any of this affect his legacy?
Seventh - There are those who do not want to blemish his "reputation" for any reason and there are those who want to throw mud, need to throw mud. Neither of these camps will EVER have proof sufficient to get them to change their mind. These two camps are talking past one another.
Eighth - ANYBODY can "conclude" that Mr. X was a "Y". Solid biographers will document the factual basis for this claim in their publications. Often, the fact that someone made a claim is treated as a fact supporting the same claim. This is circular group think. From what I read here about Bret's claim, I saw NO facts entered as evidence simply his compilation of others claims/opinions. This is poor journalism and terrible biography - I'm talking about the Wiki article not Bret's book. Either substantiate Bret's claim with facts garnered from his book, or remove the reference to it.
Ninth - PP is HOT. Yeah even at 60. Makes you wonder....
Has Elvis really had an "immeasurable" effect on world culture? What does that even mean in this context - that we can't measure it or that it's somehow off the scale? It could be "measurable" and probably be more sensible. All in all I think the article is a bit over the top. Differing opinions? Hardwick 20:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Above our ANONYMOUS contributor said: "Not a joke, but information taken from a seriously written new biography which throws new light on his career."
This is what the publisher's synopsis says about David Bret's "seriously written new biography": [2] "The truth regarding the relationship between Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis is exposed and the controversial allegations that Presley slept with his own mother, raped his wife, held wild sex and drugs parties and left a fan brain-damaged are explored."
So now, we must absolutely add to the article these allegations from this seriously written book by this esteemed biographer. Ted Wilkes 21:01, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article quotes David Bret that Colonel Tom Parker blackmailed Elvis because he was gay. However, the Award winning story by Alanna Nash, noted for its meticulous research, never mentions this nonsense that Bret "alleged" without proving any facts to back it up:
Note too, that Bret's book sold next to zero copies
and was totally ignored by any literary or serious media or professional reviewers who don't give credence to such works. Check out the website for Alanna Nash and read the accolades from major sources including Billboard Magazine that called her work a "classic of music industry reporting." In the UK, The Observer called her book "perhaps the most thoroughly researched music book ever written." -- Amazing, all this exacting research and Alanna Nash didn't learn about Elvis being blackmailed by the Colonel because he was gay!#
On August 16, 2002 Larry King Live had a show on the 25th anniversary of Presley's death that included Linda Thompson, who starting dating Presley only a few months after his separation from his wife, Priscilla Beaulieu-Presley. Thompson lived with Presley at Graceland for almost four years. On this show also was Cybill Shepherd who complained that Presley was sleeping with her in Las Vegas while he had Linda Thompson in another room on the next floor. Thompson said he was a womanizer and in the end dumped her for Ginger Alden who too immediately moved into Graceland. Also on this show was Ann-Margret who talked about what she called a "strong relationship, very intense" that lasted about a year.
As to, Davada "Dee" Stanley-Presley, this poor disgruntled soul who published "Elvis, We Love You Tender" in 1980 never mentioned him being gay etc. Back then, her book gushed about how wonderful he was and never said anything about gay relationships, or incest, but suddenly twenty five years later when she needs money, Dee stanley claims he was gay, had sex with his mother, and other ludicrous statements that no one would listen to.
Her own son, David Stanley dismissed her rantings and he appeared on Larry King Live on January 14, 2005 (Presley's 70th birthday) to honor Presley.
On the same program, was Anita Wood who was engaged to Presley and who lived for a time at Graceland until he dumped her for Priscilla Beaulieu while stationed in Germany. (His 1958 letter to Wood that states his intention to marry her was sold by Christie's Auction House in 2004.) On this Larry King program also was Patty Perry, whom King introduced as someone who: "knew Elvis for so long, she was the only woman officially, or unofficially in the Memphis Mafia. " (A fact confirmed by public records and every other member of the Memphis Mafia).
And finally on this show was Kathy Westmoreland, who also dated and fell in love with Elvis, and who also wrote a book called "Elvis and Kathy."
The list of women Presley slept with is a mile long. Dozens of books have been written by Elvis associates, friends, etc. He had a large contingent of people with him constantly and none have ever said he was gay or had a gay relationship. And none of these people today have a motive to stay quiet. On the contrary, if one of them said so they would be paid a small fortune. Not one single person, male or female, who knew Presley has ever said he was gay or even hinted such a thing until David Bret in Great Britain "alleged" it without any facts of any kind and he quoted the alcoholic Dee Presley and joined her in alleging without proof that Elvis slept with his mother, left a fan brain-damaged etc. etc. Wikipedia is not a place to be quoting haphazard allegations from such dubious sources – unless you have come to Wikipedia with an agenda.
As to our ANONYMOUS users referral to Judy Spreckels, she was a West Coast fan club president who wrote an article called "Elvis and Me" under the byline "Elvis's No.1 fan" for the February 1957 issue of Modern Screen magazine. Did Elvis Presley know actor Nick Adams, and Adams' wife and two children? He absolutely knew Nick Adams, along with several other men with whom he studied Karate while in Los Angeles. Adams was one of the many hangers-on who tried to build a friendship with the biggest star in the world - to enhance his own career. First it was James Dean thar Adams tried to be friends with then a few years later when he heard Presley was a big James Dean fan, he joined the Karate class and ingratiated himself with Presley. And, there is no proof anywhere, of any kind, that Nick Adams was gay.
Note too, that in the Elvis article, and the David Bret article, our ANONYMOUS user has inserted total falsehoods in his edits.
That alone tells you the value of this person's input and the character of someone willing to repeatedly lie in an Encyclopedia. And oh yes, our friend drove User:Hardwicke away with his lengthy fabrications and constant reinserting of his falsehoods into the Elvis article. So, I challenge ANONYMOUS to scrutinise any article I have created or edited for even one single lie or fabrication.
And no, I am not an Elvis Presley fan, only someone old enough to totally understand his contribution. But, Roy Orbison is god. Ted Wilkes 23:15, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please note that this ANONYMOUS user's only contributions to the Wikipedia are edits to
Elvis Presley,
David Bret and
Nick Adams plus contraventions to Wikipedia official policy with repeated comments placed into
Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. I have made a request for
Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism.
Ted Wilkes 20:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Note: I have found previous edits (long before I showed up) by the same ANONYMOUS user with a single mission under twenty-three different IPs. Again, all for the exact same Elvis Presley, David Bret issues with no other edits. Like they tried to do to me, this ANONYMOUS user used intimidation and relentless bullying tactics while reverting other User's edits until they drove them away. (SEE LIST AT : Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress) Ted Wilkes 23:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article does an extremely poor job of treating the roots of EP's music in black gospel and blues. That needs to be remedied. There should be a section on "Musical influences." Also, under "criticms," there needs to be specific mention of the phenomenon of cultural appropriation which is a specific phenomenon -- which explains why most African-Americans don't have much use for Elvis or his music. deeceevoice 08:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That would be fine so long as it is an honest exploration of Elvis' influences. It's not unreasonable to say that he was significantly influnced by country and blue grass as well as gospel music. It's not as simple as saying that Elvis just "stole" black music when he did nothing of the sort. That's the sort of fiction that a good article should expose. Lochdale
Adding August 27 to 'Andrew Presley married Elspeth Leg in Lonmay in 1713' [4], and adding the article to Category:Scottish-Americans -- Ben davison 02:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I AGAIN removed fabrications plus the following new derogatory text not befitting an encyclopedia from the same ANONYMOUS user:
While we should certainly note (as we do) that Presley is sometimes nicknamed "The King of Rock and Roll", it is POV to use that nickname in the text of the article. for example:
Can anyone give a reason to justify referring to Presley as "The King"? - Willmcw 22:08, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me for sticking my nose in here. Although I can see how The King has certain connotations that are not factual (that he was the best), it is a name used to refer to him, and therefore I think it's probably ok to use it in the article. It's like reffering to Ryan Giggs as 'Giggs'. It just happens to have more connotations. -- Ben davison 22:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Although maybe it's because of those very connotations that we should at least try to avoid using it. There are other, less controversial ways to refer to him, I suppose. I'm really helping here, aren't I! -- Ben davison 22:33, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, calm down. I've never used it either. And anyway, I'm clearly sitting on both sides of the fence now, so just ignore me. -- Ben davison 23:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Wikipedia has a policy that covers this situation. When contributors cannot agree on what the "facts" are, they SOURCE them:
When user's click on the name of the author who "uncovered" these "facts", they'll find an article and other links which will allow them to evaluate the veracity of the source.
We need not ensure that the Elvis Presley article is "objectively accurate" but rather that it describes the major sides of the dispute fairly. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:34, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
As an exercise in neutral, unbiased writing I will now attempt to characterize Elvis Presley's religious views. This will be difficult because I am an "interested party".
I will make every effort to avoid POV pushing, but I will describe a point of view which I happen to share:
Joe Esposito said:
Rumor has it that Elvis had a Divine Principle book in has possession during his life. I've even heard there's a copy in plain view at Graceland.
There may be a minor controversey about the number of A's in his middle name. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 04:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, the men from the Memphis Mafia must me mentioned in the article, as they played a significant part in Elvis's life. 80.141.245.142 09:48, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are more counter-criticisms then criticisms in the critism section. Also, isn't there some belief that Elvis was racist? Shouldn't that be addressed in a balanced manner? Themindset 6 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)
These are interesting questions.
Would it be possible to provide specific examples of racism? I've never come across a specific example of Elvis exhibiting any racists tendencies. He had a close friendship with Jackie Robinson and was well respected by James Brown. Before we add that he was a racist why don't we provide some concrete examples? Lochdale
Aside from published hearsay decades after he died, there is no documented evidence Presley was gay. Must this article include unsubstantiated gossip? Wyss 18:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Please see the Nick Adams Natalie Wood talk pages if you have questions about why your edits are not encyclopedic. Wyss 20:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not Elvis had, at any time in his life, a preference for homosexuality, is not relevant. Why must we pry into people's sexual behaviours if they have chosen not to speak up about it themselves. It is a fact that he did marry and fathered a daughter. Whether he met with other men does not make a man a homosexual. There is nothing sexual about a group of men or a group of women or a mixed group meeting together. Let it rest, the man is known for more important things than what he did in "the bedroom", which I don't think is any of our business. GCapp GBC 21:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. My only point is that if there is documented evidence cited by a secondary source that he was HS (or did "this" or "that") and it has some meaningful or interesting, encyclopedic relationsip to his career, I have zero problem putting it in. I don't give a flying luzz if he "was" or "wasn't". I do object to unsubstantiated, decades later tabloid market gossip being planted in these articles for the purpose of separately promoting PoV agendas. Wyss 21:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
So because Elvis had a gay friend then he himself must have been gay? That's utterly preposterous. I thank User Wyss for being more level headed than I am but you clearly have an agenda here. Lochdale
The notion that Elvis got his hairstyle from Captain Marvel seems insane. If you've ever seen pictures of black doo-wop groups, its pretty clear where Elvis got the idea..... NoahB 19:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section said that : Elvis' dance moves and much of his personal style -- his gelled hair, for example -- were clearly borrowed from African-American performers, especially Jackie Wilson. However, "The Book Of Rock Lists" argues that his music owes just as much, if not more to white Country music as it does to Black blues music.
Jackie Wilson's hair changed after he went solo in 1957 (not 56 as erroneously reported in his Wiki bio) and probably modeled after Presley who by 1957 was a superstar. (See photos of Wilson with the Dominoes 1953-1957.) The second part about the "The Book Of Rock Lists": Elvis spoke about his musical roots in his '68 Comeback Special and his influences have now been well documented here. Ted Wilkes 13:02, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed some back and forth on the middle bame, Aaron or Aron... does anyone know the story on this? Was it perhaps a change he made at some point? Is it only mis-spelled on the grave marker? Or was it a common mis-spelling throughout his life. Did EP ever comment on it? Wyss 17:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Because this article is getting long, I deleted the Section about his salary for films. These figures should be inserted into the information section on the individual film. Ted Wilkes 13:31, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I DELETED THE FOLLOWING NONSENSE: Many have since wondered why an only child – by then the sole support of his parents and grandmother – was drafted during peacetime, since his services were clearly not critical for the defense of his country. It has long been suspected that Elvis' draft notice was either politically instigated to shunt his "dangerous", "race-mixing" influence, or encouraged by his manager in order to keep the increasingly world-wise Southern lad under his thumb.
The U.S.
Selective Service Act mandated compulsory service for all American men. If you signed up, you served two years -- if you didn't and were drafted, you served three. That was why there was such an uproar when a few years later in 1967 Muhammad Ali refused to be inducted claiming "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong" while Bill Clinton and George W. Bush did their own bit to avoid either service or the Vietnam War.
Ted Wilkes 22:02, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone really dispute that many, many people believe Elvis died while pooping? That is all I'm saying, and someone keeps deleting it. I believe the mentioning of this fact is protected by NPOV, since it doesn't claim to describe what happened, but merely states a popular point of view regarding his death explained in a simple matter User:129.241.134.241
The troublesome sentence in question is "It is a popular myth that Elvis died whilst defecating on the toilet" and is mentioned in the "Death and Burial" section...well, until one of Elvis's die hard fans deletes it that is. None of them gave any reason to delete my sentence, they probably think it is offencive to the memory of their hero, yet it is worth mentioning. I mean, an article about Elvis cannot be purely written by his fans, it loses all the objectivity if it is.
- well, i'm a newbie. Sure, I can do that ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
- sure ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
- I resorted to do that when Wyss made bogus linkspam reports against me, not understanding the term. I've never added any links to any wikipedia article whatsoever. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
Since it does exist as such, I've put the urban legend in the trivia section where it belongs. The PoV tag is not needed, and should have been discussed first on this talk page. Wyss 16:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- "et tu, Brute" is in the assasination section, not some "trivia" section. And besides, you don't even mention the words "defecation" or "constipation". According to that myth, Elvis didn't HAPPEN to be on the toilet whilst already in the process of dying. he died BECAUSE of sitting in the toilet. His constipation problem made his pressure rise and his heart stopped. A reader unfamiliar with the myth will not understand what is being said there. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
REMOVED Irrelevant gossip: "It is a popular myth that he died whilst defecating on the toilet." This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip tabloid. Ted Wilkes 22:04, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Wilkes, this is an encyclopedia written with a neutral point of view. Because of this, it is quite different from other encyclopedias. A normal encyclopedia wouldn't mention the arguments of Holocaust Deniers in the Holocaust article, for instance. I'm sure claiming that the Nazis were really nice guys who did NOT murder 6 million Jews is a far more offensive thing than claiming (rightfully) that many people DO believe that Elvis died of constipation. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
OK, to the anon who keeps adding the line "He is officially the #1 singer of the rock era and remains one of the most recognisable figures in music." in the header. This sentence is inherently POV. This sentence doesn't declare what officiating body has declared him as such, and there is no "official" ranking of singers of the cork era. Your comment in the defense of the statement is "Presley IS offically the #1 act of the rock era, confirmed by Billboard's Joel Whitburn in his throughly reserched music books avalible at all good book stores.". If that's the case, then you should put (somewhere in the article, not in the header): "Billboard's Joel Whitburn delcared Presley the #1 act of the Rock era." Presto! Instant NPOV. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:38, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
So it's ok to add it anywhere in the article but not the header? so what is that all about? it's ok to give him credit for being the #1 act of the rock era, but let's not put it at the start. how bizarre. So what has anyone got to dispute this? an argument Bono is more influential. Yeah, when Bono has influenced a generation of music that has been as rich as the music that followed Elvis, then they can comment. Elvis is the biggest/most influentail/successful act ever - proven by the charts all over the world, yet we can't give him due credit. POV would be my opinion, yet this is factual information based on the music charts. Next you'll be telling me it's only my opinion Presley had over 100 top 40 hit singles.
That maybe true today, however back in the 1950s to sell the volume Presley did, you had to have influence. Music back then was much diffrent. Why do you think most of the other 1950s acts that were pap didn't appear on all-time sales lists?
btw, if people could think less of EP with what you claim is a POV post (i still contest it is nothing of the sort), then why is a simular comment sitting smug on the Beatles article?
I do not know how to sign a post, neither have I seen a warning either. If the statement wasn't encyclopaedic, then how come I have seen such statements in encyclopaedias? Not every article will say "one of" or "possibly is" when the facts show that it is for sure. To say Elvis is the #1 act based on chart peformace" is not POV when it is a fact available in the public domain, in terms of chart reference books. anon. user
Elvis was just more than selling records, as anyone who knows about music will know. However the article did state "based on record sales", so that would clear it up even if he wasn't. Also are you telling me that in the 1950s Libarance was considered equal to Elvis is terms of celebrity? Come off it.... that is not true at all. Also you go on to say he has "null" legacy as a musician or pianist, then go on to say he is remembered as a cuteral icon. If it wasn't for his musical style he wouldn't have that credibility, so therefore his musical legacy can't be nothing. The argument Liberace was hug dose not in anyway offer anything in form of an argument that precludes Presley from being called the #1 act. Elton John was the #1 act of the 1970s, would you argue "he wasn't cause The Bay City Rollers were big in the 1970s too?". 195.93.21.4 23:36, 27 July 2005
Thanks for your help. I'll like to know when Liberace was considerd "bigger than Elvis", because of his TV show. When Elvis was recording for Sun records maybe... but that would hardly take much really would it if we are honest? From 1956 on (when he joint RCA) Elvis was the #1 star as can be told from record sales, chart success, concert tours and viewing figures of his very own TV appearnces. I'm not denying Liberace wasn't a big star, of course he was, but I think it's a bit odd to claim he was bigger than Elvis from '56 onwards. Kenny Rogers had a weekly TV show once that did really well in the early to mid 1970s, but I don't think he was considerd bigger than Paul McCartney (at that time at least) . 195.93.21.4 07:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Plainly Elvis got to be "bigger than Liberace" but that wasn't my point. Funny you should mention Kenny Rogers, whom I happen know something about. I'd say that in the late 1970s in the American south Kenny Rogers was very much considered "bigger than Paul McCartney" but if that makes you blink, it shows how complex and ultimately subjective, relative and potentially misleading these sweeping statements can be. Wyss 14:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't say it was a misleading claim at all. Kenny Rogers was bigger than McCartney in the late-1970s, but i said nothing about the late 70's in the point you were replying too, I said early and mid 1970s, back then Rogers was considered nowhere near the fame of McCartney, because he wasn't as successfull then. Just like Elvis wasnt as sucessfull as Liberace untill the dawn of the "rock era".
195.93.21.4
19:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What is it that you specifically don't like about the article now? Wyss 20:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Who said I didn't like anything about the article at the present time? I'm replying to you and comments you claimed I made. However if we are only allowed to respond if we don't like something in the article then what is it you don't like about the article? 195.93.21.4 06:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Only checking :) Anyway I think we agree on the cyclical nature of celebrity (that's not a stealth dig at E btw). Wyss 14:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Why was the quote for Garth Brooks removed? I feel this quote has as much importance and relevance as that of John Lennon's, seeing as Garth was continually compared to Elvis for a number of years by certain media and when was asked about it, replied "No one will Ever touch Elvis". I ut it on the Garth Brooks article and feels it also has relevance to this one. 195.93.21.4 11:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. What was the quote? Wyss 17:13, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I said above, it was "Noone will ever touch Elvis". Also why was the remark about more people possibly being intrested in buying his singles if the single was still a major format deleted? That comment holds just as much bearing as the fact they sold little compared to singles sales in the past. If that is gonan be deleted I think the whole comment before it should, I don't see other articles belitting chart information on artists because less singles are sold today.
195.93.21.4 17:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought it was graffiti. I'll put it back in. Also, sorry I didn't read your post carefully. By the way, you don't have to, but you might want to consider registering as a user. It's free and has several benefits and advantages (including allowing editors to get to know and recognize you and thereby more helpfully work with your edits and concerns). Wyss 19:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I imagine someone thought the other edit you mentioned was pushing PoV on Elvis a bit too hard, or maybe it wasn't clear. Try it again with different wording? Wyss 19:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
A little help appreciated:
From the "related" section, I removed Blackface because it is irrelevant here and propely placed in other articles. And, Cultural appropriation because it is already referred to. Ted Wilkes 16:17, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I reinserted text removed by User:Wyss as extreme POV. Rewritten, the statements here are fact. 12:33, August 1, 2005 (UTC) Ted Wilkes
The opening of this article as re-written by Ted Wilkes is too PoV. I'm not going to revert it for the moment, so as to prepare the discussion. Elvis Presley was the single most important act in American popular music during the mid and late 1950s. However, the statements made in the article are now so sweeping as to be unsupportable. He was not the most influential entertainer in the history of music (although likely the most influential entertainer in the history of American popular music). He was not in any way responsible for the advent or success of the 45 RPM record as the wording of the article implies. He was not responsible for the emergence of rock and roll. He was certainly not responsible for the relatively generous allowances post-war children in the US received and so on. He had enormous talent and I can write about remarkable aspects of his talent which are not yet in this article. He rode the wave of these things, so to speak, with that talent, rather gloriously for a time, but he was not responsible for them.
Out of all the books published about EP, it is likely possible to find someone somewhere in print who has made some of these superlative generalisations, but for all the enormous impact Presley had, it was not as described in the article. Extraordinary assertions such as these require extraordinary citations, multiple and scholarly. I'm open to seeing them.
Sweeping statements are acceptable to describe sweeping events. It is obvious that User:Wyss could not have been a teen or pre-teen in 1956. I was. Being born in 1945, with older brothers and sisters, plus friends, (my sister was a big-time bobby-soxer and that was "cute", safe, and acceptable to parents), I lived in and therefore KNOW precisely what was before Presley and experienced what actually happened in 1956 and onwards. Girls, screaming, fainting, crying and babbling incoherently about how much they loved Elvis was not acceptable. I know how notes were passed around in class at both my junior high and my sister's high school about "Elvis" and his rock and roll, and how he was the ONLY topic of conversation in the schoolyards, something that never happened before with a musical entertainer. I know about small town USA where Presley's music soon reached. I know about parents not allowing Presley’s music and how they went to a friend's house to listen to his records or to watch him on Ed Sullivan. I know what music my older siblings had been listening to and I know the "weekly allowance" we all got in 1955 (kids always compare within the family and with friends), and how peer pressure to be "cool" brought demands (yes we demanded - my older siblings never dared) a bigger allowance because we could see with our own eyes the increasing prosperity of our parents. We went from 10¢ a week to a buck because 89¢ is what a 45rpm cost in small towns, less in big cities I learned to my dismay. We rebelled and it was resisted - even a teen shutting their door to their bedroom was unheard of disrespectful conduct. We TOLD our parents for the first time exactly what WE wanted for Christmas and it was one thing: Presley music and clothes. And, oh yes, "ducktail" haircuts were banned in my school and we defied the principal who went to the School Board -- who backed down. As to Presley being the most influential, this does not need scholarly sources to read and understand statistical facts or to read a Sears Roebuck catalog to see the change between 1955 and 1958 with the appearance of low-cost Elvis Presley guitars, clothes, and other products. The closest thing kids had at the time was Davy Crockett and Presley quickly made him a distant memory. Presley’s "black" sounding music was a big issue (among bigots) and our acceptance of it led to Chuck Berry singing side by side with "Good Ole Boy" Jerry Lee Lewis and others in a 1957 U.S. tour. The fact that a black star like Berry, whom the teenagers accepted equally, had to sleep in a different hotel, or occasionally in a car while traveling together, helped bring a questioning about segregation. Bringing African American singers into mainstream American consciousness was extremely significant, and the bigots constantly reminded us it was "nigger" music. Note the fans ages in 1957 and how they, seven years later, were the young volunteers from the North who went to the South to fight for desegregation. (Yes, my brother went South). Read how the white Mayor John Hynes of Boston found an excuse to ban rock and roll from the city after the interracial rockers Lewis, Holly, and Berry performed there together – as equals. As to his "bringing about a major shift in consumer markets," the 1956 Front Page of the Wall Street Journal article tells it all as to Presley's enormous economic impact and the shift to teen buying power. (No such writing has ever appeared since. And I read the WSJ, Barron's and the Economist, always). Look at the Billboard charts 1950 to 1955. Look at record sales, look at the dates the flood of teen and music magazines that came into existence and the creation of the Billboard Hot 100. Look at photos of Presley in 1956 then photos of those who followed – hair, clothes were all Presley copies. (see Ricky Nelson photos on his parents TV shown in 1954 then at the time of his first record. – ditto for everyone else.) Look at the date of the chart hits by ALL others – they came after Presley and their record sales, although very substantial, were only a tiny fraction of Presley’s. As to "EP created a phenomenal change in music": in 1956, it was Presley who knocked Les Baxter and his kind of music out of No.1. And by 1957, Baxter, Mitch Miller and the like were gone from the pop charts --- forever. And, we pre and early teen kids never went to a record store. But when Presley released “Hound Dog,” we were late for school so we could be first to buy the record in the morning when the store opened. (All adults, plus anyone we didn't like, were nothing but Hound Dogs and were "no friend of mine.") And the record stores, seeing us for the first time buying product started stocking everything rock and roll --- and we showed up with our newly increased spending allowance. And oh yes, we teens created a new monetary system called "an advance against my allowance" because there was no way we were waiting til Saturday if the next Presley record came out on Wednesday.
Only Bill Haley came before Presley and Haley had a great sound (on at least one record) but zero charisma with his standard stance and overweight near-middle age appearance in his plaid jacket and bow tie. The reason John Lennon (and Dylan and others) said what they did is because Presley's popularity CREATED the huge demand for rock music that swept America and a new consumer power that opened the door to the others to make a living in rock music. In the face of powerful and widespread efforts to stop him, Presley kept going, doing his thing. That in fact is what insipred me, my friends, and the rest of teenage America to stand up and speak out and for Ed Sullivan to change his tune and say he is a "good, decent, boy." Read about the Texans (Holly, Orbison, Knox), and others from all over the U.S. particularly from Presley's South, who came to Memphis and Nashville because of Presley. When he went to NYC to record for RCA, it brought Bobby Darin and others to record there with new record companies springing up. Presley's power was still so great even a few years later that Fabian, who couldn't croak a note, was picked up by a promoter from a street in Philadelphia and made a star because, as the teen magazines wrote, his looks were a cross between Elvis and Ricky Nelson. (And yes, I bought "Turn Me Loose")
Want more facts from someone who actually lived the Presley period and who rebelled against his parents when his elder siblings had never done so before? I could write volumes on what Presley created – and I was never a great Presley fan but sure am grateful he came along because he made it all possible. Read the quotes by Dylan, Springsteen, Orbison, and even forty years later by Garth Brooks. When the White House gives the President a speech, and Carter accepts to deliver it, then the President's words about one entertainer says His and not "He is one of the entertainers," reiterates a fact. President Carter said His music and his personality -- permanently changed the face of American popular culture.
And, American popular music and culture became worldwide. That is why Elvis Presley is the most influential entertainer in the history of the known universe. And, that is why this comment must be in the header section for Presley to identify exactly his place in popular music history. Ted Wilkes 14:47, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Repeat: Facts about the state of music before and after 1955 in music are here at Wikipedia and speak for themselves. Hairstyles are also here Ricky Nelson but available on the web too. All other major singers and their emersion dates are here too. And, not one of them was personally banned etc. Their sales stats are here too. We don't need to list them. And, I accept the words of John Lennon, Bob Dylan, and the others QUOTED in the article. Historians or musicologists do not express opinions on clothing sales, they use facts. The Sears Roebuck Catalog is a fact. I was part of it. Wyss, were you?
Sorry, but read what I said: The White House -- and the staff at the White House do have social historians or musicologists and any other credible source for preparing Presidential statements.
Are you saying Jimmy Carter was deliberately misleading? Politics means being vague, not precise. In fact, knowing about Carter's Christian beliefs, if anything he would never antagonize the religious right who, even in 1977 were still condemning Presley for the harm he did to America's youth. In 2005, they are still trying to get "sexual suggestiveness" off the air.
You said in the comment on your edit: "if that goes into the header, it's got to be qualified."
If President Carter mislead the public, provide proof where even one historian or musicologist contradicted his statement or one major R&R performer who disagreed with the President, or one reputable magazine who disagreed. Why would Wikipedia qualify a Presidential statement that no one has ever challenged? Ted Wilkes 16:04, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I already posted it above (the --- represent the omission of unrelated "fusing the styles of white country and black rhythm and blues" and, add to it that when a Discovery Channel public opinion poll [12] nearly thirty years later puts way Presley ahead of all other entertainers as the Greatest American (no other singer was even in the top 25) it does give some indication that Americans (based on polling theories) agreed with what the President's highly paid staff and unlimited budget for research concluded. Note that this poll was a copy of the one in Canada that is detailed at Wikipedia. Also, we can wait to give you proper time to quote a qualified historian or musicologist who disagreed with the President's statement anytime since 1977. You don't accept Lennon, Dylan, Cliff Richards, and the others? Please clarify who you think they are wrong. As to historians and musicologists and the opinions of "wise" managers/commentators, you should listen to the words of "Handle With Care" by the Traveling Wilburys and read the cover notes they placed on their first album. Ted Wilkes 16:44, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Someone who lived the experience is in fact a reliable source when they quote verifiable statistical facts and events, not opinions. (The U.S. Supreme Court has said so, repeatedly, citing exactly that.) Obtaining secondary confirmation from others who lived at the same time would be pretty easy. And, the statements you agree with by Dylan, Lennon and so on are more credible because of their birth dates and position in the music industry support the claim he was the most influential entertainer in music history.
And, (your) opinons on how the researchers and speechwriters at the White House conmduct themselves is not acceptable as a means for decision making at Wikipedia or opinionizing that Carter was a failed politician. In the United States, we accept White House statements as true until someone disproves them as we did when Nixon said "I am not a crook" and as we did not when Clinton said "I never had sexual relations with....". Parsing of words is a game, but always arises to the level of legal qualification and accepted public fact.
President Carter said: "Elvis Presley's death deprives our country of a part of itself. He was unique and irreplaceable. His music and his personality, fusing the styles of white country and black rhythm and blues, permanently changed the face of American popular culture. His following was immense and he was a symbol to people the world over, of the vitality, rebelliousness, and good humor of his country."
You may quote Carter in the opening paragraph but if so, quote with it the other confirmations from the most respected experts such as Lennon, Dylan etc. unless you are prepared to state that the opinion of Dylan and Lennon has no merit. If as they asserted: before Presley there was nothing, and we owe it all to him, or CR saying "If there was no Elvis Presley, they're would have been no Cliff Richard" etc. etc., then with the documented (Wikipedia too) statistics as to his musical success, the timeline of musical recording facts, (what musicologists use) he is the most influential and too, no other person, living or dead, has claimed any other person to be more influential or even as influential. Unless too, you are challenging the statistics and the accuracy of the Billboard Charts. Ted Wilkes 17:54, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Previously you misquoted me to make an incorrect statement ("White House") and now again with "In the United States, we accept White House statements". I never said Wikipedia. Absolute acceptance of a White House statement as fact is what keeps America as a democracy from disintegrating and why we have an impeachment process. It is fundamental to our existence. We may at time claim to interpret the President’s remarks differently but NEVER does the Media or anyone claim it to be false without proving it. If someone from Libya wishes to disagree, they can, but in the USA, Americans accept the President’s statement as absolute fact. And, Wikipedia does quote Washington, Lincoln and others. Presley was a musician, not a painter. When the President says “EP permanently changed the face of American popular culture,” it is an expression of the collective thinking of the American people expressed by its leader. As such, my quoting the President at Wikipedia is only part of what Dylan, Lennon, Brooks, Jesus Christ, and others said plus the historical records which are not sources, they are just facts. My assertion is based on this collective. Therefore, this plus my above statements as to historical statistics bearing out the statement and the collaboration of others which I have already spelled out requires no further statement from me. If you are uncertain, please reread the above. The facts in support of Presley as the most influential in the history of the universe is clearly documented. And John Lennon is talking about his own music: Rock and Roll. And, before Elvis there certainly was music, again as stated Les Baxter, Mitch Miller and oh yes, that hard rocker Patti Page!
Now that we have a consensus with other Elvis editors such as 195.93.21.99, we can move on to fixing up other sections in this article about the most influential entertainer in the history of music. Ted Wilkes 19:31, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I think I should ad what Rolling Stone magazine says about Presley:
I removed:
This "Rebel Without A Cause" reference is a fabrication or confusion with Jerry Schilling who told Larry King he (Schilling) was a big Dean and Brando fan but never said he memorized anything. It was not on Presley's list of favorite movies as detailed by Priscilla Presley in her book Elvis and Me. (See that article for films he did like.) Her only reference to Dean was in passing named together with Brando and others of the new generation as examples of some "serious" young actors that Elvis wanted to be rather than the movie roles he was stuck with. His relationship with Natalie Wood is already covered in the Relationships section.
I also removed the Criticsm section. Most of it as to Presley's roots in music is elsewhere in the article or some could be added. However, the following appears to be questionable at best as the only other Internet reference to a Helen Kolaoke is in Wikipedia clones:
Looking over the article, I think it's much improved. I especially appreciate Ted Wilkes' extensive additions (thanks!) about EP's gospel roots and relationships. Also, his work on the opening passages, although I thought they were too PoV at first, IMO with a bit of tweaking are now a helpful synopsis of the socio-economic setting into which this talented individual stepped in 1954-55.
About the phrase Elvis Presley was the most influential entertainer in the history of popular music, I think it should read American popular music, but in truth I'm ok with it so long as it continues to read popular music. I think such a summary is only slightly exaggerated and is reasonably arguable and acceptable. No (or very few) eyebrows should raise if the phrase widely acknowledged as... is kept in the header.
Just curious: after all your edits in
The Beatles how is it that you left it with numerous unsourced opinions and statements like: "Their unprecedented fame caused its own stresses and the band was already on the verge of splitting up..." - I am shocked and just do not want to believe it but, are you possibly biased against poor old Elvis? Please say never!
Ted Wilkes 15:19, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I hate to remove someone's sincere contribution but the photo quality of Image:Elvissw.jpg is just too poor for a proper presentation when User:Wyss and others get it ready for "Featured Article" candidacy. Ted Wilkes 15:31, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I removed all the external links except the one owned by the Presley Estate (It's veracity is sujbect to SEC scrutiny.) and the standard IMDb one used throughout Wikipedia. The reason is that most of these are links to fan or personal sites and are little more than advertising. There are so many of these, that admit one you must admit them all and the article could end up with a huge list. As well, competition between these external sites is fierce and I know for fact that some have information that is less than reliable. Plus, we get rid of the annoying links like the onlineline petition an ANON user has been putting in repeatedly. Of course, this is open to discussion. Ted Wilkes 18:25, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
A Wikipedia article is not a fanzine or tribute page. The line, Rolling Stone magazine's biography of him noted, "Elvis Presley is rock 'n' roll." is unencyclopedic and inappropriate for the header. Rock and roll is a genre of music, not a human being. Immediately below, the article does assert, in effect, that Presley embodied rock and roll so the RS quote is redundant too. The Billboard "#1 act of the rock era" quote is even more problematic. There are issues with the definition of rock era, and for that reason the #1 can be reasonably argued against. The latter has already been discussed here, and I have removed it. I've left the RS quote for now. Finally, any description of any person's influence in any field must be qualified somehow, for example by is widely regarded, is generally considered, even is overwhelmingly regarded and so on. Wyss 19:14, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Still do. Could you please try reading my posts more carefully? Wyss 20:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It was your declaration that we must quote musicologists or historians. Rolling Stone only, and without exception, consults, uses, pasys, employs "musicians, critics, historians and key industry figures" in arriving at all their conclusions either for their published biographies or their 100 Best stuff. As such, I repeat, that the most authoritative source in Music declaring Presley IS R&R means he is in fact the most influential. And, their bio
[13] states his influence as I previously quoted verbatim. Unless you are denying the validity of the assessments derived from the most proper sources, then please deal with facts as they exist, not your notion of some vague generality. I asm reversing you for the last time. If you disagree then take it to RFC. Thank you.
Ted Wilkes 22:05, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I'm editing according to WP policy and will likely continue to. IMHO you're slipping as many fragments of PoV creep as you can into the header and making it sound like a sales pitch for an Elvis CD collection. In effect, even the most blatant, diehard Elvis fanatic wouldn't object to EP being characterized as widely regarded as the most influential entertainer in the history of popular music. You have rarely responded to the content of my posts on this talk page and for the most part have offered your own original research. Editorial statements from Rolling Stone can be attributed, but it's not appropriate to include additional PoV spin like "the music industry's most respected magazine." I'm trying to come to a consensus with you. Wyss 23:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wysss, because I have had great respect for your dedication and ability, I will explain further: Elvis Presley is a biography about a musician. Quoting in the header the most authorative source on how and where he fits in the scheme of things in music history is not only proper, but essential. As I said, Rolling Stone is in fact the most authoritative source and you demanded a qualified source. You insist on inserting the qualifier: widely acknowledged as. By qualifying the statement about him is in fact an assertion that there are those experts who disagree with Rolling Stone. As such, according to your own words and Wiklipedia policy, if you claim that the authorative source quoted is wrong, then you are required to provide the competent source upon which you based your qualification.
Ted Wilkes 00:08, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The New York Times, and every media outlet in America refers to Rolling Stone as the "Bible" of the music industry. What are your qualifications to say: "music industry's most respected magazine" is a joke, RS is a consumer sales platform. (By the way, the writings of all persons, or businesses are in fact "a consumer sales platform.") Ted Wilkes 00:08, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
You are playing games, User:Wyss. And you know it. End of discussion until you reply satisfactorily. Ted Wilkes 00:24, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
P.S. - You should also have bothered to read above when I said : "Rolling Stone only, and without exception, consults, uses, pasys, employs "musicians, critics, historians and key industry figures" in arriving at all their conclusions either for their published biographies or their 100 Best stuff", a fact you already know. So, I repeat, you are playing word games. Ted Wilkes 00:41, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I said we'd address that after you have supported your assertion, every media outlet in America refers to Rolling Stone as the "Bible" of the music industry. Would you like to support or retract that assertion now so we can get to the next item? Wyss 00:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Wyuss, more distractions don't work. I have compromised greatly to achieve consensus. Ted Wilkes 00:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The "widely regarded" does it for me. If it makes you feel any better, I don't like the Rolling Stone reference in the header at all (if it were further down I'd be more than ok with it) but happily accept the compromise. Now I strongly suggest we step back from this header for awhile and give other editors a chance to express their input (if any). Again, I think you've added reams of helpful content to this article. I want it to be credible and believe it or not, flattering to Presley as an artist, since the historical record reflects so much that is so flattering about him. If it's presented in an encyclopedic manner with true NPoV (which I think it now is), in a supportable historical context, even more readers will come to the same conclusions and there's no need to "preach to the choir" when it comes to the King ;) Wyss 01:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss: Researching your edits over the past few days lends me to several conclusions. 1) You need to tone down your "comments", they come across as arrogant, and all-knowing. 2) You have either deleted important historical facts like transistor radios or you completely reworded something that totally and completely changed the important fact as follows:
ORIGINAL TEXT:
USER WYSS EDIT:
Preseley's fame soared to new heights towards the end of 1956, the effects of a new and powerful youth consumer market on the American economy was reported on the front page of the December 31, 1956 issue of the The Wall Street Journal.
The Wall Street Journal article was about Presley and his impact - not an article about the new youth consumer. What bothers me, is that you changed this without knowing what you are talking about and removed him from the equation. The shift in consumer spending between 1956 and 1960 was the largest in history.
And another one was your removal of the reference to WLS Radio in Chicago with the editing comment "WLS Chicago had nothing to do with EP's early airplay." In fact it did. The text talked about the end of the National Barn Dance, which came about because Presley (who brought the other rock and rollers with him as the article points out) was so dominant that it severely cut into country music venues such as WLS' Barn Dance. Presley and his elevation of Rock and Roll caused it. To carry it further, he ended the Louisian Hayride too. The article stated, in conjunction with a timeline flow, that:
You also did a similar thing re your edit comment "Sony came later, in a much wider and complex of wake of transistorized consumer technology)." This too was a removal and with an unfounded comment. Just for the record, Sony's first transistor radio went on the market in 1955 and by March of 1957 they were already producing pocket size radios. If you didn't understand the wording and sequence of events in radios, that is understandable if you weren't there.
Pointing out the impact of Presley and R&R is the elements that made him the most influential. They are extemely important to demonstrate to the newer generations who know nothing about that time and his role. (See edit re his being drafted as some mysterious event). That is what biographies are supposed to do. However, rather than willy-nilly edits and unfounded broad assertions, ask on the Talk page for an explanation or comment so others can assist you. We are, after all, here to work together. Thank you. I will fix these things up as soon as possible. Ted Wilkes 02:25, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
In this same vein, you dismissed the Whitburn / Billboard statement inserted by another Wiki User about Presley as the "#1 act of the Rock era". On this website
[14], Billboard sanctions Joel Whitburn's writings.
The most qualified collectors and assessors of historical data on rock and roll is in fact Billboard magazine. Billboard's sanctioning of Whitburn's writings makes him a quotable, qualified source for statistical record data.
Wikipedia quotes Billboard in almost all articles as they are the accepted experts in the gathering of facts.
Therefore, with Whitburn's book(s) endorsed by Billboard or when he quotes Billboard, then his comment is not trivia, it is based on the same facts that the company uses to compile the Billboard Hot 100. Therefore, the Whitburn statement that Elvis Presley was the "#1 act of the Rock era" must be appropriately allocated as part of the collection of statistcal data on sales, No.1 hits (a Billboard compilation too) and other such facts from a credible source. And, from such a source, it is not out of place in the header. Ted Wilkes 03:09, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss - Thought you might enjoy the small addition I made to the Sony article and photos and Sony book references used. My father bought us this in 1956 to use at our summer cottage up in Canada, because, most of this new post-war trend in second homes on a lake didn't get electricty until a sufficient number of serviced lots were sold and electrical hook-ups subscribed for. As such, this particular model seen here that my father bought was the 1956 box-like one (see my previous allusion to this way above). I carried it to school to listen to Presley. In 1957, I wanted the new "cigarette pack" size. No luck, the perfectly good box had to do. S'pose maybe I was right? 1956 ain't late 1950s, it was Elvis time in North America! Ted Wilkes 18:29, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
No, as I said, I toook it to school. As one of the first, I was popular with all the girls for about two days then every damn boy in school had one to listen to Elvis, and now I remember, also "Honey Don't" by Carl Perkins. Problem got worse - the next year, 1957, everyone had the pocket radio to listen to Elvis and followers (Everly's in particular) and I didn't. Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Original research? Read the Sony article and what I said above: I gave the book references from Sony for the FACTS inserted in the article. Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
By the way, you can read about the God of all music and each of his albums courtesy YT. Ted Wilkes 18:32, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Orbison was an angel for sure ;) Wyss 18:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
When you utter that name, do so with great reverence. I have every American album he ever issued, bought as originals within hours of their release. Holly too. EoC Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss: You reverted my statement in the article saying concering Sony transistor radios being sold in American in 1956 and said in your editing comment : Sony came later, in a much wider and complex of wake of transistorized consumer technology. - I provided facts to prove what I said with photos and reference sources from Sony itself. Please provide your reliable source that declared "Sony came later" so that we know Sony's book and information brochures lied and that your deletion of my work and replcement text was not your created Non-Original Work.
This isn't an answer, it is more avoidance of dealing with the issue. My edit to the Sony article is 100% statement of fact and zero personal comments. Please answer the question -- you are, after all, the one who said it with a reversion of mine. Ted Wilkes 23:02, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
You also said when deleting my text in the article: WLS Chicago had nothing to do with EP's early airplay. Please provide your verifiable source. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 22:35, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Someone's personal Website is not a reliable source. The WLS site confirms exactly what I said in the article but that you deleted!
You said above:
Your assertions (about events from almost half a century ago) is original research, which is not an acceptable citation for a Wikipedia article. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 22:35, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Not necessary, just pointing out that you frequently quote non-original research or your own "memories" or "opinions" without supporting it, even, unlike me, to the point of deleting someone else's statement of fact. Thanks for offering anyway. Ted Wilkes 23:02, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
No further replies necessary, the points raised are fully understood by all. Ted Wilkes 23:04, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Wyss! What happened to "constipation"? A lengthy article about Elvis that does not contain that word, surely can't be NPOV? Do you really want to start everything all over again? I'm sick and tired of reading about what a wonderful guy Elvis was...at least, I comfort myself with the fact that he is rumored to have had the #1 most shameful death of all rock artists.
==Personal insults== (Re: Text Removal) User Wyss: "I think Ted Wilkes must have taken it out." Not only do you insert unfounded statements into articles, you also do the same here willy nilly without bothering to take three seconds to check and make a personal attack on me with a fabricated accusation. May I remind you of the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy. Ted Wilkes 13:41, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Changing an unnecessay title that is inappropriate at Wikipedia. Ted Wilkes 13:44, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I still think you took it out, but maybe I'm wrong, anyway I said I think you did it. It wasn't a personal attack, you've removed that item in the past. I notice you still haven't quoted and cited the Wall Street Journal article as I asked, and I think you're mis-interpreting whatever information you can cite about Sony transistor radios. Please provide cites from secondary sources to support your interpretive assertions about 1950s economics and consumer products in north America, thanks. I'd also appreciate it if you would stop trying to find reasons for confrontation and accusation at almost every turn, and try to work with me on writing this article according to Wikipedia policy. Wyss 14:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
User Wyss: said "I still think you took it out,". -- You need to stop the insults, and now. It took a few seconds for me to find this but you, as I noted before, didn't even bother. This kind of conduct at Wikipedia casts serious doubt on your credibility.
-- Ted Wilkes 14:48, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
So where are the cites I asked for? Wyss 15:12, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I've repeatedly asked Ted Wilkes to supply actual quotes from the Wall Street Journal article he is using as a cite and mentioning in the article. The reporter's qualifications are interesting but need not be cited in the text of the article. I don't know why Ted Wilkes resists providing the quote. When I speculate on this topic, I think maybe he doesn't have it, or that its literal content doesn't support his assertion that Elvis Presley was in effect single-handedly (my words) responsible for the growth of the consumer youth market in 1950s north America (I suspect the article mentions Presley's prominent role as one of those who profited from it but doesn't credit him with causing it). Anyway I don't know why Ted Wilkes won't cite his sources.
We have a similar issue re Sony and transistor radios. Although Ted Wilkes has posted much original research to this talk page in the form of recollections and interpretations of those memories, he has yet to cite a secondary source on Sony's transistor radios that even mentions Presley's name.
Regarding the radio station WLS in Chicago, Ted Wilkes seems to want an assertion in the article that WLS switched over to rock and roll/pop in 1960 because of Elvis Presley. I have been unable to find any secondary source discussing their format change that even mentions Elvis Presley, and after continued requests Ted Wilkes has yet to provide one either.
I'm willing to work with Ted Wilkes on this, but his remaining assertions seem to invert cause and effect and in the absence of secondary sources which plainly support his thesis, I continue to edit the article according to my good-faith interpretation of WP policy, especially Wikipedia:No original research. Wyss 17:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I support EQuintan's condensation of the article and have also moved the Rolling Stone quotes to the legacy section, since they are blatant PoV and not suitable for the header. Wyss 20:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss - You are aware that eliciting someone else to do your edit to avoid being blocked from editing after reaching the three revert rule limit is a violation of Wikipedia policy. Massive deletions of text are not acceptable without explanations. If User:EQuilan wishes to remove any section he may bring his reasons to the discussion page.
Ted Wilkes 22:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I was as surprised as you to see EQuilan show up. I did not solicit his/her participation, but I do strongly support the condensation. If you have any questions about why some of your edits have not been enyclopedic, please re-read this talk page. Wyss 22:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Given the back and forth we're seeing involving four editors over the last few hours, I've now put together (or reconstructed) a version of the longer article without the unsupported original research interpretations, which preserves the minor chronological updates made during that time. Wyss 01:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The unsupported items are:
These factors, and the editor's enthusiastic and lengthy narratives of his own personal recollections of the era on this talk page, have convinced me that the above assertions are original interpretations based on the editor's own original research and are thus not acceptable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article.
There are a couple of other questionable items, the inclusion of a strongly PoV Rolling Stone magazine quote in the header (which I have moved to the legacy section) and a reference to Elvis-themed gift-giving in 1956, which alone doesn't seem to be much of a problem but which has been used as a fulcrum for the unsupported items listed above.
Meanwhile, the same editor has contributed large amounts of helpful, supportable content to this article which I strongly endorse and would like to see kept.
Wyss
01:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The editor could have sent me the WSJ text via private email if he was worried about copyright issues. I count over three dozen recent private emails from him in my inbox.
Wyss
02:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I've placed a disputed tag on the article while we sort this out. I do need to see the text he's referring to and the WLS intepretation seems to be unsupported too. I didn't see any reference to Sony transistor radios in the current revision of the article but if it's there, or re-appears, that also needs to be supported in some confirmable way. I think the article is very helpful aside from these unqualified and broad socio-economic interpretations. Wyss 15:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss deleted the following text as soon as it was inserted by me:
I have reinstated it. Ted Wilkes 16:03, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop with your repeated word games and stop the misleading referrals. I will not allow you to continue with your pettiness. State ACCURATELY and precisely what you dispute here. Then, and only, then, will I gladly answer as I have done before. Ted Wilkes 16:06, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Here, for the third or fourth time, are the disputed items:
1 The editor has written: Presley, and the enormous nationwide demand for rock and roll music he created, severely impacted the traditional country music industry. By 1960, after three straight years of sharply declining audiences, important longtime country radio broadcasts such as the Louisiana Hayride came to an end and major stations such as WLS in Chicago, Illinois, who had broadcast the "National Barn Dance" since 1925, dropped the show to switch its format to Top 40 Rock and Roll Music.
The problem: The editor has provided no secondary source to support this threaded assertion. It can be supported that Presley created a demand for Elvis Presley records. It can be supported that some country music broadcasts suffered declining audiences, but the editor has not provided support that EP was singularly responsible for this as the sentence implies. It can be supported that WLS switched its format to rock and roll/pop in 1960. However, the editor has not provided support that they did this because of Elvis Presley. No WLS history page I've seen even mentions EP, they didn't switch formats until he'd been in the army for two years and the editor has offered no citation of a secondary source that asserts WLS changed formats because of EP. Similarly, his direct cause-and-effect assertion that EP caused the cancellation of a few country music broadcasts years later is unsupported.
1)The PBS documentary on music roots called Presley QUOTE "an American music giant of the 20th century who singlehandedly changed the course of music and culture in the mid-1950s. (This fits with what Rollling Stone magaine says when they said: EP IS R&R)
And in support of all those experts like PBS, Rolling Stone, the President of the United States, as stated in the article, also said Elvis Presley "permanently changed the face of American popular culture.
Just for the record, your "disputed" item borders on meaningless. There are thousands of books, films, documentaries etc. on this. -- Ted Wilkes 17:36, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
2 In 1956 America... Teens also bought the new Sony transistor radios in huge numbers, helping to propel the fledgling company into a leadership role in electronics.
The problem: This is unsupported. Teenagers were not buying Sony transistor radios in huge numbers in 1956. Tens of thousands of transistor radios had been sold by Sony in the US by 1957, but these are not "huge" numbers in relation to the American econoy at that time (for example, Elvis Presley sold millions of records during the period, as a result of his recordings being heard on tube driven radios, and virtually all of these were played on tube record players). Sony's mega unit sales didn't begin until the very early 1960s (when Elvis was already gone and back from the army) but no matter, it is the editor's responsibility to cite his assertions as made in the article.
FIRST: YOU STATED AS FACT: "Teenagers were not buying Sony transistor radios in huge numbers in 1956." Please cite your sources. First (above) you said "Sony came later" and dismissed the reference altogethger but thebn changed your tune by the absolute facts supplied by me. And, my sources are already cited by me (and this is the second time I've told you) in the Sony article book references for books by the Sony company publication and the book by Morita.
3 By the end of 1956, Presley's impact on the American economy had reached such significance that the effects of his records sales spurring a new and powerful youth consumer market was reported by Louis Kraar in a December 6, 1956 article in the highly influential business and financial newspaper The Wall Street Journal...
The problem: The editor asserts that Elvis Presley's record sales spurred a "new and powerful youth consumer market" and cites a WSJ article, but has refused to provide the actual text supporting this assertion, even by private email. I can support a counter assertion that the emerging youth markets were created by socio-economic forces that had little or nothing to do with EP (talented though he was, culturally influential though he was).
Summary: By threading together a few inocuous remarks about 1950s tecnology and economics in an article about EP, the editor has achieved a strongly implied and wholly unsupported assertion that Elvis Presley was singularly responible for: Sony transistor radios being sold in the millions ("huge numbers") in 1956-1957... WLS changing its format in 1960... and in effect, the post war affluence of american teenagers.
In an early edit, he had asserted that they had demanded or otherwise forced their parents to give them higher allowances for the specific purpose of buying Elvis Presley records, however, he's been slightly more careful since this dispute began.
He has provided only lengthy personal recollections and his own personal interpretations of his memories, which is original research and which has been repeatedly pointed out to him. He has also asserted that I am too young to understand what happened then (my paraphrase- he knows the year of my birth). He has for the most part ignored my remarks about these aspects of the problem. Wyss 17:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
ONCE AGAIN: YOU PLAY WITH WORDS. THIS STATEMENT BY YOU IS FALSE. YOUR ARGUMENT, THEREFORE, IS MEANINGLESS.
Thank you. With all these rather minute items now fully answered, I will now remove your dispute notice. Thank you. -- Ted Wilkes 17:58, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
BTW - You still have not said why you immediately deleted my important insertion about the W.C. Handy award and the Blues Foundation. An apology might be a nice gesture. A simple, non-wordy one. Ted Wilkes 18:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry you're having so much trouble understanding the difference between secondary sources and original research.
And the apology for the Handy Award improper deletion? Did I miss it?
Ted Wilkes 18:47, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
There is more work to be done here on his death and illness and reported hospitalizations from prescription drug abuse c.1974-75. Then, when done here, we can move to get rid of the POV in The Beatles. Ted Wilkes 18:47, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
As to couduct, you the one User:Onefortyone had to seek Mediation because of the same way you conduct yourself here as you did on other articles?. This is the end with your repeated WORD GAME that goes on and on without any substance or willingness to state your case. Each time I give you an indisputable source, you start going in circles. You did this elsewhere, repeatedly. I will not have you abuse my generosity and willingness to go out of my way to help. Ted Wilkes 20:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
User Wyss inserted this text:
You're confused. This is a reliable source (and hey, at least I'm citing one). The other you're referring to was widely regarded as made-up gossip. Anyway it's published on the web, credible, linked to directly from WLS' corporate history button etc. You can squirm as much as you like, but the cite complies with WP policy. Wyss 20:44, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, the DJ's site isn't encyclopedia material but I aoppreciate yourv effort. Ted Wilkes 20:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also: The website User:Wyss linked too is not the offical Sony site but it says: that the 1957 model: "took the world by storm." Most businesses would only dream to have such a "lacklustre" performance. The site also says that Sony sold 114,536 in its first intoduction period. That is amazing in a nonexistent market with what was then a high priced product from a country whose products were stuill then the butt of jokes. It seems if this unauthorized site is correct, then it certainly did take the world by storm. Ted Wilkes 20:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I suspect the editor would drool all over them if they agreed with his original research. Sadly, his original research is unsupported (I tried to find cites to support him days ago). The editor has provided no citations supporting his PoV, yet I've cited credible sources supporting my concerns about the viability of his original research. Wyss 21:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you help out on the Rock and Roll article? It needs work. Or, The Beatles, you must be concerned about the POV in it? Ted Wilkes 21:48, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
This is abssolutely a Wikipedia:No personal attacks violation:
I gave a full explanation here on the talk page, AS ALWAYS. Ted Wilkes 21:52, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I said re SONY: The website User:Wyss linked too is not the offical Sony site.
User Wyss replied and agreed with me that it wasn't an acceptable siource, hence I deleted it:
Thank you. I will not engage in further discussions with someone who calls me a liar and engages in personal attacks. Ted Wilkes 22:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Ok. Maybe the editor has a point. If he thought I was agreeing with him that one of my citations wasn't credible, perhaps he does have a serious perceptual or reading comprehension problem. I'm sure reasonable readers will understand why I thought he was lying. Now that I've seen his response, maybe he wasn't, so I take it back. However, given his evident lack of reading comprehension, which I think is caused only by his extreme emotional attachment to this specific dispute, I think he should disengage from this article for several days, ponder the problems his original research has caused, and think about how he might work in a more cooperative way to stabilize this article and keep it free of original research. Wyss 22:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Mr Wilkes, you'd better suggest some sort of compromise, because I intend to revert any edits by you to the last Wyss version. I'm sure you remember my persistence about the "constipation" thing, so your versions will not stay there very long.
Like I've said thousands of time, I'm sick and tired of crazy Elvis fanatics who claim he was the reason why people started buying this or doing that etc. To me personally he's a guy who performed songs written by other people in a music genre invented by an entirely different ethnic group (African Americans) - and who is rumored to have had the #1 most ridiculous death of all celebrities (yet another #1 hit for Mr. Presley :-) ).
So, Mr Wilkes, what is your offer gonna be? ( 129.241.134.241 03:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC))
Despite providing reams of facts to repute the unfounded assertions of User:Wyss, she ignored and repeatedly inserted her incorrect statements on WLS radio etc. After launching a personal attack against me, calling me a liar, User:Wyss took advantage of my refusal to continue and once again reinserted the following text:
Ted Wilkes is misrepresenting the history of this discussion (although he may believe he's being sincere). His assertions re WLS are unsupported and his mention of WLS in this article is misleading. I've supported my edits with citations, he's only offered original research (which attributes cause and effect in unsupported ways). Wyss 01:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Response (3 parts):
3) In addition to creating her own version of what was said, the website [28] that User:Wyss refers to belongs to a former employee. Even though it confirms what I wrote: “Faced with dwindling audiences, WLS reluctantly closed down the live version of the National Barn Dance,“ it is not a qualified source for an encyclopedia. Only the station's owners are qualified to state why they made certain business decisions.
I think it's a reliable source. Announcers for major radio stations work under constant market pressures and are often familiar with the economic and demographic contexts of their work. The cite says WLS changed its format because of shifting demographics and doesn't mention anything about EP. I'd rather leave any mention of WLS out of the article altogether: When they switched formats, Elvis was already finishing up his service in the army etc. Wyss 01:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Like the WLS radio issue above, despite providing reams of facts to repute the unfounded assertions of User:Wyss, she ignored and repeatedly inserted her incorrect statements on the Wall Street Journal reference. After violating the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy, calling me a liar, User:Wyss took advantage of my refusal to continue and once again reinserted the following text:
[30] [31] [32] yields discussions on higher levels of disposable income along with widely shifting demographic and global social trends. Only one briefly mentions Presley, noting that the singer's success alerted some marketers to the untapped potential of a youth consumer market already in existence. -"
Response:
The key to what I said is "spurring", I did not say "created". Presley's huge and unprecedented record sales spurred the market – that is an indisputable fundamental of economics. Note that PBS said Presley "singlehandedly changed the course of music and culture in the mid-1950s" and the
President of the United States in an offical press release from the White House said Elvis Presley "permanently changed the face of American popular culture." Spending habits are an integral part of culture.
What User Wyss added to the article says: "A sampling of scholarly and otherwise qualified studies on the topic". These 4 references are not about Elvis Presley and Rock and Roll. One is from Harvard University, it is not about, and does not mention, Presley or his Rock and Roll industry. It is an article about American
consumerism and belongs in the
Economy of the United States article.
The other 3 references are by non-Americans and in 2 of them the word "United States" doesn’t appear anywhere and they make no mention of, and have nothing to do with, Presley or his Rock and Roll. They are all generalities about baby boomers etc. that is irrelvant to the Presley article. However, I does mention Presley but User:Wyss again distorts facts and to create her own meaning and mislead readers at Wikipedia when she stated (above):
In the article, User:Wyss inserted her opinion: "Elvis Presley was not a catalyst for the increased affluence and independence of youth in post-war America."
In fact, that article actually confirms what I wrote about Presley. Here is verbatim what the article [33] actually said: "The phenomenal success of Elvis Presley in 1956 convinced many doubters of the financial opportunities existing in the youth market."
While I give great credence to the Wall Street Journal financial newspaper and one of its most important business writers and Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting winner, I cannot give unequivocal acceptance to a "paper" placed on the Internet that express the opinions of one professor from the Department of History, University of Auckland, New Zealand about United States economics particularly because the Professor's paper is without benefit of other scholarly review and its date unknown meaning its theories could have since been updated many times since by other scholars. I note that it ends in the 1970s. However, in the spirit of cooperation and respecting a Professor and his university, I have inserted this quote in its true and accurate form into the article.
As seen on this page and in other Talk pages where User:Wyss has been involved, she uses voluminous word games devoid of substance and refuses to deal with facts while forcing others to provide proofs of the same issue over and over. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 14:24, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
If we're talking about word counts and games, I think Ted Wilkes has it backwards but whatever, I'm here to work on the article and solve issues related to its content. Meanwhile I'm getting happier with the WSJ paragraph. The sweeping assertions seem to have diminished and it's starting to be heavy on quotes and objective remarks directly related to EP's career. Wyss 01:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed unfounded text inserted today for at least the thirtieth time by User:Onefortyone (Formerly know as ANON 80.141. etc.)
USER:Onefortyone take note:
RESPONSE: No, you have not cited credible sources. You have cited hearsay and two publications by authors with questionable agendas and a less than stellar publishing history. Several members of the Memphis Maphia wrote highly critical books about Elvis. It is highly unlikely that they would have covered up his sexuality. You're basing your claims on fourth-rate sources and you are engagin in what I can only describe as a character assasination. Lochdale
Having removed the word "spurring" at first, I put it back in after trimming some of the praise given to the WSJ (its reputation is widely known and recognized). I'm not crazy about the word "spurring", but I think it's reasonable to use in the para, which now sticks to attributed quotes and which I now find both interesting and helpful. Wyss 15:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Except, you put it back in the wrong place, thereby changing the meaning. Ted Wilkes 15:46, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Try reading it again. If you still don't like it, I'll keep after it until you do. Wyss 15:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
You deleted important information that you yourself repeatedy demands. That is, proper sources and references as to that person's qualifuications. You removed the supporting credibity of the writer. And, you removed "In this vein" - In fact, the good Professor you cited was writing about the WSJ article and others (print media). Ted Wilkes 15:56, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Ted Wilkes, please take a deep breath and calm down. The WSJ has a great reputation, one of the best. The "Pulitzer prize winning" phrase is still there. The para needn't overdo its praise for the WSJ. What mattered to me was that there be attributed quotes and no original interpretation of them. Now... what specifically doesn't work for you? Please be a little patient here, ok? Wyss 16:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Your games to portray me as first "angry" (yesterday) and now to "Calm down", don't work. Validating the credentials of a source quoted is your demand. Note too, quoting the good Professor in italics is what you did with Elaine Bundy on Nick Adams. I have gone far out of my way be be courteous and answer ALL your demands but you continue over and over with the same disruptive tactics that have no substance. Ted Wilkes 16:18, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Look, I think you've gotten so sensitive about this, you're seeing things that aren't there. The italics are style considerations, put 'em in quotes if you like, I don't care. I'm restoring the paragraph the way you had it (if you haven't already). If you want readers to think along the lines of, "hmm, they certainly are praising the WSJ to the max here, I wonder what sort of PoV they're trying to sell me...", ok. I think you're skimming my remarks on this talk page and not reading them btw, maybe I'm wrong but that's the feeling I get. Wyss 16:22, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
As you are well aware, ALL my edits, without exception, are founded on verifiable facts and I never promote anything. No person reading this will think Wikipedia promotes the WSJ. Because I am qualified to talk about business manners, and can provide qualified sources, I am going to expand on the WSJ article to detail in dollar terms relative to GDP then and now just how large Presley's impact was. It is the Professor YOU quoted that called it " The phenomenal success of Elvis Presley in 1956 convinced many doubters of the financial opportunities existing in the youth market."
Ted Wilkes 16:33, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
You're not even responding to my remarks. Wyss 17:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss repeatedly deleted the following important and relevant information I had inserted:
This is important, factual, and very relevant to the article and I have now reinserted it in a modified form:
User:Wyss again deleted this important and relevant information:
02:18, August 9, 2005 Wyss (→An American phenomenon - teens were not buying Sony transistors in volume in 56 or 57, this is wholly unsupported and misleading)
User:Wyss said (above on this page):
1) "I think you're mis-interpreting whatever information you can cite about Sony transistor radios."
2) User:Wyss also said that I had "provided no citations that mention both Sony transistor radios and EP, and I can't find any."
3) User:Wyss also said "Tens of thousands of transistor radios had been sold by Sony in the US by 1957, but these are not "huge" numbers in relation to the American econoy at that time."
3) User:Wyss also asserted: "Sony's mega unit sales didn't begin until the very early 1960s (when Elvis was already gone and back from the army)."
Please see
Northwestern University
[37] writing with referencing to The Portable Radio in American Life by University of Arizona Professor Michael Brian Schiffer, Ph.D. (The University of Arizona Press, 1991) that says amongst much other things on this subject:
1) The rapid growth in sales was not fueled by the consumers who had bought the earlier generation of high-fidelity radio consoles. Sony's march to dominance in consumer electronics was, instead, driven by a uniquely American phenomenon: rock ‘n’ roll.
2) Schiffer writes (in his book: The Portable Radio in American Life.) "Rock and roll was not yet a household word, much less a big business. Largely because of Elvis, that would soon change."
3) Sales of portable radios in 1958 exceeded 5 million. Two years later, that figure had doubled.
Next, see the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame permanent exhibit: "Listen to the Music: evolution of audio technology"
[38] and read [
http://www.rockandrollreport.com/the_rock_and_roll_report/2005/04/two_new_exhibit.html] that says:
There are many more references from Kent State University and the like so I don't understand why User:Wyss said (above): I can't find any. Also, here at the Wikipedia article transistor radio that I had linked in the Presley article, is an external link to the website [39] of Dr. Steven Reyer, a Professor in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Department at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. It gives a great history by an Engineer on the first transistor portable made by Regency Division of Industrial Development Engineering Associates of Indianapolis and how they sold 100,000 units in 1954 then closed their doors, handing over the huge new industry to Japan, led by Sony.
Thank you. Ted Wilkes 11:46, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, they went broke and Sony proceeded to struggle with it for five years before finally cracking the market. None of these quotes supports your assertion that teens were buying them in "huge numbers" in 56 or 57. Nor do they support your inference that Presley had any causal effect. He is described as a symptom, not a creator or catalyst. Your interpretation is original research, your assertion is wholly unsupported by the very quotes you cite. Wyss 12:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Second response:
Further, the exact quote I gave User:Wyss above that "Sales of portable radios in 1958 exceeded 5 million" comes from the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois which is one of the foremost journalism schools in the USA. Their attribution of Elvis and early Rock and Roll to Sony transistor radios is clear and precise and they quote The Portable Radio in American Life by University of Arizona Professor Dr. Michael Brian Schiffer, Ph.D. (The University of Arizona Press, 1991). As well, Professor Steven E. Schoenherr, Department of History, University of San Diego wrote: "History of Radio: Extensive chronology of evolution of radio technology” [42]. Here, Professor Steven E. Schoenherr staes:
To User:Wyss - If you continue deleting my quoted facts from authenticated scholars and insert the writings of a "fan website" in violation of official Wikipedia:Policy, then I will take this matter to Wikipedia:Requests for comment.
Thank you. Ted Wilkes 00:04, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Expanations are required by ANON 129.241.134.241 for its deletions: their revert to an old version by Wyss deleted changes she had already accepted and my last input as stated immediately above.: 21:56, August 8, 2005 129.241.134.241 (Reverted to the last WYSS version)
I am reverting this. Ted Wilkes 02:05, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Explanation: Your sentence is awfully presumptious. No advances in technology should be attributed to a mere pop star. What's next - there would be no Napster without Offspring ? Elvis and advances in technology are unrelated. You might just as well say that "families also started buying TV sets so that their kids could watch their favourite hero LIVE, thus helping the TV industry".
When you insert a sentence like that, the reader might think that Elvis should have credit for people buying a new gadget. The only industry (outside of music industry) Elvis might have helped, is the pharmaseutical one - the use of constipation medicine probably skyrocketed! After all, no one really wants to die like that. Give the guy the Darwin's award.
And also: Judging from the posts above, I don't see that you and Wyss have come to an agreement. Why don't you ask Wyss to implement the changes you both have mutually agreed to? Then I won't have to revert anything! ( 129.241.134.241 05:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
Hopefully Ted Wilkes are at least approaching agreement. I strongly agree that advances in technology can't be attributed to EP. Any reference to Sony transistor radios in this article will mislead casual readers into thinking he had something to do with it. Anyway the sales numbers I've seen and cited are very low for 56, still only in the 100,000 range by late 57, and they didn't really pick up for Sony until Elvis had left for the army. I strongly discourage any mention of transistor radios in the article, EP's fame was transmitted and heard through tube technology and transistors would do their work of miniaturization with or without him. Wyss 06:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. I mean, Elvis was the Ricky Martin of the 50s, with pubescent girls being his target audience. Naturally, the best medium would be television, not radio. BTW, I remember something about JFK beating Nixon in a televised debate, whereas most of the RADIO listeners judged Nixon to be the winner. So: radio is a menium for the ugly. ( 129.241.134.241 08:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
Not exactly. Elvis sold hundreds of millions more records than Ricky Martin and had vastly greater cultural impact. Elvis did bring rockabilly and rock and roll to white girls and through them to mainstream western culture and beyond. So far as the visual side, he was frequently seen on television and in movies before he went into the army (and of course the movies continued when he came back, though some might say those were mostly dreadful). The purpose of this article is neither to bash nor canonize EP, but to present both the documented record and published commentary in helpful, encyclopedic form. Wyss 08:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, so far as radio being a medium for the ugly, there is a funny/sad story someone once told me, about a singer named Christopher Cross from the late 70s who had some top forty hits which did great with teenaged girls... until they saw him on TV with his unfortunate "ax murderer" image (according to the story I heard). Plainly, EP did not have this problem in 1956. Wyss 08:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
LOL. BTW, my daily rhythm is out of whack. I'm actually going to bed at 4 PM now....Well, you have one revert left. Use it with care! I'll wake up at around midnight and take over the watch. God damn it, nothing makes life more worth while than fighting hords of brainwashed fanatics....Well, take care! (
129.241.134.241
14:10, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Onefortyone (including as ANON 80.141.etc.) has several variations of his claim about Dee Presley (the ex-wife of Vernon Presley who were separated in 1974 and divorced in 1977):
In the article on Nick Adams, this User inserted the same thing about Dee Presley and came up with yet another version at Talk:Nick Adams:
Seeing as this User reverted others more than FORTY times when they tried to revert his nonsense, perhaps User:Onefortyone needs to explain himself as he has reinserted this repeatedly again today. Ted Wilkes 02:32, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
BTW, this sound like a great idea - if Mr. Wilkes continue to insert his ridiculous claims about Sony transistors, maybe I'll start inserting claims about Elvis being gay. Watch out, Teddy Wilkes!( 129.241.134.241 05:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Ted Wilkes has now reverted this article 4 times in the last 24 hours. See for yourselves:
11:35 9th of August
00:10 10th of August
01:07 10th of August
01:30 10th of August
Mr. Wilkes is asked to respect Wikipedia policy from now on ( 129.241.134.241 01:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Ted Wilkes has once again reverted the article 4 times in the past 24 hours. This is his second violation. See for yourselves.
00:10 10th of August
01:07 10th of August
01:30 10th of August
08:50 10th of August
It seems to me that you are no big Elvis fan, since you keep inserting stuff about him allegedly being gay. It seems to me that the majority opinion on this site is against that allegation, and will be removed very quickly.
However, if you tone it down a bit and put it in the "trivia" as an "unsupported claim", your claim may very well stay there untouched.
Furthermore, I would be happy to ally myself with you in order to to fight our common enemy User:Ted Wilkes, who keeps inserting ridiculous claims that people started buying a new Sony gadget because of Elvis. He is also one the first people who will remove your stuff.
Of course, you claim has to be altered in order to be approved by User:Wyss, who seems very dedicated to this article, yet is closer to our side than Ted Wilkes' Elvis-Is-A-Wonderful-Guy coalition.
Join us, Onefortyone! After all, an edit war with 3 parties involved seems kind of stupid.
What say you? ( 129.241.134.241 03:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
But this article concerns as many as 4 people, all of who are eager reverters at the Elvis article. ( 129.241.134.241 06:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
( 129.241.134.241 10:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Wikipedia precedent for dealing with this issue:
User:129.241.134.241, you have made comments on this page that violate Wikipedia:Civility and referring to me as "fight our common enemy" is a violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Your statement on this page and offer at User talk:Onefortyone to form an alliance to "fight our common enemy" and to prevent others from editing and avoiding the Wikipedia:Three revert rule for themselves and their ally, contravenes Wikipedia:Policy. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Precedents#Civility / disruption / reasonableness and see if you can then work in a spirit of cooperation by providing reasons for your edit reversions so that consensus, based on facts, can be achieved. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 10:07, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
And I certainly never suggested anything about preventing anyone else but you ( who, after all, have repeatedly broken the 3 revert rule ) from editing this article. ( 129.241.134.241 10:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Please immediately refrain from personal attacks:
Please read: Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Consequences that includes: "Abusive edit summaries are particularly ill-regarded." Thank you. Ted Wilkes 11:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
You still haven't explained or apologized for your repeated violations of Wikipedia policy ( the 3 revert rule ). ( 129.241.134.241 11:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
RESPONSE TO:
User:129.241.134.241 - Your edits have been reverted in accordance with Wikipedia official poilcy. See
Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Remedies that includes "If you are personally attacked, you may remove the attacks."
Please observe Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Thank you. I will not participate in such conduct. Ted Wilkes 12:00, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
::An earlier version of the article cited this page. It says: "Except where otherwise noted, this history of transistor radios is derived from The Portable Radio in American Life, by Michael Brian Schiffer (The University of Arizona Press, 1991)." Schiffer is an anthropologist, described here. Cheap copies of this book are available. -- Hoary 15:54, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Note to User:Ted Wilkes, I have restored Hoary's original comment, which you altered [46]. In the future, if you wish to remark on someone's post, add your comments below it. Changing user comments as you did is a violation of Wikipedia policy and if you continue doing this you could be blocked again. Wyss 15:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Response to
User:Wyss – User:Hoary was quoting me (An earlier version of the article cited) and he must have accidentally forgotten to c&p some of the text. You appear to be accusing User:Hoary of deliberately downplaying the credentials of Dr. Michael Brian Schiffer,
Ph.D. which I must say, I most certainly don't think he did at all. If User:Hoary disagreed with my correcting of a quote attributed to me, he undoubtedly would have reverted me and stated so. However, I hardly think he would be doing something deceitful as you appear to suggest; after all he posted the link to the
Minnesota State University brief biographical information on Dr. Schiffer and I only helped his thoughtful link with the rest of Dr. Schiffer's title as the University of Arizona’s Director of the Laboratory of Traditional Technology.
User:Wyss, I'm sure you and other readers might also want to know that beyond the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University, Dr. Schiffer's book is one of the most referred to sources on the matter by scholars, technicians, and others on the internet and was recommended to me personally by Dr. Steven Reyer, a Professor at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. User:Hoary went out of his way to be accommodative and posted a link where used copies of Dr. Schiffer's book can be purchased cheap. The 259 page edition, even in paperback, [47] is still quite expensive at $27.95.
As noted, you deleted the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University and their Dr. Schiffer references/links in the article and inserted material in their place from the website of a radio fan with a General Certificate of Education, which you labeled as a qualified encyclopedic source.
I'll wait until you and your partner User:129.241.134.241 are done with the Elvis Presley article before I check it. Ted Wilkes 18:02, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Please don't surreptitiously change other users' comments on talk pages. If you do, you could be blocked again. Wyss 18:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I believe the latest statement about portable radios in the American phenomenon section is now reasonable and supportable. I still don't much like the adjective "huge", because the syntax implies these numbers were "huge" in 55 and 56 but I'm nitpicking a bit there since beginning and ending sales figures are given for the entire period through 1958 etc. Wyss 12:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The statement "people started to buy Sony transistors" is supportable, but so is "United Kingdom banned heroin in 1956". What has that to do with Elvis Presley?
Maybe it would be possible to say "the market for portable radios was boosted by the popularity of rock 'n' roll music, of which Presley was the most notable representative" ? If you put it like that, then it is rock 'n' roll that is credited, not just Elvis. ( 129.241.134.241 12:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
But then again, why does it have to be mentioned in this particular article, why not the
Rock n roll article? The reader might get the wrong impression that HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR ELVIS, the Sony transistor radios would have sold far, far less than 5 million copies. Can someone craft a sentence that avoids this pitfall? (
129.241.134.241
12:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Ok, I've restored the reference without the word "huge." In truth, I like it as it is now and think it's helpful. Wyss 13:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I added the words "in order to listen to rock 'n' roll music". That way, the main purpose was to listen to all kinds of loud, rebellious, parent-provoking music, not necessarily Elvis Presley.
I agree with your argument that the reader is informed about transistor radios in general. If I'm ever on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" and the question is "in which decade did the portable transistor radios become available" I'll answer "the fifties".
But there will never be a question such as "Which famous singer was responcible for selling 5,000,000 transistor radios?"
Anyway, I hope the issue is resolved now.
( 129.241.134.241 13:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
you guys are nerds. Just listen to white and nerdy the coolest song evr and itll say how peeps who edit wikipedia r nerds. thats what u are. im not trying to be mean or anything, us cool people <3 nerds! I am just pointing out the ovious before it gets into bad hands. for example gary oodoocles hands
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I humbly suggest you mention Elvis fascination with Martial Arts, how he was one of the first westerners to receive a blackbelt, how he did demonstrations on stage, etc.
what about the Jordanaires? (sp?) [sp see section)
Presley's importance to American and world culture are such that this article deserves a serious rewrite. If someone will do it, that would be great....DW
P.S. Note I changed his middle name on the opening line to the way it is spelled on his birth certificate.
The Martial Arts info is important, I'll see if I can find enough specifics to make an attempt.
It's really important to some joker on here to pretend Elvis is the gay son of a Jewish couple.... wouldn't be surprised if it's the author of one of the trash/loid books. Folks are always trying to make a buck inventing something new about Elvis, it's easier than accomplishing anything worthwhile on their own.
Which are you, David Bret or his publisher? He has written some of the most discredited, inaccurate bios in the industry and this is just another of his throwaway, tabloid, invent-for-cash pieces of trash. This book is not considered a credible Elvis work regarding Elvis' career or his personal life and I believe you already know that. Further, it is completely inappropriate to use Wikipedia for the placement of product advertisements, particularly in the aggressive manner in which you persist in monitoring and pursuing the promotion of Bret.
I removed completely the "gay" reference. In this day and age, much trash is written and it is easy to do because a dead person cannot be slandered by law. {Actually since Elvis is a copyrighted trademark owned by EPE I think there is a way to rectify this outragous insistance about Elvis being gay. He was NOT, and EPE is looking into this right now.} As such, authors of limited skills like David Bret, immune from lawsuits, use any form of sensationalism to sell books. In the case of Presley, he provided zero proof of any homosexual relationship. His book and the claim of a gay Elvis has been totally dismissed by all but a few with an agenda. No credible media organization gave his book any validity of any nature. To add to Wikipedia this unfounded claim from such a source, belittles Wikipedia and does great harm to its credibility. NightCrawler 17:02, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I don't think that the material from the David Bret biography should be deleted, but I would like to see it corroborated. ffirehorse 23:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Isn't there anything exciting in Duisburg for you do besides trying to ruin a dead man's reputation?
Elvis was nonconfrontational and that's why he never stood up to Colonel P. Bret and Dee Presley are wrong. Period.
Elvis was very much aware of the fact that Priscilla Presley was under age at the beginning of their relationship, and he was reticent to engage in a sexual relationship with her while she was under age. As their relationship grew more serious, Elvis refrained from having sex with her because he wanted to marry a virgin.
I'm 100% straight, yet am not constantly having sex. I better watch out, when I die I might suddenly become gay. Mind you, there won't be as much money to make out of me as they're would be Elvis Presley. 195.93.21.4 02:18, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
1) "the demand for transistor radios exploded so much so that Sony went from a small Japanese telecommunications company making radios to a giant global conglomerate"
Uuuuuh ! What about this? Is it all thank to Elvis that Sony becam what it is now?? If not (and I'm pretty sure it's not), this information has no place here.
2) The word "constipation" isn't mentioned even once in this article. After all, it is a popular myth that Elvis died because of this lifestyle-related problem whilst on the crapper. I see a real problem with the neutrality of this article: it is mostly written by hardcore Elvis fans - people who probably think he changed their lives to the better and so forth. But neutral point of view knows no boundaries, and unpopular facts about their wonderful hero deserve mentioning, no matter how offencive they are to them.
I love Elvis's music, but I don't know much about his international impact. The thing is that the section isn't quite complete, so I was wondering if there's someone who knows a great deal about Elvis Presley's international influence. Then you can expand on information on Elvis's influence. If there's somebody who's a big Elvis fan, please let me know. Marcus2 13:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Elvis had more Top 10 hits in the UK than in the US, and was popular all over the world. Interestingly, he never played a concert outside of North America. Elvis' touring was confined to the United States and Canada. It has been claimed this was due to Col. Tom Parker having entered the USA as an illegal alien in his teens, and thus Parker did not want to call attention to his immigration status.
It might not hurt to have a mention of his legacy among impersonators and such, as well as more on Elvis sightings and mentions of the Churches in his name (though they are mostly jokes), but they are still part of his legacy: Church of Jesus Christ Elvis and First Preslyterian Church of Elvis the Divine. Let he who has not sinned cast the first rhinestone... -- DanielCD 20:29, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This is an article about Elvis Presley, a man who loved women, a heterosexual man.
With due respect, David Bret has made a career out of thinly researched books containing "revelations" of celebrity sleaze. Until a reputable source prints this info, we're better off without.
I am contacting my friends at EPE and we will get this settled once and for all. They will not tolerate Elvis being called gay!
Madonna has 35 Top 10's, the last was "Die Another Day" in November 2002. And Elvis has 38 Hot 100 Top Tens, this was confirmed when Billboard published "110 Musical Milestones" in celebration of their 100th anniversary a month or so ago. MadonnaFan 17:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
http://go.to/madonna -- FAQ --- the webmaster discusses the records that Madonna, Elvis, The Beatles, etc. hold. The site is down but will be up soon... MadonnaFan 04:41, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why is ELV1S 30 #1 Hits spelled with a "1"?
A- Because that's the way BMG decided to spell it.
Jesse Garon Presley was Elvis' stillborn identical twin. Here's the link to his bio at the official site. In the interest of completeness, I added both to the category. I think its appropriate, but im not looking for a fight, i wont re-apply it if it disappears again. popefauvexxiii 11:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed this:
I don't know much about either of them, but I haven't found any source to support the theory that Johnny Hallyday is nothing but a French-language Elvis impersonator. It might be accurate to say he was strongly influenced by him, but then who wasn't? Deco 01:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I read the booklet of my "The complete 50's masters" (5 CD-box, RCA, bought 1993).
Fed investigation requested. - DePiep 14:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have many of their autographed pictures, the correct spelling is Jordanaires.
Hey, stop it with the edit-summary-challenged reverts. Before anyone else reverts any more changes, please discuss these edits here. I'm sure we can come to a solution that everyone is happy with- some people here don't want Elvis to be slandered posthumously, and others want possibly relevant biographical information to be included somehow. I'm sure we can couch the information properly so that it can be included with a grain of salt. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
But, there is plenty of evidence to prove EP was Not GAY!
There is nothing for the reader to decide about Elvis' sexuality, he was 100% heterosexual. It's a shame someone is taking the word of Dee Presley, one of the few women Elvis despised! There have been over 2,000 books written about Elvis, and only 2 (two) of them mention him being gay.....one is by Dee Presley and the other is by a plagiarist named David Bret.
Are you for real? Firstly, he didn't write that song. Secondly, you have to listen to the song and not try and take the lyrics out of context. It was written and sung for a teenage audience. It's about puppy love and nothing else. Good grief, take you're nonsensical agenda elsewhere.
What shall we do now? Despite recent claims by some authors, among them Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley, that the king may have been gay as he had an affair with homosexual actor Nick Adams, there is the opinion of many others that such accusations are only based on hearsay. I think that both opinions should be mentioned in the article. At the beginning, the said passage on the king's relationships clearly says "From the beginning of his career, Elvis was a sex symbol who sent legions of women swooning. He had a string of girlfriends, before and after he became famous, including celebrities such as Mamie Van Doren, Natalie Wood, Tuesday Weld, Cybill Shepherd and Ann-Margret." Therefore, I have now added at the end the sentence, "Despite these accusations, many other authors believe that there is still much evidence that Elvis was heterosexual." I hope that this is satisfactory and acceptable to all. ~~~~
OK guys, are we cool? -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
I have now rearranged the discussion text to make it more readable. No part of the original text is missing. ~~~~ - User: 80.141.191.142
One last thing, I would like to refocus the debate on this page slightly. Keep in mind that we are not debating here whether or not Elvis was or was not gay, but whether or not the 'rumors that he was gay are encyclopedic. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
First - terminology: "Gay" commonly refers to people who "strongly" prefer to have sex with people of the same sex. (Most often refering to male homosexuals). Since Elvis is reported to have had sufficient (in my judgement) liaisons with the opposite sex, he was unlikely to be "gay". -- The questions of how you define a person's sex and just how strong the preference must be, I'll leave to others to wrangle over - I don't think they matter here. Can we agree that the argument here is whether he could be described as a bisexual?
Second - "100% hetrosexual". Unless a man gets physically sick at the sight of another man or in any other man's presence, the idea that he is 100% of any sexual orientation is silly. We are talking about preferences, right? If we are talking about behaviour, then there may be a factual basis to base conclusions on. These "facts", if subjected to sufficient examination or corroboration, may be accepted by a rational unbiased observer or may be discredited. Proof is evidence sufficient to convince, nothing more nor less.
Third - Negative Proof. In order to "prove" that Elvis was not bisexual, you would have to prove that he never ever engaged in sex acts with another male. This is an impossible task: he was not monitored by unbiased, honest observers 24/7, birth to death.
Fourth - I assert that given his own self-interest (for all the financial, social and personal reasons you can think of in those "enlightened" times) he would reasonably be expected to keep his "preferences" a secret. Given the "show-biz" reality then and now it is likely (again IMHO) that some of his "girlfriends" were only there for the publicity (like Rock Hudson's career) or for the money ( examples are infinite). BOTH for their part and on his part. We CAN agree, I believe that he did NOT leave behind a hoarde of male lovers - else we would have heard from some of them by now. So, would it be also reasonable to agree that he preferred women? (The question, irrelevant as whether he put his left shoe on first or his right, is did he have a significant interest in men (as sexual partners)?) The answer (to repeat myself) seems to be that he preferred women. Why isn't that enough?
Fifth - His daughter is still with us (I think?) I therefore assert that it is hurtful to SPECULATE about her father. It is unkind, uncharitable, unChristian and just plain mean. It is gossip. Just nasty.
Sixth - As stated by others above, the question is what are the facts? Not assertions unsupported by any verifiable facts, but plain old facts. Not he said she said, but verifiable facts. The idea that he couldn't have had any secrets from his inner circle is (IMHO) silly - we all have secrets. The idea that his inner circle must know something is also speculation. How does any of this affect his legacy?
Seventh - There are those who do not want to blemish his "reputation" for any reason and there are those who want to throw mud, need to throw mud. Neither of these camps will EVER have proof sufficient to get them to change their mind. These two camps are talking past one another.
Eighth - ANYBODY can "conclude" that Mr. X was a "Y". Solid biographers will document the factual basis for this claim in their publications. Often, the fact that someone made a claim is treated as a fact supporting the same claim. This is circular group think. From what I read here about Bret's claim, I saw NO facts entered as evidence simply his compilation of others claims/opinions. This is poor journalism and terrible biography - I'm talking about the Wiki article not Bret's book. Either substantiate Bret's claim with facts garnered from his book, or remove the reference to it.
Ninth - PP is HOT. Yeah even at 60. Makes you wonder....
Has Elvis really had an "immeasurable" effect on world culture? What does that even mean in this context - that we can't measure it or that it's somehow off the scale? It could be "measurable" and probably be more sensible. All in all I think the article is a bit over the top. Differing opinions? Hardwick 20:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Above our ANONYMOUS contributor said: "Not a joke, but information taken from a seriously written new biography which throws new light on his career."
This is what the publisher's synopsis says about David Bret's "seriously written new biography": [2] "The truth regarding the relationship between Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis is exposed and the controversial allegations that Presley slept with his own mother, raped his wife, held wild sex and drugs parties and left a fan brain-damaged are explored."
So now, we must absolutely add to the article these allegations from this seriously written book by this esteemed biographer. Ted Wilkes 21:01, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article quotes David Bret that Colonel Tom Parker blackmailed Elvis because he was gay. However, the Award winning story by Alanna Nash, noted for its meticulous research, never mentions this nonsense that Bret "alleged" without proving any facts to back it up:
Note too, that Bret's book sold next to zero copies
and was totally ignored by any literary or serious media or professional reviewers who don't give credence to such works. Check out the website for Alanna Nash and read the accolades from major sources including Billboard Magazine that called her work a "classic of music industry reporting." In the UK, The Observer called her book "perhaps the most thoroughly researched music book ever written." -- Amazing, all this exacting research and Alanna Nash didn't learn about Elvis being blackmailed by the Colonel because he was gay!#
On August 16, 2002 Larry King Live had a show on the 25th anniversary of Presley's death that included Linda Thompson, who starting dating Presley only a few months after his separation from his wife, Priscilla Beaulieu-Presley. Thompson lived with Presley at Graceland for almost four years. On this show also was Cybill Shepherd who complained that Presley was sleeping with her in Las Vegas while he had Linda Thompson in another room on the next floor. Thompson said he was a womanizer and in the end dumped her for Ginger Alden who too immediately moved into Graceland. Also on this show was Ann-Margret who talked about what she called a "strong relationship, very intense" that lasted about a year.
As to, Davada "Dee" Stanley-Presley, this poor disgruntled soul who published "Elvis, We Love You Tender" in 1980 never mentioned him being gay etc. Back then, her book gushed about how wonderful he was and never said anything about gay relationships, or incest, but suddenly twenty five years later when she needs money, Dee stanley claims he was gay, had sex with his mother, and other ludicrous statements that no one would listen to.
Her own son, David Stanley dismissed her rantings and he appeared on Larry King Live on January 14, 2005 (Presley's 70th birthday) to honor Presley.
On the same program, was Anita Wood who was engaged to Presley and who lived for a time at Graceland until he dumped her for Priscilla Beaulieu while stationed in Germany. (His 1958 letter to Wood that states his intention to marry her was sold by Christie's Auction House in 2004.) On this Larry King program also was Patty Perry, whom King introduced as someone who: "knew Elvis for so long, she was the only woman officially, or unofficially in the Memphis Mafia. " (A fact confirmed by public records and every other member of the Memphis Mafia).
And finally on this show was Kathy Westmoreland, who also dated and fell in love with Elvis, and who also wrote a book called "Elvis and Kathy."
The list of women Presley slept with is a mile long. Dozens of books have been written by Elvis associates, friends, etc. He had a large contingent of people with him constantly and none have ever said he was gay or had a gay relationship. And none of these people today have a motive to stay quiet. On the contrary, if one of them said so they would be paid a small fortune. Not one single person, male or female, who knew Presley has ever said he was gay or even hinted such a thing until David Bret in Great Britain "alleged" it without any facts of any kind and he quoted the alcoholic Dee Presley and joined her in alleging without proof that Elvis slept with his mother, left a fan brain-damaged etc. etc. Wikipedia is not a place to be quoting haphazard allegations from such dubious sources – unless you have come to Wikipedia with an agenda.
As to our ANONYMOUS users referral to Judy Spreckels, she was a West Coast fan club president who wrote an article called "Elvis and Me" under the byline "Elvis's No.1 fan" for the February 1957 issue of Modern Screen magazine. Did Elvis Presley know actor Nick Adams, and Adams' wife and two children? He absolutely knew Nick Adams, along with several other men with whom he studied Karate while in Los Angeles. Adams was one of the many hangers-on who tried to build a friendship with the biggest star in the world - to enhance his own career. First it was James Dean thar Adams tried to be friends with then a few years later when he heard Presley was a big James Dean fan, he joined the Karate class and ingratiated himself with Presley. And, there is no proof anywhere, of any kind, that Nick Adams was gay.
Note too, that in the Elvis article, and the David Bret article, our ANONYMOUS user has inserted total falsehoods in his edits.
That alone tells you the value of this person's input and the character of someone willing to repeatedly lie in an Encyclopedia. And oh yes, our friend drove User:Hardwicke away with his lengthy fabrications and constant reinserting of his falsehoods into the Elvis article. So, I challenge ANONYMOUS to scrutinise any article I have created or edited for even one single lie or fabrication.
And no, I am not an Elvis Presley fan, only someone old enough to totally understand his contribution. But, Roy Orbison is god. Ted Wilkes 23:15, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please note that this ANONYMOUS user's only contributions to the Wikipedia are edits to
Elvis Presley,
David Bret and
Nick Adams plus contraventions to Wikipedia official policy with repeated comments placed into
Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. I have made a request for
Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism.
Ted Wilkes 20:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Note: I have found previous edits (long before I showed up) by the same ANONYMOUS user with a single mission under twenty-three different IPs. Again, all for the exact same Elvis Presley, David Bret issues with no other edits. Like they tried to do to me, this ANONYMOUS user used intimidation and relentless bullying tactics while reverting other User's edits until they drove them away. (SEE LIST AT : Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress) Ted Wilkes 23:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article does an extremely poor job of treating the roots of EP's music in black gospel and blues. That needs to be remedied. There should be a section on "Musical influences." Also, under "criticms," there needs to be specific mention of the phenomenon of cultural appropriation which is a specific phenomenon -- which explains why most African-Americans don't have much use for Elvis or his music. deeceevoice 08:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That would be fine so long as it is an honest exploration of Elvis' influences. It's not unreasonable to say that he was significantly influnced by country and blue grass as well as gospel music. It's not as simple as saying that Elvis just "stole" black music when he did nothing of the sort. That's the sort of fiction that a good article should expose. Lochdale
Adding August 27 to 'Andrew Presley married Elspeth Leg in Lonmay in 1713' [4], and adding the article to Category:Scottish-Americans -- Ben davison 02:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I AGAIN removed fabrications plus the following new derogatory text not befitting an encyclopedia from the same ANONYMOUS user:
While we should certainly note (as we do) that Presley is sometimes nicknamed "The King of Rock and Roll", it is POV to use that nickname in the text of the article. for example:
Can anyone give a reason to justify referring to Presley as "The King"? - Willmcw 22:08, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me for sticking my nose in here. Although I can see how The King has certain connotations that are not factual (that he was the best), it is a name used to refer to him, and therefore I think it's probably ok to use it in the article. It's like reffering to Ryan Giggs as 'Giggs'. It just happens to have more connotations. -- Ben davison 22:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Although maybe it's because of those very connotations that we should at least try to avoid using it. There are other, less controversial ways to refer to him, I suppose. I'm really helping here, aren't I! -- Ben davison 22:33, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ok, calm down. I've never used it either. And anyway, I'm clearly sitting on both sides of the fence now, so just ignore me. -- Ben davison 23:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Wikipedia has a policy that covers this situation. When contributors cannot agree on what the "facts" are, they SOURCE them:
When user's click on the name of the author who "uncovered" these "facts", they'll find an article and other links which will allow them to evaluate the veracity of the source.
We need not ensure that the Elvis Presley article is "objectively accurate" but rather that it describes the major sides of the dispute fairly. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:34, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
As an exercise in neutral, unbiased writing I will now attempt to characterize Elvis Presley's religious views. This will be difficult because I am an "interested party".
I will make every effort to avoid POV pushing, but I will describe a point of view which I happen to share:
Joe Esposito said:
Rumor has it that Elvis had a Divine Principle book in has possession during his life. I've even heard there's a copy in plain view at Graceland.
There may be a minor controversey about the number of A's in his middle name. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 04:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion, the men from the Memphis Mafia must me mentioned in the article, as they played a significant part in Elvis's life. 80.141.245.142 09:48, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are more counter-criticisms then criticisms in the critism section. Also, isn't there some belief that Elvis was racist? Shouldn't that be addressed in a balanced manner? Themindset 6 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)
These are interesting questions.
Would it be possible to provide specific examples of racism? I've never come across a specific example of Elvis exhibiting any racists tendencies. He had a close friendship with Jackie Robinson and was well respected by James Brown. Before we add that he was a racist why don't we provide some concrete examples? Lochdale
Aside from published hearsay decades after he died, there is no documented evidence Presley was gay. Must this article include unsubstantiated gossip? Wyss 18:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Please see the Nick Adams Natalie Wood talk pages if you have questions about why your edits are not encyclopedic. Wyss 20:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not Elvis had, at any time in his life, a preference for homosexuality, is not relevant. Why must we pry into people's sexual behaviours if they have chosen not to speak up about it themselves. It is a fact that he did marry and fathered a daughter. Whether he met with other men does not make a man a homosexual. There is nothing sexual about a group of men or a group of women or a mixed group meeting together. Let it rest, the man is known for more important things than what he did in "the bedroom", which I don't think is any of our business. GCapp GBC 21:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. My only point is that if there is documented evidence cited by a secondary source that he was HS (or did "this" or "that") and it has some meaningful or interesting, encyclopedic relationsip to his career, I have zero problem putting it in. I don't give a flying luzz if he "was" or "wasn't". I do object to unsubstantiated, decades later tabloid market gossip being planted in these articles for the purpose of separately promoting PoV agendas. Wyss 21:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
So because Elvis had a gay friend then he himself must have been gay? That's utterly preposterous. I thank User Wyss for being more level headed than I am but you clearly have an agenda here. Lochdale
The notion that Elvis got his hairstyle from Captain Marvel seems insane. If you've ever seen pictures of black doo-wop groups, its pretty clear where Elvis got the idea..... NoahB 19:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section said that : Elvis' dance moves and much of his personal style -- his gelled hair, for example -- were clearly borrowed from African-American performers, especially Jackie Wilson. However, "The Book Of Rock Lists" argues that his music owes just as much, if not more to white Country music as it does to Black blues music.
Jackie Wilson's hair changed after he went solo in 1957 (not 56 as erroneously reported in his Wiki bio) and probably modeled after Presley who by 1957 was a superstar. (See photos of Wilson with the Dominoes 1953-1957.) The second part about the "The Book Of Rock Lists": Elvis spoke about his musical roots in his '68 Comeback Special and his influences have now been well documented here. Ted Wilkes 13:02, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed some back and forth on the middle bame, Aaron or Aron... does anyone know the story on this? Was it perhaps a change he made at some point? Is it only mis-spelled on the grave marker? Or was it a common mis-spelling throughout his life. Did EP ever comment on it? Wyss 17:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Because this article is getting long, I deleted the Section about his salary for films. These figures should be inserted into the information section on the individual film. Ted Wilkes 13:31, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I DELETED THE FOLLOWING NONSENSE: Many have since wondered why an only child – by then the sole support of his parents and grandmother – was drafted during peacetime, since his services were clearly not critical for the defense of his country. It has long been suspected that Elvis' draft notice was either politically instigated to shunt his "dangerous", "race-mixing" influence, or encouraged by his manager in order to keep the increasingly world-wise Southern lad under his thumb.
The U.S.
Selective Service Act mandated compulsory service for all American men. If you signed up, you served two years -- if you didn't and were drafted, you served three. That was why there was such an uproar when a few years later in 1967 Muhammad Ali refused to be inducted claiming "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong" while Bill Clinton and George W. Bush did their own bit to avoid either service or the Vietnam War.
Ted Wilkes 22:02, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone really dispute that many, many people believe Elvis died while pooping? That is all I'm saying, and someone keeps deleting it. I believe the mentioning of this fact is protected by NPOV, since it doesn't claim to describe what happened, but merely states a popular point of view regarding his death explained in a simple matter User:129.241.134.241
The troublesome sentence in question is "It is a popular myth that Elvis died whilst defecating on the toilet" and is mentioned in the "Death and Burial" section...well, until one of Elvis's die hard fans deletes it that is. None of them gave any reason to delete my sentence, they probably think it is offencive to the memory of their hero, yet it is worth mentioning. I mean, an article about Elvis cannot be purely written by his fans, it loses all the objectivity if it is.
- well, i'm a newbie. Sure, I can do that ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
- sure ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
- I resorted to do that when Wyss made bogus linkspam reports against me, not understanding the term. I've never added any links to any wikipedia article whatsoever. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
Since it does exist as such, I've put the urban legend in the trivia section where it belongs. The PoV tag is not needed, and should have been discussed first on this talk page. Wyss 16:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- "et tu, Brute" is in the assasination section, not some "trivia" section. And besides, you don't even mention the words "defecation" or "constipation". According to that myth, Elvis didn't HAPPEN to be on the toilet whilst already in the process of dying. he died BECAUSE of sitting in the toilet. His constipation problem made his pressure rise and his heart stopped. A reader unfamiliar with the myth will not understand what is being said there. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
REMOVED Irrelevant gossip: "It is a popular myth that he died whilst defecating on the toilet." This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip tabloid. Ted Wilkes 22:04, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Wilkes, this is an encyclopedia written with a neutral point of view. Because of this, it is quite different from other encyclopedias. A normal encyclopedia wouldn't mention the arguments of Holocaust Deniers in the Holocaust article, for instance. I'm sure claiming that the Nazis were really nice guys who did NOT murder 6 million Jews is a far more offensive thing than claiming (rightfully) that many people DO believe that Elvis died of constipation. ( 129.241.134.241 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC))
OK, to the anon who keeps adding the line "He is officially the #1 singer of the rock era and remains one of the most recognisable figures in music." in the header. This sentence is inherently POV. This sentence doesn't declare what officiating body has declared him as such, and there is no "official" ranking of singers of the cork era. Your comment in the defense of the statement is "Presley IS offically the #1 act of the rock era, confirmed by Billboard's Joel Whitburn in his throughly reserched music books avalible at all good book stores.". If that's the case, then you should put (somewhere in the article, not in the header): "Billboard's Joel Whitburn delcared Presley the #1 act of the Rock era." Presto! Instant NPOV. -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:38, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
So it's ok to add it anywhere in the article but not the header? so what is that all about? it's ok to give him credit for being the #1 act of the rock era, but let's not put it at the start. how bizarre. So what has anyone got to dispute this? an argument Bono is more influential. Yeah, when Bono has influenced a generation of music that has been as rich as the music that followed Elvis, then they can comment. Elvis is the biggest/most influentail/successful act ever - proven by the charts all over the world, yet we can't give him due credit. POV would be my opinion, yet this is factual information based on the music charts. Next you'll be telling me it's only my opinion Presley had over 100 top 40 hit singles.
That maybe true today, however back in the 1950s to sell the volume Presley did, you had to have influence. Music back then was much diffrent. Why do you think most of the other 1950s acts that were pap didn't appear on all-time sales lists?
btw, if people could think less of EP with what you claim is a POV post (i still contest it is nothing of the sort), then why is a simular comment sitting smug on the Beatles article?
I do not know how to sign a post, neither have I seen a warning either. If the statement wasn't encyclopaedic, then how come I have seen such statements in encyclopaedias? Not every article will say "one of" or "possibly is" when the facts show that it is for sure. To say Elvis is the #1 act based on chart peformace" is not POV when it is a fact available in the public domain, in terms of chart reference books. anon. user
Elvis was just more than selling records, as anyone who knows about music will know. However the article did state "based on record sales", so that would clear it up even if he wasn't. Also are you telling me that in the 1950s Libarance was considered equal to Elvis is terms of celebrity? Come off it.... that is not true at all. Also you go on to say he has "null" legacy as a musician or pianist, then go on to say he is remembered as a cuteral icon. If it wasn't for his musical style he wouldn't have that credibility, so therefore his musical legacy can't be nothing. The argument Liberace was hug dose not in anyway offer anything in form of an argument that precludes Presley from being called the #1 act. Elton John was the #1 act of the 1970s, would you argue "he wasn't cause The Bay City Rollers were big in the 1970s too?". 195.93.21.4 23:36, 27 July 2005
Thanks for your help. I'll like to know when Liberace was considerd "bigger than Elvis", because of his TV show. When Elvis was recording for Sun records maybe... but that would hardly take much really would it if we are honest? From 1956 on (when he joint RCA) Elvis was the #1 star as can be told from record sales, chart success, concert tours and viewing figures of his very own TV appearnces. I'm not denying Liberace wasn't a big star, of course he was, but I think it's a bit odd to claim he was bigger than Elvis from '56 onwards. Kenny Rogers had a weekly TV show once that did really well in the early to mid 1970s, but I don't think he was considerd bigger than Paul McCartney (at that time at least) . 195.93.21.4 07:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Plainly Elvis got to be "bigger than Liberace" but that wasn't my point. Funny you should mention Kenny Rogers, whom I happen know something about. I'd say that in the late 1970s in the American south Kenny Rogers was very much considered "bigger than Paul McCartney" but if that makes you blink, it shows how complex and ultimately subjective, relative and potentially misleading these sweeping statements can be. Wyss 14:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't say it was a misleading claim at all. Kenny Rogers was bigger than McCartney in the late-1970s, but i said nothing about the late 70's in the point you were replying too, I said early and mid 1970s, back then Rogers was considered nowhere near the fame of McCartney, because he wasn't as successfull then. Just like Elvis wasnt as sucessfull as Liberace untill the dawn of the "rock era".
195.93.21.4
19:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What is it that you specifically don't like about the article now? Wyss 20:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Who said I didn't like anything about the article at the present time? I'm replying to you and comments you claimed I made. However if we are only allowed to respond if we don't like something in the article then what is it you don't like about the article? 195.93.21.4 06:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Only checking :) Anyway I think we agree on the cyclical nature of celebrity (that's not a stealth dig at E btw). Wyss 14:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Why was the quote for Garth Brooks removed? I feel this quote has as much importance and relevance as that of John Lennon's, seeing as Garth was continually compared to Elvis for a number of years by certain media and when was asked about it, replied "No one will Ever touch Elvis". I ut it on the Garth Brooks article and feels it also has relevance to this one. 195.93.21.4 11:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. What was the quote? Wyss 17:13, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I said above, it was "Noone will ever touch Elvis". Also why was the remark about more people possibly being intrested in buying his singles if the single was still a major format deleted? That comment holds just as much bearing as the fact they sold little compared to singles sales in the past. If that is gonan be deleted I think the whole comment before it should, I don't see other articles belitting chart information on artists because less singles are sold today.
195.93.21.4 17:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought it was graffiti. I'll put it back in. Also, sorry I didn't read your post carefully. By the way, you don't have to, but you might want to consider registering as a user. It's free and has several benefits and advantages (including allowing editors to get to know and recognize you and thereby more helpfully work with your edits and concerns). Wyss 19:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I imagine someone thought the other edit you mentioned was pushing PoV on Elvis a bit too hard, or maybe it wasn't clear. Try it again with different wording? Wyss 19:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
A little help appreciated:
From the "related" section, I removed Blackface because it is irrelevant here and propely placed in other articles. And, Cultural appropriation because it is already referred to. Ted Wilkes 16:17, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I reinserted text removed by User:Wyss as extreme POV. Rewritten, the statements here are fact. 12:33, August 1, 2005 (UTC) Ted Wilkes
The opening of this article as re-written by Ted Wilkes is too PoV. I'm not going to revert it for the moment, so as to prepare the discussion. Elvis Presley was the single most important act in American popular music during the mid and late 1950s. However, the statements made in the article are now so sweeping as to be unsupportable. He was not the most influential entertainer in the history of music (although likely the most influential entertainer in the history of American popular music). He was not in any way responsible for the advent or success of the 45 RPM record as the wording of the article implies. He was not responsible for the emergence of rock and roll. He was certainly not responsible for the relatively generous allowances post-war children in the US received and so on. He had enormous talent and I can write about remarkable aspects of his talent which are not yet in this article. He rode the wave of these things, so to speak, with that talent, rather gloriously for a time, but he was not responsible for them.
Out of all the books published about EP, it is likely possible to find someone somewhere in print who has made some of these superlative generalisations, but for all the enormous impact Presley had, it was not as described in the article. Extraordinary assertions such as these require extraordinary citations, multiple and scholarly. I'm open to seeing them.
Sweeping statements are acceptable to describe sweeping events. It is obvious that User:Wyss could not have been a teen or pre-teen in 1956. I was. Being born in 1945, with older brothers and sisters, plus friends, (my sister was a big-time bobby-soxer and that was "cute", safe, and acceptable to parents), I lived in and therefore KNOW precisely what was before Presley and experienced what actually happened in 1956 and onwards. Girls, screaming, fainting, crying and babbling incoherently about how much they loved Elvis was not acceptable. I know how notes were passed around in class at both my junior high and my sister's high school about "Elvis" and his rock and roll, and how he was the ONLY topic of conversation in the schoolyards, something that never happened before with a musical entertainer. I know about small town USA where Presley's music soon reached. I know about parents not allowing Presley’s music and how they went to a friend's house to listen to his records or to watch him on Ed Sullivan. I know what music my older siblings had been listening to and I know the "weekly allowance" we all got in 1955 (kids always compare within the family and with friends), and how peer pressure to be "cool" brought demands (yes we demanded - my older siblings never dared) a bigger allowance because we could see with our own eyes the increasing prosperity of our parents. We went from 10¢ a week to a buck because 89¢ is what a 45rpm cost in small towns, less in big cities I learned to my dismay. We rebelled and it was resisted - even a teen shutting their door to their bedroom was unheard of disrespectful conduct. We TOLD our parents for the first time exactly what WE wanted for Christmas and it was one thing: Presley music and clothes. And, oh yes, "ducktail" haircuts were banned in my school and we defied the principal who went to the School Board -- who backed down. As to Presley being the most influential, this does not need scholarly sources to read and understand statistical facts or to read a Sears Roebuck catalog to see the change between 1955 and 1958 with the appearance of low-cost Elvis Presley guitars, clothes, and other products. The closest thing kids had at the time was Davy Crockett and Presley quickly made him a distant memory. Presley’s "black" sounding music was a big issue (among bigots) and our acceptance of it led to Chuck Berry singing side by side with "Good Ole Boy" Jerry Lee Lewis and others in a 1957 U.S. tour. The fact that a black star like Berry, whom the teenagers accepted equally, had to sleep in a different hotel, or occasionally in a car while traveling together, helped bring a questioning about segregation. Bringing African American singers into mainstream American consciousness was extremely significant, and the bigots constantly reminded us it was "nigger" music. Note the fans ages in 1957 and how they, seven years later, were the young volunteers from the North who went to the South to fight for desegregation. (Yes, my brother went South). Read how the white Mayor John Hynes of Boston found an excuse to ban rock and roll from the city after the interracial rockers Lewis, Holly, and Berry performed there together – as equals. As to his "bringing about a major shift in consumer markets," the 1956 Front Page of the Wall Street Journal article tells it all as to Presley's enormous economic impact and the shift to teen buying power. (No such writing has ever appeared since. And I read the WSJ, Barron's and the Economist, always). Look at the Billboard charts 1950 to 1955. Look at record sales, look at the dates the flood of teen and music magazines that came into existence and the creation of the Billboard Hot 100. Look at photos of Presley in 1956 then photos of those who followed – hair, clothes were all Presley copies. (see Ricky Nelson photos on his parents TV shown in 1954 then at the time of his first record. – ditto for everyone else.) Look at the date of the chart hits by ALL others – they came after Presley and their record sales, although very substantial, were only a tiny fraction of Presley’s. As to "EP created a phenomenal change in music": in 1956, it was Presley who knocked Les Baxter and his kind of music out of No.1. And by 1957, Baxter, Mitch Miller and the like were gone from the pop charts --- forever. And, we pre and early teen kids never went to a record store. But when Presley released “Hound Dog,” we were late for school so we could be first to buy the record in the morning when the store opened. (All adults, plus anyone we didn't like, were nothing but Hound Dogs and were "no friend of mine.") And the record stores, seeing us for the first time buying product started stocking everything rock and roll --- and we showed up with our newly increased spending allowance. And oh yes, we teens created a new monetary system called "an advance against my allowance" because there was no way we were waiting til Saturday if the next Presley record came out on Wednesday.
Only Bill Haley came before Presley and Haley had a great sound (on at least one record) but zero charisma with his standard stance and overweight near-middle age appearance in his plaid jacket and bow tie. The reason John Lennon (and Dylan and others) said what they did is because Presley's popularity CREATED the huge demand for rock music that swept America and a new consumer power that opened the door to the others to make a living in rock music. In the face of powerful and widespread efforts to stop him, Presley kept going, doing his thing. That in fact is what insipred me, my friends, and the rest of teenage America to stand up and speak out and for Ed Sullivan to change his tune and say he is a "good, decent, boy." Read about the Texans (Holly, Orbison, Knox), and others from all over the U.S. particularly from Presley's South, who came to Memphis and Nashville because of Presley. When he went to NYC to record for RCA, it brought Bobby Darin and others to record there with new record companies springing up. Presley's power was still so great even a few years later that Fabian, who couldn't croak a note, was picked up by a promoter from a street in Philadelphia and made a star because, as the teen magazines wrote, his looks were a cross between Elvis and Ricky Nelson. (And yes, I bought "Turn Me Loose")
Want more facts from someone who actually lived the Presley period and who rebelled against his parents when his elder siblings had never done so before? I could write volumes on what Presley created – and I was never a great Presley fan but sure am grateful he came along because he made it all possible. Read the quotes by Dylan, Springsteen, Orbison, and even forty years later by Garth Brooks. When the White House gives the President a speech, and Carter accepts to deliver it, then the President's words about one entertainer says His and not "He is one of the entertainers," reiterates a fact. President Carter said His music and his personality -- permanently changed the face of American popular culture.
And, American popular music and culture became worldwide. That is why Elvis Presley is the most influential entertainer in the history of the known universe. And, that is why this comment must be in the header section for Presley to identify exactly his place in popular music history. Ted Wilkes 14:47, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Repeat: Facts about the state of music before and after 1955 in music are here at Wikipedia and speak for themselves. Hairstyles are also here Ricky Nelson but available on the web too. All other major singers and their emersion dates are here too. And, not one of them was personally banned etc. Their sales stats are here too. We don't need to list them. And, I accept the words of John Lennon, Bob Dylan, and the others QUOTED in the article. Historians or musicologists do not express opinions on clothing sales, they use facts. The Sears Roebuck Catalog is a fact. I was part of it. Wyss, were you?
Sorry, but read what I said: The White House -- and the staff at the White House do have social historians or musicologists and any other credible source for preparing Presidential statements.
Are you saying Jimmy Carter was deliberately misleading? Politics means being vague, not precise. In fact, knowing about Carter's Christian beliefs, if anything he would never antagonize the religious right who, even in 1977 were still condemning Presley for the harm he did to America's youth. In 2005, they are still trying to get "sexual suggestiveness" off the air.
You said in the comment on your edit: "if that goes into the header, it's got to be qualified."
If President Carter mislead the public, provide proof where even one historian or musicologist contradicted his statement or one major R&R performer who disagreed with the President, or one reputable magazine who disagreed. Why would Wikipedia qualify a Presidential statement that no one has ever challenged? Ted Wilkes 16:04, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I already posted it above (the --- represent the omission of unrelated "fusing the styles of white country and black rhythm and blues" and, add to it that when a Discovery Channel public opinion poll [12] nearly thirty years later puts way Presley ahead of all other entertainers as the Greatest American (no other singer was even in the top 25) it does give some indication that Americans (based on polling theories) agreed with what the President's highly paid staff and unlimited budget for research concluded. Note that this poll was a copy of the one in Canada that is detailed at Wikipedia. Also, we can wait to give you proper time to quote a qualified historian or musicologist who disagreed with the President's statement anytime since 1977. You don't accept Lennon, Dylan, Cliff Richards, and the others? Please clarify who you think they are wrong. As to historians and musicologists and the opinions of "wise" managers/commentators, you should listen to the words of "Handle With Care" by the Traveling Wilburys and read the cover notes they placed on their first album. Ted Wilkes 16:44, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Someone who lived the experience is in fact a reliable source when they quote verifiable statistical facts and events, not opinions. (The U.S. Supreme Court has said so, repeatedly, citing exactly that.) Obtaining secondary confirmation from others who lived at the same time would be pretty easy. And, the statements you agree with by Dylan, Lennon and so on are more credible because of their birth dates and position in the music industry support the claim he was the most influential entertainer in music history.
And, (your) opinons on how the researchers and speechwriters at the White House conmduct themselves is not acceptable as a means for decision making at Wikipedia or opinionizing that Carter was a failed politician. In the United States, we accept White House statements as true until someone disproves them as we did when Nixon said "I am not a crook" and as we did not when Clinton said "I never had sexual relations with....". Parsing of words is a game, but always arises to the level of legal qualification and accepted public fact.
President Carter said: "Elvis Presley's death deprives our country of a part of itself. He was unique and irreplaceable. His music and his personality, fusing the styles of white country and black rhythm and blues, permanently changed the face of American popular culture. His following was immense and he was a symbol to people the world over, of the vitality, rebelliousness, and good humor of his country."
You may quote Carter in the opening paragraph but if so, quote with it the other confirmations from the most respected experts such as Lennon, Dylan etc. unless you are prepared to state that the opinion of Dylan and Lennon has no merit. If as they asserted: before Presley there was nothing, and we owe it all to him, or CR saying "If there was no Elvis Presley, they're would have been no Cliff Richard" etc. etc., then with the documented (Wikipedia too) statistics as to his musical success, the timeline of musical recording facts, (what musicologists use) he is the most influential and too, no other person, living or dead, has claimed any other person to be more influential or even as influential. Unless too, you are challenging the statistics and the accuracy of the Billboard Charts. Ted Wilkes 17:54, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Previously you misquoted me to make an incorrect statement ("White House") and now again with "In the United States, we accept White House statements". I never said Wikipedia. Absolute acceptance of a White House statement as fact is what keeps America as a democracy from disintegrating and why we have an impeachment process. It is fundamental to our existence. We may at time claim to interpret the President’s remarks differently but NEVER does the Media or anyone claim it to be false without proving it. If someone from Libya wishes to disagree, they can, but in the USA, Americans accept the President’s statement as absolute fact. And, Wikipedia does quote Washington, Lincoln and others. Presley was a musician, not a painter. When the President says “EP permanently changed the face of American popular culture,” it is an expression of the collective thinking of the American people expressed by its leader. As such, my quoting the President at Wikipedia is only part of what Dylan, Lennon, Brooks, Jesus Christ, and others said plus the historical records which are not sources, they are just facts. My assertion is based on this collective. Therefore, this plus my above statements as to historical statistics bearing out the statement and the collaboration of others which I have already spelled out requires no further statement from me. If you are uncertain, please reread the above. The facts in support of Presley as the most influential in the history of the universe is clearly documented. And John Lennon is talking about his own music: Rock and Roll. And, before Elvis there certainly was music, again as stated Les Baxter, Mitch Miller and oh yes, that hard rocker Patti Page!
Now that we have a consensus with other Elvis editors such as 195.93.21.99, we can move on to fixing up other sections in this article about the most influential entertainer in the history of music. Ted Wilkes 19:31, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I think I should ad what Rolling Stone magazine says about Presley:
I removed:
This "Rebel Without A Cause" reference is a fabrication or confusion with Jerry Schilling who told Larry King he (Schilling) was a big Dean and Brando fan but never said he memorized anything. It was not on Presley's list of favorite movies as detailed by Priscilla Presley in her book Elvis and Me. (See that article for films he did like.) Her only reference to Dean was in passing named together with Brando and others of the new generation as examples of some "serious" young actors that Elvis wanted to be rather than the movie roles he was stuck with. His relationship with Natalie Wood is already covered in the Relationships section.
I also removed the Criticsm section. Most of it as to Presley's roots in music is elsewhere in the article or some could be added. However, the following appears to be questionable at best as the only other Internet reference to a Helen Kolaoke is in Wikipedia clones:
Looking over the article, I think it's much improved. I especially appreciate Ted Wilkes' extensive additions (thanks!) about EP's gospel roots and relationships. Also, his work on the opening passages, although I thought they were too PoV at first, IMO with a bit of tweaking are now a helpful synopsis of the socio-economic setting into which this talented individual stepped in 1954-55.
About the phrase Elvis Presley was the most influential entertainer in the history of popular music, I think it should read American popular music, but in truth I'm ok with it so long as it continues to read popular music. I think such a summary is only slightly exaggerated and is reasonably arguable and acceptable. No (or very few) eyebrows should raise if the phrase widely acknowledged as... is kept in the header.
Just curious: after all your edits in
The Beatles how is it that you left it with numerous unsourced opinions and statements like: "Their unprecedented fame caused its own stresses and the band was already on the verge of splitting up..." - I am shocked and just do not want to believe it but, are you possibly biased against poor old Elvis? Please say never!
Ted Wilkes 15:19, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I hate to remove someone's sincere contribution but the photo quality of Image:Elvissw.jpg is just too poor for a proper presentation when User:Wyss and others get it ready for "Featured Article" candidacy. Ted Wilkes 15:31, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I removed all the external links except the one owned by the Presley Estate (It's veracity is sujbect to SEC scrutiny.) and the standard IMDb one used throughout Wikipedia. The reason is that most of these are links to fan or personal sites and are little more than advertising. There are so many of these, that admit one you must admit them all and the article could end up with a huge list. As well, competition between these external sites is fierce and I know for fact that some have information that is less than reliable. Plus, we get rid of the annoying links like the onlineline petition an ANON user has been putting in repeatedly. Of course, this is open to discussion. Ted Wilkes 18:25, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
A Wikipedia article is not a fanzine or tribute page. The line, Rolling Stone magazine's biography of him noted, "Elvis Presley is rock 'n' roll." is unencyclopedic and inappropriate for the header. Rock and roll is a genre of music, not a human being. Immediately below, the article does assert, in effect, that Presley embodied rock and roll so the RS quote is redundant too. The Billboard "#1 act of the rock era" quote is even more problematic. There are issues with the definition of rock era, and for that reason the #1 can be reasonably argued against. The latter has already been discussed here, and I have removed it. I've left the RS quote for now. Finally, any description of any person's influence in any field must be qualified somehow, for example by is widely regarded, is generally considered, even is overwhelmingly regarded and so on. Wyss 19:14, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Still do. Could you please try reading my posts more carefully? Wyss 20:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It was your declaration that we must quote musicologists or historians. Rolling Stone only, and without exception, consults, uses, pasys, employs "musicians, critics, historians and key industry figures" in arriving at all their conclusions either for their published biographies or their 100 Best stuff. As such, I repeat, that the most authoritative source in Music declaring Presley IS R&R means he is in fact the most influential. And, their bio
[13] states his influence as I previously quoted verbatim. Unless you are denying the validity of the assessments derived from the most proper sources, then please deal with facts as they exist, not your notion of some vague generality. I asm reversing you for the last time. If you disagree then take it to RFC. Thank you.
Ted Wilkes 22:05, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
I'm editing according to WP policy and will likely continue to. IMHO you're slipping as many fragments of PoV creep as you can into the header and making it sound like a sales pitch for an Elvis CD collection. In effect, even the most blatant, diehard Elvis fanatic wouldn't object to EP being characterized as widely regarded as the most influential entertainer in the history of popular music. You have rarely responded to the content of my posts on this talk page and for the most part have offered your own original research. Editorial statements from Rolling Stone can be attributed, but it's not appropriate to include additional PoV spin like "the music industry's most respected magazine." I'm trying to come to a consensus with you. Wyss 23:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wysss, because I have had great respect for your dedication and ability, I will explain further: Elvis Presley is a biography about a musician. Quoting in the header the most authorative source on how and where he fits in the scheme of things in music history is not only proper, but essential. As I said, Rolling Stone is in fact the most authoritative source and you demanded a qualified source. You insist on inserting the qualifier: widely acknowledged as. By qualifying the statement about him is in fact an assertion that there are those experts who disagree with Rolling Stone. As such, according to your own words and Wiklipedia policy, if you claim that the authorative source quoted is wrong, then you are required to provide the competent source upon which you based your qualification.
Ted Wilkes 00:08, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The New York Times, and every media outlet in America refers to Rolling Stone as the "Bible" of the music industry. What are your qualifications to say: "music industry's most respected magazine" is a joke, RS is a consumer sales platform. (By the way, the writings of all persons, or businesses are in fact "a consumer sales platform.") Ted Wilkes 00:08, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
You are playing games, User:Wyss. And you know it. End of discussion until you reply satisfactorily. Ted Wilkes 00:24, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
P.S. - You should also have bothered to read above when I said : "Rolling Stone only, and without exception, consults, uses, pasys, employs "musicians, critics, historians and key industry figures" in arriving at all their conclusions either for their published biographies or their 100 Best stuff", a fact you already know. So, I repeat, you are playing word games. Ted Wilkes 00:41, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I said we'd address that after you have supported your assertion, every media outlet in America refers to Rolling Stone as the "Bible" of the music industry. Would you like to support or retract that assertion now so we can get to the next item? Wyss 00:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Wyuss, more distractions don't work. I have compromised greatly to achieve consensus. Ted Wilkes 00:53, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The "widely regarded" does it for me. If it makes you feel any better, I don't like the Rolling Stone reference in the header at all (if it were further down I'd be more than ok with it) but happily accept the compromise. Now I strongly suggest we step back from this header for awhile and give other editors a chance to express their input (if any). Again, I think you've added reams of helpful content to this article. I want it to be credible and believe it or not, flattering to Presley as an artist, since the historical record reflects so much that is so flattering about him. If it's presented in an encyclopedic manner with true NPoV (which I think it now is), in a supportable historical context, even more readers will come to the same conclusions and there's no need to "preach to the choir" when it comes to the King ;) Wyss 01:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss: Researching your edits over the past few days lends me to several conclusions. 1) You need to tone down your "comments", they come across as arrogant, and all-knowing. 2) You have either deleted important historical facts like transistor radios or you completely reworded something that totally and completely changed the important fact as follows:
ORIGINAL TEXT:
USER WYSS EDIT:
Preseley's fame soared to new heights towards the end of 1956, the effects of a new and powerful youth consumer market on the American economy was reported on the front page of the December 31, 1956 issue of the The Wall Street Journal.
The Wall Street Journal article was about Presley and his impact - not an article about the new youth consumer. What bothers me, is that you changed this without knowing what you are talking about and removed him from the equation. The shift in consumer spending between 1956 and 1960 was the largest in history.
And another one was your removal of the reference to WLS Radio in Chicago with the editing comment "WLS Chicago had nothing to do with EP's early airplay." In fact it did. The text talked about the end of the National Barn Dance, which came about because Presley (who brought the other rock and rollers with him as the article points out) was so dominant that it severely cut into country music venues such as WLS' Barn Dance. Presley and his elevation of Rock and Roll caused it. To carry it further, he ended the Louisian Hayride too. The article stated, in conjunction with a timeline flow, that:
You also did a similar thing re your edit comment "Sony came later, in a much wider and complex of wake of transistorized consumer technology)." This too was a removal and with an unfounded comment. Just for the record, Sony's first transistor radio went on the market in 1955 and by March of 1957 they were already producing pocket size radios. If you didn't understand the wording and sequence of events in radios, that is understandable if you weren't there.
Pointing out the impact of Presley and R&R is the elements that made him the most influential. They are extemely important to demonstrate to the newer generations who know nothing about that time and his role. (See edit re his being drafted as some mysterious event). That is what biographies are supposed to do. However, rather than willy-nilly edits and unfounded broad assertions, ask on the Talk page for an explanation or comment so others can assist you. We are, after all, here to work together. Thank you. I will fix these things up as soon as possible. Ted Wilkes 02:25, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
In this same vein, you dismissed the Whitburn / Billboard statement inserted by another Wiki User about Presley as the "#1 act of the Rock era". On this website
[14], Billboard sanctions Joel Whitburn's writings.
The most qualified collectors and assessors of historical data on rock and roll is in fact Billboard magazine. Billboard's sanctioning of Whitburn's writings makes him a quotable, qualified source for statistical record data.
Wikipedia quotes Billboard in almost all articles as they are the accepted experts in the gathering of facts.
Therefore, with Whitburn's book(s) endorsed by Billboard or when he quotes Billboard, then his comment is not trivia, it is based on the same facts that the company uses to compile the Billboard Hot 100. Therefore, the Whitburn statement that Elvis Presley was the "#1 act of the Rock era" must be appropriately allocated as part of the collection of statistcal data on sales, No.1 hits (a Billboard compilation too) and other such facts from a credible source. And, from such a source, it is not out of place in the header. Ted Wilkes 03:09, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss - Thought you might enjoy the small addition I made to the Sony article and photos and Sony book references used. My father bought us this in 1956 to use at our summer cottage up in Canada, because, most of this new post-war trend in second homes on a lake didn't get electricty until a sufficient number of serviced lots were sold and electrical hook-ups subscribed for. As such, this particular model seen here that my father bought was the 1956 box-like one (see my previous allusion to this way above). I carried it to school to listen to Presley. In 1957, I wanted the new "cigarette pack" size. No luck, the perfectly good box had to do. S'pose maybe I was right? 1956 ain't late 1950s, it was Elvis time in North America! Ted Wilkes 18:29, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
No, as I said, I toook it to school. As one of the first, I was popular with all the girls for about two days then every damn boy in school had one to listen to Elvis, and now I remember, also "Honey Don't" by Carl Perkins. Problem got worse - the next year, 1957, everyone had the pocket radio to listen to Elvis and followers (Everly's in particular) and I didn't. Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Original research? Read the Sony article and what I said above: I gave the book references from Sony for the FACTS inserted in the article. Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
By the way, you can read about the God of all music and each of his albums courtesy YT. Ted Wilkes 18:32, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Orbison was an angel for sure ;) Wyss 18:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
When you utter that name, do so with great reverence. I have every American album he ever issued, bought as originals within hours of their release. Holly too. EoC Ted Wilkes 18:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss: You reverted my statement in the article saying concering Sony transistor radios being sold in American in 1956 and said in your editing comment : Sony came later, in a much wider and complex of wake of transistorized consumer technology. - I provided facts to prove what I said with photos and reference sources from Sony itself. Please provide your reliable source that declared "Sony came later" so that we know Sony's book and information brochures lied and that your deletion of my work and replcement text was not your created Non-Original Work.
This isn't an answer, it is more avoidance of dealing with the issue. My edit to the Sony article is 100% statement of fact and zero personal comments. Please answer the question -- you are, after all, the one who said it with a reversion of mine. Ted Wilkes 23:02, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
You also said when deleting my text in the article: WLS Chicago had nothing to do with EP's early airplay. Please provide your verifiable source. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 22:35, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Someone's personal Website is not a reliable source. The WLS site confirms exactly what I said in the article but that you deleted!
You said above:
Your assertions (about events from almost half a century ago) is original research, which is not an acceptable citation for a Wikipedia article. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 22:35, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Not necessary, just pointing out that you frequently quote non-original research or your own "memories" or "opinions" without supporting it, even, unlike me, to the point of deleting someone else's statement of fact. Thanks for offering anyway. Ted Wilkes 23:02, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
No further replies necessary, the points raised are fully understood by all. Ted Wilkes 23:04, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Wyss! What happened to "constipation"? A lengthy article about Elvis that does not contain that word, surely can't be NPOV? Do you really want to start everything all over again? I'm sick and tired of reading about what a wonderful guy Elvis was...at least, I comfort myself with the fact that he is rumored to have had the #1 most shameful death of all rock artists.
==Personal insults== (Re: Text Removal) User Wyss: "I think Ted Wilkes must have taken it out." Not only do you insert unfounded statements into articles, you also do the same here willy nilly without bothering to take three seconds to check and make a personal attack on me with a fabricated accusation. May I remind you of the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy. Ted Wilkes 13:41, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Changing an unnecessay title that is inappropriate at Wikipedia. Ted Wilkes 13:44, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I still think you took it out, but maybe I'm wrong, anyway I said I think you did it. It wasn't a personal attack, you've removed that item in the past. I notice you still haven't quoted and cited the Wall Street Journal article as I asked, and I think you're mis-interpreting whatever information you can cite about Sony transistor radios. Please provide cites from secondary sources to support your interpretive assertions about 1950s economics and consumer products in north America, thanks. I'd also appreciate it if you would stop trying to find reasons for confrontation and accusation at almost every turn, and try to work with me on writing this article according to Wikipedia policy. Wyss 14:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
User Wyss: said "I still think you took it out,". -- You need to stop the insults, and now. It took a few seconds for me to find this but you, as I noted before, didn't even bother. This kind of conduct at Wikipedia casts serious doubt on your credibility.
-- Ted Wilkes 14:48, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
So where are the cites I asked for? Wyss 15:12, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I've repeatedly asked Ted Wilkes to supply actual quotes from the Wall Street Journal article he is using as a cite and mentioning in the article. The reporter's qualifications are interesting but need not be cited in the text of the article. I don't know why Ted Wilkes resists providing the quote. When I speculate on this topic, I think maybe he doesn't have it, or that its literal content doesn't support his assertion that Elvis Presley was in effect single-handedly (my words) responsible for the growth of the consumer youth market in 1950s north America (I suspect the article mentions Presley's prominent role as one of those who profited from it but doesn't credit him with causing it). Anyway I don't know why Ted Wilkes won't cite his sources.
We have a similar issue re Sony and transistor radios. Although Ted Wilkes has posted much original research to this talk page in the form of recollections and interpretations of those memories, he has yet to cite a secondary source on Sony's transistor radios that even mentions Presley's name.
Regarding the radio station WLS in Chicago, Ted Wilkes seems to want an assertion in the article that WLS switched over to rock and roll/pop in 1960 because of Elvis Presley. I have been unable to find any secondary source discussing their format change that even mentions Elvis Presley, and after continued requests Ted Wilkes has yet to provide one either.
I'm willing to work with Ted Wilkes on this, but his remaining assertions seem to invert cause and effect and in the absence of secondary sources which plainly support his thesis, I continue to edit the article according to my good-faith interpretation of WP policy, especially Wikipedia:No original research. Wyss 17:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I support EQuintan's condensation of the article and have also moved the Rolling Stone quotes to the legacy section, since they are blatant PoV and not suitable for the header. Wyss 20:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss - You are aware that eliciting someone else to do your edit to avoid being blocked from editing after reaching the three revert rule limit is a violation of Wikipedia policy. Massive deletions of text are not acceptable without explanations. If User:EQuilan wishes to remove any section he may bring his reasons to the discussion page.
Ted Wilkes 22:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
I was as surprised as you to see EQuilan show up. I did not solicit his/her participation, but I do strongly support the condensation. If you have any questions about why some of your edits have not been enyclopedic, please re-read this talk page. Wyss 22:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Given the back and forth we're seeing involving four editors over the last few hours, I've now put together (or reconstructed) a version of the longer article without the unsupported original research interpretations, which preserves the minor chronological updates made during that time. Wyss 01:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The unsupported items are:
These factors, and the editor's enthusiastic and lengthy narratives of his own personal recollections of the era on this talk page, have convinced me that the above assertions are original interpretations based on the editor's own original research and are thus not acceptable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article.
There are a couple of other questionable items, the inclusion of a strongly PoV Rolling Stone magazine quote in the header (which I have moved to the legacy section) and a reference to Elvis-themed gift-giving in 1956, which alone doesn't seem to be much of a problem but which has been used as a fulcrum for the unsupported items listed above.
Meanwhile, the same editor has contributed large amounts of helpful, supportable content to this article which I strongly endorse and would like to see kept.
Wyss
01:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The editor could have sent me the WSJ text via private email if he was worried about copyright issues. I count over three dozen recent private emails from him in my inbox.
Wyss
02:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I've placed a disputed tag on the article while we sort this out. I do need to see the text he's referring to and the WLS intepretation seems to be unsupported too. I didn't see any reference to Sony transistor radios in the current revision of the article but if it's there, or re-appears, that also needs to be supported in some confirmable way. I think the article is very helpful aside from these unqualified and broad socio-economic interpretations. Wyss 15:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss deleted the following text as soon as it was inserted by me:
I have reinstated it. Ted Wilkes 16:03, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop with your repeated word games and stop the misleading referrals. I will not allow you to continue with your pettiness. State ACCURATELY and precisely what you dispute here. Then, and only, then, will I gladly answer as I have done before. Ted Wilkes 16:06, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Here, for the third or fourth time, are the disputed items:
1 The editor has written: Presley, and the enormous nationwide demand for rock and roll music he created, severely impacted the traditional country music industry. By 1960, after three straight years of sharply declining audiences, important longtime country radio broadcasts such as the Louisiana Hayride came to an end and major stations such as WLS in Chicago, Illinois, who had broadcast the "National Barn Dance" since 1925, dropped the show to switch its format to Top 40 Rock and Roll Music.
The problem: The editor has provided no secondary source to support this threaded assertion. It can be supported that Presley created a demand for Elvis Presley records. It can be supported that some country music broadcasts suffered declining audiences, but the editor has not provided support that EP was singularly responsible for this as the sentence implies. It can be supported that WLS switched its format to rock and roll/pop in 1960. However, the editor has not provided support that they did this because of Elvis Presley. No WLS history page I've seen even mentions EP, they didn't switch formats until he'd been in the army for two years and the editor has offered no citation of a secondary source that asserts WLS changed formats because of EP. Similarly, his direct cause-and-effect assertion that EP caused the cancellation of a few country music broadcasts years later is unsupported.
1)The PBS documentary on music roots called Presley QUOTE "an American music giant of the 20th century who singlehandedly changed the course of music and culture in the mid-1950s. (This fits with what Rollling Stone magaine says when they said: EP IS R&R)
And in support of all those experts like PBS, Rolling Stone, the President of the United States, as stated in the article, also said Elvis Presley "permanently changed the face of American popular culture.
Just for the record, your "disputed" item borders on meaningless. There are thousands of books, films, documentaries etc. on this. -- Ted Wilkes 17:36, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
2 In 1956 America... Teens also bought the new Sony transistor radios in huge numbers, helping to propel the fledgling company into a leadership role in electronics.
The problem: This is unsupported. Teenagers were not buying Sony transistor radios in huge numbers in 1956. Tens of thousands of transistor radios had been sold by Sony in the US by 1957, but these are not "huge" numbers in relation to the American econoy at that time (for example, Elvis Presley sold millions of records during the period, as a result of his recordings being heard on tube driven radios, and virtually all of these were played on tube record players). Sony's mega unit sales didn't begin until the very early 1960s (when Elvis was already gone and back from the army) but no matter, it is the editor's responsibility to cite his assertions as made in the article.
FIRST: YOU STATED AS FACT: "Teenagers were not buying Sony transistor radios in huge numbers in 1956." Please cite your sources. First (above) you said "Sony came later" and dismissed the reference altogethger but thebn changed your tune by the absolute facts supplied by me. And, my sources are already cited by me (and this is the second time I've told you) in the Sony article book references for books by the Sony company publication and the book by Morita.
3 By the end of 1956, Presley's impact on the American economy had reached such significance that the effects of his records sales spurring a new and powerful youth consumer market was reported by Louis Kraar in a December 6, 1956 article in the highly influential business and financial newspaper The Wall Street Journal...
The problem: The editor asserts that Elvis Presley's record sales spurred a "new and powerful youth consumer market" and cites a WSJ article, but has refused to provide the actual text supporting this assertion, even by private email. I can support a counter assertion that the emerging youth markets were created by socio-economic forces that had little or nothing to do with EP (talented though he was, culturally influential though he was).
Summary: By threading together a few inocuous remarks about 1950s tecnology and economics in an article about EP, the editor has achieved a strongly implied and wholly unsupported assertion that Elvis Presley was singularly responible for: Sony transistor radios being sold in the millions ("huge numbers") in 1956-1957... WLS changing its format in 1960... and in effect, the post war affluence of american teenagers.
In an early edit, he had asserted that they had demanded or otherwise forced their parents to give them higher allowances for the specific purpose of buying Elvis Presley records, however, he's been slightly more careful since this dispute began.
He has provided only lengthy personal recollections and his own personal interpretations of his memories, which is original research and which has been repeatedly pointed out to him. He has also asserted that I am too young to understand what happened then (my paraphrase- he knows the year of my birth). He has for the most part ignored my remarks about these aspects of the problem. Wyss 17:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
ONCE AGAIN: YOU PLAY WITH WORDS. THIS STATEMENT BY YOU IS FALSE. YOUR ARGUMENT, THEREFORE, IS MEANINGLESS.
Thank you. With all these rather minute items now fully answered, I will now remove your dispute notice. Thank you. -- Ted Wilkes 17:58, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
BTW - You still have not said why you immediately deleted my important insertion about the W.C. Handy award and the Blues Foundation. An apology might be a nice gesture. A simple, non-wordy one. Ted Wilkes 18:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry you're having so much trouble understanding the difference between secondary sources and original research.
And the apology for the Handy Award improper deletion? Did I miss it?
Ted Wilkes 18:47, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
There is more work to be done here on his death and illness and reported hospitalizations from prescription drug abuse c.1974-75. Then, when done here, we can move to get rid of the POV in The Beatles. Ted Wilkes 18:47, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
As to couduct, you the one User:Onefortyone had to seek Mediation because of the same way you conduct yourself here as you did on other articles?. This is the end with your repeated WORD GAME that goes on and on without any substance or willingness to state your case. Each time I give you an indisputable source, you start going in circles. You did this elsewhere, repeatedly. I will not have you abuse my generosity and willingness to go out of my way to help. Ted Wilkes 20:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
User Wyss inserted this text:
You're confused. This is a reliable source (and hey, at least I'm citing one). The other you're referring to was widely regarded as made-up gossip. Anyway it's published on the web, credible, linked to directly from WLS' corporate history button etc. You can squirm as much as you like, but the cite complies with WP policy. Wyss 20:44, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, the DJ's site isn't encyclopedia material but I aoppreciate yourv effort. Ted Wilkes 20:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also: The website User:Wyss linked too is not the offical Sony site but it says: that the 1957 model: "took the world by storm." Most businesses would only dream to have such a "lacklustre" performance. The site also says that Sony sold 114,536 in its first intoduction period. That is amazing in a nonexistent market with what was then a high priced product from a country whose products were stuill then the butt of jokes. It seems if this unauthorized site is correct, then it certainly did take the world by storm. Ted Wilkes 20:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I suspect the editor would drool all over them if they agreed with his original research. Sadly, his original research is unsupported (I tried to find cites to support him days ago). The editor has provided no citations supporting his PoV, yet I've cited credible sources supporting my concerns about the viability of his original research. Wyss 21:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you help out on the Rock and Roll article? It needs work. Or, The Beatles, you must be concerned about the POV in it? Ted Wilkes 21:48, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
This is abssolutely a Wikipedia:No personal attacks violation:
I gave a full explanation here on the talk page, AS ALWAYS. Ted Wilkes 21:52, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
I said re SONY: The website User:Wyss linked too is not the offical Sony site.
User Wyss replied and agreed with me that it wasn't an acceptable siource, hence I deleted it:
Thank you. I will not engage in further discussions with someone who calls me a liar and engages in personal attacks. Ted Wilkes 22:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
Ok. Maybe the editor has a point. If he thought I was agreeing with him that one of my citations wasn't credible, perhaps he does have a serious perceptual or reading comprehension problem. I'm sure reasonable readers will understand why I thought he was lying. Now that I've seen his response, maybe he wasn't, so I take it back. However, given his evident lack of reading comprehension, which I think is caused only by his extreme emotional attachment to this specific dispute, I think he should disengage from this article for several days, ponder the problems his original research has caused, and think about how he might work in a more cooperative way to stabilize this article and keep it free of original research. Wyss 22:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Mr Wilkes, you'd better suggest some sort of compromise, because I intend to revert any edits by you to the last Wyss version. I'm sure you remember my persistence about the "constipation" thing, so your versions will not stay there very long.
Like I've said thousands of time, I'm sick and tired of crazy Elvis fanatics who claim he was the reason why people started buying this or doing that etc. To me personally he's a guy who performed songs written by other people in a music genre invented by an entirely different ethnic group (African Americans) - and who is rumored to have had the #1 most ridiculous death of all celebrities (yet another #1 hit for Mr. Presley :-) ).
So, Mr Wilkes, what is your offer gonna be? ( 129.241.134.241 03:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC))
Despite providing reams of facts to repute the unfounded assertions of User:Wyss, she ignored and repeatedly inserted her incorrect statements on WLS radio etc. After launching a personal attack against me, calling me a liar, User:Wyss took advantage of my refusal to continue and once again reinserted the following text:
Ted Wilkes is misrepresenting the history of this discussion (although he may believe he's being sincere). His assertions re WLS are unsupported and his mention of WLS in this article is misleading. I've supported my edits with citations, he's only offered original research (which attributes cause and effect in unsupported ways). Wyss 01:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Response (3 parts):
3) In addition to creating her own version of what was said, the website [28] that User:Wyss refers to belongs to a former employee. Even though it confirms what I wrote: “Faced with dwindling audiences, WLS reluctantly closed down the live version of the National Barn Dance,“ it is not a qualified source for an encyclopedia. Only the station's owners are qualified to state why they made certain business decisions.
I think it's a reliable source. Announcers for major radio stations work under constant market pressures and are often familiar with the economic and demographic contexts of their work. The cite says WLS changed its format because of shifting demographics and doesn't mention anything about EP. I'd rather leave any mention of WLS out of the article altogether: When they switched formats, Elvis was already finishing up his service in the army etc. Wyss 01:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Like the WLS radio issue above, despite providing reams of facts to repute the unfounded assertions of User:Wyss, she ignored and repeatedly inserted her incorrect statements on the Wall Street Journal reference. After violating the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy, calling me a liar, User:Wyss took advantage of my refusal to continue and once again reinserted the following text:
[30] [31] [32] yields discussions on higher levels of disposable income along with widely shifting demographic and global social trends. Only one briefly mentions Presley, noting that the singer's success alerted some marketers to the untapped potential of a youth consumer market already in existence. -"
Response:
The key to what I said is "spurring", I did not say "created". Presley's huge and unprecedented record sales spurred the market – that is an indisputable fundamental of economics. Note that PBS said Presley "singlehandedly changed the course of music and culture in the mid-1950s" and the
President of the United States in an offical press release from the White House said Elvis Presley "permanently changed the face of American popular culture." Spending habits are an integral part of culture.
What User Wyss added to the article says: "A sampling of scholarly and otherwise qualified studies on the topic". These 4 references are not about Elvis Presley and Rock and Roll. One is from Harvard University, it is not about, and does not mention, Presley or his Rock and Roll industry. It is an article about American
consumerism and belongs in the
Economy of the United States article.
The other 3 references are by non-Americans and in 2 of them the word "United States" doesn’t appear anywhere and they make no mention of, and have nothing to do with, Presley or his Rock and Roll. They are all generalities about baby boomers etc. that is irrelvant to the Presley article. However, I does mention Presley but User:Wyss again distorts facts and to create her own meaning and mislead readers at Wikipedia when she stated (above):
In the article, User:Wyss inserted her opinion: "Elvis Presley was not a catalyst for the increased affluence and independence of youth in post-war America."
In fact, that article actually confirms what I wrote about Presley. Here is verbatim what the article [33] actually said: "The phenomenal success of Elvis Presley in 1956 convinced many doubters of the financial opportunities existing in the youth market."
While I give great credence to the Wall Street Journal financial newspaper and one of its most important business writers and Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting winner, I cannot give unequivocal acceptance to a "paper" placed on the Internet that express the opinions of one professor from the Department of History, University of Auckland, New Zealand about United States economics particularly because the Professor's paper is without benefit of other scholarly review and its date unknown meaning its theories could have since been updated many times since by other scholars. I note that it ends in the 1970s. However, in the spirit of cooperation and respecting a Professor and his university, I have inserted this quote in its true and accurate form into the article.
As seen on this page and in other Talk pages where User:Wyss has been involved, she uses voluminous word games devoid of substance and refuses to deal with facts while forcing others to provide proofs of the same issue over and over. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 14:24, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
If we're talking about word counts and games, I think Ted Wilkes has it backwards but whatever, I'm here to work on the article and solve issues related to its content. Meanwhile I'm getting happier with the WSJ paragraph. The sweeping assertions seem to have diminished and it's starting to be heavy on quotes and objective remarks directly related to EP's career. Wyss 01:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed unfounded text inserted today for at least the thirtieth time by User:Onefortyone (Formerly know as ANON 80.141. etc.)
USER:Onefortyone take note:
RESPONSE: No, you have not cited credible sources. You have cited hearsay and two publications by authors with questionable agendas and a less than stellar publishing history. Several members of the Memphis Maphia wrote highly critical books about Elvis. It is highly unlikely that they would have covered up his sexuality. You're basing your claims on fourth-rate sources and you are engagin in what I can only describe as a character assasination. Lochdale
Having removed the word "spurring" at first, I put it back in after trimming some of the praise given to the WSJ (its reputation is widely known and recognized). I'm not crazy about the word "spurring", but I think it's reasonable to use in the para, which now sticks to attributed quotes and which I now find both interesting and helpful. Wyss 15:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Except, you put it back in the wrong place, thereby changing the meaning. Ted Wilkes 15:46, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Try reading it again. If you still don't like it, I'll keep after it until you do. Wyss 15:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
You deleted important information that you yourself repeatedy demands. That is, proper sources and references as to that person's qualifuications. You removed the supporting credibity of the writer. And, you removed "In this vein" - In fact, the good Professor you cited was writing about the WSJ article and others (print media). Ted Wilkes 15:56, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Ted Wilkes, please take a deep breath and calm down. The WSJ has a great reputation, one of the best. The "Pulitzer prize winning" phrase is still there. The para needn't overdo its praise for the WSJ. What mattered to me was that there be attributed quotes and no original interpretation of them. Now... what specifically doesn't work for you? Please be a little patient here, ok? Wyss 16:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Your games to portray me as first "angry" (yesterday) and now to "Calm down", don't work. Validating the credentials of a source quoted is your demand. Note too, quoting the good Professor in italics is what you did with Elaine Bundy on Nick Adams. I have gone far out of my way be be courteous and answer ALL your demands but you continue over and over with the same disruptive tactics that have no substance. Ted Wilkes 16:18, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Look, I think you've gotten so sensitive about this, you're seeing things that aren't there. The italics are style considerations, put 'em in quotes if you like, I don't care. I'm restoring the paragraph the way you had it (if you haven't already). If you want readers to think along the lines of, "hmm, they certainly are praising the WSJ to the max here, I wonder what sort of PoV they're trying to sell me...", ok. I think you're skimming my remarks on this talk page and not reading them btw, maybe I'm wrong but that's the feeling I get. Wyss 16:22, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
As you are well aware, ALL my edits, without exception, are founded on verifiable facts and I never promote anything. No person reading this will think Wikipedia promotes the WSJ. Because I am qualified to talk about business manners, and can provide qualified sources, I am going to expand on the WSJ article to detail in dollar terms relative to GDP then and now just how large Presley's impact was. It is the Professor YOU quoted that called it " The phenomenal success of Elvis Presley in 1956 convinced many doubters of the financial opportunities existing in the youth market."
Ted Wilkes 16:33, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
You're not even responding to my remarks. Wyss 17:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
User:Wyss repeatedly deleted the following important and relevant information I had inserted:
This is important, factual, and very relevant to the article and I have now reinserted it in a modified form:
User:Wyss again deleted this important and relevant information:
02:18, August 9, 2005 Wyss (→An American phenomenon - teens were not buying Sony transistors in volume in 56 or 57, this is wholly unsupported and misleading)
User:Wyss said (above on this page):
1) "I think you're mis-interpreting whatever information you can cite about Sony transistor radios."
2) User:Wyss also said that I had "provided no citations that mention both Sony transistor radios and EP, and I can't find any."
3) User:Wyss also said "Tens of thousands of transistor radios had been sold by Sony in the US by 1957, but these are not "huge" numbers in relation to the American econoy at that time."
3) User:Wyss also asserted: "Sony's mega unit sales didn't begin until the very early 1960s (when Elvis was already gone and back from the army)."
Please see
Northwestern University
[37] writing with referencing to The Portable Radio in American Life by University of Arizona Professor Michael Brian Schiffer, Ph.D. (The University of Arizona Press, 1991) that says amongst much other things on this subject:
1) The rapid growth in sales was not fueled by the consumers who had bought the earlier generation of high-fidelity radio consoles. Sony's march to dominance in consumer electronics was, instead, driven by a uniquely American phenomenon: rock ‘n’ roll.
2) Schiffer writes (in his book: The Portable Radio in American Life.) "Rock and roll was not yet a household word, much less a big business. Largely because of Elvis, that would soon change."
3) Sales of portable radios in 1958 exceeded 5 million. Two years later, that figure had doubled.
Next, see the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame permanent exhibit: "Listen to the Music: evolution of audio technology"
[38] and read [
http://www.rockandrollreport.com/the_rock_and_roll_report/2005/04/two_new_exhibit.html] that says:
There are many more references from Kent State University and the like so I don't understand why User:Wyss said (above): I can't find any. Also, here at the Wikipedia article transistor radio that I had linked in the Presley article, is an external link to the website [39] of Dr. Steven Reyer, a Professor in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Department at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. It gives a great history by an Engineer on the first transistor portable made by Regency Division of Industrial Development Engineering Associates of Indianapolis and how they sold 100,000 units in 1954 then closed their doors, handing over the huge new industry to Japan, led by Sony.
Thank you. Ted Wilkes 11:46, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, they went broke and Sony proceeded to struggle with it for five years before finally cracking the market. None of these quotes supports your assertion that teens were buying them in "huge numbers" in 56 or 57. Nor do they support your inference that Presley had any causal effect. He is described as a symptom, not a creator or catalyst. Your interpretation is original research, your assertion is wholly unsupported by the very quotes you cite. Wyss 12:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Second response:
Further, the exact quote I gave User:Wyss above that "Sales of portable radios in 1958 exceeded 5 million" comes from the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois which is one of the foremost journalism schools in the USA. Their attribution of Elvis and early Rock and Roll to Sony transistor radios is clear and precise and they quote The Portable Radio in American Life by University of Arizona Professor Dr. Michael Brian Schiffer, Ph.D. (The University of Arizona Press, 1991). As well, Professor Steven E. Schoenherr, Department of History, University of San Diego wrote: "History of Radio: Extensive chronology of evolution of radio technology” [42]. Here, Professor Steven E. Schoenherr staes:
To User:Wyss - If you continue deleting my quoted facts from authenticated scholars and insert the writings of a "fan website" in violation of official Wikipedia:Policy, then I will take this matter to Wikipedia:Requests for comment.
Thank you. Ted Wilkes 00:04, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Expanations are required by ANON 129.241.134.241 for its deletions: their revert to an old version by Wyss deleted changes she had already accepted and my last input as stated immediately above.: 21:56, August 8, 2005 129.241.134.241 (Reverted to the last WYSS version)
I am reverting this. Ted Wilkes 02:05, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Explanation: Your sentence is awfully presumptious. No advances in technology should be attributed to a mere pop star. What's next - there would be no Napster without Offspring ? Elvis and advances in technology are unrelated. You might just as well say that "families also started buying TV sets so that their kids could watch their favourite hero LIVE, thus helping the TV industry".
When you insert a sentence like that, the reader might think that Elvis should have credit for people buying a new gadget. The only industry (outside of music industry) Elvis might have helped, is the pharmaseutical one - the use of constipation medicine probably skyrocketed! After all, no one really wants to die like that. Give the guy the Darwin's award.
And also: Judging from the posts above, I don't see that you and Wyss have come to an agreement. Why don't you ask Wyss to implement the changes you both have mutually agreed to? Then I won't have to revert anything! ( 129.241.134.241 05:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
Hopefully Ted Wilkes are at least approaching agreement. I strongly agree that advances in technology can't be attributed to EP. Any reference to Sony transistor radios in this article will mislead casual readers into thinking he had something to do with it. Anyway the sales numbers I've seen and cited are very low for 56, still only in the 100,000 range by late 57, and they didn't really pick up for Sony until Elvis had left for the army. I strongly discourage any mention of transistor radios in the article, EP's fame was transmitted and heard through tube technology and transistors would do their work of miniaturization with or without him. Wyss 06:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. I mean, Elvis was the Ricky Martin of the 50s, with pubescent girls being his target audience. Naturally, the best medium would be television, not radio. BTW, I remember something about JFK beating Nixon in a televised debate, whereas most of the RADIO listeners judged Nixon to be the winner. So: radio is a menium for the ugly. ( 129.241.134.241 08:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
Not exactly. Elvis sold hundreds of millions more records than Ricky Martin and had vastly greater cultural impact. Elvis did bring rockabilly and rock and roll to white girls and through them to mainstream western culture and beyond. So far as the visual side, he was frequently seen on television and in movies before he went into the army (and of course the movies continued when he came back, though some might say those were mostly dreadful). The purpose of this article is neither to bash nor canonize EP, but to present both the documented record and published commentary in helpful, encyclopedic form. Wyss 08:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Now, so far as radio being a medium for the ugly, there is a funny/sad story someone once told me, about a singer named Christopher Cross from the late 70s who had some top forty hits which did great with teenaged girls... until they saw him on TV with his unfortunate "ax murderer" image (according to the story I heard). Plainly, EP did not have this problem in 1956. Wyss 08:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
LOL. BTW, my daily rhythm is out of whack. I'm actually going to bed at 4 PM now....Well, you have one revert left. Use it with care! I'll wake up at around midnight and take over the watch. God damn it, nothing makes life more worth while than fighting hords of brainwashed fanatics....Well, take care! (
129.241.134.241
14:10, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Onefortyone (including as ANON 80.141.etc.) has several variations of his claim about Dee Presley (the ex-wife of Vernon Presley who were separated in 1974 and divorced in 1977):
In the article on Nick Adams, this User inserted the same thing about Dee Presley and came up with yet another version at Talk:Nick Adams:
Seeing as this User reverted others more than FORTY times when they tried to revert his nonsense, perhaps User:Onefortyone needs to explain himself as he has reinserted this repeatedly again today. Ted Wilkes 02:32, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
BTW, this sound like a great idea - if Mr. Wilkes continue to insert his ridiculous claims about Sony transistors, maybe I'll start inserting claims about Elvis being gay. Watch out, Teddy Wilkes!( 129.241.134.241 05:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Ted Wilkes has now reverted this article 4 times in the last 24 hours. See for yourselves:
11:35 9th of August
00:10 10th of August
01:07 10th of August
01:30 10th of August
Mr. Wilkes is asked to respect Wikipedia policy from now on ( 129.241.134.241 01:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
User:Ted Wilkes has once again reverted the article 4 times in the past 24 hours. This is his second violation. See for yourselves.
00:10 10th of August
01:07 10th of August
01:30 10th of August
08:50 10th of August
It seems to me that you are no big Elvis fan, since you keep inserting stuff about him allegedly being gay. It seems to me that the majority opinion on this site is against that allegation, and will be removed very quickly.
However, if you tone it down a bit and put it in the "trivia" as an "unsupported claim", your claim may very well stay there untouched.
Furthermore, I would be happy to ally myself with you in order to to fight our common enemy User:Ted Wilkes, who keeps inserting ridiculous claims that people started buying a new Sony gadget because of Elvis. He is also one the first people who will remove your stuff.
Of course, you claim has to be altered in order to be approved by User:Wyss, who seems very dedicated to this article, yet is closer to our side than Ted Wilkes' Elvis-Is-A-Wonderful-Guy coalition.
Join us, Onefortyone! After all, an edit war with 3 parties involved seems kind of stupid.
What say you? ( 129.241.134.241 03:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
But this article concerns as many as 4 people, all of who are eager reverters at the Elvis article. ( 129.241.134.241 06:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
( 129.241.134.241 10:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Wikipedia precedent for dealing with this issue:
User:129.241.134.241, you have made comments on this page that violate Wikipedia:Civility and referring to me as "fight our common enemy" is a violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Your statement on this page and offer at User talk:Onefortyone to form an alliance to "fight our common enemy" and to prevent others from editing and avoiding the Wikipedia:Three revert rule for themselves and their ally, contravenes Wikipedia:Policy. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Precedents#Civility / disruption / reasonableness and see if you can then work in a spirit of cooperation by providing reasons for your edit reversions so that consensus, based on facts, can be achieved. Thank you. Ted Wilkes 10:07, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
And I certainly never suggested anything about preventing anyone else but you ( who, after all, have repeatedly broken the 3 revert rule ) from editing this article. ( 129.241.134.241 10:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Please immediately refrain from personal attacks:
Please read: Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Consequences that includes: "Abusive edit summaries are particularly ill-regarded." Thank you. Ted Wilkes 11:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
You still haven't explained or apologized for your repeated violations of Wikipedia policy ( the 3 revert rule ). ( 129.241.134.241 11:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
RESPONSE TO:
User:129.241.134.241 - Your edits have been reverted in accordance with Wikipedia official poilcy. See
Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Remedies that includes "If you are personally attacked, you may remove the attacks."
Please observe Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Thank you. I will not participate in such conduct. Ted Wilkes 12:00, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
::An earlier version of the article cited this page. It says: "Except where otherwise noted, this history of transistor radios is derived from The Portable Radio in American Life, by Michael Brian Schiffer (The University of Arizona Press, 1991)." Schiffer is an anthropologist, described here. Cheap copies of this book are available. -- Hoary 15:54, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Note to User:Ted Wilkes, I have restored Hoary's original comment, which you altered [46]. In the future, if you wish to remark on someone's post, add your comments below it. Changing user comments as you did is a violation of Wikipedia policy and if you continue doing this you could be blocked again. Wyss 15:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Response to
User:Wyss – User:Hoary was quoting me (An earlier version of the article cited) and he must have accidentally forgotten to c&p some of the text. You appear to be accusing User:Hoary of deliberately downplaying the credentials of Dr. Michael Brian Schiffer,
Ph.D. which I must say, I most certainly don't think he did at all. If User:Hoary disagreed with my correcting of a quote attributed to me, he undoubtedly would have reverted me and stated so. However, I hardly think he would be doing something deceitful as you appear to suggest; after all he posted the link to the
Minnesota State University brief biographical information on Dr. Schiffer and I only helped his thoughtful link with the rest of Dr. Schiffer's title as the University of Arizona’s Director of the Laboratory of Traditional Technology.
User:Wyss, I'm sure you and other readers might also want to know that beyond the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University, Dr. Schiffer's book is one of the most referred to sources on the matter by scholars, technicians, and others on the internet and was recommended to me personally by Dr. Steven Reyer, a Professor at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. User:Hoary went out of his way to be accommodative and posted a link where used copies of Dr. Schiffer's book can be purchased cheap. The 259 page edition, even in paperback, [47] is still quite expensive at $27.95.
As noted, you deleted the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University and their Dr. Schiffer references/links in the article and inserted material in their place from the website of a radio fan with a General Certificate of Education, which you labeled as a qualified encyclopedic source.
I'll wait until you and your partner User:129.241.134.241 are done with the Elvis Presley article before I check it. Ted Wilkes 18:02, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Please don't surreptitiously change other users' comments on talk pages. If you do, you could be blocked again. Wyss 18:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I believe the latest statement about portable radios in the American phenomenon section is now reasonable and supportable. I still don't much like the adjective "huge", because the syntax implies these numbers were "huge" in 55 and 56 but I'm nitpicking a bit there since beginning and ending sales figures are given for the entire period through 1958 etc. Wyss 12:14, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The statement "people started to buy Sony transistors" is supportable, but so is "United Kingdom banned heroin in 1956". What has that to do with Elvis Presley?
Maybe it would be possible to say "the market for portable radios was boosted by the popularity of rock 'n' roll music, of which Presley was the most notable representative" ? If you put it like that, then it is rock 'n' roll that is credited, not just Elvis. ( 129.241.134.241 12:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
But then again, why does it have to be mentioned in this particular article, why not the
Rock n roll article? The reader might get the wrong impression that HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR ELVIS, the Sony transistor radios would have sold far, far less than 5 million copies. Can someone craft a sentence that avoids this pitfall? (
129.241.134.241
12:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
Ok, I've restored the reference without the word "huge." In truth, I like it as it is now and think it's helpful. Wyss 13:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I added the words "in order to listen to rock 'n' roll music". That way, the main purpose was to listen to all kinds of loud, rebellious, parent-provoking music, not necessarily Elvis Presley.
I agree with your argument that the reader is informed about transistor radios in general. If I'm ever on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" and the question is "in which decade did the portable transistor radios become available" I'll answer "the fifties".
But there will never be a question such as "Which famous singer was responcible for selling 5,000,000 transistor radios?"
Anyway, I hope the issue is resolved now.
( 129.241.134.241 13:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
you guys are nerds. Just listen to white and nerdy the coolest song evr and itll say how peeps who edit wikipedia r nerds. thats what u are. im not trying to be mean or anything, us cool people <3 nerds! I am just pointing out the ovious before it gets into bad hands. for example gary oodoocles hands