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I have a question which has been occupying me for a long time: Elvis Presely was a good PIANO PLAYER (just listen to the "Million Dollar Quartet", where Elvis plays almost all piano parts and accompanies himself singing.
Everybody knows Elvis played the guitar. But he wasn't a very good guitar player, actually. He could play chords, to accompany his singing, but no more than that.
But his piano capabilities were very good. Not just chords, Elvis really could play the piano very well, no comparison to his guitar playing (which was sufficient for the purpose of course, but Elvis was a good PIANIST).
My question: Why did he play the piano so well (even in 1956), where had he learnt it? And why doesn't anyone seem to notice that Elvis was a good piano player (he is always referred to as a singer - of course - who could also play the guitar. But Elvis wasn't REALLY a guitarist, although he could play chords to sing along to, but he REALLY was a piano player.
It would really be nice if someone could answer these questions:
1. How come Elvis was such a good piano player? Where and how did he learn it?
2. Why is the fact that Elvis was quite a good piano player neglected by all sources?
Thank you for your answer, in advance.
From the "Question Asker" (piano playing):
Thank you for your hint. Just watched "Baby what you want me to do" from the 1968 TV Special. I had known the track, but didn't remember that Elvis was such a good, extraordinary rhythm guitarist. To avoid any misunderstandings: I am speaking of the live-version where Elvis is sitting with other musicians (Scotty Moore, D.J. Fontana etc.) and where he is playing Scotty Moore's semi-acoustic guitar. I am NOT speaking of the version where Elvis stands alone and plays a red semi-acoustic with rather a thin sound (on this latter version, Elvis Presley's guitar playing, again, unluckily is DROWNED by uncoordinated NOISE of other musicians who are no match for him, to say the least).
There is no doubt he was the best rhythm guitar player of his time. This is not an exaggeration by a "deafened and blinded" Elvis fan. In 1968 there was nothing comparable. It would have been much more than just a good idea for Elvis to play the rhythm guitars on his later recordings, too.
Of course this isn't mere chord strumming, it would be an insult to say this. I do apologize for my ignorance (it was just because I didn't know better).
Elvis' rhythm guitar was as outstanding as his singing, a real ROCK rhythm guitar. No one of the well-known guitarist of his time could play like this. This is unbelievable rock rhythm guitar playing. And I'm not saying this because I'm an Elvis fan blinded by passion.
Of course it is no wonder that Elvis wasn't "just" the most amazing singer in the world, as his daughter Lisa Marie put it. A person like this (whereas the formula: a person like this seems to be strange in this respect, because there isn't a person "like" Elvis Presley), i. e. a person with this enormous musical talent of course isn't "just" a singer. The way he sings or plays any instrument reveals his talent. Therefore, his rhythm guitar is outstanding, to say the least.
Elvis was the best rock rhythm guitar player of his time (of course I'm speaking only of the ones who are well-known and published). No doubt about that. To avoid getting this wrong: I'm not saying nobody else could play those notes (just as well as it doesn't take a lot to sing the notes of "Treat Me Nice" for instance) but no one could play like this.
Pity he didn't do the rhythm guitars on the recordings of the late 60s/70s. If he did, they weren't like this. Maybe he wasn't self-confident enough to play the guitar on the recordings? What he would needed, in my view, is a rhythm guitar player like himself for the concerts (and a drummer, and a bass player, and a pianist ...).
No one sung like him AND no one played like him. This is incredible. Elvis Presley was a genius, FULL STOP (AE: PERIOD). Did any of you youngins even know Elvis!!! He was my best frien, back in the day. We ate macoroni and cheese every Wednesday and Friday. That was his favorite food. He loved it. Well we were bestest buds! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.74.14 ( talk) 19:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans, including his exploration of Mormonism and possible baptism in the Mormon church, which is well documented in articles and even movies ( http://blog.ldspad.com/2007/10/26/elvis-presley-mormon-king-of-rock-and-roll/). It is not not inline with Wikipedia's policies to suppress information like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.142.141 (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
"This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans". It could just as easily be asserted that edits about Mormonism are an attempt to promote said church by including information in high profile articles from sources with vested interests. Neither argument assumes good faith, which is another wiki policy. Rikstar409 01:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)"
->That's a foolish rebuttal. If something is factual, or debately factual, and releveant to the article, it properly belongs in the article. Material doesn't violate Wikipedia policy simply because one cross-segment of the population is interested in it, promotes it, or appreciates it, while another group is disinterested in it, and wants to suppress it. I propose the following statement be prepended to this article on the topic, which statement I think is fair, "Elvis Presley owned a Book of Mormon which he is known to have read, and which is marcated throughout in his own handwriting. The extent, or nature of, his interest in Mormonism is undetermined and debated."
That statement is bias within itself. Elvis was known, through his interviews and related sources, to have not been associated with the Latter Day Saint movement. Your source is a Blog, blogs are not viable sources at all. 74.5.111.155 (talk) 06:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Elvis was affiliated with the Mormon Church and a Book of Mormon with his handwriting expressing belief in the precepts of that church exists. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,650195503,00.html You Elvis fans may not like this fact, but that doesnt' change that it is a fact and should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.147.18 (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.137.146 ( talk)
I've attempted to archive all previous discussions, with exception to the most recent one above. If anyone feels that some of it should be put back then please feel free. Also, as far as I can see, the archive seems to have been a success, but if I've made any mistakes and something needs to be rectified then I'll keep an eye out for any fixes and try to learn from those mistakes. Thanks. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 12:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
These two sections duplicate material regarding how Presley's songs were chosen; any suggestions on editing both and/or merging to keep the basics facts of the topic? Rikstar 409 11:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
to much unnecessary quotes of praise, this is a encyclopedia page not a tribute... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 ( talk) 00:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
With all my respect, I think it's totally unnecessary to use an article on a scottish webpage stating that Elvis sold 300 million records during his lifetime (note 12). This figure is absolutely false; it's a well known fact that at the time of his death Elvis' record sales were over 600 million. You can find too the figure of "more than 500 million" on several sources and that's because they use the data provided by RCA in 1975 (two years before Elvis' death) when the label announced that total Elvis' sales had surpassed the 500 million mark. Two years later, when Elvis died, RCA announced that according with latest reports Elvis' global sales were over 600 million. But 300 million is a false number that in the entire world only appears in this concrete article; I think it's unfair to use it as a valid source to state Elvis' sales.
The same happens with the figure of 300 millions sold from Elvis' death on that appears in the article mentioned in note 13. The only official data you can find everywhere is that Elvis has sold over 1 billion records worlwide, and that announcement was made by RCA in 1981. Since then it was generally used by the media, books, webpages...everywhere; why to pay attention to a wrong figure in a concrete article that collides with the official data? Then, it has no sense to add two false figures to estimate Elvis total sales until now.
Only some sources to back my words (you can easily find many more):
http://www.elvis.com/elvisology/elvis_overview.asp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A702839
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/August/20060816170536BCreklaW0.6157648.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/elvispresley/biography
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1022498420070810
And regarding Elvis' sales until 1975 and until his death (1977):
http://www.superseventies.com/extra_07_8.html (just see the third article)
http://www.whosdatedwho.com/celebrity/biography/elvis-presley.htm
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/15655/The-Elvis-Files/overview
http://sharetv.org/person/elvis_presley
RamiroGaliza ( talk) 21:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- - - -
- - -
I agree. Elvis Presley has sold more than 1 billion years ago, and some suggest he has sold as many as 1,5 billion. According to this biography he has sold more than 1 billion. http://biography.elvis.com.au/
From the official site: http://www.elvis.com/elvisology/bio/elvis_overview.asp "Globally, he has sold over one billion records, more than any other artist. His American sales have earned him gold, platinum or multi-platinum awards for 150 different albums and singles, far more than any other artist."
Everyone, at some point, over the last 12 months has agreed that the article is in desperate need of being shortened. I, and many other editors, have spent time editing it to attempt to bring it more in line with a length that is acceptable but also informative. However, there is no point to that if every time there is a major break-through someone comes along and puts it all back the way it was before. The Ed Sullivan appearance and the Legacy section are perfect examples. I shortened the Ed Sullivan appearance because it was dramatically bloated, but I kept the overall feel of how it read beforehand. Today it is back to practically how it was before with information that just repeats exactly what has already been said in the paragraph above it. There is no need to add quotes, paragraphs or even a few words to an article if it expands it needlessly. Sometimes there is a need for such things, but certainly not the way they've been handled today. The legacy section, also, a part that I spent time altering only to find it put back to how it was previously. What a complete waste of time for me to do that if people don't feel it improves the article. Might I also add that it is a LEGACY section, and therefore it should reflect exactly what it is and so there is no need for it to point out any negativity about the subject in question. Michael Jackson's page is a great example. MJ is a man who had some incredibly negative experiences during his lifetime. Do the editors on that article shy away from them? No, they talk about them in the relevant sections and then show how truly brilliant he was again in his legacy section. Why, then, should Elvis Presley be treated any differently? As the title of this section suggests, there is absolutely no point any of us wasting our time to attempt to shorten this article if our work is simply reverted by people who have no interest in seeing the article be improved. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 08:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I totally disagree. What you are doing now, ElvisFan1981, is whitewashing the article, as you have primarily removed content that includes critical voices about the singer. This is not a fan site. Some weeks ago, another user has written that there are “too much unnecessary quotes of praise, this is an encyclopedia page not a tribute...” See [1]. And there can be no doubt that this user was right, if you now look at the Legacy section whitewashed by ElvisFan. Let us compare the old and new versions. See [2]
This sounds as if it was written for a fan site, as there are no critical voices to be heard, and this is no longer a balanced, encyclopedic view of the singer. Interestingly, more critical, well sourced material written by reputable authors that was part of the old version of the said section has all been removed by ElvisFan1981, for instance,
Removing such critical information is what I would call fan bias. The same kind of whitewash is currently happening concerning other sections of Elvis-related articles. See [3], [4], [5], etc. Let us now analyse some edits by ElvisFan1981 in order to demonstrate his whitewashing tactics that even distort direct quotes (see [6]).
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
ElvisFan totally removed this quote, which was taken from a reputable film journal, presumably because of its critical remarks concerning Presley’s acting.
Further examples could be added. All this is unacceptable. Onefortyone ( talk) 19:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
You're obviously not paying much attention, Onefortyone, and you definitely aren't reading the changes correctly. And your desperate attempts to try and make out that I am a die-hard fan who is attempting to make this article all positive won't work on anyone who has ever actually paid attention to some of the edits I've made in the past. All I've done with the above sections you have mentioned as being "whitewashed", is to remove direct quotes and replace them with original written lines that keep the same balance. It is not my fault if you can't see that or disagree, but I'm sure most other editors would find it acceptable. The main goal for me at the moment is to shorten the article, and if that means removing a few lines or some complete paragrahs then that's what it requires. Not everyone will agree with some of the edits and they have the right to say so, but I think most other editors are aware of the fact that removal of some content, both NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE, is definitely necessary to get this article down to a more manageable size.
As for the Legacy section, I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley (NOTE: For future reference, I use Presley as an example because it is the article currently being discussed, but I believe this for any article that has a Legacy section. It's not bias towards just Elvis Presley.). Seriously, compare it to that of Michael Jackson, a man who most people would agree had a much more negative life than Elvis Presley, and you will see no mention in his Legacy section about child abuse, drug taking, skin whitening, debt, overspending, wacky oxygen tanks. Why? Simply because a Legacy section is usually about the good things that they achieved in life and since their death, not the bad things.
Why you feel the need to so drastically paint Elvis to be some kind of monster is beyond me, and some of your additions have been seriously questioned by editors long before I ever came onto the scene. Also, many of your additions are merely repeats of things that have already been mentioned, one of the main reasons they are removed in the first place. I don't know who has uploaded most of what is on the page, and so I have no way of knowing who is responsible for any negative input, but I'm sure it can't all be your work. So why, then, are you the only one who is complaining about it?
As for the article, I have added my fair share of negative, open-minded, well researched information to the article, and so to claim that I am attempting to make it a fan piece is just ludicrous. Also, a lot of the editing that I've done over the last four months has had hardly any effect on the overall negative opinions within the article because most of the work has been to simply replace long quotes and sentences from books with a paraphrased version so that it isn't seen as just an article full of book quotes. Also, I have removed a number of my own additions, both negative and postive, from the article for the sake of space. However, most of your own additions are the long-winded book quotes that are precisely the reason why this article has gotten and is getting so bloated. If you seriously want to help improve the article and possibly reduce its size, then please be my guest. All the editors are welcome to take part and as a team it can be done. However, if you continue to insert long, boring quotes that only add extra size to the article for no reason, then I, and I'm sure other editors, will have no problem with either reverting it completely or re-writing it in thier own paraphrased hand, something that you could do in the first place to save a lot of hassle. Why not spend your time and efforts trying to reduce the articles size instead of adding all the negativity to it? Maybe after it's at a more reasonable size it will be time to sit down and go over what negative issues should definitely be raised or not. I do note that most of your own efforts are simply adding negative paragraphs from books which I'm sure you are already aware of will get a rise from some editors on here, so perhaps you could take a step back yourself and try to understand why your hatred for Presley is so deep within your soul before you attempt it again. There may be such a thing as being too positive, something I don't believe any editor on this article has been, but there is definitely such a thing as being too negative, something that, so far in my experience, only you have displayed.
I said to you a few months ago that I respected your research and your opinion on the subject, and I still do, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with the way you go about doing things, especially when it chases off a number of very important editors who know so much more about the subject than you or I could ever imagine. Let's work as a team and get this article to the best possible place it can be before we have another editing war and aggro, shall we? A new year is on our doorstep and perhaps 2010 would be the perfect opportunity to start afresh and work together. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 22:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Legacy is something handed down from the past by tradition, and a celebrity’s heritage, as you may also call it, is sometimes good and sometimes bad. “As for the Legacy section”, ElvisFan says above, “I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley.” So much for this user’s recent edits that removed large blocks of more critical information, or, as ElvisFan claims, with an innocent air, his “removal of some content, both NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE.” Onefortyone ( talk) 01:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Legacy is generally the mark or influence left by an event, person etc. on subsequent times, and may be both positive and negative. I'd suggest that anyone making the statement, "As for the Legacy section, I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley", might want to reconsider the accuracy of that remark, although clearly we're not dealing with Adolf_Hitler#Legacy here and in practice the Legacy section may well turn out to be only positive in this case; certainly when I consider the passages whose removal is criticized: “Just before his death, Elvis had been forgotten by society”, that when Presley died, "it was as if all perspective on his musical career was somehow lost," that “latter-day song choices had been seen as poor,” that “many who disliked Presley had long been dismissive because he did not write his own songs,” that “tabloids had ridiculed his obesity and his kitschy, jump-suited performances”, that his “sixties' film career was mocked”, I would have to say that in my opinion none of those things belong in the Legacy section. On a general note, I think the move to reduce the article to a manageable size is a welcome and very necessary one, and one which will indeed make it more possible than it is at present to judge and fine-tune the balance of content. PL290 ( talk) 10:13, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I concur with Rikstar's comments above. It has greatly saddened mean to read ElvisFan1981 decision to leave this article, as this young lady has in the past inspired me many a time to stick with it. I would like to put in a quote by Bob Dylan, which pretty well sums up how I feel,(A Metaphor) when dealing with one particular editor and in saying that I believe he is the only one here, getting any sort of gratification out of all this mess and heartache.
"Maybe in the '90s or possibly in the next century people will look upon the '80s as the age of masturbation, when it was taken to the limit, that might be all-that's going on right now in a big way". Personal Quote by Bob Dylan -- Jaye9 ( talk) 00:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Any individual editor can revert an edit up to three times. At that point, if they continue to revert, they are in violation of the 3 revert rule. Enough of you have stated your opinions on this. I suggest that you "vote" with your edits - to the material in question. I agree with those of you who feel that this material does not belong in this article. I began this discussion with removal of this material from one part of the article. If you can edit the article I suggest you all do the same, in line with your opinions. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
It's exciting to see the King's article get the careful editorial attention it deserves. May I suggest that it's high time the lead infobox image be changed to accord with our best practices: Replace the non-free File:ElvisPresleyAlohafromHawaii.jpg (which already appears in the article's main text), with the no less wonderful, more historic, and free File:Elvis presley.jpg. (And yes, that should be removed from the main text if and when it's placed in the infobox. I'm confident we can locate another public domain image to represent Elvis's acting career.) DocKino ( talk) 05:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just quickly scanning the article, two things leapt out:
(1) The image clutter in "1957–60: Military service and mother's death". I think the photograph of Elvis in uniform among other soldiers is both sufficient and strongest if seen alone. The two additional images of military insignia make the susection very difficult to look at. One of these, at most, is tolerable; neither is necessary--having even two pieces of media in this subsection, when many have none, makes for a very unbalanced presentation.
(2) The "1965: 'The Fab Four' meet 'The King'" subsection is wildly disproportionate in length, and really shouldn't exist as its own subsection at all. Compare the coverage in The Beatles FA of the meeting between the band and Dylan. That encounter, which appears to have had a much greater impact on both parties, is covered in about 40% of the length (and still seems a bit on the long side). The encounter between Presley and The Beatles is interesting anecdotally but negligible historically (his deep influence on them had been registered years earlier). It deserves about two or three sentences in this article that must survey Presley's entire life and career. DocKino ( talk) 21:09, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to note that I changed the subtitle for this subsection to "Focus on movies". During the period covered, twenty-one movies starring Elvis Presley were released. Who would have guessed?!! At the moment, precisely one is mentioned (in passing) in the subsection. Yes, there is a section on Presley's "Acting career", but that is appropriately devoted to post facto critical assessment and cultural weighing. The "History" ball has been dropped (hard) and mangled (especially hard) in this period, as PL290 suggested above. DocKino ( talk) 13:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
In editing just a couple of primary text sections, I've found repeated problems with the citations of online sources, even aside from the fact that almost all of them have been missing necessary publication and authorship information. I'd ask that everyone who is currently going through and improving the article to take the few extra minutes to verify the content and quality of such cites and to format them with one of the standard templates so we know they've been vetted.
To summarize the problems (aside from the overarching one of formatting):
As an additional note, there are those online sources--though they pass the basic hurdles mentioned above--that are of relatively low-quality compared to the many reputable books and respected journal/magazine/newspaper articles (many of which are themselves online) on Presley. These should ultimately be replaced if we ever hope to bring this to Featured Article status.— DocKino ( talk) 06:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm noticing a tendency towards WP:Proseline in the article (on <date>, <x> happened; on <date>, <x> happened...). I suggest editors try to keep an eye out for this when doing any copyediting, so as to incorporate any recasting of the material into a flowing narrative to remove this effect. PL290 ( talk) 21:45, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if the following quote might be useful - a better choice - in this section, regarding Presley's ackowledgement of black music:
"The colored folks been singing it and playing it just like I'm doin' now, man, for more years than I know. They played it like that in the shanties and juke joints and nobody paid it no mind 'til I goose it up. I got it from them. Down in Tupelo, Mississippi, I used to hear old Arthur Crudup bang his box the way I do now, and I said if I ever got to the place I could feel all old Arthur felt, I'd be a music man like nobody ever saw." Charlotte Observer, June 26, 1956 ( Sourced from here, but appears elswhere). Rikstar 409 00:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
This may have already happened but I'd like you to reconsider. There is a paper that was published in a music journal in which the author, who was examining the use of the habanera in rockabilly, states that this Elvis quote is a Red herring (idiom). To me, this is similar to That's alright being pumped up, while in fact "Blue Moon of Kentucky" was the more popular side of the first Elvis release. See the Rockabilly article for more background on how energetic some of the early players of that music is. Rikstar may remember, too, that Elvis says "That sounds like Carl Perkins", who had been palying in a nearby town for years, after a take in an early session. Let me know if you are interested in pursuing this. Steve Pastor ( talk) 17:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Apparently, before the cited quote Elvis spoke about Debra Paget and how SHE was dressed and moved on the Milton Berle Show. Before repeating the above quote, we read in Elvis Everywhere. Robert FInk. American Music. v 16 issue 2. Summer 1998. Page 171. "Of course, Elvis was more than a a little disingenuous; he went on in the same interview to throw the reporter what now looks like one of the biggest red herrings of popular music scholarship:" This is followed by the above quote minus the last up to "I got it from them." Fink goes on for the next 3 pages in the vein of "Such absolute square deliniation of upbeats and downbeats is not at all characteristic of African American rhythm." There's more about where the Elvis version of Hound Dog in particluar came from, but I'll stop for now. Again, musicologist rather than a poplaizer, writes "one of the biggest red herrings of popular music scholarship". Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The lack of anything much about early music influences is a good point; I've amended the Early years section to include stuff about this. Rikstar 11:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone followed up on my request to watch/listen to that section of that DVD. I doubt it. I bring this up to support the fact that Elvis most certainly didn't get "it" only from "the colored folks", and leading with this quote perpetuates the myth that he did. Steve Pastor ( talk)
Since the Phillips quote came up again. Has no one yet listened to the Elvis '56 dvd? The part where they capture the Bill Black inspired verison of Blue Moon on Kentucky, and Elvis can be heard mentioning Carl Perkins? <edited> Steve Pastor 23:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
So, we quote her (already surnamed Presley) rather out of the blue in "1958–60", and then have her marrying Elvis in "1960–67" ("after an eight-year courtship")...but we never have them meeting. Anyone want to lay the groundwork? (She's not in my handy Guralnick Last Train to Memphis.) DocKino ( talk) 11:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Jorgensen, 1998 states: "Felton [Jarvis] had long since accepted the Colonel's edict that no credits be listed on an Elvis album, but Chips Moman found this hard to swallow... to be told he wouldn't be listed as the album's producer [or receive] any producer royalties ... was both insult and injury. ... Chips told them all they could take a flying leap ..." (p.281)
My impression is that Moman was not credited as a producer at the time on the album "From Elvis in Memphis" because he fell out badly with RCA and Parker (but RCA was quick to take every tape they thought had Presley's voice on it from Moman's studio). I don't recall his name or his credit being listed on the LP I had years ago. Can anyone confirm this? Moman may be known now as the album's producer, and duly credited. as in the album's wiki article, but that misses the point of the Moman statement recently deleted. Thanks to anyone who can address this. Rikstar 409 19:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
In answer to your question Rik, was Chips Moman's name or his credit listed on the LP "From Elvis in Memphis"? The answer to that question, is No. Yet, if you look at the Album "Moody Blue" for eg, at the back of that album, is written, Executive Producer: Elvis Presley and Associate Producer: Felton Jarvis. Hope this helps.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 23:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not even certain of what I'm going to mention here, has any significance to what has been dicussed above. But I had a look at 7 Elvis Presley Albums that were re released in the 70's and on the back of each album, the songs have been listed, but the song writers havn't even been given a mention. Yet, you look at other artists from that time, say Jeff Beck and many others, not only are the song writers mentioned, but alot of these albums have the lyrics of each song written out for you. I don't know if I'm going out on a limb here, but unlike today, since Elvis's passing, the packaging has greatly improved, but back then, it was prettly slap dash.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 03:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't mind me Rik, I occassionally think aloud and seem to go with my own trail of thoughts. But as always, your responses are thoughtfull, with no malice attached.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
12:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Rikstar, now that you've said more about the reason for that parenthetical bit's inclusion, I agree it should be reinstated, and not just reinstated but done more justice in a sentence of its own. I'll have a think and try and add something unless others get there first, to make this general point about Parker and RCA's treatment of these contributors, rather than losing it as an adjunct to a particular album release. PL290 ( talk) 12:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
In the 1973-77 section, there's this: During this period, his health declined precipitously as his weight shot up. At a University of Maryland concert on September 27, guitarist John Wilkinson recalled, "He walked on stage and held onto the mike for the first thirty minutes like it was a post. Everybody was scared. ... He was all gut. He was slurring. ... It was obvious he was drugged, that there was something terribly wrong with his body. It was so bad, the words to the songs were barely intelligible. ... We were in a state of shock."
There is a request to confirm the author, book and page reference for this quote, but this can only be seen when the article is in edit mode. It might be worth other people scanning the article in edit mode for anymore similar requests or observations relating to the article's improvement. Rikstar 409 10:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Rik, I don't own a copy of the "Elvis: The Final Years" by Jerry Hopkins(1980). But I'm assuming that the information was taken from the internet, as no page was given and I found a web site pretty quickly, that had that information. It was a cut and paste job taken from an except of the book, by the Rolling Stone Magazine, dated 10/2/80. I do however have a copy of Jerry Hopkins latest book "Elvis The Biograhphy", which have similiar recollections of the same, by Jerry Schilling, of which we can site the page. What do think?--
Jaye9 (
talk)
12:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
According to Guralnick (1999) it was keyboardist Tony Brown. I've updated the passage per Guralnick and added the cite. PL290 ( talk) 12:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
PL290, I just looked back on that article I found on the web, your spot on. Jerry Schilling was standing beside Elvis that was all. Your correct, it was Tony Brown. Excellant work!--
Jaye9 (
talk)
13:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry guys, what am I saying, I ment to say John Wilkinson, not Jerry Schilling, I've should know better not to get on these type of discussions so late in the night, my apology to all.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
15:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
ElvisFan1981, maybe it would be good to include words from both Brown and Wilkinson--it seems there may have been confusion by biographers at some point, if the overlapping words "He walked on stage and held onto the mike for the first thirty minutes like it was a post." are attributed to both (although I suppose these words could have been repeated by any number of parties at different times!). Wilkinson paints a stark picture and I think it will be an improvement if we can add to the end of what's now there, "Guitarist John Wilkinson recalled, "He was slurring ... It was obvious he was drugged, that there was something terribly wrong with his body. It was so bad, the words to the songs were barely intelligible. ... We were in a state of shock." If your source confirms this wording is accurate and you think it will be a plus, perhaps you could add it the article along with the citation details you have. PL290 ( talk) 17:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The following is currently cited four times, all in the "'68 Comeback Special" subsection:
This is obviously unacceptable. While two of the citations are easily replaceable, the other two involve worthwhile data and an excellent quote that I can't locate (verifiably) elsewhere. Does anyone possess this booklet? Can we verify its contents and get complete publication information? If not, it and anything cited exclusively to it will have to go. DocKino ( talk) 13:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi DocKino, Kubernick, The Complete '68 Comeback Special Booklet, came from The Complete '68 Comeback Special, 40th Anniversary release BMG CD review. I have the booklet, or type in Kubernick, The Comlete '68 Comeback Special Booklet and you will find a great review of this booklet on the Elvis Information Network Website.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you ElvisFan1981 for citing those page numbers and I believe that this booklet is a reliable source, as BMG got Kubernick to write the review(booklet) for their 40th Anniversary 4CD release of the '68 Comeback Special. Looking forward to comeback by the way.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
14:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
In the "From Elvis In Memphis and the International" subsection, we currently have six cites of the following:
Does anyone know what this is? If it is Robert Gordon's The King on the Road (which we cite elsewhere), that's not accessible via Google or Amazon. Does anyone happen to have it to provide proper publication information and specific page numbers? DocKino ( talk) 02:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
On August 15, 1955, "Colonel" Tom Parker became Presley's "special adviser" - subsequently we refer to Presley's manager, but so far we have only identified Moore in that role (July 12 1964). We should say Parker became manager, but does anyone have a cite for "special adviser" if that's of particular relevance to state too? PL290 ( talk) 14:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
I have a question which has been occupying me for a long time: Elvis Presely was a good PIANO PLAYER (just listen to the "Million Dollar Quartet", where Elvis plays almost all piano parts and accompanies himself singing.
Everybody knows Elvis played the guitar. But he wasn't a very good guitar player, actually. He could play chords, to accompany his singing, but no more than that.
But his piano capabilities were very good. Not just chords, Elvis really could play the piano very well, no comparison to his guitar playing (which was sufficient for the purpose of course, but Elvis was a good PIANIST).
My question: Why did he play the piano so well (even in 1956), where had he learnt it? And why doesn't anyone seem to notice that Elvis was a good piano player (he is always referred to as a singer - of course - who could also play the guitar. But Elvis wasn't REALLY a guitarist, although he could play chords to sing along to, but he REALLY was a piano player.
It would really be nice if someone could answer these questions:
1. How come Elvis was such a good piano player? Where and how did he learn it?
2. Why is the fact that Elvis was quite a good piano player neglected by all sources?
Thank you for your answer, in advance.
From the "Question Asker" (piano playing):
Thank you for your hint. Just watched "Baby what you want me to do" from the 1968 TV Special. I had known the track, but didn't remember that Elvis was such a good, extraordinary rhythm guitarist. To avoid any misunderstandings: I am speaking of the live-version where Elvis is sitting with other musicians (Scotty Moore, D.J. Fontana etc.) and where he is playing Scotty Moore's semi-acoustic guitar. I am NOT speaking of the version where Elvis stands alone and plays a red semi-acoustic with rather a thin sound (on this latter version, Elvis Presley's guitar playing, again, unluckily is DROWNED by uncoordinated NOISE of other musicians who are no match for him, to say the least).
There is no doubt he was the best rhythm guitar player of his time. This is not an exaggeration by a "deafened and blinded" Elvis fan. In 1968 there was nothing comparable. It would have been much more than just a good idea for Elvis to play the rhythm guitars on his later recordings, too.
Of course this isn't mere chord strumming, it would be an insult to say this. I do apologize for my ignorance (it was just because I didn't know better).
Elvis' rhythm guitar was as outstanding as his singing, a real ROCK rhythm guitar. No one of the well-known guitarist of his time could play like this. This is unbelievable rock rhythm guitar playing. And I'm not saying this because I'm an Elvis fan blinded by passion.
Of course it is no wonder that Elvis wasn't "just" the most amazing singer in the world, as his daughter Lisa Marie put it. A person like this (whereas the formula: a person like this seems to be strange in this respect, because there isn't a person "like" Elvis Presley), i. e. a person with this enormous musical talent of course isn't "just" a singer. The way he sings or plays any instrument reveals his talent. Therefore, his rhythm guitar is outstanding, to say the least.
Elvis was the best rock rhythm guitar player of his time (of course I'm speaking only of the ones who are well-known and published). No doubt about that. To avoid getting this wrong: I'm not saying nobody else could play those notes (just as well as it doesn't take a lot to sing the notes of "Treat Me Nice" for instance) but no one could play like this.
Pity he didn't do the rhythm guitars on the recordings of the late 60s/70s. If he did, they weren't like this. Maybe he wasn't self-confident enough to play the guitar on the recordings? What he would needed, in my view, is a rhythm guitar player like himself for the concerts (and a drummer, and a bass player, and a pianist ...).
No one sung like him AND no one played like him. This is incredible. Elvis Presley was a genius, FULL STOP (AE: PERIOD). Did any of you youngins even know Elvis!!! He was my best frien, back in the day. We ate macoroni and cheese every Wednesday and Friday. That was his favorite food. He loved it. Well we were bestest buds! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.74.14 ( talk) 19:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans, including his exploration of Mormonism and possible baptism in the Mormon church, which is well documented in articles and even movies ( http://blog.ldspad.com/2007/10/26/elvis-presley-mormon-king-of-rock-and-roll/). It is not not inline with Wikipedia's policies to suppress information like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.142.141 (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
"This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans". It could just as easily be asserted that edits about Mormonism are an attempt to promote said church by including information in high profile articles from sources with vested interests. Neither argument assumes good faith, which is another wiki policy. Rikstar409 01:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)"
->That's a foolish rebuttal. If something is factual, or debately factual, and releveant to the article, it properly belongs in the article. Material doesn't violate Wikipedia policy simply because one cross-segment of the population is interested in it, promotes it, or appreciates it, while another group is disinterested in it, and wants to suppress it. I propose the following statement be prepended to this article on the topic, which statement I think is fair, "Elvis Presley owned a Book of Mormon which he is known to have read, and which is marcated throughout in his own handwriting. The extent, or nature of, his interest in Mormonism is undetermined and debated."
That statement is bias within itself. Elvis was known, through his interviews and related sources, to have not been associated with the Latter Day Saint movement. Your source is a Blog, blogs are not viable sources at all. 74.5.111.155 (talk) 06:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Elvis was affiliated with the Mormon Church and a Book of Mormon with his handwriting expressing belief in the precepts of that church exists. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,650195503,00.html You Elvis fans may not like this fact, but that doesnt' change that it is a fact and should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.147.18 (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.137.146 ( talk)
I've attempted to archive all previous discussions, with exception to the most recent one above. If anyone feels that some of it should be put back then please feel free. Also, as far as I can see, the archive seems to have been a success, but if I've made any mistakes and something needs to be rectified then I'll keep an eye out for any fixes and try to learn from those mistakes. Thanks. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 12:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
These two sections duplicate material regarding how Presley's songs were chosen; any suggestions on editing both and/or merging to keep the basics facts of the topic? Rikstar 409 11:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
to much unnecessary quotes of praise, this is a encyclopedia page not a tribute... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 ( talk) 00:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
With all my respect, I think it's totally unnecessary to use an article on a scottish webpage stating that Elvis sold 300 million records during his lifetime (note 12). This figure is absolutely false; it's a well known fact that at the time of his death Elvis' record sales were over 600 million. You can find too the figure of "more than 500 million" on several sources and that's because they use the data provided by RCA in 1975 (two years before Elvis' death) when the label announced that total Elvis' sales had surpassed the 500 million mark. Two years later, when Elvis died, RCA announced that according with latest reports Elvis' global sales were over 600 million. But 300 million is a false number that in the entire world only appears in this concrete article; I think it's unfair to use it as a valid source to state Elvis' sales.
The same happens with the figure of 300 millions sold from Elvis' death on that appears in the article mentioned in note 13. The only official data you can find everywhere is that Elvis has sold over 1 billion records worlwide, and that announcement was made by RCA in 1981. Since then it was generally used by the media, books, webpages...everywhere; why to pay attention to a wrong figure in a concrete article that collides with the official data? Then, it has no sense to add two false figures to estimate Elvis total sales until now.
Only some sources to back my words (you can easily find many more):
http://www.elvis.com/elvisology/elvis_overview.asp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A702839
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/August/20060816170536BCreklaW0.6157648.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/elvispresley/biography
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1022498420070810
And regarding Elvis' sales until 1975 and until his death (1977):
http://www.superseventies.com/extra_07_8.html (just see the third article)
http://www.whosdatedwho.com/celebrity/biography/elvis-presley.htm
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/15655/The-Elvis-Files/overview
http://sharetv.org/person/elvis_presley
RamiroGaliza ( talk) 21:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
- - - -
- - -
I agree. Elvis Presley has sold more than 1 billion years ago, and some suggest he has sold as many as 1,5 billion. According to this biography he has sold more than 1 billion. http://biography.elvis.com.au/
From the official site: http://www.elvis.com/elvisology/bio/elvis_overview.asp "Globally, he has sold over one billion records, more than any other artist. His American sales have earned him gold, platinum or multi-platinum awards for 150 different albums and singles, far more than any other artist."
Everyone, at some point, over the last 12 months has agreed that the article is in desperate need of being shortened. I, and many other editors, have spent time editing it to attempt to bring it more in line with a length that is acceptable but also informative. However, there is no point to that if every time there is a major break-through someone comes along and puts it all back the way it was before. The Ed Sullivan appearance and the Legacy section are perfect examples. I shortened the Ed Sullivan appearance because it was dramatically bloated, but I kept the overall feel of how it read beforehand. Today it is back to practically how it was before with information that just repeats exactly what has already been said in the paragraph above it. There is no need to add quotes, paragraphs or even a few words to an article if it expands it needlessly. Sometimes there is a need for such things, but certainly not the way they've been handled today. The legacy section, also, a part that I spent time altering only to find it put back to how it was previously. What a complete waste of time for me to do that if people don't feel it improves the article. Might I also add that it is a LEGACY section, and therefore it should reflect exactly what it is and so there is no need for it to point out any negativity about the subject in question. Michael Jackson's page is a great example. MJ is a man who had some incredibly negative experiences during his lifetime. Do the editors on that article shy away from them? No, they talk about them in the relevant sections and then show how truly brilliant he was again in his legacy section. Why, then, should Elvis Presley be treated any differently? As the title of this section suggests, there is absolutely no point any of us wasting our time to attempt to shorten this article if our work is simply reverted by people who have no interest in seeing the article be improved. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 08:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I totally disagree. What you are doing now, ElvisFan1981, is whitewashing the article, as you have primarily removed content that includes critical voices about the singer. This is not a fan site. Some weeks ago, another user has written that there are “too much unnecessary quotes of praise, this is an encyclopedia page not a tribute...” See [1]. And there can be no doubt that this user was right, if you now look at the Legacy section whitewashed by ElvisFan. Let us compare the old and new versions. See [2]
This sounds as if it was written for a fan site, as there are no critical voices to be heard, and this is no longer a balanced, encyclopedic view of the singer. Interestingly, more critical, well sourced material written by reputable authors that was part of the old version of the said section has all been removed by ElvisFan1981, for instance,
Removing such critical information is what I would call fan bias. The same kind of whitewash is currently happening concerning other sections of Elvis-related articles. See [3], [4], [5], etc. Let us now analyse some edits by ElvisFan1981 in order to demonstrate his whitewashing tactics that even distort direct quotes (see [6]).
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
Version by ElvisFan:
Previous version:
ElvisFan totally removed this quote, which was taken from a reputable film journal, presumably because of its critical remarks concerning Presley’s acting.
Further examples could be added. All this is unacceptable. Onefortyone ( talk) 19:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
You're obviously not paying much attention, Onefortyone, and you definitely aren't reading the changes correctly. And your desperate attempts to try and make out that I am a die-hard fan who is attempting to make this article all positive won't work on anyone who has ever actually paid attention to some of the edits I've made in the past. All I've done with the above sections you have mentioned as being "whitewashed", is to remove direct quotes and replace them with original written lines that keep the same balance. It is not my fault if you can't see that or disagree, but I'm sure most other editors would find it acceptable. The main goal for me at the moment is to shorten the article, and if that means removing a few lines or some complete paragrahs then that's what it requires. Not everyone will agree with some of the edits and they have the right to say so, but I think most other editors are aware of the fact that removal of some content, both NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE, is definitely necessary to get this article down to a more manageable size.
As for the Legacy section, I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley (NOTE: For future reference, I use Presley as an example because it is the article currently being discussed, but I believe this for any article that has a Legacy section. It's not bias towards just Elvis Presley.). Seriously, compare it to that of Michael Jackson, a man who most people would agree had a much more negative life than Elvis Presley, and you will see no mention in his Legacy section about child abuse, drug taking, skin whitening, debt, overspending, wacky oxygen tanks. Why? Simply because a Legacy section is usually about the good things that they achieved in life and since their death, not the bad things.
Why you feel the need to so drastically paint Elvis to be some kind of monster is beyond me, and some of your additions have been seriously questioned by editors long before I ever came onto the scene. Also, many of your additions are merely repeats of things that have already been mentioned, one of the main reasons they are removed in the first place. I don't know who has uploaded most of what is on the page, and so I have no way of knowing who is responsible for any negative input, but I'm sure it can't all be your work. So why, then, are you the only one who is complaining about it?
As for the article, I have added my fair share of negative, open-minded, well researched information to the article, and so to claim that I am attempting to make it a fan piece is just ludicrous. Also, a lot of the editing that I've done over the last four months has had hardly any effect on the overall negative opinions within the article because most of the work has been to simply replace long quotes and sentences from books with a paraphrased version so that it isn't seen as just an article full of book quotes. Also, I have removed a number of my own additions, both negative and postive, from the article for the sake of space. However, most of your own additions are the long-winded book quotes that are precisely the reason why this article has gotten and is getting so bloated. If you seriously want to help improve the article and possibly reduce its size, then please be my guest. All the editors are welcome to take part and as a team it can be done. However, if you continue to insert long, boring quotes that only add extra size to the article for no reason, then I, and I'm sure other editors, will have no problem with either reverting it completely or re-writing it in thier own paraphrased hand, something that you could do in the first place to save a lot of hassle. Why not spend your time and efforts trying to reduce the articles size instead of adding all the negativity to it? Maybe after it's at a more reasonable size it will be time to sit down and go over what negative issues should definitely be raised or not. I do note that most of your own efforts are simply adding negative paragraphs from books which I'm sure you are already aware of will get a rise from some editors on here, so perhaps you could take a step back yourself and try to understand why your hatred for Presley is so deep within your soul before you attempt it again. There may be such a thing as being too positive, something I don't believe any editor on this article has been, but there is definitely such a thing as being too negative, something that, so far in my experience, only you have displayed.
I said to you a few months ago that I respected your research and your opinion on the subject, and I still do, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with the way you go about doing things, especially when it chases off a number of very important editors who know so much more about the subject than you or I could ever imagine. Let's work as a team and get this article to the best possible place it can be before we have another editing war and aggro, shall we? A new year is on our doorstep and perhaps 2010 would be the perfect opportunity to start afresh and work together. ElvisFan1981 ( talk) 22:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Legacy is something handed down from the past by tradition, and a celebrity’s heritage, as you may also call it, is sometimes good and sometimes bad. “As for the Legacy section”, ElvisFan says above, “I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley.” So much for this user’s recent edits that removed large blocks of more critical information, or, as ElvisFan claims, with an innocent air, his “removal of some content, both NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE.” Onefortyone ( talk) 01:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Legacy is generally the mark or influence left by an event, person etc. on subsequent times, and may be both positive and negative. I'd suggest that anyone making the statement, "As for the Legacy section, I cannot and will not accept that it should ever mention anything negative about Presley", might want to reconsider the accuracy of that remark, although clearly we're not dealing with Adolf_Hitler#Legacy here and in practice the Legacy section may well turn out to be only positive in this case; certainly when I consider the passages whose removal is criticized: “Just before his death, Elvis had been forgotten by society”, that when Presley died, "it was as if all perspective on his musical career was somehow lost," that “latter-day song choices had been seen as poor,” that “many who disliked Presley had long been dismissive because he did not write his own songs,” that “tabloids had ridiculed his obesity and his kitschy, jump-suited performances”, that his “sixties' film career was mocked”, I would have to say that in my opinion none of those things belong in the Legacy section. On a general note, I think the move to reduce the article to a manageable size is a welcome and very necessary one, and one which will indeed make it more possible than it is at present to judge and fine-tune the balance of content. PL290 ( talk) 10:13, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I concur with Rikstar's comments above. It has greatly saddened mean to read ElvisFan1981 decision to leave this article, as this young lady has in the past inspired me many a time to stick with it. I would like to put in a quote by Bob Dylan, which pretty well sums up how I feel,(A Metaphor) when dealing with one particular editor and in saying that I believe he is the only one here, getting any sort of gratification out of all this mess and heartache.
"Maybe in the '90s or possibly in the next century people will look upon the '80s as the age of masturbation, when it was taken to the limit, that might be all-that's going on right now in a big way". Personal Quote by Bob Dylan -- Jaye9 ( talk) 00:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Any individual editor can revert an edit up to three times. At that point, if they continue to revert, they are in violation of the 3 revert rule. Enough of you have stated your opinions on this. I suggest that you "vote" with your edits - to the material in question. I agree with those of you who feel that this material does not belong in this article. I began this discussion with removal of this material from one part of the article. If you can edit the article I suggest you all do the same, in line with your opinions. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
It's exciting to see the King's article get the careful editorial attention it deserves. May I suggest that it's high time the lead infobox image be changed to accord with our best practices: Replace the non-free File:ElvisPresleyAlohafromHawaii.jpg (which already appears in the article's main text), with the no less wonderful, more historic, and free File:Elvis presley.jpg. (And yes, that should be removed from the main text if and when it's placed in the infobox. I'm confident we can locate another public domain image to represent Elvis's acting career.) DocKino ( talk) 05:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just quickly scanning the article, two things leapt out:
(1) The image clutter in "1957–60: Military service and mother's death". I think the photograph of Elvis in uniform among other soldiers is both sufficient and strongest if seen alone. The two additional images of military insignia make the susection very difficult to look at. One of these, at most, is tolerable; neither is necessary--having even two pieces of media in this subsection, when many have none, makes for a very unbalanced presentation.
(2) The "1965: 'The Fab Four' meet 'The King'" subsection is wildly disproportionate in length, and really shouldn't exist as its own subsection at all. Compare the coverage in The Beatles FA of the meeting between the band and Dylan. That encounter, which appears to have had a much greater impact on both parties, is covered in about 40% of the length (and still seems a bit on the long side). The encounter between Presley and The Beatles is interesting anecdotally but negligible historically (his deep influence on them had been registered years earlier). It deserves about two or three sentences in this article that must survey Presley's entire life and career. DocKino ( talk) 21:09, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to note that I changed the subtitle for this subsection to "Focus on movies". During the period covered, twenty-one movies starring Elvis Presley were released. Who would have guessed?!! At the moment, precisely one is mentioned (in passing) in the subsection. Yes, there is a section on Presley's "Acting career", but that is appropriately devoted to post facto critical assessment and cultural weighing. The "History" ball has been dropped (hard) and mangled (especially hard) in this period, as PL290 suggested above. DocKino ( talk) 13:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
In editing just a couple of primary text sections, I've found repeated problems with the citations of online sources, even aside from the fact that almost all of them have been missing necessary publication and authorship information. I'd ask that everyone who is currently going through and improving the article to take the few extra minutes to verify the content and quality of such cites and to format them with one of the standard templates so we know they've been vetted.
To summarize the problems (aside from the overarching one of formatting):
As an additional note, there are those online sources--though they pass the basic hurdles mentioned above--that are of relatively low-quality compared to the many reputable books and respected journal/magazine/newspaper articles (many of which are themselves online) on Presley. These should ultimately be replaced if we ever hope to bring this to Featured Article status.— DocKino ( talk) 06:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm noticing a tendency towards WP:Proseline in the article (on <date>, <x> happened; on <date>, <x> happened...). I suggest editors try to keep an eye out for this when doing any copyediting, so as to incorporate any recasting of the material into a flowing narrative to remove this effect. PL290 ( talk) 21:45, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if the following quote might be useful - a better choice - in this section, regarding Presley's ackowledgement of black music:
"The colored folks been singing it and playing it just like I'm doin' now, man, for more years than I know. They played it like that in the shanties and juke joints and nobody paid it no mind 'til I goose it up. I got it from them. Down in Tupelo, Mississippi, I used to hear old Arthur Crudup bang his box the way I do now, and I said if I ever got to the place I could feel all old Arthur felt, I'd be a music man like nobody ever saw." Charlotte Observer, June 26, 1956 ( Sourced from here, but appears elswhere). Rikstar 409 00:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
This may have already happened but I'd like you to reconsider. There is a paper that was published in a music journal in which the author, who was examining the use of the habanera in rockabilly, states that this Elvis quote is a Red herring (idiom). To me, this is similar to That's alright being pumped up, while in fact "Blue Moon of Kentucky" was the more popular side of the first Elvis release. See the Rockabilly article for more background on how energetic some of the early players of that music is. Rikstar may remember, too, that Elvis says "That sounds like Carl Perkins", who had been palying in a nearby town for years, after a take in an early session. Let me know if you are interested in pursuing this. Steve Pastor ( talk) 17:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Apparently, before the cited quote Elvis spoke about Debra Paget and how SHE was dressed and moved on the Milton Berle Show. Before repeating the above quote, we read in Elvis Everywhere. Robert FInk. American Music. v 16 issue 2. Summer 1998. Page 171. "Of course, Elvis was more than a a little disingenuous; he went on in the same interview to throw the reporter what now looks like one of the biggest red herrings of popular music scholarship:" This is followed by the above quote minus the last up to "I got it from them." Fink goes on for the next 3 pages in the vein of "Such absolute square deliniation of upbeats and downbeats is not at all characteristic of African American rhythm." There's more about where the Elvis version of Hound Dog in particluar came from, but I'll stop for now. Again, musicologist rather than a poplaizer, writes "one of the biggest red herrings of popular music scholarship". Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The lack of anything much about early music influences is a good point; I've amended the Early years section to include stuff about this. Rikstar 11:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone followed up on my request to watch/listen to that section of that DVD. I doubt it. I bring this up to support the fact that Elvis most certainly didn't get "it" only from "the colored folks", and leading with this quote perpetuates the myth that he did. Steve Pastor ( talk)
Since the Phillips quote came up again. Has no one yet listened to the Elvis '56 dvd? The part where they capture the Bill Black inspired verison of Blue Moon on Kentucky, and Elvis can be heard mentioning Carl Perkins? <edited> Steve Pastor 23:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Steve Pastor ( talk) 21:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
So, we quote her (already surnamed Presley) rather out of the blue in "1958–60", and then have her marrying Elvis in "1960–67" ("after an eight-year courtship")...but we never have them meeting. Anyone want to lay the groundwork? (She's not in my handy Guralnick Last Train to Memphis.) DocKino ( talk) 11:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Jorgensen, 1998 states: "Felton [Jarvis] had long since accepted the Colonel's edict that no credits be listed on an Elvis album, but Chips Moman found this hard to swallow... to be told he wouldn't be listed as the album's producer [or receive] any producer royalties ... was both insult and injury. ... Chips told them all they could take a flying leap ..." (p.281)
My impression is that Moman was not credited as a producer at the time on the album "From Elvis in Memphis" because he fell out badly with RCA and Parker (but RCA was quick to take every tape they thought had Presley's voice on it from Moman's studio). I don't recall his name or his credit being listed on the LP I had years ago. Can anyone confirm this? Moman may be known now as the album's producer, and duly credited. as in the album's wiki article, but that misses the point of the Moman statement recently deleted. Thanks to anyone who can address this. Rikstar 409 19:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
In answer to your question Rik, was Chips Moman's name or his credit listed on the LP "From Elvis in Memphis"? The answer to that question, is No. Yet, if you look at the Album "Moody Blue" for eg, at the back of that album, is written, Executive Producer: Elvis Presley and Associate Producer: Felton Jarvis. Hope this helps.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 23:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not even certain of what I'm going to mention here, has any significance to what has been dicussed above. But I had a look at 7 Elvis Presley Albums that were re released in the 70's and on the back of each album, the songs have been listed, but the song writers havn't even been given a mention. Yet, you look at other artists from that time, say Jeff Beck and many others, not only are the song writers mentioned, but alot of these albums have the lyrics of each song written out for you. I don't know if I'm going out on a limb here, but unlike today, since Elvis's passing, the packaging has greatly improved, but back then, it was prettly slap dash.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 03:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't mind me Rik, I occassionally think aloud and seem to go with my own trail of thoughts. But as always, your responses are thoughtfull, with no malice attached.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
12:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Rikstar, now that you've said more about the reason for that parenthetical bit's inclusion, I agree it should be reinstated, and not just reinstated but done more justice in a sentence of its own. I'll have a think and try and add something unless others get there first, to make this general point about Parker and RCA's treatment of these contributors, rather than losing it as an adjunct to a particular album release. PL290 ( talk) 12:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
In the 1973-77 section, there's this: During this period, his health declined precipitously as his weight shot up. At a University of Maryland concert on September 27, guitarist John Wilkinson recalled, "He walked on stage and held onto the mike for the first thirty minutes like it was a post. Everybody was scared. ... He was all gut. He was slurring. ... It was obvious he was drugged, that there was something terribly wrong with his body. It was so bad, the words to the songs were barely intelligible. ... We were in a state of shock."
There is a request to confirm the author, book and page reference for this quote, but this can only be seen when the article is in edit mode. It might be worth other people scanning the article in edit mode for anymore similar requests or observations relating to the article's improvement. Rikstar 409 10:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Rik, I don't own a copy of the "Elvis: The Final Years" by Jerry Hopkins(1980). But I'm assuming that the information was taken from the internet, as no page was given and I found a web site pretty quickly, that had that information. It was a cut and paste job taken from an except of the book, by the Rolling Stone Magazine, dated 10/2/80. I do however have a copy of Jerry Hopkins latest book "Elvis The Biograhphy", which have similiar recollections of the same, by Jerry Schilling, of which we can site the page. What do think?--
Jaye9 (
talk)
12:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
According to Guralnick (1999) it was keyboardist Tony Brown. I've updated the passage per Guralnick and added the cite. PL290 ( talk) 12:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
PL290, I just looked back on that article I found on the web, your spot on. Jerry Schilling was standing beside Elvis that was all. Your correct, it was Tony Brown. Excellant work!--
Jaye9 (
talk)
13:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry guys, what am I saying, I ment to say John Wilkinson, not Jerry Schilling, I've should know better not to get on these type of discussions so late in the night, my apology to all.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
15:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
ElvisFan1981, maybe it would be good to include words from both Brown and Wilkinson--it seems there may have been confusion by biographers at some point, if the overlapping words "He walked on stage and held onto the mike for the first thirty minutes like it was a post." are attributed to both (although I suppose these words could have been repeated by any number of parties at different times!). Wilkinson paints a stark picture and I think it will be an improvement if we can add to the end of what's now there, "Guitarist John Wilkinson recalled, "He was slurring ... It was obvious he was drugged, that there was something terribly wrong with his body. It was so bad, the words to the songs were barely intelligible. ... We were in a state of shock." If your source confirms this wording is accurate and you think it will be a plus, perhaps you could add it the article along with the citation details you have. PL290 ( talk) 17:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The following is currently cited four times, all in the "'68 Comeback Special" subsection:
This is obviously unacceptable. While two of the citations are easily replaceable, the other two involve worthwhile data and an excellent quote that I can't locate (verifiably) elsewhere. Does anyone possess this booklet? Can we verify its contents and get complete publication information? If not, it and anything cited exclusively to it will have to go. DocKino ( talk) 13:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi DocKino, Kubernick, The Complete '68 Comeback Special Booklet, came from The Complete '68 Comeback Special, 40th Anniversary release BMG CD review. I have the booklet, or type in Kubernick, The Comlete '68 Comeback Special Booklet and you will find a great review of this booklet on the Elvis Information Network Website.-- Jaye9 ( talk) 13:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you ElvisFan1981 for citing those page numbers and I believe that this booklet is a reliable source, as BMG got Kubernick to write the review(booklet) for their 40th Anniversary 4CD release of the '68 Comeback Special. Looking forward to comeback by the way.--
Jaye9 (
talk)
14:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
In the "From Elvis In Memphis and the International" subsection, we currently have six cites of the following:
Does anyone know what this is? If it is Robert Gordon's The King on the Road (which we cite elsewhere), that's not accessible via Google or Amazon. Does anyone happen to have it to provide proper publication information and specific page numbers? DocKino ( talk) 02:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
On August 15, 1955, "Colonel" Tom Parker became Presley's "special adviser" - subsequently we refer to Presley's manager, but so far we have only identified Moore in that role (July 12 1964). We should say Parker became manager, but does anyone have a cite for "special adviser" if that's of particular relevance to state too? PL290 ( talk) 14:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)